Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Mike Sweeney on December 12, 2012, 08:19:23 PM
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The now infrequent poster know as Pete Buczkowski and yours truly will be playing the Doak/Blue course at Streamsong on December 23rd, Sunday at 9:05 AM. I have not played that many Doak courses, so here we go:
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9FnaT_DMdp8/T0GWY0Pdk0I/AAAAAAAAAIk/Z2XL2i1TjuU/s640/Streamsong_R16_HDR+-+Crenshaw.jpg)
If anyone would like to play, please let me know via IM or email.
Perhaps we can get Kyle Harris to join the group or have a drink afterward .....
Cheers.
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I will be there and working when you tee off.
P.S. that is a photo of Red 16. You'll get a similar view from Blue 8's tee.
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My group of 8 booked for March 10-13. Please replace your divots!
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My group of 8 booked for March 10-13. Please replace your divots!
Our group of 16 departing March 10 will be sure to do the same.
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I'm looking was looking at playing Dec 19 or 20, but the web site says they're not taking tee times until Dec 26. Oh well, maybe mid January.
Are you guys staying on site or doing a day trip. The price to stay and play seems pretty egregious to me at $471. The day play package at $399 is also difficult to swallow. I'll probably try to play it, but even just a green fee of $175 is pretty steep. No obvious twilight rates or replay rates either. Does your "Christmas Special" include a special price?
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I'm looking was looking at playing Dec 19 or 20, but the web site says they're not taking tee times until Dec 26. Oh well, maybe mid January.
Are you guys staying on site or doing a day trip. The price to stay and play seems pretty egregious to me at $471. The day play package at $399 is also difficult to swallow. I'll probably try to play it, but even just a green fee of $175 is pretty steep. No obvious twilight rates or replay rates either. Does your "Christmas Special" include a special price?
Bryan,
The website let us in despite what it says.
Just playing for the day rate for 18 and coming down from Disney in the AM.
Kyle Harris confirmed for lunch afterward.
Cheers.
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Mike,
Very interested to hear your thoughts. Enjoy. I'll be the jealous grinch bogarting the 90 proof homemade egg nog in the cold, dark, depressing hinterlands...
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Ill be there playing on 12/22, 12/23, and 12/29.
As a Polk County, FL native now working in China im very excited!!
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The Golf –
I was skeptical of the Streamsong complex from the initial announcement. I have always been a fan of World Woods PB and Mountain Lake, which both sit on a sand belt and are fairly underrated due to the Florida bias of GCA. It certainly is not natural, but the mining site provided enough initial drama and then the architects move A LOT of dirt on certain holes to make the Streamsong site work really well.
Anyone who calls these courses a minimalist study really does not look past the press releases or the surrounding terrain. This place moved LOTS of SAND to make this site work. I have no exact idea how much was the mining company and how much were the golf architects but this is NOT a Sand Hills site where dirt was moved with beach pales. That said, it reminds you of a combination of Nebraska and Ireland in spots. Some extreme drama, some rolling terrain, firm conditions and some really fun shots and terrain.
• The Doak – If you had told me that Tom Doak would build a 7200 par 72 course where the first tee he makes you walk up a steep slope to catch a high dramatic view, I would think Tom Fazio. Then on hole number 7 Tom Doak makes you walk across a bridge and back for the drama of playing across a LAKE ala TPC #17, I would think Pete Dye. Finally, on hole number 18, he finishes with a hole down in a valley similar to Stonewall Old, I would think old Tom Doak trying to make a statement. It all works as the first seven holes are simply a blast to play. It gets a little quiet for a while (see #11, a long slog of a par 4 and #13, a short 4 with no ability to hit driver for a regular guy to hit driver) and then it builds to a stunning finish. I loved the course and it easily went to #1 in Florida for me over Mountain Lake, Calusa Pines, World Woods PB and TPC Sawgrass. I have not played Seminole. Doak 8.
• The C&C – Kyle Harris was able to give us a very thorough tour as we did not want to rush a round here for a second round after a small frost delay. The first five or six holes here are visually intimidating as seen in recent pictures. However it is wide and it is playable for sure. It is probably the harder (for me) course off the tee and the greens are gentler. I hope to get back there later in the week. It appears to be the hardest C&C course that I have seen.
The Clubhouse –
I did not like the look of the clubhouse from the website, but I really liked it on the ground. It sits in a hole surrounded by some of the most dramatic dunes and the lake, and it works. There were still some kinks in the logistics around the clubhouse as it was Day 3 but they will get worked out over time. We did not see the 12 rooms upstairs but they should be nice. Lunch afterward was very nice. The logistics from practice area to first tees are slightly awkward, but part of that was the newness.
The Location –
It was 70 minutes from Disney to the front gate, no traffic and with Pete driving who knew the right roads to get around Lakeland. It is as quiet as any course in Nebraska. The vistas are stunning. There are not the long long vistas that you see at Nebraska, but it is not Florida golf in any manner or form.
The Conditioning –
Very firm, the greens were fantastic. Sure they will have some issues to deal with in the summer and today may have been the best conditioning day ever but it was all the stuff we talk about around here.
The Lodge –
Probably a mile from the clubhouse, it is 220 rooms so this is a big question. Today the course and complex have an intimate feel. Will it have the same feel when they open 220 rooms and have multiple shuttles from Lodge to Clubhouse?
The Economics –
Clearly they have priced themselves to create a unique experience for golf on the East Coast. How it works out nobody can really predict. It is a big upfront cost with a decent sized maintenance so I personally do not want to see it follow the path of Deltona and Sugarloaf (currently closed) to $20-30 rounds. It needs money to stay at this level and the courses deserve a higher price point.
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Mike,
I think #11 is an exceptional golf hole. Almost unbelievable how great a hole was found/designed on flat but rolling land. Slog is the opposite of my impression.
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8. One of the very best courses in its region (although there are more 8s in some places, and none in others), and worth a special trip to see. Could have some drawbacks, but these will clearly be spelled out, and it will make up for them with something really special in addition to the generally excellent layout.
Mike,
I think #11 is an exceptional golf hole. Almost unbelievable how great a hole was found/designed on flat but rolling land. Slog is the opposite of my impression.
Mark,
I must say that you focused on one one or two flaws that I pointed out for the simple purpose of keeping Doak a little bit humble around here. ;)
Tom made the green too hard to compensate for the flat terrain. Today was a back pin on that green and it is too difficult to get back there after a long hole, imo. No strategy off the tee, no strategy into the green other than keep it short. One hole has to be the "worst" on any course and this was second worst for me.
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Mike, I think 2 is the worst (least interesting) hole on the course. To me, 11 and 13 aren't in the discussion :)
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My group of 8 booked for March 10-13. Please replace your divots!
Bill,
My son and I might be there on those dates
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8. One of the very best courses in its region (although there are more 8s in some places, and none in others), and worth a special trip to see. Could have some drawbacks, but these will clearly be spelled out, and it will make up for them with something really special in addition to the generally excellent layout.
Mike,
I think #11 is an exceptional golf hole. Almost unbelievable how great a hole was found/designed on flat but rolling land. Slog is the opposite of my impression.
Mark,
I must say that you focused on one one or two flaws that I pointed out for the simple purpose of keeping Doak a little bit humble around here. ;)
Tom made the green too hard to compensate for the flat terrain. Today was a back pin on that green and it is too difficult to get back there after a long hole, imo. No strategy off the tee, no strategy into the green other than keep it short. One hole has to be the "worst" on any course and this was second worst for me.
Great review. Thanks!
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Please replace your divots!
Bill,
Sorry about the divots. :D
We carried our own bags and with this turf, you have to sand as divots explode and this turf does not grow back like up North. As an old caddie we felt guilty not repairing divots but as we played 5-6 holes with the Asst Greenkeeper, this is expected. Sand is on carts and I would assume pull carts. Not sure if caddies will carry sand.
Sounds like 30 people on the maintenance staff.
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Mike:
It was obvious given the terrain that #11 would never be one of people's favorite holes on the course, but I like how it turned out. It's just a tough four. You're rewarded for hitting two solid shots to get up around the green ... every yard further short of the green you fall, the harder it gets to get your third shot close.
Of course, it's only your second-least-favorite hole on the course. Your least favorite is the one that Ben Crenshaw told me was his favorite hole on the Blue.
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Your least favorite is the one that Ben Crenshaw told me was his favorite hole on the Blue.
Who was answering? Ben Crenshaw the golfer or Ben Crenshaw the architect?
I am wild off the tee so throw me out of the equation. Pete is pretty straight off the tee with a nice draw. First time it rarely makes sense to go for any short 4, but we just could not see how the regular guy golfer can hit the green from the tee. We played 6700+ Black tees.
Both of us could probably get it there from the Black tee, but I just don't see how the percentages would work out for any mid-handicappers.
Take it easy, it is one man's opinion and I said it was favorite course in Florida. :D
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My group of 8 booked for March 10-13. Please replace your divots!
Bill,
My son and I might be there on those dates
I'll be there with a group playing March 11, 12, and 13 as well.
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Take it easy, it is one man's opinion and I said it was favorite course in Florida. :D
Just pointing out that there was a difference of opinion about the hole. I understand everyone is out to find the weakest link; it's just fun when they can't agree. Your overall assessment is exactly the target we've all been shooting at ... to build the two best courses in Florida, apart from Seminole which is just a myth to most people anyway. ;)
You are right that for many golfers it's a low-percentage shot to go for the green at #13, and especially someone who favors a draw. The majority of golfers can never realistically drive the green on a par-4, or get home on a par-5 in two. But at 290 yards, I suspect many golfers will be tempted to hit driver anyway to try and get close, especially if their natural shot is left-to-right.
I think Ben's comment about #13 was more from the perspective of an architect. [He hasn't played either course yet, as far as I know.] He loves the short par-4's. And he knows what we started with on 13 -- it was a difficult hole to build.
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Mike and I had a great day battling it out on the Doak course. My favorite part of the course is the amount of versatility built into the design. With varying wind strengths in the winter/spring and the wildly undulating greens, it will play very different from day to day. For instance #2 had a fairly benign middle right hole location yesterday, one could say it doesn't hold a lot of interest. ;) But with a front left hole location, there is a big advantage to being left of the green with your second shot, or that pitch will really get your attention. It was my second favorite 5 behind the 17th. Thought the stretch from 4-7 was the best on the course, which clearly labels me as a sucker for short shots that require deft placement.
I'm a bigger fan of #13 than Mike. I tried to hit a 5-iron up the right side, slightly tugged it and it rolled down to the left fairway. The pitch from the left looks very intimidating, however with the bunker only touching the front of the ~50 yard deep green, it's not that difficult without wind. With a helping wind I'm sure it's much more challenging.
I share Mike's sentiment that #11 was my least favorite on the course, which probably says more about my ability than the hole itself as I am rarely reaching a slightly uphill 454 yard par 4. The green was a bit too much after such a long second shot.
All in all an incredibly enjoyable day. I went around with a single ball which I promptly dumped in the water on the bye hole. As a local I look forward to playing a couple times a year across different weather conditions. Thanks again to Kyle for showing us around the C&C after lunch.
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All in all an incredibly enjoyable day. I went around with a single ball which I promptly dumped in the water on the bye hole.
:) That's better than being called the #1 course in Florida.
I share Mike's sentiment that #11 was my least favorite on the course, which probably says more about my ability than the hole itself as I am rarely reaching a slightly uphill 454 yard par 4. The green was a bit too much after such a long second shot.
I understand this will be a common reaction, particularly as it is also the flattest hole on the course. But "the green was a bit too much" is the whole point of that hole. To make a four there, you either need to hit two excellent shots, or two solid shots followed by a good chip, or two decent shots followed by a great pitch. Can you guys understand that perspective? Were you playing a match, and how did it play out in the match?
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The dreaded long, tough par 4 1/2. Carding a four on one of these bad boys, which usually involves a very tidy up and down for mortals like myself, can be more satisfying than most birdies.
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All in all an incredibly enjoyable day. I went around with a single ball which I promptly dumped in the water on the bye hole.
:) That's better than being called the #1 course in Florida.
I share Mike's sentiment that #11 was my least favorite on the course, which probably says more about my ability than the hole itself as I am rarely reaching a slightly uphill 454 yard par 4. The green was a bit too much after such a long second shot.
I understand this will be a common reaction, particularly as it is also the flattest hole on the course. But "the green was a bit too much" is the whole point of that hole. To make a four there, you either need to hit two excellent shots, or two solid shots followed by a good chip, or two decent shots followed by a great pitch. Can you guys understand that perspective? Were you playing a match, and how did it play out in the match?
Tom, let me offer a different point of view. I thought the 11th hole was tremendous and it was there that I really started to fall in love with the Blue. It is hard to describe, but the blindness of the tee shot, the pair of small centreline bunkers on an expansive fairway, the sunken and wild green and especially the gentle rolls in the fairway (which reminded me of waves in an ocean) they all combined to make a subtle elegance. I know that dirt/sand was moved everywhere, but this hole had a tremendous sense of place. It felt like a hole that was meant to be there. It is a lesson in restraint.
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All in all an incredibly enjoyable day. I went around with a single ball which I promptly dumped in the water on the bye hole.
:) That's better than being called the #1 course in Florida.
I share Mike's sentiment that #11 was my least favorite on the course, which probably says more about my ability than the hole itself as I am rarely reaching a slightly uphill 454 yard par 4. The green was a bit too much after such a long second shot.
I understand this will be a common reaction, particularly as it is also the flattest hole on the course. But "the green was a bit too much" is the whole point of that hole. To make a four there, you either need to hit two excellent shots, or two solid shots followed by a good chip, or two decent shots followed by a great pitch. Can you guys understand that perspective? Were you playing a match, and how did it play out in the match?
Hi Tom - we certainly understand the perspective, its a very demanding par 4 that requires big hits and an exqusiute short game to make 4. Both Mike and I were outmatched which is likely why its our least favorite. We were playing a match, both hit it within 20 yards of the green and I believe halved in 5s. It basically played like a par 5, and frankly 4 in a round is enough for me. ;) But that is exactly why everyone has different favorite and least favorite holes...recreational golfers tend to like holes that challenge them appropriately for their skill level but don't bust them over the head.
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It basically played like a par 5, and frankly 4 in a round is enough for me. ;)
That's fair. To be honest, it's so rare for me to build a course with four par-5 holes, I hadn't thought of it that way. I don't know what got into me at Streamsong. The client never really cared much about how many par-5's we had, although they did care about the total length and it's hard to get up there with fewer par-5's.
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That's fair. To be honest, it's so rare for me to build a course with four par-5 holes, I hadn't thought of it that way. I don't know what got into me at Streamsong. The client never really cared much about how many par-5's we had, although they did care about the total length and it's hard to get up there with fewer par-5's.
We did have a laugh at the yardage....par 72 7175 yards....very 1990s. But I didn't really think about the length until the last 4 holes, except for 11. We played the 6700 yard tees and hit it about 240 off the tee for reference.
When I read the account of the routing, and how the main site could only accommodate 31-32 holes and that 1-5 Red needed to be found to make 36 work, I expected holes to be a bit closer together. There's no place that it feels cramped, in fact it's downright spacious. The sense of place is fantastic, extremely quiet and the views across the course are stunning.
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My history with Coore & Crenshaw is that I have been a big fan of C&C since my first visit to Sand Hills. Yes, I think the 14th at Cuscowilla is a great hole and I was always one of the biggest fans of Sugarloaf. Seeing some of the recent pictures of The Red @ Streamsong and then taking a tour of the course made me think that there was lots of width and options out there, I just had to play it.
Today I played with a friend from the U.K. who is a former member at Royal St. George’s. However, he lives in Brooklyn and does not play often so I thought to myself maybe we should play The Silver tees at 6094, but that sounded a little short. Thus we went to the 6584 Black tees, which are 100+ yards shorter that the 6698 Black tees on The Blue/Doak. All measurements are from The Black Tees below. Kyle Harris was our guide for the day, so we had lots of local knowledge.
Hole #1 reminds you of #1 at Sand Hills, but at 464 (Black) and playing as an up hill par 4, it is a tough tough opener, and the double bogey on the card showed its toughness.
Hole #2 is intimidating off the tee and I dunked one in the water.
Hole #3 same thing as number 2.
Yikes, where are the C&C options?
The course then settles into the C&C mode from holes 4-11 and I responded going 3 over during this stretch of holes with a birdie opportunity missed.
The back 9 on The Red from The Black tees plays 3511 at the following distances:
431, 408, 472, 508, 166, 453, 184, 384, 505.
Where is the C&C flexibility and options on the back 9 at The Red?
No short fours, both of the longer par 3’s are on the back.
The par 5’s play 508, 521 on the front and 508 and 505 on the back.
The Biarritz Green and Black tees play on the right side of this picture and as a result are very difficult to hit anything but a cut into a Biarittz????
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9FnaT_DMdp8/T0GWY0Pdk0I/AAAAAAAAAIk/Z2XL2i1TjuU/s640/Streamsong_R16_HDR+-+Crenshaw.jpg)
The Placement from The Silver tee on The Biarritz had a great angle.
Now with all of the above, I will guess that The Red course will be ranked higher by Golf Digest and lower by Golfweek than The Blue. It is the visually more appealing course and the tougher walk of The Red is due to the more up and down and dramatic terrain. For me it played longer that The Blue.
Better players will probably prefer The Red, but for the regular guy golfer getting off a plane in Tampa and Orlando after not hitting a ball for 2-3 months, it is clearly the tougher of the two and the toughest C&C course that I have played.
I thought Tom Doak presented the golfer with more options, variety and flexibility. With a grand total of one play on both courses, my current 10 round split would be 7 on The Doak and 3 on The C&C.
In general, I preferred the greens of C&C and it is a great complementary course that all will enjoy. However I think the C&C will need some tweaking to make it more playable for the regular guy golfer.
Happy New Year.
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Mike,
Thanks. Interesting. Was there more distance variation from the 6100 tees?
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Got my first report on SS from a friend's brother from Chicago. The treehouse will appreciate these comments:
"Raved about the iron shots into the greens on both courses. Liked the C & C track a little more because the Doak greens and fairways had lots of bumps, which made for some funky lies and crazy putts, felt he'd do much better if he played it again because he'd know where to hit it. Overall both courses are superb, not like other courses in Florida."
Keep in mind the guy is a high single digit handicapper from Medinah, probably never played a Doak before... I am happy because they cut their World Woods trip short and added a round on each of the Streamsong courses after being copied in on an email I sent about SS, and they really loved the place.
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Keep in mind the guy is a high single digit handicapper from Medinah, probably never played a Doak before... I am happy because they cut their World Woods trip short and added a round on each of the Streamsong courses after being copied in on an email I sent about SS, and they really loved the place.
Bill,
Medinah single digit !! This sort of fits my theory that the two courses could be perfect models for the Digest vs Golfweek models of ranking courses. I have gotten a few interesting IM's about my views and I have not been banned from the C&C fan club yet. :D Perhaps some others will chime in here over the next few weeks before, during, and after the PGA show in Orlando.
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Mike Sweeney & Tom Doak,
I'd like to play 36 a day with my son for two days in mid-March and stay on or as close to the property as possible.
What do you suggest as the best way to make arrangements ?
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Patrick:
I would call them and see when or if you can book two of the 12 rooms in the clubhouse. I think that staying there is going to be a great experience, and you'll have to stay a half hour away from the resort if you're going to stay anywhere else.
I don't know what the status of room bookings is, but I imagine they will sell out for the season in pretty short order.
By this time next year, there will be a 200-room hotel on site and availability won't be a problem.
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Tom,
Thanks, I'll call them tomorrow.
I like the convenience of staying in the clubhouse and my son is already very excited after I showed him the photos of the course.