Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Mark Saltzman on November 16, 2012, 06:02:22 PM
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(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pine%20Tree/file.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pine%20Tree/file-1.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pine%20Tree/file-2.jpg)
Normal wind direction has holes 3/4 playing straight downwind...
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pine%20Tree/file-3.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pine%20Tree/file-4.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pine%20Tree/file-5.jpg)
I will post more later but wanted to get started...
First, as I said to Tony Nysse when I met him, "I didn't know greens in Florida could run this fast or putt this true." Though I was told that the greens were running slightly slower than mid-season speed (they were running at 12) and slightly softer that than mid-season firmness, I thought the maintenance meld was darned near ideal. Downhill putts/recoveries were fearsome but usually doable with a perfectly played shot. Well-struck approaches to greens would land and release a few yards, but shots hit a bit thin or fat would trundle over the green. When the greens are at full speed and firmness, combined with the wind, elevated greens, and run-offs at the perimeters of the greens, you better be one hell of a ball-striker to score.
I understand the fairways were all re-grassed in the summer with Celebration Bermuda. They are impeccable. The 6,600 yard tees I played actually played quite short, as unlike most Florida golf, shots hit in the fairway would bounce and roll-out.
More to come...
The round starts with my favourite type of opener -- a hole where conservative shots should result in par but careless shots will be penalized. The 1st is a short par-4 that bends left around a series of bunkers. Golfers that choose to lay back from the tee will be faced with this obtruded approach to an angled green that falls away on all sides. It is clever, raised bunkering like this that makes the golf course feel anything but flat.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pine%20Tree/file-6.jpg)
It is some 230 yards from the Member Tees to carry the left-side bunkers. Golfers brave enough to do so will be left with a better view of the green and most importantly a shot that is played up the throat of this angled green.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pine%20Tree/file-24.jpg)
As seen from the front edge of the green, the green angles left-to-right to the fairway and is surprisingly shallow.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pine%20Tree/file-25.jpg)
A back pin must be the most difficult pin on the 1st green as the green slopes noticeable away once past its mid-point.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pine%20Tree/file-7.jpg)
None of Wilson's par-3s are easy, but they do offer variety, playing in 3 directions and ranging from 137 to 190 yards (7i, 4i, 5i, PW for me). The 2nd green may be the most difficult par-3 green to hit, playing with a left-to-right wind and to a shallow green that falls off short, back-right and back-left.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pine%20Tree/file-8.jpg)
3 and 4 are both mid-length par-4s, but downwind, length is not an issue on either. There is substantial fairway width at the 3rd, but pin position will dictate an ideal side of the fairway. As is regular at Pine Tree, the 3rd green is of a unique shape, narrow in the front half before widening significantly in the back-half -- almost like a 'T'.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pine%20Tree/file-9.jpg)
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I have driven around Pine Tree but have yet to play the course - strikes me as a tremendous golf club, with classic period design, a golf-only culture, and impeccable conditioning - I am very interested to follow this tour.
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Mark,
# 1 generally plays into a strong prevailing wind and plays anything but short.
You got lucky on the day you were there.
The forth picture, the one of the 1st green doesn't do the green or the approach justice.
Do you have a photo from about 170-150 ?
It's a green angled from front left to back right and a tough target given that it plays narrow and is surrounded by bunkers.
Making a 4 on that hole is a challenge.
It's easy to start off two or three over par after the first two holes, as # 2 usually plays into the teeth of the wind as well.
You know, by the time you get to the third tee that you're in for a challenge.
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So far so good. Love the look of this place.
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From what I have seen from pics posted on this website and facebook, the course looks great. A lot of credit goes to Tony and his staff. Good job Tony and keep up the great work. Hopefully the members are seeing the changes and giving you the credit.
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Mark,
# 1 generally plays into a strong prevailing wind and plays anything but short.
You got lucky on the day you were there.
The second picture, the one of the 1st green doesn't do the green or the approach justice.
Do you have a photo from about 170-150 ?
It's a green angled from front left to back right and a tough target given that it plays narrow and is surrounded by bunkers.
Making a 4 on that hole is a challenge.
It's easy to start off two or three over par after the first two holes, as # 2 usually plays into the teeth of the wind as well.
You know, by the time you get to the third tee that you're in for a challenge.
Patrick, I played close to first thing and had the first two holes with little to no wind, but it sure did start to pick up after that!
On 1 (from the 6,600 yard tees), a good tee shot left me the view I have added to the opening post -- about 110 yards to the front pin.
Even from where I hit my approach, which was ideal position, only to a front pin is it a simple shot. Most of the putting surface remains blind.
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Mark,
I am looking forward to your review, both positive and negative. It was a please meeting you and gaining your thoughts. I will confirm that our "winter winds" usually come from the south, southeast. Thus making 3 & 4 downwind and 5 & 6 into the wind. Same with 14-downwind and 15 into the wind. Summer breezes are different, but we always blow leaves/debris/divots on 1 & 8 to the right side of the fairways, thus making for a southeast wind. (off the ocean)
Chris-Thank you for the kind words. The membership, so far, has certainly enjoyed the changes and never really got the fairway grass they were hoping for in 2005 when it was previously renovated.
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What's the average Handicap of the members? I'm guessing it's significantly lower than most clubs in the area...
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What's the average Handicap of the members? I'm guessing it's significantly lower than most clubs in the area...
We have a solid core of members in the 0-8 range. With most greens requiring an aerial shot into the green, because of a fronting bunker, the course certainly lends itself to beat golfers up. Mr. Mucci probably wont brag, but he has a collection of Club Championships under his belt.
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The 3rd and 4th holes are interesting in that they are both holes that play straightaway, but because the golfer will aim away from the centreline of fairway, they feel like dogleg holes. At the 4th the Line of Instinct is interrupted by a rather large-scale bunker, but the golfer must fight his temptation to play left and play as far right as he dare for a much preferred angle of approach.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pine%20Tree/file-10.jpg)
Approaches from the left are played over a series of greenside bunkers, one of which contains these grass islands, a feature seen several times on the golf course.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pine%20Tree/file-11.jpg)
As seen from back-left, the 4th green lay at a 45-degree angle to the centre of the 4th fairway. Approaches from the right need not carry the greenside bunkering and run less risk of bounding into the swale beyond the green.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pine%20Tree/file-12.jpg)
Along with the tee shot at the 12th (once also a par-5), the only bunkerless tee shot on the golf course. There is ample width, but the golfer, now having hit 4 shots in a row downwind, must immediately adjust his swing to the headwind. The picture below is taken some 230 yards from the member tee, leaving 330 yards to the green, an intimidating view and zero chance of clearing the fairway bunkers on the right. Cleverly varied fairway widths allow the golfer to play well short of the fairway bunkers, but the golfer wishing to leave 150 yards or less must bravely challenge the narrow portion of the fairway.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pine%20Tree/file-13.jpg)
Though the 5th is a par-5, I am guessing few golfers will approach the green with less than a mid-iron third shot. The 5th features a fascinating green, whose back portion is split left and right by a spine that sends balls toward the fall-offs on the back corners of the green.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pine%20Tree/file-14.jpg)
From the tee, the 6th looks strikingly similar to the 2nd. Removal of the fronting bunker, especially given the predominant wind direction, may allow for a greater variety of shots that could be played into this green.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pine%20Tree/file-15.jpg)
The green is almost 3-pronged, with tongues/fall-offs front-left, back-left and back-right. Another mid-sized green that plays much smaller.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pine%20Tree/file-16.jpg)
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What's the average Handicap of the members? I'm guessing it's significantly lower than most clubs in the area...
Jud,
Not long ago, there were 56 golfers 4 or better, 20 2 or better and 10 0 or better.
That's a pretty solid group.
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It has been many years since I played Pine Tree but I always liked the 5th. It always seemed a bit of a double dogleg to me. You wanted to draw the tee shot and fade the second shot. Angles were critical there. True?
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Had the pleasure to play there recently. I agree that Tony is doing a great job and has that course primed for the upcoming season. What struck me was how nice and hospitable the members were. I know that this site has discussion dominated about the actual courses themselves, but as far as a Club can be graded, you need to have great members to have a great club. Fortunately for Pine Tree, they seem to have both.
FYI- Love the picture of the Hogan quote. Seems to be a good summation of Florida golf as a whole. Flat.
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It has been many years since I played Pine Tree but I always liked the 5th. It always seemed a bit of a double dogleg to me. You wanted to draw the tee shot and fade the second shot. Angles were critical there. True?
Tom,
From the back tee, I"ve always felt that # 5 at 620 was more difficult than # 16 at 670
# 5 plays into a wind or a cross wind that's mostly in your face, whereas # 16 plays downwind.
# 5's green is 1/4 the size of # 16 green, and totally surrounded by fronting bunkers.
And, the second shot on # 5 is much harder.
Both are real deal par 5's but, I'm sort of partial to # 5.
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I'm new here so go easy on me. But, I can't resist asking:
On Pine Tree's scorecard, it shows the ASGCA logo above Dick Wilson's name.
Have I missed something or is this the pinnacle of irony?
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Mark:
Thanks for yet another great photo tour. How does Pine Tree compare, in your view, to some of the other South Florida courses you've played? I was thinking specifically of CC of Florida and John's Island, but it looks like you've played just a few others, ;D, so no need to limit yourself to those two courses....
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Mark,
I notice you used the term "Line of Instinct". Is that a term you have read somewhere else, or did you make that up?
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It has been many years since I played Pine Tree but I always liked the 5th. It always seemed a bit of a double dogleg to me. You wanted to draw the tee shot and fade the second shot. Angles were critical there. True?
Tom,
From the back tee, I"ve always felt that # 5 at 620 was more difficult than # 16 at 670
# 5 plays into a wind or a cross wind that's mostly in your face, whereas # 16 plays downwind.
# 5's green is 1/4 the size of # 16 green, and totally surrounded by fronting bunkers.
And, the second shot on # 5 is much harder.
Both are real deal par 5's but, I'm sort of partial to # 5.
Patrick, based on very limited experience, I agree. After a Driver / 3W on both 5 and 16, I had 5-iron left into 5 and 8-iron into 16.
I also agree that the second shot on 5 is not only more difficult, but also more interesting.
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Mark:
Thanks for yet another great photo tour. How does Pine Tree compare, in your view, to some of the other South Florida courses you've played? I was thinking specifically of CC of Florida and John's Island, but it looks like you've played just a few others, ;D, so no need to limit yourself to those two courses....
Carl, CCF is on a [slightly] better piece of land, with a couple of noticeable elevation changes and a with some more rolling fairway contouring. Its bunkering is simpler and arguably more strategic. The greens at both are interesting. Pine Tree's are all raised, varying greatly in size and shape, but once found are simply contoured. Both courses make excellent use of fairway cut run-offs around the green.
I haven't played all of the big name courses in Florida, but my Florida top-5 would include:
Johns Island West
Pine Tree
Country Club of Florida
Calusa Pines
TPC Sawgrass
Close: Old Marsh, Black Diamond, Trump, High Ridge
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Mark,
I notice you used the term "Line of Instinct". Is that a term you have read somewhere else, or did you make that up?
John, I did not make it up. My friend Tommy Naccarato has spent a lot of time trying to get me to fully understand the distinction between, and importance of, the Line of Instinct and Line of Charm.
"The trouble with most inland golf holes, as I see it, is that they emphasize instinct. And the golfer's instinct upon the tee is to drive on a bee line to the hole. This line in most cases is down the middle of a fairway, which permits too much latitude for mistakes. Instinct supplies the motive power, but it is the degree and manner in which instinct is opposed that calls upon intelligence. In other words, it is the peculiarity of the manner in which instinct is transformed by hazards that makes or breaks a hole. According to the conformation of the ground, there is for all of us a definite line that we will plump for. If the ground slopes gently down from right to left, the line of instinct will be bent out to the right. We will want to overcome the throw of gravity. This we may call the line of charm . Before construction, this line must be felt. When determined, nothing must be done to deny it. The golfer must not be turned from it. But we can render it tremendously exciting for him to take it. In other words, if we could always accurately determine the line of instinct of a hole, all we have to do is to dig bunkers into it, with the result that we make the firing line hot for him.” -- Max Behr
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Thanks for the explanation, Mark. As always, great photos and commentary.
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The seventh hole is the most difficult hole on the golf course and includes what must be the course's single most controversial feature -- a pair of trees guarding the ideal line within 50 yards of the tee. The prevailing wind is from right to left, demanding the golfer take their tee shot over the water to find the fairway. A pair of deep bunkers guard the outside of the dogleg -- they could be saving bunkers but their severity converts them to a penal feature.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pine%20Tree/file-17.jpg)
Playing near the water leaves the much easier approach. Not only does the golfer play their approach on a straighter line into this angled green, but he also plays into its considerable slope.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pine%20Tree/file-18.jpg)
The 8th is a similar hole to the 1st, playing in the same direction and moving left from the tee. Unlike the 1st, the series of bunkers on the left should not be challenged, and the angled green at 1st is replaced by a wide and shallow green.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pine%20Tree/file-19.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pine%20Tree/file-20.jpg)
The second of three par-5s on the golf course, the 9th is the only one reachable in two. A pair of bunkers intrude into the fairway's centreline and must be carried (about 230 yards from the Member Tee) if the golfer wishes to reach the green in two.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pine%20Tree/file-21.jpg)
A series of 3 bunkers protect the right side of the fairway, and the closer the 2nd shot is played to the green, the narrower the fairway. Laying up to the widest point of the fairway leaves this imposing 100-yard approach...
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pine%20Tree/file-22.jpg)
While playing to the narrow left-side portion of the fairway leaves a more appealing pitch...
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pine%20Tree/file-23.jpg)
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Clearly the guys who attended UCC understand Max Behr better than this fellow. I'll have to reread it until I understand what he means by "line of instinct." Line of charm is less confusing, as it suggests to me a wayward seduction, an entrapment. For me, in most cases, the two are inseparable, as I always expect to hit the ball better than I am capable.
How does celebration bermuda differ from regular/natural bermuda, the legal weed? What type of grass is on the greens, to get them so fast and true?
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Mark,
Thanks for posting these pictures, they're great.
The only problem I see is that the telephoto lens tends to shorten the look of the hole.
Some of the par 4's, photo'd from the tee, look almost like long par 3's.
What's abundantly clear is the aerial nature of the golf course at the green end and the need to avoid fairway bunkers.
I'll post additional commentary when time permits, but I have to run, I have a big match tomorrow with a dear friend.
We're playing against our sons whose golfing future is ahead of them, while our's is behind us.
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Clearly the guys who attended UCC understand Max Behr better than this fellow. I'll have to reread it until I understand what he means by "line of instinct." Line of charm is less confusing, as it suggests to me a wayward seduction, an entrapment. For me, in most cases, the two are inseparable, as I always expect to hit the ball better than I am capable.
How does celebration bermuda differ from regular/natural bermuda, the legal weed? What type of grass is on the greens, to get them so fast and true?
Stan, UCC grad or not, I think you're definition of the Line of Charm isn't quite right.
Wayward seduction and entrapment are words I would more closely associate with the Line of Instinct.
Behr sometimes described the Line of Instinct as the straight line to the hole, at least on straightaway holes. On dogleg holes I am not sure if Behr would describe the Line of Instinct similarly as a straight line to the hole, but to me, it is the line the golfer instinctually (duh) or naturally wants to hit his tee shot on. But, this temptation is often not the ideal line. I think Pete Dye in his early work was as good as anyone in forcing the golfer's instinct towards the inside of the dogleg, while the smart play and indeed the ideal line was a good deal away from this line. This ideal line is the Line of Charm.
Creating this contrast in the golfer's mind, this forcing of thought and indecision, is the key to the Line of Instinct / Line of Charm --- at least as I understand it!
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Funny, I associate the terms "line of charm" and "line of instinct" with a sort of golf elitism that benefits no one. Why not call them by what they are, the more ideal or better line to the hole and the straight line to the hole.
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Funny....I associate the terms "line of charm" and "line of instinct" with a sort of golf elitism that benefits no one.
That's probably because you may not be well read.
Why not call them by what tthey are...the more ideal or better line to the hole and the straight line to the hole.
Because that's not what the architect who coined/popularized the phrases called them.
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Because I am not well read?
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The placement of "perhaps" makes the difference.
Marco, when I think of "charm," I think of bewitchment, as in being charmed away from the logical and the practical. I think of being misled, rather than being shown the proper way of things. That is why the line of charm designation suggested trickery to me.
I'm not questioning your understanding and use of them, but I wonder if they were incorrectly defined from the outset. I do understand that instinctual response/decision-making isn't always proper. I suspect that I'm in need of a lingo-semantic review.
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Stanley, I completely agree with your first paragraph and I often used the term incorrectly before Tommy corrected me.
Frank, I don't know what using these terms or not has to do with growing the game. The terms Line of Charm and Line of Instinct convey much more information than the three word sentences you used to describe them. Like saying a green is 'redan-like,' for those that understand the term a lot of information is contained without further explanation.
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Good tour.
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Mark,
What's the matter with you ?
Evidently you don't understand that if you're well versed, familiar with or somewhat educated regarding golf course architecture, you're an elitist.
Get with the program, uou need to lower the bar and cater to the lowest common denominator when posting on GCA.com
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Patrick, thank you for so clearly stating your position on the matter. I will have to agree to disagree.
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Pat, re #7, what are your thoughts on (1) the trees near the tee and (2) the depth of the fairway bunkering on the outside of the dogleg?
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Pat, re #7, what are your thoughts on (1) the trees near the tee and (2) the depth of the fairway bunkering on the outside of the dogleg?
Mark,
This week the hole played into a good north wind, so I was hitting driver - 3-wood and driver - 2-iron every time.
The prevailing wind is usually at your back.
It's a penal hole.
And, at one time, there was a bunker immediately behind the green.
I don't mind the trees off the tee, I've learned the hard way not to aim out over the lake and try to draw/hook the ball back into play, even with a wind over/behind my right shoulder
I think the fairway bunkers on # 7 are too difficult, but, they are in keeping with the fairway bunkers throughout the golf course.
I look at the hole as a really challenging par 4, but, if I make a 5, I'm not unhappy.
# 7 is really # 14 on steroids.
Today I played with a 60 year old guy who started out wild off the tee and then, on # 14, 15, 16, 17 and 18 drove it down the middle over 300 yards, and, he's got a good short game. For years I've tried to get him to slow down his backswing, which is so fast that he throws himself off balance and hits it crooked, but, when he slows down, he's pretty impressive.
On # 7 today, he drove it in the middle of the 8th fairway, and, he was aiming at the middle of the 7th fairway. ;D
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The 10th hole is a long par-4 (alternate tees allow this to be played as a par-5 on the Members Scorecard). Wilson showed more restraint with his fairway bunkering on the 10th with only a pair of shallow bunkers guarding the inside of the dogleg. Perfect mowing lines and fairway contouring combine to reward golfers that take the bold line.
Another angled green at the 10th. The shortest approach will always be from the left, but back/left pins are much easier accessed from the right.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pine%20Tree/file-26.jpg)
Following the longest par-4 on the course, the 11th is the longest par-3 on the course, though this hole should be downwind. While the pair of par-3s on the front 9 were similar, the two on the back 9 could not be more different. The 11th features a massive green (the largest on the course?) and imposing bunkers on the right. Firm collars + the tilt of the green combine to repel shots that are bailed out away from the green. Misses left face a tricky pitch over a false-front.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pine%20Tree/file-27.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pine%20Tree/file-28.jpg)
The 12th is somewhat forgettable, but it once played as a (short?) par-5 and in that form the water 50 yards short of the green would have been a more interesting feature. The left-to-right wind makes the approach to the right-to-left angled green that much more challenging.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pine%20Tree/file-29.jpg)
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Mark,
YIKES.
The 12th is somewhat forgettable ? ? ?
Tell me that someone broke into your computer and is posting on GCA.com ;D
Clearly you didn't play it into the prevailing wind.
It's a great hole, requiring a good drive and a superior approach.
Should you fail at either, a spectacular recovery will be required.
YIKES.
You've got to come back and play it with me.
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Patrick,
Another very knowledgeable poster made a very similar comment to yours.
Let's call it a failing from seeing the hole only once (though I did play it with a strong prevailing wind).
I hit a very good drive, left of the tree. After that, a good six-iron, drawing against the wind left a 20 foot birdie putt. What's so difficult? ;D
How in play is the water from the tee? I recall, after the good drive I hit, being only in-line with the start of the water on the left?
Also, I understand the new tree is a restoration of an old tree. Do you like this feature on this hole? Does a lengthy par-4 that plays into the wind need a centreline hazard of this kind?
Do you think the hole, particularly with the placement of the crossing water hazard short of the green, played better as a short par-5?
Ps. I'd love to come back and play with you. Maybe we can arrange a home and home when I'm in Florida next.
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Mark,
Remind me again, which tees did you play from ?
The further back you go, the less likely you are to hit it into the water on the left off the tee.
The tree in the fairway on # 12 is the club's logo and the fairway is very generous and the tree really isn't that invasive to play, both off the tee and on the approach. I like it because it's different. If it was a bunker would you declare it a great bottle hole ? ;D
I never played it as a par 5, but, I'd have to debit my drive the difference in yardage from the old par 5 tee and see how it plays from there. The prevailing wind in your face is such an enormous factor and there's not that much room between the end of the water and the start of the green, and that area, between the water and green is steeply sloped toward the water.
Lots of room to bail out right at the green though.
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Blue tees (Championship Course).
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Mark,
On # 12, from the Blue Tees, the water on the left is in play.
As you move back to the Silver and Gold tees, it gets distanced from the golfer's drive, but, is still in play for the long driver if the wind isn't up.
What goes mostly unappreciated on the 12th is the location of the hole.
There are some really, really neat hole locations, especially considering the bunker pattern, configuration and slope of the green.
Par is a really good score.
After playing three long holes, including # 12, you now play three of the shortest holes around, but, those three short holes have claimed more victims, especially those who look at the scorecard and think, "easy birdie holes". I've seen some great rounds come undone on # 13, 14 and 15.
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The 13th starts my favorite three-hole stretch at Pine Tree and Mike Nuzzo would be pleased to see the holes are routed in a triangle (sort of). Based on yardage alone, 13-15 looks like a great opportunity to score, but precision is demanded and small mistakes can result in bogey or worse.
The 13th is somewhat innocuous when the wind is down, especially when playing to a front-pin. But, the predominant wind direction plays across this hole from left-to-right and the lofted approach of a short-iron especially subject to its strength. What is not obvious from the tee is that the angled green stretches from 40 yards and at all distances is a shallow and elusive target.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pine%20Tree/file-30.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pine%20Tree/file-31.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pine%20Tree/file-32.jpg)
The 14th is a reverse of the 7th though it plays much shorter. At both the 7th and 14th anti-strategic bunkering protect the outside of the dogleg and there is a significant reward for challenging the water.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pine%20Tree/file-33.jpg)
Almost a replica of the 13th green, the 14th green is also long, shallow and angled from front-left to back-right. Approaches from the right side of the fairway, near the fairway bunkering, are near impossible when the hole plays down wind.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pine%20Tree/file-34.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pine%20Tree/file-35.jpg)
The 15th plays straightaway and straight into the wind.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pine%20Tree/file-36.jpg)
The 15th green is similar to the 2nd and 6th greens in that it falls off in several places -- front-left, front-right...
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pine%20Tree/file-37.jpg)
Back-left and back:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pine%20Tree/file-38.jpg)
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Mark,
13, 14 and 15 are amongst my favorite holes as well.
A great collection of very short holes where the prevailing direction of the wind contributes to the challenge without creating an overly penal challenge.
What's neat about those three short holes is how dramatically play changes when the wind is from the North, West or East.
Those three holes are the calm before the storm and can create a false sense of security as the golfer prepares to play #'s 16, 17 and 18.
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Tony,
The course looks great! I keep saying I am going to make the trip, after seeing the pics following the work you did this summer I am even more eager to hop on a plane. How much work did you guys actually do to the bunkers? Glad that Brent is coming out there to work for you. Let me know if you have any problems with him, I know where he lives!
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I was waiting for this photo tour to reach the back nine before jumping in with my comments/experience re: Pine Tree. I had the great pleasure to spend a few winters at Pine Tree while attending college in nearby Boca Raton. First as a caddy and then a season in the bagroom working under the "infamous" caddymaster/starter Charlie. I played Pine Tree many times as well as had the chance to caddy for some very good players-the back nine has some of the best "flow" you will see in my opinion. Both the change in direction contained in three hole groups (10-12, 13-15 and 16-18, all playing at about 3 points of the compass) to the shot value's moving from length to finesse back to length.
Many years after playing Pine Tree I played Merion for the first time and while I'm not looking to compare the golf courses, the change in shot value as Merion moves from a beginning of par 5's, strong par 4's to the finesse of holes like 7, 8, 11 and 13 to ending with that great stretch made me recall how Pine Tree's back nine did a similar thing.
Pine Tree is an absolute gem in an area that doesn't usually excite me when it comes to quality of golf courses.
Mike
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Tony,
The course looks great! I keep saying I am going to make the trip, after seeing the pics following the work you did this summer I am even more eager to hop on a plane. How much work did you guys actually do to the bunkers? Glad that Brent is coming out there to work for you. Let me know if you have any problems with him, I know where he lives!
Carter,
The bunker project because the monster of the project. As you know, Bobby Weed renovated the course in 2005 and a majority of the membership was never really happy with the toothy, jagged edge type bunkers that were built. Granted, judging by 1962 photos, the 2005 bunker work was not awful initially, but the summer rains, edging, members walking in and out of bunkers tongues really destroyed them. I was also instructed numerous times to “cut out that finger/tooth.”
Carter, we removed 4-5’ around every bunker, some more. We reestablish/rebuilt the edges using loam and sodded the edges with 419, using 4 staples in each piece. Anywhere that we had bunker complexes, all the turf in between bunkers was regrassed, also. Bunkers that tied into the collar or fairway, we sodded all the way to the tifeagle or the celebration. We laid around 60 truck loads of sod, dating back to April, where we began working on bunkers. That’s that just over 10 acres of sod laid by our staff or 3 trucks/week. The previous bunkers had 419/common/tifsport edges and even a few celebration edges. (Id guess they needed to fix a bunker and that was all the sod they had?) We shortened up some “fingers” that seems to always be used for entering and exiting bunkers, but we rounded up and uniformed a lot of the bunker lines to be cleaner.
We will have to adjust a few next summer, but all and all, MUCH better than before. Not sure I’d choose to take on 130 bunkers in house again, though.
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The 16th begins the final 3-hole triangle, though no matter the wind direction these three holes make for an unrelenting finishing stretch. The 16th stretches to a devilish 666 yards and plays from a 100 yard long (?) runway tee.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pine%20Tree/file-39.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pine%20Tree/file-40.jpg)
While the 16th tee shot is demanding, bunkered on both sides of the fairway (and with a hidden stream waiting to catch those golfers that cut the left side too closely).
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pine%20Tree/file-41.jpg)
The second shot is a simple one, though perhaps this is fitting as few golfers will choose to hit less than 3-wood. The green is very large and gently contoured, falling off front-left and split down its centre by a subtle spine. Approaches from the right will be played over this Oakmontian bunker.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pine%20Tree/file-42.jpg)
The 17th is straightaway and normally plays into the wind making it a real challenge. Even without the wind, a fascinating green will keep golfers interested.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pine%20Tree/file-43.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pine%20Tree/file-44.jpg)
Finally a hole where the predominant wind should assist with the playing of the hole. As at the 16th, the Line of Instinct is broken by a penal bunker, which should not be challenged. A tee shot aimed at the bunkering along the left side of the hole should be blown back to the centre of the fairway by the wind.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pine%20Tree/file-45.jpg)
One final angled green -- one of the least contoured greens on the course -- awaits the golfer.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pine%20Tree/file-46.jpg)
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Mark,
Thanks again for the photo tour.
# 17 was said to be Snead's favorite hole, with it's upside down pear shaped green flanked by bunkers.
# 16 is a par 5 where you just can't miss a shot or hit a marginal shot.
Even down wind it demands three solid shots.
You can't play it safe or limp in if you have a lead, you have to play strong to the end.
Anthony,
Interesting comment about the fingers in the bunkers.
I liked the fingers, but I thought that their texture was all wrong.
Balls hit into them became mostly unmanageable for the membership.
Had the grass been maintained differently, I wonder if you would have received as many, if any negative comments.
Those fingers were a Wilson trademark.
Bob Von Hagge told me that he adopted that same style from Wilson.
Mike,
I remember our rounds at Pine Tree and our many discussions about golf, golf course architecture and some characters that we knew, like Steve W.
Hope all is well
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Country club guys always whine about ragged bunker edging and native grasses. More's the pity. Pine Tree is a big, brawny flat Florida gem. Better yet, it's a great CLUB. That's the most meaningful distinction of all. Great guys, very little artifice.
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Terry,
This was far more than "ragged" bunker edging.
It was deep, difficult rough where reasonable extrication was nearly impossible due to both the height and density of the grass and the inability to take a stance due to its location.
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Terry,
This was far more than "ragged" bunker edging.
It was deep, difficult rough where reasonable extrication was nearly impossible due to both the height and density of the grass and the inability to take a stance due to its location.
I can't say that I have heard anything about the height of the grass being an issue. The edges uses to be 6-8" of soil. In fact, the surrounds were being maintained at 1-1.5". The look from 2005-2011 looked like Wilson's original bunker work at Pine Tree. (from the 1962 photos) Interesting how none of his other work- NCR, Doral, Ballenisles, Deepdale, Cog Hill, La Casta, Meadow Brook and even West Palm Beach Golf have that sytle bunkers. The courses just listed all have the same bunker style-big bowls, large, wide fingers. MUCH different than what Pine Treeused to have .
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Anthony,
The photo below represents a reasonable bunker surround.
Previously, a 4-5 inch high collar of rough, about 6 inches in width surrounded the bunkers.
In addition, most of the fingers were maintained similarly, making recovery more than just difficult
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pine%20Tree/file-38.jpg)
[/quote]
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If you wish to see how my eyes and camera saw Pine Tree last week, go here:
http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/PineTree/
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If you wish to see how my eyes and camera saw Pine Tree last week, go here:
http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/PineTree/
Great looking pitures and a great looking course. Calling an era and a style that produced this the "Dark Ages" is a little over the top for me. The course looks very demanding in that it asks for consistent execution of specific shots in order to succeed. But this is true of many courses from the era (Trent Jones, the Gordons, George Fazio, Wilson, etc.). Perhaps the disdain of this era is more in the difficulty than anything else? If you don't have the game to execute the shots that are being asked for these courses are not fun. That does not mean that they can not be fun if you have the game however.
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Great photo tour and very cool looking course.
It's amazing how GCA.com continues to educate; I knew pretty much nothing about Dick Wilson before reading about (and then playing) Doral. Evidently he's done some terrific work.
And they say there aren't any good golf courses in Florida!