Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: PCCraig on October 03, 2012, 04:58:50 PM
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I was recently asked by my club's membership director and committee chairman to be a part of a group discussion for ways to attract young(er) members. As it stands today, I would say that it's a fairly typical country club (golf course, pool, tennis courts, etc) and is mostly geared toward families. However, like most clubs across the country, its average membership age is starting to rise and those in charge would like to see more young members.
Does anyone have any similar experiences with their respective courses/clubs? Have you seen anything in particular that attracts new young members and increases their usage of the club? Do you have any ideas as to how you would attract more young people to join a golf/country club?
Thanks in advance for any help or ideas.
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junior programs that think outside the box
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The rules of the club are important. Younger people will want to have their phones with them, if Club A allows mobile phones and Club B does not, it will be very important in a younger persons decsion. More relaxed dress codes, plenty of competitions, friendly pro's and staff and a general non snobotorium attitude will attract.
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junior programs that think outside the box
Jeff,
I don't follow? Junior golf? Or dues structures?
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junior programs that think outside the box
Jeff,
I don't follow? Junior golf? Or dues structures?
Junior golf programs
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Junior Memberships with drastically reduced downstroke and lesser dues, with no restrictions on play or guest privileges. Early group drop-in matches on weekend mornings, no tee-times, no food and bev minimums. Allow guys to carry their own bag.
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Junior Memberships with drastically reduced downstroke and lesser dues, with no restrictions on play or guest privileges.
I think this is the best idea. IMHO, it's hard to change much about a club's culture, how games get set up, etc. But you can eliminate or seriously reduce what I think is the single biggest impediment to younger people joining -- the downstroke. Most people I know who are involved in country club finances would trade some initiation fees for a full dues-paying membership that covers all operating expenses and then some.
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How about paying 1/2 the initiation fee upon joining the club and paying the balance upon turning 35 or 40 years of age?
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Junior Memberships with drastically reduced downstroke and lesser dues, with no restrictions on play or guest privileges. Early group drop-in matches on weekend mornings, no tee-times, no food and bev minimums. Allow guys to carry their own bag.
I think Jud hit on the major ones and is right-on in most cases...I would add that I think a reduced initiation fee is probably more important than lesser monthly dues. I would guess regular cash flow isn't as big of an issue as coming up with a significant downstroke for younger members...
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Child care available for couples golf and social events.
Clinics
Social memberships that Also encourage the member to play and fall in love with the course - inclusion in couples events, opportiunities to play the course a fixed number of times at a reasonable rate below full guest fee.
Mixers specifically for new and prospective members
What I'll call 'mentoring' - pairing up enthusiastic longtime member families with potential newbies to help them feel comfortable and excited about the process. A lot of the potential young members are first-generation - they didn't grow up in a club environment and while they may not admit or openly acknowledge it, the club experience can be intimidating.
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How about paying 1/2 the initiation fee upon joining the club and paying the balance upon turning 35 or 40 years of age?
David, I thought I was young until I read this! I'm just in denial.
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Allowing golfers to tee off shortly after dawn on weekdays and weekends.
Prior thread with some good comments:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,52699.msg1209741.html#msg1209741
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Pat,
My hope is that someone from Olympia Fields will jump in and answer. In Chicago they have the most innovative Junior membership structure. As a result they have a very high number of young guys(under 30) who have joined the last 4 years. A decreased initiation and a portion of monthly dues that are applied to the future remaining downstroke has been their key to success. Far and away the best 36 hole club in Chicago, possibly the Midwest. Great family club as well.
Jack
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They pay 10% of the downstroke upfront and half dues. The dues they pay until coming "of age" all reduce the remaining downstroke.
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Ideas:
1. Relaxed dress code (keep it neat, but don't worry about shorts with velcro pockets or a cap put on backwards)
2. Don't sweat the cell phones.
3. Let them bring their girlfriend to play for $0 (or boyfriend, for that matter)
4. No food minimums
5. A gym (weight and aerobic machines)
6. Reciprocity with other clubs so they can play elsewhere from time to time.
7. Let them bring out more than 3 friends at a time to play golf.
8. Don't make them take a caddy. Too expensive for most younger folks.
PS - If you want some good ideas, ask Chris Johnston.
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I'm currently in the process of trying to join a club in the Chicago area as a junior member. While I haven't entirely been briefed on the details of the pricing structure of this particular club, they have made it known that it will be very affordable. Many of the ideas which have been posted on here are part of the program that this particular club is running.
As a young professional, some things which I think would be fantastic at a golf club:
Close to work
Non compulsory caddie program
Don't nickel and dime- i.e. charge me a cart fee to play 4-5 holes after work
Nice range
Low or no food minimums
Reasonable guest fee
Peter Millar in the pro shop
Relaxed dress code around the clubhouse
Other young members
Strong playing membership
However, the most important thing to me would be the course and I'd gladly give up a few of these attributes for a great one.
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Adrian S,
Younger people will want to have their phones with them, if Club A allows mobile phones and Club B does not, it will be very important in a younger persons decsion. More relaxed dress codes
Maybe some of them, but to me and the massive influx of 20-something members at my club, this could not be further from the truth.
Young golfers are a varied group with many different wants and needs.
I am sure what you say is true of some young golfers, but IMO the reason there are many different types of club is that there are many different types of golfer.
For mine, a graduated joining fee structure that increases from 18 to 40 in four or five age-groups is a wonderful idea and has played a big part in my club in Sydney now having a waiting list where others are advertising for members and prostituting themselves to keep the ones they have.
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Here in Germany initiation fees or other long-term commitments are on the way out. The world has changed.
Young professionals cannot expect to live and work at the same place for many years to come. The company that you join as a young man or woman and that allows you to settle down with family does not exist anymore. In fact, nowadays most companies are younger and will die sooner than most of the people working there.
There is your answer for attracting younger members. Don't tie them down. Make it possible for them to leave on reasonably short notice.
Ulrich
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Peter Millar in the pro shop
I don't think of Peter Millar as a "young" brand... I would more suggest Adidas / Nike / Puma for the younger guys.
Another one to add is to have Facebook and Twitter pages that get updated regularly.
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Pcraig,
Do you want to lower the bar in order to attract younger members or maintain standards ?
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I am not a younger person but have resisted the temptation for private golf because where I live the price point is higher and the golf is no better (in some cases worse) than the daily fee option. If the daily option was worse or a lot worse, then that changes the equation.
Is or can you make your course more interesting or special relative to what is in the neighborhood?
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As a young professional who went through this process all summer and just joined a club within the past month here are some thoughts of mine...
First and foremost, the course. I was most concerned with finding a course I enjoyed and would continue to joy. It was really nice to have a couple preview plays and get out with a couple members as well.
Pricing. I did not want to pay a huge initiation fee and didn't want huge monthly fees. I'm a bit backwards in this aspect because I would much rather pay a bit more food and bev than monthly fee. We eat out a lot so that's kind of already a cost I have.
No tee times. This is one of the main things I wanted. Show up join a group and play.
Included range. A lot of clubs were charging range fees which was a big turnoff...kind of like Brian said. I don't want to be nickeled and dimed.
Weeknight leagues. I don't and I'm guessing a lot of younger people don't have quite the freedom to get out weekdays so I wanted to be sure I had a weeknight league.
Plenty of competitions.
Couples events. I'm married and my wife plays so we wanted to make sure there would be some events for both of us to play.
I think a key thing would be flexibility. I think it would be good to create a program that you kind of "name your price" where maybe some want more upfront some more monthly and some want more food and bev and less monthly. That would have been very attractive to me.
A couple cool programs i found as well.
2 for 1. At one club if you joined with a friend you split the monthly charge for the first two years and each had a minimum food and bev.
Tiered program. The first year was A lesser monthly fee with an increase the 2nd year and finally reaching the full junior membership fee in the 3rd year. Only downfall was a 3 year commitment .
The one thing thats probably the hardest is letting potential members know about the specials. I know referral programs worked for several of the clubs around here. Hopefully this helps some, feel free to send me a direct message if youd like any more specific details
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Ideas:
1. Relaxed dress code (keep it neat, but don't worry about shorts with velcro pockets or a cap put on backwards)
2. Don't sweat the cell phones.
3. Let them bring their girlfriend to play for $0 (or boyfriend, for that matter)
4. No food minimums
5. A gym (weight and aerobic machines)
6. Reciprocity with other clubs so they can play elsewhere from time to time.
7. Let them bring out more than 3 friends at a time to play golf.
8. Don't make them take a caddy. Too expensive for most younger folks.
PS - If you want some good ideas, ask Chris Johnston.
1. Terrible idea...let's get a few young guys who act like douches, stick around for a year, discover their monthly bill is really about $900 instead of $425 and piss off the longstanding members who have played by the rules for 5-20 years. Backwards hats...seriously?
2. A relaxed cell phone policy is a must.
3. What if they have a flavor of the week? You need some type of policy in place. Every club in the country would be teeming with homosexuals if their buddies could play for free.
4. A small food minimum isn't going to kill anyone. Allow alcohol to be put towards the minimum.
5. Young members don't want to work out at a club where there is a 90 year old woman in grey sweats on the nautilus.
6. Agreed. What club doesn't offer some type of reciprocity.
7. Another terrible idea. 3 guests are plenty, particularly if they are not members at another club. Ask John Kavanaugh.
8. Agreed. The idea of paying a caddie who is older than me on my home course is a bit uncomfortable.
Pat, I think a key may be to allow some guest rounds (within reason: 4-6 X a season or so) to be allowed at very affordable rates. Often, guys join a club and then drop out because it costs them $150/round to play golf with the same guys they've been playing with for the last few years. This would be a great way to show the club off to prospective members as well.
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I agree that high guest fees are a huge problem. Pat lives in a cold climate and one thing I used to do more of when younger is play in very cold weather. One program I would like for winter play would be guest fees equal to the temp outside. Covered carts included of course.
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Pcraig,
Do you want to lower the bar in order to attract younger members or maintain standards ?
Great point!
Lower the initiation fee and/or stretch it out over a few years. Lower the normal dues until a certain age. I'm unsure I'd look to change anything else.
To me, the allure of joining specific clubs is that I want to be a part of that club...that is something about that club appeals to me. If you start changing things to attract members, you might change the precise thing that makes people want to be a member.
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This is a very interesting topic and one that I'm close to.
Firstly, who do we define as a "younger member" - what is the cut off age?
There are a couple of Melbourne clubs (Sandbelt included) that are beginning to provide initiatives for younger people. One Sandbelt club has reduced their joining fee by 50% for under-40's.
I am 27 years of age and fall in this "younger member" category. I for one would join a club to feel a sense of belonging and the aspects of what a club can provide - competitions, events, meeting new people, forming new friendships etc. However, I think I'm in the minority in respect to this.
Most young people join a club to get value for money, and aren't concerned about being a part of the "club".
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This is a very interesting topic and one that I'm close to.
Firstly, who do we define as a "younger member" - what is the cut off age?
There are a couple of Melbourne clubs (Sandbelt included) that are beginning to provide initiatives for younger people. One Sandbelt club has reduced their joining fee by 50% for under-40's.
I am 27 years of age and fall in this "younger member" category. I for one would join a club to feel a sense of belonging and the aspects of what a club can provide - competitions, events, meeting new people, forming new friendships etc. However, I think I'm in the minority in respect to this.
Most young people join a club to get value for money, and aren't concerned about being a part of the "club".
Out of curiosity, what does junior membership cost at a typical Sandbelt club? Very jealous of you folks in Melbourne, by the way.
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Holding off initiation until the member is 35 has worked well at our club. We have had a lot of juniors signing up.
Mark
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This is a very interesting topic and one that I'm close to.
Firstly, who do we define as a "younger member" - what is the cut off age?
There are a couple of Melbourne clubs (Sandbelt included) that are beginning to provide initiatives for younger people. One Sandbelt club has reduced their joining fee by 50% for under-40's.
I am 27 years of age and fall in this "younger member" category. I for one would join a club to feel a sense of belonging and the aspects of what a club can provide - competitions, events, meeting new people, forming new friendships etc. However, I think I'm in the minority in respect to this.
Most young people join a club to get value for money, and aren't concerned about being a part of the "club".
Out of curiosity, what does junior membership cost at a typical Sandbelt club? Very jealous of you folks in Melbourne, by the way.
Brian
The age bracket for junior members is not the same at each club, I believe.
The Sandbelt club I particularly made mention of is Commonwealth - http://commonwealthgolf.com.au/guests/membership/information.mhtml (http://commonwealthgolf.com.au/guests/membership/information.mhtml)
For an under-40, the joining fee at the moment is $5,000 (normally $10,000) and can be paid off in installments (max. 10).
Their annual subscriptions is also reduced for under-40's, and are increased every four years i.e. 20-23, 24-27, 28-31, 32-35, 36-39.
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The keys from my experience in club management are.
Low or no upfront initiation, younger folks are hesitant to lay out cash for something that they are unsure of. The younger folks are also more geographical mobile so moving out of area is an issue
Try to encourage a large young population. The key is to get them hooked on the lifestyle prior to marriage and kids if possible, club and friends there need to become their social circle, so when things change with marriage and kids they are already invested into the club and friends there. It makes it harder to leave. The golf is just the activity which drives the social development.
Get them involved in tournaments, weekend games etc, Active Pro shop who plays match maker to these folks so they quickly integrate. Especially the clubs special tournament and social events
Get them involved in men's and women's league - great for acclimating to membership and meeting people.
Friendly ands cheap guest privlidges, you want these folks bringing their friends to expand the pool of membership
One of the biggest hurdles in membership anywhere is that folks like to play in their regular foursomes doesn't allow for integrating new members
In the end retaining membership is about much more than playing golf. Golf can be played in lots of places and for less money typically so make them appreciate the value and social aspects of membership.
Dan
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The keys from my experience in club management are.
Low or no upfront initiation, younger folks are hesitant to lay out cash for something that they are unsure of. The younger folks are also more geographical mobile so moving out of area is an issue
Try to encourage a large young population. The key is to get them hooked on the lifestyle prior to marriage and kids if possible, club and friends there need to become their social circle, so when things change with marriage and kids they are already invested into the club and friends there. It makes it harder to leave. The golf is just the activity which drives the social development.
Get them involved in tournaments, weekend games etc, Active Pro shop who plays match maker to these folks so they quickly integrate. Especially the clubs special tournament and social events
Get them involved in men's and women's league - great for acclimating to membership and meeting people.
Friendly ands cheap guest privlidges, you want these folks bringing their friends to expand the pool of membership
One of the biggest hurdles in membership anywhere is that folks like to play in their regular foursomes doesn't allow for integrating new members
In the end retaining membership is about much more than playing golf. Golf can be played in lots of places and for less money typically so make them appreciate the value and social aspects of membership.
Dan
+2 this is 100% right who cares about how great the food or golf courses is if they have 30 friends at the club.
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Of course what is defined as young?
I was young when I joined my first club in my late twenties compared to the membership at large. Problem is I am still on the younger range twenty years later?
I think what is considered young is older. Clubs who wanted sub 30's now are hoping for sub 40's.
Another factor is how to acclimate to the higher prices, if it costs say 5k under 30 it can't go to 10k at 31? The income isn't rising that fast and they will look at it as too extreme a increase. Unfortunately this is difficult to implement as a 45 year old paying full freight isn't too excited to see a 10 year member who is 37 paying a fraction of the dues they pay
Additionally the females control much more of the decision process than in older generations so the key is to get them involved socially, golfing and pool, exercise facilities. The membership looked upon as the place the husband goes to play golf and drink with his buddies doesn't gain much support in todays young households and while it didn't in my house either it seems younger couples are more equal than ever or perhaps shifted to the husband having less control than ever.
Dan
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I think there are very specific issues that are often unique to each market but the advice posted by Dan is fantastic.
The problem often is the inertia that sets in with older more established members that don't take well to change and don't really want things like women playing on Saturday and Sunday mornings or children at their golf club. But I think that couples playing on weekends morningis is one of the hardest hurdles to overcome, especially if it is already hard for "full" members to get a tee time on a weekend morning. But in the long run it may be what is best for the club, but it is certainly not the norm at most "old-school" private clubs.
The one thing not mentioned by Dan, but mentioned by someone else, is childcare. If my club had childcare on Sat and Sun mornings then it would be far easier for me to get out and play more often (note that my wife does not play) as my wife would not mind me playing at this time.
It appears that there are also different definitions of the term "junior". At my club a junior is someone under 18. Intermediates are the 18-35 cohort that we are working hard to attract.
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Great point!
Lower the initiation fee and/or stretch it out over a few years. Lower the normal dues until a certain age. I'm unsure I'd look to change anything else.
To me, the allure of joining specific clubs is that I want to be a part of that club...that is something about that club appeals to me. If you start changing things to attract members, you might change the precise thing that makes people want to be a member.
I would think that lowering the initiation fee would have been one of the first things that came to mind for the club too.
I understand the allure about wanting to be part of "the club". I don't understand holding to the standards so tightly that the membership just dies off. If the current standards were producing a sustainable membership, they wouldn't be looking to adjust them.
Change the standards to make it more attractive to me, and chances are you're attracting people like me.
There are lots of reason why the younger crowd hasn't been interested in, or invited to join. Financial reasons are very likely one them. But if the initiation fee is all you're going to change, you better hope that financial reasons are far and away the biggest factor.
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We at Olympia Fields do try to have an attractive
Junior (we call it Associate) program. It started with the understanding that at many clubs the average age of a
Member is dead, and that is not good for the future of any club. We also believe that any member has to have some skin in the game, and really want to be there. So we require a decent upfront payment (I think it is now $6000 or so), and we do count dues against the rest of the initiation fee, due when the member turns 35. Dues are low as well, gradually rising to be close to full dues at age 34.
The program has been a great success. Our "conversion" rate is over 80 percent, and we have upwards of 45-50 of these members, including a lot of terrific men and women golfers. They are young executives and business people who do a lot of entertaining and for the most part have really bought into what we do. A number get together for standing "just show up" games on weekends as well, but have also been integrated into the regular membership.
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I know of one sure fire way to add younger members - provide after-school programs for young kids.
For most families these days, both parents work and finding a good after-school activities for their kids is paramount. If there was an after-school program for school aged kids at a local golf club where they can spend time playing golf or other activities, it would be very very attractive to those parents 45 and under who have enough cash to pay for the downstroke and the monthly payments.
It will bind the parents to the club for a good decade or so, during which they will form bonds with other members that will be hard to break after kids get older. And it will also expose the young kids to the club so that when they get older, they will be more likely to join.
This is pretty much the reason why I joined my tennis club...
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Does younger members = Have kids start playing golf? OR Young adults joining the club?
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Our club (in The Netherlands) has started trial (junior) memberships to young people under 30. When they turn 30 they have to have proven they are actively participating in the club and be able to get 3 new signatures of senior members other than the ones they needed to sign up for the Junior membership. They pay half the annual fees, have no voting rights, and are required to play in a minimum number of club tournaments. Almost all of these people choose to become senior members at which time they are also required to pay the contribution (initiation fee) which can be payed over 3 years.
I think this works well. Put whatever age on it you wish. Each of these younger members needs to have 3 senior members that are in essence responsible for them sign and write letters on their behalf. One of these senior members acts as a mentor and helps them integrate.
I don't think it's about rules at all, all the rules should be the same as they are, standards maintained etc.
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Old thread for reference:
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,25854.5
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There is no one answer, but in general, making membership cheaper is the single biggest factor against a person of any age joining a club - well this and a lot of folks don't play golf.
Ciao
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I agree there is no one answer. In reading this thread what came over clear to me is, it is very different in the UK than in the USA and in that respect, you have got a much tougher problem than here in the UK where money is less of an issue as we dont really have food and beverage minimums and joining/initiation fees exist only in about 25% of clubs now. We have a joining fee which can be spread over 5 years and amounts to £100 or £200 per year on the subscription, if you leave after 2 or 3 years you are not responsible for years 4 and 5. People move around with jobs and situations change. We also have zero join fee for under 29s.
The problem is if we go under 29 free, the next club will go under 30 and another under 32 and so on, getting members, retaining them has become a 'rat race'. In the UK the most important factors are not the course, our culture is very different, proximity and where your mates play weigh heavy in the decsion.
We have been over the dress and phone situations in other threads, and whilst we all have our own hates a relaxed situation is a 90%-10% attract-detract. Some people will like a stricter regime and that will be the reason for them to join as Scott Warren eluded. Its not wrong for him but certainly in the UK its a minor opinion. I dont like hats back to front, I dont really mind hats worn in the clubhouse, I dont like jewellery in mens heads or tattoos....I accept I am a minor opinion though and must shut up. White vans in the car park will cause some offence to some....this list goes on of just how the barriers have fallen. The majority of our members change in the car park, some days the changing rooms are empty, that is a complete 360 degree turn from the days when I started playing golf.
This thread is interesting also in how you define 'Younger' members, some of you see it as high as under 40. The world has changed as is changing, clubs can chose to be snobotoriums and that will suit some, those I suspect will be the sinkers over time. In 15 years I know of 1 course that was the best in town and now is the one that has gone to ratshit.... it chose the snobotorium route.
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The problem that golf clubs have got themselves into in the UK is that the benefits of belonging to a single club are no longer obvious to very many golfers.
Average club membership works out at something like £15 - £20 per week throughout the year. For hopeless addicts like myself who plays at least two full rounds a week as well as a few holes after work most days this is a bargain - but most guys play once or twice a week in the summer and seldom in the winter; maybe 40 rounds a year at most. For £15 - £25 a round in my area you could play a different course every week and still not have travel more than 20 miles! Why tie yourself to one place?
There seems to be a hardcore in every club for whom 'The Club' has great importance. Most other members are simply there to play golf, with many of them never breaching the theshold of the clubhouse. For many enthusiastic players of the game, the traditional golf club model is irrelevent. They just want to play golf on a nice course, or courses, at an affordable price.
With the internet bringing us virtual golf societies where nomadic golfers can organise and join regular open games and competitions at discounted green fees at a variety of courses the historic necessity to be in a club to have a ready supply of playing partners is no more.
I do not see an easy way back. Clubs need to evolve to cater for this more nomadic and casual customer base, without antagonising an existing membership who object to the very idea of the course being full of fee-paying visitors and societies.
It's a hard line to walk.
Attracting young members is the easy bit - keeping them is the problem. How many young men in their early thirties can justify golf club membership when children start to arrive?
How about half-price membership dues to all those with a child under the age of 10?
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You gotta get then invested in the club, so if they're walking away, they're walking away from an amount that will hurt a little.
I completely disagree with that. Don't rely on trickery to suck people in, it will backfire. If all that keeps people from leaving your club is loss of financial investment, then you're not running a good business. Provide value for money and nobody will want to leave and many new members will want to join.
Ulrich
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You gotta get then invested in the club, so if they're walking away, they're walking away from an amount that will hurt a little.
I completely disagree with that. Don't rely on trickery to suck people in, it will backfire. If all that keeps people from leaving your club is loss of financial investment, then you're not running a good business. Provide value for money and nobody will want to leave and many new members will want to join.
Ulrich
I think largely your right Ulrich and thats good buisness practice generally for pretty much everything. On the other side I can see the reasoning, with no joining fees members will migrate to 'this years best deal' and it all becomes a rat race. Loyalty can be found in a number ways though but if you really want loyalty....buy a dog.
Duncan - All good points. Big percentages of members dont even play 40 times, the average is probably the high 20s and the problem often is committees see themselves playing 60-70 times as average and just dont understand the problem because they have no tee time checking systems....so they are not spotting that Johnny Jones is paying £800 PER YEAR and playing 23 times.
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Duncan there will be plenty of Americans laughing at £15-£20 per week total dues. That is how much it costs to get to the first tee in tips alone at many courses. $5 for the valet parking, $10 to the caddie master and $10 to the lockeroom attendant. Oh and don't forget the $10,000 annual, $250 per month food minimum and $80 per round for your neighbour's kid to carry your bag and rake the bunkers.
I think I can work out why attracting younger members can be difficult on the other side if the pond!
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The USA model just makes no sense and as time passes has virtually zero chance of continuing. Maybe it has some kind of chance if the initiation fee is more like equity, so a member buys in an owns a stake in the golf club.... Who owns these member golf courses? If its the members could the golf club not be split into say 100,000 Shares and each member owns a piece. That way you can navigate past some members not having to pay an initiation (they get no stake) or even a discounted rate..... Its a way you can appease the long standing member thats literally paid his dues.
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Duncan there will be plenty of Americans laughing at £15-£20 per week total dues.
I'm sure you're right, Mark.
Golf in the UK is extremely cheap - almost certainly too cheap. Hence why so many clubs are in trouble. My point is that there is simply no need to join a golf club in the UK because the average once a week player can play wherever he fancies for the same kind of money.
I know lots of golfers who play their regular games at various local clubs for £15- £20 green fees, and then treat themselves once in a while to a £50 round at a more prestigious course. This model even allows for the odd visit to Birkdale or Wallasey without breaking the bank.
Green fees seem to be getting even cheaper. A good championship links course in North Wales is currently advertising play at almost any time for £15.00. One of the best clubs in Manchester is on TeeOffTimes at £20.00
No wonder clubs are having difficulty filling their membership - young or old. The appeal of belonging to a club at all is of little importance to many (most?) golfers. I suspect this reflects a change in society as much as anything.
The other important aspect of course, is that in uncertain times no-one wants to make an uneccesary financial commitment. Club membership is a financial commitment, and for the reasons given above, unnecessary.
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It's not unnecessary if you play a lot. Isn't it somewhat obvious that clubs should cater to those, who spend a lot of time at the club? What else is a club, if not the place where you spend a lot of time?
So why run after once in a while players, they are clearly not interested in spending a lot of time at the club and they are the ones, who will go after every year's best deal. Membership dues should be so that playing frequently will make for a lower cost per round as it would paying a one-off greenfee. Then it all makes sense economically for everyone and that is the basis you need for any business. First it must make sense economically, then you can try to get your members invested emotionally.
The question how to attract new members then boils down to how can you convince people to play more frequently? In other words: how do you get younger guys and gals to get into the golf lifestyle?
Interestingly, many clubs approach this from exactly the opposite direction: they ask how can they get members to play less frequently, in order to free up extra tee times for guests or sponsored events. But in my mind relying economically on members, who hardly play at all, will not produce the kind of golf lifestyle at your club that you need to attract younger members.
Ulrich
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The USA model just makes no sense and as time passes has virtually zero chance of continuing.
Adrian,
Your model is the one that seems to make the most sense to me as the future of golf in the USA. A variety of price points for a variety of lifestyles:
http://www.theplayersgolfclub.com/membership/membership-pricing/
When you state the "USA model" and Mark states the tipping fees to get to the first tee as USA clubs, I think this incorrect view can be linked to the Mucciazation of Golf Club Atlas. There is a market here in USA beyond the private clubs of the Northeast and Florida! We have 15,000 golf courses and each one probably has it own unique "membership" model.
Reality is second tier old school private country clubs will struggle the same way that "private city athletic clubs" were taken over in the last 20 years by the modern day public sports clubs with fantastic facilities and pricing models. See Chelsea Piers:
http://www.chelseapiers.com/ NYC
http://www.chelseapiersct.com/ Connecticut
I see it every day as my "private city athletic/college club" (aka The Cornell Club in New York City) has a growing list of "reciprocal" arrangements with private golf and country clubs. Obviously they are not going to send you out on a Saturday morning at any of the reciprocals, but they are clearly exploring different paths for revenues.
Then you have The Outpost Club and some other internet clubs where private clubs are showing up more and more for off-peak tee times.
It is a changing market for probably 90% of the private clubs and 100% of the public golf courses in the USA. At the end of the day, they all need more golfers and a bunch of old white guys asking a young white guy (Pat Craig) how to pull in golfers from the public market simply shifts the problem around.
The golf industry in the USA needs women (which brings in the kids) and minorities to grow as minorities will soon be the majority in the USA:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/17/us/whites-account-for-under-half-of-births-in-us.html?pagewanted=all
This website is a great source of fun and interesting conversations about architecture and related topics, but if I was in the golf industry like you, I would run away from the group think business model of GCA.com. ;)
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Ben - most clubs in metro Philly have no reciprocity. Completely different than when I was in Portland, OR were we had a lot of reciprocity. Guess it's a cultural thing.
And we had that you can bring a gal out to play golf for free thing. It was great. (by the way, they didn't have a single member category, so to make it up to us, they allowed it).
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Pat:
Somewhat out of left field, but I'll throw in my two cents (having followed Groucho Marx's dictum, I know little about the mechanics of joining a club).
Find a way for your club to start hosting high school golf tournaments, or junior tournaments, or if the course is good enough (like Olympia Fields does), collegiate ones (ask Jeff Goldman or Terry Lavin about the vibe at Olympia F. when they host a collegiate tournament). Consider becoming the "home" course for matches for a local high school.
These folks are your future members. Maybe not the ones who play there specifically when in high school (or college), but you get my point. The world of junior golfers is incredibly tight; in any given area/state, these kids all know each other. Create a good vibe about your club. Have the membership help out a bit at the tournament. Grill up some burgers and hot dogs and feed 'em for free. Give them a free green fixer-upper tool or a sleeve of balls with the club logo. Give them 20 percent off at the pro shop. Make them feel welcome, and not like a stodgy club (and some clubs with a relaxed vibe don't have to do much in that regard).
I'm of the view that, in any endeavor, you can create the greatest thing in the world, but if you wait for people to come in, you're losing ground, because it's a competitive world out there. Grab some young golfers and bring them in (at a relatively low cost to the club), and make it a good experience.
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If a club sets their initiation fee lower for junior members they also need to provide a way for the members to build equity in their membership during their term as a junior member (% of dues goes towards remaining initiation) like Olympia Fields and many other clubs do. Without this you'll have a huge drop out rate at the age of 35 when the initiation is due and people are starting families, buying homes and generally spending their money elsewhere.
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If a club sets their initiation fee lower for junior members they also need to provide a way for the members to build equity in their membership during their term as a junior member (% of dues goes towards remaining initiation) like Olympia Fields and many other clubs do. Without this you'll have a huge drop out rate at the age of 35 when the initiation is due and people are starting families, buying homes and generally spending their money elsewhere.
Agreed. I'm not familiar with the models out there now, but considering the stages in life people are at seems paramout in establishing a model.
Would a model like this work? Does it exist? Is it too complex?
<30: pay 10% initiation, 60% dues, 25% of dues toward initiation
30-39: pay 20% initiation (if not yet a member or 20% not reached yet), pay full dues, 40% of which goes toward initiation with the difference being assessed at age 40
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I think there are several issues being discussed here
1) How do you attract more Junior members
2) How to build a club to attract more junior members
A lot of this discussion is about to how build a club to attract junior members. Seems like there are 2 schools of thoughs a) create a ton of amenties or b) focus on lower costs. personally, i'd pick b since if you are going to support fine dining, swimming, tennis, you are going to create much higher monthly dues.
The tricky part is that you need to attact members to the club you already have. If you already have a pool, you arent going to shut it down and if you dont have one, you aren't going to build one.
I think the key for a club is getting the right mix of people. Ultimately, this will help your cost structure since it will spread out play. If you have a majority 40 unders, everyone will want to play at 8am on saturday morning, if you have an older membership, the peak times will be wed and friday midday.
The key is really to emphasize through marketing the strength that you already have.
For me (34 years old), my priorities were:
- quality course
- locations
- high number of single digit handicap
- tee time availaility on weekend morning, post-dinner on weekdays
- pace of play
- lack of pretense
Not sure if this is the same for all younger members, but it is probably pretty close.
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For me (34 years old), my priorities were:
- quality course
- locations
- high number of single digit handicap
- tee time availaility on weekend morning, post-dinner on weekdays
- pace of play
- lack of pretense
Not sure if this is the same for all younger members, but it is probably pretty close.
[/quote]
This is a pretty accurate list of my priorities.
I live in Brooklyn and work in CT. I would love to find a club that i can play a few holes on the way home during the week and then maybe 18 early on weekend. I am happy to drive an hour for that pleasure on the weekend. However the few clubs in the area i have reached out too have offered a special deal on joining but to be honest it has not been that special. Annual dues slightly reduced and lower initiation but they then nickle and dime me with charges for club storage, caddies, caddy program, food minimum etc etc. So it adds at least another 2k on the bottom line of what i actually have to pay each year.
Let me pay for what i use and don't make me pay for these extras that i don't need.
So whilst clubs are maybe saying we need more under 35 members from my experience i have not seen many who have really offered a compelling proposition that makes it worth joining a club. I would love to hear of clubs that have made a success of adding a large number of under 35 members.
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Let me pay for what i use and don't make me pay for these extras that i don't need.
This is why the future of member owned private clubs is so tenuous,IMO.
I don't mean to pick on you,this is a very common refrain.But,it runs counter to the premise upon which most clubs were built--golf members subsidize everything else.
Unfortunately,almost every club has spent the last 50+ years building up a system which makes your approach impossible.Allowing you or any prospective member to pick and choose which amenities to pay for would be slow suicide.
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None of this is legal advice, but one thing for US clubs to remember in designing these programs is that tax exempt clubs face certain restrictions on favoring one group of members over another in certain ways. For the current subject, the IRS would look unfondly on a program whereby a certain membership category had privileges essentially equal to regular members but paid far lower dues. These things can be structured to minimize the risk of anything bad happening, but you do need to be a little careful (and the IRS does seem to be stepping up its review of tax exempt entities like presumably wealthy country clubs).
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JM,
you may well be correct. But maybe the clubs will survie longer offering my approach (or remove these extras entirely) than if they stick with the same model and close anyway because their membership gets too old to support the club? I appreciate we can't answer this question.
I understand why clubs have these features and some memebers really like them and feel it adds to the status of the club but if you have an enjoyable course, with friendly and active staff/members you don't really need much else. If you are healthy enough to play golf you can a)get your clubs out of your car b) walk the course pulling/carrying your clubs then these other features are not needed. and i would suggest that I am not the only person out there who thinks like this and it is a reason under 35s don't join clubs if they were in a position to do so.
The best way to attract a younger member IMHO is to make it good value for money now, with a known cost each year and set the future expectation that when you reach a certain age you will be expected to pay more to support the future younger members. I also like the idea of the annual dues also contributing to the balance of the initiation fees.
I live in NYC so its more expensive than other parts of the country. that is my choice and if it means i can't join a club as a result then that is the cost my choosing to live in NYC.
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Just saw this thread... most have been covered already
1) Preferred times for dads with young families
(Living in the south, EVERYONE wants to get out on the course before it gets hot and Dads get screwed, creating tension at home)
2) Smart initiation fee structures
(Covered already)
3) Some relaxing of the rules, but not too much
(There's a fine line between being jeans and cell phone friendly and taking away the luster of a great club. Too casual becomes a slippery slope)
4) Make sure the retired folks don't dominate the club
(Our club on midweek mornings is dominated by a core group of 100 retirees. They are *generally* good about not hogging tee times on weekends. However, sometimes get a little omniprescent. Clubs needs to manage the situation where young guys can get out and hang out.)
5) Family Friendly
(Any amenties that benefit spouses make it easier for Dad to get out to play; get the wife out playing golf programs, kids camps and daycare, great pool facilities, etc...)
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As a 27 year old, I fall squarely into the market and demographic you're discussing here. I'm a young professional, as many of you know a lawyer. I work hard and don't have as much free time as I'd like, but I still love to golf and am happy to be a member of two private clubs. For me, the biggest hurdle is absolutely a high initiation fee. Even if I can afford to pay the fee, I'm looking to buy my first house in the coming years and can't justify taking $20,000 away from that pursuit to join a club. Like many young professionals who are fortunate to have secured decently high-paying jobs, I can afford the monthly mortgage payments, but coming up with the nut for a downpayment is much more difficult. I know I speak for many of my friends as well.
I agree with others here who have said that letting young members pay the initiation fee over time is a great way to attract young members. The total pricetag is less concerning than the immediacy of payment. That said, lower dues are also a must. There are plenty of young people out there who would happily plunk down $15,000 to join a club (if you let them pay it over 5 years) where the dues were $500/month all in.
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I agree with others here who have said that letting young members pay the initiation fee over time is a great way to attract young members. The total pricetag is less concerning than the immediacy of payment. That said, lower dues are also a must. There are plenty of young people out there who would happily plunk down $15,000 to join a club (if you let them pay it over 5 years) where the dues were $500/month all in.
These numbers are exactly the right level imho.
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Mark,
One other point I'd raise is that much more so than older folks, I think younger members run a cost/benefit analysis. They'll join if they feel like they're getting a good deal. For example, I had a friend who recently joined a club where they waived his initiation because he was under 30 (normally it was something on the order of $12,500). His dues were $5,000 a year. He figured that he played 6 rounds a month at roughly $80/round (assume 7 months of golf - April through October). It wasn't exactly $5,000 he was spending, but the difference was minimal enough that he decided it was better to belong somewhere rather than playing random public courses. He also assumed (correctly) that he'd play more golf that way and that the private course was a better layout and maintained better than the public options he was forking over real cash to play.
He felt like he was getting a deal and it made sense from a cost/benefit perspective. The mere fact he looked at it that way makes it different in many respects from older golfers who could never expect a private club membership to roughly equate to the cost of their public golf when the initiation fee was $25,000+ and dues were $10,000 a year. Make someone a deal or show them value and they'll join.
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agree 100% with you David. what course was that? was it in the NYC area?
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I'll try to clean up Lavin and Goldman's recollection of the associate membership at OFCC. It's $10k upfront, dues count towards remaining downstroke which is due at 35. Dues are discounted, but run up gradually until regular dues begin. The downstroke is a big enough number that guys (and a few gals!) are invested in the club and avoids the "rent a club" mentality, but not so much that it scares guys away. Even if you could afford a monster downstroke, there are plenty of other things in this world that are fighting for that money too. Monthly dues ramp up at a steady rate, never making a big leap that would force a guy to make a decision on whether its "just not worth it" anymore.
We do have a fairly large group of associate members, of which I'm one of. As a group, we're not interested in relaxed dress codes or anything else that dumbs down the experience. A little pomp and circumstance is just fine, even appreciated. Club members can now walk and carry at any time, which made a lot of us happy. Booze counting towards the club minimum isn't a bad thing either. Never understood why it wouldn't....you know a guy will order something off the menu if he sticks around for a few beers.
Here's a trick: Treat my wife like a queen at the club. Train the pool staff to remember her name just as well as the golf staff knows mine. Encourage her to bring her friends along as well. I'm a member b/c there are 2 damned good golf courses there. She doesn't care one iota about that, so there has to be something in it for her to appreciate the place. For many guys, you'd have to bulldoze the courses to get them to ever think about quitting....so don't worry about us. Make the wives love the place and you'll win the day.
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Chris - I was thinking of making the same assessment. I know I can talk myself into many cost/benefit analyses around golf spending that the wife would never go for. If a club does not make itself a place that the wife and kids feel comfortable at then they will be in trouble. Sure there will be select old-school places that can survive with no concern of anything other than the golfers, but most clubs do not have that luxury. When I joined my club at the beginnning of htis year there was no way I would have been able to justify the expense just for my golf. Knowing that my wife is comfortable with making use of the facilities and the social options made it an easy decision to join once my kids got a little older (5 and 8 now).
Here's a trick: Treat my wife like a queen at the club. Train the pool staff to remember her name just as well as the golf staff knows mine. Encourage her to bring her friends along as well. I'm a member b/c there are 2 damned good golf courses there. She doesn't care one iota about that, so there has to be something in it for her to appreciate the place. For many guys, you'd have to bulldoze the courses to get them to ever think about quitting....so don't worry about us. Make the wives love the place and you'll win the day.
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My club has very low initiation fee for Junior Members and there dues are almost 1/2 price. The best part is the club takes a percentage of there monthly dues and saves it to be applied to the initiation fee when they turn 35 and have to become a Stock Holder.
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As mentioned earlier child care can be a big draw. A friend was a member of a place in Columbus, OH called Kingsley or similar and they could get 2 hours of free child care and then paid for excess of two hours. This allowed both the husband and wife to play with friends on weekends as well as enjoy couple night on Friday nights if I remember correctly.
This caused lots. Of folks to join and truly use their club. Really helped solidify the social fabric of the club. Lots of couples played Friday nights the kids had a blast and actually looked forward to seeing their friends. Same for the parents who enjoyed golf, time with friends and spend money on dinner and drinks.
It made it very easy for the folks to use the club and spend money but also made the club an integral part of their lives and social networking.
Dan
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This topic has diverged a little bit. I think it's important to bear in mind that the strategies for recruiting junior members are totally differnt for:
1) Young families
2) Young professionals
The two groups have very little in common in what they're looking for except a concern for price. The best strategy is to get young people in before they get married and make it affordable for them to stay afterwards. Hell if someone joins at 25 and pays dues for 10 years, I think the club has done just fine by them without hitting them with a second big fee at 35.
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I am going to reveal my lack of knowledge on the workings of private clubs, but could someone please define what "downstroke" means? This is not a term I am familiar with and as a young person who is looking to join a club soon, I would love to know. Also, as someone who fits the demographic that is being discussed here, I think that many of the ideas put forth here have been very good. I know for myself some of the things that have kept me from joining are:
1) the courses lack the quality to keep my interest.
2) as has been stated, the initial fee is onerous for people who are also in the time of life where they are looking to purchase a home. This has been especially true in recent years.
3) cost/benefit just wasn't there.
4) food and drink minimums just don't make any sense to a person with small kids. It is not often that we go out to eat. It is tough with small kids and a country club setting is not the place to have noisy kids.
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This topic has diverged a little bit. I think it's important to bear in mind that the strategies for recruiting junior members are totally differnt for:
1) Young families
2) Young professionals
The two groups have very little in common in what they're looking for except a concern for price. The best strategy is to get young people in before they get married and make it affordable for them to stay afterwards. Hell if someone joins at 25 and pays dues for 10 years, I think the club has done just fine by them without hitting them with a second big fee at 35.
Great point David. Something else to consider is that 2 groups have very different values to the club. the toung families will spend a lot more on F&D assuming that the club has family faciliities.
Young professionals will be more interested in a golf club while the families may be looking for a country club.
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I am going to reveal my lack of knowledge on the workings of private clubs, but could someone please define what "downstroke" means?
"Downstroke" equals initiation fee...
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I am going to reveal my lack of knowledge on the workings of private clubs, but could someone please define what "downstroke" means?
"Downstroke" equals initiation fee...
Thank you! That is what I thought, but I just hadn't seen an actual definition.
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This topic has diverged a little bit. I think it's important to bear in mind that the strategies for recruiting junior members are totally differnt for:
1) Young families
2) Young professionals
The two groups have very little in common in what they're looking for except a concern for price. The best strategy is to get young people in before they get married and make it affordable for them to stay afterwards. Hell if someone joins at 25 and pays dues for 10 years, I think the club has done just fine by them without hitting them with a second big fee at 35.
Actually these populations probably have a lot of overlap.
David - it sounds like you are discussing something like "sweat equity". This sounds similar to having some percentage of the dues going towards the buy-in for full membership.
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I was recently asked by my club's membership director and committee chairman to be a part of a group discussion for ways to attract young(er) members. As it stands today, I would say that it's a fairly typical country club (golf course, pool, tennis courts, etc) and is mostly geared toward families. However, like most clubs across the country, its average membership age is starting to rise and those in charge would like to see more young members.
Does anyone have any similar experiences with their respective courses/clubs? Have you seen anything in particular that attracts new young members and increases their usage of the club? Do you have any ideas as to how you would attract more young people to join a golf/country club?
Thanks in advance for any help or ideas.
Golf ONLY memberships? Do other country clubs offer non-social memberships, as well as social memberships?
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Exactly. Has anybody joined a club as a golfing member because of the food?
I have essentially a golf only membership. No way could I afford another $150 per month for fancy dinners.
I am guessing many younger folks would feel the same way. Besides- what 28 year old wants to bring a date to a club dining room filled with folks older than his parents? :)
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I am going to reveal my lack of knowledge on the workings of private clubs, but could someone please define what "downstroke" means?
"Downstroke" equals initiation fee...
Thank you! That is what I thought, but I just hadn't seen an actual definition.
Must be a regional expression...the city of broad shoulders and thereabouts. It's not used in the Bay Area, for example.
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This topic has diverged a little bit. I think it's important to bear in mind that the strategies for recruiting junior members are totally differnt for:
1) Young families
2) Young professionals
The two groups have very little in common in what they're looking for except a concern for price. The best strategy is to get young people in before they get married and make it affordable for them to stay afterwards. Hell if someone joins at 25 and pays dues for 10 years, I think the club has done just fine by them without hitting them with a second big fee at 35.
Actually these populations probably have a lot of overlap.
David - it sounds like you are discussing something like "sweat equity". This sounds similar to having some percentage of the dues going towards the buy-in for full membership.
Jim, I'm not sure I see the overlap at all, except for cost. Could you give us an example of how you see that playing out? Someone who's younger and without kids doesn't want to pay for all the family activities. They want good golf and a good bar.
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The private club culture is dying on the vine here in the US. The reasons are manifold, but here are the leaders in the clubhouse:
1. Less disposable income.
2. Fewer passionate players.
3. Family structural changes so dads not as independent.
4. Social lives don't revolve around clubs as much.
As a result, there are far fewer young potential members in the pool. Unless the club is a force in the community, a deemphasis on the family stuff like swimming, tennis and dining is the way to go because the emphasis on golf will keep costs down which will help justify a guy joining a golf club, as opposed to a country club.
This is all good, but there are disturbing signs, like my friend Clint bragging about being able to carry his own clubs at Olympia, which is a cheapskate move that cheats a kid out of a loop. If there is a caddie, a member MUST use his services. If not, go play a public course.
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I have a question for those that are married with families looking into this...
Outside of work (assuming you're working), you spend most of your time already with the family, running around for activities, etc.
Wouldn't you want some "me time" or your own to decompress and get away from it all with a round at your club and not have to worry about bringing the family along? Because you know if the family comes along ... there's no real down time. I've observed this pretty much from friends and family in general.
Just asking and curious to hear how some feel about this.
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I think a club's caddies are a good pool for junior members eventually as well. We have a couple guys who are 25-30 now who are nowhere near affording the 30K over 3 years that Tedesco costs for a guy off the street. So many of our current members were once Tedesco caddies, but the economics have changed a bit, and the caddie-young professional-member procedure doesn't really happen anymore.
Also, even being 31, I like caddies. It's a great traditional "tournament" feeling each weekend (our club is cart or caddie mandatory on weekend mornings). I would advise keeping caddie fees low...we suggest roughly $25-30 for a middle schooler, $40 for a high schooler, and $50+ for a bag room guy or shop asst. Some clubs that say "our caddies get $80 or $100 plus tip" will guarantee the existence of adult caddies, who push the teenage caddies out of the club. You have to protect a future golfer/member pool...if you can solve the problem in my first paragraph!
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This is a wonderful discussion and there are several great ideas:
1. graduated dues for junior members with a portion applied to the membership initiation fee at age 35-40 (or whenever).
2. User friendly staff and intgrating newer members into the club through "mentors".
3. Minimal initial entry fees for younger members. It can be "free" or the members will migrate from place to place chasing the best annual deal.
Customers join a golf club to play golf. The course and its conditions are paramount. Good green/tee conditions, grass (you select the color) in the fairwys and a reasonable pace of play. Period.
Next in consideration is the make-up of the current membership - who exactly is a member? A Fortune 500 CEO is unlikely to join a club many of the contributors to GCA would. Many of us would not fee comfortable to a club where the Fortune 500 CEO is at home in his/her element - there are exceptions of course to this. Members enjoy being with other like-minded members - human nature.
Amenties outside of golf are next. Few will join or leave a club because of the food served, locker facilities or due to/lack of a workout room. Pool and tennis may initially sell a family a membership as hubby sells wife on the "family use" aspect of the pool etc, but these facilities are pure money losers for the club net net. These members leave after a few years.
Just my $0.02.
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Wouldn't you want some "me time" or your own to decompress and get away from it all with a round at your club and not have to worry about bringing the family along? Because you know if the family comes along ... there's no real down time. I've observed this pretty much from friends and family in general.
Patrick,
I get what you are saying, but the problem is the pie doesn't get any bigger. Having a young family (at least in our case) doesn't leave much room for "me time". Not to say it doesn't exist, but for me it usually comes in small bunches and I try to take advantage at those times...not exactly the kind of situation that lends itself to being an active and regular member of a quality golf club. I'm perfectly OK with that.
Also, I try to keep in mind that my kids are only little for a short time and golf will always be there. I love the game and when I get a chance to play or take a mini-trip I enjoy it as much as anybody. So for me, cost would be/is the most influential aspect of joining a club.
In fact, this year our spot came up on the waiting list of a little private golf club out here in the Chicago suburbs. It is actually a unique set up. The course isn't architecturally significant, it is bare bones and very simple as is the clubhouse. The maintenance is simple as well and the seasons tend to determine the playing conditions, but I've never seen the course in less than good shape. There is a traditional 18 hole course and a shorter 9 hole course that is popular with couples, seniors, and families. Many take carts, but the course is as easy a walk as you'll find and there are no cart paths. The yearly fee is incredibly low (only a few hundred dollars) and you pay a very modest green fee ($14-$25) per play. No one here would be wowed by the course or club, but it is a good fit for us at this time. The extremely low investment means we don't have to stress about using the club enough while we are busy with family activities and travel.
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Gentlemen,
Thank you very much for all the very helpful and thoughtful responses. I am formulating a more thoughtful response of my own, but I'm running short on time as I am heading out for a long weekend out of the country.
However, I have a few follow up questions:
1) Terry & Clint, while I appreciate the caddie culture having been one myself and belonging to a club with a long history of supporting the Evans program, are mandatory caddies going to become a major hurdle to attracting and retaining younger members? Outside of a few privileged clubs, how are they going to sell caddie programs to younger guy who might be swayed into not joining a club because of an extra $3-400 in monthly costs during the golfing months? Especially when that amount it more than most junior member monthly dues? Just an honest question...and I would be curious to know what the WGA is doing to combat the potential decline in caddies and caddie programs.
I ask because my club doesn't have a "mandatory" caddie program currently, despite being a fairly healthy caddie club (for Minnesota, but not anywhere near clubs in Chicago like Beverly) in the summer with maybe 30-40 kids showing up for loops. Most of them get out. But there is a movement in the golf committee to make a caddie or cart mandatory before a certain time in order to boost the caddie program. My main worry is that a program like that would strongly discourage younger members to join. Maybe it's not as big of an issue as I think it could be, but doesn't a board of directors eventually have to ask themselves, what's more important?
2) How important are year-round activities in attracting younger members, or developing a stronger membership? Our club is certainly strong into the family/country club realm (well attended pool, tennis, etc..), but other than having (by far) the best sledding hill in the Twin Cities and cross country skiing and snowshoeing...there isn't a whole lot to do. I know paddle tennis is huge in Chicago, but we're on a pretty tight property. Have other people have experience with things that bring people to the club in the winter (in northern states?) Ice rinks? How about indoor golf simulators?
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Amenties outside of golf are next. Few will join or leave a club because of the food served, locker facilities or due to/lack of a workout room. Pool and tennis may initially sell a family a membership as hubby sells wife on the "family use" aspect of the pool etc, but these facilities are pure money losers for the club net net. These members leave after a few years.
Absolute truth--and anyone who's ever served on a club's Board knows it. But few have the balls to try and do something about it.
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The thing that I think that has been overlooked in this conversation is that situations are different across the country, especially when it comes to competition.
While it is all well and good that clubs require a significant, but not a huge, initiation fee, that only works if there are other clubs requiring the same.
In the case of Pat's club and the Twin Cities market, there are a number of clubs that are letting people in with zero initiation fee and a bunch more that have initiation fees of less than $5,000. For a younger guy looking at a club, that's a big deal and can certainly play into the decision of where to join.
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David, you have to remember that #2 (Young Professionals) quickly become #1 (Young Families). If you join as a #1, by the time you are ready to join the full membership, you are probably in the #1 category. At that point, you are not going to be making the decision on your own, and if there is very little benefit for the rest of the family at the club, the chances are, you are going to lose that #2 guy...
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The thing that I think that has been overlooked in this conversation is that situations are different across the country, especially when it comes to competition.
While it is all well and good that clubs require a significant, but not a huge, initiation fee, that only works if there are other clubs requiring the same.
In the case of Pat's club and the Twin Cities market, there are a number of clubs that are letting people in with zero initiation fee and a bunch more that have initiation fees of less than $5,000. For a younger guy looking at a club, that's a big deal and can certainly play into the decision of where to join.
This is very true not just in this discussion but so many of our club base discussions. In my area there are plenty of good deals for juniors and it still isn't really working. There isn't a club in the area I can't just join with no real formality. Think only 1 still has initiation. 2 hours from me there are many courses I couldn't join even if with cost not being an issue.
Dan
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I have a question for those that are married with families looking into this...
Outside of work (assuming you're working), you spend most of your time already with the family, running around for activities, etc.
Wouldn't you want some "me time" or your own to decompress and get away from it all with a round at your club and not have to worry about bringing the family along? Because you know if the family comes along ... there's no real down time. I've observed this pretty much from friends and family in general.
Just asking and curious to hear how some feel about this.
I get this but with busy schedules and limited income it typically gets to be too expensive for that benefit. However if the entire family is using the club and its not just viewed as dads fun it goes along way to making it work.
My kids are now 7,9,11,13 and my wife is happy to have them at the club pool from all day all summer, which frees me up to golf more so its makes the membership more abut all of us. I thought about leaving and it was her who insisted we stay even though she doesn't golf at all.
Dan
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The private club culture is dying on the vine here in the US. The reasons are manifold, but here are the leaders in the clubhouse:
1. Less disposable income.
2. Fewer passionate players.
3. Family structural changes so dads not as independent.
4. Social lives don't revolve around clubs as much.
As a result, there are far fewer young potential members in the pool. Unless the club is a force in the community, a deemphasis on the family stuff like swimming, tennis and dining is the way to go because the emphasis on golf will keep costs down which will help justify a guy joining a golf club, as opposed to a country club.
This is all good, but there are disturbing signs, like my friend Clint bragging about being able to carry his own clubs at Olympia, which is a cheapskate move that cheats a kid out of a loop. If there is a caddie, a member MUST use his services. If not, go play a public course.
That is another direction. Pretty much what my club has become. Has its pros and cons but is a more sustainable business model. A decent no real frills golf club!
Dan
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Pat,
Can I ask a dumb question? Specifically, why is T&CC specifically looking for younger members?
Is it because they are anticipating many 70+ members leaving soon? Is it to help prop up the F&B/Pool operation or is it to increase the quality of play on the course? or maybe some other reason.
the reason i ask is that this may help dictate the direction y'all take.
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Pat,
Can I ask a dumb question? Specifically, why is T&CC specifically looking for younger members?
Is it because they are anticipating many 70+ members leaving soon? Is it to help prop up the F&B/Pool operation or is it to increase the quality of play on the course? or maybe some other reason.
the reason i ask is that this may help dictate the direction y'all take.
Mark,
I think it mostly boils down to only having 21 members under 35 out of 325 golfing members. I don't know the average age but I'm guessing its around 55. T&C is a great neighborhood club which is only 10min from either downtown. However they have had a hard time recruiting younger members to join. As you know, it's a pretty traditional place, and I think they were a little behind the game in tailoring the club to younger tastes as discussed above. But with the membership age creeping up, the club has found it's well of younger new members drying up. Does that help?
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This is all good, but there are disturbing signs, like my friend Clint bragging about being able to carry his own clubs at Olympia, which is a cheapskate move that cheats a kid out of a loop. If there is a caddie, a member MUST use his services. If not, go play a public course.
Next time I see you around riding with a forecaddy I'll remind you of the 3 poor souls you're stiffing. We have to take the same forecaddie with 4 walking members....so save the lecture.
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David, you have to remember that #2 (Young Professionals) quickly become #1 (Young Families). If you join as a #1, by the time you are ready to join the full membership, you are probably in the #1 category. At that point, you are not going to be making the decision on your own, and if there is very little benefit for the rest of the family at the club, the chances are, you are going to lose that #2 guy...
Richard, I absolutely agree with you, but we're talking about recruitment - the act of getting someone through the door and into the club at the outset. You're either #2 or #1 when you enter. You may change later, but only the exceptionally long-minded young professional joins somewhere thinking about how much his kids will enjoy the pool when he's not even married.
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David, you have to remember that #2 (Young Professionals) quickly become #1 (Young Families). If you join as a #1, by the time you are ready to join the full membership, you are probably in the #1 category. At that point, you are not going to be making the decision on your own, and if there is very little benefit for the rest of the family at the club, the chances are, you are going to lose that #2 guy...
Richard, I absolutely agree with you, but we're talking about recruitment - the act of getting someone through the door and into the club at the outset. You're either #2 or #1 when you enter. You may change later, but only the exceptionally long-minded young professional joins somewhere thinking about how much his kids will enjoy the pool when he's not even married.
Agree with David here. Guy #2 is not going to join a family club before he needs to. I've been both Guy #1 and Guy #2--they want totally different experiences. I've been a member of a GCA favorite for half a dozen years now. Our kids were born in '10 and early '12. I used to happily travel ~120 minutes EACH way to play there. I'd do that 25-30 times a year! Now, despite living an hour closer to the club than I used to, I'm lucky if I get there five times a year, and the drive has become annoying. I'm looking at clubs with courses that are probably 2's and 3's on the Doak Scale that have the simple virtues of being less than 15 minutes from my front door and have a pool for the kids.
Patrick Kiser, the way I see it, the "Me Time" you're referring to is much more easily accomplished through golf travel abroad or by visiting the Ballyneals of the world. Hall passes can be obtained for that. It's much more challenging to sell all but the most sainted of wives on a golf-only type of membership when it's also in your own backyard. The resourceful ones, of course, just join one of each--a Winged Foot/Pelham CC arrangement, say.
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Encourage and help your existing younger members to recruit their friends and acquaintenances. Getting the word out, friend to friend, is a great way to recruit. Of course, it begins by making sure that your current younger members feel really welcome and appreciated, and that you are satisfying their needs. In a sense this is obvious (and may have already been pointed out above) but I think it is worth saying out loud.
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Terry - for me a caddie is a nice treat not a part of my essential golfing expenses. If supermarket A let's you buy your groceries, push the trolley with the goods to the car, put them in the trunk and drive off whereas souermarket B requires you to take a kid to push the trolley around the supermarket, out to the car and load the trunk for a compulsory $15 which one does the most business?
Requiring unnecessary and expensive labour crushed the US and European automotive and clothing industries, manufacturers went to cheaper markets. Isn't golf doing the same requiring caddies and requiring F&B spend?
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Mark. VERY well said. I think you have summarized the reason clubs need more young members. Excessive stuff (I wanted to use a stronger word than stuff)
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Pat,
Can I ask a dumb question? Specifically, why is T&CC specifically looking for younger members?
Is it because they are anticipating many 70+ members leaving soon? Is it to help prop up the F&B/Pool operation or is it to increase the quality of play on the course? or maybe some other reason.
the reason i ask is that this may help dictate the direction y'all take.
Mark,
I think it mostly boils down to only having 21 members under 35 out of 325 golfing members. I don't know the average age but I'm guessing its around 55. T&C is a great neighborhood club which is only 10min from either downtown. However they have had a hard time recruiting younger members to join. As you know, it's a pretty traditional place, and I think they were a little behind the game in tailoring the club to younger tastes as discussed above. But with the membership age creeping up, the club has found it's well of younger new members drying up. Does that help?
definitely makes sense. i didnt realize just how old the membership was.
I wonder how much of the issue comes down to location. From what I have seen, younger professionals and families are more likely to be settling on the minneapolis side, rather the st. paul side. I know if it was 10-15 minutes closer for me, I would definitely consider joining.
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This is all good, but there are disturbing signs, like my friend Clint bragging about being able to carry his own clubs at Olympia, which is a cheapskate move that cheats a kid out of a loop. If there is a caddie, a member MUST use his services. If not, go play a public course.
Next time I see you around riding with a forecaddy I'll remind you of the 3 poor souls you're stiffing. We have to take the same forecaddie with 4 walking members....so save the lecture.
Well said! But one can't shout the values of walking and a great caddie program and then pay a $20 trail fee while a kid waits for a bag. Sorry for the lecture, which I should have avoided, but you're at an Evans Scholars club. You should not be carrying your bag when caddies are available. It's unseemly.
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I have heard great things about the Evans Scholarship program. Kudos. I live in the NYC Metro area and the Caddie situation may be a little different. No problem with a young guy saving money for school while also having the opportunity to perhaps earn a scholarship. What pay do they deserve?
I do think it is a little different with the full-time caddie crew who carry double, may earn $100 a bag, try to get you around like you are in a line at Disney-world and are basically on cruise control. This isn't all the guys but certainly enough to be a concern. With all that, I still have no gripes other than perhaps the "service" from time to time.
However, I do think it has gone too far when it is essentially a job bank where guys show up...and you are required to take a guy in November or December etc etc.
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Reading thru the posts, I think it boils down to affordability and an environment that would appeal to an under 30. Hit him with unexpected costs and he will quickly leave. Simplify the bill. Make it fun.
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This is all good, but there are disturbing signs, like my friend Clint bragging about being able to carry his own clubs at Olympia, which is a cheapskate move that cheats a kid out of a loop. If there is a caddie, a member MUST use his services. If not, go play a public course.
Next time I see you around riding with a forecaddy I'll remind you of the 3 poor souls you're stiffing. We have to take the same forecaddie with 4 walking members....so save the lecture.
Well said! But one can't shout the values of walking and a great caddie program and then pay a $20 trail fee while a kid waits for a bag. Sorry for the lecture, which I should have avoided, but you're at an Evans Scholars club. You should not be carrying your bag when caddies are available. It's unseemly.
agreed, with the caveat of during peak golf times. I have no issues with someone carrying at any club at say 4pm .
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I wonder how much of the issue comes down to location. From what I have seen, younger professionals and families are more likely to be settling on the minneapolis side, rather the st. paul side. I know if it was 10-15 minutes closer for me, I would definitely consider joining.
I suspect it has more to do with:
If you have only 21 members under 35, members under 35 might feel a little ... alien to the culture of the club? Birds of a feather flock together, don'tcha know.
And: Your monthlies, once you've passed through the coveted years of "younger," are very high, it seems to me. They've deterred me, at any rate.
But to get back to Mark's point, and to the point I tried to raise earlier: It seems to me that you could get a lot of Golf Only members from both sides of the river. After all, Town & Country might be in St. Paul, but it's closer to DT Mpls. than it is to DT St. Paul.
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Terry - for me a caddie is a nice treat not a part of my essential golfing expenses. If supermarket A let's you buy your groceries, push the trolley with the goods to the car, put them in the trunk and drive off whereas souermarket B requires you to take a kid to push the trolley around the supermarket, out to the car and load the trunk for a compulsory $15 which one does the most business?
Requiring unnecessary and expensive labour crushed the US and European automotive and clothing industries, manufacturers went to cheaper markets. Isn't golf doing the same requiring caddies and requiring F&B spend?
I was going to make the same point but you put it better.
Artificially protecting jobs providing a service for which demand is declining cannot work. Competition will ensure that customers go elsewhere.
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There is no question the divide between club models in the US and GB&I is deep. One model trumps bare bones and the other covers a wide range of extras, however, I think it is fair to say that either way recruiting young people is very difficult. I am starting to think that those who want to belong to clubs are going to have to either pay more, make sacrifices (maybe less extras and more tee times given over to non-members) or think about recruiting, dare I say it, more women. Who knows, it may require all three to remain viable.
I think these are times where cut rate memberships may not be the way to go. Maybe its best to ride out the storm (or at least try to) before giving the kitchen sink away. Once clubs start cutting dues and eliminating initiation fees I think it sends a wrong message and also is risky for the club as they are essentially leveraging the future. I know what I am suggesting ultimately means there will be course closures, but at least in the England, now is the time to consider doing just that - while there is a hot building push going on.
At some point club golfers have to realize that golf is very expensive no matter how one breaks it down and it doesn't have wide appeal in terms of private membership. We can either change what it is we expect from private membership or pay more - it could well be both are will be necessary.
As a believer in keeping the game cheap, I agree entirely with Chappers and Brian. Caddies are a serious luxury that very few golfers can afford (or perhaps more importantly are willing to afford). Nobody should be rebuked for not wanting to lay out the expense - unseemly or not.
Ciao
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Having younger people in decision making roles within a club is something i see as important. A group of 60 year olds sitting around trying to figure out how what younger folks are looking for is never going to be as successful as having someone from that target demographic there to speak first hand. This approach will however require a fair degree of open mindness to new ways of doing some things and golf clubs are notoriously reluctant in this area.
As a question for those that have the benefit of having being part of clubs over a longer period: what percentage of club members have occupied the younger age bracket in years past? Im not talking juniors and school kids, Im wondering about the 20 - 35 year age bracket.
I somehow think this group has probably always been fairly under represented and that lamenting the low numbers we see today it isnt really a new phenomenon. Golf has always been a sport graduated to by many people who are seeking a more sedate sporting pursuit upon winding down from something a little more physical. I personally feel that there are less people taking up the game in the 35 - 45 age group than perhaps there once was and that this was an area responsible for large numbers entering the game and joining clubs.
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As a question for those that have the benefit of having being part of clubs over a longer period: what percentage of club members have occupied the younger age bracket in years past? Im not talking juniors and school kids, Im wondering about the 20 - 35 year age bracket.
Grant,
It was probably 10 years ago that I was asked to be on on a committee for the purpose of attracting younger members. I resigned after the second meeting as there was clearly a group think mentality and they had no interest in changing a thing. The Chairman said something to the effect of "Mike, you have to give it some time", and I simply chose to spend time with my family rather than a bunch of guys who were never going change.
The difference today is clubs NEED younger members. Ten years ago, not so much. If I was a younger guy now approached by the Board, I would say something like "Make me Chairman of the Admissions Committee, and give me 10 memberships in a new membership category with restructured financial terms, full rights and I have total control of who I invite to those memberships, in writing."
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One factor that I don't think have been mentioned is the fact that some clubs say they need 5 letters of recommendation from current members. A 25 year old new to town isn't exactly going to have many contacts with guys over 65 that make up the membership of the club.
These days, a club should take anybody that has an interest, has a good credit score, and loves golf. Obviously, this doesn't apply to clubs with a 10 year waiting list, but those are extremely rare nowadays.
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Do you know the average age of a member of your club? I have heard a lot of courses where its over 60. I can only deduce that clubs with this situation are heading for the icebergs. 90% of our members are under 60 and our averaged age is 47. 4% are over 70, 5% are over 65, 79% are under 55, 64% are under 50, 49% are under 45 35% are under 40, 22% are under 35.
Only 12% are under 30 and this band has incredible movements in new members joining and leaving (often quite suddenly) the problem is very simple really.....its girls and they have 'things' that attract our wannabe golfers away from the game.
I dont see the US Golf buisness model working into the future, friendships around the corner will be lesser with the internet where we are all likely to make friends, relationships, date and the younger generation will marry people from ....'miles away'. I dont see people paying the huge initiation drops with the uncertainty and I agree with a posts that want to join a golf club to play golf. Add ons will put more people off that attract.
In the UK I am guessing 75% of clubs dont have a joining fee anymore, perhaps 10 years ago it was 25%. New members really hate paying this, we charge a joining fee, we spread it over 5 or so years but I reckon I could double the amount of new members with no joining fee and I lose potential new members to other clubs that dont charge one.
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I'll gladly play a public course over paying thousands of dollars to belong to a place where I am pressurised to do things against my will. Cheating a kid out of a loop because someone prefers to carry their bag or may be a little tight on funds? Seems a little perverse to me - it's a free market, supply and demand - maybe he thinks the caddies at Olympia are rubbish? There are a lot of disengaged and incompetent caddies out there, I am sure you have noticed.
Before I become the poster boy for the anti caddie movement: I enjoy using our caddies at OFCC and do so the vast majority of the time. However, I also enjoy a late afternoon round as a single with my own bag slung over my shoulder....perhaps it does remind me of the time when I spent every waking summertime day at my local muni.
The Evans Foundation is a wonderful organization which I support both by utilizing their services and by writing an annual check. I've yet to not enjoy a round with a local caddie and have the ability to do so every time I go out and play.
I think that covers all the bases 8)
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I have been interested in this thread.
One category of golfer that seems to get lost in the shuffle is the high school competitor who does not play competitive college golf or does so for a year or two. I've seen it time and time again where a kid is golf nut, improves dramatically until around age 16 and then bumps into a point where improvement does not come as easily and the gap between the individual and a really good player becomes obvious. I would guess that 50% of the people I have known that fall into that category drop out of the game during college as it becomes difficult to enjoy a casual version of the game, it is expensive and such individuals are dispersed enough that it is not always easy to find the right playing companions.
I've got to think there is a way to tap into those individuals. Most still love the game. They are potential club champions (particularly at any club where Pat is the champ) and, with some maturity, potential real leaders in a golf club.
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Terry - does that mean the member who doesn't stop for a beer after his round or take a shower as he's in a hurry mean he's cheating the barman and locker room attendant out of a tip?
I do not know the ins and outs of the Evans Scholarship but could a member make a donation (tax) of say $5 if he plays without a caddie towards the fund?
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The costs are too high (for services, caddies, agronomics, etc.) to go occasionally.
My generation is far more active in family life.
You must attract my entire family to get me to join.
I have the income and love of the game, but I can't justify the expense when there are other activities we can do together for less.
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Excuse me if this point has already been made as I haven't read the entire thread.
But one piece of advice I'd give to members of a club who feel like they need to attract younger members is to be sure you actually want the members and not just their dues. If you want younger members but the old guard has the all the prime tee times and other parts of the club locked up, don't expect new members to sign up and wait their turn.
I've seen this when a club decided to open up some times to the public because they needed the money, but didn't really want the "outsiders" on the property. Didn't take long for the "outsiders" to pick up on the member's attitudes and the program eventually failed. Clubs need revenue and young new members bring that, but they will not stick around, or bring in more friends if they are treated like "step children". The old member might have paid 50K to join and the new guy might be only paying 10K (and paying over time), but that's a macro economic issue, and the kiss of death is treating the new guy like he is a lessor member.
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Maybe the issue isn't attracting younger members but actually member retention and new members from other clubs, new residents, etc. I hear clubs talk about being worried that the average member age is 50 something or 60 something. That's not old and folks in good health play often times until the very end.
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The "younger" member is substantively different, today, than generations ago.
In the 60's, younger members teed off around 9:00, after the regular or older members teed off.
They played 18, had lunch, then went back out and played another 18 before the women teed off at 2:00.
Today, clubs have had to open earlier and accommodate earlier tee times specifically for younger members, who are now teeing off at 6:30-7:00, so that they can get home by 10:30-11:00 in order to "share" family responsibilities.
This has caused clubs to experience different degrees of stress.
The course has to be prepared earlier and weekend local disturbing the peace statutes prevent clubs from mowing greens to their desired daily height in preparation for the days play.
It's also caused a compression in tee times.
Now, more and more clubs are teeing off both the 1st and 10th tees for about two hours then shutting down to permit the "crossover",
So, members can no longer come up and tee off at their leisure.
Designated starting times prevent that.
As a result of "required tee times", clubs have lost the sense of general commraderie, where members picked up games randomly, even over breakfast on the morning of play. Now, with required tee times, games are made well in advance and there's a tendency to form regular games which result in cliques, which isn't in the clubs best interest.
Dinning facilities have to be open earlier, adding to labor costs for the most non-profitable meal of the day.
Their early utilization patterns result in them not using the club for lunch or dinner.
To meet their minimums, they usually attend specialty nights, like late Sunday afternoon Bar-B-Q's.
In addition, you don't seem to see them playing later in the afternoons on weekdays because they're attending their kids after school activities, or, as a dual income family, they're tending to their "shared" responsibilities.
Their utilization patterns are in conflict with the structure and historic operation of the club.
The best source of young members is other young members, their peers.
But let's not forget, being a member of a local club is a luxury.
Let's not also forget that if you cater to the younger member, you don't want to alienate your established member,
Neither I, nor my peer group wants to have lunch sitting next to a screaming kid, nor do we want to talk in whispered tones, lest some couples take offense to the topics we're discussing or the language we use.
Junior members, the sons and daughters of existing members used to be the lifeblood of the club's future.
Now, club's need to broaden their appeal without eroding their core values or displacing their long time members.
Clearly it's a challenge, culturally and financially.
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Well said Pat.
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[quote author=Patrick_Mucci link=topic=53714.msg1236265#msg1236265 date=13496991
The "younger" member is substantively different, today, than generations ago. . . .
The best source of young members is other young members, their peers. . . .
[/quote]
Pat has it. What do the younger members want? Look to those you have. Are you satisfying their interests? All in, it's a social thing. Make the younger members happy and they will recruit their friends, their peers.
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My wife and I joined a club in the last few months. We are both in our 20's, both working and without kids. We move every 3-4 years so when joining we were basically making a long term decision. Our reason for joining basically it boiled down to the fact that we could see ourselves there when we retire until we die due to a great course and what we considered great value. Until we spend more time there the club offered a lower cost social membership and then an arrangement with numerous reciprocals around the country for a nominal fee. If it weren't for the reciprocals I don't think my wife would have agreed to joining.
I recently read nearly 33% of the members are over 70, and less than 14% are under 50. I imagine there are only a few of us in our 20's. Apparently like most clubs they are trying to attract younger members, but we weren't recruited or offered any special packages.
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PCraig: I belong to a club in Baltimore that initiated a summer membership program that gave full prvileges for young members and their families from May through Labor Day. There was no intiation fee and they paid reduced dues for the program. They were given member numbers and full charging privileges with no minimum. The club conducted several family nights and special events for families with young kids. The benefit of this structure is that it gave new young members and the club a test run. The club is able to evaluate if the prospective member is a good fit with the club and the prospect has time to meet other members and officers of the club before going through the formal membership process with letters, meetings etc. If the club is not a good fit for the prospect, for whatever reason--dues, lack of use, rule restrictions-- it becomes very clear during the trial run. The way to run this though is to only allow the summer membership for one season, and then have the prospect make decision about membership. The dues paid during the summer program are fully credited to the regular intiation fee and the prospect is given the option to spread the remaining intiation with no interest.
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Here in Germany initiation fees or other long-term commitments are on the way out. The world has changed.
Young professionals cannot expect to live and work at the same place for many years to come. The company that you join as a young man or woman and that allows you to settle down with family does not exist anymore. In fact, nowadays most companies are younger and will die sooner than most of the people working there.
There is your answer for attracting younger members. Don't tie them down. Make it possible for them to leave on reasonably short notice.
Ulrich
Ulrich, this same dynamic is in large part responsible for the shift away from homeownership in the U. S. Notwithstanding record low interest rates, the 25-35 crowd is not interested in homeownership, having seen their homeowner friends learn the hard way that real estate values do in fact decline and an underwater mortgagte is a great impediment to relocation.
Like home ownership, club membership might no longer be the American dream.
Radical thought of the day: Wasn't the initiation fee originally intended to capitalize a new club? Or at least weed out the riff-raff? Has its time passed altogether? Why not take the previous year's operating expenses plus a modest capital reserve plus a 5% inflation factor, divide by the number of members, and then bill each member 1/12th of the total each month of the following year. Then have a resignation fee equal to 3 months' dues to mitigate attrition. You could even include a modest redemption fund to reimburse over time those existing members who paid an initiation deposit, and a sinking fund for those clubs stupid enough to actually borrow money.
Mike
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PCraig: I belong to a club in Baltimore that initiated a summer membership program that gave full prvileges for young members and their families from May through Labor Day. There was no intiation fee and they paid reduced dues for the program. They were given member numbers and full charging privileges with no minimum. The club conducted several family nights and special events for families with young kids. The benefit of this structure is that it gave new young members and the club a test run. The club is able to evaluate if the prospective member is a good fit with the club and the prospect has time to meet other members and officers of the club before going through the formal membership process with letters, meetings etc. If the club is not a good fit for the prospect, for whatever reason--dues, lack of use, rule restrictions-- it becomes very clear during the trial run. The way to run this though is to only allow the summer membership for one season, and then have the prospect make decision about membership. The dues paid during the summer program are fully credited to the regular intiation fee and the prospect is given the option to spread the remaining intiation with no interest.
Sinclair,if you don't mind,would you describe this program a little more?
I'd be curious if there was a limit to the number of prospective members,if there was an age limit,if there were restrictions/limits to your use of the club/golf course?
If this club is member owned,I wish I could've been a fly on the wall at the Board meeting where this was proposed.This is the kind of offer that drives some members crazy.
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I recently had occasion to play with a guy who was a member at a well known club that has been discussed on this board. He just got out after 48 years knowing that on his 50th anniversary his dues would be dropped to 50% going forward as written in the the by-laws and meant to be a thank you to anyone that had supported the club in that fashion. He told me that he was disgusted with the sorts of enticements that were being dangled to new members and thought that it diluted the value of membership. Additionally he was unhappy with the level of capital improvements being made that were not directly related to the golf course. He advised that he thought newer members should be required to have more skin in the game so as not to get in only to get out a short time later. He mentioned what the initiation was in 2005 compared to now which was certainly a drastic reduction. Not easy to please everyone.
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It's a matter of proper selection. You have to find the right younger members, the guys who won't go to every little league or lacrosse game, the guys who don't care if their wives don't get to meet everybody else's wives every weekend at the pool. The young guys who don't come up with wimpy excuses and then don't play in the member-guest. The young guys who love meeting and playing with as many other members as possible. In other words, guys who will never be told to "grow a pair".
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Terry. To be blunt, that attitude would turn off most guys under 60, let alone 20, from wanting to join your golf club. Do you put your waitresses in mini skirts and heels too?
PS. The reason I don't play in my own member guest is because I cannot afford it. I hope you accept my excuse.
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I think the program at Sinclair's club sounds good. Any guess Sinclair as to what percentage actually join? it would also be incumbent on the club to have the one year dues be enough that folks would not "join" on a lark.
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I recently had occasion to play with a guy who was a member at a well known club that has been discussed on this board. He just got out after 48 years knowing that on his 50th anniversary his dues would be dropped to 50% going forward as written in the the by-laws and meant to be a thank you to anyone that had supported the club in that fashion. He told me that he was disgusted with the sorts of enticements that were being dangled to new members and thought that it diluted the value of membership. Additionally he was unhappy with the level of capital improvements being made that were not directly related to the golf course. He advised that he thought newer members should be required to have more skin in the game so as not to get in only to get out a short time later. He mentioned what the initiation was in 2005 compared to now which was certainly a drastic reduction. Not easy to please everyone.
How does the initiation fee today compare to 48 years ago? Sounds like this guy had alot of hangups with the club, which is unfortunate after that long, but you're right - not easy to please everyone.
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The economy changes all. Initial fees are like the market in that they vary over time based on demand and market conditions
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I recently had occasion to play with a guy who was a member at a well known club that has been discussed on this board. He just got out after 48 years knowing that on his 50th anniversary his dues would be dropped to 50% going forward as written in the the by-laws and meant to be a thank you to anyone that had supported the club in that fashion. He told me that he was disgusted with the sorts of enticements that were being dangled to new members and thought that it diluted the value of membership. Additionally he was unhappy with the level of capital improvements being made that were not directly related to the golf course. He advised that he thought newer members should be required to have more skin in the game so as not to get in only to get out a short time later. He mentioned what the initiation was in 2005 compared to now which was certainly a drastic reduction. Not easy to please everyone.
This gentleman is correct, that is the way to do it and some clubs still do. The problem is most clubs can't not get that to work so they need to develope a different plan or fold.
Dan
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It's a matter of proper selection. You have to find the right younger members, the guys who won't go to every little league or lacrosse game,
Wow.
I really have to say that I don't regret any of that. I am just back from a college athletic recruiting trip with my older son at the United States Naval Academy and George Washington University, and it was one of the great experiences of MY LIFE. Missing a member guest or two was an easy price to pay.
Please feel free to de-select me.
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It's a matter of proper selection. You have to find the right younger members, the guys who won't go to every little league or lacrosse game, the guys who don't care if their wives don't get to meet everybody else's wives every weekend at the pool. The young guys who don't come up with wimpy excuses and then don't play in the member-guest. The young guys who love meeting and playing with as many other members as possible. In other words, guys who will never be told to "grow a pair".
Do you still talk to your ex-wives and kids?
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Pat,
Can I ask a dumb question? Specifically, why is T&CC specifically looking for younger members?
Is it because they are anticipating many 70+ members leaving soon? Is it to help prop up the F&B/Pool operation or is it to increase the quality of play on the course? or maybe some other reason.
the reason i ask is that this may help dictate the direction y'all take.
Mark,
I think it mostly boils down to only having 21 members under 35 out of 325 golfing members. I don't know the average age but I'm guessing its around 55. T&C is a great neighborhood club which is only 10min from either downtown. However they have had a hard time recruiting younger members to join. As you know, it's a pretty traditional place, and I think they were a little behind the game in tailoring the club to younger tastes as discussed above. But with the membership age creeping up, the club has found it's well of younger new members drying up. Does that help?
definitely makes sense. i didnt realize just how old the membership was.
I wonder how much of the issue comes down to location. From what I have seen, younger professionals and families are more likely to be settling on the minneapolis side, rather the st. paul side. I know if it was 10-15 minutes closer for me, I would definitely consider joining.
Mark,
As Dan noted in a later post, T&C is just about in the middle of town and is closer to most of Minneapolis than a lot of the clubs in the western suburbs. It's especially close to a couple areas where quite a few young people generally settle in the area post-College; downtown (Loring Park & the Warehouse District) and South Minneapolis. However, even though the club is literally 300 yards over a bridge from Minneapolis, the widespread regional mental roadblock of not crossing the river for anything seems to stand in the way. ;) Of course, historically, almost all of the membership came from the St. Paul side, but that percentage has been shrinking as more members are coming from South Minneapolis.
Maybe it's just because I'm used to sitting in my car for hours daily in Chicago, but the roughly 15-20 min it takes me to get to T&C doesn't seem so bad! :)
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I wonder how much of the issue comes down to location. From what I have seen, younger professionals and families are more likely to be settling on the minneapolis side, rather the st. paul side. I know if it was 10-15 minutes closer for me, I would definitely consider joining.
I suspect it has more to do with:
If you have only 21 members under 35, members under 35 might feel a little ... alien to the culture of the club? Birds of a feather flock together, don'tcha know.
And: Your monthlies, once you've passed through the coveted years of "younger," are very high, it seems to me. They've deterred me, at any rate.
But to get back to Mark's point, and to the point I tried to raise earlier: It seems to me that you could get a lot of Golf Only members from both sides of the river. After all, Town & Country might be in St. Paul, but it's closer to DT Mpls. than it is to DT St. Paul.
Dan,
That was a primary purpose of the meeting. How do to tailor the club to be more attractive to younger members, as at only ~20 younger members, there is something obviously off or behind the curve in the culture, amenities, etc.
I'm not sure there is any chance of a "golf only" membership at T&C, or any Country Club-set up. The clubhouse and dining facilities need the usage a lot more than the golf course does, which already supports itself pretty well through 8 outings a year, guest fees, events, etc. Hence why a lot of clubs have "social" memberships which allow people to use all of the facilities except the golf course.
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Ah, the perils of texting after a cocktail! My post was inartfully overstated to make the point that in the "old days" men in the family called the shots and did what they wanted to do with their spare time. My dad wasn't at many of my youth sports events and I can't say that I suffered as a result. Nowadays, with all of the demands on dads to be at the games and to follow their kids on travel teams, there's less time for hanging at the club. Sorry if I offended anybody by suggesting that he was a wimp for caring about his kids.
I'd continue, but I'm getting ready to watch Spongebob with my little guy who turned 16 months the other day.
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I recently had occasion to play with a guy who was a member at a well known club that has been discussed on this board. He just got out after 48 years knowing that on his 50th anniversary his dues would be dropped to 50% going forward as written in the the by-laws and meant to be a thank you to anyone that had supported the club in that fashion. He told me that he was disgusted with the sorts of enticements that were being dangled to new members and thought that it diluted the value of membership. Additionally he was unhappy with the level of capital improvements being made that were not directly related to the golf course. He advised that he thought newer members should be required to have more skin in the game so as not to get in only to get out a short time later. He mentioned what the initiation was in 2005 compared to now which was certainly a drastic reduction. Not easy to please everyone.
This might be the problem: the legacy members think of (and likely treat with disdain or segregation) the new generation members as second class citizens, creating a bifurcated membership. How about something like an over/under golf tourney where old members must be paired with young members.
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Pat,
Can I ask a dumb question? Specifically, why is T&CC specifically looking for younger members?
Is it because they are anticipating many 70+ members leaving soon? Is it to help prop up the F&B/Pool operation or is it to increase the quality of play on the course? or maybe some other reason.
the reason i ask is that this may help dictate the direction y'all take.
Mark,
I think it mostly boils down to only having 21 members under 35 out of 325 golfing members. I don't know the average age but I'm guessing its around 55. T&C is a great neighborhood club which is only 10min from either downtown. However they have had a hard time recruiting younger members to join. As you know, it's a pretty traditional place, and I think they were a little behind the game in tailoring the club to younger tastes as discussed above. But with the membership age creeping up, the club has found it's well of younger new members drying up. Does that help?
definitely makes sense. i didnt realize just how old the membership was.
I wonder how much of the issue comes down to location. From what I have seen, younger professionals and families are more likely to be settling on the minneapolis side, rather the st. paul side. I know if it was 10-15 minutes closer for me, I would definitely consider joining.
Mark,
As Dan noted in a later post, T&C is just about in the middle of town and is closer to most of Minneapolis than a lot of the clubs in the western suburbs. It's especially close to a couple areas where quite a few young people generally settle in the area post-College; downtown (Loring Park & the Warehouse District) and South Minneapolis. However, even though the club is literally 300 yards over a bridge from Minneapolis, the widespread regional mental roadblock of not crossing the river for anything seems to stand in the way. ;) Of course, historically, almost all of the membership came from the St. Paul side, but that percentage has been shrinking as more members are coming from South Minneapolis.
Maybe it's just because I'm used to sitting in my car for hours daily in Chicago, but the roughly 15-20 min it takes me to get to T&C doesn't seem so bad! :)
Its a fair point. I think the challenge becomes how do you get the young people while they are still living in downtown/ S. Minneapolis but before they move out to suburbia. The challenge is that many people won't have the money to join until they are near 28-30, the exact same time they are moving out to suburbs with kids.
I think T&C would make alot of sense geographically for a single young professional, but I am not sure if these same people would find such a family focused club (with the dues to support, tennis, pool, etc.) as attractive.
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I think T&C would make alot of sense geographically for a single young professional, but I am not sure if these same people would find such a family focused club (with the dues to support, tennis, pool, etc.) as attractive.
Exactly. This is why I wondered (and continue to wonder) if "country clubs" ever offer Golf Only memberships, as they offer Social Only memberships.
Though I'm not "younger" and can't help you with that problem, I would certainly consider a Golf Only membership, if it meant having access to a very good golf course and not having to pay the dues required to support a bunch of amenities that mean nothing to me.
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I think T&C would make alot of sense geographically for a single young professional, but I am not sure if these same people would find such a family focused club (with the dues to support, tennis, pool, etc.) as attractive.
Exactly. This is why I wondered (and continue to wonder) if "country clubs" ever offer Golf Only memberships, as they offer Social Only memberships.
Though I'm not "younger" and can't help you with that problem, I would certainly consider a Golf Only membership, if it meant having access to a very good golf course and not having to pay the dues required to support a bunch of amenities that mean nothing to me.
You'd see a lot of pools bulldozed, banquet rooms closed and dinner service discontinued if this sort of membership were offered at traditional country clubs. It is more often the case that the people that just use the facility for golf are the main underwriters for the services that they seldom use. I'm an example of this at Beverly, where I haven't eaten dinner more than five times in my twenty five years of membership and where I've only exposed my swollen, white abdomen at the pool on two or three occasions (mercifully, of course). Personally, I don't have any problem with paying for services that are provided mainly for others, because I want those members who use the services to continue to be able to enjoy them, but a "golf only" membership would really help people define what they really want out of a country club these days.
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I think T&C would make alot of sense geographically for a single young professional, but I am not sure if these same people would find such a family focused club (with the dues to support, tennis, pool, etc.) as attractive.
Exactly. This is why I wondered (and continue to wonder) if "country clubs" ever offer Golf Only memberships, as they offer Social Only memberships.
Though I'm not "younger" and can't help you with that problem, I would certainly consider a Golf Only membership, if it meant having access to a very good golf course and not having to pay the dues required to support a bunch of amenities that mean nothing to me.
You'd see a lot of pools bulldozed, banquet rooms closed and dinner service discontinued if this sort of membership were offered at traditional country clubs. It is more often the case that the people that just use the facility for golf are the main underwriters for the services that they seldom use. I'm an example of this at Beverly, where I haven't eaten dinner more than five times in my twenty five years of membership and where I've only exposed my swollen, white abdomen at the pool on two or three occasions (mercifully, of course). Personally, I don't have any problem with paying for services that are provided mainly for others, because I want those members who use the services to continue to be able to enjoy them, but a "golf only" membership would really help people define what they really want out of a country club these days.
Good point. The challenge is that i actually think these amenties don't mean as much to the 2nd generation (and potential members). For instance, my wife and daughter are often invited to the pool of the top 100 country club which is often discussed on this board. When you get there, you see that the majority of people there arent members but the grown children of members who are sponsored there. As a result, these children have even less reason to join on a full time basis.
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I recently had occasion to play with a guy who was a member at a well known club that has been discussed on this board. He just got out after 48 years knowing that on his 50th anniversary his dues would be dropped to 50% going forward as written in the the by-laws and meant to be a thank you to anyone that had supported the club in that fashion. He told me that he was disgusted with the sorts of enticements that were being dangled to new members and thought that it diluted the value of membership. Additionally he was unhappy with the level of capital improvements being made that were not directly related to the golf course. He advised that he thought newer members should be required to have more skin in the game so as not to get in only to get out a short time later. He mentioned what the initiation was in 2005 compared to now which was certainly a drastic reduction. Not easy to please everyone.
This might be the problem: the legacy members think of (and likely treat with disdain or segregation) the new generation members as second class citizens, creating a bifurcated membership. How about something like an over/under golf tourney where old members must be paired with young members.
Michael, this is certainly a problem at my local club. Several years ago, there was a waiting list and a significant initiation fee - today, you can be playing golf the same day, no initiation fee, with a reduced monthly bill for a two year "probation" period - at that time, if you choose to stay, your monthly bill goes to the standard. I would guess a similar scenario has played out at a lot of clubs - probably not many of the elite clubs we all talk about on here - but clubs in second tier cities that are competing with multiple other clubs in the same vicinity. My local club also committed a lot of the "sins" we talk about here - big clubhouse, 36 holes, swimming pool, tennis courts, etc. – too much debt and a declining membership created a lot of problems. I joined at just about the bottom right after I moved here from the east coast - I benefited from the downturn just the way I benefited when I bought my house here after the bubble burst and the economy went south. When I am playing a round with someone new, one of the first questions I get asked is - "when did you join?" The question is both to break the ice, but the hidden agenda is usually to find out how much I have "invested" in the club. Most of the guys are pretty good about it, you know it bothers them a bit, but they understand why things are the way they are. Every once in awhile you get someone who is downright hostile about the whole thing, I am certainly empathetic, but it is always a little uncomfortable...
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Chris these "hostile" members were part of the club when things went wrong, they should be looking in the mirror and examining their collective failings, rather than taking it out on the newer members who are helping the club to pay it's way out of a hole.
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Chris these "hostile" members were part of the club when things went wrong, they should be looking in the mirror and examining their collective failings, rather than taking it out on the newer members who are helping the club to pay it's way out of a hole.
+1
At my club, the guy who, as president, made the deal to borrow over a million dollars in 1988 to build a clubhouse that was a millstone around the club's neck 20+ years later actually stood up in one of our last members meetings and proclaimed his pride at having done that deed.
I didn't have the balls to stand up and say, "So you're the dumbass who put us on the road to failure?"
He's a heck of a nice guy, and was involved in the failed negotiations with the bank that resulted in foreclosure, but he and about 90% of the people who served on the board over those years still don't realize that they caused this to happen.
K
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Ken, Chris, Mark, et. al.,
The more I think of this dilemma, the more I think it occurred because the generation in charge, the generation who ran the clubs and incurred all the debt, didn't listen to the wisdom of the generation that went through the depression.
My dad was 17 in 1929.
He had been orphaned for three years.
He told me how difficult life was for him and his four younger brothers and sisters.
How they found food, eating out of garbage cans, how, like Harry Potter they had to go live with others, how my uncle Tony ran away from one of those homes and hopped a freight train south, only to be surprised one morning when the railroad guards opened the door to the box car and shot and killed the other hobos, sparing him because he was a child.
They had a hard early life and they never forgot it and the values they learned from that life.
They were "security" conscious.
My father and many of his generation feared debt and avoided it if they had a choice.
Many's the time that his peers related horror stories about the Great Depression to me and my friends.
They wanted their experience and their message to sink in, and it did with me.
For the most part, that generation was fiscally conservative.
The next two generations, less so.
Especially with other people's money.
Club after club, other than the old line clubs, spent money on anything and everything.
Capital and operating budgets soared, suddenly, clubs had to be all things to all people.
Every members whim had to be satisfied, so budgets became bloated as facilities and operations expanded.
But things were happening that club leaderships were ignoring.
Utilization of the club facilities was changing drastically.
Dual income earners had more shared responsibilities and clubs were no longer the focal point of the community,
Hence younger members arrived early, played golf and returned home and the older members were eating at the abundance of available restaurants and not from the same menu week in and week out.
As expenses increased, derivative members, always the life blood of clubs, diminished in number.
And, clubs for the most part weren't "family" friendly with minimum ages for golf, pool, dining and licker room access.
So, the dynamic was changing, utilization was changing, but, SPENDING was up.
Because clubs were now populated less and less by generations of members, there wan't the same love for the entity, so when big projects loomed, rather than pay as you go, debt, other than the mortgage, became the rave.
I remember clubs holding mortgage burning parties when their mortgage got paid off.
When getting rid of the financial albatross around the clubs neck was a big deal and a reason to celebrate.
But, the next generation felt differently. Spend now, get bigger and better, indulge ourselves and we'll pay for it later.
The voices of reason, the voices of the old timers were being ignored in favor of the fervor to get everything they wanted.
So, they spent money on anything and everything and they financed it with debt
No problem when the economy and business were good, just raise the dues and assess.
Enter the current downturn in the economy (I blame Greenspan ;D)
Members leave, but the burden of debt and the high cost of operations doesn't remain static, per member, with fewer members, so a downward spiral of escalating costs per member causes more members to leave, causing the burden per member to increase.......
Along with this, members got older, many retired, some died, but their ranks weren't replaced by an equal number of younger members due to costs. And in many cases, the clubs were so strapped that they couldn't redeem the departing members bond and many new young perspective members couldn't afford to pay the bond
Note: most clubs gave deep discounts to derivatives who joined, but not to their peer age group, another mistake.
The combination of ignorance and arrogance coupled with the loss of financial discipline has led to the current situation and the desperate quest for new, younger members.
But here's the best part.
Knowing all of this, many clubs won't change to meet the new dynamic.
They won't change their operation.
They want to preserve their "culture" even if that leads to the path of their demise.
If I was a young perspective member, I'd look at the club's debt, their financials and their culture.
Clubs that run prudent, trim operations, absent debt, should survive and thrive in the future.
End of rant ;D
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Very well said Pat, thank you for the rant :)
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Pat - I agree - that summarizes everything really well.
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Clubs that run prudent, trim operations, absent debt, should survive and thrive in the future.
Winged Foot would appear to meet "The Mucci Test" (as of 2007):
http://www.faqs.org/tax-exempt/NY/Winged-Foot-Golf-Club-Inc.html#balanceSheets_a
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All efforts should go to attracting active members who will use the club. When times get tough the members who play regularly and participate don't leave unless it is to a club that may be more attractive for any number of reasons.
Once you get a member there should be just as a concerted effort to get them engrained into the club and it's traditions.
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All efforts should go to attracting active members who will use the club. When times get tough the members who play regularly and participate don't leave unless it is to a club that may be more attractive for any number of reasons.
Not true. Financial issues often result in members leaving
Once you get a member there should be just as a concerted effort to get them engrained into the club and it's traditions.
Mike, finances can undo all the ingraining in the world
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I am the GM of perhaps the youngest club in the US. Our average age of the entire membership is 45 and the average age of a member when they join is 37. Our initiation fee is $22,000. Everyone pays that in the end. We defer it for young folks (and charge 5% interest) and encourage financing. 29 and under is 8,000 (3,000 down… financed for 48 months… lump sum payment every 12 months), then $7,000 more at age 30, $7,000 more at age 35. 34 and under is $15,000 (3,000 down… financed for 48 months… lump sum payment every 12 months), $7,000 more at age 35. Members under the age of 35 get a 30% break on dues. They are $350. Our maintenance budget is over $1 million. We are obsessed with keeping our dues low. We are full and have been for about 3 years (since the recession hit the Charlotte banks).
We have a state of the art practice facility and a beautiful golf course. We have a great swimming pool. We do not have tennis. We do not have fitness. Our dining is golf-oriented with families welcome. We do not have formal dining. We have Easter. We have Santa Claus. We have lawn parties in the summer and “band-oriented” events in the Spring and Fall outside (Shrimpfest, Crabfest, Oyster Roast, Pig Roast). That is it.
We specialize in families whose children are too young to 1) enjoy the other amenities at the full service clubs and 2) cannot get to those clubs by themselves. We lose about 15 members per year to the big clubs (Charlotte CC, Quail Hollow and Myers Park CC) which is an important part of our business plan. They call us the “junior varsity” which is fine by me. I am not sure I can service someone with that much disposable income.
We do not offer daycare. We do not try to compete with the multitude of other attractions in and around Charlotte on a regular basis. Our food minimum is miniscule ($25 per month). We have events for serious golfers (Member Member, Club Championship, Four Ball Invitational). We have fun golf events (Couples Nine and Dine, Member Guest, Guest Days, Ryder Cup). It has worked out very well. We are a big walking club but do not have mandatory caddies. Folks are allowed to bring their own push carts and we encourage walking.
The younger members are our biggest spenders. They spend the most on carts, guests, food and beverage by a LONG SHOT. How do you attract them? You adapt your club to their wants and needs. The old guard isn’t going anywhere. The last thing you try to do is get them to adapt to YOUR lifestyle. You allow cell phones on vibrate. You install WiFi. You allow blue jeans and hold either family-oriented or music-oriented events. The old members need to adapt to the YOUNG members… not the other way around.
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I am the GM of perhaps the youngest club in the US. Our average age of the entire membership is 45 and the average age of a member when they join is 37. Our initiation fee is $22,000. Everyone pays that in the end. We defer it for young folks (and charge 5% interest) and encourage financing. 29 and under is 8,000 (3,000 down… financed for 48 months… lump sum payment every 12 months), then $7,000 more at age 30, $7,000 more at age 35. 34 and under is $15,000 (3,000 down… financed for 48 months… lump sum payment every 12 months), $7,000 more at age 35. Members under the age of 35 get a 30% break on dues. They are $350. Our maintenance budget is over $1 million. We are obsessed with keeping our dues low. We are full and have been for about 3 years (since the recession hit the Charlotte banks).
We have a state of the art practice facility and a beautiful golf course. We have a great swimming pool. We do not have tennis. We do not have fitness. Our dining is golf-oriented with families welcome. We do not have formal dining. We have Easter. We have Santa Claus. We have lawn parties in the summer and “band-oriented” events in the Spring and Fall outside (Shrimpfest, Crabfest, Oyster Roast, Pig Roast). That is it.
We specialize in families whose children are too young to 1) enjoy the other amenities at the full service clubs and 2) cannot get to those clubs by themselves. We lose about 15 members per year to the big clubs (Charlotte CC, Quail Hollow and Myers Park CC) which is an important part of our business plan. They call us the “junior varsity” which is fine by me. I am not sure I can service someone with that much disposable income.
We do not offer daycare. We do not try to compete with the multitude of other attractions in and around Charlotte on a regular basis. Our food minimum is miniscule ($25 per month). We have events for serious golfers (Member Member, Club Championship, Four Ball Invitational). We have fun golf events (Couples Nine and Dine, Member Guest, Guest Days, Ryder Cup). It has worked out very well. We are a big walking club but do not have mandatory caddies. Folks are allowed to bring their own push carts and we encourage walking.
The younger members are our biggest spenders. They spend the most on carts, guests, food and beverage by a LONG SHOT. How do you attract them? You adapt your club to their wants and needs. The old guard isn’t going anywhere. The last thing you try to do is get them to adapt to YOUR lifestyle. You allow cell phones on vibrate. You install WiFi. You allow blue jeans and hold either family-oriented or music-oriented events. The old members need to adapt to the YOUNG members… not the other way around.
you had me until blue jeans.
other than that, i think you are right on the money.
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you had me until blue jeans.
other than that, i think you are right on the money.
That's funny. My first thought was "Amen" when I saw the blue jeans comment. I'm 62, but I live in blue jeans at home and would love to be able to buzz out to the club and hit a few balls on the range, practice putting or grab a beer and a bite to eat in the clubhouse without having to change clothing.
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What the heck is wrong with jeans? Most clubs in the Northwestern US allow jeans from November thru March due to the rainy weather and resultant muddy conditions.
I just bought Wrangler jeans at the VF Outlet in Reading PA, so please don't tell me my $15.95 jeans cost more than a nice $80 pair of slacks.
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What the heck is wrong with jeans? Most clubs in the Northwestern US allow jeans from November thru March due to the rainy weather and resultant muddy conditions.
I just bought Wrangler jeans at the VF Outlet in Reading PA, so please don't tell me my $15.95 jeans cost more than a nice $80 pair of slacks.
I guess I am a bit of a traditionalist here, believing that at least some level of dress up shows respect for the game. That said, i have no issues with northern clubs who allow jeans when it is 45 degrees or less.
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Mark,
To me there is a huge difference between jeans on the course and jeans in the grill.
I don't like jeans on the course. I have zero problem with jeans in the clubhouse.
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Three issues - cost, cost and cost
To be throwing around figures like $30k to join and $5-6k per year to be a membe of a 2nd tier club that is only open half the year as a bargain is your one and only problem. Why does it cost so much???
You could join Royal Melbourne (well, assuming you could) for a fraction of this and play all year.
Rules of thumb are to pay no more than $100 per week for golf, and a joining fee of no more than 5x that. That will cover every single club in Australia
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Three issues - cost, cost and cost
To be throwing around figures like $30k to join and $5-6k per year to be a membe of a 2nd tier club that is only open half the year as a bargain is your one and only problem. Why does it cost so much???
You could join Royal Melbourne (well, assuming you could) for a fraction of this and play all year.
Rules of thumb are to pay no more than $100 per week for golf, and a joining fee of no more than 5x that. That will cover every single club in Australia
Not only do you guys in Australia have the cost structure figured out, you also have the absolute best courses in the world (at least based on what I've seen from the confines on my living room on television). Very jealous. :'(
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Some clarification... in regards to Carolina...
Regular dues are $350... Junior dues are $296
Jeans are only allowed for certain events. They are not allowed on the golf course, practice facilities or for regular dining.
I agree with Aussie dues... but remember initiation fees are simply a measure of a club's market value... similar to a stock price. If you can stay at capacity... whatever you can get is the right price! 😄
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I said this earlier in the thread, but I'll repeat it here again. Thank you for all the comments on this very helpful thread.
Just this past Saturday I was able to play with two prospective members, one 24 year old and one ~55 year old. After reading this thread and thinking about the issues quite a bit for this club committee, it was interesting hearing the different thoughts between the two. The 55 year old was mostly in the camp of "I don't really care about anything but the golf course" and the 24 year old cared about the golf course as well but also really liked the pool, fitness, clubhouse, etc. that came with it.
Also building off the 24 year old's comments, I think a major issue with these clubs is that many younger people feel that while the set-ups are great, they aren't going to feel welcome from the other, older, members. While I haven't found that to be a problem at my home course, I can understand how some memberships might be chilly to a younger guy or gal who wants to play golf early, in gym shoes, and a cart.
After talking to the 55 year old, I realized that it's unwise to join someplace (regardless of age) because of one facet of a club. As mentioned in earlier posts, if you only join a place for the golf course, only play golf, and go home...you're missing the entire point. What makes clubs great are the intangible aspects that can't be put on paper. It's heading into the bar after the round for a beer and seeing (and knowing) the groups that played around you. It's playing in season long events, making friends, and getting together with them later on a social level. So while I tried to convey that to the 55 year old, I'm guessing he will join another club down in town which offers less amenities, is golf only, and is cheaper to join.
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Re. jeans, My brother is a member at Albuquerque CC, and one of the first times I visited after he moved there was in Dec. I said, "I don't suppose I can wear jeans. Or do you allow them in the winter?"
He said, "This is the West, you can wear jean all year."
I've been there several times since, and not once did I think, "Ewww, this place is low class."
If your membership is comprised of golfers, they won't be wearing unacceptable attire, even if it's denim.
K
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Great points Mr. Craig.
You bring up what is the core problem with a lot of full service clubs. From my experience I believe now, more than ever, that a club should offer only what folks in the surrounding community CANNOT get anywhere else. When you offer everything... you run the risk of your dues structure starting to alienate the two demographics you mentioned in your post. It becomes too expensive for the 24 year old. It becomes frustrating for the 55 year old who only wants golf and to hang in the grill with his buddies.
If your dues are only supporting golf, a "non swim team" swimming pool and a modest clubhouse then you can satisfy the needs of a much greater percentage of members because the things you do not offer (fitness, tennis, fine dining - FTF) can be easily found elsewhere. Those who want fine dining can go to a new restaurant once per week. Those who want tennis and fitness can join the YMCA, enroll their kids in the swim team, and play tennis for free at the local park. If your dues are low enough to where joining your club PLUS a swim and raquet club is more cost effective than joining a full service club it makes all the sense in the world. The older member who does not want FTF is satisfied his dues are only covering the things he wants and you will retain him as he continues to age and not want everything offered at a full service club.
Until a child reaches school age, swimming is about paddling around and playing and swim lessons and quality family recreation. It's about meeting your husband at noon on a Saturday after he's played golf in the morning. It's about having fun at a place with friends where you feel safe and you can relax. That is something you CANNOT get at public pools and the YMCA.
Playing public golf has serious drawbacks as well. Conditioning, pace of play, accessibility and travel are all major factors. Private golf is a wonderful thing and only those who have been a member of a private club can understand that. Dollar per round is never a good way to weigh private vs public golf.
This theory does not apply to a lot of small town clubs where FTF is unavailable. When you are the only game in town, it makes sense to have tennis, fitness, fine dining and a swim team. Clubs in urban and suburban areas, however, really should take a hard look before investing significant capital into non-golf amenities. They also need to pay close attention to the sometimes astronomical increase in operating and payroll that usually come with a new venue. Does the ROI justify the investment?
There are a lot of horror stories out there where members have lost their clubs to the bank or an ownership group has swooped in and purchased it for nothing after a new clubhouse or sports facility crippled the dues structure and members resigned and new members would not join. There are some great successess, too. The key is to know your club, know your membership and know your market. Narrow your focus and hopefully you will be able to retain your current members and attract the young folks!
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As the ~55 yr old myself I can say that being sent out with some ~25 yr old kid when I have taken the time to visit the club would be a deal breaker on the first tee. People my age need to be introduced to our peer group or a highly ranked member of the staff. Why would I invest in a club that doesn't have the time to invest in me.
Would you send your dad to meet this guy? http://www.linkedin.com/in/patrickccraig
John --
I'd be perfectly happy to send my dad to meet this guy, and my dad would be perfectly happy to meet this guy. And this guy would be perfectly happy to meet my dad -- a lousy golfer, but a helluva guy.
Sad to say, my dad died 42 years ago -- at seven years younger than I am now. (An aside: He had JUST signed up as a Charter Member of Olympic Hills GC in Eden Prairie, Minnesota -- a course unfinished when he died. It would have been his first golf-club membership. He never played a hole there.)
Would I (~59) object to being sent to meet this guy? No, I would not. Why should I object to meeting any of the guys, young or old, with whom I'm considering playing most of my golf? And this guy, from my direct experience, is good company on the golf course. I can't imagine writing him off on the first tee, just because he has the good fortune to be young.
Dan
P.S., to Pat: I disagree with your view that a person who wants golf from a golf club, and little else (maybe a beer afterward; maybe a meal once in a while), misses the whole point. Maybe you would be missing the whole point for you if you wanted only golf from a golf club -- but I'd urge you to consider this: That's only one way to look at the world. There are others. A club that wants to thrive should accommodate at least some of those other ways (IMO).
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I would like for Roger to come and run my club!
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Three issues - cost, cost and cost
To be throwing around figures like $30k to join and $5-6k per year to be a membe of a 2nd tier club that is only open half the year as a bargain is your one and only problem. Why does it cost so much???
You could join Royal Melbourne (well, assuming you could) for a fraction of this and play all year.
Rules of thumb are to pay no more than $100 per week for golf, and a joining fee of no more than 5x that. That will cover every single club in Australia
Josh,
By comparison, golf memberships in Australia are a steal to those of us in North America. Isn't a major factor for keeping your dues low, similar to the British Isles, is allowing overseas visitors to play your wonderful golf courses, at a premium fee? This practice subsidizes the memberships of the locals, keeping things very affordable even for younger people. This type of access just doesn't happen in the US.
TK
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P.S., to Pat: I disagree with your view that a person who wants golf from a golf club, and little else (maybe a beer afterward; maybe a meal once in a while), misses the whole point. Maybe you would be missing the whole point for you if you wanted only golf from a golf club -- but I'd urge you to consider this: That's only one way to look at the world. There are others. A club that wants to thrive should accommodate at least some of those other ways (IMO).
Dan,
Thanks for the kind words.
I don't argue that clubs should make accommodations for different types of members (current or potential). There are different types of clubs for different types of members too. The point I was trying to make (maybe unsuccessfully) was that joining any club for one particular reason isn't always the right mindset. It doesn't matter if the place is golf-only like Windsong or full country club like Interlachen, playing golf (or whatever) is only part of the experience, IMO. It's the people and the little intangible things that make joining a club a worthwhile endeavor.
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After talking to the 55 year old, I realized that it's unwise to join someplace (regardless of age) because of one facet of a club. As mentioned in earlier posts, if you only join a place for the golf course, only play golf, and go home...you're missing the entire point. What makes clubs great are the intangible aspects that can't be put on paper.
As a golfer who is entirely comfortable "missing the point" I would only want to add that it really ought to be possible to attract members who get "the point" and with only modest additional effort avoid alienating those of us who fail to do so!
What if joining a club is the only reliable to have access to the following?
-One among the top echelon of golf courses within an hour's drive radius.
-A place to be able to enjoy a walking game, no carts required, any time on any day even on short notice.
-The pace of play, lack of distractions and consideration from your fellow golfers that are so lacking at my public courses.
And what if a prospective member is able to afford the financial cost of membership but not willing, interested or amenable to persuasion to join in for swimming, parties, banquets, dining, dancing, easter egg hunts or any other non-golf activity. Surely it's a bit bloody-minded to insist that members "get it" as a condition of membership, no? I would think an attitude excluding such "trunk slammers" is counter productive unless the club is always full with a waiting list and never in need of new blood.
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Interesting variation in reactions to Pat's post. I thought that bit about "missing the point" more meant that that 55 year old who's only interested in the golf course and, occasionally, dining facilities would be happier at a "pure" golf club than at Pat's club, which I gather is more a country club. That seems fair enough to me; that individual would look at his bill each month and wonder to himself at the extent to which he was subsidizing other facets of the club. He should ideally project into the future in that manner before making the decision to join a country club when it's not an ideal fit. And since he's a 55 year old who has the means to join a country club, he should be savvy enough to make that self-judgment. I agree with Mr. Craig.
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Well Tim to the extent it's about wanting the club to be a good match to a prospective member, your point is well taken.
Without knowing the particulars I can't really speculate about Pat's club or the area in which he lives. Sometimes, what might appear to be a case of a member paying for a bunch of stuff he'd resent supporting (and hey, I'd gladly be a member of a course with no clubhouse at all!) is really a matter of assigning a very high value to the golf course and the golf experience at that club.
If one has sufficient means, it could make sense to join an all-inclusive country club with no intent on fully partaking in its manifold benefits. In some places, that all-inclusive socially oriented club might just happen to own a golf course far more attractive (to a given member) than anything else in the area.
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Interesting variation in reactions to Pat's post. I thought that bit about "missing the point" more meant that that 55 year old who's only interested in the golf course and, occasionally, dining facilities would be happier at a "pure" golf club than at Pat's club, which I gather is more a country club. That seems fair enough to me; that individual would look at his bill each month and wonder to himself at the extent to which he was subsidizing other facets of the club. He should ideally project into the future in that manner before making the decision to join a country club when it's not an ideal fit. And since he's a 55 year old who has the means to join a country club, he should be savvy enough to make that self-judgment. I agree with Mr. Craig.
If that's what Pat had written (emoticon omitted), I'd have agreed with him, too!
What he did write was a much more sweeping opinion about clubs generally: "If you only join a place for the golf course, only play golf, and go home...you're missing the entire point. What makes clubs great are the intangible aspects that can't be put on paper. It's heading into the bar after the round for a beer and seeing (and knowing) the groups that played around you. It's playing in season long events, making friends, and getting together with them later on a social level."
Slamming the trunk, and not meaning to be anti-social,
DK
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Interesting variation in reactions to Pat's post. I thought that bit about "missing the point" more meant that that 55 year old who's only interested in the golf course and, occasionally, dining facilities would be happier at a "pure" golf club than at Pat's club, which I gather is more a country club. That seems fair enough to me; that individual would look at his bill each month and wonder to himself at the extent to which he was subsidizing other facets of the club. He should ideally project into the future in that manner before making the decision to join a country club when it's not an ideal fit. And since he's a 55 year old who has the means to join a country club, he should be savvy enough to make that self-judgment. I agree with Mr. Craig.
If that's what Pat had written (emoticon omitted), I'd have agreed with him, too!
What he did write was a much more sweeping opinion about clubs generally: "If you only join a place for the golf course, only play golf, and go home...you're missing the entire point. What makes clubs great are the intangible aspects that can't be put on paper. It's heading into the bar after the round for a beer and seeing (and knowing) the groups that played around you. It's playing in season long events, making friends, and getting together with them later on a social level."
Slamming the trunk, and not meaning to be anti-social,
DK
Edit: My main point, which is being misconstrued in many ways, is that you should join someplace for the facilities, any facility (golf, pool, dining, whatever) because they don't make the club, the people do. A lot of guys, like our prospective member, aren't necessarily looking at the big picture and the intangibles. If I'm being insensitive to "trunk slammers" that isn't my intent, only to say that different people (and different age groups) have different mindsets when looking at new places to play.
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Pat,
I hope you sent the guy who just wants to play golf our way. We'd appreciate that.
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Pat,
I hope you sent the guy who just wants to play golf our way. We'd appreciate that.
I did. I would honestly encourage anyone who asked me about courses/clubs in the cities to look at different places. I know he is going to be looking at your place, and I told him specifically about you and how much you've enjoyed it so far at Midland.
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Gentleman,
Interesting topic. I am 32 and on the hunt for a new membership where I spend most of my time on the road, Houston. For me, I love the wow factor...I love when your customer walks into your club and cant stay focused because he is engaged in his surrounding. Wifi, steam room, wrap around bar, cigar room, card rooms, shoe shine guy, historical pictures, books, and even Green Jackets (I have seen two here in Houston framed from Harmon at Lochinvar and Palmer at The Woodlands) but they dont mean one thing if that wow factor is not followed onto the short grass. I joined my first course at 28....18 very unigue holes laid out through creeks and ponds and rolling hills in the Philadelphia suburbs...an amazing course. Every guest I took there always walked off 18 with a Wow comment. Forget that the club house was outdated, the old guard was 50%+ of the membership, the President got arrested for theft, the GM left a few days later, the club was upside down, fist fights in the big money card games......Honestly, I didnt care. I always could find a competitve game, my friends and family always loved the course and the food was fantastic.
Finally, thanks for welcoming to my new club, here at GCA...this is my first Post.
Mike
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Haven't read the recent replies, but one area, where almost all clubs have failed, is pace of play.
Most clubs have allowed pace of play to deteriorate over the years.
Young members, with young families, need to play early and quickly.
However, it's difficult for clubs, who have let pace of play slide, to suddenly get play down to 3:00 to 3:30 at the longest, and therein lies the conflict that clubs won't be able to correct the time of play any time soon
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Pat - difficult to disagree but often it's the younger players who fail to get around quickly, lining up every putt from 3 sides, peering through rangefinders and pacing distances.
I was at a major foursomes tournament earlier this year. On a par 3 the partners walked forward and were greenside. Player A hit to around 6 feet, B nearly holed it and was a foot away for a certain 2. A's partner hadn't hit his putt in the time it took A to walk the 150yds from tee to green. Bloody disgrace they should have been DQ'd.
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Mark,
There's a fellow at my club who's the nicest guy you'd ever want to meet but he's a human rain delay on the greens. Not particularly fast or slow from tee to green but just takes all day to putt.
One afternoon I was playing by myself and had just hit my tee shot on a Par 3. This fellow caught up to me in a cart (he generally walks) and seemed to be in a hurry. He said he was trying to get a full 18 but had to be home by 6pm. So I told him to hit up and then go ahead without me.
He hit his ball to about 10 feet and zoomed off in the cart. I walked up near the green, went ahead and chipped and two-putted in the time it took him to clean his ball and read the putt from all fourteen sides of the hole. Finally he missed the putt, marked the 18-incher and went through a complete ball-cleaning and reading ritual. Damndest thing I ever saw.
Tapped that in and trotted off saying "Thanks, gotta run!".
I honestly don't know how someone arrives at that style of play.
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Pat - difficult to disagree but often it's the younger players who fail to get around quickly, lining up every putt from 3 sides, peering through rangefinders and pacing distances.
I was at a major foursomes tournament earlier this year. On a par 3 the partners walked forward and were greenside. Player A hit to around 6 feet, B nearly holed it and was a foot away for a certain 2. A's partner hadn't hit his putt in the time it took A to walk the 150yds from tee to green. Bloody disgrace they should have been DQ'd.
Yeah, all the middle aged guys at my club play in ~3 hours. Darn young people ::)
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Mark,
Irrespective of who contributes to slow play, once it takes hold, once it becomes part of the golf culture at the club, it's difficult to undo.
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Pace of play was top 2 or 3 on my reasons of joining a club. Extremely important in my mind.
I think quick play stems more from consideration for your fellow golfer than anything else in specific.
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The beauty of a private club is that pace if play is enforced by members... not rangers or staff. We have had slow players threatened with expulsion from their "gang some" due to slow play. The unwritten rule is that if you are slow you will either play by yourself or be stuck with the last tee time with the other slow players in tournaments. It's a wonderful thing!