Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: mike_beene on October 01, 2012, 12:43:51 AM
-
People are buzzing about it at the club. A touring pro I was practicing next to was getting constant updates. I watch every bit of the majors.To me golf is an individual sport and this was set up to be a friendly. Maybe the war by the shore crap turns me off.Maybe I am not sure who I should be for since I was born in Europe to US citizens.Why all the hype?Am I a bad person because I can't seem to give a rip who wins?And the wives running around everywhere bugs me.The Baseball wives aren't in the dugout. Maybe there are one or two out there who can identify with this?
-
People are buzzing about it at the club. A touring pro I was practicing next to was getting constant updates. I watch every bit of the majors.To me golf is an individual sport and this was set up to be a friendly. Maybe the war by the shore crap turns me off.Maybe I am not sure who I should be for since I was born in Europe to US citizens.Why all the hype?Am I a bad person because I can't seem to give a rip who wins?And the wives running around everywhere bugs me.The Baseball wives aren't in the dugout. Maybe there are one or two out there who can identify with this?
You're a bad person, we aren't friends anymore. The Ryder Cup is cool because it's a chance to see one play for their country and route for your country. I understand your part about golf being an individual sport, in junior and amateur golf I never felt fully comfortable playing in a team format. Part of that might be that I sucked though and I didn't like bringing anyone down.
-
Sam,as Dr Evil's son Scott said"we were just making progress at group"
-
Sam,as Dr Evil's son Scott said"we were just making progress at group"
The group leader was Carrie Fisher. In my single days I once told a girl my mother was a web footed prostitute named Chloe and my father invented the apostrophe. My friends and I were impressed I kept a straight face, this was until the girl asked what an apostrophe was. She wasn't cute enough to overcome that stupidity.
-
so this is the second time i'm posting this link tonight... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nieszHz1itU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nieszHz1itU)
Mike, I don't think there is anything wrong with you, and I think the way you've expressed yourself on the matter makes boat loads more sense than most people. If you don't care or don't like something, don't watch. To each their own.
-
so this is the second time i'm posting this link tonight... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nieszHz1itU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nieszHz1itU)
Mike, I don't think there is anything wrong with you, and I think the way you've expressed yourself on the matter makes boat loads more sense than most people. If you don't care or don't like something, don't watch. To each their own.
Alex,
I'm worried about you, how'd you find that video?
-
so this is the second time i'm posting this link tonight... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nieszHz1itU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nieszHz1itU)
Mike, I don't think there is anything wrong with you, and I think the way you've expressed yourself on the matter makes boat loads more sense than most people. If you don't care or don't like something, don't watch. To each their own.
Alex,
I'm worried about you, how'd you find that video?
I think the only way to answer here is honestly: I was texting with my friend and for some reason took the persona of Jabba the Hut (won a bet of food and now he was in debt to me). Star Wars puns ensued and next thing you know I was checking to see if what I just sent already existed in some form. It did.
I also find this version better than the original.
-
I'm starting to hate it myself.
-
Golf may have become an individual sport where every shot matters and a card and pencil is vital but it wasn't always like that. Fortunately in some small corners matchplay and alternate shot is still the norm.
-
I get the Ryder Cup, and why it interests people. Never interested me, though. Didn't watch a second of it.
-
There is not the slightest doubt in my own mind that match-play requires higher mental qualities than medal. If you are keen enough on the game, it is not too difficult to develop an ability to isolate your mind in a kind of cocoon of concentration, taking each shot as it comes and thinking of nothing else...It is impossible, whatever anyone may say, to ignore a living opponent who flukes a three when he ought to have taken five and it takes a special form of golfing courage to do so - HENRY LONGHURST
IMHO - Match play played in a team context is an even higher calling. My favorite form of golf is alternate shot foursomes. It's fun and it is fast, if you play it properly.
-
Setting aside the increasingly distasteful peripheral elements of the competition, a lot of it media fueled, I do find the team match play format far more interesting than any individual stroke play tournament. Which leads me to comment on the statement "golf is an individual sport."
Indeed, it seems to have evolved to that point, in American golf anyway. For the majority of golfers the most familiar golf is medal play. We see it on TV every weekend. Our handicap system encourages the posting of a score for every round. Mark Chaplin mentions the predominance of the pencil and scorecard. Our golf has become man vs. the course and the final outcome is a score. Any type of round that doesn't involve keeping a tally on that total number is unfamiliar and largely scorned.
But the true origins and perhaps even the spirit of the game lie in a social, match play setting and for at least once a year, the team events like the Ryder Cup and President's Cup shift the focus from the familiar stroke play format. Beyond the personal joy I get from watching a team match play event, I also see the educational value it has in at least introducing the concept to the "masses." It never fails that a conversation about the Ryder Cup, even with experienced golfers, will bring up questions like "what does that mean, 3&2?"
Unfortunately, the elements surrounding the actual matches are detracting from the event. The overemphasized partisanship, rowdy fans, etc. turn it more into a football match.
-
I get the Ryder Cup, and why it interests people. Never interested me, though. Didn't watch a second of it.
Do you play golf? I know it seems like an odd question given the fact that you've posted on a golf site but I truly don't understand how a "golfer" would have zero interest in this event.
Perhaps it's because I love to play competitive golf but I've always been fascinated by watching the very best players perform at the highest level under that type of pressure. Just yesterday for instance, there were a large number of birdies made on the first hole. For me, the entire day was great to watch.
-
so this is the second time i'm posting this link tonight... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nieszHz1itU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nieszHz1itU)
Mike, I don't think there is anything wrong with you, and I think the way you've expressed yourself on the matter makes boat loads more sense than most people. If you don't care or don't like something, don't watch. To each their own.
Alex,
I'm worried about you, how'd you find that video?
I think the only way to answer here is honestly: I was texting with my friend and for some reason took the persona of Jabba the Hut (won a bet of food and now he was in debt to me). Star Wars puns ensued and next thing you know I was checking to see if what I just sent already existed in some form. It did.
I also find this version better than the original.
Alex, you're a dork, will you be my new internet friend? You can go with Kavanaugh and I to see The Hobbit.
-
There is not the slightest doubt in my own mind that match-play requires higher mental qualities than medal. If you are keen enough on the game, it is not too difficult to develop an ability to isolate your mind in a kind of cocoon of concentration, taking each shot as it comes and thinking of nothing else...It is impossible, whatever anyone may say, to ignore a living opponent who flukes a three when he ought to have taken five and it takes a special form of golfing courage to do so - HENRY LONGHURST
IMHO - Match play played in a team context is an even higher calling. My favorite form of golf is alternate shot foursomes. It's fun and it is fast, if you play it properly.
Here, here.
I was commenting Friday morning on the bus to Medinah that the US team is at a distinct disadvantage because we don't grow up playing match play and foursomes. Probably every player on the Euro team played alternate shot with their dad or their brother when they were growing up and learning the game, and cut their teeth playing matches rather than stroke play. Match play requires a completely different mental approach that is not baked into the golfing souls of those of us on this side of the pond and consequently we suffer from a sub-conscious discomfort when the score we write down with our pencil over 18 holes is less important than what we did vis a vis our opponent on the hole we just played. And I wish my friends here would listen to me when I try to tell them how fast and fun foursomes is but its hard to convince them when the round still takes 5 hours behind the group ahead that is dutifully holing out every putt so they can write their score down for their handicap.
-
Jeepers! Its because these pros embrace the team aspect of golf (yes, it does exist as is obviously the case in better ball and 4somes) that the Ryder Cup is compelling. I wouldn't mind never putting in another card the rest of my golfing days simply because the team aspect of golf is far superior to the individual aspect.
Ciao
-
There is not the slightest doubt in my own mind that match-play requires higher mental qualities than medal. If you are keen enough on the game, it is not too difficult to develop an ability to isolate your mind in a kind of cocoon of concentration, taking each shot as it comes and thinking of nothing else...It is impossible, whatever anyone may say, to ignore a living opponent who flukes a three when he ought to have taken five and it takes a special form of golfing courage to do so - HENRY LONGHURST
IMHO - Match play played in a team context is an even higher calling. My favorite form of golf is alternate shot foursomes. It's fun and it is fast, if you play it properly.
Here, here.
I was commenting Friday morning on the bus to Medinah that the US team is at a distinct disadvantage because we don't grow up playing match play and foursomes. Probably every player on the Euro team played alternate shot with their dad or their brother when they were growing up and learning the game, and cut their teeth playing matches rather than stroke play. Match play requires a completely different mental approach that is not baked into the golfing souls of those of us on this side of the pond and consequently we suffer from a sub-conscious discomfort when the score we write down with our pencil over 18 holes is less important than what we did vis a vis our opponent on the hole we just played. And I wish my friends here would listen to me when I try to tell them how fast and fun foursomes is but its hard to convince them when the round still takes 5 hours behind the group ahead that is dutifully holing out every putt so they can write their score down for their handicap.
That really isn't the case. Foursomes play is very popular at a small number of posh clubs, and there's a bit of it in the high level amateur game. Ordinary clubs might have one or two foursomes comps a year. But that's about it, sadly - I wish there were more.
-
After yesterdays level of golf, it was as compelling as any sports event I can imagine.
At least as a golfer that is.
I was as compelled and as enthralled, nervous, anxious as I was watching United get beat on Saturday.
Now I love Manchester United, have done for 40 odd years, watching them over the years has given much pleasure and an equal amount of dispair, and yesterdays golf was right up there with the best of watching my beloved team.
Brookline was much the same only with a very heavy dose of dispair instead of yesterdays joy. ;D
-
Michael,
You won't have enjoyed the match on Saturday, then!
-
Yes,I do play golf and am intensely interested in the majors and many regular events.I have the Ryder Cup recorded and will watch every bit of the golf.What I don't get is the extreme emotions that go into the outcome and in fairness have little interest in Davis Cup tennis but have made the trek to Wimbledon several times.Most of the golf I play on Saturday mornings is match play of some sort.Setting aside alternate shot,which I have only played at Muirfield and in a few member tournaments,golf still is a play your own ball individual sport.Baseball is to some degree individual so don't overreact to my definition.Let me put it this way: If given a choice in my hypothetical career to win one Open Championship and never play Ryder Cup or play multiple Ryder Cups successfully but no Open Championship,I pick the Open and don't understand the thought process of anyone who wouldn't
-
Let me put it this way: If given a choice in my hypothetical career to win one Open Championship and never play Ryder Cup or play multiple Ryder Cups successfully but no Open Championship,I pick the Open and don't understand the thought process of anyone who wouldn't
I think anyone would--even Colin Montgomerie. ;D
But,I think the whole point of the RC is that it's a team event without any prize money made up of guys who normally only play for themselves and for cash. And they care about winning the RC almost as much as winning any tournament individually.
The proof,I think,is the pressure each one says they feel.Only a handful of tournaments induce this kind of pressure.This is why the President's Cup will always be a pretender.Much as he'd like,Tim Finchem can't manufacture pressure.
-
I don't get guys who don't get the Ryder Cup.
-
Mark
The second half was great, the best they have played for over a year.
The result not so much, but if the second half is what we have in store the rest of the season, my optimism level is rising!!!!
-
Several thoughts;
1. If your point is that it is overhyped and has morphed away from its original intent, that is hard to dispute.
2. Clearly, the players who are involved and actually have the opportunity to play in majors and the Ryder Cup really care. Witness Poulter, Garcia and even McElroy. See the impact on players like Furyk, Stricker,Mickelson, etc,, or better still, the reaction at Brookline. There must be something to it if that many players are willing to fight to get on the team and react the way they do. I suggest that it is the very fact that they are part of a team that increases the intensity. Playing for your "friends" (and country) creates pressure and magnifies the importance.
3. You create a false choice; to date no one has to choose between the majors and the Ryder Cup. I suspect different players react differently.
4. In the end you are right, you don't get it. But clearly most if not all of the players do. I also suspect that the fact that the tournament is played only once every 2 years as opposed to 40 or more tourneys per year and 4 majors per year serves to magnify the feeling. In that regard, the President's Cup, while giving the Americans more experience, may lessen their intensity as opposed to the Euros.
-
Interesting that many would choose the major over winning a Ryder Cup..yet almost to a man those who have the privelage of doing both,choose the moment of winning the Cup as a bigger emotional event.
Kaymer last night said so much, Mcdowell has said so on many occasions,that may not transfer to the players on this side of the pond and PERHAPS there lies why Europe has one seven of the past nine or whatever the number is.
-
The pick the major or Ryder Cup is just a way of trying to make my point.Yes,the point is it is overhyped and seems so focused on winning.To me Seve took this the wrong direction and to be fair the Stockton ,not sure his fault, war team really got this out of hand.This getting the fans riled up is not what Samuel Ryder probably had in mind,is it? Come to think of it,Montgomery may be the ultimate victim of this fan craziness with a claim from Sergio.I really like the Presidents Cup.There seems less anger about the whole thing.
-
Mickelson gets it - the thumbs up to Rose making the putt - it is about sport and sportsmanship
The media and the hype sucks
-
So to focus on winning is OK in a major but not in a team event where it manifests itself more outwardly?
-
Part of this, I think, is the way that Europeans think about sports vs. the way many in America do. Soccer (football ;)) fans in England talk about their last World Cup victory like it was yesterday, even though it happened more than 45 years ago. Langer is revered -- as a sporting figure, not just a golfer -- in Germany the way very few American athletes have been. Ben Sims' comment in a thread that vast swaths of the American South in the fall care little about anything else other than college football -- that would never be replicated in a country like Scotland or Spain during an event the size and importance of the Ryder Cup.
So European fans -- and by extension Euro's golfers -- come to the Ryder Cup with all of that knowledge and history in their golf bags, and their golfing personas. They know how over-matched GBI was pre-1979. They know recent European success in the RC (since 1983-5) has turned this into one of the largest sporting spectacles of any kind, because it's made it an incredibly competitive event (say what you will about Euros success and America's lack of it -- can you think of another sporting event that is consistently this compelling time after time?). Euro always seems to come to the matches with a little bit of an extra edge -- this year it was the memory of Seve, brought up-front and center by his playing partner of so many years who served as captain. Years previously it was Clarke's inspired play in the face of his wife's death, or the sense that too many over here didn't truly respect the quality and depth of talent that Euro had.
In short, I still think the Ryder Cup means more to the Euros than the Americans, although I think that tide is turning. Somewhere there is someone(s) on the American side who's sick of losing this thing, and dedicates the next two years to winning it, moreso than winning a major or the FedEx trophy.
-
Part of this, I think, is the way that Europeans think about sports vs. the way many in America do. Soccer (football ;)) fans in England talk about their last World Cup victory like it was yesterday, even though it happened more than 45 years ago.
To be fair, some of us in the USA are living in the past when it comes to sports, not necessarily by choice. Being from Cleveland, the years 1948 and 1964 are very meaningful. 1948 is the last time that the Indians won a World Series (they have lost three times since, including a meltdown in 1997). 1964 is the last year that the Browns won an NFL championship, and we are one of four teams to never make a Super Bowl. For the record, I was born 13 years after the last time Cleveland experienced a championship. The very thought of ever seeing a winner is so foreign to me that I can imagine how I would react if I ever do see it...at the moment, that's not going to be a problem for me because all my teams are awful.
-
David,
I agree. If anything I think it's the fact that it means so much that consistently impacts guys like Tiger's play. They haven't had team pressure since college and this is about a million times larger.
-
David,
I agree. If anything I think it's the fact that it means so much that consistently impacts guys like Tiger's play. They haven't had team pressure since college and this is about a million times larger.
Jud:
If you don't think Tiger cares more about the Masters, US Open, British Open and PGA than the Ryder Cup -- and his larger individual record in the sport -- than you've been watching different golf than me the past several years. He's won more majors than he has RCup victories, which is almost impossible to achieve.
-
David,
I agree. If anything I think it's the fact that it means so much that consistently impacts guys like Tiger's play. They haven't had team pressure since college and this is about a million times larger.
Jud:
If you don't think Tiger cares more about the Masters, US Open, British Open and PGA than the Ryder Cup -- and his larger individual record in the sport -- than you've been watching different golf than me the past several years. He's won more majors than he has RCup victories, which is almost impossible to achieve.
Phil
I'll go ahead and concede that point to you. But he is 1 of 12. If we are to believe what the Americans said throughout the entire week, an in particular after the matches, they told a different story.
David:
I tend not to listen to what people say, generally. I watch what they do. And with rare exceptions, the U.S. has gone into the last 14 RCups with as much, and in most cases more, pure golfing talent (as measured by majors won, tour tournaments won) than Euro. And for most of the RCups from 1997 on, they've had the best player on the planet --maybe ever -- on their team.
Its lost 10 of those 14 matches. That's a record that speaks to motivation.
-
So if the U.S. wins the next 3 they miraculously got motivated?
-
David:
In Tiger's world (IMHO), majors are different than Ryder Cups. It's an apples-oranges argument.
-
So to focus on winning is OK in a major but not in a team event where it manifests itself more outwardly?
To this question, I answer "yes." I can't even stand the now standard fist pump. Act like you've been there - or at least not like it's the first time you've made a 10 footer.
You ask this as if the players have no choice but to act the way they do.
-
Mike,
I sound like a broken record. The 13th man, THE CROWD, was what everyone was playing for all week. Both the U.S.'s performance the first 2 days, and Europe's Sunday performance had a lot to do with the crowd's participation or lack thereof. If you don't like it I suggest you watch this instead next time:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wK4xDlpWJA
-
I can't put a finger on this,but is a very competitive Jack Nicklaus conceding the putt to Tony Jacklin what the Ryder Cup should be?Still they competed hard and I understand Snead was mad.I can't see Nicklaus going out of his way to fist pump and rile a crowd.Maybe Niclaus be Watson at Turnberry is the attitude and respect golfers should have for each other and the game.Compete hard,remember it is a game and don't egg on the drunken idiots from both sides.Golf is a game that transcends borders.Why create this artificial marketing opportunity.Next thing you know the PGA of America will have people standing in patches of sand they claim are bunkers and cost someone a major when they ground their club by the potato chip packs.
-
Mike,
I sound like a broken record. The 13th man, THE CROWD, was what everyone was playing for all week. Both the U.S.'s performance the first 2 days, and Europe's Sunday performance had a lot to do with the crowd's participation or lack thereof. If you don't like it I suggest you watch this instead next time:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wK4xDlpWJA
Jud,
I haven't watched the Ryder Cup for years. Yeah, I see the forced highlights for about 15 seconds - just doesn't do it for me. I'll stick with my first answer - especially when put in the "crowd" terms. I don't think it's ok to act like the lowest common denominator - the chest beating, drunk fan that screams at everything in sight. If you're cool with the players and crowds acting like idiots for a few days, that's all good with me. All I said is that I'm not down with it.
-
Honestly, I don't understand this thread at all. All week, colleaguse who don't follow golf at all have been talking about the excitement, the skill and the competitive spirit at Medinah. And also the sportsmanship shown by the competitors. If you don't get a thrill from the way Mickelson so obviously enjoyed the competition down the stretch, if you aren't filled with admiration for the skill of Rose and the way in which Mickelson responded to it, if you can't appreciate Colsaerts play on Friday afternoon or Poulter's astyonishing finish under such enormous pressure on Saturday then I simply don't see how you can get any sport.
If you don't get the Ryder Cup you don't get sport.
-
Mark,depends on the definition of sport.I don't get spectators that live and die with their team and travel to games.I could really care less if Dallas beats New York,etc and long ago let season tickets go to Cowboys and Rangers.I would rather be on the golf course.I love the process of sport not the staging.Other than seeing a 200 meter world record at the Atlanta Olympics and enjoying the drama of a golf major,watching others compete just doesn't interest me.i don't know why but I don't understand a fan really caring whether their team wins.When I am playing I absolutely want to win. So I still don't get the Ryder Cup.
-
SL gave the good answer. Part of that may be that Illinois sucks so bad this year, he has lots of time on his hands. I mean La Tech wiped the earth with them in Illinois. I personally do not like the Ryder hype nor the courses used in the general discussion. However I love match play golf when it really matters to the players. That is say compared the Arizona tour event. So watching big time match play golf is so pure and beautiful to me I will watch and tolerate the tour types and hype.