Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Tim_Weiman on July 03, 2003, 01:23:25 PM
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On another thread, Scott Seward asked about reversing the nines at Spyglass Hill and Mike Dugger observed that Spyglass is a classic case of “what if”.
I’m wondering whether there really are many examples like Spyglass, that is to say designs where you are immediately inclined to wonder why the architect didn’t do something totally different. I played three world famous golf courses recently (Yale, Garden City and Winged Foot) and none of them provoked such a feeling.
Let me be clear: I’m not talking about changing the design of a single hole or two. I have in mind the entire configuration of the course.
Can anyone think of other big “what ifs”? Does Spyglass have the dubious honor of leading the pack by this measure?
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Great topic!
I'd guess this is not what you're after (and I lead the pack in that area), but the biggest what if I can think of is what if Raynor hadn't died and his routing of Cypress had come to fruition?
Another one occurs close by there, and interestingly is about to be rectified: the question about the Shore course at Monterey Peninsula Country Club always was "what if the course was routed so that one FACES the view toward Cypress more, instead of so many holes playing with that at one's back?" The Strantz re-do there is going to fix this in a big way...
TH
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Tim,
I know of your reverence for spyglass, thus I hope you did not take my comment in jest. I merely conveyed the opinion of Mr. Doak, and happen to agree with it. I've always wondered why Spyglass was so segmented. Five holes of a flavour completely different than the others.
Why Mr. Jones felt inclined to rout the course in this manner I don't understand, but it is certainly a great stretch of holes.
As far as other what ifs go......I'll nominate the following:
Sandpines
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It has been discussed before but a wonderful "what if" would be if Pebble was rerouted so that the first 9 holes were inland and the last 9 back along the cliffs ...
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Huck
I'm slightly thrown off by you bringing up Cypress. Do you really think that Raynor's routing, over that piece of land, would have resulted in a significantly different final product?
Cypress is already renowned as one of the best five courses in the world, doesn't "what if" consititute wasted potential, not "still great, but different"?
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Tim,
As far as other what ifs go......I'll nominate the following:
Sandpines
I'll second that nomination. I'd go into details and why-fors but my Anger Management class has taught me to go to happy places and not to relive torturous memories of bad places.
"Happy! Happy! Joy! Joy! . . ." Stimpy
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Mdugger:
It's more of a curiousity than anything else. Given the VERY different styles between Raynor and the Good Doctor, it's just easy to ask my question... what would he have done differently... I'm not at all suggesting any shortcomings in what's there - hell I've said many times it's among the very shortest list of my favorite courses on the planet. Nope, this is more intellectual curiousity....
TH
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hUCK
i hear ya.
In the name of intelletual curiousity, how would Raynor's style have fit that land, in your opinion?
square greens
symetrical bunkers......at Cypress Point!
I don't know that I would dig that.
Would it have been much like Fisher's??
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Mdug:
We need the Raynor experts like Mr. Bahto to really weigh in on this... I am such a neophyte re him, I really can't say much. But yeah, picture a biarritz/short/prize dog leg, all somewhere on that landform... that's the kinda curiousity I'm talking about. Who knows if it would be better, and I'm with you, I don't think I'd dig it either, but it is interesting to contemplate. Maybe Raynor keeps 16 as a par 4? Maybe Raynor takes the Paulian/Goodalian approach and routs it backward from what MacK did??? All good food for thought.
I think Geoff addresses this to some extent in his Cypress book.. damn, it's at home, I can't look it up.
TH
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Slag:
Sandpines might be disqualified for "severe emotional content" reasons!
Tom Huckaby:
Actually, a while back I wondered about Cypress Point myself. Not so much about what Raynor might have done - though surely that would be interesting - but more in terms of asking what Cypress might have been like if Mackenzie had utlitlized more of the sand hills going over towards Spyglass.
I recall Bob Huntley thinking it was an interesting question, but others feeling that the variety at Cypress (the inland holes in the woods) was part of its charm.
But, for better or worse, such a routing plan might have significantly changed the course. I think.
FYI, Geoff Shackelford's book mentions how Mackenzie wanted to place #14 tee close to the water. Unfortunately, 17 Mile Drive got in the way of that idea.
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Tim:
Those are all great what ifs. I understand about 14 and the road - that makes sense to me - but add to the what if re taking more land over the sand hill that if they did that, less would have been available for Spyglass app. 40 years later.... Intriguing, huh?
Add me to those who love the "inland" holes, btw. But then again, there's nothing about that course I don't love, just as it is. That being said it is still fun to contemplate these what ifs.
TH
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Tim:
To borrow an expression my late father used to say to me when I often raised the subject of "what if" he would offer the following:
"If the queen had b*lls she'd be the king." If is a great word but if often flies in the face of what is.
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Well sure, Matt. Still, it is interesting to contemplate, and at least in some instances, like MPCC-Shore, the what-if comes to fruition....
TH
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Tim,
Spyglass is not what many want to see given the site (myself included admittedly), but it is still a good golf course. Is the problem that you are "what if"ing in the routing or is just in the details?
Tom,
I look at the question of Cypress and wonder, could it have been worse and not better?
Mine, would be the Ballybunion Cashen Course
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I'm confused--
There seems to be the belief that RTJ somehow had a large plot of coastal dune land to lay out Spyglass on-- Nothing could be further from the truth--
The area that he was permitted to intrude into the "sacred" coastal dunes is really tiny(very, very tiny)--(and given the experience of Spanish Bay, would have non-existence a few years later)--
The first hole is really a hole in the pine forest, excepting the green complex which is at the edge of the dunes--The tee on the second and most of the fairway is on the edge of dunes with only the right of the fairway and green complex in the dunes-- The third, 4th and 5th(two of which are par threes) are in the dunes, but only the green complexes and the fairway on the 4th(which runs adjoining a previously existing road) are any improvements or alterations made to the natural state--
I'm a little confused as to what you think RTJ could do given the servere restrictions in the area--I am amazed he fit 5 holes into the extremely limited area he had--
I personally(as I posted before) like the routing-- The start of the round from the chute on 1 around the dogleg, down the hill and into the green complex on 1 is one of the best in golf--
You need to put it at the beginning or the end--I like it at the start--
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Ian Andrew:
There aren't many courses I'd claim to be an "expert" on, but with Ballybunion's Cashen I don't mind making such a claim as I've played it countless times and one of my very closest friends hit balls for RTJ during construction.
Mind you I have no expectation that people love the place. Indeed, I love playing it when it is deserted so much, that I'd almost prefer to avoid challenging its bad reputation. But, since you brought up the subject, can you share what you would have done differently than RTJ did?
P.S. The club is currently planning for some modifications, possibly under the direction of favored son Tom Watson. I'll hold off sharing what I've heard so far, but like changes to the Old Course, I would expect anything major.
Oh.....I almost forgot to answer your question about "what ifs" for Spyglass or elsewhere. Really I was thinking the routing which was why I cited the example of Cypress Point. Tom Huckaby may be right. Grabbing more of the sand hills for Cypress might have killed Spyglass or at least demoted its statue to something like Poppy Hills.
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Dennis:
As I understand it two questions have been raised about the routing at Spyglass:
1) Why didn't the good stuff come at the end?
2) Why didn't the good stuff get mixed throughout the routing?
#1 seems just like a matter of personal preference. That's why I've always felt RTJ decided to do the opposite of what Mackenzie did next door.
#2 seems like it would really some careful analysis to determine how practical it would have been given the limited dunes area. FYI, Tom Doak raises some doubt as to whether this alternative was possible in his Cconfidential Guide review.
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Tim Weiman,
You and MDugger are a few miles off.
The real what if in that part of the world is Spanish Bay.
What if they put the hotel on the eastern end of the property instead of right in the middle ?
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i would agree with ian on ballybunions cashen course....world class links site with unlinks greens complexes....never would have guessed it was designed by RTJ....still can't believe it.
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Here's a good one for you, one I've thought about a bit:
What if Mike Keiser had owned all the property in Bandon from day one, and given David Kidd (or me) free choice over all of it?
Would that course be even better than either of the two which exist today? (I'm sure it would have more "ocean" holes.)
Would it be enough better to offset the fact that the leftover land probably wouldn't be nearly as good as either of the two that we built?
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The National Golf Club (VIC, Australia), Ocean Course.
Peter Thomson gets first pick of the land for the two courses, correctly chooses the right parcel on which to route, and designs a very poor course that is eaten alive by the course built by Norman on the leftover real estate.
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One that jumps out at me is New Seabury on Cape Cod, with the front nine and its beautiful views of the water on every hole, followed by a far less dramatic inland back nine. The course tried to switch the nines a year or two ago for reasons discussed in previous threads. But it did give me a feeling similar to the one i had when I played Spyglass, except that Spyglass is much better.
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Paul Cowley:
If you are suggesting that the big problem with the Cashen is the green complexes, you might have to credit (or fault) my good friend who played near scratch at the time. RTJ had him hit shots to numerous locations when selecting green locations and if he could do it, that was apparently good enough for Mr. Jones. I've never heard of any 18 handicap player being asked his opinion on the difficulty of some of the shots.
An interesting insight into the Cashen comes during the winter when the rough is dormant and some key fairways play wider. You still have all the challenge of the fierce wind, but certain shots just play far more reasonably......and pleasurably.
Pat Mucci:
I agree with you on Spanish Bay and would love to know why the hotel was placed where it was.
Tom Doak:
Obviously, I'm not intimately familiar with the Bandon property, but I guess I'm glad the situation you describe didn't exist. Just like some folks here expressed something would have been lost at Cypress Point if Mackenzie had more of the sand hills going over towards Spyglass, I think the loss of Pacific Dunes - the variety, the inland holes - would have been a shame.
But, the tradoff is worth thinking about.
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One of my what if's is if the property bellow Pismo Beach--Guadlupe Dunes would have/could have ever been allowed to be built, golf courses of the links variety.
But NO! Union Oil Company of California got the land and spoiled it by polluting it, and it while it is being cleaned-up today, one can't help to think of what it could have offered to Golf.
I think many of you would have been making the trek to California to play those courses, and just to think who may have been the designers back in those days is pure wonderment!
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What if Tom Doak hadn't inherited the routing at Stonewall?
Would he have handled the lower, wetlands area of the property in the same way? Would the 5th hole be a dropshot par three totally over wetlands? Would he have relegated the two par threes on the back nine to the edges of the routing? Would he have created the short 17th in the same way to get to the site of the 18th tee?
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I find myself agreeing with Dennis more and more re:Spy.
All these courses, in this very close proximity, chose to have routings that went into and out of the forest. No doubt for variety, as the old Shore course has/had :'( and is paramount to keeping not only our interest but increasing the challenge of estimating everchanging variables. (fogline wind being most mystycal) Thinking about sacrificeing a routing for the visual of the chapel, smells like a hernia, to me. Up and back to the shore repeatedly will only increase the need for mechanized conveyence, on both Spy and the Shore.
What if the clubhouse at spy was at the bottom of the hill? It wouldnt be spyglass hill. Which already came with it's own lore.
What if RTJ hadn't cut and burned on site? Would the drainage be better? What if RTJ didn't practically beg for the commision or spent twice as much (600K in 66')?
Pat and all who wonder about Spanish, I can tell you what probably would've happened if the hotel was moved. It wouldn't have been the success it is, and the likelyhood of there being no course would also be increased. But maybe, knowing your ops about the place, it's just inherent in your nature.
WHAT IF, man's constant desire to "out-do" never entered into the minds of the collective architecture?
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What if golf rather than baseball had become the American pass-time and rather than ball fields in every small and large town, golf was provided by the park and recreation departments or recreational golf clubs or societies as a priority, back in the turn of the century? Would we than have something of the Irish-Scot model of a game and golf course design sensibilities that stressed game and functional course strategy over glitz and marketing?
To some extent we almost had that in the pre-depression and the 30s when work projects like WPA took on park and recreation work projects and we got places like Bethpage and many others, for the public enjoyment. However, the golf development scene was more oriented to resorts, exclusive private clubs, and homesite amenities, and certain elements about the game and its field of play seemed to have gotten alterered, not for the betterment of architecture or spirit in my view.
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A Clayman,
It's not opposition to Spanish Bay, it's just that I think a better golf course could have been built on that property.
You have an affinity for the place, and I understand that.
But, having a golf course where one could play, without the eyesore of a large building in the middle of the golf course, would seem more desireable, especially when the 270 degree view would have been the Pacific Coastline.
One only need to look at Bandon Dunes to see the benefit of putting the hotel and buildings on the eastern side of the property. Had they done the same at Spanish Bay, there is no doubt in my mind that a better golf product would have been created. Mike Keiser did it the right way.
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Tim,
As far as other what ifs go......I'll nominate the following:
Sandpines
I'll second that nomination. I'd go into details and why-fors but my Anger Management class has taught me to go to happy places and not to relive torturous memories of bad places.
"Happy! Happy! Joy! Joy! . . ." Stimpy
I will 3rd that nomination
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Pat- I agree that the course would have to be better. But in the real world the justification for building a golf course is rarely about the golf. :'( :'(
I haven't been up north yet but I see the advantages of having an obstruction free coastal (or anywhere) g.c.