Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Tim Liddy on August 08, 2012, 07:26:54 AM
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The Dye - Raynor connection. How many template holes can you name?
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I'll take a look and let you know. Fairly confident that there is no "Short."
http://www.pga.com/pgachampionship/course/tour/1
If you watch the CGI video flyovers, you only have to watch the DiGiorno pizza commercial once.
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Is #5 Pete's tribute to #17 at Pebble Beach?
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I'll take a look and let you know. Fairly confident that there is no "Short."
Take a closer look at #8.
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The Dye - Raynor connection. How many template holes can you name?
Of the par 3's #5 could be a biarritz (long narrow green with front and back pins playing totally different), #8 is pretty close to a short hole, #14 is a pretty severe redan, and #17 would is nothing close to what Raynor would build.
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#14 has Redan characteristics but isn't a true Redan. No kickplate or run-up option.
http://www.pga.com/pgachampionship/course/tour/14 (http://www.pga.com/pgachampionship/course/tour/14)
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I can remember playing golf with Jim Yonce, Superintendent at Yeaman's Hall in Charleston. We were walking off the 18th green at Long Cove and he turned around, looked down the fairway and said, "Pete Dye is a modern day Seth Raynor." If anyone course see the similarites, that's your man!
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#14 has Redan characteristics but isn't a true Redan. No kickplate or run-up option.
http://www.pga.com/pgachampionship/course/tour/14 (http://www.pga.com/pgachampionship/course/tour/14)
Howard,
I should of prefaced my comments above with "if you squint..." :)
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#3 uses the tree to play with Alps like characteristics.
I'd say the most striking resemblance is in the steep bunker faces with sharp edges on multiple holes
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Guys, guys, guys...I thought, for one brief & hallucinogenic moment, that #8 could be a short. Then i saw all the grass...ALL THE GRASS in front. "kind of" doesn't cut it here; either it is or it isn't.
Now, argue my assertion that 5 is a tribute to Pebble's 17th...Pat, it can't be a Biarritz because it has a rise, not a dip, in the middle.
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According to Ran's profile, the 8th has Reverse Redan characteristics.
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I think this topic is really interesting. I could see how Dye could have possibly used many templates on several of his courses, the just look so different that not many people could directly pull the inspiration.
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If 8 is possessed of an elevated putting surface, with no kick plate, can it have Reverse Redan characteristics?
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If 8 is possessed of an elevated putting surface, with no kick plate, can it have Reverse Redan characteristics?
I agree I don't really see it there. I'm not sure that hole fits a template.
The 13th is a Cape, although the angle off the tee isn't quite what it should be. It is definitely a Cape-style green though.
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Tim,
How about throwing in some Langford and Moreau.
The nine hole, Harrison Hills and Culver Academy?
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.Pat, it can't be a Biarritz because it has a rise, not a dip, in the middle.
And Voila! A Reverse Biarritz is born!
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12 - Bottle
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Tim,
How about throwing in some Langford and Moreau.
The nine hole, Harrison Hills and Culver Academy?
Thank you, JC, for this. What Dye-Raynor connection? Everyone knows it's a Dye-Langford connection. ;)
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I have wondered whether the 18th at Whistling Straits could be Dye's attempt at a Strategy hole? Did not turn out so well, but I wonder if that might be where he came up with the idea. (not sure I completely get the difference between Strategy & Channel, so feel free to correct me)
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Tim...
...Langford/Liddy...
The nine (18) hole, Harrison Hills...
This whole thread is like some architectural mobius strip. It's making my head hurt...
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Personally, I think Dye uses templates as much as any modern architect. But they seem to me to be his own creations and not those of CMB/Raynor. My guess is that if you find a Dye hole that fits the strategic mold of a prized dogleg it is largely coincidence. On the other hand, if you find a short par four where the pin can be seen from the tee but is partially or entirely obscured from landing zone, then you've got a common Dye template.
As an aside, in my opinion Raynor's greatest strength was the ability to work his templates into a wide variety of properties and landscapes to create holes similar in concept yet different enough to avoid redundancy. For example, each Raynor redan I've played fits both within the context of the course and within the broader context of its comparative relationship to other Raynor redans without losing any interest. That's a tough thing to pull off and Raynor did. I don't get the same feeling from Dye's templates.
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The par five holes that you see at Kiawah are usually found on his more recognized courses. The double dogleg with the severe hazard are encountered at Sawgrass, Kiawah and Whistling Straits.
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I would love to hear Pete Dye's response to this inquiry
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Personally, I think Dye uses templates as much as any modern architect. But they seem to me to be his own creations and not those of CMB/Raynor. My guess is that if you find a Dye hole that fits the strategic mold of a prized dogleg it is largely coincidence. On the other hand, if you find a short par four where the pin can be seen from the tee but is partially or entirely obscured from landing zone, then you've got a common Dye template.
As an aside, in my opinion Raynor's greatest strength was the ability to work his templates into a wide variety of properties and landscapes to create holes similar in concept yet different enough to avoid redundancy. For example, each Raynor redan I've played fits both within the context of the course and within the broader context of its comparative relationship to other Raynor redans without losing any interest. That's a tough thing to pull off and Raynor did. I don't get the same feeling from Dye's templates.
Ed, I think you hit the nail on the head. One of the "templates" I've found common to Dye's courses are holes like #14 at Harbour Town, where there is lateral trouble on one side of the green with a bailout to the other. If you take the bailout you leave yourself an almost impossible shot to a green that runs away towards the hazard.
A second Dye template is (usually a finishing hole) #18 at TPC Sawgrass and Harbour Town, a bite off as much as you dare chew tee shot (some might say "Cape" tee shot, but Mr. Bahto has shown me the error of my ways on that point) to a green that juts out into a hazard. It's a "cape" hole for sure, but what makes Dye's special is that unlike Raynor's capes which were usually short-ish, these are long, monster par-4's that leave you plenty of room to bailout, but punish the bailout with a shot that makes finding the putting surface in 2 almost impossible.
A third Dye template is the short par 4 to a tiny, severely elevated green that is generally not circular. It requires a precise shot with a short iron to reach either the front or back of the green. Here I'm thinking of holes like #2 at Heron Point (Sea Pines) and #3 at Kiawah.
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I am anxious to hear Tim Liddy's input since he started this thread. I'm sure he has more to add on the matter.
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None are pure templates but if I were to assign the par threes there is some resemblance as follows:
8- redan
17 - Eden
14 - short - at least from the tees I played (165 or so)
5 Biarritz
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Construction:
The hard and straight edges of fairway and green slopes. Many fall-offs on Dye greens, typically on all sides which might confuse some on the overall concept.
The front nine (would love for George Bahto to chime in).
#2 Cape tee shot, described well above
#3 Cape tee shot, Tillinghast green
#4 Cape Tee shot (strengthened with pot bunkers)
#5 Biarritz with roll instead of swale
#6 Cape tee shot, Donald Ross reverse par 4 (R to L off tee, L to R into Green)
#7 Cape tee shot, cape second shot, described well above
#8 Short (2 level green)
#9 Cape tee shot
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Construction:
#8 Short (2 level green)
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Really?
The slope on the green is much more redan-like to me.
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Jason,
Was not designed as a Redan although it has a fall-off. #14 is a Redan design concept.
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I wonder if CB Macdonald would be fond of his original intent for mimicking the characteristics of great golf holes being twisted the way it is today. The more I read modern architecture books and even this website, the more I am convinced that the modern obsession over templates is more derived from aesthetic than playing characteristics. People like templates because it makes them able to undertsand something better. It gives them comfort if they can fit a certain hole into a category, rather than genuinly examine it for what it is singularly. It reminds me of the widely held belief I've heard that #3 at Pine Valley could be a redan. Nothing is further fromr reality, in my opinion.
My thought is that Pete Dye probably couldn't give a hoot about someone saying his golf holes could fit into some predefined mold. But again, that's just my opinion.
Golf holes are infinite in variety and shape. But because golf is played with a ball, in a direction of a hole, with predefined limits (fairways and greens) on where the game is played, then there are only a few dozen concepts of how to get from A to B. ID'ing those concepts and then attaching a name to them does not make someone more enlightened architecturally. Rather, I feel it limits us.
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Tim, I'm with you on the angularity but strict Raynor constructionists will note that a Cape refers to a green jutting out into water or air and not the tee shot.
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Jason,
Was not designed as a Redan although it has a fall-off. #14 is a Redan design concept.
Funny - I did not notice the Redan concept there at all, perhaps because the tees we played (maybe 165-175 yards) were at less of an angle. It seemed to me a hole where you hit it to the middle of the green because anything landing on the back half was going over.
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Thanks Mark. I was trying to make another point, but understand this site is much about definitions.
To Ben's point, I think the templates are more about having a vocabulary to explain the creative process and also how Kiawah's shaping supports the MacDonald template aesthetic.
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Different PGA (Whistling Straits), but still Dye on Raynor:
http://jayflemma.thegolfspace.com/?p=3052
Pete Dye: 3rd hole…which is the second hole that plays along the lake.
Jay Flemma: Three is the Redan, right? The par-3?
Pete Dye: Yes, it’s similar to a Redan. The one at Berwick has contours on the green where the back is lower than the front and there’s a big roll in it. Now when I bunkered the one at Whistling I wanted to make it look like that part of the green is hanging into the lake.
Jay Flemma: So you wanted to create a Cape-like element – where the green feels like it’s out on a peninsula – but to also set-up and play like a Redan?
Pete Dye: Yes, that’s right. Seth Raynor used to do Redans everywhere he did a golf course. He built similar things at courses everywhere he went, and he built Redans everywhere in particular. I think Redan means fortress…anyway, we have the same contours. First, you have to make it big, because you have to put the big roll in it where the back is lower than the front. The green is also a little right to left. Now even though the back is lower than the front, you can still see the back left corner. Ours does the same thing as the one at Berwick and the ones Raynor built. And I also wanted to give the illusion the back was sitting in the water.
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This is a fascinating topic. Dye always seems to have a redan like green on his courses, but in my limited experience they don't really accept run up shots.
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Thanks Eric. I wonder if Jay asked him about the "train wreck" #17th template hole (Whistling Straits, Kiawah, Players). :)
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Thanks Eric. I wonder if Jay asked him about the "train wreck" #17th template hole (Whistling Straits, Kiawah, Players). :)
Hell, I might even throw Harbour Town in there. Here's the view from the tips:
(http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/5288_698005993235_169835_n.jpg)
The little 1 foot-wide traps in the back are incredibly difficult too.
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Thanks Eric. I wonder if Jay asked him about the "train wreck" #17th template hole (Whistling Straits, Kiawah, Players). :)
Pretty sure those were all Ally's idea....
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Tim, he talked a lot about 17.
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Are there any other notably difficult #17's in his portfolio? #17 at Bulle Rock springs to mind as well. It's hard, but not ridiculous.
(http://www.bullerockgolf.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/17GPS.bmp)
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17 at PGA West should also be on the list. 17 at Crooked Stick plays 217yds from the tips to a deep, but narrow, undulating surface guarded by a 15' deep bunker left, severe mounding right, and hidden pond long. Hit the green or bogey is a great score. Embedding images isn't working for me at the moment. Link to a few pics of CS#17 below.
http://www5.snapfish.com/snapfish/thumbnailshare/AlbumID=6845717027/a=3852168027_3852168027/otsc=SHR/otsi=SALBlink/COBRAND_NAME=snapfish/
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Dye's got his own set of templates.... or cliches, depending on how you feel about them.
Even on Kiawah, I see a lot of typical holes of his. S-shaped par fours and par fives with giant waste bunkers. The Par 5, Par 3, Par 4 finish. The "train wreck" 17th, as mentioned. The bruiser par-4 18th, usually with large hazard.
If anything, my one critique of Kiawah is that a lot of the holes tend to look identical, at least on the TV coverage. I had a hard time telling #12 and #13 apart. I also thought a couple of the par-threes looked very similar.
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Dye's got his own set of templates.... or cliches, depending on how you feel about them.
Even on Kiawah, I see a lot of typical holes of his. S-shaped par fours and par fives with giant waste bunkers. The Par 5, Par 3, Par 4 finish. The "train wreck" 17th, as mentioned. The bruiser par-4 18th, usually with large hazard.
If anything, my one critique of Kiawah is that a lot of the holes tend to look identical, at least on the TV coverage. I had a hard time telling #12 and #13 apart. I also thought a couple of the par-threes looked very similar.
I felt that way the three times I played it over 17 years.
Not my cup of tea but I'm clearly OK with that.
That's probably why I play a lot of uncrowded courses ;) ;D
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Perhaps the answer to the question regarding influence lies in the number of CBM/SR/CB courses where Pete has been their consultant.
Piping Rock stands out as one.
What are the others ?