Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Steve_ Shaffer on August 06, 2012, 01:45:08 AM
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Matt Ward selects his 10 choices...Black Mesa, Rustic Canyon, etc
http://www.back9network.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=28400&ATCLID=205497341
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This must be a first: it's very hard to argue with Matt about those choices. It's a great list.
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Looks like a solid list.
In the Southeast, Arrowhead Pointe and Aiken deserve mention.
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Looks like a solid list.
In the Southeast, Arrowhead Pointe and Aiken deserve mention.
Haven't played Arrowhead Pointe, but Aiken for sure, and Longshadow should be in there too.
We met up with California private club members at Reynolds Plantation and played Great Waters. In spite of the shabby conditions at Longshadow the next day, they strongly preferred Longshadow over GW. I'm sure LS is in much better shape now with Mike in charge.
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Are we sure this is Matt Ward, pardner?
When did he become "M. James Ward"?
P.S. You know that old fortune-cookie "game" where you read the fortune and add "... in bed" at the end?
I'm finding myself adding "pardner" to the end of each review. I like them so much better that way. Everyone's a critic!
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Kudos to Matt for his much improved writing.
Pacific Grove belongs, but, I guess "Bang" in Wardian terms translates to CR and rating.
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Kudos to Matt for his much improved writing.
Pacific Grove belongs, but, I guess "Bang" in Wardian terms translates to CR and rating.
Adam,
Pacific Grove is a nice value (especially for the area) but do you really think the course as a whole is at the same level as these courses? I certainly would not put it in this class....
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Great list. But I think Commonground *has* to be on it for it to be complete.
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Can't be Matt...there was inclusion of a FL course.
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Can't be Matt...there was inclusion of a FL course.
Could be Matt. No Pennsy course. ;)
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I guess it is Matt, but the lack of an "!" in the title of this thread is a missed opportunity, indeed.
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Are we sure this is Matt Ward, pardner?
Of course it's him. Black Mesa is mentioned first in the article. :)
Nice to see Archie's Twisted Dune mentioned. Very fun course.
What time does the Crump Cup start next month? Maybe a group trip to T.D. afterwards is in order if there is time?
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This must be a first: it's very hard to argue with Matt about those choices. It's a great list.
Agreed
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If this were a list of 20 courses, what would you add.
I'll start with Links of ND, Rochelle Ranch, Angel's Crossing, The Warren Course and Vista Verde.
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Didn't Pinon Hills in New Mexico used to be a regular on that kind of list?
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This must be a first: it's very hard to argue with Matt about those choices. It's a great list.
Agreed
Patrick,
How many of the subject courses have you played? Can you legitimately comment on this topic?
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.
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Caledonia comes to mind. Kiva Dunes is a possibility. Yes, Pinion Hills is a course that in the past was always mentioned on such lists. The Mines in Grand Rapids and Wild Horse are obvious omissions.
Bart
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As usual, folks want a 10 list to be for 20 courses. Thats the where the crunch of personal opinion comes in.
Ciao
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Caledonia comes to mind. Kiva Dunes is a possibility. Yes, Pinion Hills is a course that in the past was always mentioned on such lists. The Mines in Grand Rapids and Wild Horse are obvious omissions.
Bart
Bart:
Wild Horse is on the list.
Sean:
I suggested expanding the list to 20 not because I disagreed with those listed in the article, but rather to be a bit more inclusive in the discussion. The more conversation on this topic the better, unless we're trying to keep some of those gems still in the hidden category.
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Caledonia comes to mind. Kiva Dunes is a possibility. Yes, Pinion Hills is a course that in the past was always mentioned on such lists. The Mines in Grand Rapids and Wild Horse are obvious omissions.
Bart
Bart:
Wild Horse is on the list.
Sean:
I suggested expanding the list to 20 not because I disagreed with those listed in the article, but rather to be a bit more inclusive in the discussion. The more conversation on this topic the better, unless we're trying to keep some of those gems still in the hidden category.
Sven
Matt was probably lucky to have the space to list 10 courses.
Ciao
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Caledonia comes to mind. Kiva Dunes is a possibility. Yes, Pinion Hills is a course that in the past was always mentioned on such lists. The Mines in Grand Rapids and Wild Horse are obvious omissions.
Bart
Bart:
Wild Horse is on the list.
Sean:
I suggested expanding the list to 20 not because I disagreed with those listed in the article, but rather to be a bit more inclusive in the discussion. The more conversation on this topic the better, unless we're trying to keep some of those gems still in the hidden category.
Sven
Matt was probably lucky to have the space to list 10 courses.
Ciao
His list is really 12 courses, no?
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Caledonia comes to mind. Kiva Dunes is a possibility. Yes, Pinion Hills is a course that in the past was always mentioned on such lists. The Mines in Grand Rapids and Wild Horse are obvious omissions.
Bart
Bart:
Wild Horse is on the list.
Sean:
I suggested expanding the list to 20 not because I disagreed with those listed in the article, but rather to be a bit more inclusive in the discussion. The more conversation on this topic the better, unless we're trying to keep some of those gems still in the hidden category.
Sven
Matt was probably lucky to have the space to list 10 courses.
Ciao
His list is really 12 courses, no?
Does he do an executive list too?
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In the Valley of somewhat overpriced golf I'll 2nd Vista Verde but I'd put Southern Dunes a notch above for value.
Lulu for $58 all day gives PA an entry :)
I haven't played it but isn't Montauk Downs worthy?
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In the Valley of somewhat overpriced golf I'll 2nd Vista Verde but I'd put Southern Dunes a notch above for value.
Lulu for $58 all day gives PA an entry :)
I haven't played it but isn't Montauk Downs worthy?
Chris rings the bell with Lulu. A fantastic option and to get it around twice for $58 is truly a bargain!
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It's great that Matt has a paid gig. Don't want to go to the well too often.
Since all but Patrick have been waiting for my dux on this matter, I'll be brief:
There will be peace in the valley (sorry, Elvis mix is on at B&N coffee shop)
We'all could come up with 100 BBFYBITUSA pieces and none would be shot down. There are that many good courses and you'uns are terrific list compilers. I salute Matt's list and encourage y'all to fill this thread with your own lists. The only flaw to Matt's list is, you couldn't hit it efficiently in one trip, if banging for your buck were the first criterion.
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Adam,
Pacific Grove is a nice value (especially for the area) but do you really think the course as a whole is at the same level as these courses? I certainly would not put it in this class....
Sean,
As my post intimated, it depends on your definition of "bang".
Playing along the coast of the Monterey Peninsula is pretty big bang. I played it over a thousand times and it kept my interest, every time. So yes, I do think it deserves mention when associating price to golf. It's a huge value.
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Ronald is right, everyone on this board could have their own list and they would all be worth a look. As much as we like to lament certain aspects of the world of golf and its courses, there are plenty of great values to be had.
My two cents...
The Trophy Club (Lebanon, IN) - I've said plenty about this course before, but $59 for 36 holes is hard to beat. Tim Liddy made the most out of this site, using the existing landforms to create interest and variety. I'm about 3 hours away and if a year goes by that I don't play TC I'm a little disappointed.
Gibson Bay (Richmond, KY) - Looking at their website, it seems they've jacked up their rates...all the way to $15 weekdays and $24 weekends (with a ridiculous twilight of $10). I haven't played Gibson Bay in about 10 years, so I'd be interested to hear how they are doing these days. When I was in the area, it would occasionally be a bit crowded and slow. However, more often than not it wasn't an issue.
Keller Golf Course (Maplewood, MN) - When I lived in the area, it was typically in really good shape. You get the feel of a classic golden age course with the dedicated clientele of a beloved muni, a great vibe that I hope remains following Richard Mandel's work and the construction of the new clubhouse.
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Matthew, it's been about four years since I've played Gibson Bay, but I think it's the best course I've ever played for under $24 and maybe the best municipal facility I've ever seen. It's a great asset to the community of Richmond and a genuinely good golf course in spite of its tiny pricetag. I've always been most impressed by how good of condition they keep the greens in despite such high levels of play. I played it often while getting my Masters at EKU. As a complex, it reminds me a lot of CommonGround. It's probably not quite as good of a course, but reasonably close.
We're also in agreement on The Trophy Club. I recall Matt being a big fan of that one as well and am a little surprised it didn't make his list.
There's a case to be made for The Harvester in Iowa. For that matter, the aforementioned CommonGround could probably make a case as well. Still, I'm not sure that I'd bump anything on the list for any of the courses I've mentioned above.
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This is a heck of a good list. There are others that could fit in, sure, but I'd be happy to play a rotation of these for the rest of my days.
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In the Valley of somewhat overpriced golf I'll 2nd Vista Verde but I'd put Southern Dunes a notch above for value.
Lulu for $58 all day gives PA an entry :)
I haven't played it but isn't Montauk Downs worthy?
I really like Southern Dunes, but int the high season it's well into the triple digits to play there. Not much value, though it is a good course.
I don't think Vista Verde is quite as expensive, though I wouldn't be surprised if it too is over $100 in the winter.
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I think even more impressive would be to put together a list of courses you could play for under $40 in non twilight peak season.
Between Spokane and Utah, I know a few that would be high on that list.
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In the Valley of somewhat overpriced golf I'll 2nd Vista Verde but I'd put Southern Dunes a notch above for value.
Lulu for $58 all day gives PA an entry :)
I haven't played it but isn't Montauk Downs worthy?
I really like Southern Dunes, but int the high season it's well into the triple digits to play there. Not much value, though it is a good course.
I don't think Vista Verde is quite as expensive, though I wouldn't be surprised if it too is over $100 in the winter.
Matt,
I've played SD a few times and always in the end of April shoulder season. Latest was a couple of years ago and it was just over $100 for all day golf with full use of the facilities (nice clubhouse). Most of the other A list publics in the area were nearly double that, except for V V which was about the same as Dunes but the facilities are a little more "rustic". Both amongst the very best of the Phoenix value scale for very good golf, IMO.
At the same time of year The Rim at $75 for multiple plays is pretty darn good as well.
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In the Valley of somewhat overpriced golf I'll 2nd Vista Verde but I'd put Southern Dunes a notch above for value.
Lulu for $58 all day gives PA an entry :)
I haven't played it but isn't Montauk Downs worthy?
I really like Southern Dunes, but int the high season it's well into the triple digits to play there. Not much value, though it is a good course.
I don't think Vista Verde is quite as expensive, though I wouldn't be surprised if it too is over $100 in the winter.
Matt,
I've played SD a few times and always in the end of April shoulder season. Latest was a couple of years ago and it was just over $100 for all day golf with full use of the facilities (nice clubhouse). Most of the other A list publics in the area were nearly double that, except for V V which was about the same as Dunes but the facilities are a little more "rustic". Both amongst the very best of the Phoenix value scale for very good golf, IMO.
At the same time of year The Rim at $75 for multiple plays is pretty darn good as well.
Hi Chris,
The courses at WeKoPa run similar rates as Southern Dunes pretty much all year. SD is certainly cheaper than other Troon-run courses in the region, but there's plenty of good golf that can be had at the same rate as SD.
Ultimately, there's probably nothing in the Valley that can ever really qualify as a really great bang for your buck ... unless like me you're crazy and don't mind playing when it's 115 (I am in fact getting ready to schedule a tee time for tomorrow! Forecast high a balmy 117). The likes of Southern Dunes, Vista Verde, WeKoPa, and some of the nice west side tracks like Verrado and Estrella Mountain would be the best options within the Valley, IMO.
As for the Rim, are they still taking public play? I got up there once a couple summers ago, but my impression was they had closed their doors again. Our family has a cabin half an hour east of there so if access is available, I'm eager to know it.
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I'm playing Raven @Verrado tomorrow at 730am when it will be about 90 then and 100 or so by noon. $29 or $39 with a $15 food credit. That's a value!!!!
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I'm playing Raven @Verrado tomorrow at 730am when it will be about 90 then and 100 or so by noon. $29 or $39 with a $15 food credit. That's a value!!!!
Once past the boring opener I found this course enjoyable and would certainly call it a value at those rates. Preferred Estrella Mountain Ranch but have no idea what their rates might be,
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Great list. But I think Commonground *has* to be on it for it to be complete.
I tend to agree but it looks like Matt is going for some diversity across architects and geography, thus only 1 Doak course and only 1 course from Colorado.
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In the Valley of somewhat overpriced golf I'll 2nd Vista Verde but I'd put Southern Dunes a notch above for value.
Lulu for $58 all day gives PA an entry :)
I haven't played it but isn't Montauk Downs worthy?
Chris rings the bell with Lulu. A fantastic option and to get it around twice for $58 is truly a bargain!
I couldn't agree more on Lulu, $58 is a steal, especially in this area. However, my understanding is that it will go private again before long once they achieve their membership goals.
Matt being a New Jersey guy, I am kind of surprised he did not mention Knoll West, which tops out at $89 for non-residents on weekends with a cart, which is cheaper than many public options in North Jersey.
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In the Valley of somewhat overpriced golf I'll 2nd Vista Verde but I'd put Southern Dunes a notch above for value.
Lulu for $58 all day gives PA an entry :)
I haven't played it but isn't Montauk Downs worthy?
Chris rings the bell with Lulu. A fantastic option and to get it around twice for $58 is truly a bargain!
I couldn't agree more on Lulu, $58 is a steal, especially in this area. However, my understanding is that it will go private again before long once they achieve their membership goals.
Matt being a New Jersey guy, I am kind of surprised he did not mention Knoll West, which tops out at $89 for non-residents on weekends with a cart, which is cheaper than many public options in North Jersey.
Ben-Knoll West has some nice deals after 1:00 and 3:00 if I`m not mistaken and I know you are a big fan.
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Any love for Hominy Hill, Monmouth County, NJ?
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;D ;D ;D
Matt has always been a big fan/supporter of Twisted Dune, and his praise for the golf course is much appreciated. Obviously it's much harder to take care of a busy golf course, so deserved kudos to all the staffs who run these golf courses so well!
I'd like to have a fall outing at Twisted , and will do some planning for same. Perhaps we can have it Saturday afternoon before the Crump Cup final, as we are less than an hour from PV . Accommodations at the shore are quite reasonable post labor day, and the weather tends to be perfect. Let's do it !
I'll get a few volunteers to help me organize, and make it a good party .
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In the Valley of somewhat overpriced golf I'll 2nd Vista Verde but I'd put Southern Dunes a notch above for value.
Lulu for $58 all day gives PA an entry :)
I haven't played it but isn't Montauk Downs worthy?
Chris rings the bell with Lulu. A fantastic option and to get it around twice for $58 is truly a bargain!
I couldn't agree more on Lulu, $58 is a steal, especially in this area. However, my understanding is that it will go private again before long once they achieve their membership goals.
Matt being a New Jersey guy, I am kind of surprised he did not mention Knoll West, which tops out at $89 for non-residents on weekends with a cart, which is cheaper than many public options in North Jersey.
Ben-Knoll West has some nice deals after 1:00 and 3:00 if I`m not mistaken and I know you are a big fan.
Tim,
Absolutely. $55 after 3:30 walking and in my experience it is practically deserted at that time. What a bargain...
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I played the Warren Course this morning. It was 35 bucks walking. And GCAer Ken Fry was kind enough to give me a mini tour (Ken was the first pro there).
Warren is a wonderful course at any price. I was alone out there and kept putting after holing out because the greens were so darn fun.
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Kalen:
Here's GD's list of the 10 best deals in golf (all under $55, not sure if the numbers are a ranking or not):
1. Bethpage (Red)
2. CommonGround
3. Coronado
4. Olympic at Gold Mountain
5. Pacific Grove
6. Pinon Hills
7. Saratoga Spa
8. Stonebridge
9. Threetops
10. Wild Horse
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Sven,
Thanks for the list, that looks to be a good one. But for the average Joe, even $55 can be expensive for a weekend round of golf.
I'd like to see the $30 and under list. I've got in a course in mind that'd be tough to beat at that price...Indian Canyon in Spokane, WA at $29 for the peak fee.
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Sven,
Thanks for the list, that looks to be a good one. But for the average Joe, even $55 can be expensive for a weekend round of golf.
I'd like to see the $30 and under list. I've got in a course in mind that'd be tough to beat at that price...Indian Canyon in Spokane, WA at $29 for the peak fee.
Kalen:
Here's the $25 and under thread from several years ago -- Aiken in SC seemed to be a pretty good candidate, along with the course that started the thread. (Maybe 5 years hence means it fits as a $30 and under thread. See reply #16 on the thread below for my rather strict requirements.)
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,31437.0.html
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Sven,
Thanks for the list, that looks to be a good one. But for the average Joe, even $55 can be expensive for a weekend round of golf.
I'd like to see the $30 and under list. I've got in a course in mind that'd be tough to beat at that price...Indian Canyon in Spokane, WA at $29 for the peak fee.
Kalen:
Here's the $25 and under thread from several years ago -- Aiken in SC seemed to be a pretty good candidate, along with the course that started the thread. (Maybe 5 years hence means it fits as a $30 and under thread. See reply #16 on the thread below for my rather strict requirements.)
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,31437.0.html
Thanks Phil,
I've brought it back to the forefront.
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::) :o :D
Hey guys,no kidding , lets have a big shoot out at Twisted this fall. It will be lots of fun. Stay tuned.
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Any love for Hominy Hill, Monmouth County, NJ?
... or Charleston Springs? or Howell Park? Monmouth County is blessed with outstanding municipal golf. :)
Ronald is right, everyone on this board could have their own list and they would all be worth a look. As much as we like to lament certain aspects of the world of golf and its courses, there are plenty of great values to be had.
My two cents...
The Trophy Club (Lebanon, IN) - I've said plenty about this course before, but $59 for 36 holes is hard to beat. Tim Liddy made the most out of this site, using the existing landforms to create interest and variety. I'm about 3 hours away and if a year goes by that I don't play TC I'm a little disappointed.
Gibson Bay (Richmond, KY) - Looking at their website, it seems they've jacked up their rates...all the way to $15 weekdays and $24 weekends (with a ridiculous twilight of $10). I haven't played Gibson Bay in about 10 years, so I'd be interested to hear how they are doing these days. When I was in the area, it would occasionally be a bit crowded and slow. However, more often than not it wasn't an issue.
Keller Golf Course (Maplewood, MN) - When I lived in the area, it was typically in really good shape. You get the feel of a classic golden age course with the dedicated clientele of a beloved muni, a great vibe that I hope remains following Richard Mandel's work and the construction of the new clubhouse.
Gibson Bay is doing OK. The greens are very good, but this summer the rough was basically nonexistent. It burned out very early in this ridiculously hot summer.
I'd offer up Old Silo as an alternative to Gibson for value in Kentucky. Simply awesome for an average rate around $29 on weekdays, basically every hole is different and good, and when they get their stuff straight with the bunkers it will be back up on top of the lists. I'll try to do a photo tour of it one of these days. Graham Marsh's first US design.
I love Twisted Dune, Archie. We used to play there and ACCC in college in the shoulder season when it was too cold in Philadelphia, that 50 miles could mean 10 degrees and enough to play golf!
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Matt Ward responds to various comments:
The purpose of the article was to highlight at 60/40 the quality of a course's design in tandem with the price amount charged (max amounts were
looked at deliberately during high season). That is why a course like Bethpage Black is not listed because the out-of-state rate is now well into the triple digit
amounts.
Tim Pitner is quite correct -- I tried to keep the selections to one specific architect for the grouping. Thus, only one Doak and one Engh course. If my
selection grouping was more -- say 25 plus -- then they would have had more -- places like CommonGround and Lakota Canyon, come quickly to mind.
One other thing -- I also tried to provide some sort of geographic balance given the wishes of my editor. Top tier states with quality public courses and
affordable rates are places like Indiana and Colorado -- less so for places like California, certain spots in the Northeast and places in the desert southwest which
have much higher rates during peak times.
One of the courses I wanted to include but it was just able to squeeze in is The Trophy Club -- just outside of Indy. Top notch Tim Liddy design and it has all the ingredients -- first rate design and very affordable prices. The Hoosier State would have quite a few listed. Colorado is the same way -- save for the courses in the
mountains during peak summer rates.
Some have mentioned Gibson Bay and I concur -- it's a quality layout for the money. But, it would not sniff a consideration for the ones I listed. They are all superior in terms of layout.
Some have mentioned Pinon Hills and it's a quality Ken Dye design -- but in New Mexico Black Mesa is the top dog in that regard.
I did mention World Woods -- for those who think I hate Sunshine State golf (I still do!) -- the status of the facility is well-earned and deserves plenty of plaudits.
A few sleepers come to mind -- Stow Acres in Stow, MA -- the North Course which served as the match play portion for a USGA Pub Links several years ago.
Others include ...
GC at Red Rock (Rapid City area)
Links of ND -- although the first six holes are much weaker than the balance of the rest.
Old Works (Anaconda, MT)
Bayside (NE)
Hawktree (although borderline given it's high cost when weighed against other ND courses)
Rochelle Ranch (turf issues the main concern here) / Rawlins, WY
Desert Canyon (Orondo, WA)
Genoa Lakes / Resort Course (Carson City, NV)
Tallgrass (Shoreham, NY)
Eaglesticks (Zanesville, OH)
*Lulu has been mentioned -- although I would need to think about that -- PA public golf is really dog meat when held against its private side -- the worst in the country when the two categories are merged -- save for the likes of NY State.
I can add more ...
In the final analysis -- the magazines need to spend more time on the places that can do both - quality design and affordable rates. Those are the real
winners -- if you want more people to play then quality layouts with fair pricing should be the main emphasis -- thinking of places like Pebble Beach, Pinehurst #2, Whistling Straits and others of this ilk -- are more fantasty than reality.
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Summer rates here in The Valley of the Sun are excellent. This morning at 7:15am, I played Wigwam Gold for $29 (including a sleeve of Pinnacle Gold balls :) ) The temperature then was in the high 80s and when we finished it was not yet 100. Just keep hydrated and use a wet towel for relief.A wide brimmed hat helps too. Speaking of wet towels, when I played Raven Verrado, the mango scented wet towels that were handed out by the ranger were quite a relief.
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I agree with Matt that all these conversations should be framed in terms of top whack pricing. Its impossible to compare discount prices because they constantly change. Plus, there are often unsociable aspects attached to discounts like getting up at 5am, playing golf through dinner or playing in extreme heat. Its also a good idea to choose courses from various locals. The most important aspect of any bang for buck game is that the course should be of a certain quality. Playing for $10 is no bargain if the course sucks. All that said, I would probably have lowered the pricing threshold to something akin to under $50. I know this means a lot more research would be required because now destination courses are completely out of the picture.
Ciao
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Sean,
While I agree with your premise, anyone who pays "rack rates" in this era of discounts at sites like golfnow.com or email clubs from the courses themselves is only hurting their own wallet.
As far as my postings concerning recent plays at Raven Verrado and Wigwam Gold for $29 in the summer heat, these prices are great for locals like me now but in prime season, they can be had for under $100.
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Tumblebrook GC near Allentown, PA is a 9 hole Ross muni. (Originally designed as a private estate course) I think it cost me 12 bucks to play last time.
Mark
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Spring Valley Country Club- Salem, WI (Langford) $18 all day rate to walk on the weekends. Best course for a dollar a hole, period.
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From a "lurker"
@Sean
Yes, it would be nice to thoroughly research those top tier designs that are $50 and lower -- however -- I think the results would be practically
useless.
The major cities of the USA -- with VERY few exceptions (if any) would not likely reach that threshold. Once you dip below a certain dollar level
the likelihood of a quality design becomes less and less. I do agree with you that discounting -- while nice to include -- doesn't reflect the top tier rate
one would need to play during the high season. That was my point on the thread to begin with. Steve is right mention the AZ experiences but one also has to understand the various conditions tied to accessing those facilities.
Let me also point out that in relative dollar terms -- what is charged at Rustic Canyon is likely a better overall fee than what is charged at Wild Horse
when you compare the surrounding courses near to RC and what is charged.
I don't doubt thet people can list plenty of places with cheap and low fees -- the reality is that the quality of the design usually meets the same level.
You said it best -- if the course ultimatelty sucks -- what is really gained from playing there?
That's why I believe in the equation the design has to be no less than 60% of the emphasis -- the rest is the dollar amont charged.
The magazines simply regurgitate the same info on the highest cost places. People don't have triple digits to spend on golf rounds. The fat cats and those
with the deepest of pockets have little worry on that front. Frankly, the magazines likely have a financial desire to keep taking ads from the big ticket places. If the magaziens started to emphasize value / designs to the max -- likely the resorts and big ticket daily fees would be taken aback by that editorial approach.
Black Mesa charges $87 with cart. But when you size up the quality of the experience -- and factor in the replay rate -- the gain from playing there is off the charts.
Triple digit fees for the elite top tier courses is not a feasible item for 90% of the golfing population. Certainly not resembling anything close to a steady diet.
Without a clear move on the affordable but quality design front -- it's likely more and more people will either cut their number of rounds or worse -- stop playing period.
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Matt Ward selects his 10 choices...Black Mesa, Rustic Canyon, etc
http://www.back9network.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=28400&ATCLID=205497341
This is a very good list though there easily could be 3-4 Colorado courses if Matt wasn't looking for diversity.
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Plumas Lake in Marysville, California.
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Matt Ward selects his 10 choices...Black Mesa, Rustic Canyon, etc
http://www.back9network.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=28400&ATCLID=205497341
This is a very good list though there easily could be 3-4 Colorado courses if Matt wasn't looking for diversity.
Please do tell! I would love to see that list. Thanks
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@Stephen Davis
Here is the list from MW...
I my opinion it's hard to beat the duo of Colorado and Indiana for quality public courses -- I am speaking about quality layouts that are
very affordable for the greatest number of people.
I only picked one architect and tried to please me editor by spreading the choices around much of the USA.
In Colorado I would say the following are top quality layouts with excellent prices.
In no particular order ...
Four Mile Ranch / Canon City
Lakota Canyon / New Castle
Devil's Thumb / Delta
Highland Meadows / Windsor
Common Ground / Aurora
Murphy's Creek / Aurora
Cougar Canyon / Trinidad
Fossil Trace / Golden
Walking Stick / Pueblo
Red Hawk Ridge / Castle Rock
Riverdale (Dunes) / Brighton
On the high side for fees but would still recommend ...
Haymaker / Steamboat Springs
Redlands Mesa / Grand Junction
Ridge at Castle Pines North / Castle Rock
I'm sure Doug can chime in with a few others ... I also like Saddle Rock in Aurora.
Like I said earlier -- Indiana is also top tier place to play with stellar designs and fees quite reasonable.