Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Howard Riefs on August 03, 2012, 10:24:56 AM
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“One course is a curiosity; two courses is a destination,” says Mike Keiser.
Here comes Cabot Cliffs, the 2nd course to accompany Cabot Links.
Details via the below Golfweek article:
-- Architect: Bill Coore walked the area a couple of weeks ago and has started drawing up routing plans.
-- Timing: Land clearing already has begun. Groundbreaking is anticipated sometime in 2013. Expected to be open for play in 2015.
-- Site: Area known as Broad Cove located 2 miles north of Cabot Links. 600-acre tract of land offers more than a mile of coastline – similar to the seaside stretch at CL. Elevation lends to dramatic views of the gulf and the cliffs.
-- Course feature: A par 3 that will "play similar to the iconic 16th at Cypress Point."
http://golfweek.com/news/2012/aug/01/keiser-thinks-big-again-2nd-course-cabot-links/ (http://golfweek.com/news/2012/aug/01/keiser-thinks-big-again-2nd-course-cabot-links/)
A few photos of the site:
http://golfweek.com/photos/galleries/2012/aug/01/cabot-links-second-course/ (http://golfweek.com/photos/galleries/2012/aug/01/cabot-links-second-course/)
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Ran and Ben:
Please don't call the place Cabot Cliffs! The name reminds of the Cliff's communities golf developments in the southeast US.
How about simply Broad Cove?
Or...Inverness Highlands
TS
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working title...I'll sky-write over Mr. Keiser's house the GCA suggestion for New Macdonald.
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working title...I'll sky-write over Mr. Keiser's house the GCA suggestion for New Macdonald.
BOOM!!!
New MacDonald it is.
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New MacDonald had a cliff...e-i-e-i-ay
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New MacDonald had a cliff...e-i-e-i-ay
It's in Canada, so it would be e-i-e-i-eh?
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If it is located at Broad Cove, why not Cabot Cove.
Site looks incredible. Could it be the best property that Coore/Crenshaw have ever been given? I would think only Sand Hills and Lost Farm would be the only competition.
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eh is spelled ay in Canadia/Canuckland.
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Exciting. I'm inclined to wait to visit the destination instead of the curiosity.
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If it is located at Broad Cove, why not Cabot Cove.
Good idea.
(http://www.theantiroom.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/murdershewrote1.jpg)
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Ran and Ben:
Please don't call the place Cabot Cliffs! The name reminds of the Cliff's communities golf developments in the southeast US.
How about simply Broad Cove?
Or...Inverness Highlands
TS
That would be named The Cliffs of Cabot at Inverness
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The Trace of the Cliffs of the Cove at Inverness @ Keiser International.
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How long till the inevitable Cabot vs. Streamsong hole-by hole death match?
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No fair...it's 2 v. 1.
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No fair...it's 2 v. 1.
Actually in this economy it is 1 vs. 0 at this point.
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I meant once all four courses were in the ground the need to rank them would be unbearable for some.
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How long till the inevitable Cabot vs. Streamsong hole-by hole death match?
December 14, the date Streamsong opens.
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I see your point...how about Cabot and Streamsong in Canadian Doubles vs. Bandon?
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If it is located at Broad Cove, why not Cabot Cove.
Site looks incredible. Could it be the best property that Coore/Crenshaw have ever been given? I would think only Sand Hills and Lost Farm would be the only competition.
Little early to start that kind of hype don't you think...off of those six pics?!? ???
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Yeah, Mikey boy, about that... are you saying that your personal ranking of C/C is Sand Hills, followed by Lost Farm? I think that a number of courses found here (http://www.coorecrenshaw.com/portfolio.html) would compete with Cabot Hertz for site worthiness.
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If it is located at Broad Cove, why not Cabot Cove.
Site looks incredible. Could it be the best property that Coore/Crenshaw have ever been given? I would think only Sand Hills and Lost Farm would be the only competition.
Little early to start that kind of hype don't you think...off of those six pics?!? ???
That's nothing. Memory serves, a thread earlier this year crowned the "finest routing of 18 holes in the history of the game" on a course that won't open for another year.
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I'm a big fan of the property where The Pit is currently located, in Aberdeen, N.C. When Pinehurst Jiu eventually opens, it will be on one interesting piece of property.
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A little more from Brad Klein in the current Golfweek:
Cabot Links’ developers of this site that they are well under way with plans for a second course a mile to the north, located on a bluff 110 feet above the gulf for which Bill Coore and Ben Crenshaw are now completing the routing. It will be called Cabot Cliffs and be part a second, affiliated hotel complex, with a likely opening date of mid-2014.
http://golfweek.com/news/2012/sep/11/nova-scotias-cabot-links-add-2nd-course/ (http://golfweek.com/news/2012/sep/11/nova-scotias-cabot-links-add-2nd-course/)
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A little more from Brad Klein in the current Golfweek:
Cabot Links’ developers of this site that they are well under way with plans for a second course a mile to the north, located on a bluff 110 feet above the gulf for which Bill Coore and Ben Crenshaw are now completing the routing. It will be called Cabot Cliffs and be part a second, affiliated hotel complex, with a likely opening date of mid-2014.
http://golfweek.com/news/2012/sep/11/nova-scotias-cabot-links-add-2nd-course/ (http://golfweek.com/news/2012/sep/11/nova-scotias-cabot-links-add-2nd-course/)
That opening date seems pretty optimistic ... I wouldn't say the likely opening date was mid-2014 unless I had already started construction.
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A little more from Brad Klein in the current Golfweek:
Cabot Links’ developers of this site that they are well under way with plans for a second course a mile to the north, located on a bluff 110 feet above the gulf for which Bill Coore and Ben Crenshaw are now completing the routing. It will be called Cabot Cliffs and be part a second, affiliated hotel complex, with a likely opening date of mid-2014.
http://golfweek.com/news/2012/sep/11/nova-scotias-cabot-links-add-2nd-course/ (http://golfweek.com/news/2012/sep/11/nova-scotias-cabot-links-add-2nd-course/)
That opening date seems pretty optimistic ... I wouldn't say the likely opening date was mid-2014 unless I had already started construction.
What is the true workable season? 9 months?
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It's the growing season I was thinking of. Even if the course was fully planted a year from today, opening in "mid-2014" would be pretty amazing. Maybe (like last year) they could open the first nine holes then.
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When you get both these courses up and running and hopefully some improved management at HL, this will certainly be in the running as the go-to spot for east coaster's golf trips.
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For years PEI was the go to spot for a golfing vacation in Eastern Canada, I believe that Cape Breton is already challenging PEI if not surpassing it as a go to destination. With the addition of a Cabot Cliffs, game, set and match!
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Greg, As I understand the climate, it's much more temperate than people might think. Being hard pressed against the St. Lawrence, keeps it a little warmer than most think Canada could be. A couple winters back they did not even get the ground to freeze. But 9 months sounds pretty close, in my mind, especially if you're trying to plan for staff, food and sundries.
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Here is a link to a graph showing the average monthly highs and lows in centigrade.
http://www.worldweatheronline.com/Inverness-weather-averages/Nova-Scotia/CA.aspx
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Cabot Cliffs of Claven?
(http://www.davidstuff.com/humor/cliff.jpg)
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Cabot Cliffs of Claven?
(http://www.davidstuff.com/humor/cliff.jpg)
'Well Woody, little know fact, due to it's proximity to the Gulf of St. Lawrence and the jet stream Cabot is actually 12% warmer than most of Canada and the northern lights act as an insulator for the ground temperatures."
Better TV mail man, Cliff or Newman?
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Better TV mail man, Cliff or Newman?
And for the other gender... Reba The Mail Lady.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iN6YEcub5Kk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iN6YEcub5Kk)
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Better TV mail man, Cliff or Newman?
And for the other gender... Reba The Mail Lady.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iN6YEcub5Kk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iN6YEcub5Kk)
I opened that up, saw Pee Wee and closed it. It looks like Reba, like Pee Wee plays for the other team.
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In case you haven't read it yet, Robert Thompson has an interesting story on the potential of this course.
http://canadiangolfer.com/g4g/2012/09/27/will-cabot-cliffs-exceed-cabot-links/
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This short article from the magazine Golf Course Architecture outline some of what has been done so far and the exciting possibilities for the 18th hole.
http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/Article/Spectacular-site-for-Cabot-Cliffs/2549/Default.aspx
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Article from Golf Digest on Mike Keiser annoncing the "Green Light" has been given to begin construction of the course. There are some good photos along with the article.
http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/blogs/wheres-matty-g/2012/10/mike-keisers-going-forward-wit.html
Also included is a chart with the proposed distances for the 18 holes.
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Article from Golf Digest on Mike Keiser annoncing the "Green Light" has been given to begin construction of the course. There are some good photos along with the article.
http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/blogs/wheres-matty-g/2012/10/mike-keisers-going-forward-wit.html
Also included is a chart with the proposed distances for the 18 holes.
The proposed scorecard is pretty interesting. A lot of things to note:
- There are two sets of back-to-back par 3's (6/7, 15/16).
- Both the front and back 9 start and end with par 5's.
- There is not a single hole that plays between 368 and 416 yards.
- There are 6 par 3's, 5 par 5's and only 7 par 4's.
- There's a 4-hole stretch (8-11) in which the shortest hole is 450 yards.
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:)
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- There is not a single hole that plays between 368 and 416 yards.
I like it already...
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- There is not a single hole that plays between 368 and 416 yards.
The wind might have something to say about that!
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Update via Matt Ginella...
Keiser says they will have seven to 10 holes at Cabot Cliffs built by August, with preview play starting in spring 2014. All 18 holes should be open by 2015.
Coore confirmed that although his design partner, Ben Crenshaw, always said he never wanted to work on courses outside of the U.S., that in this particular case, given the property and the upside of the project, that he will be involved.
http://www.golfchannel.com/news/matt-ginella/news-about-bandon-and-cabot-expansion/ (http://www.golfchannel.com/news/matt-ginella/news-about-bandon-and-cabot-expansion/)
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Update via Matt Ginella...
Keiser says they will have seven to 10 holes at Cabot Cliffs built by August, with preview play starting in spring 2014. All 18 holes should be open by 2015.
Coore confirmed that although his design partner, Ben Crenshaw, always said he never wanted to work on courses outside of the U.S., that in this particular case, given the property and the upside of the project, that he will be involved.
http://www.golfchannel.com/news/matt-ginella/news-about-bandon-and-cabot-expansion/ (http://www.golfchannel.com/news/matt-ginella/news-about-bandon-and-cabot-expansion/)
I think it is a fair consensus from those of us who've walked this property that this could be one of, if not the, most promising sites for golf in this decade. I'm very excited for all those involved and it's great news to see Ben Crenshaw fully involved. Should be fantastic!
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You gotta see this one..
http://instagram.com/p/eXin1QJY9H/
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You gotta see this one..
http://instagram.com/p/eXin1QJY9H/
Green looks slow...
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Lots of work on that green... as you can see in Matt's photos of #16 (last fall and now):
http://instagram.com/p/eVzrPVJY1h/ (http://instagram.com/p/eVzrPVJY1h/)
Also, give a look at this cool time-lapse of #16 that C&C shaper Keith Rhebb shot in June:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/keithrhebb/9081425062/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/keithrhebb/9081425062/)
Keith's Flickr has a good collection of other images from C&C sites, including Cabot Cliffs and Streamsong Red.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/keithrhebb/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/keithrhebb/)
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You gotta see this one..
http://instagram.com/p/eXin1QJY9H/
From my visit in August. Par 5 that ends with the green in your link... hanging over the ocean!
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-I-6KM4XLrd0/UgK0liMGO-I/AAAAAAAAHNs/2Lvfsj5FWu4/w1026-h766-no/IMAGE_2.jpeg)
And, the very next hole will be this par 3!!!
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-aE9_elcmp5A/UgK0t8KyBhI/AAAAAAAAHOI/Lrx9HhLKNrU/w1026-h766-no/IMAGE_5.jpeg)
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Lots of work on that green... as you can see in Matt's photos of #16 (last fall and now):
http://instagram.com/p/eVzrPVJY1h/ (http://instagram.com/p/eVzrPVJY1h/)
Also, give a look at this cool time-lapse of #16 that C&C shaper Keith Rhebb shot in June:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/keithrhebb/9081425062/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/keithrhebb/9081425062/)
Keith's Flickr has a good collection of other images from C&C sites, including Cabot Cliffs and Streamsong Red.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/keithrhebb/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/keithrhebb/)
Bill McBride and I had a beer and good conversation with Keith on the last day of our visit to Cabot. Keith seemed very excited about the prospects for Cabot Cliffs. The target date for the course to fully open is May of 2015. Can't wait to go back!
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- There is not a single hole that plays between 368 and 416 yards.
I like it already...
Had never thought about it but our Ocean Course has no holes from 366 to 430. A trio of 4's at 366 or less and 7 at 430 or more.
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Bill Coore discussed the routing of Cabot Cliffs during his interview today on Morning Drive:
http://www.golfchannel.com/media/sense-direction-coore-course-routing/ (http://www.golfchannel.com/media/sense-direction-coore-course-routing/)
On Thursday, the show will have another segment about the course.
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So it doesn't exactly look like a minimalist project does it? The whole fairway in the photos and video looks to be shaped by machine.
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Ross, we rode and walked the area under construction. That fairway will look very natural when it's grown in. Rod Whitman has a soft touch with the Cat. The routing goes up into and back of the forest twice; that was one of the fairways headed back to the sea and I think some trees were cleared along the way.
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Here's the story on Cabot Cliffs that ran today on Morning Drive:
http://www.golfchannel.com/media/golden-ticket-ginella-nova-scotia-coore-crenshaw-keiser/ (http://www.golfchannel.com/media/golden-ticket-ginella-nova-scotia-coore-crenshaw-keiser/)
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Thanks for posting Howard. That was a really good segment.
Man, for them to be saying it has a chance to be that good is something.
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This is a really well done story...except: 1) The first shot of Highland is of carts on paths?!%$ with maybe one good shot of the course - poor showing where they really could have highlighted its uniqueness and done NS golf better, and 2) How many shots do I have to watch MG hit?!% (I was impressed with the beach shot)
Cheers
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Glenora Inn & Distillery...$7 tours!!!!
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For years PEI was the go to spot for a golfing vacation in Eastern Canada, I believe that Cape Breton is already challenging PEI if not surpassing it as a go to destination. With the addition of a Cabot Cliffs, game, set and match!
Don, I feel PEI will remain a superb golf destination because so many people need carts to play multiple days. However, Cape Breton can also become the fantastic Bandon type of experience. Together, they will make the Maritimes a superb golfing destination.
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For years PEI was the go to spot for a golfing vacation in Eastern Canada, I believe that Cape Breton is already challenging PEI if not surpassing it as a go to destination. With the addition of a Cabot Cliffs, game, set and match!
Don, I feel PEI will remain a superb golf destination because so many people need carts to play multiple days. However, Cape Breton can also become the fantastic Bandon type of experience. Together, they will make the Maritimes a superb golfing destination.
Another advantage PEI would have is the relative ease of getting from course to course but although it may be more difficult getting from place to place in Cape Breton, the scenic beauty in Cape Breton more than makes up for it.
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Any possibility of more great courses, if the first two prove successful?
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Jim: There is additional land, though Coore was told to simply use the best land for the second course.
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Nice interview. Six par threes on one course seems like a colossal let down but if I had his talent I would maybe have a different perspective. Hope to make it up there someday.
This comment is a joke, right? ???
If there are six par 3's then surely they'll be six par 5 as well, as everyone knows a golf course can't be any good if par is less than 72. ::)
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I'll counter, respectfully, what Kelly Blake Moran says above with this: if the par three hole is demanding/challenging enough, thought-provoking, somewhat counter-intuitive, then the ability to select lie and tee ball offers a point of equilibrium for me. I don't disparage his support for broken ground, awkward and accidental lies.
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Nice interview. Six par threes on one course seems like a colossal let down but if I had his talent I would maybe have a different perspective. Hope to make it up there someday.
This comment is a joke, right? ???
If there are six par 3's then surely they'll be six par 5 as well, as everyone knows a golf course can't be any good if par is less than 72. ::)
I like holes involving a tee shot and an approach shot. There is more strategy, more uncertainty, more opportunity for interesting recovery shots, just more interesting elements involved with playing the hole. A tee shot to the green allows you to pick a flat spot and tee your ball, not always the most interesting part of the game. Now if tees were not allowed or if the tee ground were broken like a fairway, or maybe you have the option to tee your ball if you net a par or better on the previous hole, net a worse score and you must take a drop on the tee and play it as it lies, then the par three becomes more interesting. But to effectively have a tee shot to a green every third hole does not interest me as much as say a course with two or three holes requiring a tee shot to a green. I would rather have more approach shots to a green from varied lies, elevations, and the ability to improve my conditions for the approach shot based upon how I performed on the previous shot.
On the flip side, more par 3's often means more cliff-side golf (see: Pacific Dunes 10 & 11 and Cypress Point 15 & 16). Also if the end result is a more seamless routing with the 18 best holes, then I personally care very little about much else. To continue with the PD example, the back 9 there has 4 par 3's, but it might be the best 9 at the resort, in the state of Oregon. To see an abstract fact about the course as a "colossal let down" is like seeing a golf hole without bunkers surrounding fairway and green and saying that it must not be difficult.
I guess I have more of a wait-and-see approach...
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Looks like there's a stretch of 3 par 3's in 4 holes? (4th, 6th, 7th)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-e7CR_myEf94/UqUI2MQiqYI/AAAAAAAADZs/JpzwJXzdbCE/s1600/cliffs.png)
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Looks like there's a stretch of 3 par 3's in 4 holes? (4th, 6th, 7th)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-e7CR_myEf94/UqUI2MQiqYI/AAAAAAAADZs/JpzwJXzdbCE/s1600/cliffs.png)
Jim,
Not in the final routing! :) They fall at 4, 6, 9, 12, 14 and 16.
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Nice interview. Six par threes on one course seems like a colossal let down but if I had his talent I would maybe have a different perspective. Hope to make it up there someday.
This comment is a joke, right? ???
If there are six par 3's then surely they'll be six par 5 as well, as everyone knows a golf course can't be any good if par is less than 72. ::)
Bingo.
Via Matt Ginella, who attended the Coore Crenshaw Cup at Bandon this week...
"Bill Coore was at Bandon this week & told me Cabot Cliffs (Nova Scotia) will have 6 par 3s, 6 par 4s & 6 par 5s."
https://twitter.com/MattGinellaGC/status/466644342082654208 (https://twitter.com/MattGinellaGC/status/466644342082654208)
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Wow!
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I've thought that 5-5-5 would be great as I've always had more fun playing 5's and 3's. Leave it to C&C to go above in beyond. Toppers!
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Don't know if this has been covered, but will the 6,6,6 combination slow pace of play?
I actually think the balance is pretty neat. I know I've never played a championship course with that many 5's and 3's, and that few 4's.
You'd certainly think that the power player would be at huge advantage if the 5's are reachable in two.
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Don't know if this has been covered, but will the 6,6,6 combination slow pace of play?
I actually think the balance is pretty neat. I know I've never played a championship course with that many 5's and 3's, and that few 4's.
You'd certainly think that the power player would be at huge advantage if the 5's are reachable in two.
No worries, Charlie, for the tourneys they will call them par 4s!
As for pace of play, I think that is far more player dependent than designation dependent.
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It is really cool to hear you are all excited about the golf course. so far have loved the expirence of working on it the that for the three days that I have been on site. I hope to provide more in future posts but need to check over a few things first.
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View of the green on the par 3 16th hole from @jeffhutcheson on Twitter:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BsC0JVMCcAAjxIO.jpg)
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Do we know for sure that Cliffs is opening in the summer of 2015?
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Yes, late summer. There were several holes already seeded when I was there last week, and only five or six left to complete.
Do we know for sure that Cliffs is opening in the summer of 2015?
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no delay from the recent hurricane/tropical storm?
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No the tropical storm did no damage to the property. It is looking great. I was over doing some stuff on the side that has been longer established and you could almost play golf on a couple holes.
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C&C associate Keith Rhebb added some new, dramatic photos of Cabot Cliffs on his Flickr account:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/keithrhebb/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/keithrhebb/)
The course is shaping up nicely.
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Wow! Some fantastic photos of what looks to be a very special place.
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My word... those photos are spectacular. What a spot.
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A couple cool photos of the evolution of the 16th hole, via Matt Ginella:
2012, 2013, 2014...
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bxr7yKMIEAAPHca.jpg)
https://twitter.com/MattGinellaGC/status/511998347054702592/photo/1 (https://twitter.com/MattGinellaGC/status/511998347054702592/photo/1)
2013 and 2014
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bxr8MHkIAAAJ2ov.jpg:large)
https://twitter.com/MattGinellaGC/status/511998793085386752/photo/1 (https://twitter.com/MattGinellaGC/status/511998793085386752/photo/1)
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Also really liked this before/after photo of the 6th green from Ginella's twitter:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BxsCYwZIQAA_Yr_.jpg)
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amazing to watch this course come to life like this and just how natural some of these green sites appear to be
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If that last photo doesn't bring a smile to your face, I can't imagine what would.
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Cabot updated its website in anticipation of Cabot Cliffs' grand opening.
https://www.cabotlinks.com/ (https://www.cabotlinks.com/)
Good new video on the home page, along with
course tour: https://www.cabotlinks.com/golf/cabot-cliffs/hole-by-hole-tour/ (https://www.cabotlinks.com/golf/cabot-cliffs/hole-by-hole-tour/)
new photos: https://www.cabotlinks.com/golf/cabot-cliffs/image-gallery/ (https://www.cabotlinks.com/golf/cabot-cliffs/image-gallery/)
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I didn't know they were selling real estate at Cabot?
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New short video on the Cabot experience including new shots of the Cliffs Course.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKhIt9c8USE
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has to be on everybody's wish list ;D
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I am so excited for everyone to see it. I was on site yesterday and the light was just right and 18 looked so good.
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If you pause the video at the 31 or 32 second mark you will see an aerial of Cabot Links. I find it astonishing how much it looks like a links course in the British Isles. I don't think I have seen an aerial of a course outside of Britain and Ireland that looks more authentic.
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If you pause the video at the 31 or 32 second mark you will see an aerial of Cabot Links. I find it astonishing how much it looks like a links course in the British Isles. I don't think I have seen an aerial of a course outside of Britain and Ireland that looks more authentic.
And it plays as an authentic links course as well, beautiful turf.
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If you pause the video at the 31 or 32 second mark you will see an aerial of Cabot Links. I find it astonishing how much it looks like a links course in the British Isles. I don't think I have seen an aerial of a course outside of Britain and Ireland that looks more authentic.
And it plays as an authentic links course as well, beautiful turf.
#2 at Cabot Links... one of the world's truly GREAT par fives!!!
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-GuoIxN7PXFA/UgfH2-16eEI/AAAAAAAAKGM/nlOzU--Y8f0/w727-h543-no/IMAGE_146.jpeg)
We need to go back when Cliffs opens, Bill!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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If you pause the video at the 31 or 32 second mark you will see an aerial of Cabot Links. I find it astonishing how much it looks like a links course in the British Isles. I don't think I have seen an aerial of a course outside of Britain and Ireland that looks more authentic.
And it plays as an authentic links course as well, beautiful turf.
#2 at Cabot Links... one of the world's truly GREAT par fives!!!
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-GuoIxN7PXFA/UgfH2-16eEI/AAAAAAAAKGM/nlOzU--Y8f0/w727-h543-no/IMAGE_146.jpeg)
We need to go back when Cliffs opens, Bill!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Agreed, 2016.
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https://vimeo.com/130875163
A pretty quality Drone Video of a couple of holes on Cliffs. Really worth the 2 min...
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I will be there next week and try to report back afterward.
Of course, if I don't like the course, Ran will probably censor me :) so let's all hope I am able to report back.
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Tom, Will this be your first time in the Inverness area? Don't forget to try some Glen Breton. Failte gu Cheap Bhreatainn
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Cabot Cliffs is open for preview play. What a fun and wonderful day. I played the Cliffs on Monday with a group of guys from the project. It played well for still being under grow in conditions but will get better with time.
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Thinking about heading up in August to escape the heat and tee it up. The Mrs. doesn't play - will she have fun nonetheless?
Never mind - found Brett's thread: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59647.msg1430199/topicseen.html#msg1430199 (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59647.msg1430199/topicseen.html#msg1430199)
Thanks.
Bogey
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Michael,
As a two year summer resident of Inverness. If your wife likes to sit at the beach and read or go out riding bikes or hiking on trails she would enjoy her time out here. Inverness is a very pretty spot in the summer. But the community is still a rural small town in a lot of ways with limited shopping options or other amenities that normally come part and parcel with being a world class tourist destination. But those thing are coming in the next few years.
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Cheers Ben. Fortunately that is right in her wheelhouse.
Mike
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There is also harness racing at night!
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Bob Weeks, recently ex of Score Golf, now of TSN, calls it a masterpiece:
http://www.tsn.ca/cabot-cliffs-is-a-masterpiece-1.324321 (http://www.tsn.ca/cabot-cliffs-is-a-masterpiece-1.324321)
And from the course website, the highlight reel:
https://www.cabotlinks.com/cabots-canada-day-highlight-reel/
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So Crenshaw led thing off at the Cliffs and shot a 73.
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So Crenshaw led thing off at the Cliffs and shot a 73.
How did everyone do at 16? We were fortunate enough to get a look at the hole in August 2013 and it is spectacular! How did the wind affect the tee shot? What did it play, 180 with 160 carry?
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Fortunately the four tees at 16 allow you to take as much risk as you think you can handle. here are your yardage choices;176, 148, 119, 89.
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Matt Ginella on the Golf Channel this morning was raving about Cabot Cliffs. Here is a tweet he issued a couple of days ago.
Matt Ginella @MattGinellaGC · Jul 1
You know what I think of Pebble. Best public in the U.S. But hole-by-hole, match play, Cabot Cliffs wins 12 to 6.
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Matt Ginella on the Golf Channel this morning was raving about Cabot Cliffs. Here is a tweet he issued a couple of days ago.
Matt Ginella @MattGinellaGC · Jul 1
You know what I think of Pebble. Best public in the U.S. But hole-by-hole, match play, Cabot Cliffs wins 12 to 6.
Let me guess: Pebble wins 6 through 10, plus 18. Cabot Cliffs wins the rest.
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Played the course twice in the last couple of days.
Thoughts:
1) It is still construction golf. A lot of bunkers without sand, greens slow and fuzzy.
2) It is really spectacular -- and not just 16, but 2, 5, 6, 9, 10, 15, 16, 17, 18...
3) The holes away from the water -- 3, 4, 7, 11, 12, 13 -- are all exceptional. In fact, 11 is one of the best on the course, along with the great 7th, a par five up a hill.
4) 15 is a fascinating par 5 that is tons of fun to play. Tackle the left side of the fairway and you can go at this 600-yard par five in two. It hit it with two 3-woods.
5) 16 is tough into the wind. We played it from the tips in a good wind and it was a 4-iron or hybrid at 180 yards, playing 205. The tees one up yesterday in a gentle wind were at 160, but it played closer to 170. The green is very large and there's a lot of room.
6) 17 confounds me. Tee shot is difficult, but I think the rough surrounding the fairway will be thinned. From the back into a hard wind we struggled to get a driver or three wood in play in our group. Yesterday, in a lesser wind two of us put drivers on the green. It would take some time to determine where to hit your shot and it is more uphill off the tee than it appears.
7) It is, to my way of thinking, one of the best public courses I've played (alongside the greats in the UK, which I'd include). The discussion group for this would include the best in the world -- Cypress, Pebble, Pacific Dunes, Royal Dornoch. And yes, it is very much in that discussion.
8) I really, really want to play this again in great shape to make some other determinations that I can't draw conclusions about given the slow greens.
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How did everyone do at 16? We were fortunate enough to get a look at the hole in August 2013 and it is spectacular! How did the wind affect the tee shot? What did it play, 180 with 160 carry?
In very calm conditions, I witnessed the first hole in one on #16 this evening, playing in a threesome with Ran and Ben. The three of us actually made 3, 2, and 1 ... not in that order. I made the 3.
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How did everyone do at 16? We were fortunate enough to get a look at the hole in August 2013 and it is spectacular! How did the wind affect the tee shot? What did it play, 180 with 160 carry?
In very calm conditions, I witnessed the first hole in one on #16 this evening, playing in a threesome with Ran and Ben. The three of us actually made 3, 2, and 1 ... not in that order. I made the 3.
Ok, who made the ace? ;D
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How did everyone do at 16? We were fortunate enough to get a look at the hole in August 2013 and it is spectacular! How did the wind affect the tee shot? What did it play, 180 with 160 carry?
In very calm conditions, I witnessed the first hole in one on #16 this evening, playing in a threesome with Ran and Ben. The three of us actually made 3, 2, and 1 ... not in that order. I made the 3.
TD, that is epic.
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How does the Cliffs compare to the Links? I'm assuming the Cliffs is more epic, while the Links is more intimate?
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Don't know if this has been covered, but will the 6,6,6 combination slow pace of play?
I actually think the balance is pretty neat. I know I've never played a championship course with that many 5's and 3's, and that few 4's.
You'd certainly think that the power player would be at huge advantage if the 5's are reachable in two.
Charlie,
Pace of play, I guess would be fine. Never had a slow round at The Berkshire.
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So #16 plays as a par 2…
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So #16 plays as a par 2…
Ben and Ran tease each other a lot on the course, and Ben said when we got to the tee that a hole in one to the left hand pin really shouldn't count, because you can bounce the ball down in there from the left, which he then proceeded to do. Ran's did go straight at it. When we got up and only saw two balls on the green I figured Ben had gone through the green on the right; neither Ran or I believed Ben at first when he said it was in the hole.
Going back out this afternoon to see if lightning can strike twice in the same place.
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Tom - is feedback allowed, or would you end up being censored? Is Cabot Cliffs in the running for US edition #2 Gourmet Choice?
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Tom - is feedback allowed, or would you end up being censored? Is Cabot Cliffs in the running for US edition #2 Gourmet Choice?
Harold:
Why don't you use your real name?
Cabot Links and Cabot Cliffs will be included in Volume 3 of The Confidential Guide. [Volume 2 is for winter destinations in the Americas, which Cabot is not.]
Will one or the other be in the running for the Gourmet's Choice? Probably so. However, note that I will choose no more than one course for any architect for the Gourmet's Choice of each volume, and Coore & Crenshaw have three other strong candidates for their place in Volume 3 [Sand Hills, Friars Head, Bandon Trails]. So it's certainly not a slam dunk entry, any more than my own entry will be [Pacific Dunes, Ballyneal, Rock Creek, Dismal River, etc.]. There's a lot of depth there.
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Which is why Cabot Links is a slam dunk gourmet choice for Rod Whitman...you would think.
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Which is why Cabot Links is a slam dunk gourmet choice for Rod Whitman...you would think.
Matt:
I liked Cabot Links a lot, and I've known Rod for a very long time.
But there are no slam dunks in Volume 3. It's the deepest region of the world for golf courses ... all of the northeast, the mid Atlantic, the Great Lakes, the sand hills, the Pacific Northwest, and Canada. It's going to be the hardest one from which to choose 18 courses. Ran has asked for his three already, and there is one surprise choice -- a course I have not visited and know very little about.
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Tom, I don't know if you felt this way, but I felt like Cabot Links was refreshingly not flashy. I think it is a courageous course in that sense. I think most designers (maybe even yourself) would have tried to put more flash and pizazz into the look of the course. From photos it appears Cabot Cliffs is more flashy. I am not saying Cabot Links it is better or worse for that reason, but I do think it is courageous and I applaud him for it.
I will always cherish trying to figure out how to get my putt anywhere near the pin when I was short right on what is now the Par 5 8th (old 13, I think), when the pin was front left. The dips and swales you have to negotiate on that putt are quite something.
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Tom, I don't know if you felt this way, but I felt like Cabot Links was refreshingly not flashy. I think it is a courageous course in that sense. I think most designers (maybe even yourself) would have tried to put more flash and pizazz into the look of the course. From photos it appears Cabot Cliffs is more flashy. I am not saying Cabot Links it is better or worse for that reason, but I do think it is courageous and I applaud him for it.
Very interesting, Matt. Rod and I spent a lot of time on this aesthetic question in the early planning and early construction stages at Cabot Links; especially with regard to making the bunkers "Scottish", as Rod likes to say.
We had just come from Sagebrush, where there are big rugged bunkers everywhere and felt like the Cabot Links site really suggested a "less flashy" course in a very traditional Scottish way.
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Jeff,
That was exactly how I interpreted it.
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Tom, I don't know if you felt this way, but I felt like Cabot Links was refreshingly not flashy. I think it is a courageous course in that sense. I think most designers (maybe even yourself) would have tried to put more flash and pizazz into the look of the course. From photos it appears Cabot Cliffs is more flashy. I am not saying Cabot Links it is better or worse for that reason, but I do think it is courageous and I applaud him for it.
Matt:
I'm not sure "courageous" is the right word, but it was nice to see a course where the shaping didn't attempt to "wow" me. It's not better or worse, it's just different ... but different is what stands out.
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Tom, I don't know if you felt this way, but I felt like Cabot Links was refreshingly not flashy. I think it is a courageous course in that sense. I think most designers (maybe even yourself) would have tried to put more flash and pizazz into the look of the course. From photos it appears Cabot Cliffs is more flashy. I am not saying Cabot Links it is better or worse for that reason, but I do think it is courageous and I applaud him for it.
I will always cherish trying to figure out how to get my putt anywhere near the pin when I was short right on what is now the Par 5 8th (old 13, I think), when the pin was front left. The dips and swales you have to negotiate on that putt are quite something.
Matt, are you saying there's been a change in the routing at Cabot Links? I haven't been there since 2013; could it have been changed since then?
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Matt, are you saying there's been a change in the routing at Cabot Links? I haven't been there since 2013; could it have been changed since then?
Yes, they changed the numbering this spring. The course now starts on what used to be #6. If you're familiar with the old routing, you would now play 6-13, 5, 1-4, and 14-18.
I'm not sure of all the factors that went into the change, but a big one was that the original starting sequence were some of the hardest holes on the course, as well as the most dramatic.
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Matt, are you saying there's been a change in the routing at Cabot Links? I haven't been there since 2013; could it have been changed since then?
Yes, they changed the numbering this spring. The course now starts on what used to be #6. If you're familiar with the old routing, you would now play 6-13, 5, 1-4, and 14-18.
I'm not sure of all the factors that went into the change, but a big one was that the original starting sequence were some of the hardest holes on the course, as well as the most dramatic.
That also creates a two loop layout with old #5 as new #9. Old #2 was a really tough par 5 that early in the round, so I can see the benefit of that change as well. It would have been nice to have played the hole after more of a warm up. The solid finish is maintained, a good thing.
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I was there last month. I loved the symbolism of the old opener, straight out to sea and directly at the island, but I agree that the new sequence is better for the same reasons above.
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I don't know if this was a factor or not, but maybe they changed the routing to avoid starting with a blind tee shot. Not only that, but with the new configuration you get some seaside holes on the front 9 as well. With the old routing you didn't get to the water until the 11th hole (the cape). You saw all that water and it felt painfully long before you got to play next to it! Now the water holes are 6, 8, 14,15,16.Maybe a little more balanced in that regard.
However, I will say it was a thrill attempting (in all honesty I wasn't really attempting, it just kind of happened) to drive the green on the first hole. I played from the back tees (380 yards) with a tail wind. I was able to get my drive pin high on the bank of the pot bunker at the front right of the green. I think that was my favourite start ever to a round.
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"Cabot Cliffs debuts among North America's best."
http://www.golfadvisor.com/articles/cabot-cliffs-opening-day-cape-breton-15301.htm (http://www.golfadvisor.com/articles/cabot-cliffs-opening-day-cape-breton-15301.htm)
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I just finished my third (and final for now) round at CC, along with three each morning at CL. The course is still very much a work in progress with many unfinished bunkers and very hairy and slow greens.
CC is a fantastic course with a closing stretch from 15-18 that is hard to top.
But there are several other great holes as well. The seventh is extremely memorable with a forced carry over a chasm to a great fairway that has a hog's back running down much of its centre.
The second is also a great hole with an upside down V shaped green with severe slope - I don't know how it will play with faster greens.
The fifth is a shortish par four that looks way longer. The sixth is a very cool Dell type of par 3 hole that should be called either The Sand Pit or Ants.
On 17 I drove into one of the left green side bunkers one day. Today I hit a little too far left to catch the slope so my ball was about 75 yards from the green. I putted down the severe downslope and just missed going into the same bunker.
The views on the course are spectacular and the current setup around the 18th green is great where there are chairs and tables set up for you to enjoy a drink after your round.
The course is a tougher walk than CL, especially the front nine, and 36 a day at CL and CC certainly does wear you out.
I can't wait to come back again and play the course when it is in a more finished state - but already it is a great joy.
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A great interview with Bill and Ben about their creation now finished.
https://www.cabotlinks.com/qa-with-bill-coore-and-ben-crenshaw/
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An excellent article from today's Globe and Mail on Cabot Cliffs, well worth the read.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/travel/destinations/golfers-youve-never-seen-holes-like-this/article25551029/?service=mobilehttp://
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Playing there this Thursday and Friday. Has anyone played within the last couple of days? Condition?
Thanks,
Pete Garvey
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Cabot is the only course outside of the USA where I have expressed interest in going. You bastards that are whining about how difficult the walk on the Cliffs is better be right because it is costing me a trip.
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Cabot is the only course outside of the USA where I have expressed interest in going. You bastards that are whining about how difficult the walk on the Cliffs is better be right because it is costing me a trip.
So the plan is working...
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Wish I could've caddied the Ran, Tom, and Ben group. Hopefully someone will share some more stories from the day.
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Playing there this Thursday and Friday. Has anyone played within the last couple of days? Condition?
Thanks,
Pete Garvey
condition?? young
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Playing there this Thursday and Friday. Has anyone played within the last couple of days? Condition?
I played July 9, 10 and 11 and each day there was progress. Some of the greens were much faster on my last day and there were more bunkers with sand. The weather has been excellent in the last couple of weeks so there should be no issues there - much of the hydro-seeding that had just occurred when I was there should be starting to take hold.
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Playing there this Thursday and Friday. Has anyone played within the last couple of days? Condition?
Thanks,
Pete Garvey
Fairways are in excellent shape. Probably not as fast as they will be, but still plenty of roll. Greens are grassed nicely and running about 6, so very slow. It is hard to feel the contours at that speed, you just need to use your imagination as to how they will work in the future. Some bunkers have not been finished with sand so are bare clay. You just pull the ball out of those and continue on. The ones that have sand are fine.
Lots of elevation change, but not a terribly hard walk. Almost all the green to tee transitions are short and the routing is excellent.
Conditions aside, this is a fabulous course. I was very impressed by what I saw last week and can't wait to see it mature.
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Playing there this Thursday and Friday. Has anyone played within the last couple of days? Condition?
Thanks,
Pete Garvey
Fairways are in excellent shape. Probably not as fast as they will be, but still plenty of roll. Greens are grassed nicely and running about 6, so very slow. It is hard to feel the contours at that speed, you just need to use your imagination as to how they will work in the future. Some bunkers have not been finished with sand so are bare clay. You just pull the ball out of those and continue on. The ones that have sand are fine.
Lots of elevation change, but not a terribly hard walk. Almost all the green to tee transitions are short and the routing is excellent.
Conditions aside, this is a fabulous course. I was very impressed by what I saw last week and can't wait to see it mature.
Assuming that you played both courses at Cabot, how would you compare and contrast them?
Did you make it up to Highland Links? There's a rare treat!
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CL is a links course, while CC is not although they both are pretty much all fescue. CC has more dramatic holes, like the finishing stretch from 15-18, and has more forced carries that would be difficult for high handicappers, like 2 and 7. They both have some of the quirkiness that you get more in UK courses, like mounds directly in front of greens, such as 3(formerly eight) at CL and 13 at CC.
CC has much more elevation changes and is a harder walk than CL, especially the front nine. CL is more subtle than CC in some ways but I would say that they are both excellent courses and well worth the effort to visit. CL feels more like a Scottish course in that you start and finish in the town and can use features like church steeples as aiming points. CC is much more out in the wilderness.
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More difficult walk talk. How does the walk compare to Bandon Trails or the Streamsong courses? How can a course with six par threes be both a difficult walk and a great routing?
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I haven't been to Bandon or Streamsong so I can't comment relative to those two course. By harder to walk I meant that CC is harder than CL as CL is relatively flat. After playing both courses each day (with a caddy for all rounds) and walking 14.5 miles over 36 holes I was rather tired but not dead - I am 50 and in average shape at best. I wouldn't say CC is an extremely hard walk, but there is some up and down on the front nine, particularly the walk from the 7th tee to fairway.
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Wayne, what top 100 course would you compare the difficulty of the walk to? As an example, to say a couse is more difficult to walk than Pinehurst #2 doesn't mean the course is a difficult walk. It's simply unneeded negativity.
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Sorry about the negative waves man - this is starting to sound like Kelly's Heroes. But nowhere did I say Cabot Cliffs was a tough walk - it is just harder relative to CL.
I would say that the course is a bit easier of a walk than Highlands Links - a similar amount of elevation change but no long walk like you have from 12 to 13 on that course. But I would say it is a tougher walk than courses like TOC, Dornoch, PB, Spyglass, Shinny, Merion, and Friar's Head to name a few more top 100 courses as CL is a bit more spread out than most of these courses and has more elevation changes. The toughest section is probably the walk to the 7th fairway as this is a fairly steep sandy path.
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Today John Paul Newport's story in the Wall Street Journal on Cabot Cliffs was posted:
http://www.wsj.com/articles/golfs-new-scenic-outpost-nova-scotia-1437767411
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Apparently GCA'er Lloyd Cole is doing a concert in Cape Breton and stopping by to check out Cabot cliffs.
http://www.capebretonpost.com/Living/2015-07-28/article-4228629/British-singer,-writer-here-to-perform,-golf/1
Here's (http://thechronicleherald.ca/artslife/1300799-now-hear-this-lloyd-cole-comes-to-the-fore) a story from the Halifax paper on Lloyd's travels to Nova Scotia and it contains a good quote from Lloyd about golf:
“That’s kind of the point of golf,” he muses. “And it’s not just music. Sometimes, I quite forget I have a wife and children. Basically, you’re just trying to get the ball in the hole, and that’s it.
“Everybody needs something like that, even musicians. So it comes down to doing heroin or playing golf.”
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A nice video on the Cliffs from Score Golf and Bob Weeks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=288&v=UWpmQKlL_OM
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Wish I could've caddied the Ran, Tom, and Ben group. Hopefully someone will share some more stories from the day.
I wish you had caddied for me that day, too. On the first hole my caddie scrambled up a small slope to look for my tee shot, slipped, and snapped the shaft of my driver as he braced himself. :) He was mortified. Ran and I kidded him about it the rest of the day, and I just managed to beat Ran in the end, borrowing his driver the rest of the way.
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Just got back from a long weekend at Cabot. What an unbelievable place. Both courses are phenomenal. We played 36 at Links/Cliffs on Sunday in cool, very windy conditions and then 18 at the Links on Monday morning in warmer, calm conditions. I found both courses easy to walk--Links is easier to walk, but Cliffs is very manageable too. My dad who hardly ever walks, walked 36 on Links/Cliffs on Sunday pulling a trolley without a problem.