Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Sean_A on August 01, 2012, 06:48:51 PM
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Can folks enlighten me about the positives & negatives from playing and maintenance perspectives?
Ciao
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It thrives in the heat and humidity, and it seems more ball mark resistant than other grasses. My club converted last year, we love it.
Bet it ain't cheap, that is probably a big negative.
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Is tree clearing around the greens necessary to improve the bermuda's chance of success or will heat and humidity do the job?
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From what I have heard, Champion gets very thatchy pretty soon and gets expensive to maintain in several years versus Tifdwarf or Tifeagle.
What my place needs is nematode-resistant putting green turf. We've had a bad problem this spring and summer.
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Sean,
Champion is a wonderful grass. We have lots of courses in SC with Champion. I like the surface very much... it is firm and can be made as fast as one can stand. It is not expensive and a green can be converted in about eight weeks with a No-Till Renovation process. Here is a link with more detail: http://www.championturffarms.com/html_Champion/champion.html
I have no idea about the maintainence issues related to the grass, but from a user's perspective it is good stuff.
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The Reserve at Pawley's went to it. It is awesome. The greens putt true, are fast, and
they stay firm.
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I agree it's fantastic. Cannot toleralte extreme cold and must be covered when temps fall below freezing for an extended time.
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Bet it ain't cheap, that is probably a big negative.
Actually, that's not true, especially if you're converting from a high maintenance turf like bentgrass. The upfront cost of conversion isn't cheap, but the savings you gain from running fans on your greens, fungicide apps, and wilt watching labor gives you a very fast return on investment.
I worked at a course with 36 holes; 18 had champion and 18 had bent. Our director of grounds was trying to convince membership to convert the other 18 to champion and estimated the cost would've been recouped in 2 years.
On top of that, you don't risk losing the champion greens during a drought like you would bentgrass. Then you're really up shits creek. To me it's a no-brainer.
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We used it to renovate the putting surfaces at Yeamans Hall and at Mid Ocean. Neither of those clubs runs a huge maintenance budget; their superintendents keep it leaner than what the salesmen tell you to do, and it doesn't get so thatchy that way. I'm a big fan of it, although we used MiniVerde instead at Streamsong, because they'd had such great results with it at another course close by.
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I've used it on two renovations this summer and used Mini Verde on another. I think those two are top ones in my area. We are openiong on next week just 7.5 weeks after it was planted. IMHO the two grasses are similar ot a Camry vs. Maxima...both are good...
BTW SettinDown Creek in ATL decided yesterday to go with Champions immediately and open back up on 9/30/12...that's 8 weeks... ;)
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I like Champion the best of the bermuda strains. Most courses here in Texas that have recently redone their greens seem to favor Mini Verde. That appears to be a good option too, but IMO Champion provides a better playing surface. Others would be much more qualified than I to speak to the maintenance issues of the two.
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I played on Champion for the first time with Whitty at Bulls Bay last autumn and thought it was a terrific surface. Firm and true.
Specifying grasses for a course in Morocco just now and our agronomic advisor has recommended 'Celebration' Bermuda, because of its slightly better salt and cool temperature tolerance. Anybody here got experience of it they'd care to share?
Thanks
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I have seen them all. Meaning Champion, Eagle, and Mini Verde. It is all the same, the only difference is the person taking care of it!
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For what it's worth, when a course has either of those (Champion or Mini Verde) as a player it implies to me a good chance that the greens will be nice to play on. Living in South Carolina those grasses seem to be one recent innovation that's a genuine Good Thing.
I'm second to no one in loving cool-climate grasses for golf but in this part of the world the words "Bentgrass greens" are associated in my mind with a high probability of soft and/or pockmarked and/or sickly greens. Playing mostly in the heat-humidity belt the newer stuff like Champion, Mini-Verde or Paspalum is a godsend.
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I played on Champion for the first time with Whitty at Bulls Bay last autumn and thought it was a terrific surface. Firm and true.
Specifying grasses for a course in Morocco just now and our agronomic advisor has recommended 'Celebration' Bermuda, because of its slightly better salt and cool temperature tolerance. Anybody here got experience of it they'd care to share?
Thanks
Robin,
Have you seen TifGrand? Check it out..The Celebration is good but seems a little "stalky". And I don't think the divot is not a good divot form what I seen but it does spread quickly. I lke the Grand much more....
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We're doing the No till method of the celebration right now. A major part of the push behind Celebration is that it can be sprigged over existing turf and out compete it. 419 cant, paspalum cant, tifgrand cannot because they are not the top of the food chain when it comes to being aggressive. Celebration will outcompete Commom, even.
While I agree with Mike in the fact that it can/will get a little, :leggy" some sand, a few good scalps and verticutting and you'll be fine. It's really boils down to cost. Celebration No till is about $2000/acre. It cant be touched. And tifgrand is awesome-lime green, dense but isnt a grass you'd want to use for roughs. Also can get very puffy-needs a lot of sand and aerfying/verticutting. The Floridian did there renovation with Tifgrand, wall to wall.
And Nick Cauley is spot on. There are so many similaries between the 3 main putting surfaces, its matters who is maintaining them. Nick-DO you still have the same cell number?
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Mike/Tony
Many thanks. It is good to have an educated opinion to consider. I've not seen TifGrand in action. My warm season grass knowledge is a little thin to be honest, as i'm generally working in cooler climes. Paspalum I know, but Bermuda's all look the same to me. We need a bermuda than can do both fairway and roughs, which favours the Celebration, as Tony mentions. Cost will be an issue, but water quality more so. We might be too salty ultimately, in which case it'll be back to the paspalum.
Sean, why did you ask your original question? And sorry for a slight case of threadjacking...
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Champion is terrific. We converted our greens two summers ago here in ATL and it has worked very well. We do cover in winter when temps get below 30 degrees or so. You'll have the extra expense of tarps and labor needed to spread them in the eveing and roll them up in the morning.
As Mike Young notes above, the biggest surprise has been the TifGrand that we installed in the green surrounds. It is heat and wear resistant. It tolerates shade much better than 419 (We have used it to sod shaded areas in the rough and it has thrived). The extra bonus is that you can cut almost to green heights, which makes for interesting putt or chip choices in our surrounds. A real leap forward, I think, over TifEagle and older Bermuda hybirds.
Bob
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As Mike Young notes above, the biggest surprise has been the TifGrand that we installed in the green surrounds. It is heat and wear resistant. It tolerates shade much better than 419 (We have used it to sod shaded areas in the rough and it has thrived). The extra bonus is that you can cut almost to green heights, which makes for interesting putt or chip choices in our surrounds. A real leap forward, I think, over TifEagle and older Bermuda hybirds.
Bob
How does TifGrand do in the cold? Do you tarp your surrounds when you tarp the greens?
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Champion is terrific. We converted our greens two summers ago here in ATL and it has worked very well. We do cover in winter when temps get below 30 degrees or so. You'll have the extra expense of tarps and labor needed to spread them in the eveing and roll them up in the morning.
As Mike Young notes above, the biggest surprise has been the TifGrand that we installed in the green surrounds. It is heat and wear resistant. It tolerates shade much better than 419 (We have used it to sod shaded areas in the rough and it has thrived). The extra bonus is that you can cut almost to green heights, which makes for interesting putt or chip choices in our surrounds. A real leap forward, I think, over TifEagle and older Bermuda hybirds.
Bob
Tifgrand is a GREAT fairway, tee, approach, collar turf mowed at .25-.50" Celebration doesnt really look good or grow much above 1.25", so if you're looking for great definition, it may not be the rough grass you're looking for. Tifgrand is REALLY a greens quality turf, though I know they are looking at how low they can go with it at The Floridian. Tifeagle can be mowed as low as you want. We've mowed below .065" just to see how low we could cut before scalping. We never scalped. Here is a photo taken yesterday of our Celebration fairways. They are 4 weeks old and Celebration does actually have a "blueish" color to it. It will be a great contrast.
(http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i277/AJN324/016-2.jpg)
(http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i277/AJN324/015-3.jpg)
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I agree it's fantastic. Cannot toleralte extreme cold and must be covered when temps fall below freezing for an extended time.
In the winter-left dormant or painted/overseeded?
In our area it is the genearl concensus that players for the "north" prefer green if they come down in the older monthd
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We're doing the No till method of the celebration right now. A major part of the push behind Celebration is that it can be sprigged over existing turf and out compete it. 419 cant, paspalum cant, tifgrand cannot because they are not the top of the food chain when it comes to being aggressive. Celebration will outcompete Commom, even.
While I agree with Mike in the fact that it can/will get a little, :leggy" some sand, a few good scalps and verticutting and you'll be fine. It's really boils down to cost. Celebration No till is about $2000/acre. It cant be touched. And tifgrand is awesome-lime green, dense but isnt a grass you'd want to use for roughs. Also can get very puffy-needs a lot of sand and aerfying/verticutting. The Floridian did there renovation with Tifgrand, wall to wall.
And Nick Cauley is spot on. There are so many similaries between the 3 main putting surfaces, its matters who is maintaining them. Nick-DO you still have the same cell number?
I think I would listen to you over me when it comes to grasss ;D ;D ;D
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I agree it's fantastic. Cannot toleralte extreme cold and must be covered when temps fall below freezing for an extended time.
In the winter-left dormant or painted/overseeded?
In our area it is the genearl concensus that players for the "north" prefer green if they come down in the older monthd
We paint our Champion greens in the winter. Most members didn't realize they had been painted until we told them. How does the expression go? We worried that after such knowedge, what forgiveness? Turns our the painted greens were well recieved.
To our surprise we discovered that the paint actually absorbs a bit more sunlight over the winter than they would have if left unpainted. Which means that our greens emerged for dormancy a bit earlier. That's usually a good thing, though you worry about late spring cold snaps.
Bob
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As Mike Young notes above, the biggest surprise has been the TifGrand that we installed in the green surrounds. It is heat and wear resistant. It tolerates shade much better than 419 (We have used it to sod shaded areas in the rough and it has thrived). The extra bonus is that you can cut almost to green heights, which makes for interesting putt or chip choices in our surrounds. A real leap forward, I think, over TifEagle and older Bermuda hybirds.
Bob
How does TifGrand do in the cold? Do you tarp your surrounds when you tarp the greens?
JME - We don't tarp the TifGrand. We treat it like we do our 419. We let both grow a little higher late in the Fall before they go dormant. Which I think is SOP in this area. No problem with the cold.
Bob
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Bob,thanks.
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We used it to renovate the putting surfaces at Yeamans Hall and at Mid Ocean. Neither of those clubs runs a huge maintenance budget; their superintendents keep it leaner than what the salesmen tell you to do, and it doesn't get so thatchy that way. I'm a big fan of it, although we used MiniVerde instead at Streamsong, because they'd had such great results with it at another course close by.
It's funny you keep saying it is Champion at Mid Ocean. After talking to Norman when I was working in Bermuda and again looking at their website they say it is TifEagle.
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Joey:
My mistake I guess. I thought that Patrick O'Brien, the USGA agronomist, recommended Champion to them, but he does do a lot of business in Tifton. You would never be able to tell them apart from looking at the sprigs, I can tell you that much.
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Joey:
My mistake I guess. I thought that Patrick O'Brien, the USGA agronomist, recommended Champion to them, but he does do a lot of business in Tifton. You would never be able to tell them apart from looking at the sprigs, I can tell you that much.
They decided to go with TifEagle at Port Royal as a result of the success at Mid Ocean. I was surprised it was Bermuda after playing Mid Ocean the first time as they rolled so true and were receptive and had good pace to them. It was one of my first times playing on the newer dwarf bermudas.
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Thats interesting that they (tifeagle vs champion) don't look different as sprigs. I've played a lot of each in SC and find the tifeagle to be much grainier. Literally into the grain the tifeagle will take on an evergreen dark color and down grain a slate green color. Really hard to putt I think. The champion has always been more consistent and less grainy from my experience. In fact, I'd put miniverde up there with champion but just behind and tifeagle far behind.
Is my "bad" tifeagle experience possibly from poorer maintenance vs what I have seen on champion or miniverde? For instance, at Palmetto which has very healthy miniverde a weekly verticut has kept the surfaces great and the grain down. Not sure if that is what they do at Yeamans which has excellent champion bermuda surfaces?
Last I've seen courses in SC adding just a bit of Poa Trivialis (sp?) overseed in the winter vs painting which is really nice. Seems to die off quicikly in the spring.
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If I'm grassing with an ultradwarf, I'm using Champion. I do think there is a difference. The 'thatch" issue that Champion gets tagged with is partly due to negative marketing by Mini verde and Tif eagle suppliers, and also a result of following industry guidelines that would have you putting down so much fert that any turf would thatch up.
Besides the excellent density and ball roll you get with champion, the fact that it performs better on a push up type green vs. a USGA spec is another plus. The guys who developed Champion will tell you this and give you examples; the labs, architects (most of them), consultants, fert and chemical companies, sand suppliers, will tell you USGA is the way to go as money makes the golf world go around.
One feature interview I'd like to see someday would be with the Mike and Morris Brown, the father/son team that developed and own Champion. An eye opening snippet would be something along the lines of their grass performs best at low budget courses with non university trained turf managers. Places where they don't have the money to over do the maintenance/green’s construction and the care takers don't think they know more about the grass then the guys who have been working with it for 20 years and have planted thousands of greens all over the world.
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Thats interesting that they (tifeagle vs champion) don't look different as sprigs. I've played a lot of each in SC and find the tifeagle to be much grainier. Literally into the grain the tifeagle will take on an evergreen dark color and down grain a slate green color. Really hard to putt I think. The champion has always been more consistent and less grainy from my experience. In fact, I'd put miniverde up there with champion but just behind and tifeagle far behind.
Is my "bad" tifeagle experience possibly from poorer maintenance vs what I have seen on champion or miniverde? For instance, at Palmetto which has very healthy miniverde a weekly verticut has kept the surfaces great and the grain down. Not sure if that is what they do at Yeamans which has excellent champion bermuda surfaces?
Last I've seen courses in SC adding just a bit of Poa Trivialis (sp?) overseed in the winter vs painting which is really nice. Seems to die off quicikly in the spring.
John, Sounds like a maintenance issue as you will get the color differences regardless of height of cut but can certainly take the grain out for the most part. In season our tifeagle greens don't get that brutally slow uphill yet racy downhill effect indicative of grainy greens.
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I'll take tifeagle. We have 11 acres of tifeagle-tees, approaches and greens. It's the ultradwaft that has been around the longest with the least amount of negative stories, other than maybe thatch. (That's just poor management) Lots of stories of "No Till" Champion beginning to fail and segregate. Too many contamination stories with Mini Verde to make me comfortable. Local high end course is taking their 2 year old Mini out this summer because of contamination. TPC had some serious issues with contamination.
Champion tends to be the slowest grower of the bunch, so if you’re too aggressive or get thin on top, it can take a long time to recover. Just keep the N low (3-3.5#/year) and the topdressing high.
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Tony,
So no till champion segregates, but planted in a traditional method, it doesn't? Does that make sense to you? The anti-champion crowd loves to spread the segregation stories, but I’d love to see some real documentation. Usually the segregation is more about contamination, and not getting a good kill on the old grass prior to planting.
And while contamination is a real problem with any of these grasses, its important for people to understand that is not a grass problem, it’s a supplier problem. Some farms keep their fields clean, and some don't. Suppliers that want clean grass will kill off an entire field if they get any sign of contamination, others worry more about the bottom line and spot treat, but once its there, it’s hard to get rid of. Clean Mini Verde is an excellent putting surface as is Champion and Tif Eagle. Most of the negative "stories" that get spread around have a lot more to do with human error then bad grass.
And you're right, Champion is the slowest of the three. I like that, other supers that like aggressive grasses probably prefer one of the other varieties.
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Tony,
So no till champion segregates, but planted in a traditional method, it doesn't? Does that make sense to you? The anti-champion crowd loves to spread the segregation stories, but I’d love to see some real documentation. Usually the segregation is more about contamination, and not getting a good kill on the old grass prior to planting.
And while contamination is a real problem with any of these grasses, its important for people to understand that is not a grass problem, it’s a supplier problem. Some farms keep their fields clean, and some don't. Suppliers that want clean grass will kill off an entire field if they get any sign of contamination, others worry more about the bottom line and spot treat, but once its there, it’s hard to get rid of. Clean Mini Verde is an excellent putting surface as is Champion and Tif Eagle. Most of the negative "stories" that get spread around have a lot more to do with human error then bad grass.
And you're right, Champion is the slowest of the three. I like that, other supers that like aggressive grasses probably prefer one of the other varieties.
Only real negative I have heard on Champion is it can struggle when in close proximity to the ocean.
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Don,
If you do interview Morris for this or anything, please ask him to define how much a bushel is, LOL. US, Texas, Georgia bushels and the good old fashioned supplier bushel. Frankly, most folks plant until the ground is covered and don't know wht the rate is or actually should be, depending on the unit of measurement.
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One feature interview I'd like to see someday would be with the Mike and Morris Brown, the father/son team that developed and own Champion. An eye opening snippet would be something along the lines of their grass performs best at low budget courses with non university trained turf managers. Places where they don't have the money to over do the maintenance/green’s construction and the care takers don't think they know more about the grass then the guys who have been working with it for 20 years and have planted thousands of greens all over the world.
It's interesting you say that, Don, because the courses in SC that have the BEST Champion greens I've seen are the "country" courses that don't have a high profile super or much money to spend. Not sure why that is, but there is a course in Powdersville, SC (Southern Oaks GC) that has consistently fabulous greens throughout the year. They were the reason a good number of the courses in our area switched to Champion... Furman University GC, for example. While all the Champion courses have good greens, no one has been able to match the success they've had at Southern Oaks, who's super operates on a very small budget.