Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Sam Morrow on July 13, 2012, 12:40:51 AM
-
Posting in the Top 25 courses you have played thread got me to thinking about college football and how it's right around the corner. It also got me thinking about how each week ESPN does a Bottom 10 ranking and it got me to thinking what the 10 worst courses I've ever played were. I think it should also be explained why it makes your bottom 10. So here is mine.
1. Heron Lakes, Houston. I worked at this course for 2 years and am the course record holder, that right there is reason that it sucks. It's a par 69 measuring a whopping 5,500 yards, it's built in a business/residential development next to the Sam Houston Tollway. You would come into work on a given day and find that they've gotten rid of a hole or cut it in half. There is a 400 yard par 5 with a green that's 11 yards deep and 4 yards wide. Those numbers aren't jokes. Could be the worst course in America.
2. Texas A&M Golf Course, College Station. A terrible design with parallel holes, hidden hazards, paths running through the middle of the fairway and despite being an agricultural school it's conditions are beyond crappy. I read the other day that's it's going to be renovated.
3. Bear Creek Presidents, Houston. When it was built in 1969 it was designed to hold as many players as possible. The course is short, open, and for the most part void of hazards. It's also built in a flood plain so spends good chunks of the year closed.
4. Pasadena Golf Club, Pasadena, Texas. See #3 except this course is next to Ellington Air Field and the staff is unfriendly.
5. Sharpstown Golf Course, Houston. See 3 and 4. This course actually hosted a few Houston Open's in the 60's with good champions, Mike Souchak, and Bobby Nichols. There are lots of apartments on the course and most of them are lower income and populated by asians. Next to a par 3 a young gal asked my friend and I if we wanted to love her long time. Good times.
6. Pharoahs Country Club Corpus Christi, Texas. Internal OB, doglegs where you must play over houses, and you must cross a major road, sounds like fun. On the plus side it's just off Corpus Christi Bay.
7. Texas National, Willis. It's advertised at the Augusta of Texas, didn't know that Augusta was so claustrophobic.
8. Tomball Country Club Tomball, Texas. Short, narrow, hidden ponds that are the size of a couch.
9. World Houston, Houston. On the grounds at Bush Intercontinental Airport, I think it's closed now, smallest greens I've ever seen and built in a flood plain.
10. Sterling Country Club, Houston. This is one of the few new clubs that opened in America last year. It's about a mile from my house and is a shame because there are actually some really good holes on the back 9 but the front 9 could be the worst in America. There are 3 holes on the front where the pro tips say to play it over houses.
These are the worst Texas has to offer, Florida almost made an appearance as the Disney Palm Course just missed the bottom 10.
-
Now this is a thread I can enjoy..... I've never come close to playing a top 100 course, but this.... this I can do :)
1. A public course in Marlowe, Oklahoma whose name escapes me. A group of six of us played and we had four golf carts break down between the two groups over the course of 18 holes. I'm pretty sure the fairways were mowed by goats.
2. Sun Prairie Country Club, Sun Prairie, WI. It pains me to think that they actually held competitive high school matches here. Except for the actual greens, there was never a single blade of healthy, living grass anywhere on the property. Surrounded on four sides by barb-wire fences which separated the course from cornfields. Smelled like cow flop. Uphill, blind first hole. 17th hole had OB about five feet off the left-hand side of the, ahem, fairway. Doesn't help that I made 10 there once in a school meet.
3. Thorncreek Golf Course, Thornton, CO. As Murphy's Law says, the golf course closest to your house is usually the one you least want to play. That would apply to this abomination. This one has a couple of incredibly stupid holes. There is a 600 yard par-five on the front nine which has a creek cross right at about the 270 mark, so you are either forced to lay up, or you can try to hit the second landing area, which is literally the size of a large tee box and is guarded by the creek and a big bunker, or you can carry it 320 yards to a completely blind third fairway. The other really dumb hole is #11 which is a 460 yard par four and requires another forced layup due to an "environmentally sensitive area". And the worst part is, they built a fence on both sides of it because you can't go in there. But the fence is 5 feet high and is DIRECTLY IN THE LINE OF PLAY. That's right.... WOODEN FENCES directly across the line of play. I believe that happens on a couple of other holes too.
The one time I played the course, on that hole, I hit a perfect drive... only it was a little too perfect and ended up at the end of the fairway, with the WOODEN FENCE about 10 feet in front of my ball. Since I was 200 yards from the hole, I had to hit a hybrid..... I think you can guess what happened next. BANG. What a stupid, stupid golf hole.
4. Yahara Hills (East and West), Madison, WI. A 36 hole complex which consists of the exact same par-four hole 20 times, the exact same par-five hole 8 times, and the exact same par-three hole 8 times. Actually 7 times.... the other one has water. Boring, symmetrical perfect par routing. I put these two courses in as a single unit, mainly because the only way you can remember which one you are playing is to look at the sign. Otherwise, they are basically identical and indisguishable from each other. In fact, there are two par threes on the same course that are right next to each other that play in the exact same direction and are basically the exact same hole. They even share one stupidly large common teeing area. I dare anyone to find a 36 hole complex in America with less variety than this one.
5. Hyland Hills, Gold Course, Westminster, CO. Of course, the next closest facility to my home. I wish I'd played these courses before I bought this house.... this isn't really that bad except for the last two holes, which are stupid, ridiculous attempts to make it look like some kind of half-baked TPC layout. Two par-fours, which both have had original greens on the near side of a creek scrapped and replaced with two really tiny, really shallow greens placed hard on the other side of this creek, with ugly railroad tie frontages and Pete-Dye like pot bunkers, juxtaposed against what is otherwise a fairly benign parkland layout. It's a shame they added the third nine here, because the 9-hole Blue course contains the best holes on the property, and the ones they added (#7-15?) are much less interesting.
6. Pleasant View Golf Course, Middleton, WI. Pedestrian 18 (now 27) laid out in another cornfield with nothing of note around it. On a course that had maybe 10 trees on the entire layout, two of them were right smack in the middle of fairways. Only played here again because of a high school match. I aced the par-3 13th hole (which was a blind shot so I didn't see the ball drop) and broke 80 for the very first time here on my one and only loop.... and yet I never really had any desire to return there.
7. Robina Woods, Gold Coast, QLD, Australia. Was profoundly disappointing.... stupid, overly penal, overpriced swamp in Australia's equivalent of south Florida. Can't remember a single hole. Played it on the recommendation from a tour guide.... fool me once...
8. The International Golf Club, Orlando, FL. Boring, bland Joe Lee cookie cutter. Pretty sure it has been plowed under and re-christened some other moniker.
9. John F. Kennedy Golf Course, Aurora, CO. On this list solely for the 6th hole on one of the nines, which is a par-four that must be played 4-iron, 3-wood and no other way, thanks to the presence of a 70 yard wide gulch that splits the fairway from 240-310 yards out. And you get a lovely view of Interstate 225.
10. Legacy Ridge Golf Course, Westminster, CO. Arthur Hills at his diabolical worst. Three of the four par-fives are almost unplayable.
-
I think the course in Marlow is Generations or something silly like that, I've never played it but had a teammate in college from down that way.
-
Wow Matthew. I always thought Pleasant View was just the definition of average, but far from terrible. You must be pretty good at avoiding terrible courses.
1. Eagle Ridge, Louisa, KY - With apologies to Doug Ralston, I would greatly prefer that this taxpayer burden be turned back into forest. Interesting and dramatic in spots, but mostly an unplayable "hit and hope" nightmare. For me, this is the course that showed what a Doak 0 looks like.
2. Tumbledown Trails, Madison, WI - If Matthew thought Pleasant View was a crappy course in a cornfield, I'd love to hear what he thinks of this one just a mile or two away. Literally two holes on the course don't play COMPLETELY level. It's worth a look at the aerial just to see how amazingly bad and dangerous the back nine is, where you frequently hit balls directly over other holes: http://maps.google.com/maps?rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-Address&oe=&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=west+middleton+elementary+school,+verona&fb=1&gl=us&hq=west+middleton+elementary+school,+verona&hnear=west+middleton+elementary+school,+verona&cid=0,0,7281846308682431238&sa=X&ei=7SEAUPzDGuKm6wGGyZmXBw&ved=0CHYQ_BIwAA&oi=local_group&ct=image
The cute descriptions of holes 15 and 16 on their course website make me think they haven't been sued yet: http://tumbledowntrails.com/back9.html.
3. Bogie (sic) Busters at Coal Ridge, Georgetown, KY – My grandfather used to love playing here because it was never even a little bit crowded. Highlights include the third, a dogleg right that plays to a push-up green elevated 6 feet above its surroundings and no more than 1000 sq ft in size, and the amazing 12th (I think), a 280 yard par 4 that plays about 50 feet uphill in its final 50 yards to a volcano green surrounded by ornamental rock. Quite a blast to play actually, but mostly because of the almost unbelievably awful conditions (I had a buddy lag putt to 7 feet down the dead fairway from 170 yards last time we played) and some holes that stand among the most unique and stupid ever created.
And yes, they misspelled their own name.
4. High Point, Nicholasville, KY – More boring than the previous 3, this one is just bad. Not much challenge, terrible conditions, and some really stupid holes. As it lacks the quirk of the three above it, I’d actually recommend you play them first. You’ll learn a lot more about architecture and find yourself laughing out loud more than you will at this dull, short, mess of a course.
5. Canewood, Georgetown, KY – The poster child for the downsides to housing development golf. The first hole has a sign begging you not to cut the dogleg by aiming over the houses. It doesn’t get much better from there. Terrifyingly narrow in spots. Also the only course I’ve ever played with different fairway grasses on each nine (Bermuda on one and rye on the other).
6. Juniper Hills, Frankfort, KY – Amazingly, this one has been improved dramatically in the last few years. Mostly, it’s just too short and narrow to be of any interest at all. The first hole is the worst par 4 I’ve ever played, with a huge tree immediately in front of the tee box and a manmade, tarp-lined garden pond at the 300 yard mark that is somehow on top of a small hill instead of in a drainage basin.
7. Longview, Georgetown, KY – Cementing the Georgetown/Frankfort metro area as the worst golf location in the nation, Longview is another snoozer. A bad property, relatively poor conditions, and an absolute lack of any decent holes make this one a candidate for scrambles and not much else. They’ve recently started growing grapes on the property. It would make a much better winery than golf course.
8. Yahara Hills, Madison, WI – I agree with everything Matthew said on this one. I played one of the 18s once in a tournament, and would never go back even though it’s the least crowded public in the Madison area. It is at least relatively challenging, but holds absolutely no interest. And the two par 3s that are the same hole right next to each other are really amazing to see in person.
9. The Legend at Bergamont, Oregon, WI – Probably the “best” course on this list, Bergamont is kept in great shape. Unfortunately, it’s the most boring golf course I’ve ever played. Aside from some of the most impressive houses in southern Wisconsin lining the 10th fairway, it’s so dull that it’s hard to stay mentally engaged while playing it. It’s amazing to see the fairways graded so that they’re completely flat while being surrounded by mounding throughout the rough. Andy North designed it, and that’s fitting, because it’s about as interesting as he is on tv. I left on the 13th hole last time I played it because I was bored.
10. Lakeside, Lexington, KY – It’s long, and not much else. Just a dull, poorly conditioned, run of the mill muni.
-
Matt:
The International Golf Club on I-Drive in Orlando was in fact upgraded and is now Grande Pines. Steve Smyers worked with the existing corridors and increased the interest level by removing trees and adding wild green complexes.
Sam:
I'm surprised to hear Palm mentioned. I've always liked it, but maybe that's just relative to Disney's Lake Buena Vista (bland) and Magnolia courses. One problem I have heard is that Walt Disney himself wanted the WDW property to be fully functional upon opening, which resulted in a hurried construction timeline for the golf courses.
Some of mine:
* Magnolia Plantation (Orlando area)
* the aforementioned International (NLE - Orlando)
* Monastery (Orange Ciity, just N of Orlando - NLE): bizarre...makes my list despite many fun holes
* La Cita (Titusville, FL)
* Daytona GC (Dayton, MN): as I recall, golf design like a pool table...green and flat everywhere with a few holes
Some bad golf courses are a lot of fun to play. I'll see if I can remember some other forgettables.
-
10. Legacy Ridge Golf Course, Westminster, CO. Arthur Hills at his diabolical worst. Three of the four par-fives are almost unplayable.
I haven't played there in about 6 years, but do remember the par 5s as very challenging. I thought the rest of the course was at least decent though. Anyone else play there recently. I thought I needed to play there again... but maybe I don't.
-
Bella Colina outside of Orlando heads my list. Drop dead beautiful clubhouse. Two fairways you could not hold with a velcro balls and some super glue. Has some great potential but really needs someone with a big earth mover to pay a visit.
-
10. Legacy Ridge Golf Course, Westminster, CO. Arthur Hills at his diabolical worst. Three of the four par-fives are almost unplayable.
I haven't played there in about 6 years, but do remember the par 5s as very challenging. I thought the rest of the course was at least decent though. Anyone else play there recently. I thought I needed to play there again... but maybe I don't.
You do NOT need to play there again. More mounds than a Peter Paul factory. If you feel like a nut, I guess, give it a whirl. I played there in a friend's benefit scramble a few weeks ago. Good guy. Good cause. Glad I did it. Vowed at the end that I had played Legacy Ridge for the last time in my life. And I am VERY comfortable with that decision.
If you're looking for golf in the Westminster area, run, don't walk, to Heritage Westmoor, a Hurdzan/Fry design that really is pretty good.
-
Lots of Wisconsin courses listed -- all of which I've played. :D ???
Matthew: You under-estimate the appeal of the incredibly fast and firm conditions at Sun Prairie -- the only course in the area that for years didn't over-water its fairways, because it had no irrigation. Sadly, the course has added it, and my guess is that even in this record-setting dry summer here in southern Wisconsin, it's now sporting a shiny green hue. Too bad -- that course in mid-late summer was fun to play, because it resembled a links in the middle of a cornfield. Now it has little appeal.
Yahara Hills: Home to some of the largest tee boxes and greens known to man -- all of which slope back-to-front. I mean, all 36 of them. You guys forgot that it sits adjacent to the county landfill, adding a pleasant aroma when the wind's out of the north. Still, a couple of cool holes, but the descriptions are mostly accurate. (And a course complex full of some ornery regulars. I was playing there once with my father-in-law -- still the single most gentlemanly man I've ever known -- and we were walking and playing at our usual 10/12-minutes-a-hole pace. Two regulars behind us, while we were putting on a green, hit into us from the fairway. My father-in-law calmly watched one of their golf balls land no more than 10 feet from him, picked it up, and tossed it in the woods.)
Pleasant View: Ah, Goat Hill. Used to be better when it was just 18 holes -- they should've left well enough alone. It used to be an enjoyable if mundane round at a decent price with great views of the Madison skyline from the nondescript clubhouse that served decent burgers. Then they added a new nine, with fancy bunkers and water, and jacked up their rates. Food's not as good, either.
Tumbledown Trails: Wear a helmet! Self-designed, and pretty evident. A course that absolutely needs more trees.
Bergamont: Testimony to what can happen when over-zealous developers, with access to easy 1990s money, think housing and clubhouses are key to a successful golf course. Another attempt at a Midwestern faux links course on the front nine, made worse by the waterfall featured on the back nine. See: http://image001.mywedding.com/20/498/20498062_650.jpg An odd work by North, who did much better up in the Dells with Trappers Turn.
My own favorte: Argument Golf Course, near the pretty little town of New Glarus. A nine-hole course where conditioning can be, um, suspect. All of $13 to walk on the weekends; I'm not sure it's worth it. A course that makes a virtue out of lost balls; see this from their website:
"Can YOU play the Argue-Ment with just one ball? Each month we invite our players to attempt to play our 9-hole course using just one golf ball. Our naturalized layout makes succeeding at this a challenge, requiring careful playing and strategy. Visit us and take the challenge. All who succeed get entered in a monthly drawing to win a fun prize!"
My advice: Skip the golf, and head to the local brewery.
-
Matthew,
None of the 4 Colorado courses you mentioned are that bad. Play Box Elder Creek or Meadow Hills if you want true bottom 10 material.
-
I've played some bad golf courses over the years. Some that stick out:
1. Arizona Golf Resort, Mesa AZ. Townhouse on both sides of about 14 of 18 holes. I felt like a character in "The Hills Have Eyes" .
2. White Pines, Bensonville, IL. It was an average muni when I was a kid then during high school they planted about 1000 trees. Now the course is very narrow and play takes forever. Don't worry, it is overpriced, too.
3. Old Orchard Golf Course, Arlington Heights, IL. Too narrow, tree infested. Plus they dye the ponds blue, like Ty-Dee-Bowl. WTF?
4. Indian Boundary, Chicago, IL This is a county course run by Billy Casper Golf. Every penny is wrung out of this place. The bathrooms smell like a hobo convention. It opened in January and allowed carts (when the top 1/4 inch was thawed, so the carts destroyed the turf. It looked like a tractor pull. One of the starters is a retired CPD detective and cops get to play for free. Nevermind the tee sheet is full - he just puts them between groups. One can imagine how the apologies go when you hit into a group of drunk and armed cops.
5. Sydny MArovitz, Chicago, IL. This lil 9 hole gem is on the lakefront, it used to be called Waveland. The course itself is fine. But three hour rounds are routine. Overcrowded and nobody fixes a ballmark or replaces a divot. Once had a guy walk up to me on the course and ask if I wanted to buy some pot. Favorite memory: getting up early one morning to play a quick nine at daybreak and saw one homeless dude giving another bum some "mouth love" under some bushes. Some things, my friends, one cannot unsee.
-
Wow Matthew. I always thought Pleasant View was just the definition of average, but far from terrible. You must be pretty good at avoiding terrible courses.
1. Eagle Ridge, Louisa, KY - With apologies to Doug Ralston, I would greatly prefer that this taxpayer burden be turned back into forest. Interesting and dramatic in spots, but mostly an unplayable "hit and hope" nightmare. For me, this is the course that showed what a Doak 0 looks like.
0-A course so contrived and unnatural that it may poison your mind, which I cannot recommend under any circumstances. Reserved for courses that wasted ridiculous sums of money in their construction, and probably shouldn’t have been built in the first place.
Come on now, a Doak 0, yes I would assume the course required a fair amount of money to build and their C.I.P cart paths seem over the top, but there are some decent holes out there (I know the 13th is gimicky, indulgent, etc.). But, there is no way you can convince me that it qualifies on all points of TD's definition above (and I am not an Art Hills fan)! But, like Golf Digest and their lists, even personal lists need to have controversy to generate conversation, rgiht?
Chris
-
Lots of Wisconsin courses listed -- all of which I've played. :D ???
Matthew: You under-estimate the appeal of the incredibly fast and firm conditions at Sun Prairie -- the only course in the area that for years didn't over-water its fairways, because it had no irrigation. Sadly, the course has added it, and my guess is that even in this record-setting dry summer here in southern Wisconsin, it's now sporting a shiny green hue. Too bad -- that course in mid-late summer was fun to play, because it resembled a links in the middle of a cornfield. Now it has little appeal.
Yahara Hills: Home to some of the largest tee boxes and greens known to man -- all of which slope back-to-front. I mean, all 36 of them. You guys forgot that it sits adjacent to the county landfill, adding a pleasant aroma when the wind's out of the north. Still, a couple of cool holes, but the descriptions are mostly accurate. (And a course complex full of some ornery regulars. I was playing there once with my father-in-law -- still the single most gentlemanly man I've ever known -- and we were walking and playing at our usual 10/12-minutes-a-hole pace. Two regulars behind us, while we were putting on a green, hit into us from the fairway. My father-in-law calmly watched one of their golf balls land no more than 10 feet from him, picked it up, and tossed it in the woods.)
Pleasant View: Ah, Goat Hill. Used to be better when it was just 18 holes -- they should've left well enough alone. It used to be an enjoyable if mundane round at a decent price with great views of the Madison skyline from the nondescript clubhouse that served decent burgers. Then they added a new nine, with fancy bunkers and water, and jacked up their rates. Food's not as good, either.
Tumbledown Trails: Wear a helmet! Self-designed, and pretty evident. A course that absolutely needs more trees.
Bergamont: Testimony to what can happen when over-zealous developers, with access to easy 1990s money, think housing and clubhouses are key to a successful golf course. Another attempt at a Midwestern faux links course on the front nine, made worse by the waterfall featured on the back nine. See: http://image001.mywedding.com/20/498/20498062_650.jpg An odd work by North, who did much better up in the Dells with Trappers Turn.
My own favorte: Argument Golf Course, near the pretty little town of New Glarus. A nine-hole course where conditioning can be, um, suspect. All of $13 to walk on the weekends; I'm not sure it's worth it. A course that makes a virtue out of lost balls; see this from their website:
"Can YOU play the Argue-Ment with just one ball? Each month we invite our players to attempt to play our 9-hole course using just one golf ball. Our naturalized layout makes succeeding at this a challenge, requiring careful playing and strategy. Visit us and take the challenge. All who succeed get entered in a monthly drawing to win a fun prize!"
My advice: Skip the golf, and head to the local brewery.
I was looking at the website for Argue-Ment just yesterday. Weird. I'm heading to that area in a few weeks and my buddy who has a cottage up there was telling me about it.
-
Goose Run Golf Course (Groton, CT) - It should have a real soft spot in my heart as it's the first course my dad took me out on. Here's a description from NewLondon.golfnation.org:
"This short course was built on flat terrain and is easy to walk. The tree-lined fairways are narrow and have out-of-bounds stakes on both sides. The greens are of medium size and speed. There is only one brook that comes into play on one hole, but there are sand bunkers on every hole. Most par 4's are short enough to use a driver and then a wedge. The green fees shown are good for all-day play. The course is closed on Monday until noon."
York Par 3 Golf Course (York, ME)- When I was in Jr. High this place was fun to go out at night under the lights. Apparently now the tees and greens are all astroturf.
Penmar Golf Course (Venice, CA) - I know I'm picking on the flat 9 hole courses.
Armand Hammer Pony Course (West LA) - Geoff Shackleford has written real positive things about this place, but my take is you could just as easily go to a field and have as much fun as you do at this place.
Monterey Pines (Monterey, CA) - I rarely played at this course because Old Del Monte close by let junior golfers play for free but when I did I never enjoyed myself. I will say I went back and played in 2010 and it wasn't a bad place as I previously recalled. They recently redid the greens, and the conditions of the greens were dramatically improved.
East Potomac Park (Washington DC)- Maybe blasphamy for putting a Travis course on the list but hoping it's not true to original design. The land is unfortunately flat. There is trash all around. The rounds last 6 hours.
Furnace Creek (Death Valley, CA) - How could a golf course in death valley turn out to be anything but a dud. I have to admit it's pretty impressive most of the course is alive.
Tierra Rejada (Moorpark CA) - Very narrow. Not a lot to love. The most elevated tee to a diagonal fairway I have ever seen (something I'm not a big fan off).
Negril Hills Golf Club (Negril Jamaica)- The only course I've played outside of the country. Caddy was a bit crazy, was not a good experience.
Morro Bay Golf Course (Morro Bay, CA)- I'm having a tough time getting to ten. I didn't have fun on the course. Not sure exactly why as there are some decent holes, some elevations changes and pretty views.
All of that being said the first six courses on my list have a purpose in the golf world (and it feels like a bit of a cop out, but I had a real tough time picking ten). They are generally very cheap and a good place to pick up the game. Shoot I still play Penmar even though it's on my bottom ten...it's cheap, it's close and I'd rather be on any course than hitting balls on the range (or not playing golf at all).
-
Chris, let's take a close look at the definition.
0-A course so contrived and unnatural that it may poison your mind, which I cannot recommend under any circumstances. Reserved for courses that wasted ridiculous sums of money in their construction, and probably shouldn’t have been built in the first place.
I don't know the construction cost, but I know it had to be high based on the incredible severity of the property and your aforementioned cart paths (which were built and then rebuilt after the original ones were too unsafe, which is amazing considering how dangerous they still are. The only course I've ever seen with runaway-cart ramps in place for drivers who can't make some of the hairpin corners going downhill). All of this was paid for with taxpayer dollars. Considering the course gets about 6000 rounds per year (and has never reached 7000), I'd say that was a waste of a ridiculous amount of money.
So the only part left is the "contrived and unnatural" part. If no course is truly unwalkable, Eagle Ridge is as close as it gets. It's golf on top of and around the side of a mountain, with fierce land grading throughout and its construction would have required the clearing of thousands of trees. It's about as unnatural as a golf course can be. Is it contrived? Well, the 4th is a heinous mess and about a dozen other holes can only be described as gimmicks.
I think it fits the definition perfectly. It's admittedly a love/hate course, and I know some people enjoy it. Admittedly, I hate it more than most, but I'm certainly not alone either. Personally, I just don't get that big of a kick out of hitting a ball off a cliff to a 15 yard wide corridor over and over. Of course, the definition of a Doak 0 affords room for people whose minds have been poisoned by a course...
A link to my photo tour: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,52291.0.html
-
Trent Lock Golf Club, Long Eaton, Nottingham, England.
It'll make Eagle Ridge look like Pine Valley.
-
This was harder than I thought….I had to reach back to find some courses from my days before I searched for good GCA in my travels. I say all of this with the constant reminder that any day on the golf course is better than one in the office!
10. Bradford CC, MA. This course was once the ultimate mind-poisoner, with several “iron-iron-iron” par fives and a mind-bending 12th hole with layup areas the size of greens that were near islands in a pond. New ownership recently has made a good number of changes, and membership numbers are back up. Unfortunately for me the scars of youth are probably too deep for a return engagement.
9. Sugarbush GC, VT. A great ski resort with a poor golf course, courtesy of RTJ. With recent renovations to the ski and stay facilities, one would think Sugarbush would renovate or blow up their golf course to keep up with Sunday River/Sugarloaf/Jay Peak/Stowe as a summer destination. The course is too narrow, unkempt at the best of times, and is unwalkable to the point of comedy.
8. Cyprian Keyes, MA. The facility that once hosted the NE Golf HOF also counts many good players among its membership. I think you have to be good to hit a few 10-yd wide hole corridors, and play target, bug-infested golf for 4.5 hours. Their skillful marketing team will have Boston-area residents believing that CK is a treat, but the truth is far from it.
7. Townsend Ridge, MA. Too narrow, too many sharp doglegs, and boring. One hole on the front nine is 435, uphill, with a 15-yard wide
playing corridor with impenetrable woods on both sides.
6. Kelley Greens, MA. An executive 9-holer that once was a neat regulation Wayne Stiles 9 with ocean views. Several holes were
removed for development, a huge sea wall now blocks the ocean view, and the remaining collection of par threes and short par fours are as tired as can be. One silver lining? The course is open all winter if you like playing golf on ground that mimics a Logan runway…
5. Bridgton Highlands, ME. This 18 holer with roots at the beginning of the 20th century is boring at its best, and insane at its worst…the 16th hole is a 270-yard par four with a 120-degree dogleg! This one is a must-miss.
4. Boca Raton Executive Muni, FL. I last played this as a 14-yr old visiting a friend in FL. This course of par 3s and 4s is full of dirt, crap-filled ponds that an alligator wouldn’t even live in. All surrounded by gazillion $$ homes protected by nets as far as the eye can see. Awesomely bad.
3. Cedar Glen, MA. A little 9-holer in Saugus, MA that is perennially trying to rid itself of the moniker “Seedless Glen.” The course layout is not horrific, but the conditions are. The only noteworthy hole is a 210-yard par three with interior OB on both sides! I once witnessed a pickup truck driving down the center of the fairways at the end of the day picking up the pins.
2. Waukewan GC, NH. A shortish homemade 18 near Lake Winnepesaukee with a few nice views of the surrounding countryside that would be great for a hike, not for golf. Awkward at its best.
1. Holden Hills, MA. A ratty 18 that is rough around the edges with a strange collection of holes. One short par four requires a short iron from the tee to clear a huge tree directly in front of you. Another par five is about 640 yards for some reason. The 18th is as hard as a rock, and your ball only stops when it hits a car in the parking lot. I played a qualifier here in college, and our team decided not to attempt to qualify for a big tournament the following two years to avoid playing the qualifier at HH.
Honorable Mention: Ponkapoag in Canton, MA. The property is run by the MDC, and contains two golf courses, each with 9 of the original 18 by Donald Ross. I believe one nine has been shut down at this point leaving 27 holes, as there is no $$ to spare on the courses, and conditions had deteriorated to the point of being unplayable on that 9. This is the only golf course I have ever played that contained potholes in the fairways, and the site of the only tournament I have ever played that allowed a player to LCP ANYWHERE, including hazards, on a brilliantly sunny summer day. Long lampooned in Rick Reilly’s books, Ponkapoag does have great Ross roots and a nice rolling property rivaling anything found in the Boston area. There were always a few flaws in the routing brought about by drainage and the newfound length now possessed by today’s golfers that created a few strange routing modifications and the abandonment of several tees.
The USGA was in discussions a few years ago to close the property for 24 months and restore/create a US Open course much in the vein of Bethpage, but the MDC said no to the loss of a two year’s worth of (light) revenue. 4-5 years later, 9 Ross holes are going back to nature, the course still makes no money, and Boston has lost a potential US Open venue with TCC now having a lack of interest in pro events. A sad story for golf architecture junkies indeed!
-
9. John F. Kennedy Golf Course, Aurora, CO. On this list solely for the 6th hole on one of the nines, which is a par-four that must be played 4-iron, 3-wood and no other way, thanks to the presence of a 70 yard wide gulch that splits the fairway from 240-310 yards out. And you get a lovely view of Interstate 225.
That hole at Kennedy is bad bad bad. I grew up right near the course and worked at the driving range there for one summer.
Over the years, I eventually took to the strategy of hitting driver off the tee, trying to carry the creek. I succeeded a few times, usually failed. But at least if you failed then you could drop right at the creek edge and leave a much shorter third shot in than what you'd have if you laid up off the tee. No trouble around the green so even if I had a creek penalty I knew I would pretty much never make worse than double, and that was easy enough to do after a lay-up anyway.
Not good strategy, and a shame because that creek could have been used so well.
I also knew girls who literally couldn't finish the hole. They played HS tournaments there sometimes and would set up a drop area on the other side of the creek. That's just bad.
-
I guess most of these are more mediocre than bad..... They stand out I suppose because I
1) had a bad experience,
2) had one stupid Mickey Mouse hole that makes it hard to forgive the other 17, or
3) I paid a lot of money for something that was really disappointing.
I am actually inspired now to find some of these you guys are suggesting :)
-
Chris, let's take a close look at the definition.
0-A course so contrived and unnatural that it may poison your mind, which I cannot recommend under any circumstances. Reserved for courses that wasted ridiculous sums of money in their construction, and probably shouldn’t have been built in the first place.
I don't know the construction cost, but I know it had to be high based on the incredible severity of the property and your aforementioned cart paths (which were built and then rebuilt after the original ones were too unsafe, which is amazing considering how dangerous they still are. The only course I've ever seen with runaway-cart ramps in place for drivers who can't make some of the hairpin corners going downhill). All of this was paid for with taxpayer dollars. Considering the course gets about 6000 rounds per year (and has never reached 7000), I'd say that was a waste of a ridiculous amount of money.
So the only part left is the "contrived and unnatural" part. If no course is truly unwalkable, Eagle Ridge is as close as it gets. It's golf on top of and around the side of a mountain, with fierce land grading throughout and its construction would have required the clearing of thousands of trees. It's about as unnatural as a golf course can be. Is it contrived? Well, the 4th is a heinous mess and about a dozen other holes can only be described as gimmicks.
I think it fits the definition perfectly. It's admittedly a love/hate course, and I know some people enjoy it. Admittedly, I hate it more than most, but I'm certainly not alone either. Personally, I just don't get that big of a kick out of hitting a ball off a cliff to a 15 yard wide corridor over and over. Of course, the definition of a Doak 0 affords room for people whose minds have been poisoned by a course...
A link to my photo tour: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,52291.0.html
Well Jason, we will agree to disagree on fitting the definition PERFECTLY,
I don't love the course like some or Doug R, but I don't find it a Doak 0.
There were several holes there I found quite nice. The first is the short little par 3 before the 13th. The second was the par 5 that wraps around the ravine on the left side. I do not remember the holes number b/c I have only played the course twice. I know the story of the cart paths, and they have built numerous other courses on as extreme of land and had no problem with constructing them . . . sounds like bad engineering or construction.
I understand what it is like when someone hates a course and can be prone to hyperbole to back up this hate. Be that as it may, it sounds like you hate Eagle Ridge and I simply do not find it a true Doak 0. I have read The Confidential Guide and played Eagle Ridge and did not find my mind poisoned by the course.
Chris
-
1. The Summit-NLE- Berkeley Springs, WV-Had the worse hole I've ever seen!
2. Sleepy Hollow-Charles town, WV
3. Goose Creek-Leesburg, VA
4. Carper's Valley-NLE- Winchester, VA
5. Cobb's Creek(Olde)-Philadelphia,PA
6. Sea Scape, Nags Head, NC
7. Montclair-dumfries, VA
8. Chesapeake Bay(North East)-North East, MD
9. Bowling Green(North)-Front Royal, VA
10. Ed Oliver-Wilmington, DE
-
1. Crossings at Carlsbad, Carlsbad, CA
This makes the list by virtue of being the place I'd most readily identify as a Doak 0. It's not that the golf is entirely worthless here, but it is cart ball to the extreme. Andthere's just so much ridiculousness that in the end I stood on the 18th green and thought, "If the environmental and other restrictions were such that this was the only golf course they could have built here, then they just shouldn't have built it at all."
2. Eagle's Next, Silverthorn, CO [NLE]
Also edging on that Doak 0 territory, eventually enough people agreed that the place just wasn't worth it and the course shut down. The site is now Raven at Three Peaks, and I understand is a much better layout. Eagle's Nest was a Dick Phelps design on a very severe mountain site with a handful of completely coring holes in the valley balanced against a number of ridiculous holes that tended to play either straight up or straight down the sides of the mountain (most memorable was one hole where the tee shot played downhill some 100 feet to a low area, the hole then made a left turn and played straight back up the hill at an angle that makes at 8th at Spyglass look gentle.
3. Heatherridge, Aurora, CO
Fits with Matthew Rose's logic about the course closest to your home. This course was within walking distance of where I lived from age 5 until I went off to college, and I played it a handful of times at most. It was private, which is absurd (I guess it's since been opened to the public), but we never gave any thought to joining. If it had been public I still would never have played there. Some of the corridors between condos where two holes lie barely should be big enough for one hole. Back tees stretch to all of 6100 yards at a mile of elevation but every hole features OB and/or water, many of them both, so get ready for a steady diet of 5-irons off the tee and wedges into the greens. I have no idea why this is one of the few Colorado courses that Tom played and put in the CG, but his 1 verges on generous.
4. Great Eagle, Surprise, AZ
Sometimes you can judge a course by the sort of real estate built around it. No real estate is the most ideal, but then the home around the likes of Pebble Beach tell you something too. Well, the back nine of this course plays through a trailer park.
5. Arizona Grand, Tempe, AZ (formerly Pointe South Mountain, Phantom Horse, etc)
Probably not a great course when built, but I would guess one with lots of quirk and some fun holes. Then they built the homes around it. The par 5 6th plays sharply uphill with the second shot needing to carry a steep slope that is entirely blind save for a directional pole at the top of the hill. This would be kind of fun if it weren't for a street encroaching on the left, and homes quite near the green on the right. The dogleg left ninth had homes built so tight on the inside of the dogleg (and the outside for that matter), that the hole is barely playable. I trie to hit a 5-iron off the tee and it would have gone through the fairway OB except for being saved by one of the many nets set up to protect the houses. Then there's the long cart ride from 8 green to 9 tee that take you through a residential cul de sac. The resort has also long been tinkering with the start and finish of the course. I don't know how it originally played but when I first saw it, 17 was a drop shot par 3 and 18 a short par 4 to an island green. Now that island is used as the first tee, creating a short blind par 4 first, and the drop shot par 3 is 18. It's a good 5 minutes cart ride through the resort from that green back to the pro shop.
6. John F Kennedy, Denver, CO
Matthew Rose already covered the most egregious hole. The other 17 on the original course are simply bland and squeezed between a freeway and a busy road, and the "new" nine (opened mid-90s, as I recall) is more ineteresting but includes a couple goofy holes and bears zero resemblance to everything else at JFK.
7. Aurora Hills, Aurora, CO
Again, it's greatest sin is simple blandness. That and the 7th hole, a medium-length par 3 where any player whose most common miss with a long iron is left, where any shot hit that way leaves a few breathless moments as you wait to hear if the wayward ball will strike a car on busy Alameda Ave. Then there's the 10th, a par 5 that asks for a drive of no more than 200y before the hole makes a 90 degree turn to the right. A lake guards the entire right side and a canal runs down the left. It's theoretically possible to hit driver over the corner of the lake at the dogleg but you would have to do so with a slice in order to keep it out of the canal on the other side.
8. Starr Pass, Tucson, AZ
Mostly for the newer nine built within the past ten years, and the changes they made to the original holes around the same time. This was the first desert course I ever played. I know they played a round of the Tucson Open here for a few years until the pros whined enough that they moved it, but I liked the original 18. It pains me to put it on this list ... but a few years back they reconfigured some of the holes and built a new 9 that are the exact opposite of how I feel a resort course should play. For a good player, the new holes play pretty easy. Target golf, sure, but short, where a 3 wood and short iron will generally be all that's needed. But that tee shot might require a 180-200yard carry over desert off the tee. No big deal for a good player, but absolute torture for a hacker from the midwest who has never played a desert course. The one time I played the new nine I shot a nice score from the tips while watching a husband and waife on vacation lose multiple balls on every hole. Felt so bad for them. I've never felt the need to go abck. I'd guess they haven't either.
9. Palm Valley (Palms), Litchfield, AZ
I have played a lot of housing development courses that aren't very good but this is the worst to date. Not an interesting hole out there. Worse, what I do remember is most holes seem to have crowned fairways. Artificial mounding that puts every hole in its own bowl may not be ideal, but it's certainly better than crowned holes where every shot not perfectly on line will tend to run off into the desert.
10. The Legacy, Las Vegas, NV
Arthur Hills at his finest and most boring. The only noteworthy thing going on here is the set of tee boxes on the 10th(?) hole--shaped like a diamond, heart, spade, and club. If that's all you have going for you ...
-
Chris,
I also enjoyed the 12th hole. The green was a great concept and I'd love to see how it would play at a longer distance. Probably my favorite on the course. I also enjoyed the tee shot at 13, though I think it's a bit of a one-trick hole.
I don't disagree that there are a handful of nice holes, but also some uniquely awful ones. I disliked the overall concept and found it unpleasant to play.
Where would you put it on the Doak Scale?
-
Please note that Cory Lewis put Cobbs Creek on his Bottom 10. Well it's flooding and I'm stuck at home, atleast I will have something to read today.........
-
Gentleman: I don't need to get to ten when mentioning the follwoin gems:
2. Bear Brook - Fredon, NJ - 18 signature holes. triple tierred green that run away from you, 600 yard par 5 with 90 degree dogleg with a 2nd shot landing the size of a par 3 green, narrow corridors, rolling terrain, what more could one ask for
1. Country Club of the Poconos at Big Ridge- 12 miles of cart part, a par 4 with 8 irontee shot followed by a hybrid due to wetlands. What more can you say.
Winner, winner!
-
Chris,
I also enjoyed the 12th hole. The green was a great concept and I'd love to see how it would play at a longer distance. Probably my favorite on the course. I also enjoyed the tee shot at 13, though I think it's a bit of a one-trick hole.
I don't disagree that there are a handful of nice holes, but also some uniquely awful ones. I disliked the overall concept and found it unpleasant to play.
Where would you put it on the Doak Scale?
Jason,
I would say a Doak 2 or 3. But, I will say there are a couple of thrilling tee shots there. I do like extreme golf every once in awhile!! ;D
I forgot to say that I agree that the 4th is an AWFULL hole. I remember getting to this hole on both the tee shot and 2nd shot and saying what the you know what do I do here!!
I should post my top 10, but I suspect many on this board will not have heard of most of the courses. My one regret when I lived in the NYC area was not playing the Country Club of the Poconos at Big Ridge. Mike Cirba used to post about the course and it was legendary!! So bad, I wished I would have experienced it (see attached):
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,47444.0.html
Chris
-
1. Grenada Golf Club (Grenada) - Those that say they LOVE quirk, check it out. Par three opener(thats the good),Greens stimping at about 2, horseshoe shaped hole, multiple crossing holes... just a doozy.
2. Mahogany Run (St Thomas USVI) - Great land for about 12 wonderful holes, unfortunately they have 18 holes.
3. Gulf Harbour Yacht & CC (Ft Myers, FL) - Simply atrocious real estate/condo golf
4. Orange Lake Resort (Orlando, FL) - Swamp left, swamp right 35 yard corridors... they mix it up br having you cross a swamp on occasion -avoid at all costs.
5. South Hills GC (Parkersburg, WV) - Poor routing on a decent piece of land suited for fewer holes. Now owned by a good friend... I feel badly for Ted!
6. Treesdale GC (Pittsburgh, PA) - Terrible Palmer course, tee shots over roads... etc.
7. Glenville Golf Club (Glenville, WV) - 9 holes on land meant for about 7
8. The Sanctuary (Sanibel Island, FL) - just typical Florida swamp golf in very high end developement. Art Hills.
9. Buccaneer GC - (St. Croix, USVI) - Don't believe there was a decent golf hole on the property... plenty of views though
10. Puerto Los Cabos - (San José del Cabo, México) - Aside from the fact that is a hybrid Nicklaus/Norman design they were each given a portion of land that is not necessarily suited for golf. First hole on each plays up a 25-30% grade. Each also have a very short stretch on the ocean and Norman did a far better job with his though the few good holes do not make up for an otherwise bizarre course/experience. Views are wonderful however. Bottom of the list for Cabo golf (supppose I can check that family off the list of potential future employers!)
-
Chris,
I also enjoyed the 12th hole. The green was a great concept and I'd love to see how it would play at a longer distance. Probably my favorite on the course. I also enjoyed the tee shot at 13, though I think it's a bit of a one-trick hole.
I don't disagree that there are a handful of nice holes, but also some uniquely awful ones. I disliked the overall concept and found it unpleasant to play.
Where would you put it on the Doak Scale?
Jason,
I would say a Doak 2 or 3. But, I will say there are a couple of thrilling tee shots there. I do like extreme golf every once in awhile!! ;D
I forgot to say that I agree that the 4th is an AWFULL hole. I remember getting to this hole on both the tee shot and 2nd shot and saying what the you know what do I do here!!
I should post my top 10, but I suspect many on this board will not have heard of most of the courses. My one regret when I lived in the NYC area was not playing the Country Club of the Poconos at Big Ridge. Mike Cirba used to post about the course and it was legendary!! So bad, I wished I would have experienced it (see attached):
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,47444.0.html
Chris
Good news a little birdie relayed to me recently: CCotP@BR offers discounted rates via GolfNow. ;D
-
Armand Hammer Pony Course (West LA) - Geoff Shackleford has written real positive things about this place, but my take is you could just as easily go to a field and have as much fun as you do at this place.
thank you! every hole is 50 yds long and you have to bump it under trees (thru kikyu if memory serves) to get to the green. i don't know why it gets good reviews on this site.
-
You boys might be playing for second place. Haven't played the courses below but it appears to be an ingenious routing of two 18's. Best I can tell you start either south of E. Hartford or north of E. Glassboro Ct. and then zig-zag east/west then turn around when you reach the north or south border and head back, zig-zagging east/west again.
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8426/7564018702_96238d9840_z.jpg)
Bogey
-
I wish I knew how to post a Google maps pic here.
My personal "blow it up"course is Rocky River Golf Course in Concord, NC which is located next to a drag strip. And I mean next to it.
-
I wish I knew how to post a Google maps pic here.
My personal "blow it up"course is Rocky River Golf Course in Concord, NC which is located next to a drag strip. And I mean next to it.
I just happened to have that one handy, Doc. ;)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/8844b6c3.jpg)
-
You boys might be playing for second place. Haven't played the courses below but it appears to be an ingenious routing of two 18's. Best I can tell you start either south of E. Hartford or north of E. Glassboro Ct. and then zig-zag east/west then turn around when you reach the north or south border and head back, zig-zagging east/west again.
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8426/7564018702_96238d9840_z.jpg)
Bogey
That is almost exacly what the routing looked like for the course David Kidd was to do here in Cabo. In fairness he did have 3 or 4 holes in the dunes before the ladder routing commenced. Awful does not describe it... and this was to be adjacent to Diamante. Sure they would have done quite well.
-
My bottom 10...
10) Oprah Winfrey
9) Michelle Obama
8 ) Jessica Simpson
7) Snooki
6) Stacey Dash
5) Shakira
4) Jennifer Lopez
3) Kim Kardasian
2) Nikki Minaj
1) Coco Austin
Honorable Mention...Rush Limbaugh... ;D
-
My bottom 10...
10) Oprah Winfrey
9) Michelle Obama
8 ) Jessica Simpson
7) Snooki
6) Stacey Dash
5) Shakira
4) Jennifer Lopez
3) Kim Kardasian
2) Nikki Minaj
1) Coco Austin
How dare you place Shakira amongst such a group?
-
Oprah is not an attractive women but for my weekly allowance I'd go down there and wreck shop.
-
I guess most of these are more mediocre than bad..... They stand out I suppose because I
1) had a bad experience,
2) had one stupid Mickey Mouse hole that makes it hard to forgive the other 17, or
3) I paid a lot of money for something that was really disappointing.
I am actually inspired now to find some of these you guys are suggesting :)
I hear Lake Arbor is the worst in the Denver area, but I haven't played it. I think it might be mentioned in the Confidential guide.
-
I wish I knew how to post a Google maps pic here.
My personal "blow it up"course is Rocky River Golf Course in Concord, NC which is located next to a drag strip. And I mean next to it.
I just happened to have that one handy, Doc. ;)
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/8844b6c3.jpg)
Thanks E. A picture is worth a 1000 words.
Sorry, I forgot about the dirt track.
-
Mountain Air in NC mountains starts off with overly severe slopes and kept getting lost on neighborhoods between holes plus AstroTurf tees on several par 3s. But my winner is a course in Jamaca,name long forgotten.The conditions were awful.Caddies were required to guard your clubs from theft.The caddies stayed with the bags while we putted because the week before one tended a pin and his guys clubs got stolen in a run by
-
2. Bear Brook - Fredon, NJ - 18 signature holes. triple tierred green that run away from you, 600 yard par 5 with 90 degree dogleg with a 2nd shot landing the size of a par 3 green, narrow corridors, rolling terrain, what more could one ask for
This one intrigued me so I went to their website and took a "tour" of the course online. Here are some holes and the descriptions given by the club. Grammatical and spelling areas are from the original, apparently the guy who wrote this couldn't spell the word "straight."
Hole #1 - PLAY TO THE 150 POLE (Black & White pole in the middle of the fairway) Pick a club you can hit stright 200 yards! Anything left is gree-capped enviromental and is a free drop from where it went in.
Hole #2 - Course management skills are put to the test early in your round, with this abrupt dogleg right....Strong hitters leave your driver in the bag off the tee. Try to land just shy of the 150 yard post in the middle of the fairway. DO NOT HIT OVER THE HOUSE AND DO NOT TRY TO RETRIEVE YOUR BALL FROM THEIR LAWNS!!
Hole #4 - Despite the course drawing clearly showing two alternate greens, You made it through the first three holes! You can grip and rip now. There's only one green here and it's stright out over the horizon. This hole is fairly wide open so widen your stance!
Hole #6 - The above mentioned L-shaped par 5 hole, One of our more scenic holes, the first par five you face is also testing. Even the most hearty won't try to get home in two. You'll need to carry a broad natural area to reach the green. Don't worry, you can buy more golf balls in the pro shop at the turn.
Hole #12 - Swing away.......aim for the 150 pole and just right of it if your a big hitter, the fairway bends ever so slightly right on top of the hill. And be careful with your cart - stay off the hill! Second Shot - aim stright over the irrigation box to the right of the fairway!
Hole #14 - According to the drawing the hole plays 706 from the back tee. Fourteen -the big Kahuna - the one you've heard about. It is long with a capital "L". If it was a ski slope, it would be a Black Diamond. You'll love par here...Forget reaching in two. You must be long and straight to get home in 3.
Hole #15 - You deserve some eye candy at this point in the round. This beautiful setting is our signature hole - an inviting green floating on a series of ponds linked by a gentle waterfall. Great golf hole!
Hole #16 - Another sight to behold. The view from the tee is simply amazing - you can nearly see all the way to Pennsylvania. Now look down and focus on keeping your tee shot in the fairway...This is a blind-shot so aim stright over the red & white directional pole. There's more room up ahead than you think so keep an eye on your partner's balls. [Emphasis added.] OB on both sides - please do not try to retrieve your balls. Second shot is all downhill so choose accordingly.
Hole #18 - Quite a bizarre and cryptic warning on this hole. Beware of the right side of the fairway - the creek is lying in wait. That's our golf ball grave yard. Keep in mind you are responsible for the flight of your ball and there's no way you're going to reach the green from the tee - so align your shot within the boundaries of the hole!
I think I need to play it.
-
I played golden tee last night for the first time in six or seven years. Made me think of this thread, and all the courses you have to hit a big A3 on.
-
2. Bear Brook - Fredon, NJ - 18 signature holes. triple tierred green that run away from you, 600 yard par 5 with 90 degree dogleg with a 2nd shot landing the size of a par 3 green, narrow corridors, rolling terrain, what more could one ask for
This one intrigued me so I went to their website and took a "tour" of the course online. Here are some holes and the descriptions given by the club. Grammatical and spelling areas are from the original, apparently the guy who wrote this couldn't spell the word "straight."
Hole #1 - PLAY TO THE 150 POLE (Black & White pole in the middle of the fairway) Pick a club you can hit stright 200 yards! Anything left is gree-capped enviromental and is a free drop from where it went in.
Hole #2 - Course management skills are put to the test early in your round, with this abrupt dogleg right....Strong hitters leave your driver in the bag off the tee. Try to land just shy of the 150 yard post in the middle of the fairway. DO NOT HIT OVER THE HOUSE AND DO NOT TRY TO RETRIEVE YOUR BALL FROM THEIR LAWNS!!
Hole #4 - Despite the course drawing clearly showing two alternate greens, You made it through the first three holes! You can grip and rip now. There's only one green here and it's stright out over the horizon. This hole is fairly wide open so widen your stance!
Hole #6 - The above mentioned L-shaped par 5 hole, One of our more scenic holes, the first par five you face is also testing. Even the most hearty won't try to get home in two. You'll need to carry a broad natural area to reach the green. Don't worry, you can buy more golf balls in the pro shop at the turn.
Hole #12 - Swing away.......aim for the 150 pole and just right of it if your a big hitter, the fairway bends ever so slightly right on top of the hill. And be careful with your cart - stay off the hill! Second Shot - aim stright over the irrigation box to the right of the fairway!
Hole #14 - According to the drawing the hole plays 706 from the back tee. Fourteen -the big Kahuna - the one you've heard about. It is long with a capital "L". If it was a ski slope, it would be a Black Diamond. You'll love par here...Forget reaching in two. You must be long and straight to get home in 3.
Hole #15 - You deserve some eye candy at this point in the round. This beautiful setting is our signature hole - an inviting green floating on a series of ponds linked by a gentle waterfall. Great golf hole!
Hole #16 - Another sight to behold. The view from the tee is simply amazing - you can nearly see all the way to Pennsylvania. Now look down and focus on keeping your tee shot in the fairway...This is a blind-shot so aim stright over the red & white directional pole. There's more room up ahead than you think so keep an eye on your partner's balls. [Emphasis added.] OB on both sides - please do not try to retrieve your balls. Second shot is all downhill so choose accordingly.
Hole #18 - Quite a bizarre and cryptic warning on this hole. Beware of the right side of the fairway - the creek is lying in wait. That's our golf ball grave yard. Keep in mind you are responsible for the flight of your ball and there's no way you're going to reach the green from the tee - so align your shot within the boundaries of the hole!
I think I need to play it.
LOL funny. Now that you've played the good courses you want to see, do you see a new avenue of golf opening, to drink deeply from the well of the misbegotten? I know I want to see these courses. CC of the Poconos? Bear Brook? I'm thinking these are must plays.
-
You know that nobody was paying attention to the details when the tips tell you to aim over the irrigation box...
-
1. The Summit-NLE- Berkeley Springs, WV-Had the worse hole I've ever seen!
2. Sleepy Hollow-Charles town, WV
3. Goose Creek-Leesburg, VA
4. Carper's Valley-NLE- Winchester, VA
5. Cobb's Creek(Olde)-Philadelphia,PA
6. Sea Scape, Nags Head, NC
7. Montclair-dumfries, VA
8. Chesapeake Bay(North East)-North East, MD
9. Bowling Green(North)-Front Royal, VA
10. Ed Oliver-Wilmington, DE
[/quote
Cory, do you mean Slepy Hollow in Hurricane, WV just outside Charleston? Charles Town is over in the eastern panhandle whereas C harleston is in the middle of the state. If so i am surprised to see that Sleepy Hollow on anyone's worst 10 list.
-
My bottom 10...
7) Snooki
How dare you?!? >:(
-
Heck there is a course in the top 10 in NC that i was seriously considering for my list.
-
Matt Peterson ( reply 21) is right on the Crossings at Carlsbad. It is also probably the most expensive GCA disaster ever. I believe the clubhouse cost $40 million and the course $20 million. Last I heard they were going to put another $10 million in to " improve" the course.
-
Heck there is a course in the top 10 in NC that i was seriously considering for my list.
Do tell
-
Sam, congrats on your course record at Heron Lakes!
Just curious, are there either herons or lakes there?
Would it be possible for you to post a picture of the 400 yard par 5 with the 11 yard deep by 4 yards wide green? That actually sounds very cool.
Morro Bay is a fun seaside course with some natural holes thru the pines up and down the hills.
My 2 WORST course nominations are as follows:
UK: The Bracken course at Woodhall Spa by Donald Steele features ugly looking mounds, bunkers with an unattractive 1970s like flair, and florida like lakes in the middle of the fairways. Particualry noteable is the downhill par 3 on the front nine that strongly downwind with a fronting creek. As the Hotchkin is a world top 100 course, is there any golf complex anywhere that claims 2 courses of a greater range of greatness (and crapiness)?
US: The Alotian is a 47 mile endlessly long concrete cartball ride that pretends to channel the spirit of Augusta National except the part about walking the golf course. With its friendly bowled in fairways and over the top clubhouse service (they ask you on the driving range what brand of ball you would like to hit and then give you a bag of your selected brand as practice balls), easily impressed GD panelists might love the Alotian but I would rather walk Palm Valley than play there again. Given the nearly infinite wealth of the founders and therefore likely unlimited property available in Ark, it is a shame that Tom Fazio did not insist on a parcel that would have produced a walkable routing rather than settling for the somewhat scenic (trust me, the views are not the same as Lake Como or Lake Geneva or even Gozzer Ranch for that matter) hillside.
I don't have any pictures, I never saw a heron and there are ponds and maybe a lake or two. Here is the website http://heronlakesgc.com/
-
My bottom 10...
7) Snooki
How dare you?!? >:(
Fyi that list is a top 10 bottoms list.
-
1. The Summit-NLE- Berkeley Springs, WV-Had the worse hole I've ever seen!
2. Sleepy Hollow-Charles town, WV
3. Goose Creek-Leesburg, VA
4. Carper's Valley-NLE- Winchester, VA
5. Cobb's Creek(Olde)-Philadelphia,PA
6. Sea Scape, Nags Head, NC
7. Montclair-dumfries, VA
8. Chesapeake Bay(North East)-North East, MD
9. Bowling Green(North)-Front Royal, VA
10. Ed Oliver-Wilmington, DE
[/quote
Cory, do you mean Slepy Hollow in Hurricane, WV just outside Charleston? Charles Town is over in the eastern panhandle whereas C harleston is in the middle of the state. If so i am surprised to see that Sleepy Hollow on anyone's worst 10 list.
Heck, I'm surprised to see Hurricane WV's Sleepy Hollow on any list. We were members there in the 60's-80's. Once old enough, my father took us out regularly. On the Doak scale, it would be a 3, I think: a perfectly acceptable parkland track.
-
Cory, do you mean Slepy Hollow in Hurricane, WV just outside Charleston? Charles Town is over in the eastern panhandle whereas C harleston is in the middle of the state. If so i am surprised to see that Sleepy Hollow on anyone's worst 10 list.
No I mean the one in Charles Town. The only place I have seen a literal shotgun start. Played in high school tournament there every year.
-
1. Gillette Ridge-Bloomfield CT
2. Cape May National-Cape May New Jersey
4.Lyman Orchards Gary Player Course-Middlefield,CT
That`s as far as I can go without breaking down and crying uncontrollably. There are certainly no shortage. :o
-
Bill Schlulz,
Thank you for your frank commentary about The Alotian. Hopefully, Ran has established a GCA witness protection program.
Bogey
-
Bill Schlulz,
Thank you for your frank commentary about The Alotian. Hopefully, Ran has established a GCA witness protection program.
Bogey
;D ;D ;D
-
2. Cape May National-Cape May New Jersey
good call
-
2. Cape May National-Cape May New Jersey
good call
Has to be one of the most disjointed routings and worst walks in golf. The funniest part is that they bill themselves as "The Natural". :o
-
I have to give this some thought, but these seven certainly feature
BALD HEAD - SC
DUKE - NC
THE BEAR - MI
FOX HILLS - MI
PINE VIEW - MI
WARREN VALLEY EAST & WEST - MI - just because they had the gaul to screw up what would be a good Ross 18 holer
Ciao
-
I've played a combination of ten really lousy courses in the states of Alabama, Georgia, and Florida. Fortunately for me, I've blocked out the most of the names of the courses but unfortunately can still visualize them. I took up the game while living in Atlanta shortly after finishing school and without private course connections or much money ended up on some rough tracks.
-
Does Alotian have more miles of cart paths than Stonehouse? I add Stonehouse to my bottom 3
-
Of the courses mentioned so far, surely "Mahogany Run" has the most fitting moniker for a distastefully conceived golf course.
-
It is interesting that there are no contributions from the UK in this thread so far. While it is true that we do not have many really poor golf courses there are a few...
Let me propose Moorend Golf Course as an example. http://www.moorendgolf.com/index2.htm
In the early 90s the farmer who owns the land decided on a whim that there was potentially more money in golf than in grazing cattle - so he climbed on his tractor and laid out a golf course. I imagine that it probably took him most of the afternoon.
Ironically though, it turned out that he was spot on in his analysis. He rode the crest of the golf wave and for fifteen years made a killing. Starved of any opportunity to play golf at private clubs, working class casual golfers flocked to his course and long queues formed at weekends. He proceeded to build an impressive driving range as an 'add-on' to his business.
Today, the driving range has been hived off to the teaching pro and thrives. The 'course' however, receives almost no maintenance, is a boggy quagmire, and has seen visitor numbers plummet as golfers discover that they are now welcome at any 'proper' course for a green fee hardly any more expensive than that charged at Moorend.
The owner meanwhile, apparantly lives in his French chateau bought on the proceeds of his glory years, and clings onto the hope that the planned relief road to Manchester airport will result in his land being compulsorally purchased...
-
Matt Peterson ( reply 21) is right on the Crossings at Carlsbad. It is also probably the most expensive GCA disaster ever. I believe the clubhouse cost $40 million and the course $20 million. Last I heard they were going to put another $10 million in to " improve" the course.
Well, the clubhouse wasn't terrible.
-
It is interesting that there are no contributions from the UK in this thread so far. While it is true that we do not have many really poor golf courses there are a few...
Let me propose Moorend Golf Course as an example. http://www.moorendgolf.com/index2.htm
In the early 90s the farmer who owns the land decided on a whim that there was potentially more money in golf than in grazing cattle - so he climbed on his tractor and laid out a golf course. I imagine that it probably took him most of the afternoon.
Ironically though, it turned out that he was spot on in his analysis. He rode the crest of the golf wave and for fifteen years made a killing. Starved of any opportunity to play golf at private clubs, working class casual golfers flocked to his course and long queues formed at weekends. He proceeded to build an impressive driving range as an 'add-on' to his business.
Today, the driving range has been hived off to the teaching pro and thrives. The 'course' however, receives almost no maintenance, is a boggy quagmire, and has seen visitor numbers plummet as golfers discover that they are now welcome at any 'proper' course for a green fee hardly any more expensive than that charged at Moorend.
The owner meanwhile, apparantly lives in his French chateau bought on the proceeds of his glory years, and clings onto the hope that the planned relief road to Manchester airport will result in his land being compulsorally purchased...
Duncan
Never you fear! I have a few doozies in England.
BANK HOUSE HOTEL - outside Worcester - on big bog
THE ABBEY HOTEL G&CC - outside Redditch - where to begin
BIDFORD GRANGE - Worcestershire - ironically, one of the closest courses to my house - an old farmer's field - I think the farmer designed the course
Ciao
-
Perhaps I've been lucky or have lower standards but there are only two of approx 180 courses I've played that I would have difficulty dragging myself out to play again, even in a comped match vs. Scarlett Johansen.
These two are toxic.
1
The Vale. Glamorganshire
A hotel in S Wales with 2 courses and I played the Championship one. I've written on here before how awful it is from beginning to end and how laughable the features they advertise are. NO drainage in South Wales. Hundred yard minimum walk to get jsut to the very back tees (which were never used – see below).
It still seems to be there so it is attracting a crowd but it can't be good for golf. I am particularly mad because I went with a really great group and our itinery included wasting a second day playing it.
Two stories.
Having a drink afterwards I said to the bar man that it seemed to be a poor man’s copy of Celtic Manor. He looked around to see no one was watching and said staff had been sacked for uttering that very thought.
Later I met with a guy who had played it on the Europro Tour. He had seen my tirade against it on GCA and said he totally agreed and it was the worst they had to play but they were not allowed to criticise the host courses. It was quickly dropped from a rota that seeks out courses with marketing budgets.
Last I heard the genius “Architeect” who had been on the board of Director,s parted company with them and was planning to build “the longest course in the UK”. 8000 yards+ somewhere in the monmouthsire hills.
2
Top Valley. Essex.
Another ex farmers field. Not enough land so lots of doglegs played up and down between saplings and unmown grass. Result hackers spending hours looking for balls. Around the 10th in total despair I tried to top myself with my driver; but it had been so long since I had last swung a club, I whiffed!
It’s less than a mile from my office and I do use the range. It’s very cheap and there’s never a shortage of players. So what do I know?
3
Royal Lytham
(only part joking ;D )
-
Central London Golf Centre -- Would be a great place to ride motorcross bikes, with all the berms, mounding and containment ridges. Avoid.
-
Heck there is a course in the top 10 in NC that i was seriously considering for my list.
Do tell
Elk River, nice club but the course...
-
I'll call this my "all-overrated" list. I can't say these are the worst golf courses I have played, but they are courses which in my mind are over hyped by the general golfing public.
1. Fiddler's Elbow River Course- Just awful. Routing is horrible, course goes near the interstate. A way overhyped private club which is awful.
2. Reunion Resort Watson- Framing mounds, 20 fairway bunkers per hole, terrible greens. This past year they hosted Big East and the complaints were almost universal.
3. TPC Tampa Bay- Every hole feels the exact same off the tee.
4. Makray Memorial GC, Barrington, IL- Just terrible.
5. Bull Valley GC, McHenry, IL- Tricked up, feels like a fantasy course on Tiger Woods
6. ACE Club, Lafayette Hill, PA- Unwalkable, even though all the holes are relatively close together there are still inexplicably 3-4 walks between holes which are 300+ yards
7. Plymouth CC, Ambler, PA- I have no clue what Flynn was thinking when he designed this course. 2 is one of the most ridiculous holes I have ever played.
8. Newport National, Newport, RI- Well, actually, any Arthur Hills course for that matter. 95% of the ones I have seen are an abomination.
9. Oak Grove, McHenry, IL- Hole 6 requires a shot that 1 in 100 golfers are skilled enough to play around or over a tree in the middle of the fairway. Hole 11, well, just google map it. You'll know which one I'm talking about.
Couldn't get to 10. I'm fortunate in that I don't really play too many awful golf courses. Could have thrown Kemper Lakes in there, opted not to.
-
Brian...would like specifics as to why Newport National is an abomination?
-
Heck there is a course in the top 10 in NC that i was seriously considering for my list.
Do tell
Elk River, nice club but the course...
Greg:
This is too harsh. Elk River is not among the worst 10 courses you have ever played... The first 4 or 5 holes aren't that bad.
Unless you haven't played much?
Best wishes,
Bart ;)
-
Heck there is a course in the top 10 in NC that i was seriously considering for my list.
Do tell
Elk River, nice club but the course...
Greg:
This is too harsh. Elk River is not among the worst 10 courses you have ever played... The first 4 or 5 holes aren't that bad.
Unless you haven't played much?
Best wishes,
Bart ;)
Bart, it did not make my bottom 10, I simply said it received consideration.
-
3 pages and nobody has mentioned The Ranch in San Jose?
(http://www.greenskeeper.org/golf_courses/images/memberphotos/E789B14D-1372-5577-ABFCC4FCBED2E39C.JPG)
-
Sam,
I have played 4 of the courses on your list. I played what was then called Ellington Golf Course in the late 70's when you had to go through the base to get to the course. Go through Air Force security at the gate, and then dodge MP's ticketing everybody exceeding the 25 MPH speed limit. They built a new entrance some time later.
When I played in high school, we played a tournament every year in Kingsville on a course where the chemical plant is just north of town. Hard as a rock and hardly any grass. But there must have been pipelines running under the course because every now and then you would come upon these hardened lava flow-looking pools where something had obviously come up out of the ground. A drive landing on one of those would get a lot of extra yardage.l
-
Sam,
I have played 4 of the courses on your list. I played what was then called Ellington Golf Course in the late 70's when you had to go through the base to get to the course. Go through Air Force security at the gate, and then dodge MP's ticketing everybody exceeding the 25 MPH speed limit. They built a new entrance some time later.
When I played in high school, we played a tournament every year in Kingsville on a course where the chemical plant is just north of town. Hard as a rock and hardly any grass. But there must have been pipelines running under the course because every now and then you would come upon these hardened lava flow-looking pools where something had obviously come up out of the ground. A drive landing on one of those would get a lot of extra yardage.l
Glad to see another Texan chime in, which 4 have you played and what's your bottom 10? Also tell me again where you live and I might be able to put yours together!
-
Sam,
I have played 4 of the courses on your list. I played what was then called Ellington Golf Course in the late 70's when you had to go through the base to get to the course. Go through Air Force security at the gate, and then dodge MP's ticketing everybody exceeding the 25 MPH speed limit. They built a new entrance some time later.
When I played in high school, we played a tournament every year in Kingsville on a course where the chemical plant is just north of town. Hard as a rock and hardly any grass. But there must have been pipelines running under the course because every now and then you would come upon these hardened lava flow-looking pools where something had obviously come up out of the ground. A drive landing on one of those would get a lot of extra yardage.l
Glad to see another Texan chime in, which 4 have you played and what's your bottom 10? Also tell me again where you live and I might be able to put yours together!
I live in the Valley. I've played Pharoah's, Ellington/Pasadena, Bear Creek President's and (obvious by my logo) the A&M golf course. I'm not as harsh on the A&M course. It does have some of that back-and-forth routing you talk about but it also has a few good holes that run along Texas or George Bush and a couple of good par-3's. I would rank Bryan Muni below it.
My bottom 10, in no particular order.
1) Riverview/Fort Brown Municipal in Brownsville. We had a bullet go over us from Matamoros once, and a friend of mine was playing and witnessed a knife fight on the fifth green (and it wasn't golfers fighting).
2) Bryan Muni - Poor conditions and internal OB.
3) Lake Waco
4) Okmulgee (OK) CC
5) Dow Chemical Course, Kingsville (or whatever it was called) that I reference in my original post.
6) I would agree with Ellington/Pasadena.
7) Llano Grande, Mercedes, TX
8) I would agree with Bear Creek President's.
9) Can't remember the name but it was a short course located on S. Main St. south of the loop in Houston, not too far west of Astroworld.
10) Lakeridge CC in Lubbock has some terrible forced shots because of housing.
-
Sam,
I have played 4 of the courses on your list. I played what was then called Ellington Golf Course in the late 70's when you had to go through the base to get to the course. Go through Air Force security at the gate, and then dodge MP's ticketing everybody exceeding the 25 MPH speed limit. They built a new entrance some time later.
When I played in high school, we played a tournament every year in Kingsville on a course where the chemical plant is just north of town. Hard as a rock and hardly any grass. But there must have been pipelines running under the course because every now and then you would come upon these hardened lava flow-looking pools where something had obviously come up out of the ground. A drive landing on one of those would get a lot of extra yardage.l
Glad to see another Texan chime in, which 4 have you played and what's your bottom 10? Also tell me again where you live and I might be able to put yours together!
I live in the Valley. I've played Pharoah's, Ellington/Pasadena, Bear Creek President's and (obvious by my logo) the A&M golf course. I'm not as harsh on the A&M course. It does have some of that back-and-forth routing you talk about but it also has a few good holes that run along Texas or George Bush and a couple of good par-3's. I would rank Bryan Muni below it.
My bottom 10, in no particular order.
1) Riverview/Fort Brown Municipal in Brownsville. We had a bullet go over us from Matamoros once, and a friend of mine was playing and witnessed a knife fight on the fifth green (and it wasn't golfers fighting).
2) Bryan Muni - Poor conditions and internal OB.
3) Lake Waco
4) Okmulgee (OK) CC
5) Dow Chemical Course, Kingsville (or whatever it was called) that I reference in my original post.
6) I would agree with Ellington/Pasadena.
7) Llano Grande, Mercedes, TX
8) I would agree with Bear Creek President's.
9) Can't remember the name but it was a short course located on S. Main St. south of the loop in Houston, not too far west of Astroworld.
10) Lakeridge CC in Lubbock has some terrible forced shots because of housing.
Bryan Muni is the only thing in Brazos Valley I haven't played. I know the big announcement was this week that they are going to redo A&M. I haven't played Lake Waco, is that the same course as Heather Run or something like that? I know the little course you're talking about on S. Main, it was next to a range. Haven't been over there in a few years but the range is still there.
Have you played Oso or Gabe Lozano? Both were considered on my top 10 but I love Oso so I couldn't do it. If we nominate worst golf cities in America can we through Corpus in the mix?
-
I had actually given some thought to putting Oso on the list. Played high school tournaments there.
I played Lake Waco once so don't know if it's been renamed. The one thing I do remember most is that it is the first place I bought a sleeve of Pro-V1's. They had just come out and it was the first place I saw them. That will tell you how long ago I played there.
-
I had actually given some thought to putting Oso on the list. Played high school tournaments there.
I played Lake Waco once so don't know if it's been renamed. The one thing I do remember most is that it is the first place I bought a sleeve of Pro-V1's. They had just come out and it was the first place I saw them. That will tell you how long ago I played there.
I'd put Lozano on the list first. I have a neat piece of Oso history, in 1945 there was a 4 ball match with Hogan/Snead/Nelson/Demaret, they had the scorecard hanging in the shop, I have a great replica of it.
-
I had actually given some thought to putting Oso on the list. Played high school tournaments there.
I played Lake Waco once so don't know if it's been renamed. The one thing I do remember most is that it is the first place I bought a sleeve of Pro-V1's. They had just come out and it was the first place I saw them. That will tell you how long ago I played there.
I'd put Lozano on the list first. I have a neat piece of Oso history, in 1945 there was a 4 ball match with Hogan/Snead/Nelson/Demaret, they had the scorecard hanging in the shop, I have a great replica of it.
Never played Lozano so can't comment on that. And you're right, for a city that could have some good courses, Corpus Christi seems to be lacking. Although Padre Island is pretty good, and I've heard good things about Newport Dunes just north of Corpus.
Glad to hear they're going to re-do the A&M course. Is it contracted out or are they going to do it in-house, so to speak? With great landscape design and agronomy programs there's no reason it shouldn't be a better facility.
-
I had actually given some thought to putting Oso on the list. Played high school tournaments there.
I played Lake Waco once so don't know if it's been renamed. The one thing I do remember most is that it is the first place I bought a sleeve of Pro-V1's. They had just come out and it was the first place I saw them. That will tell you how long ago I played there.
I'd put Lozano on the list first. I have a neat piece of Oso history, in 1945 there was a 4 ball match with Hogan/Snead/Nelson/Demaret, they had the scorecard hanging in the shop, I have a great replica of it.
Never played Lozano so can't comment on that. And you're right, for a city that could have some good courses, Corpus Christi seems to be lacking. Although Padre Island is pretty good, and I've heard good things about Newport Dunes just north of Corpus.
Glad to hear they're going to re-do the A&M course. Is it contracted out or are they going to do it in-house, so to speak? With great landscape design and agronomy programs there's no reason it shouldn't be a better facility.
We had a membership at Padre Isles so I played it on vacation, it's a fun course. I still haven't played Newport Dunes, actually planning on going down there in October. I don't know who is going to do the work at A&M, I heard a rumor that a member of GCA had drawn up some plans.
-
Sam,you have to be an SEC person to comment on the A and M course.Sorry but nobody in Big 12 country will be allowed an opinion.A few of my A and M friends still talk to me, but it is surface conversation strained by the divorce of our institutions.
-
Sam,you have to be an SEC person to comment on the A and M course.Sorry but nobody in Big 12 country will be allowed an opinion.A few of my A and M friends still talk to me, but it is surface conversation strained by the divorce of our institutions.
Sorry, let me just say Dixie Chicken sucks and Aggie girls are fat and easy.
Are we okay now?
-
Sam,you have to be an SEC person to comment on the A and M course.Sorry but nobody in Big 12 country will be allowed an opinion.A few of my A and M friends still talk to me, but it is surface conversation strained by the divorce of our institutions.
Sorry, let me just say Dixie Chicken sucks and Aggie girls are fat and easy.
Are we okay now?
Whoa! Seriously off-track now and makes me call into question your other opinions.
Back on track, do any of the SEC schools have good on-campus golf courses or school-owned courses?
-
Sam,you have to be an SEC person to comment on the A and M course.Sorry but nobody in Big 12 country will be allowed an opinion.A few of my A and M friends still talk to me, but it is surface conversation strained by the divorce of our institutions.
Sorry, let me just say Dixie Chicken sucks and Aggie girls are fat and easy.
Are we okay now?
Whoa! Seriously off-track now and makes me call into question your other opinions.
Back on track, do any of the SEC schools have good on-campus golf courses or school-owned courses?
LSU has a campus course that I've not played, it's across the street from Tiger Stadium and kind of behind Alex Box, it doesn't look like much from the road but I could be wrong. The University Club is underwhelming, it's their version of Traditions. The practice facilities are awesome but the course leaves a lot to be desired. The front 9 might have the two worst par 5's ever on a decent course. I have not played anything else at any SEC schools.
What are your thoughts on Traditions? And Dixie Chicken and Northgate really is one of the most overrated places ever, sorry.
-
The RTG trail courses at Auburn are pretty good.Not sure if they treat it as the schools course,but worth a play if you are going to a game.
-
Brian...would like specifics as to why Newport National is an abomination?
2-3 holes where the easier play down the tee is to hit it into the wrong fairway and a 260 yard par-3 with no margin for error left or right... to start
-
Surprised nobody mentioned Glenmoor CC when discussing Denver area courses. Here is my summary from a 2003 thread:
"One course that could get blown up is Glenmoor CC here in Denver, a Perry Dye upscale housing course monstrosity that's unplayable for the majority of the members and unfun for the rest."
TPC Eagle Trace in Coral Springs, Florida also makes my list. I could say the same thing as above about that course except it doesn't have the same claustrophobic housing element.
-
Surprised nobody mentioned Glenmoor CC when discussing Denver area courses. Here is my summary from a 2003 thread:
"One course that could get blown up is Glenmoor CC here in Denver, a Perry Dye upscale housing course monstrosity that's unplayable for the majority of the members and unfun for the rest."
TPC Eagle Trace in Coral Springs, Florida also makes my list. I could say the same thing as above about that course except it doesn't have the same claustrophobic housing element.
I only played Glenmoor once but thought it could be a lot of fun as a true match play course. I thought most of the holes were fun, just really overly severe and definitely not a place where you'd want to play a lot of stroke play golf.
-
Surprised nobody mentioned Glenmoor CC when discussing Denver area courses. Here is my summary from a 2003 thread:
"One course that could get blown up is Glenmoor CC here in Denver, a Perry Dye upscale housing course monstrosity that's unplayable for the majority of the members and unfun for the rest."
TPC Eagle Trace in Coral Springs, Florida also makes my list. I could say the same thing as above about that course except it doesn't have the same claustrophobic housing element.
Thanks for reminding me - Eagle Trace has issues but TPC Heron Bay down the road is near the top of the Bottom 10, truly horrible.
-
Brian...would like specifics as to why Newport National is an abomination?
2-3 holes where the easier play down the tee is to hit it into the wrong fairway and a 260 yard par-3 with no margin for error left or right... to start
Brian...thanks for the response. You certainly play a game with which I am not familiar. The 16th plays 253 from the back tees and 212 from the gold tees. It is 182 from the green tees. It is an excellent par 3, but the green is too narrow for the length of the hole for my game. The solution is an easy one as it is with any hole that is too long for your game. Move up!!! I play the green tee on the 16th and perhaps you should play the gold ;D
As to hitting the ball into another fairway. That had never, ever entered my mind and I have played NN about 20 times. But when a good drive is 220 or so I play a different game. I suspect the holes you are referring to are 12 and 15. Not a huge advantage if any I think, but I will take note the next time I play there. Perhaps you would prefer they plant trees to guard against that strategy.
And that is why I think NN is among the best, if not the best, public in New England. It offers options with wide fairways. The fairways have tons of movement. Greens have excellent contour and the green surrounds with chipping areas are a delight. Conditions are excellent and it is typically firm.
I am a huge fan and others have also posted positively about NN. I also believe that Drew Rogers, an associate of Mr. Hills did most of the design work.
You clearly play superb golf courses when NN is one of the worst you have seen.
-
Brian...thanks for the response. You certainly play a game with which I am not familiar. The 16th plays 253 from the back tees and 212 from the gold tees. It is 182 from the green tees. It is an excellent par 3, but the green is too narrow for the length of the hole for my game. The solution is an easy one as it is with any hole that is too long for your game. Move up!!! I play the green tee on the 16th and perhaps you should play the gold ;D
Cliff, is the onus really on the player to change tees mid-round when a single hole is just too severe? If a player has the game to play the back tees, but a course has a single egregiously unplayable hole from the tips, is that really not poor design? I haven't played Newport National, but I have played a Hills course with a 208 yard island par 3 and a green about half the size of the 17th at Sawgrass. I can hit the shot 19 times out of 20 if I scoot up to the 100 yard tees, but the hole is still a load of crap as it's designed.
I design software workflows for doctors for a living. If I come up with a workflow that requires extensive workarounds, I'm getting fired even if the doctors can still hack their way around and figure out a way to handle it.
-
Jason....Is it really poor design if the length of the hole is too long? If it is an otherwise excellent hole from a different tee box, is it hence a poor hole from another tee box? I think not. It may be poor judgement on the part of the architect for choosing the wrong length, but I would not call that poor design.
Would any of the great holes of golf be poor design if they were longer. Thinking 7 at PB or 12 at ANGC. If they played 200 yards it would be a joke. Poor design? I think not. Poor tee placement, absolutely. Easily remediable, though. Poor design cannot be easily remediated.
Frankly, to me the onus is on the course. I don't believe they must put the tee exactly where the designer intended. Hence NN imho should simply move the tees up. Otherwise, if enjoyment is the purpose of the game it behooves the player to move up or live with it being a very difficult hole.
-
Jason....Is it really poor design if the length of the hole is too long? If it is an otherwise excellent hole from a different tee box, is it hence a poor hole from another tee box? I think not. It may be poor judgement on the part of the architect for choosing the wrong length, but I would not call that poor design.
Would any of the great holes of golf be poor design if they were longer. Thinking 7 at PB or 12 at ANGC. If they played 200 yards it would be a joke. Poor design? I think not. Poor tee placement, absolutely. Easily remediable, though. Poor design cannot be easily remediated.
Frankly, to me the onus is on the course. I don't believe they must put the tee exactly where the designer intended. Hence NN imho should simply move the tees up. Otherwise, if enjoyment is the purpose of the game it behooves the player to move up or live with it being a very difficult hole.
To suggest that tee placement isn't an integral part of golf course design seems pretty crazy to me. Sure, the course could just choose to ignore the back one/two/three tee boxes, but surely if that's necessary it's reflective that the hole as designed wasn't conceived very well.
-
Cliff,
The holes in question are 8 and 15. 8 becomes a 520 yard straightaway par-5 if you play it to the 7th fairway, right of that forest. Taller trees right of the tee would probably fix that pretty easily. 15 is interesting because if you play it down 14 fairway it is a wide open tee shot, and a way better angle to the green. Conversely, if you play 15 down the correct fairway, you have a tight drive to a fairway pinched by bunkers and a bad angle into a firm green.
As far as 16, this is not the first time I have seen an Arthur Hills course with a par-3 that was simply too long to be considered a good hole. #5 at Stonewall Orchard rings a bell. I played the course in competition and to their credit they did have the tee moved up, but it was almost ridiculous from there even, particularly because it played into a ~30 mph wind and I found myself hitting 3-wood or even driver. I found myself looking back at the championship tee and thinking I wouldn't have been able to reach the green! Now if I were playing the course in a casual round, there is absolutely no chance I would move up a tee box to play the hole.
I'll agree that there are some great holes at NN but unfortunately for me a couple holes are enough to make it a stand out as "overrated" in my mind.
-
Brian..I don't want to hijack this thread into a NN discussion so just a quick response. I did mean 15 and not 18 in my reply. Perhaps this showcases how courses setup very differently from different tees and for different handicaps. I'm not sure that 8 is a huge advantage going to 7 but you would no better than I. Again, as for me I believe NN to be an absolutely excellent public course.
-
I've played some bad golf courses over the years. Some that stick out:
3. Old Orchard Golf Course, Arlington Heights, IL. Too narrow, tree infested. Plus they dye the ponds blue, like Ty-Dee-Bowl. WTF?
A little surprised to see this one--it's certainly nothing great, but a for quick round while killing a few hours before a flight at O'Hare, I felt like I got my $35 worth. I only had a couple of quibbles: It wasn't clear for a first-timer what was the distance to clear/lay-up the Ty-Dee bowl on 10, and the greens on the forced carry par threes wouldn't hold what seemed like well-struck shots (that would have held on the par 4/5 holes.)
-
Jason....Is it really poor design if the length of the hole is too long? If it is an otherwise excellent hole from a different tee box, is it hence a poor hole from another tee box? I think not. It may be poor judgement on the part of the architect for choosing the wrong length, but I would not call that poor design.
Would any of the great holes of golf be poor design if they were longer. Thinking 7 at PB or 12 at ANGC. If they played 200 yards it would be a joke. Poor design? I think not. Poor tee placement, absolutely. Easily remediable, though. Poor design cannot be easily remediated.
Frankly, to me the onus is on the course. I don't believe they must put the tee exactly where the designer intended. Hence NN imho should simply move the tees up. Otherwise, if enjoyment is the purpose of the game it behooves the player to move up or live with it being a very difficult hole.
To suggest that tee placement isn't an integral part of golf course design seems pretty crazy to me. Sure, the course could just choose to ignore the back one/two/three tee boxes, but surely if that's necessary it's reflective that the hole as designed wasn't conceived very well.
I might have to revise my list. None of the courses I listed are actually bad design. They all just have the tees, greens, and fairways in the wrong spots.
-
I just remembered the Salt Creek course in Elk Grove. Does that thing even still exist?
As of last winter it did. I go to the TopGolf that is nextdoor to drink beer and hit balls in the winter.
Also, amen on 7 Bridges. God I hate that course.
-
I am, of course biased, but Bear Brook is so well thought of on this thread hole, descriptions were posted and several people were so interested they're actually going to play the course.
I can assure all it will live up to and exceed all of your demented expectations.
I actually forgot about the 700 yard par 6. The island green following hole is rather well done.
-
To all those in northeast Ohio, other than driving range courses that just allow you to smack a ball around, Blue Heron is the clear winner. Just a horrendous design. Used to be maintained well, but was a horrible golf course.
-
Jason....Is it really poor design if the length of the hole is too long? .....
not to improperly paraphrase your quote ( ;) ), but if someone can build a risk/reward short par 4 and get away with it, is anyone familiar with a 'hard birdie / easy par' long par 3 that may be somewhat long and difficult to hold for an average shot, but comes with a fairway or layup spot where you are left with a short pitch into a small green that slants toward you from that angle and gives an easy chance for an up and down?
some may, for sure, look down on laying up and getting up and down - but it worked for david toms for one to get his major. would certainly be a different type of par 3.
-
Bad memories....
1. Sabal Palm Golf Club (Tamarac, Fla.)
2. Arrowhead Golf Club (Davie, Fla.)
3. Arboretum Golf Course (Buffalo Grove, Ill.)
4. New Paltz Golf Course (New Paltz, NY)
5. Grand Palms (Pembroke Pines, Fla.)
6. TPC Eagle Trace (Coral Springs, Fla.)
7. Stonewall Orchard Golf Club (Grayslake, Ill.)
8. Costa del Sol (Miami, Fla.)
9. Makray Memorial (nee Thunderbird) GC (Barrington, Ill.)
10. Indiana Univ. Golf Course (Bloomington, Ind.)
-
Bad memories....
10. Indiana Univ. Golf Course (Bloomington, Ind.)
What you don't like 13 par 4s and 3 pars threes all of the same length? That back nine gets monotonous. I've played worse, but given the quality of some of the other Big Ten schools's courses I wish IU could upgrade their course some.