Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Ash Towe on June 25, 2012, 03:15:44 PM
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Golf Australia magazine just published the following list. Not sure who or how they selected the courses.
1 Cape Kidnappers
2 Kinloch
3 Paraparumu
4 Jacks Point
5 Kauri Cliffs
6 Wairakei
7The Hills
8 Pegasus golf Club
9 Millbrook
10 Titirangi
11 Royal Auckland
12Carrington
13Gulf Harbour
14 Clearwater
15 Christchurch
16 Arrowtown
17 Hastings
18 New Plymouth
19 Royal Wellington
20 Oreti Sands
21 Muriwai
22 Hamilton
23 Poverty Bay
24 Queenstown
25 Terrace Downs
It is a good list. There will be arguments about the positioning of the courses, as you would expect but I cannot think of any serious omissions.
If we take Kauri Cliffs as the beginning of new developments in this country, then there are 9 courses built since then on the list.
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Ash:
What is Pegasus Golf Club? Something new, or a re-branding of something old?
I had a spare day on my trip last month and went to see Kaitaia and to walk Titirangi again [for the first time since 1988]. Kaitaia wasn't as good as I'd hoped, but I have a hard time thinking there are 25 better courses in N.Z. Or that Titirangi really belongs down at #10 -- I was generally impressed with the work that has been done there. I meant to go see Kinloch this time, too, but the forecast was for very chilly weather, so I put that off for a future visit.
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Tom,
Pegasus is a new building development/community built just outside Christchurch. The golf club/sports facilities are a focal point I believe. Not been there myself. The course has been used for the NZ Ladies Open for the last 2 years.
I agree about Titirangi being to low at 10.
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How do these lads come up with this stuff? A token trip across the Tasman to see a handful of courses and voila...
Pegasus is not a better golf course than Titirangi. http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/blogs/the-golf-nut/5317842/Golf-in-Christchurch-can-we-do-better
And for GCA folks, Arrowtown and Oreti are at least 10 spots too low.
Thanks for posting Ash - IM for a game if you're up for it yet.
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New Zealanders,
Am off to Queenstown next year and am thinking of the following golf itinery:
36 Jacks point
36 Arrowtown
27 Millbrook
Any comment? Is it worth playing Queenstown, or checking out The Hills? Is 36 at Jacks Point or Arrowtown overkill? Anything else within reach worth checking out.
cheers,
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Kauri Cliffs at 5 doesn't jive with its World Ranking, but that is likely due to the fact that International rankers will likely go to Kauri ahead of anywhere else in the country, excepting CK. I have only played KC and CK in NZ and I must say that they are both fantastic golf experiences and also extremely top notch hotels.
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David,
If budget allows you should see The Hills as well - it is right there.
36 at Arrowtown is definitely not overkill. It's easily done too - if you are there in summer you can start after dinner (say, 6 or 7pm) and it's easy enough to play in 2.5 hours.
I'm not sure of your tastes, but personally my favourite course in the area is Oreti Sands - the issue is that it is a 2 hour drive (and doesn't really have grass on all the fairways).
IM me closer to the time. I saw KP and Pup in Queenstown this summer.
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I'm not sure of your tastes, but personally my favourite course in the area is Oreti Sands - the issue is that it is a 2 hour drive (and doesn't really have grass on all the fairways).
Thanks Michael, I will try to make the effort to get down to Oreti sands.
What's the deal with Millbrook? Should all 27 holes be played or is one 9 wore than the other 2?
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One of the better lists in a perverse kind of way - obviously you can always debate the top 5. Hamilton 15+ places too low and Titirangi class and definitely worthy of higher. Good to see Kinloch up there. Poverty Bay, wonderful land and holes that would put some of those higher to shame. Pegasus, can anyone whos played comment?
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Oreti way too low. That is such a quality layout on wonderful land. Gee I would be polite saying thst there is 10 courses listed that would be better. NZs unique perhaps in the fact that conditioning seems to have a larger percentage influence than pure layouts in a country that operates on very minimal budgets.
Harewood? Have heard great things. Cromwell?
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Leo, enjoy your passion with the double post.
Harewood and Cromwell should both be on the list, yes.
I already passed comment on Pegasus and I'll leave it at that!
David - just play 18 at Millbrook and then play 18 at Arrowtown.
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I've played 3 of the top 6 and even they are not in my order. Needless to say I haven't played the ones that need a mortgage to play!
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Let me first say, in my visit to NZ, the land there is second to none for great golf courses. Even the small lesser known courses looked like a joy to play, sadly being my honeymoon, I couldn't talk the wife into playing every day!
My only thought, is that I wonder if Kauri Cliffs was presented in a more fast and firm condition it may even be thought of higher around the world?
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1 Cape Kidnappers
2 Kinloch
3 Paraparumu
4 Jacks Point
5 Kauri Cliffs
6 Wairakei
7The Hills
8 Pegasus golf Club
9 Millbrook
10 Titirangi
11 Royal Auckland
12Carrington
13Gulf Harbour
14 Clearwater
15 Christchurch
16 Arrowtown
17 Hastings
18 New Plymouth
19 Royal Wellington
20 Oreti Sands
21 Muriwai
22 Hamilton
23 Poverty Bay
24 Queenstown
25 Terrace Downs
Ash
My Top5 would probably read
Cape Kidnappers
Paraparaumu Beach
Kinloch
Jacks Point
Kauri Cliffs
I think Harewood should be in the mix ?
For mine Arrowtown is too low - I'd play there over The Hills any day of the week
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New Zealanders,
Am off to Queenstown next year and am thinking of the following golf itinery:
36 Jacks point
36 Arrowtown
27 Millbrook
Any comment? Is it worth playing Queenstown, or checking out The Hills? Is 36 at Jacks Point or Arrowtown overkill? Anything else within reach worth checking out.
cheers,
David
Am not a NZer but would like to comment ;)
You'll have fun at Arrowtown - 36 is not overkill same too for Jack's Point
Kelvin Heights (Queenstown) has an amazing location - pity what I saw of it's holes don't seem to match the setting
Am not sure of the 27 at Millbrook - I think you would be dissappointed with the Arrow 9
I will do a thread on The Hills soon - stay tuned
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Kevin,
Good to have you back.
I like your top five. Para at 2 is right.
Not sure about Jacks Point over KC.
Not been to Harewood.
Arrowtown is great, best fun course I have played in NZ and almost anywhere else.
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I have just seen this and have a couple of quick comments.
Harewood and cromwell should certainly both be on that list.
Arrowtown should be much higher.
Dave, 36 at arrowtown is highly recommended. I would personally be inclined to play 18 at jacks point and then head to cromwell (about 1hour by car) for a round. Recent redevelopment work there has strengthened what was already a very good course.
Hopefully Scott Macpherson sees this and posts his thoughts.
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New Zealanders,
Am off to Queenstown next year and am thinking of the following golf itinery:
36 Jacks point
36 Arrowtown
27 Millbrook
Any comment? Is it worth playing Queenstown, or checking out The Hills? Is 36 at Jacks Point or Arrowtown overkill? Anything else within reach worth checking out.
cheers,
David
Am not a NZer but would like to comment ;)
You'll have fun at Arrowtown - 36 is not overkill same too for Jack's Point
Kelvin Heights (Queenstown) has an amazing location - pity what I saw of it's holes don't seem to match the setting
Am not sure of the 27 at Millbrook - I think you would be dissappointed with the Arrow 9
I will do a thread on The Hills soon - stay tuned
Kev, are you just teasing or are you seriously threatening some kiwi course reviews from your trip?
The 17 inch putt on 13 is still haunting me mate haha!
What do you think Pup or are you still deliberating over the 10th hole at Kauri?
Ash, any idea how this list was compiled (purely for interest). Was it a reporters trip to NZ, a panel, a summary from other lists or simply Pup ghost wrting?
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Ash - Royal Wellington at #19 does not say much for the depth of courses in NZ. RW is a nice members course, but nothing special. when I was there last year they had grand plans for a major redo of the course. Has that work been done? Is that reflected in the ratings?
Titirangi is really good. I'm glad to learn they are spiffing it up. It was in VERY average condition when I was there last March.
Wairakei was a real surprise for me. It was fantastic fun with just the right mix of challenge. Of the 30+ rounds I played on my tour the day at Wairakei was the only one I took a cart... and it was a pleasure to do so!!! I was amazed by the fence surrounding the place to keep the animals out. I've never seen anything like that before.
I love saying Wairakei and Titirangi. ;D
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Michael,
I agree with you regarding the depth of NZ courses. It was a whole lot worse pre Julian Robertson and Kauri Cliffs.
Regarding Royal Wellington, Scott MacPherson is the person to ask re the developments there.
Titirangi has improved so much. The issue with conditioning is a lot to do with money. They need more members. Last year you could join and there was no entry fee.
Wairakei is a good course and perceived as great value. It was seen as the most popular course in NZ, not to be confused with the best.
Glad you had fun with pronunciations.
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Ash,
How can the best course - I am assuming Titirangi is still the best course - in the biggest city in the country be struggling?
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I have often wondered the same thing re: Titirangi. It doesn't make much sense on the surface.
Maybe the social cache attached with inferior courses sees them remain healthier than they might otherwise.
MM
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Mike/Matthew,
There is no doubt that Titirangi is the best course in Auckland and by some considerable margin. I would not say its struggling but rather there is no spare cash. However it is not situated in a particularly affluent area. In fact many of the members travel across the city to play there. Unfortunately not enough to fill the membership as of last year.
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Ash,
How can the best course - I am assuming Titirangi is still the best course - in the biggest city in the country be struggling?
Therein lies the crisis facing golf in nz at the moment. The market places little value on the best club courses and for the non club courses, they simply serve as loss leaders for other aspects of their wider business (realestate or accomodation). The majority of clubs in NZ are technically insolvent, they struggle to cover depreciation, they have massive amounts of debt and they simply have eaten the family silver over the last 20 years against a climate of falling memberships and revenue. For most, gaming grants (pokie machine funding) and landsales are delaying the inevitable but even those options are fast becoming exhausted. I know of atleast 3 high profile clubs in Auckland that have either sold or are exploring selling their courses to realestate development in the exhange for new sites positioned further out of suburbia with promises of fresh starts and zero debt. Kind of like the greenkeeper that wants to build new usga spec poa free bentgrass greens but still refuses to accept that over watering and over fertilising are contributing factors to what he has now.
Golf in NZ is low yeilding, over represented by courses with diminishing demand.
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Mike: wrong to assume Titirangi is the best course. It's great but Pram is much better.
Kiwis like manicured stuff. Some say we're 20 years behind the western world. I'd suggest we watch too much Monday night PGA Tour highlights.
RW is mid Renovation but I'd be surprised if it moves too much (although you never know with these 'lists').
Leo, good rant. I'd suspect the list was done by the editorial guys at the magazine with the input of some of their colleagues...
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I am really surprised Chisholm Park in Dunedin does not come up in these lists or discussions. It has ocean views, links conditions, and completely wild ground for golf. I have heard criticisms that it is a bit short and perhaps the overall conditioning is not "top 25 material" (they only have 2 green keepers last I heard), but Chisholm park easily sits in the top 25.
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Hamilton most underated track in NZ. It is seriously good design that needs little more than a chainsaw for it to be great. Top 5 eh Goldy.
Ive played 9 of the top 10, 19 of the top 25 and walked 4 others. Yet to play or see Harewood or Cromwell but their marketing consultant, Grant Saunders, believes they are worthy of inclusion.
Others for consideration would be Balmacewn (Otago GC) and Chisholm (great course which certainly doesnt play short when that wind blows - which is does often) which should both definately be in there with Wanganui and possibly Rotorua there and there abouts. Two links tracks, Nelson and Mahia which Goldys sidekick JP raves about are on my list to play.
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Hi Guys,
Thanks for inviting me into this thread. I obviously have some vested interests in this topic so was going to stay out for fear of perceived bias. But I am sure most of you know me well enough that you know I am generally very objective. So here is my top 25;
#1 Cape Kidnappers
#2 Paraparaumu Beach*
#3 Kauri Cliffs
#4 Titirangi
#5 Millbrook
#6 Wairakei
#7 The Hills
#8 Kinlock
#9 Oreti Sands
#10 Gulf Harbour
#11 Jack's Point
#12 Arrowtown
#13 Harewood
#14 Pegasus
#15 Otago GC
#16 Christchurch
#17 Chisholm Park
#18 Royal Auckland
#19 Cromwell
#20 Manawatu
#21 Royal Wellington (moving up soon!!)
#22 Napier GC
#23 Russley
#24 Nga Motu (New Plymouth)
#25 The Grange
(NB- Carrington is the only course I have not been to that may move into this list)
* I have great affection for PBGC, but wonder how long it will stay at this position? It is under threat from other very good courses with greater length and infrastructure for holding bigger events. It will always be one of the great members course though.
That the Golf Aussie boys have omitted Harewood and Cromwell is both a surprise and suggests to me they may not have visited them recently.
Royal Wellington is in the process of finishing the last 4 holes on the first 18. The seeding of these holes and about 3 others will happen in maybe Sept and the new 18 holes should be open in Feb 2013. At that point I expect the course will easily move into the Top 10, and possibly at 4 or 5. Those who harbour memories of the old layout should expect a big surprise with the new layout and design style.
Pegasus was a course I played this year and really enjoyed. Lots of fun holes, particularly on the front, and a nice experience.
It is my impression that for years there were really only about 5 decent courses in NZ and now there are about 15 which are very good, and a few world class. In other words the depth has really improved. This could be called the 'Robertson effect'. As has been eluded too here, there is quite a gap in the operating budgets of these courses – even of those in the Top 5. The green fees vary considerably too. For me perhaps a more interesting ranking would be value of money. Oreti, Harewood, PBGC, Chisholm and Nga Motu may top that list, and Kidnappers, Jacks, Gulf Harbour, Kauri Cliffs etc drop down some distance.
NZ is lucky to be in a renaissance period (no pun on Tom's work implied) with the new and renovated golf courses. There is now less need for kiwis to travel overseas for good golf. Indeed, NZ is now becoming a golf destination (look at what is happening in Queenstown).
It is just my hope that all the golf course design and renovation work done is NZ is good (like that done at Titirangi), because a rising tide floats all boats. We can't afford to have clubs waste money wasted on poor design (e.g the work on the 18th tees at PBGC for Tiger's visit that has now been abandoned). It only eats away at the fabric of confidence that Clubs and Committees need to ensure positive decisions are made to keep their courses in good shape.
Scott
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Kev, are you just teasing or are you seriously threatening some kiwi course reviews from your trip?
The 17 inch putt on 13 is still haunting me mate haha!
What do you think Pup or are you still deliberating over the 10th hole at Kauri?
Ash, any idea how this list was compiled (purely for interest). Was it a reporters trip to NZ, a panel, a summary from other lists or simply Pup ghost wrting?
Leo
Since returning from NZ - I have been bogged down with work
I will be doing some reviews and it seems will need to take over from Pup in the Kauri thread to help finish it off.
I still go over our match at PBGC - reminds me of how great match-play is ;D
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Leo, Nelson is a cool little track. Nothing mind-blowing, but understated, and fun, on a good site. You'll be pleased you visited.
MM
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I have played/walked the top 17
Glad to see Kinloch is up the list. Great course, I really hope the new owner puts some cash in.
Cape is safe at No1.
Carrington is a little underrated. If only they had constructed the greens better at the start.
Hills may jump up the list as it gets more established.
Wairakei is the most fun course to play.
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Kevin,
I believe the list was compiled by Brendan James, editor of Golf Australia Magazine. I think it was stated that he had played all the courses.
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Dane,
Wairakei is more fun to play that Paraparaumu,Kidnappers or Arrowtown? I only walked it (the day Michael Campbell won the US Open) but it did not look to be in the same league as the other three for fun. Nor Titirangi but I have not seen that for 20 years.
It is hard to imagine anything down there being more fun than Arrowtown.
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Wairakei can be a killer off the back tees or a happy hack off the white.
I'm not sure when they did the all upgrades with the creeks at Wairakei. Maybe it was after Campbells win.
Arrowtown is great. I have a green sown in the Arrowtown Colonial Bentgrass here in Auckland.
But theres something about Wairakei
(http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/641/30168724270837578078216.jpg)
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I have played or am quite familiar with 16 on the list and have visited a couple of the others.
For me, Gulf Harbour, Clearwater and Terrace Downs would not make my list. Carrington (I would have to see it again to decide for sure) wouldnt be on there either.
Oreti, Arrowtown and Hamilton would be top ten at the expense of Pegasus, The Hills and Wairakei.
Interesting to see on Scotts list Manawatu golf club. Having just played there a couple of weeks ago, there is certainly some great natural movement going on. It would probably benefit from a tree removal program (it would most likely have to be in the form of a cyclone for it to actually happen).
Hopefully Leo sees this and is kind enough to post a couple of photos of a little course called Marton golf club. Great piece of land with some really good green sites. In particular the par 3 3rd. (I know you got a pic of that one Leo). As per most NZ courses, trees now dominate but hopefully some day they will see the land for how good it is and embrace it.
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Its a shame but for many of the Club courses on that list, the sheer choking of the trees just distract from any architectural merit they might contain. The Grange and Manawatu are two that come to mind on Scotts list that in trying to assess them ive just found really hard to decipher the "trees from the wood" so to speak. Vegetation management second biggest problem facing nz clubs after the failure to cover depreciation..... for mine anyway.
Grant, Marton had some wonderful land and infinite potential. An excess of trees dumbed it down enormously but thats simply an education thing facing us all.
The Par 3 you were referring to
(http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww35/bunkersb/Marton1.jpg)
(http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww35/bunkersb/Marton2.jpg)
(http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww35/bunkersb/Marton3.jpg)
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I'm surprised no one has mentioned Kaitaia at all ... maybe no one bothers to go up there to see it.
I made the trip on my last visit down there. It wasn't a great course, but it has one very good stretch of holes, and enough links spirit that it's hard to imagine there are 25 better courses in N.Z.
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Haven't played Kaitaia in ten years but I remember it being a strong course. There is a par 3 that can be either PW, 5 iron or 3 wood depending on the wind
Not many people get up that far Tom. Some good rural courses in Northland but the climate isn't kind to keeping grass alive during the summer.
Kerikeri has the best short par 3 in the country, The 13th hole.
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I haven't been to Kaitaia, it's on my list.
The other course that is top 25 is Otaki. Near PBGC and has some similar landforms.
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I haven't been to Kaitaia. I have played all the courses on the Kapiti Coast a lot (that's where I grew up) and Waikanae, Otaki, Levin, Foxton, Rangitikei all have holes, or sequences of holes, of interest. They all have areas where sand is the predominant soil type and call feel very 'links-like' to play. Rangitikei is the one I think may have the most potential...but I haven't been there in 10 years, so things may have changed.
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I have played Kaitaia a number of years ago. From memory, it has some very good holes and sits upon a solid piece of land.
Unfortunately, due to the climate and resources, the only grass which can survive for most of the year is Kikuyu. While Kikiuyu can provide good playing conditions under intensive management, Kaitaia Golf Club arent positioned to be able to implement such a program. As a result, the course doesnt play in a manner which the land and weather conditions lend themselves to. It is very difficult to play running shots and utilise bounce as determined by the wind with the "stickey" nature of kikuyu. I think it was for this reason that the course wasnt included in the recent book covering the Links courses of the world (Scott can hopefully confirm this).
It is not dissimilar to Oreti Sands in many respects. However, Oretis location ensures the warm season grasses cant invade and nullify the critical requirement of being able to play the ground game.
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Interesting post Grant because yes "true links" the book didn't include a course north of Paraparaumu Beach. In doing so it excluded all the other courses of the Kapiti Coast and north which is on land where the sea has receded leaving sandy soil and linksland? (Otaki*, Foxton, Rangitiki, Marton*, Wanganui*, Waverley*, Patea, Hawara) and others on the East Coast (Mahia, Poverty bay* Ohope, Mt Maunganui*, Matarangi, Waipu) as well as those discussed north on the West Coast, (Nga Motu, Fitzroy*, Waitara*, Muriwai*, Kaitaia) to name a few off the top of my head.
I might have missed a few but surely some of those courses (those in astrix I have played) could have been considered as worthy as those south of Pram? (Miramar Links? was an island until the earthquake of the mid 1800s which raised the ground it resides on).
No doubt Grant the "sticky" nature of the Kikuyu dumbs down its potential as a links (and I would 100% agree with you) but lets be consistent if we are to include the likes of Barwon Heads and Kennedy Bay as "true links".
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Leo
I havent seen some of the courses you listed but I have played a couple that you have. I agree that the strictness of the criteria for the book eliminated for us what are in essence a number of courses that are more "links" than some that made it in. With the exception of Matarangi, all the others have probably never seen anything with earthmoving capability greater than a Massey 135 tractor and front end loader. They can all be held up as fine examples of minimalist design and construction and land fit for purpose.
Exposed sites, such as Kaitaia, which encompass small greens and rough close to greens are very much governed by the wind. The necessity for low shots out of the wind are fun to play and a great demonstration of trajectory and ball control. The dilemma created by being in a climate (and budget restriction) where the warm season grasses are the only viable option is a course where such shots cannot be relied upon to react consistently when hitting the ground.
Interestingly, I encountered this exact same problem when playing Gulf Harbour with its couch fairways and approaches. I recall playing the 16th (very exposed out on the cliff edge) and being faced with a moderate length shot in. The strength of the wind dictated the need for a low shot to be kept out of the wind. I played what I felt to be a very good shot landing about 10 yards shot and fully expected it to roll onto the green. The shot hit and gripped only running about 2-3 metres. Muriwai also suffers in my opinion due to the same conflict of grass type and exposure to the wind.
It will be very interesting to see how Tom Doaks new project goes regarding grass selections and hopefully he can perhaps put forth a few details on the subject if at all possible.
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Ash - Royal Wellington at #19 does not say much for the depth of courses in NZ. RW is a nice members course, but nothing special.
Sorry to come into this thread late, but that is a bit harsh considering NZ has a population of 4.3 million people. To put it in a US context - NZ would be the 12th largest metropolitan area in the US by population. In a ranking of the top 25 courses in Houston or Miami would you perhaps say the same thing about their 19th ranked course?
Not that I have seen too many courses in NZ - on my trip last fall I only had time to play CK and KC.
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It will be very interesting to see how Tom Doaks new project goes regarding grass selections and hopefully he can perhaps put forth a few details on the subject if at all possible.
Grant:
The current plan is to go with fescue wall to wall, including the greens ... we may choose to include some Colonial bent in the greens, but not until the fescue is established. Of course, we've got to get some holes built first, so we still have a little time to make the final decision. I should be back down there in the first half of August to start working on getting some holes built.
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Kerikeri has the best short par 3 in the country, The 13th hole.
Better than 13th at Kidnappers, 14th at Nga Motu, 10th at Chisholm Park, 16th Arrowtown, 7th Jacks Point, 3rd at Oreti Sands, 16th Pram Beach??? Just to name a few that come to mind that may be contenders with Kerikeri's 13th (pictured beneath bottom lhs, the lake beside the bunker looks interesting despite its lack of a fountain)
(http://www.kerikeri.nzgolf.net/banner.jpg)
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Leo,
As you know, to be the best short par 3 in the country that lake MUST have a fountain in it, there should also be a waterfall added behind the green, perhaps a Crocodile pit and 8 piece Mariachi band playing. Oh, and did I forget the dancing girls....
scott
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There is a waterfall behind the green but its probably overgrown now. The big lake looks overgrown, it used to be free of weed with crystal clear water. Used to snorkel in it at lunch time to get golf balls.
Wall to wall fescue sounds exciting at the Te Ari course. One chemical to control poa on the whole course.
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It will be very interesting to see how Tom Doaks new project goes regarding grass selections and hopefully he can perhaps put forth a few details on the subject if at all possible.
Grant:
The current plan is to go with fescue wall to wall, including the greens ... we may choose to include some Colonial bent in the greens, but not until the fescue is established. Of course, we've got to get some holes built first, so we still have a little time to make the final decision. I should be back down there in the first half of August to start working on getting some holes built.
Thanks for the reply Tom
It will be interesting as I cant think off the top of my head of another course in the region using fescue as a primary grass. There are a couple in the South Island that have used it with success. As Dane notes, chemical options exist to aid in the management but I feel the real benefits will be in the lower input nature and playability aspect. As I noted regarding a couple of courses, it is the playability of the grass choices that have hindered their success. Hopefully it will open the eyes of some in the area as to other options that exist in course management. Good choices can not only provide a product that is concerned with the golf experience but also take into account a future which will involve greater restrictions on available inputs.
13th at Kidnappers, 14th at Nga Motu, 10th at Chisholm Park, 16th Arrowtown, 7th Jacks Point, 3rd at Oreti Sands, 16th Pram Beach
Leo
That is a very strong list of short par 3s found throughout NZ. For the purpose of exploring it a little further, lets perhaps set the max distance at 130 metres. I would be inclined to add the 18th at Hamilton Golf CLub (120m off the white). Also, at the risk of being a little sentimental, the 8th at Waihi for me would be very close to being on the list. Hopefull Goldy chimes in with his thoughts as hes played a fair number of NZ tracks in recent times.
Im a big fan of Scotts idea about dancing girls on a hole.
The 16th Arrowtown
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj232/Leftynz/Arrowtown/16thhole.jpg)
The 7th at Jacks Point
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj232/Leftynz/Course%20pics/P1110410.jpg)
The 3rd at Oreti Sands (not a great photo sorry)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj232/Leftynz/P1120263.jpg)
18th at Hamilton (photo from their website)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj232/Leftynz/18thHamilton.jpg)
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I have not seen them for 20 years - but is there any argument for the par threes at Titirangi being the best set in New Zealand?
Presumably they compete with Kidnappers and Paraparaumu.
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I'd find it hard to split Titirangi, Kidnappers and Paraparam on that front Clayts.
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Grant,
Mike is right, Titirangi has a good set of par threes. It is one of the best renovations in New Zealand and the greens are particularly good. Redan does not quite work but the brave contours on 7 and 14 are excellent. The drop shot 4th provides balance.
Titirangi still sits below three other sets of par threes. Cape Kidnappers, Paraparaumu and Oreti Sands.
I think the set at Pram can't be beaten and are amongst the best in the world. Even the Morpeth rebuilt 14th hole works and (like the 4th at Titirangi) provides the balance of a downhill pitch shot.
As far as short par threes, under 130m, I'd note the blind 6th at Oreti Sands, the 16th at Pram and the cliffside 13th at Kidnappers are three of my favourites. There is a punchbowl at Hokitika which is memorable too (I think this is in the True Links book). Another that came to mind was the 1st at Arrowtown which has a fantastic ground hazard short right but is probably longer than 130m. The controversial 16th at The Hills could be great with minor alterations - although it definitely fits into the 'hated by tour pro's' category. And I rather enjoyed the early par three at Cromwell but I suspect that is also longer than 130m.
Looking through Scott's list I'm unfortunately inclined to disagree with his Renaissance comment. This exercise only proves as much.
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Two more points:
1. Wayne: yes, we only have 4.3m people. But we also have thousands of miles of coastline and a temperate climate and associated grasses. Whilst we have the second highest number of golf courses per population, it would be preferable if more of these were built on suitable land.
2. Tom: your course is obviously on very suitable land and will be a success. Good luck with it.
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Grant,
Mike is right, Titirangi has a good set of par threes. It is one of the best renovations in New Zealand and the greens are particularly good. Redan does not quite work but the brave contours on 7 and 14 are excellent. The drop shot 4th provides balance.
Michael
Agreed that the par 3s at Titirangi are very solid as a set.
I do however feel that the 14th simply plays too tough at the current greenspeeds when combined with the contours. It is not the contour that I have issue with but rather it is the characteristics of the poa greens that require them to be maintained in such a way that faster speeds are inevitable.
Our four played it (handicaps 4, 8, 11, 19) and probably took a combined 12 putts between us. Combined with 166 metres and no real place to miss it, its a pretty brutal hole with the green running above 10 foot.
I have heard recently that there is possibly going to be efforts made to reintroduce browntop as the dominant species in the greens which would overcome the problem and make for a more balanced set of challenges.
Here are the par 3s. Interesting as I post these, I hadnt noticed the lack of differential in hole lengths as posted on the card. They do play differently however.
4th hole, 169m from the blues
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj232/Leftynz/TITIRANGI%20GC/4thgreen.jpg)
7th hole, 170m from the blues
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj232/Leftynz/TITIRANGI%20GC/7thtee.jpg)
11th hole, 161m from the blues
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj232/Leftynz/TITIRANGI%20GC/11thtee.jpg)
The 14th hole, 166m from the blue
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj232/Leftynz/TITIRANGI%20GC/14thtee.jpg)
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Hi Boys,
Not to brag, but this week I am in Malta to visit Royal Malta for some research I am doing on the 63 royal golf courses. I flew in yesterday and it was about the only bit of 'green' I could see from the window of the plane. It is 33 degress here today, and I bet they don't have wall-to-wall fescue!
Michael, to expand on my renaissance comment, my point was.... imagine the range of golf courses in NZ if Kauri Cliffs, Cape K, The Hills, Kinloch, Jack's Point, Gulf Harbour etc had not been built. The shape of the Top 10 in NZ would have a completely different shape. And, it may have meant Millbrook, Wairakei, Titirangi, RWGC may not have felt compelled to instigate significant renovations. That almost entirely wipes out the Top 10.
scott
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Scott how far away is Gibbston Valley? Sure we will see it up the list. Best country ever through there... And wine :)
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Photographed this pic in the clubhouse today. Top Ten from 1998. Interesting to see the line up of courses before the renaissance (accepting Gulf Harbour and that other forgotten lass Formosa) came along.
1 Paraparaumu Beach
2 Wairakei
3 Christchurch GC (Shirley)
4 Gulf Harbour
5 Titirangi
6 Formosa
7 Auckland GC (now Royal) Middlemore
8 Wellington (now Royal) Heretaunga
9= Millbrook
9= New Plymouth (Ngamotu)
Interesting to see how a few of the new courses of the day made the grand entrance, Millbrook, Gulf Harbour and Formosa. Also the prominence of the 3 big private clubs in Christchurch, Wellington and Auckland. 14 years on 4 clubs have survived the top 10 on Golf Australia's top 10. Sadly Dane still no mention of Kerikeris 13th.
(http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww35/bunkersb/1998top10.jpg)
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Also no mention of North Shores Black Course :P
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Interesting that the list only had 10 courses on it. New Zealand is much deeper now and many of the older courses have made improvements.
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Photographed this pic in the clubhouse today. Top Ten from 1998. Interesting to see the line up of courses before the renaissance (accepting Gulf Harbour and that other forgotten lass Formosa) came along.
1 Paraparaumu Beach
2 Wairakei
3 Christchurch GC (Shirley)
4 Gulf Harbour
5 Titirangi
6 Formosa
7 Auckland GC (now Royal) Middlemore
8 Wellington (now Royal) Heretaunga
9= Millbrook
9= New Plymouth (Ngamotu)
Interesting to see how a few of the new courses of the day made the grand entrance, Millbrook, Gulf Harbour and Formosa. Also the prominence of the 3 big private clubs in Christchurch, Wellington and Auckland. 14 years on 4 clubs have survived the top 10 on Golf Australia's top 10. Sadly Dane still no mention of Kerikeris 13th.
(http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww35/bunkersb/1998top10.jpg)
Thanks for posting that Leo. It certainly makes for interesting reading.
One observation is the North Island bias in the 98 list with 8 courses versus 2 in the South. The current list now has the split at 6 North 4 South. I dont view this as the South having the best golfing land but rather the developers utilising the existing tourist market and piggy backing on this.
To me, the 98 list has a more "Kiwi Golf" feel about it than the new list. With the exception of Gulf Harbour and Formosa (which had both only just opened in 98) the others are all established courses that convey New Zealand golf to the player. While I will acknowledge the benefit the later projects have encouraged amongst our established courses, I cant help but feel that a golfer who comes to NZ and only plays the highly ranked KC, CK, Hills type courses are in fact missing out on what NZ golf is all about. Certainly most of our courses cant compete internationally in architecture or conditioning but Im not sure we should be trying so hard to do so. I would rather see the character of NZ golf embraced and promoted as such. Much as you dont travel to Scotland with the goal of only playing Loch Lommond, Gleneagles, Kingsbarns and now the Trump, it is important to search out the true representation of what local golf is actually about.
With this is mind, I nominate the following as my top ten "NZ Golf" courses:
(in no particular order)
Arrowtown
Oreti Sands
Paraparaumu Beach
Hamilton Golf Club
Jacks Point
Titirangi
Cromwell
Harewood
Millbrook (the new work)
Waihi
Honourable mention:
Manawatu
Mangakino
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It will be interesting to see what this list looks like in ten years time. We know there is Tom Doak's new course to be built but I cannot think of any other new projects to be commenced in the near future. Also will all the new developments survive? Will the club courses make a return to the list or go up from their present position.
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Hi Dane,
Gibbston valley is about 1500km away. That is literally of course. But it may also be a million miles away. No great deal of movement down there. It could be a stand-out course. The key will be the routing (as is always the case), but also the treatment of the landscape. My view is that it needs to be treated with a soft hand, and if so could be a longer, more varied and cultured version of Arrowtown (a course which I very much like). And that would be a great outcome. Watch this space.
scott
Grant, you need to come to RWGC.
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Hey Scott
I checked out Royal Wellington earlier this year. As I hadnt seen he course prior, I cant comment too much on the change as such but based solely on the new product things look to be going well.
It didnt make my list as I havent played it (same reason for Cape Kidnappers not being on there). I wanted to produce a list that if someone told me they wanted to experience golf in NZ I would put forth my suggestions based on what I know personally.
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http://www.ohopegolf.co.nz/
Has anyone played this course. To quote its website and I guess its author, Greg Turner - "The seaside terrain is as dramatic as anything in the british Isles and the views are exceptional. This is links golf to match the very best anywhere". I see they are looking for a Supt. The aerials look fantastic. Scott was this course considered at all for the write up in "True Links". Would love to see some ground shots and some comment, this course looks understated and abviously that is quite some write up from Greg.
http://u.jimdo.com/www39/o/s9daa9adbbd642c86/img/ia33973c978428d4d/1341978956/std/image.jpg
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http://www.ohopegolf.co.nz/
Has anyone played this course. To quote its website and I guess its author, Greg Turner - "The seaside terrain is as dramatic as anything in the british Isles and the views are exceptional. This is links golf to match the very best anywhere". I see they are looking for a Supt. The aerials look fantastic. Scott was this course considered at all for the write up in "True Links". Would love to see some ground shots and some comment, this course looks understated and abviously that is quite some write up from Greg.
http://u.jimdo.com/www39/o/s9daa9adbbd642c86/img/ia33973c978428d4d/1341978956/std/image.jpg
Leo:
There are hole by hole pictures on their web site which do not look as compelling as the aerial view on the home page ... a couple of little ponds, a lot of scattered trees, not as stark of a links as it looks from above. [It almost doesn't even look like the same course.] However, the par-3 second hole looks awesome to me. Where exactly is this place in relation to Auckland?
Grant:
I appreciate your list of "NZ courses" but what makes Jacks Point eligible and The Hills not eligible?
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Hi Leo,
Yes, the 'Ohope International Golf Links' was very much considered. I thought it looked really interesting. The reason it didn't make it into 'True Links' was that it failed to meet the the authors criteria regarding fairway grasses. Ohope has Kikuyu fairways (but cool season turf greens).
Some consider the best holes to be 4,6 and 14. The Club was formed 1971,and the course opened in april 1975. It became 18 holes in 1986. The design is not credited to anyone specifically. But a renovation plan was made in 2002 by Alex Glasgow (of NZ Sports Turf Institute). The course is a par 71, 5686m long.
PS- Kaitaia, Waipu and Waitara missed out on inclusion in TR for the same reason as Ohope.
scott
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Grant:
I appreciate your list of "NZ courses" but what makes Jacks Point eligible and The Hills not eligible?
The hills didnt make my list because I havent played it, I have only walked it a number of times.
Jacks point have gone for a low key product which is nice and understated in a Kiwi sort of way. The aesthetics of the place including the way it sits in the landscape generate a nice comfortable feeling for me. They have never felt the need to chase tournaments or big publicity to justify themselves such as Gulf Harbour with the world cup and Formosa with the NZ open. This course sits at one end of the spectrum of my list with Oreti and Waihi at the other.
The hills is a very different model in terms of what they have chosen to offer. High level service with all the bells and whistles. Ultra exclusive memberships for those who can afford it. They allow some greenfee play but at a price. I have no issue with their model or the course as such, but Im not sure I would ever personally recommend it as a NZ golf course or experience. I do feel though, it was a fantastic venue for the NZ open while it was there.
Has anyone played this course. To quote its website and I guess its author, Greg Turner - "The seaside terrain is as dramatic as anything in the british Isles and the views are exceptional. This is links golf to match the very best anywhere". I see they are looking for a Supt. The aerials look fantastic. Scott was this course considered at all for the write up in "True Links". Would love to see some ground shots and some comment, this course looks understated and abviously that is quite some write up from Greg.
The pictures are enough to make me want to go see it in person.
The club history is an interesting read and highlights the dedication of the members to get the place going. The reference to free use of a bulldozer is a little worrying though.
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[/quote]
Where exactly is this place in relation to Auckland?
[/quote]
Tom
Probably 3.5hr drive from Auckland south east. Its on the East Coast out towards the big lump (East Cape) that juts out from the right hand side of the North Island.
Scott, Thanks for the clarification re Warm season grass criteria.
Here are some Pics of my fav short par 3s (sorry Dane, no waterfalls or fountains)
3rd Oreti Sands
(http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww35/bunkersb/IMG_1614.jpg)
16 Arrowtown
(http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww35/bunkersb/IMG_1698.jpg)
10th Chisholm Park
(http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww35/bunkersb/IMG_1759.jpg)
14th Ngamotu (New Plymouth GC), Moses
(http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww35/bunkersb/14thNgmotu.jpg)
7th Jacks Pt
(http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww35/bunkersb/DSC00310.jpg)
16th Paraparaumu Beach
(http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww35/bunkersb/Paraparaumu%20Beach/DSC03274.jpg)
No photo of 13th CK and Grant still searching for 15 Waihi.
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No photo of 13th CK and Grant still searching for 15 Waihi.
Here's 13 at Kidnappers
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o64/kiteboymm/IMG_2157.jpg)
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Cheers Matthew, one of the more "honest" photos of 13. Normally we get the big sweeping cliffs view. Great little hole. Tough green where the 3 putt isnt that uncommon