Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Terry Lavin on May 30, 2012, 10:56:13 AM
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I recently returned from my fifth trip to Bandon, the Holy Grail of golf in the US, in my not so humble opinion. The walking-only requirement is a major influence on the overall ethos of the resort and is probably its single-most distinguishing feature. But that requirement is also a limiting factor, business wise. There are a lot of players who will never go to Bandon because of the absence of carts. There are many players who limit the amount of rounds played once there because of a lack of desire to walk a second 18. I've been wondering if there is a common ground that could allow limited cart play. I've been told that the fescue grass could tolerate no more than 25% of rounds to be played with carts. The options could include: Rotating the one course per day that allows carts; Allowing carts after a certain time of the day, for "replay" rounds only; Allowing only a certain number of carts to be reserved per day. I'm sure that there are other variations on this theme that could be considered.
From a business standpoint, there is no question that the baby boomer golfers are aging and are less able to contemplate walking only. The next generation of golfers is not nearly as populous, for many reasons that need not be discussed here. As a businessman, I would think that Mike Keiser has to figure out a way to either grow the game for younger players (and joined others who have failed in that quest) or figure out a way to adapt to his aging demographic.
What do you think? Would it kill the vibe? Would limited cart play not really affect the overall enjoyment of the resort? Would it be nothing short of great if you could take a cart in the afternoon, after playing 18?
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Terry...
I hear you, but I vote "no".
I say this even though I could barely walk after my second round at Bandon Dunes Resort and I had 3 days left of nothing but walking golf. I'd rather limp around that place and struggle to keep my balance and make a turn then see carts racing all over that perfect golf landscape.
But that is just my opinion.
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no
additionally, carts are not compatible with healthy fescue
and golf as it was meant to be is a walking game
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Terry - in your opinion, does the course need another "arrow in the quiver" to attract more golfers? From my one experience at the resort and everything I've heard and read, the resort is damn near close to capacity year round. If that is the case, what would be their incentive to add carts?
I guess one could argue you can always squeeze more profit out of any endeavor, but at what expense? So far, Mike Keiser appears unwilling to sacrifice the culture of the resort in an effort to drum up more profit. And I for one am very happy that's his stance.
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All good ideas. My biggest fear would be a possible change in the clientele. For the most part only serious golfers go to Bandon now. With more corporate and non serious golfer visitors, it might affect the vibe a bit.
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All good ideas. My biggest fear would be a possible change in the clientele. For the most part only serious golfers go to Bandon now. With more corporate and non serious golfer visitors, it might affect the vibe a bit.
Agreed. That is also one reason why I like the resort in the winter months - you have to be pretty stout (and maybe cheap) to embrace 3-4 walking days in potentially miserable weather.
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I think that Bandon should (and I think it is inevitable):
1. Expand their caddie programe to include "bag carriers" (hopefully recruited from the local school age population);
2. Allow limited cart play (ideally one person carts) to over-65s or spring chickens with a valid medical certificate
This is the way that course/club policy is going in Scotland (where golf not only is what it "used to be," it still is!).
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No, however, I am glad that they allow cart use for those who cannot walk for health and medical reasons. I took my dad, who is diabetic and has a bad knee, to Chambers Bay and that nearly killed him. If we ever go to Bandon, he will be bringing a doctor's note.
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All good ideas. My biggest fear would be a possible change in the clientele. For the most part only serious golfers go to Bandon now. With more corporate and non serious golfer visitors, it might affect the vibe a bit.
Agreed. That is also one reason why I like the resort in the winter months - you have to be pretty stout (and maybe cheap) to embrace 3-4 walking days in potentially miserable weather.
I think you just described me perfectly.
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In the back of my mind, I seem to recall that the 27 holes Gil is supposed to do off property are to allow carts. That would give the option of walking 18, then riding 18 at the other location or vice versa, if my memory serves me right.
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no
additionally, carts are not compatible with healthy fescue
and golf as it was meant to be is a walking game
Both Sand Hills and Dismal River have proved those statements untrue.
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I recently returned from my fifth trip to Bandon, the Holy Grail of golf in the US.
But that requirement is also a limiting factor, business wise.
There are a lot of players who will never go to Bandon because of the absence of carts.
Terry,
interesting observations.
my take
Your "fifth" trip to Bandon-kind've says it all ;D
"a limiting factor business wise"-they're not building new courses every year because business is hurting ;)
"lot of players who will never go to Bandon because of absence of carts"-that's a good thing
That said, Bandon does allow carts for physical disabilities which is a good thing.
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no
additionally, carts are not compatible with healthy fescue
and golf as it was meant to be is a walking game
Both Sand Hills and Dismal River have proved those statements untrue.
In what possible way could Sand Hills and Dismal River prove that golf "as it was meant to be" is not a walking game?
For that matter, are the courses at Sand Hills and Dismal River booked full everyday so they might even have a chance of proving whether carts would be compatible with healthy fescue at Bandon? Apples to oranges my friend!
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To answer you question Terry, it may not kill the vibe but it would hurt it badly. I don't see a problem with walking only. If Mr. Keiser is willing to risk losing money, that's his business. I respect him for his conviction. If you want to take a cart, just go to Pebble Beach or pretty much every other golf resort in the country. You can even drive it on a cart path.
The ironic thing is that the Bandon resort is the only place where not only are you allowed to take the pull cart over the green, you're encouraged to do so to speed up play.
At Royal Dornoch, I think anyone can take a cart. The catch is that there are only three of them.
The other option is to rent the cart for $100 or so per round.
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Garland,
Sand Hills is all that golf was ever meant to be with the exception of being cheap. It is a very busy very cart ball facility. The fairways are a perfect as any in the world.
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Bandon crossings allows carts. I would bet a good deal of there business is 2nd rounds from bandon for guys that can't walk 36
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It is a very busy very cart ball facility. The fairways are a perfect as any in the world.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Sand Hills fairways composed of rye grass?
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"The fairways were seeded with a blend of four fine-blade fescues, which makes for a stunning contrast against the bunkers and the native tan andbrowngrasses blowing in the breeze."
From Ran's review of Sand Hills
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John,
I am surprised at how people have ranked Sand Hills with it being a cart course.
Folks I've spoken with about say it is walkable, but that people drive to get around faster.
How many rounds do they have played there?
I'd have to say that there will never be carts at Bandon. The green fee could always be dropped if the tee sheet was emptying.
Thanks
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Sand Hills is very walkable, perfect in every way. Their demographic likes to ride. Me included.
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...Their demographic likes to ride. Me included.
John,
You need to shape up. Do it for your health. Do it for your wife.
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I think Mike K. is taking the baby boomers into consideration. The plan for Bandon 6 is to be another Par 3 course out near Bandon Trails' 3rd hole.
So, just guessing, the game plan would be for the boomers to walk 18 in the AM, lunch, and then the Par 3 courses in the afternoon.
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...Their demographic likes to ride. Me included.
John,
You need to shape up. Do it for your health. Do it for your wife.
To say I ride because I am fat is as ignorant as saying walkers carry because they are cheap.
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No carts at Bandon.....EVER! None.....ever.
Ever think the resort makes MORE money by not allowing carts. It's certainly possible. Quite frankly, it's non-factor - it won't happen.
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Terry's initial post presumes that the decisions at Bandon are driven to maximize profits. While I know that Mike Keiser has a healthy respect for the bottom line, my experience is that with respect to his golfing endeavors, he balances that objective with an even greater respect for his vision of the game and its architecture. Accordingly, his view of what "should " be done will be guided by what he believes is the best way to play and what is best for the courses. so long as he is in charge, I doubt that there will be a significant expansion of the use of carts. What happens thereafter is anyone's guess.
As to preferences for walking versus riding, I much prefer walking. I am no fan of cart paths or their impact on architecture or the appreciation of architecture. But I see no reason to impose my views or prefernces on others in their recreational pursuits so long as they don't disturb me. While I think it is a better game walking and I am generally unhappy if I am required to take a cart, I would not stand in the way of those who want to enjoy the game a different way so long as they respect the course and the game.
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Would it be nothing short of great if you could take a cart in the afternoon, after playing 18?
Terry can speak for himself, but I'm assuming his post is primarily driven not by an interest in whether Bandon could/would be more profitable with carts, but in his own interest in being able to play more golf if carts are available. Like many others, I prefer walking -- but it's not super-easy to walk 36 holes or more 4 or 5 days in a row, and I'd rather play 36 holes 4 or 5 days in a row, with a few of the 2nd rounds in a cart, than to play less golf than that.
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Would it be nothing short of great if you could take a cart in the afternoon, after playing 18?
Terry can speak for himself, but I'm assuming his post is primarily driven not by an interest in whether Bandon could/would be more profitable with carts, but in his own interest in being able to play more golf if carts are available. Like many others, I prefer walking -- but it's not super-easy to walk 36 holes or more 4 or 5 days in a row, and I'd rather play 36 holes 4 or 5 days in a row, with a few of the 2nd rounds in a cart, than to play less golf than that.
Agreed. I'll still continue to go to Bandon regardless, but I'd really like the opportunity to play the second 18 on a cart if possible. My other inquiries relate to the business model, not my personal situation.
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There are 100s of courses that allow carts all over the course. Why is it so bad to have a single golf resort that discourages carts? Can't the cartball people go elsewhere?
I have no problem with people who can't walk 36 not playing 36.
Cheers,
Dan King
I see the distorted swings, the hurried rounds, and now the electric carts tae ruin the courses and rob us of our exercise. I don't think evolution is goin' ahead so much as just goin' along breedin' more unfitness every day.
--Julian Lang (Golf in the Kingdom)
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Let the least popular, already most compromised, course host cart riders in the afternoon. It would be a win/win for everyone if Bandon Trails allowed carts given it would free up the other courses for afternoon rounds while letting those who choose to ride play. I've played Bandon Crossings and it is not a reasonable option for a second 18 as long as a guy can find an open bar.
Yes Bandon Trails was compromised when they put in a cart on 14 and butchered the green to shut up the critics.
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I am not comfortable (to get all Californian on ya) with the assumption that the vibe would be damaged by carts unless of course its due to a fear of cart paths being installed. I don't see carts as measure of the golfer or how serious he is about golf. I don't mind if carts are allowed so long as cart paths are not built. I suspect that means a very limited number of carts would be in operation and the resort could say "no carts allowed" if and when they think it best to do so. I know that would be tough on cart ballers, but thats life.
Ciao
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Probably not. I think they require a caddy driver or the carts because they have specific "paths" they want the limited cart usage to take on certain pats of the course, and these are not easily visible and intuitive. There would have to be a lot of engineering done to allow carts to get from 13 green to 14 tee at Trails and other places. I'd guess that some of gthe architecture is different because of the no-cart philosophy.
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There's no question that allowing carts on any of the courses would require some cartpath construction and perhaps some modifications to some tees. As for making one course (BT perhaps) the only place to allow carts, that change would require regrassing because the fescue wouldn't survive with that much cart traffic.
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...Their demographic likes to ride. Me included.
John,
You need to shape up. Do it for your health. Do it for your wife.
To say I ride because I am fat is as ignorant as saying walkers carry because they are cheap.
Golf is a walking game. If you are capable of walking, you should because it will do your health good among other things. Shape up private.
Why do you bring up fat?
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There's no question that allowing carts on any of the courses would require some cartpath construction and perhaps some modifications to some tees. As for making one course (BT perhaps) the only place to allow carts, that change would require regrassing because the fescue wouldn't survive with that much cart traffic.
If there is no way to use carts properly without altering the courses (I consider paths an alteration) than I would be dead against carts. I am against paths in almost every situation so I can't see tearing up what are meant to be unique courses for the US for the sake of accommodating carts.
Ciao
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If you allow some use of carts -- beyond the disabled -- you will end up allowing carts for everyone. There is no way some customer paying $100s to play is going to allow someone else to use a cart when they aren't allowed. Before long Bandon will be just like every other resort course, with cartballers playing the course just to put another notch in their list of golf courses.
I like that golf course collectors have to get in good enough shape to add Bandon to their collection.
Cheers,
Dan King
So the British, of all ages, still walk the course. On trips to Florida or the American desert, they still marvel, or shudder, at the fleets of electric carts going off in the morning like the first assault wave at the Battle of El Alamein. It is unlikely, for some time, that a Briton will come across in his native land such a scorecard as Henry Longhurst rescued from a California club and cherished till the day he died. The last on its list of local rules printed the firm warning "A Player on Foot Has No Standing on the Course."
--Alister Cooke
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If you allow some use of carts -- beyond the disabled -- you will end up allowing carts for everyone. There is no way some customer paying $100s to play is going to allow someone else to use a cart when they aren't allowed. Before long Bandon will be just like every other resort course, with cartballers playing the course just to put another notch in their list of golf courses.
I like that golf course collectors have to get in good enough shape to add Bandon to their collection.
Cheers,
Dan King
So the British, of all ages, still walk the course. On trips to Florida or the American desert, they still marvel, or shudder, at the fleets of electric carts going off in the morning like the first assault wave at the Battle of El Alamein. It is unlikely, for some time, that a Briton will come across in his native land such a scorecard as Henry Longhurst rescued from a California club and cherished till the day he died. The last on its list of local rules printed the firm warning "A Player on Foot Has No Standing on the Course."
--Alister Cooke
I very much agree with this. I do love that it takes just a little bit more commitment to play these courses.
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No. Allowing carts would ruin the experience, invite too many douchebags and turn Bandon into just another golf resort, albeit with superior courses. No.
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To say I ride because I am fat is as ignorant as saying walkers carry because they are cheap.
Well, for some of us that's true. Sure, I walk because I enjoy the experience, the exercise, and I'm young and fit enough to do it. But saving $20 per round is somewhat motivating as well.
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As someone with two bad knees who can't walk nine holes let alone eighteen, I would welcome carts in a limited capacity at Bandon. Kiawah allows carts in the afternoon and it doesn't seem to hurt the course. When I started playing in 1976 there were no cart paths on my home course and there didn't seem to be any noticeable damage. I don't approve of cart only courses and I also don't think there should be cart free courses either. If Cypress Point, Olympic and Riviera can allow carts why not Bandon. I don't use handicap spots for parking, why should I have to get a note to play a golf course. I would think if Bandon was proud of their courses they would find a way to show them to all golfers who were interested in playing them.
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I've seen a couple of places using these:
http://www.segway.com/downloads/pdfs/golf/Golf_Mgmt_Case_Studylow.pdf
p.s. "Cartballers" would have no place to put their beers, etc. ;)
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Tim Leahy writes:
As someone with two bad knees who can't walk nine holes let alone eighteen, I would welcome carts in a limited capacity at Bandon.
Bandon does go out of its way to ensure you can see the golf course. All you need is a note from your doctor. I fail to see how it is Bandon's fault you don't want to take an extra step to play the course the way you want to play it.
I don't approve of cart only courses and I also don't think there should be cart free courses either.
You do understand they exist though, right?
I would think if Bandon was proud of their courses they would find a way to show them to all golfers who were interested in playing them.
Why?
Probably at least 95 percent of American golf courses allow unlimited use of carts. Some number of those only allow golf by carts and others are designed in such a way it would be difficult to play on foot. Cartballers have so many choices, why do you need to screw-up some of the few courses in the world left for walking diehards.
Cheers,
Dan King
I think golf carts take a little piece of golf's quality away. The tradition of the game is being passed by because revenue is the number one consideration. There's money in carts.
--Richard Zokol
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1. Have 1 course per day designated as the golf cart course - Wednesday through Saturday - on a rotating basis. Walking all 4 four courses Sunday through Tuesday. That way, an older person could play all 4 courses over 4 days. Plus, it would not hurt the vibe because the walkers would avoid that 1 course each day that had carts - ie. if I went there, I would play 36 at Pac Dunes and Old Macdonald if Bandon Dunes was the cart course that day. Plus, 1 day of carts per week would not be detrimental to the courses. Plus, they can get rid of the doctors notes.
2. Have "bag carriers" that cost $40-$60 per round instead of the $80-$100. That would allow them to keep only the best caddies and get rid of those with attitudes (which I saw a lot). Plus, it would lower the cost for the average guy.
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No. Allowing carts would ruin the experience, invite too many douchebags and turn Bandon into just another golf resort, albeit with superior courses. No.
In all honesty, the double strap carry bag which promotes iron clicking would cure any yeast infection. Now that the modern cart is equipped with a silent parking brake I find walkers more likely to be rude than cartballers.
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As someone with two bad knees who can't walk nine holes let alone eighteen, I would welcome carts in a limited capacity at Bandon. Kiawah allows carts in the afternoon and it doesn't seem to hurt the course. When I started playing in 1976 there were no cart paths on my home course and there didn't seem to be any noticeable damage. I don't approve of cart only courses and I also don't think there should be cart free courses either. If Cypress Point, Olympic and Riviera can allow carts why not Bandon. I don't use handicap spots for parking, why should I have to get a note to play a golf course. I would think if Bandon was proud of their courses they would find a way to show them to all golfers who were interested in playing them.
The difference being the courses you named are private and already have a system in place to limit the damage to the course. If Bandon were allow unlimited cart use, I fear the courses would be ruined.
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Seems real easy to set something like this up.
1) You determine how many rounds per day that X course can handle with the cart.
2) You set up a block of tee times for "approved" cart use. Whether its in the PM or one course per day, whatever that works out to be.
3) You take the tee times and have the software keep track of the cart reservations.
4) When the "alloted" rounds per day number is met, its met....no more carts are allocated.
Simple as that.
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Seems real easy to set something like this up.
1) You determine how many rounds per day that X course can handle with the cart.
2) You set up a block of tee times for "approved" cart use. Whether its in the PM or one course per day, whatever that works out to be.
3) You take the tee times and have the software keep track of the cart reservations.
4) When the "alloted" rounds per day number is met, its met....no more carts are allocated.
Simple as that.
The status quo is even simpler.
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I like carts as much as the next guy, particularly with my knees, but Bandon should definitely not allow cart play except for those with a medical excuse. If you had certain times that allowed cart play those would sell out immediately and the entire feel of the place would be changed forever. The courses are designed for walking, the caddies are some of the best around and the weather is cool. If I can walk 36 there most anyone can.
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I would like it if Bandon had limited cart play as I am seriously considering dropping out of my November group. Last year I was barely able to make all four rounds, with caddy.
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Sand Hills is very walkable, perfect in every way. Their demographic likes to ride. Me included.
I'm surprised that their demographic likes to ride, I mean how can you really enjoy a #1 course by cart?
How can a course that is #1 be #1 from from a cart?
Architecture w/o carts is better than architecture w/ carts. 8)
Thanks
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I would like it if Bandon had limited cart play as I am seriously considering dropping out of my November group. Last year I was barely able to make all four rounds, with caddy.
I think that is a fair and legitimate problem. Being born in 1960 I am at the end of largest golfing demographic that will ever exist. I doubt if I will ever visit Bandon again but if I do it will absolutely need to be in the next 10 years. Us golfers are getting older and there are no replacements behind us to fill these tee sheets. You can't expect a bunch of 60, 70 and 80 year olds to keep a public walking only resort functioning.
I'm taking a 72 year old to Dismal this week. I could not take him to Bandon. Not everyone is as lucky as me.
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Make carts "available" for an additional $125 per player after a certain time... say 4 hours before dark
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No. Allowing carts would ruin the experience, invite too many douchebags and turn Bandon into just another golf resort, albeit with superior courses. No.
Wow, we had people in the UK that spoke like this up to the 1960s. Back to the question, I think if Bandon is doing well as it is then NO, if they would allow carts then they would probably double their business, hardly anyone over 45 can walk 72 holes over 2 days. If you take the view that people would like to play all the courses over a short 2 or 3 day period or indeed play them all twice, then the cost of getting to Bandon, staying eating and golfing all gets better value with the replay rates. 16 of us looked at going to Bandon and it got the NO because of the no carts. Its okay as long as they are doing okay as they are. It has some carts now so its merely a case of slightly widening the stance and as somene suggested allow them in a replay rate, with no paths it would need to be regulated to help protect the grasses but this could be done by using GPS and zoning off areas to regulate the wear.
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You have to designate only 1 course as the cart course for the day. That way the authentic feel of an all-walking facility is preserved for those that want it - just avoid the 1 walking course that day.
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Cartballers have so many choices, why do you need to screw-up some of the few courses in the world left for walking diehards.
Notwithstanding my self-centered interest in having carts available so that I could more easily play 10+ rounds in 5 days, I'm pretty sympathetic to the walking-only perspective. But if you're going to say that carts would "screw-up" the courses, I think you need to say how. Is it that paths would become necessary (that may be true, but I'm not sure it's necessarily true)? Is it that the turf would be worse? Is it the vibe? Or is it simply knowing that somewhere on the course with you, or even just somewhere at the resort, there's a cart? Or is it the probable evolution from limited cart use to unlimited use (which, in my view, is probably the best argument)?
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Make carts "available" for an additional $125 per player after a certain time... say 4 hours before dark
I would have no problem with that fee if it were per person and included a forecaddie for each cart. It would also be easy to modify a cart so the caddie could operate it from his perch back by the clubs. This would greatly reduce the need for course modifications.
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No. Allowing carts would ruin the experience, invite too many douchebags and turn Bandon into just another golf resort, albeit with superior courses. No.
Wow, we had people in the UK that spoke like this up to the 1960s. Back to the question, I think if Bandon is doing well as it is then NO, if they would allow carts then they would probably double their business, hardly anyone over 45 can walk 72 holes over 2 days. If you take the view that people would like to play all the courses over a short 2 or 3 day period or indeed play them all twice, then the cost of getting to Bandon, staying eating and golfing all gets better value with the replay rates. 16 of us looked at going to Bandon and it got the NO because of the no carts. Its okay as long as they are doing okay as they are. It has some carts now so its merely a case of slightly widening the stance and as somene suggested allow them in a replay rate, with no paths it would need to be regulated to help protect the grasses but this could be done by using GPS and zoning off areas to regulate the wear.
Adrian-
In the Swinley Forest thread I was suprised to see a picture with two carts in it (possibly for a single foursome, or perhaps two twosomes). How many rounds get played using carts at the fairly high-end English courses . . . or is it impossible to generalize?
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Adrian,same question as Carl plus are the carts available at the request of members or guests (Americans)?
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I would like it if Bandon had limited cart play as I am seriously considering dropping out of my November group. Last year I was barely able to make all four rounds, with caddy.
I think that is a fair and legitimate problem. Being born in 1960 I am at the end of largest golfing demographic that will ever exist. I doubt if I will ever visit Bandon again but if I do it will absolutely need to be in the next 10 years. Us golfers are getting older and there are no replacements behind us to fill these tee sheets. You can't expect a bunch of 60, 70 and 80 year olds to keep a public walking only resort functioning.
I'm taking a 72 year old to Dismal this week. I could not take him to Bandon. Not everyone is as lucky as me.
Try 1945 here
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No. Allowing carts would ruin the experience, invite too many douchebags and turn Bandon into just another golf resort, albeit with superior courses. No.
In all honesty, the double strap carry bag which promotes iron clicking would cure any yeast infection. Now that the modern cart is equipped with a silent parking brake I find walkers more likely to be rude than cartballers.
How long are you going to keep this up? Irons have been clicking since long before anyone invented a double strap carry bag.
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Carl Nichols writes:
But if you're going to say that carts would "screw-up" the courses, I think you need to say how
I have said how. If the camel once gets his nose in the tent, his body will soon follow. American's do not take kindly to being forbidden from doing something when they see others doing it. If you allow it on one course, or only certain times of the day, you are going to have golfers complaining it isn't available to them when and where they want it. Bandon will end up being similar to countless other courses, where the golf course collectors dominate the tee sheet. Right now cartballers know to stay away from Bandon and I like that.
Do cartballers really feel so insecure they have to ensure they can play 100 percent of the courses rather than 99 percent? Why not just be happy with what you have? You have many more choices than walkers.
Cheers,
Dan King
Maybe it's time to propose that golfers refuse to play courses where they are forced to ride. Now this idea has absolutely no chance of gaining ground because a generation of golfers is being raised who think that walking is the oddity. They'll read in some old golf magazine that former USGA president Sandy Tatum once called golf by cart "cart-ball." And they will think, "who was that old fogy anyway?"
--Lorne Rubenstein
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No. Allowing carts would ruin the experience, invite too many douchebags and turn Bandon into just another golf resort, albeit with superior courses. No.
Wow, we had people in the UK that spoke like this up to the 1960s. Back to the question, I think if Bandon is doing well as it is then NO, if they would allow carts then they would probably double their business, hardly anyone over 45 can walk 72 holes over 2 days. If you take the view that people would like to play all the courses over a short 2 or 3 day period or indeed play them all twice, then the cost of getting to Bandon, staying eating and golfing all gets better value with the replay rates. 16 of us looked at going to Bandon and it got the NO because of the no carts. Its okay as long as they are doing okay as they are. It has some carts now so its merely a case of slightly widening the stance and as somene suggested allow them in a replay rate, with no paths it would need to be regulated to help protect the grasses but this could be done by using GPS and zoning off areas to regulate the wear.
Adrian-
In the Swinley Forest thread I was suprised to see a picture with two carts in it (possibly for a single foursome, or perhaps two twosomes). How many rounds get played using carts at the fairly high-end English courses . . . or is it impossible to generalize?
Carl
Many member owned clubs will have a few or or so carts on hand. They aren't in the least common, but I see plenty through the year on top courses - maybe 25 in total. You have to remember that many older clubs may cross roads, parking lots or have very hilly sections which would all present insurance nightmares for carts - to the point where some clubs won't even bother getting into it. Once you get into company owned clubs there are generally more carts available - may 8 or 12 or perhaps a few more. If I had to guess the number of round in carts at member clubs I would say it is less than 1%. It is very common to see guys hobbling around the course and it wouldn't occur to most to even think of taking a cart.
Ciao
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Rotating schedule where each day one course allowed carts for the first hour in the morning while the same day another course allowing carts beginning at 4 hours 30 minutes before dark.
-Cart golf is regular rate x1.75 ($400) inlcuding forecaddy as JK suggests
-No replay discount for cart riders (only walkers get this benefit)
You would open up the facility to "everyone" while limiting (and discouraging) those you would prefer not to see.
Not ideal but penalizing the carts riders while rewarding the walkers seems the only way to do it.
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Adrian,same question as Carl plus are the carts available at the request of members or guests (Americans)?
Carl & JME - I think it does vary quite a bit. I am not 100% on this but the impression I get is that most UK courses do have some carts, though some may not for H & S grounds or just no paths (perhaps Painswick). I dont think Sunningdale (for instance) would have a big fleet. At my course we have 27 which in the UK is probably a big fleet, what happens is that on a weekend day when the members play, we might get 4 buggies out in every 100 rounds (8%). If we get visitors (we do 10000 annually), it can get up to all 27 buggies going out. My buggy rentals are probably 80% to visitors but our visitors are about 20% of our total rounds... I really dont know how common that is as a UK cross section but resorty type golf does tend to go hand in hand with carts, I do booking Stay and Play packages, 2 night stay + 3 rounds of golf and two courses I use do not have carts, several times the party will not go to that course because 1 member of say a party of 24 needs a cart, so that course misses out on 24 green fees. I know we are just talking about Bandon here, but in the commercial world carts are essential.
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F carts! :o nuf said
try Bandon Preserve or Shortys
sit in a plane, sit in a car, sit in a shuttle, sit at the pub, but walk the course!, good heavens...sounds like this is getting to the entitlement stage at this point
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Adrian,thanks.
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I was surprised since first visiting Scotland in 99 that on subsequent trips more carts were visible on the courses. My dad told me stories from around the mid 90 where it was near impossible to get a cart(my mother was handicapped but enjoyed driving the course in a cart, some courses were very considerate and would have a ranger drive the cart for her).
My thinking for the increase in carts was for the North Amercian tourist as they were accustomed to using carts.
As for Bandon, I completely agree with carts for medical purposes but otherwise, no carts. My dad is now 80 and hates using a cart. If he wants to do a second round, he starts eliminating clubs from his bag. As we get older(fatter), we shouldnt start looking for ways to accomodate our age but rather ways in which we can better our health....you know, like walking 18 holes instead of riding.
And kudos to Mac, I would have been crying at the turn if I had your old hips.
As for the clinking of the irons, they have been clinking since well before Balata balls. I actually love the sound of the clinking clubs as I walk the fairway. It is simple, if you are approaching a group merely put your right hand over the clubs and the clinking will stop. A guy on the 17th tee gave me a simple nod of the hat on the weekend when he noticed I did that while his mate was hitting.....I love golf!
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F carts! :o nuf said
try Bandon Preserve or Shortys
sit in a plane, sit in a car, sit in a shuttle, sit at the pub, but walk the course!, good heavens...sounds like this is getting to the entitlement stage at this point
A walking Nazi is just as appealing as a cart Nazi. Absolutism is not very becoming.
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I'm surprised that a cart-only course exists in the USA at this juncture. If Bandon were to start allowing carts it would not surprise me at all but it would be a minor disappointment.
P.S. Terry, there is no room to be a "walking Nazi" in USA golf today. It's all about carts, everywhere, all the time. If you can't tolerate the existence of four courses out of an entire bloody continent with no carts, even four highly desirable courses, then absolutism is hardly a strong enough word for it.
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F carts! :o nuf said
try Bandon Preserve or Shortys
sit in a plane, sit in a car, sit in a shuttle, sit at the pub, but walk the course!, good heavens...sounds like this is getting to the entitlement stage at this point
+1
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I was surprised since first visiting Scotland in 99 that on subsequent trips more carts were visible on the courses. My dad told me stories from around the mid 90 where it was near impossible to get a cart(my mother was handicapped but enjoyed driving the course in a cart, some courses were very considerate and would have a ranger drive the cart for her).
My thinking for the increase in carts was for the North Amercian tourist as they were accustomed to using carts.
As for Bandon, I completely agree with carts for medical purposes but otherwise, no carts. My dad is now 80 and hates using a cart. If he wants to do a second round, he starts eliminating clubs from his bag. As we get older(fatter), we shouldnt start looking for ways to accomodate our age but rather ways in which we can better our health....you know, like walking 18 holes instead of riding.
And kudos to Mac, I would have been crying at the turn if I had your old hips.
As for the clinking of the irons, they have been clinking since well before Balata balls. I actually love the sound of the clinking clubs as I walk the fairway. It is simple, if you are approaching a group merely put your right hand over the clubs and the clinking will stop. A guy on the 17th tee gave me a simple nod of the hat on the weekend when he noticed I did that while his mate was hitting.....I love golf!
+1
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F carts! :o nuf said
try Bandon Preserve or Shortys
sit in a plane, sit in a car, sit in a shuttle, sit at the pub, but walk the course!, good heavens...sounds like this is getting to the entitlement stage at this point
A walking Nazi is just as appealing as a cart Nazi. Absolutism is not very becoming.
+100
...well said Terry!
Either way, this whole thing will eventually play out at the resort. As the crowds get older, if there aren't young-uns to replace em, rounds will drop and so will prices. But if Mr. Keiser can make a healthy profit without carts, then I don't see anything work perse with his model
As for me, I think the one thing lost on Natzi walkers is....golf should be a game for enjoyment. If one is in a good deal of physical pain while playing golf, where is the enjoyment? Why spend big $$$$ for that?
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I'm surprised that a cart-only course exists in the USA at this juncture. If Bandon were to start allowing carts it would not surprise me at all but it would be a minor disappointment.
P.S. Terry, there is no room to be a "walking Nazi" in USA golf today. It's all about carts, everywhere, all the time. If you can't tolerate the existence of four courses out of an entire bloody continent with no carts, even four highly desirable courses, then absolutism is hardly a strong enough word for it.
+1
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Terry Lavin writes:
A walking Nazi is just as appealing as a cart Nazi. Absolutism is not very becoming.
It's self-preservation. We have seen countless times what happens when cartball is allowed. Cart proponents have been saying for decades, just allow carts for people who need them. Before you know it carts, cart golf courses, cart paths and cartballers are everywhere, often times for financial reasons not allowing walkers.
Now they are saying just give in a little at one of the only places that is dedicated to walkers. Tell us, why should we believe them when they have shown they aren't happy until golf is a good walk prohibited?
Cheers,
Dan King
Golf is not a good walk spoiled. It is becoming a good walk prohibited. Show me the common sense in this and I promise I will relent. But there is no common sense at all in the prohibition of walking.
--Lorne Rubenstein
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... If one is in a good deal of physical pain while playing golf, where is the enjoyment? Why spend big $$$$ for that?
Pain is a fact of life. I've played in a good deal of physical pain, and enjoyed the playing.
I will not have my full game at Sagebrush, because of pain, but I will still enjoy it.
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Just a guess, but I believe most of those who vehemently object to carts under any circumstances are relatively young and sturdy, whereas those who would like to see at least a limited use of carts are older and creakier.
I'm 60, my knees ache (surgery on both, but no replacements yet) and I walk 98 percent of my rounds. I'd probably have answered this question differently when I was 40, but with my first trip to Bandon on the schedule for later this year, I find myself sympathetic to the idea of limited cart use there. I plan to play 36 on back-to-back days, and I'll walk it if I have to, but the last 18 are going to hurt like hell.
That's just the way it is at my age, and I will deal with it -- but my interests now lie more toward being able to play more golf than toward spoiling some ideological aesthetic that I've never experienced.
Bandon can and should do whatever they want. Golf's demographics suggest, however, that more and more of its core consumers are dealing with my realities.
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At my age if I am walking 36 it ain't going to be in white shorts. Carts are the very least of embarrassing aids that age brings into play. One of the realities of my playing group is that we need a cart to retrieve whatever we have forgotten on the previous hole.
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Rick Shefchik writes:
Just a guess, but I believe most of those who vehemently object to carts under any circumstances are relatively young and sturdy, whereas those who would like to see at least a limited use of carts are older and creakier.
Even when I was young, few would have ever called me sturdy. Now I'm neither young or sturdy.
I think carts have been bad for golf. I love that there is one place in the U.S. that actively discourages cartball. Yes, life would be easier if I could ride a cart around during a second round. Life would also be easier if I just played my rounds at a golf simulator. Neither are golf, but both are reasonable facsimiles of golf.
For those of you oldsters like myself and Rick, there are numerous solutions to making walking the second 18 easier. As Mr. Johnson mentioned earlier, lighten your bag. No rule says you have to lug around 14 clubs. Try playing with 5-6, you'll be shocked how light the bag is. Also for those little aches and pains, Oregon is a medical cannabis state.
It does seem to be an American thing: It isn't up to the individual to change, but rather the institution should change to fit the individual. How many whining about how tough it is to play 36 holes on foot have ever tried reducing the number of clubs they carry?
Cheers,
Dan King
The emblem on the necktie reserved for the members of the Royal and Ancient Golf Club of St. Andrews -- The Vatican of golf -- is of St. Andrew himself bearing the slatier cross on which, once he was captured at Patras, he was to be stretched before he was crucified. Only the Scots would have thought of celebrating a national game with the figure of a tortured saint.
--Alister Cooke
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My first round at Bandon Dunes was on the morning of 9-11-01, My wife and I played with a couple who were in their late 60's. They obviously had mecical certificates, but considering the amount of walking outside the cart that they did, they could have easily walked the course with a caddy. The point that escapes most people here is that to take the medically approved cart a caddy MUST drive it. It is not readily apparent where you can or should take the cart. Some transitions from greens to the next tees are not obvious. If left to navigate alone I am absolutely certain that people would trash the place in less than year. Don't forget the architecture was envisioned without the necessary paths or access points that carts would need. Just be thankful that Mr. keiser does allow people to have the experience with the medical certificate in hand. Count me as one who thinks the current system is perfect!
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Dan,
The weight issue is easily overcame...just use a pull cart.
Its more an issue of being on ones feet for 4-5 hours straight. I walk 18 when iI play here locally....except the really hilly places like Indian Canyon. So when playing 36 holes, thats now anywhere from 9-12 hours on your feet and that just too much for a lot of guys including me.
P.S. You know its sad when we have to talk about smoking pot to "endure" a round of golf. Maybe some people don't mind being in agony for golf, but I'm not one of them.
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Rick Shefchik writes:
Just a guess, but I believe most of those who vehemently object to carts under any circumstances are relatively young and sturdy, whereas those who would like to see at least a limited use of carts are older and creakier.
Even when I was young, few would have ever called me sturdy. Now I'm neither young or sturdy.
I think carts have been bad for golf. I love that there is one place in the U.S. that actively discourages cartball. Yes, life would be easier if I could ride a cart around during a second round. Life would also be easier if I just played my rounds at a golf simulator. Neither are golf, but both are reasonable facsimiles of golf.
For those of you oldsters like myself and Rick, there are numerous solutions to making walking the second 18 easier. As Mr. Johnson mentioned earlier, lighten your bag. No rule says you have to lug around 14 clubs. Try playing with 5-6, you'll be shocked how light the bag is. Also for those little aches and pains, Oregon is a medical cannabis state.
It does seem to be an American thing: It isn't up to the individual to change, but rather the institution should change to fit the individual. How many whining about how tough it is to play 36 holes on foot have ever tried reducing the number of clubs they carry?
I have, and I will. I thought I made it pretty clear I wasn't whining about Bandon's policy. I was just pointing out some inescapable demographic trends.
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Demographics aside, there's a pretty inescapable trend that every decade sees the game become more about carts and less about walking. There was a NLE nine-hole "executive" course (four Par 4's, five Par 3's) near my home had one modest hill that you descended on the first hole then came back up on sixth. Maybe 20 feet of elevation change. Otherwise flat, short, as easy a walk as one could ever imagine.
The last couple times I was there before it was bulldozed the average age of walking golfers was about 50-60 and the average age of cart-riding golfers was about 25 years old. The high school, college, twenty-something kids had absolutely zero interest in walking that dinky piece of property either carrying their bag or using the free pull carts. Only us old fogeys had any idea of golf being a walking activity.
Nothing to do with demographics in the larger world (folks paying several thousand bucks for a week at Bandon being a very specialized subset). The game is now about riding in a cart. Period.
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Kalen Braley writes:
So when playing 36 holes, thats now anywhere from 9-12 hours on your feet and that just too much for a lot of guys including me.
I'm still curious. Have you ever tried playing 36 carrying just 6 clubs? I think most of you would be surprised how easy walking becomes.
You know its sad when we have to talk about smoking pot to "endure" a round of golf. Maybe some people don't mind being in agony for golf, but I'm not one of them.
I don't do it to endure, I do it to enhance the round of golf. I was just offering a suggestion to those that have minor aches and pains. It works much better than aspirin, is safer and much more fun.
Rick Shefchik writes:
I thought I made it pretty clear I wasn't whining about Bandon's policy. I was just pointing out some inescapable demographic trends.
If you weren't whining, then obviously my whining comment was not addressed to you.
Cheers,
Dan King
I hasten to say to snobs from the Surrey pine-and-sand country that no invention since the corn plaster or the electric toothbrush has brought greater balm to the extremities of the senior golfer than the golfmobile, a word that will have to do for want of a better.
--Alister Cooke
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Dan is right. Anyone who can afford to go to Bandon can afford to go to an equally great cart ball course. I was being selfish for thinking anything else. I apologize.
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And to go along with Brent's comments...I don't know if I see a problem with the evolution of golf.
Hell everything in society has evolved. All of the following are obviously new to the world,,,,and I'm sure all of the following can be claimed as a downfall of society depending on who you talk to:
The internet
Owning a Cell Phone
Modern automobiles
Using a microwave
Flying on Airplanes
Modern computer based voting systems
Web based news vs papers.
Fax machines.
Twitter
Facebook
Etc, etc, etc....I can list these all night
And on GCA.com, its using carts on the course while the rest of the world says Whats the Big Deal ;)
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John Kavanaugh writes:
Dan is right. Anyone who can afford to go to Bandon can afford to go to an equally great cart ball course. I was being selfish for thinking anything else. I apologize.
My God, John, I have no idea how to respond to that! I think I'll leave it to a former U.S. President below.
Cheers,
Dan King
Golf in the interest of good health and good manners. It promotes self-restraint and affords a chance to play the man and act the gentleman.
--President Taft
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Dan,
The last time I walked 36 holes in a day would be about 12 years ago as as 30 year old. While it was exhausting, I managed despite very sore feet the next couple of days.
If I tried it now, I'm not sure if I could get out of bed the next morning. Once again, I feel golf is something to be enjoyed, not a torture test.
P.S. I think your Cannabis idea is actually a good one! ;D
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Kalen,
Last weekend I spent considerable time at the Smithsonian reviewing the changes our society has embraced over the last few hundred years. You missed perhaps the most controversial change of all. Military Drones. Some of these walkers remind me of the terrorist leaders who protest the use of drones. As the saying goes, war is war and golf is golf.
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I now have this inescapable image of the 300-pound William Howard Taft merrily wandering the golf course with a wicked Sensimilla buzz.
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One thing I have learned from this thread is that I am not the only one with legs, hips and knees that hurt. The guys I play with on golf trips seem to breeze through 7 days of 36 a day and I lay in bed at night crying like a 12 year old. Nice to know I am not the only person with bad wheels.
That said if you are listening Mike K., don't change a thing at Bandon. It is perfect. When I can't walk anymore, it will be nice to know that the next generation of golfers are experiencing it just like I used to. (lying in bed crying)
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...
The last couple times I was there before it was bulldozed the average age of walking golfers was about 50-60 and the average age of cart-riding golfers was about 25 years old. The high school, college, twenty-something kids had absolutely zero interest in walking that dinky piece of property either carrying their bag or using the free pull carts. Only us old fogeys had any idea of golf being a walking activity.
...
Sometimes you can convert those 25 year olds. We had a couple of young buddies join our club with their shared cart. The first time I met them they caught my group waiting on a par 3 tee, I asked them if they played basketball. They said yes, they love basketball. I asked them if they used a cart for their pickup games. We hit our shots and moved on. They now walk probably more than 90% of their rounds. I haven't seem them ride yet this year, and am wondering if they decided the cart barn rental was not worth it any more.
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As has been pointed out, you do not have to play 36 holes a day at Bandon. If you can't walk 72 holes in two days, don't. If you don't want to go to Bandon if you can't play 36 holes a day, go elsewhere.
An enduring image for me at Bandon is of a 75+ year old (honestly, he looked about 100) man in plus fours literally sprinting from the 18th green at Bandon Dunes to the 1st tee to play his second round of the day while we thirtysomethings trudged in after our morning 18 on the second day of our trip. This man embodied the spirit of Bandon Dunes--embrace it.
Sure, the walking can be painful--I'm thinking of a trip to Bandon soon after my ACL surgery--but the cost to the experience at Bandon of allowing carts would be too high and the fix (play fewer holes) is rather obvious.
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...
The last couple times I was there before it was bulldozed the average age of walking golfers was about 50-60 and the average age of cart-riding golfers was about 25 years old. The high school, college, twenty-something kids had absolutely zero interest in walking that dinky piece of property either carrying their bag or using the free pull carts. Only us old fogeys had any idea of golf being a walking activity.
...
Sometimes you can convert those 25 year olds. We had a couple of young buddies join our club with their shared cart. The first time I met them they caught my group waiting on a par 3 tee, I asked them if they played basketball. They said yes, they love basketball. I asked them if they used a cart for their pickup games. We hit our shots and moved on. They now walk probably more than 90% of their rounds. I haven't seem them ride yet this year, and am wondering if they decided the cart barn rental was not worth it any more.
Garland,
Besides the obvious cost factor maybe they got tired of catching the groups walking. The flow of an entire course works when everyone is either walking or riding. Even a kid can figure that out without getting another boring fable from Aesop himself.
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Couldn't find a picture of Taft both hitting the bong and golfing, but he sure looks like a guy that gave into the munchies.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_iOZH_jgeKuA/TBuT1mSFXfI/AAAAAAAAAUI/wPj2vRilRd4/s320/william_h_taft_02.jpg)
And does anyone believe he would ride around on a water buffalo without first partaking of some Maui Wowie?
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-38JjG59vZcc/Txr1hJwn8YI/AAAAAAAAABg/TCi7gCbgrbI/s760/Willam-Howard-Taft.jpg)
John Kavanaugh writes:
You missed perhaps the most controversial change of all. Military Drones. Some of these walkers remind me of the terrorist leaders who protest the use of drones. As the saying goes, war is war and golf is golf.
And cartball is cartball.
Let's not forget saran wrap. "You can look through it, you can put three olives in it, you can put 10 sandwiches in it--it's clear, it clings and it sticks."
Cheers,
Dan King
If they [presidents] can't do it to their wives, they do it to their country.
--2,000-year-old Man
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One thing I have learned from this thread is that I am not the only one with legs, hips and knees that hurt. The guys I play with on golf trips seem to breeze through 7 days of 36 a day and I lay in bed at night crying like a 12 year old. Nice to know I am not the only person with bad wheels.
That said if you are listening Mike K., don't change a thing at Bandon. It is perfect. When I can't walk anymore, it will be nice to know that the next generation of golfers are experiencing it just like I used to. (lying in bed crying)
I know Mike Keiser and he would love your attitude, trust me.
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...The flow of an entire course works when everyone is either walking or riding. Even a kid can figure that out without getting another boring fable from Aesop himself.
More BS from Barney. The flow of an entire course works when everyone understands the accepted flow and adheres to it whether walking or riding. This is more likely to occur at a private course with much repeat play by the regulars. As soon as someone that plays infrequently shows up and adheres to their own personal pace whether in cart or on foot, the flow gets upset.
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...The flow of an entire course works when everyone is either walking or riding. Even a kid can figure that out without getting another boring fable from Aesop himself.
More BS from Barney. The flow of an entire course works when everyone understands the accepted flow and adheres to it whether walking or riding. This is more likely to occur at a private course with much repeat play by the regulars. As soon as someone that plays infrequently shows up and adheres to their own personal pace whether in cart or on foot, the flow gets upset.
Garland,
Would you at least agree that sometimes that personal pace is too fast. Both walkers and riders can be guilty of a hurry up and wait attitude when a simple pace that reflects the group in front of you is more pleasing for both parties. Maybe you are fortunate not to play where cart path only or other restrictions makes some holes play less fluid than others. It is the likeness of play between groups that produces a flow like a gentle stream. Surely you enjoy that to the spastic flow of a rusty faucet.
The absolute truth of the matter is that some holes play faster for cart riders and some faster for walkers. It is only by having everyone play the same that you can prevent this accordion effect.
Keeping this on topic, this is why I fully support the notion that carts would disrupt the subtle beauty of Bandon.
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Bandon should open a par 3 course and people can walk that if they can't go 36, problem solved.
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Couldn't find a picture of Taft both hitting the bong and golfing, but he sure looks like a guy that gave into the munchies.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_iOZH_jgeKuA/TBuT1mSFXfI/AAAAAAAAAUI/wPj2vRilRd4/s320/william_h_taft_02.jpg)
And does anyone believe he would ride around on a water buffalo without first partaking of some Maui Wowie?
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-38JjG59vZcc/Txr1hJwn8YI/AAAAAAAAABg/TCi7gCbgrbI/s760/Willam-Howard-Taft.jpg)
Taft must have set back the cause of golf as exercise a good 20 years or more. He was apparently a bit tone-deaf to the impression he was making, as well: he once took on Walter Travis and vice president James S. Sherman in a best ball match in which the president's partner was a Washington golfer named Allan Lard.
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Bandon should open a par 3 course and people can walk that if they can't go 36, problem solved.
Totally agreed. Maybe have Coore and Crenshaw design it?
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Bandon should open a par 3 course and people can walk that if they can't go 36, problem solved.
Totally agreed. Maybe have Coore and Crenshaw design it?
I would think outside the box and make it a strange number of holes and if they really cared about the world they would donate the money to charity. They should send me a shirt for all these ideas.
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I am surprised shocked and stunned at the arrogance shown on this particular topic. Only just recently I saw two men riding in a cart, one of them with a virulant cancer and undergoing the most brutal of treatments. The other chap has had COPD, Cardio Myopathy, Congestive Heart Failure, and a few other things that can go wrong, not necessarily in that order. Any golfer would love to play Bandon Dunes and I am delighted that Mr. Keiser has allowed cart use. Some of you might try walking four or five miles with a catheter up your dick, it is quite unpleasant.
The two cart ballers in the eyes of many, cannot possibly be in love with the game. What a joke.
Bob
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I am surprised shocked and stunned at the arrogance shown on this particular topic. Only just recently I saw two men riding in a cart, one of them with a virulant cancer and undergoing the most brutal of treatments. The other chap has had COPD, Cardio Myopathy, Congestive Heart Failure, and a few other things that can go wrong, not necessarily in that order. Any golfer would love to play Bandon Dunes and I am delighted that Mr. Keiser has allowed cart use. Some of you might try walking four or five miles with a catheter up your dick, it is quite unpleasant.
The two cart ballers in the eyes of many, cannot possibly be in love with game. What a joke.
Bob
That's a great frickin post.
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I am not as delighted with Mr. Keiser as many here seem to be. If I am wrong please correct me. Bandon provides a limited number of carts for those with disabilities. So, it is suggested that you arrange for a cart well in advance or you may not get one despite having a tee time. Nonsense! they should provide enough carts as needed.
I have been told that it requires much more than a simple doctor's note. I know they will not accept a disability certificate for an automobile. I am not clear on what is expected, but I do believe it must be submitted well in advance. Many, many hurdles. I also know that at Cabot Links you will be required to take a caddy if they will give you a cart for being disabled. Oh great, now I must pay for a cart and also for a caddy that I don't want...Why should the disabled have to pay more, with the exception of the cost of the cart?
This is not to mention those with so called minor disabilities. I am 61 and have Metatarsalgia. Sounds serious, huh? Not really pain in the ball of my foot when walking distances. I can make it 9 holes with pain. After that it is excruciating. I do not consider this significant enough to be an ADA disability. Would Bandon allow me to use a cart for this purpose? I'd like to know as I am hopefully going to try to play as a single late this summer. Think they'll mind if I rest after every shot?
I don't have the whole answer. I do know that anyone with a auto disability placard should not have to jump thru hoops. They should be able to arrive at the course and have a cart. Advanced reservations not required. They should not have to also have a caddy. I also think that perhaps for anyone over 65 a cart should be allowed. No answers, but the current policy is not a good one.
p.s. I would love to know how many of the walker extremists have had any pain walking and their age
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Bob_Huntley writes:
The two cart ballers in the eyes of many, cannot possibly be in love with the game. What a joke.
Bob, you must be reading posts I didn't see. I haven't seen a single post that said people who needs carts for medical reasons shouldn't get them. As you mention, Bandon allows carts for such purposes. The issue is people who want carts because they prefer them to walking. Those people have countless other courses to choose from and should avoid Bandon if they want to play cartball.
Cheers,
Dan King
Golf is the only game where the worst player gets the best of it. He obtains more out of it as regards both exercise and enjoyment, for the good player gets worried over the slightest mistake, whereas the poor player makes too many mistakes to worry about them.
--David Lloyd George
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My dear Daniel,
You have been away too long, I have seen many a post that just said what I wrote. It went something like this, "You can play with the use of a cart but don't call it golf."
Bob
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Bob_Huntley writes:
The two cart ballers in the eyes of many, cannot possibly be in love with the game. What a joke.
Bob, you must be reading posts I didn't see. I haven't seen a single post that said people who needs carts for medical reasons shouldn't get them. As you mention, Bandon allows carts for such purposes. The issue is people who want carts because they prefer them to walking. Those people have countless other courses to choose from and should avoid Bandon if they want to play cartball.
Cheers,
Dan King
Golf is the only game where the worst player gets the best of it. He obtains more out of it as regards both exercise and enjoyment, for the good player gets worried over the slightest mistake, whereas the poor player makes too many mistakes to worry about them.
--David Lloyd George
Dan..what do you do with those who have significant difficulty walking long distances but are not technically disabled? As with most issues is the areas of grey that cause difficulty.
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Cliff Hamm writes:
p.s. I would love to know how many of the walker extremists have had any pain walking and their age
Well, since you asked nicely ...
I'm 54, but been told I look much older.
I have three grandkids, I'm in terrible shape, and I'm losing my hair.
There are numerous courses I'd like to play but I don't, because I know the walk would be too tough. It's sad, but I would never insist the course change to meet my needs. If I want to play them I'll have to get in shape. If I'm unwilling, then that is my problem not the golf courses.
Cliff, when you walk a golf course how many golf clubs do you carry?
Cheers,
Dan King
Walking also enables us to watch a hole unfold in front of us. To walk a course is analogous to driving a long distance rather than flying. While driving, we see the country instead of racing over it. There's a human scale that flying cannot offer.
--Lorne Rubenstein
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Cliff Hamm writes:
p.s. I would love to know how many of the walker extremists have had any pain walking and their age
Well, since you asked nicely ...
I'm 54, but been told I look much older.
I have three grandkids, I'm in terrible shape, and I'm losing my hair.
There are numerous courses I'd like to play but I don't, because I know the walk would be too tough. It's sad, but I would never insist the course change to meet my needs. If I want to play them I'll have to get in shape. If I'm unwilling, then that is my problem not the golf courses.
Cliff, hen you walk a golf course how many golf clubs do you carry?
Cheers,
Dan King
[/
Dan...I am 61. Long a traditionalist. Never wore shorts until I was 30 as a result of caddying at Baltusrol which at that time did not allow shorts. Always walked and felt walking was an integral part of the game...BUT one does age. I am in fair shape, but would say compared with the general population certainly better than average. My difficulty is not walking the course it is simply my right foot. Severe pain. I can make it 9 holes and that's about it. BTW when I walk 9 i use a push cart and don't carry any longer, so the number of clubs is irrelevant.
ps lost my hair years ago
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Bob_Huntley writes:
You have been away too long, I have seen many a post that just said what I wrote. It went something like this, "You can play with the use of a cart but don't call it golf."
I have no idea if I ever said it in the past or not, but I see a big difference between someone who is disabled and someone who just prefers cartball.
However, I might have said the golf world would be a better place without carts. I think they have been a serious detriment to the game. If I could wave a magic wand and be rid of carts then I would. Unfortunately, it would mean many disabled people wouldn't be able to play the game.
Cliff Hamm writes:
Dan..what do you do with those who have significant difficulty walking long distances but are not technically disabled? As with most issues is the areas of grey that cause difficulty.
I'd say the choice is to either get in shape, walk easier golf courses, carry fewer clubs, hire a caddy or play one of the thousands of golf courses that allow cartball. I would not say a resort on the coast of Oregon must change to meet their needs.
Cheers,
Dan King
I've been responding to too many posts in this thread. I'm running out of walking quotes.
Golf seems to me an arduous way to go for a walk. I prefer to take the dogs out.
--Princess Anne
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Walking is great. Walking is better. Walking is more true to the roots of the game.
Riding is fun. Riding is pleasant. Riding is easier.
How about a resort that requires walking yet ALLOWS riding? Is there not an available middle ground or are we just going to rail like absolutists?
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So, Dan you're most recent response indicates just play other courses. The issue is not my shape. The issue is not the number of clubs I carry. The issue is not needing a caddy. The issue is simply pain in my right foot.
BTW are you able to walk Bandon?
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Cliff...
Do you take anything to play golf?
Advil, tramadol, hydrocodone, oxycodone...anything like that.
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Cliff Hamm writes:
Dan...I am 61. Long a tradidtionalist. Never wore shorts until I was 30 as a result of caddying at Baltusrol which at that time did not allow shorts. Always walked and felt walking was an integral part of the game...BUT one does age. I am in fair shape, but would say compared with the general population certainly better than average. My difficulty is not walking the course it is simply my right foot. Severe pain. I can make it 9 holes and that's about it. BTW when I walk 9 i use a push cart and don't caddy any longer, so the number of clubs is irrelevant...
Funny thing I am about as non-traditional as they come about everything but golf.
If I want to play Baltusrol can I just show up at the counter, pay my fees and play the course? If I want to play Baltusrol I have to do some jumping through hoops prior to showing up. If you want to ride a cart at Bandon you will also have to jump through some hoops ahead of time. I'm betting you will probably have a much easier time getting a cart at Bandon than I will getting a tee-time at Baltusrol. What makes one hoop jumping hunky dory and one an abomination?
Terry Lavin writes:
How about a resort that requires walking yet ALLOWS riding?
I don't know what that means. It would seem any course that requires walking by definition would not allow riding.
Cliff Hamm writes:
BTW are you able to walk Bandon?
Last time I was there playing a second 18 was tough. Before I go back again I will better prepare. My age is definitely catching up to me.
Cheers,
Dan King
If you want to take long walks, take long walks. If you want to hit things with a stick, hit things with a stick. But there's no excuse for combining the two and putting the results on TV. Golf is not so much a sport as an assault to lawns.
--National Lampoon
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Dan.. your comments are now approaching absurdity. You're comparing access to an elite club with getting a cart at a public course. Please.... I mentioned Baltusrol to show my roots. There is NO comparison between a private club like Baltusrol and Bandon. Of course you jump thru hoops to access an exclusive club. I would never expect anyhthing less. Why tho should the disabled have to jump thru hoops to access a cart at a public course??? Your comments are beyond ridiculous....and yes, you are able to walk 18. Walking 36 was tough. Of course you should walk...do you have no understanding for those who can't?????
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Cliff...
Do you take anything to play golf?
Advil, tramadol, hydrocodone, oxycodone...anything like that.
Mac-I am just wondering what the point of your question is.
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Cliff...
Do you take anything to play golf?
Advil, tramadol, hydrocodone, oxycodone...anything like that.
Mac-I am just wondering what the point of your question is.
Why?
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My knees have gotten to the point where I either walk with a caddie or ride a cart. Even a pushcart up hills has caused me problems. This isn't an issue for me at Bandon as they have some of the best caddies around available. When I can no longer walk the courses I'll either get a medical excuse or simply play one of the several hundred other great courses this country has to offer with a cart. Bandon is singular, Bandon sets an example, and it is a good and important one. It's not about being exclusionary. It's about a higher calling and a special mileu that does not, for the most part, include carts. F*$#ing deal with it.
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Terry,
I just suffered a complex tear of my Meniscus making it almost impossible to walk 18 holes.
I can play a decent round provided I have a cart.
Years ago, many years ago, at Montclair Golf Club, if you wanted to have a cart, you had to have a bona fide letter from a doctor explaining your condition and why you needed a cart.
I would think that medical exceptions make sense.
Why deprive someone of playing the course because they are limited by a medical condition beyond their influence.
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Cliff Hamm writes:
Dan.. your comments are now approaching absurdity.
That's only because your questions are absurd.
You're comparing access to an elite club with getting a cart at a public course.
I'm comparing access to two different golf courses. You didn't want to jump through hoops to get a cart because of your disability. You want Bandon to go out and purchase a fleet of carts so they will be sure to have one when you just so happen to show up. And you call me absurd?
Please.... I mentioned Baltusrol to show my roots. There is NO comparison between a private club like Baltusrol and Bandon.
Green grass, 18 holes per golf course, bunkers, hazards, tees, etc... I'd say their similarities are much more prevalent than their differences. Comparing Bandon to the Eiffel Tower, and they would be tough to compare. Comparing Baltusrol and Bandon is much easier.
Of course you jump thru hoops to access an exclusive club. I would never expect anyhthing less. Why tho should the disabled have to jump thru hoops to access a cart at a public course???
Because those are the rules the course has created ... just like Baltusrol created rules for how to get a tee time. I'm still failing to see why one is cool the other not so.
Your comments are beyond ridiculous....and yes, you are able to walk 18. Walking 36 was tough. Of course you should walk...do you have no understanding for those who can't?Huh??
The choice is to not screw up a course I love versus giving you quick access to a course you might show up to about once a year. I'm going to side with not screwing up Bandon, just as you seem to think it is okay for Baltusrol to keep out riffraff such as me.
Both courses have rules that keep out some golfers. Calling the comparison beyond ridiculous doesn't address why you think one is fine and the other not.
Cheers,
Dan King
All I've got against golf is it takes you so far from the clubhouse.
--Eric Linklater
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Pat....seems like a change of heart from my remembrance of other threads on disabilities and carts. Nothing like it hitting home for folks to see the light...
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I wonder if Casey Martin is reading this thread?
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Dan...I will refrain from getting into a conversation that has no logic to it... BTW the conversation is about cart access and not the exclusive nature of American golf clubs.
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Cliff Hamm writes:
BTW the conversation is about cart access and not the exclusive nature of American golf clubs.
Please be sure to give me directions prior to my jumping into a discussion with you. I'd hate to ever use analogies that you find disagreeable. If you don't want to put a list of forbidden arguments at the bottom of every post, perhaps just send me a general list via email and I will tack it to my bulletin board.
Cheers,
Dan King
Many play golf, and one odd effect of that persuit is that they return to work manifestly stupider than they were. It is, I think, the company of other golfers.
--G.W. Lyttleton
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I am a great supporter of the Paralympic Games. It’s a great idea and gives the participants the opportunity to give their best. However the organisers have used some common sense by addressing the issues first and foremost calling it what it is Paralympic Games. They are not the Olympics Games.
It’s good to see if you have a medical condition or suffering the ravages of time and age that there is a facility to play a game. Why not make the same adjustment with the naming after the way the game is played, if you ride rather than walk, its cart golf etc,. After all it is a different game, yes a variation of golf but not as the riders receive an unfair advantage in remaining fresher thus allowing for stronger strokes.
The stress and strain of Walking needs to be analysed and noted, then compared to the same stress/strain levels of riding a cart with an open and honest disclosure made of the results. If by riding the player benefits then a ruling should be balance the equation with penalty strokes and the game officially known as Cart Golf or cart balling.
But many want their cake as well as eat it. The abuse of using the cart has become a serious problem in that many who use carts never accept their own weakness, preferring to embarrass others to join in and jump on board. It reminds me of days when smoking was regarded as cool, that others had to breath in your smoke, yet many smokers and alas non-smokers never survived to old age. All because the weak and selfish in our society would prefer us not to question their commitment let alone resolve to a once great walking game called golf
So Bob if you ride you are playing cart ball or cart golf it’s not Golf
Yes it is right to have facilities for those with age or medical handicaps, but not at the expense of creating Non Walking Golf courses. That IMHO is a total betrayal of the game of golf.
I wish you a good night
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Perhaps addressing the issue without analogies/changing the topic would be a prudent course of action..... I assume you continue to believe that if you are not totally out of shape, do not carry too many clubs, do not require a caddy, but cannot walk a course you should not be allowed access? BTW not providing a cart equates to no access
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Dan.. your comments are now approaching absurdity. You're comparing access to an elite club with getting a cart at a public course. Please.... I mentioned Baltusrol to show my roots. There is NO comparison between a private club like Baltusrol and Bandon. Of course you jump thru hoops to access an exclusive club. I would never expect anyhthing less. Why tho should the disabled have to jump thru hoops to access a cart at a public course??? Your comments are beyond ridiculous....and yes, you are able to walk 18. Walking 36 was tough. Of course you should walk...do you have no understanding for those who can't?????
Wonder who's being absurd. Do they play golf at Baltusrol? I have to wonder why those that have access to Baltusrol would worry much about not having access to Bandon due to infirmaries. Dan certainly has an infirmary when it comes to playing Baltusrol.
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Terry,
the game of golf is refreshingly absolute, your are either in the hole or not, no mediation required.
Sam and Sean,
Hilarious!!!!!!!! maybe they'll build that thing someday, and maybe another.
How about a muni too south of of town.
Or just play nine holes at Bandon, or 7 at Pacific.
Pete,
+1
Garland,
I'm glad we agree on something.
Mac,
Total admiration and empathy.
Casey Martin,
You may ride a cart.
thanks
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Walking is great. Walking is better. Walking is more true to the roots of the game.
Riding is fun. Riding is pleasant. Riding is easier.
How about a resort that requires walking yet ALLOWS riding? Is there not an available middle ground or are we just going to rail like absolutists?
Terry, in the America of today, I fear that allowing carts will, like Gresham's Law, eventually mean most ride. I don't know how you REQUIRE walking but ALLOW carts. I love the fact that everybody walks at Bandon, although I am personally having a harder time walking that second 18.
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Bill,
I don't know either, but I postulated that one could only ride in the afternoon if one walked in the morning, excluding the medical crew.
I have no real axe to grind here, just stirring the pot.
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Is it me or does Bandon not have any information about what is required to get a cart on their site? If explicit information is not provided why not?
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Cliff Hamm writes:
Perhaps addressing the issue without analogies
I'd prefer you tell me all the rules up front. But I have tacked up "No Analogies when arguing with Cliff Hamm" on my bulletin board. Let me know if some other restriction comes up.
I assume you continue to believe that if you are not totally out of shape, do not carry too many clubs, do not require a caddy, but cannot walk a course you should not be allowed access? BTW not providing a cart equates to no access
I'd check with the course to see what it takes to use one of their rare carts. I have no idea what they require. But since you don't want to do any pre-arranging then, yes, for you, no access to Bandon Dunes resort.
Cheers,
Dan King
Oh golf is for smellin' heather and cut grass and walkin fast across the countryside and feelin' the wind and watchin' the sun go down and seein' yer friends hit good shots and hittin' some yerself. It's love and feelin' the splendor o' the good world.
--Agatha McNaughton (Golf in the Kingdom)
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Bill,
I don't know either, but I postulated that one could only ride in the afternoon if one walked in the morning, excluding the medical crew.
I have no real axe to grind here, just stirring the pot.
Are you Slytherin or Gryffindor?
Love the caddy program at Bandon!
Just think of some of those guys double bagging it for 36, LOL.
Love Bandon as it is, no matter how many holes I could play, but that's just me.
Crazy huh?
thanks
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Gray,
Just total admiration and empathy. ;D
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Cliff Hamm writes:
Perhaps addressing the issue without analogies
I'd prefer you tell me all the rules up front. But I have tacked up "No Analogies when arguing with Cliff Hamm" on my bulletin board. Let me know if some other restriction comes up.
I assume you continue to believe that if you are not totally out of shape, do not carry too many clubs, do not require a caddy, but cannot walk a course you should not be allowed access? BTW not providing a cart equates to no access
I'd check with the course to see what it takes to use one of their rare carts. I have no idea what they require. But since you don't want to do any pre-arranging then, yes, for you, no access to Bandon Dunes resort.
Cheers,
Dan King
Oh golf is for smellin' heather and cut grass and walkin fast across the countryside and feelin' the wind and watchin' the sun go down and seein' yer friends hit good shots and hittin' some yerself. It's love and feelin' the splendor o' the good world.
--Agatha McNaughton (Golf in the Kingdom)
Another rule you may want to use is that if you're going to quote me use the WHOLE quote:
Perhaps addressing the issue without analogies/changing the topic would be a prudent course of action
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PS - One of my favorite golf hats is the official Bandon Dunes "Looper" hat.
PPS - If you can't walk 36, play in the morning and discover the SW Oregon area. Last time I was there, we played 36, 18, 36. On that 18 day, we played early, drove 1 hour south to Gold Beach and took the jet boat ride up the Rogue River.
Loved the golf, but I can recall everything about that trip - the seals, the bear, the elk, the bald eagles, the otters, the scenery, etc.. There really is more to Oregon than Bandon!
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So there should not be one resort or presumably even one solitary golf course in the USA which is designed, operated and maintained entirely to provide the best experience to golfers who are walking. That's what I'm hearing. Even if they provide a cart to anyone who requires one for medical reasons. That's not enough. Every last sod who wants to play that course with his ass in a golf cart must be allowed to do so, is that the position?
If as a result the place is soon overrun with perfectly able-bodied young and middle-aged golfers driving carts. Even if the result is a far poorer experience for those who do want to walk. Even if the result is poorer turf condition. It doesn't matter. Indulging anyone and everyone who for any reason wants to drive a golf cart around the course is the priority that trumps all other concerns.
And then if someone happens to point out what an extreme and intolerant point of view this is and what the completely predictable results will be, borne out by the clear evidence of every other course in the country over these past few decades, then that person is a Nazi who hates disabled people and wants sick old men to be barred from golf. Is that the official line?
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Dan King:
I very much support the perspective you expressed in this thread, especially your point about carts being available at 99% of the places you can play golf, but still the cart crowd insists it should be 100%.
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Gray,
Just total admiration and empathy. ;D
hahaha
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Brent:
I don't know what thread you're reading, but the overall tenor here is that it would be a mistake to change the policy at Bandon.
Which doesn't surprise me, given the people who typically post on gca. I had thought the suggestion would be viewed as heresy. Mike Keiser probably feels the same way. This is just anecdotal, amateur research.
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If any or my responses have implied that carts should be allowed for everyone I apologize. That was not my intent.
I do, however, have sensitivity for those with disabilities and feel they should have access. Such access should not require 2 months notice or x rays.
Middle aged folks and able bodied young men can and should walk. I was once one of them and that was not that long ago. Back then I could not have imagined playing golf anyway but walking and carrying.
BUT life changes. Carts should be available for those that need them. There are many grey areas. The folks with arthritis who are not technically disabled, but really can't walk 6 miles. Etc. etc.
That is my only point. If you can walk you should and must. If you can't carts should be available without too much hassle.
Tim... I find it insulting that you call it the cart crowd. It is the unable to walk crowd. One day you will hopefully realize the difference.
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I do not expect most on here to say yes. I am one of those guys. the only way I can go to Bandon again is with a cart. Unfortunately that is the way it is and I am not happy about it. The game is meant to be played walking but medical issues are medical issues. I actually thought Mike had a few carts for guys like me but I am not positive. I hope as a general rule it stays a walking only place with a few exceptions which rihc noted.
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I do not expect most on here to say yes. I am one of those guys. the only way I can go to Bandon again is with a cart. Unfortunately that is the way it is and I am not happy about it. The game is meant to be played waling but medical issues are medical issues. I actually thought Mike had a few carts for guys like me but I am not positive. I hope as a general rule it stays a walking only place with a few exceptions which rihc noted.
He has a cart for you. Guaranteed. And for others in need. Which will surely remain the case.
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Cliff,
The problem is, you don't get to make the rules. You can't say that carts must be available on demand with no questions asked and then fix it by saying " If you can walk you should and must". Because they won't and they don't. They rent the cart and ride in it. That's the essence of the problem.
You can't have a walking-friendly, almost-all-walking, pristine tire-track-free golf course that lets anyone who asks have a cart on demand.
You can't have a fleet of carts sitting there and ask "riding or walking" when someone books their tee time and magically find that the 2% of customers who are in need of a cart are the only ones who hop in and ride.
What you'll get is the same 60% or 70% of rounds played in carts that is the average everywhere in the country. With the tire tracks and all that. At least the place will still be routed nicely for a walking round, give or take the inevitable workarounds to manage and direct cart traffic. Just like any other really nice golf resort.
But it's OK. We wouldn't want someone who needs a cart to feel singled out or unwelcome. And nobody really needs one place on the continent that manages not to have all the cart-related side effects to deal with. It's just a megre little wish from that tiny minority of us who get a kick out of that kind of thing. An indulgence. We'll enjoy it while it lasts at Bandon and then reminisce about it one day when it's gone. Fortunately, that day is no time soon by all accounts. But we all know it's coming, just not when...
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Terry...do you know the requirements for a cart and if prior notice is required? What if you're a single walk on and have not made a tee time? Can you still get a cart with a simple note from a doctor saying you can't walk? I have not been able to find that info on the web site....thanks
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Just contact the GM Hank Hickox and he'll steer you the right way.
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Cliff,
The problem is, you don't get to make the rules. You can't say that carts must be available on demand with no questions asked and then fix it by saying " If you can walk you should and must". Because they won't and they don't. They rent the cart and ride in it. That's the essence of the problem.
You can't have a walking-friendly, almost-all-walking, pristine tire-track-free golf course that lets anyone who asks have a cart on demand.
You can't have a fleet of carts sitting there and ask "riding or walking" when someone books their tee time and magically find that the 2% of customers who are in need of a cart are the only ones who hop in and ride.
What you'll get is the same 60% or 70% of rounds played in carts that is the average everywhere in the country. With the tire tracks and all that. At least the place will still be routed nicely for a walking round, give or take the inevitable workarounds to manage and direct cart traffic. Just like any other really nice golf resort.
But it's OK. We wouldn't want someone who needs a cart to feel singled out or unwelcome. And nobody really needs one place on the continent that manages not to have all the cart-related side effects to deal with. It's just a megre little wish from that tiny minority of us who get a kick out of that kind of thing. An indulgence. We'll enjoy it while it lasts at Bandon and then reminisce about it one day when it's gone. Fortunately, that day is no time soon by all accounts. But we all know it's coming, just not when...
I certainly have no problem with being an essentially walking only course. Key word is essentially.
Shouldn't it be possible to make a tee time and provide a doctor's note for a cart? If I'm a walk on shouldn't I be able to bring my note and get a cart? Why should that be such a big deal? It's that simple...but don't make me take a caddy so that the round now costs me a cart fee plus caddy, which would be well north of $100. That is not a reasonable accomodation. It is bad enough not being able to walk without having to pay excess fees for things (caddy on a cart) that are not needed.
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Cliff Hamm writes:
Another rule you may want to use is that if you're going to quote me use the WHOLE quote:
Perhaps addressing the issue without analogies/changing the topic would be a prudent course of action
In general I don't quote everything posted by people, but only the portions that apply to me or something I am posting about. Since I have not changed the subject in this thread I figured that was intended for others and not me.
Is that another rule -- that I must quote everything you post regardless how meaningless or absurd? I do have a tack ready and waiting.
Cheers,
Dan King
I might repeat to myself, slowly and soothingly, a list of quotations beautiful from minds profound; if I can remember any of the damn things.
-- Dorothy Parker
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It appears Bandon is doing quite well. Their tee sheets are pretty full, and prices keep going up.
I've seen a lot of people giving reasons why they wish Bandon would allow carts. How it would make THEIR OWN lives easier. No one has given a remotely compelling reason why Mike Keiser might want to allow carts.
Can someone please explain why BANDON should want to allow cart play?
I wish Bandon would move the entire resort to Cincinnati, charge 20 bucks, allow me to take a cart, and close the course down to everyone else so that I could zip around and play 144 holes a day. I understand that it makes no sense whatsoever for them to make that choice though.
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Cliff, why should the course trust you to know where to take a cart when it has no paths and was designed to be walking only? Why shouldn't you have to take a caddy to ensure that you drive the cart in appropriate areas? Realize that I'm using the universal you, and not trying to insult your personal cart driving skills.
Golf is still an athletic endeavor, and Bandon is a privately owned complex. They're not obligated to make accommodations anymore than Mt. Whitney is obligated to put in an escalator to the top. If I owned the course, I'd probably try to make reasonable accommodations to ensure players with disabilities could still play. But I don't own it, and I can't begrudge Keiser & Co. if they disagree. I'm sure it's frustrating, just like it's frustrating to me that Augusta won't offer limited public play, but I just have to deal with it and play at the literally thousands of other places that will allow me through their gates.
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Can someone please explain why BANDON should want to allow cart play?
Because of compassion for those unable to walk 18 holes
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Can someone please explain why BANDON should want to allow cart play?
Because of compassion for those unable to walk 18 holes
Just like the tony clubs should have compassion for those that have not been able to make a bazillion dollars and do appropriate womb diving?
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Jason..they are required to make accommodations. ADA requires reasonable accommodations. The key is reasonable. An ambiguous word that keeps the lawyers employed and the courts busy.
The question of trust is a tough one. Bandon is unique but any time a golfer has a court they must be trusted to obey the cart signs. Don't get too close to the greens, par 3 only cart path only, etc.
I'm not sure that Bandon is so unique that a caddy needs to be required. Is it possible this is just another way to limit cart use even when legitimate for the disabled? I dk. I do know that an extra $100 for someone to tell me how to drive a cart seems excessive.
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Cliff Hamm writes:
Because of compassion for those unable to walk 18 holes
And yet you have no compassion for those that want a single U.S. golf resort where they don't have to fight with cartballers.
Cheers,
Dan King
Ye're makin' a great mistake if ye think the gemme is meant for the shots. The gemme is meant for walkin'.
--Shivas Irons
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Can someone please explain why BANDON should want to allow cart play?
Because of compassion for those unable to walk 18 holes
Just like the tony clubs should have compassion for those that have not been able to make a bazillion dollars and do appropriate womb diving?
Not sure what you mean by womb diving.... Again, the analogy is bogus. We're talking disabilities versus access to exclusive clubs. Would you rather not be accepted into ANGC or not be able to walk? They are not the same.
That is not to say that I believe that the American private golf club model is ideal. But that is a separate conversation. I just don't get the connection between private exclusiveness and carts for the disabled.
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Cliff Hamm writes:
Because of compassion for those unable to walk 18 holes
And yet you have no compassion for those that want a single U.S. golf resort where they don't have to fight with cartballers.
Cheers,
Dan King
Ye're makin' a great mistake if ye think the gemme is meant for the shots. The gemme is meant for walkin'.
--Shivas Irons
Dan..I'm not sure what you don't get about people with disabilities having access to carts. We're not talking "cartballers". We're talking that those unable to walk should be able to use a cart. Why is that so controversial?
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Cliff, my understanding is that courses are required to provide accessible golf carts if they also provide golf carts to players without disabilities. I'm not aware that a course which doesn't provide carts to anyone is required to provide carts for players with disabilities.
I agree, though, that it's nice for Bandon to provide carts for people with disabilities. They do this already. So what are we talking about, exactly?
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Dan King:
I find it frightening that people don't see your point. Those who desire a cart are accommodated almost everywhere one can go, but if someone wants to create a place like Bandon, those who don't like it scream discrimination, even when a genuine medical situation is exempt fom the walking only rule.
You are right. The elephant's nose isn't just inside the tent, he has torn it down altogether.
Mackenzie was right. Walking a golf course is the healthy thing to do. Kudos to MK for creating and maintaining one of the few places that promote it.
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I guess I am having a hard time figuring out what all the bickering is about. We have two groups of people here. One is saying "Bandon should remain how it is." the other group is saying "they should allow carts for those who are not physically able to walk the round." the funny thing is you are all arguing the same point and that is the status quo.
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I guess I am having a hard time figuring out what all the bickering is about. We have two groups of people here. One is saying "Bandon should remain how it is." the other group is saying "they should allow carts for those who are not physically able to walk the round." the funny thing is you are all arguing the same point and that is the status quo.
People love to bicker on GCA, it's the ultimate internet dick measuring contest.
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I guess I am having a hard time figuring out what all the bickering is about. We have two groups of people here. One is saying "Bandon should remain how it is." the other group is saying "they should allow carts for those who are not physically able to walk the round." the funny thing is you are all arguing the same point and that is the status quo.
People love to bicker on GCA, it's the ultimate internet dick measuring contest.
Hahaha! That made me chuckle! Thanks for making my night. :D
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Cliff Hamm writes:
Dan..I'm not sure what you don't get about people with disabilities having access to carts. We're not talking "cartballers". We're talking that those unable to walk should be able to use a cart. Why is that so controversial?
People with disabilities can play at Bandon, so obviously you are not talking about them. I know they can because I've seen them play. You keep asking what it takes, but are unwilling to even make a phone call to find out. Your lack of interest in doing anything ahead of time reduces the amount of compassion I have for you. I doubt other people with disabilities feel they should get to demand a cart whenever they want without making prearrangements.
If they open up the cart barn to anyone who wants a cart, or is too tired to play a second 18 or don't want to be too tired to party at night, then they might as well put in the cart paths. You keep saying you are not arguing for those, but only people like you. But come up with a rule that they can apply to you that will not apply to those less deserving and still keeps the carts down to a bare minimum.
This is not my first rodeo (hopefully that isn't considered an analogy.) I know for a fact once a course liberalizes a cart policy, they become a cartball course. It has happened countless times. We have decades of experience and aren't anywhere near as naïve as we were years ago.
If Bandon were to become a cartball course I will stop making the drive. Where is your compassion for me?
Cheers,
Dan King
Ye see, tha' man got to be famous heer for his walkin'. Twas said tha' if ye played along wi' him for very long ye'd get the spirit o' it yersel' and learn to enjoy each and every step. 'Twas said tha' he sometimes forgot his shots, the walkin' got to be so good. Had to be reminded by his caddie to hit the ball.
--Shivas Irons
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Cliff, my understanding is that courses are required to provide accessible golf carts if they also provide golf carts to players without disabilities. I'm not aware that a course which doesn't provide carts to anyone is required to provide carts for players with disabilities.
I agree, though, that it's nice for Bandon to provide carts for people with disabilities. They do this already. So what are we talking about, exactly?
The American with Disabilities Act requires reasonable accommodations for places of public accommodation. That includes all public courses but also private courses if the public has access to any extent such as those that have outings, tournaments, etc. The reasonable accommodation for Bandon is to provide carts. My 'problem' is that they seem, I do not know for sure, to put up too many hurdles - caddy required, not enough carts so you must have advance notice. In essence Bandon must allow carts for those with disabilities. It is the law.
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I guess I am having a hard time figuring out what all the bickering is about. We have two groups of people here. One is saying "Bandon should remain how it is." the other group is saying "they should allow carts for those who are not physically able to walk the round." the funny thing is you are all arguing the same point and that is the status quo.
People love to bicker on GCA, it's the ultimate internet dick measuring contest.
Hahaha! That made me chuckle! Thanks for making my night. :D
Sadly it's the truth.
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Stephen Davis writes:
I guess I am having a hard time figuring out what all the bickering is about. We have two groups of people here. One is saying "Bandon should remain how it is." the other group is saying "they should allow carts for those who are not physically able to walk the round." the funny thing is you are all arguing the same point and that is the status quo.
I'm quoting Cliff's entire post. Read what he wrote and tell me if he wants the status quo or significant changes to Bandon policy:
I am not as delighted with Mr. Keiser as many here seem to be. If I am wrong please correct me. Bandon provides a limited number of carts for those with disabilities. So, it is suggested that you arrange for a cart well in advance or you may not get one despite having a tee time. Nonsense! they should provide enough carts as needed.
I have been told that it requires much more than a simple doctor's note. I know they will not accept a disability certificate for an automobile. I am not clear on what is expected, but I do believe it must be submitted well in advance. Many, many hurdles. I also know that at Cabot Links you will be required to take a caddy if they will give you a cart for being disabled. Oh great, now I must pay for a cart and also for a caddy that I don't want...Why should the disabled have to pay more, with the exception of the cost of the cart?
This is not to mention those with so called minor disabilities. I am 61 and have Metatarsalgia. Sounds serious, huh? Not really pain in the ball of my foot when walking distances. I can make it 9 holes with pain. After that it is excruciating. I do not consider this significant enough to be an ADA disability. Would Bandon allow me to use a cart for this purpose? I'd like to know as I am hopefully going to try to play as a single late this summer. Think they'll mind if I rest after every shot?
I don't have the whole answer. I do know that anyone with a auto disability placard should not have to jump thru hoops. They should be able to arrive at the course and have a cart. Advanced reservations not required. They should not have to also have a caddy. I also think that perhaps for anyone over 65 a cart should be allowed. No answers, but the current policy is not a good one.
p.s. I would love to know how many of the walker extremists have had any pain walking and their age
Cheers,
Dan King
I noticed ye hardly pay attention to the walkin' part. Well that's too bad. Not many people do. "tis a shame, 'tis a rotten shame, for if ye can enjoy the walkin', ye can probably enjoy the other times in yer life when ye're in between. And that's most o' the time; wouldn' ye say?
--Shivas Irons
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I think the interesting thing is is Cliff is arguing over hearsay. His argument states that he has heard that it is more difficult than just having a note. However, it may just be that simple. I know that was the case for Chambers Bay. When I took my dad to Chambers Bay, I enquired about what was necessary for him to ride a cart and their response was "we are like Bandon in that you must have a doctors note explaining the reason he is unable to walk. Then you must have a caddie drive the cart, so the cart fee is the same as the caddy fee." If Bandon is like Chambers, which I was led to believe it is, then there are not two fees, just the one.
I have played Bandon when the group in front of us was using a cart. So it is not impossibly difficult as some have made it out to be.
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You were absolutely correct. In an ideal world I would love to see them expand their cart policy I would like to see carts allowed for those with lesser disabilities but only for those who are unable to walk a golf course.
I am not talking about those unable to walk 36.. I am not talking about those who only want to play cart ball. iam talking about those in the gray area, who do not have a disability serious enough to meet ADA requirements, what are still unable to walk the golf course.
I am also talking about those with disabilities who are required to pay a cart fee as well as a caddie fee. This just doesn't seem right. It also does not seem right that those with disabilities must arrange for a cart so far in advance of when they will play. Yes, you may not agree, but I do feel cart should be available at all times for those with disabilities.
I stand corrected if it is only the caddy fee with te cart. I still, however, don't understand why one should have to pay more than a cart fee because of the disability.
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I really don't want to quote your entire post. Anybody want to see what other brilliance comes from Cliff, just scroll a little bit up.
Cliff Hamm writes:
In essence Bandon must allow carts for those with disabilities. It is the law.
And it does. The ADA goes to a lot of trouble to define disabilities. You admit you do not have an ADA disability, yet you want Bandon to not just supply you with a cart, but ensure they always have a cart waiting for you on the chance you will show up.
Cheers,
Dan King
You play with some guys and they take two hours to watch 60 minutes. But everybody's different. That's why they make wallpaper. I hurry everything. I live in the fast lane. I'm the fastest eating person in the world. In my house, the last one to finish did the dishes, and I never did the dishes.
--Chi Chi Rodriguez
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Cliff,
I play 95% of my rounds in a cart. As the only avid cart rider on this site I can assure you, that handicapped or able bodied, we can not be trusted. Hey, if you have never played Bandon pay for the caddie as I am sure he will do more than just babysit.
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This will be my last reply but just to clarify. The inability to walk a golf course would not necessarily be considered a disability under the American with disabilities act. One would need a cart, however, obviously to play Bandon under those circumstances.
I might add Dan that your sarcasm in referring to my post as brilliant is most appreciated. it is those type of comments that in my opinion have led to this site not being what it once was.
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Cliff,
I play 95% of my rounds in a cart. As the only avid cart rider on this site I can assure you, that handicapped or able bodied, we can not be trusted. Hey, if you have never played Bandon pay for the caddie as I am sure he will do more than just babysit.
I don't know that I would consider myself an avid cart rider but it is what it is. So you are not alone. I will certainly give your words of advice for a caddie serious consideration. How can I not? I am an ex caddie and my son continues to Caddie
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Cliff, here's my source on ADA requirements for carts. See third bullet point on page 2 and last paragraph on page 4. It states very clearly that accessible carts need only be provided when carts are provided for able-bodied golfers. http://www.mobilitygolf.com/advocacy/2008_TITLE_III.pdf
It may not be the best source of truth, and if you have a better source please share it. But based on what I've seen, carts are not required for people with disabilities unless they're also available to people without them. Otherwise, I can think of several very inexpensive "honor jar" courses that are operating illegally.
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Cliff, here's my source on ADA requirements for carts. See third bullet point on page 2 and last paragraph on page 4. It states very clearly that accessible carts need only be provided when carts are provided for able-bodied golfers. http://www.mobilitygolf.com/advocacy/2008_TITLE_III.pdf
It may not be the best source of truth, and if you have a better source please share it. But based on what I've seen, carts are not required for people with disabilities unless they're also available to people without them. Otherwise, I can think of several very inexpensive "honor jar" courses that are operating illegally.
Jason.... Said I was not going to reply or post on this thread anymore but your comments are well taken. I believe you're incorrect but don't know for sure. It's getting late but I will do some research.
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Cliff Hamm writes:
This will be my last reply
Attack and retreat. Guess I can say whatever I want now. I can even use analogies.
I might add Dan that your sarcasm in referring to my post as brilliant is most appreciated. it is those type of comments that in my opinion have led to this site not being what it once was.
If you were still around I'd ask you if sarcasm is also on the list?
I've been around this site since day No. 1. A healthy dose of sarcasm has always been part of this site. Also, while it is hardly civil behavior, calling someone's argument absurd without rebuttal has also been part of the site.
You are also holding up a fine tradition of attack and retreat.
Cheers,
Dan King
A child of five could understand this. Fetch me a child of five.
--Groucho Marx
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Cliff,
I don't see the issue.
1. Having to plan ahead for use of a cart- Almost everyone who plays at Bandon plans ahead. It's in the middle of nowhere and the tee sheet is usually full months in advance. This is the case at most GB&I clubs as I understand it.
2. Having to take a caddie- This is my exact personal condition. I can only walk the course without causing pain or injury to my knees and/or back by taking a caddie. I can no longer carry or even use a pushcart. The caddies are excellent. A large majority of rounds at Bandon are played with caddies I believe. If I'm concerned about the additional cost or the hassle there are thousands of other golf courses I can play instead, many of them good to excellent, including my club. Bandon has four of the best courses in the world. It's actually a bargain compared to many other high end resorts with famous courses; I don't expect it to be cheap. Furthermore, as stated above, the courses have not been designed for carts beyond the minor turf wear of a few additional carts, around greens, transitions, etc. So to require a caddie who knows exactly where a cart can and can't be driven doesn't seem at all onerous from the point of view of the resort and everyone who values Bandon as it is, without additional signage, paths, additional carts, etc.
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Jason..they are required to make accommodations. ADA requires reasonable accommodations. The key is reasonable. An ambiguous word that keeps the lawyers employed and the courts busy.
The question of trust is a tough one. Bandon is unique but any time a golfer has a court they must be trusted to obey the cart signs. Don't get too close to the greens, par 3 only cart path only, etc.
I'm not sure that Bandon is so unique that a caddy needs to be required. Is it possible this is just another way to limit cart use even when legitimate for the disabled? I dk. I do know that an extra $100 for someone to tell me how to drive a cart seems excessive.
This is where the slippery slope begins.
An accomodation(cart) is provided for those in need (as it should be)
but then there are players who feel another accomodation be made and they not be required to take a caddy.
Pretty soon you have signs and paths all over the place guiding the player who won't take a caddie but require a cart, cluttering up the experience for the people who have had no accomodation made for them.
and don't think for second people know where to drive on a nonpathed,nonsigned links course.
Note:if truly disabled, the cart should be free-to mitigate the caddy fee requirement.
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I am a bit confused on what is going on here.
I thought Terry asked our opinions if Bandon should allow carts for everyone. He said in his opening post how great it would be to ride your last 18 of the day.
But then we launch into a food fight over people with disabilities, ADA, on all that stuff. Well, I am officially disabled. Car sticker, doctors notes, all the "official" stuff. I've contacted Bandon about playing there when my issues were at their worst, 2009. Here is their response...
Dear Mr. Plumart,
Thank you for your interest in Bandon Dunes Golf Resort and your email inquire. Yes all of our courses are walking only, we have a couple of carts for guests who have disabilities that are recognized by the Amercian Disabilities Act only, prior approval is needed. It is usually wise to book your tee times and then contact XXX at XXX-XXX-XXXX for information & procedures on cart approvals.
Thank You
Bandon Dunes Golf Resort
888-345-6008
Doesn't this fit into Terry's idea of being a walking only resort and allowing riding?
Dan King/Melvyn/and all people on that side of the argument should be happy.
And all disabled people should be happy and served as well.
If you aren't fully disabled, but experience pain while playing...there are answers for that as well. See your doctor.
I see this as Bandon being perfect, again. Walking only, but allows carts as needed.
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Doesn't this fit into Terry's idea of being a walking only resort and allowing riding?
Mac,
No, Terry's idea (floated for amateur research purposes) was for Bandon to allow riding for non-disabled persons. If I read Terry correctly, one of the main reasons in favor of allowing riding would be to cater to the aging babyboomer population of golfers. I find much of generalizing about generations to be pop psychology fluff, but this is consistent with the critique of babyboomers--they always want to change the rules for their own selfish interests.
I sympathize with those who have difficulty walking, while not being officially disabled, but Bandon (if it's going to remain walking-only) has to draw a line somewhere. I have no idea how they administer their rules. One hopes they are reasonable, without being too permissive.
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Mac Plumart writes:
Dan King/Melvyn/and all people on that side of the argument should be happy.
I can't speak for Melvyn, but I'm happy. I just want Bandon's policy left alone. That's why I jumped into this topic, too many people wanting Bandon to change their policy.
If you aren't fully disabled, but experience pain while playing...there are answers for that as well. See your doctor.
Or your dispensary. Or if in a non-medical cannabis state, your dealer.
Cheers,
Dan King
If the words "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" don't include the right to experiment with your own consciousness, then the Declaration of Independence isn't worth the hemp it was written on.
--Terence McKenna
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Indeed, a lot of different stuff being flung around in this thread.
Perhaps the one I disagree with the most is the whole "if you don't like it, then move along buddy". Perhaps if we were talking about joe blow course down the street, where there are thousands of other courses just like it that would be one thing. But we're not talking about that, we're talking about Bandon.....arguably the greatest golf destination on the planet for those who don't have access to privates. For most it'll be the best chance to play truly epic courses and to just say "go elsewhere" is complete BS.
Sure some may argue that its greatness is tied to "walking only" but I'm calling BS on that too. I rode at MPCC shore, cause it was my 2nd round of the day..and it took nothing away, that course is nothing short of fantastic. I rode at Rock Creek, once again, absolutely amazing course and experience. Ditto for Gozzer Ranch, Black Mesa, etc, etc.
P.S. I've never once had to "fight cartballers" as has been suggested on another post. I only fight stupid people on the course and more often than not its been walkers not people in carts.
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Terry,
I think the simple answer to your original question is: Not until they're bleeding a bunch of red ink. Yes there will be a demographic shift. Yes places like Streamsong may take some golfers from them. But walking is integral to the product Bandon is selling. They were first and arguably best at what they offer, as perhaps Sand Hills was. All of their courses are considered among the best in the world. It is a premium unique niche product they are selling. To mess with the formula that is working so well would be very foolish and possibly disastrous IMHO. My guess is that of the younger generation, while there may be fewer golfers, many will want to make the pilgrimage to Mecca. If it ain't broke, don't fix it till it is....
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Kalen Braley writes:
Sure some may argue that its greatness is tied to "walking only" but I'm calling BS on that too.
Au contrair, mon ami. I hate the look of golf carts and golf paths. Almost every golf course in the U.S. has been totally taken over by golf carts, golf paths and cartballers.
As a cartballer you have far more choices in the U.S. than I as a dedicated walker have. There are numerous golf courses that either forbid walking, or where designed with cartball in mind. Why is it so hard for cartballers to leave one freakin' resort alone?
Call it BS, but if Bandon allows for cartball, I will not bother making the trip.
I rode at MPCC shore, cause it was my 2nd round of the day..and it took nothing away, that course is nothing short of fantastic. I rode at Rock Creek, once again, absolutely amazing course and experience. Ditto for Gozzer Ranch, Black Mesa, etc, etc.
You do understand your experience might not translate to every other golfer in the world, right?
I only fight stupid people on the course and more often than not its been walkers not people in carts.
And we have had opposite experiences. Why not have you continue to have courses where you and your ilk can congregate, and leave Bandon for me and my ilk?
Right here can't you see the difference? We have given up on keeping golf a walking game in the U.S. and just want this one little oasis left alone. Cartballers apparently will not be happy until they have 100 percent compliance with what they want.
Cheers,
Dan King
Walking also enables us to watch a hole unfold in front of us. To walk a course is analogous to driving a long distance rather than flying. While driving, we see the country instead of racing over it. There's a human scale that flying cannot offer.
--Lorne Rubenstein
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Call it BS, but if Bandon allows for cartball, I will not bother making the trip.
Dan,
I agree with this and nobody with a straight face would call me a dedicated walker...
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Kalen Braley writes:
Sure some may argue that its greatness is tied to "walking only" but I'm calling BS on that too.
Au contrair, mon ami. I hate the look of golf carts and golf paths. Almost every golf course in the U.S. has been totally taken over by golf carts, golf paths and cartballers.
etc...
Dan,
Don't bother. It's Kalen.
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Dan can sometimes state a rather extreme version of certain ideas but in this case there's nothing extreme about it. Telling me to just pretend that being built and maintained for an optimal walking experience without regard to carts is not a part of what makes Bandon desirable is silly.
I'm telling you right now that is a major, huge, big deal to me. Not asking you to share my preference, just pointing out that for me and maybe a few thousand like-minded golfers that no other aspect of Bandon is more important than being as good a walking-golf experience as it is humanly possible to create. That quality was brought about largely by removing consideration of golf carts from the design equation entirely as a conscious choice.
If I said "Well hell, I don't ride in a cart so you don't need one either" I'd correctly be shouted down as imposing my own preferences rather than respecting the rights of others to have their own. It is precisely the same thing to say to me, "What's the B.F.D.? I don't care if there are carts on the course, you shouldn't care either". I do care and you can take your own preferences and exercise them elsewhere.
Take a minute to think about what we're discussing. We're discussing whether it's OK to have a GOLF COURSE that must be played by WALKING. Golf course. Walking. Walking golfers playing golf on a golf course. While walking. In a country where there are thousands of golf courses with an absolutely full-time prohibition against WALKING WHILE PLAYING GOLF we are somehow having a debate as to whether it's proper have four golf courses with a full-time prohibition on riding in a cart while playing golf.
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I already spoke to the principal issues raised in this thread. However, as usual we are getting off track and most of us have abandoned any connection this thread may have to architecture. Note that Terry's thread posited as the reason for allowing carts the desire to enable visitors to play 36 hole days for several days. Given the difficulty of travelling to Bandon, the variety of courses, and the expense, the desire to play multiple rounds is understandable. To date it appears that most who want 36 find a way to walk, hence the crowded tee sheet. Buy Terry suggests that as my generation of boomers gets older, it will become increasingly difficult.
Architecturally, there has not been a single argument that suggests that allowing carts will be beneficial. To the contrary, no one can suggest that the introduction of cart paths is anything but negative, particularly given the natural setting. The courses were not designed to hide paths. Notwithstanding some examples to the contrary, carts make maintenance more difficult and expensive, particularly where fescue is involved.
So the balance is whether the desire to make it easier for golfers to complete mutiple rounds in a day is sufficient justification to tamper with the architectural integrity of 4 magnificent courses. Each to his own but if the architecture is your priority, the answer appears to be a simple no.
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Architecturally, there has not been a single argument that suggests that allowing carts will be beneficial. To the contrary, no one can suggest that the introduction of cart paths is anything but negative, particularly given the natural setting. The courses were not designed to hide paths. Notwithstanding some examples to the contrary, carts make maintenance more difficult and expensive, particularly where fescue is involved.
I agree that there is no architectural benefit to allowing carts, but that doesn't necessarily mean that there will be a significant architectural or maintenance cost to allowing limited cart use. [I understand there are other reasons, well articulated by Dan and others, not to allow carts at all, but I'm focusing only on maintenance/architecture here.] Is it definitely the case that (hypothetically) allowing carts after 2pm on just one course per day would (a) require the addition of cart paths and/or (b) cause significant maintenance issues? Or are these things that could be worked around?
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Dan,
You know I feel compelled to point out the irony of you claiming a course to be "yours" that you've never even been to. ;D (That is unless I got my facts wrong on this one).
As for cart paths and likewise, you need to see a place like Rock Creek because the cart paths intrude zero on that course. So it can be done. I would agree that when I look at other examples of courses with ill-placed cart paths it could be vomit inducing, like that course Richard Choi just did a review on.
As for various types of ilk, I don't think its an either/or kind of scenario. I'm not drawing any absolute lines in the sand just for the sake of drawing a line, and ruling out compromise. But I am surprised to see you pulling a "Republican" move by doing so.
I guess Terry, Bob, Cliff, and I will continue to remain the voices of reason on this topic. ;)
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...
I guess Terry, Bob, Cliff, and I will continue to remain the voices of reason on this topic. ;)
Best laugh I've had in awhile.
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every generation in the US can ruin something for the next generation except Bandon Dunes
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Kalen Braley writes:
You know I feel compelled to point out the irony of you claiming a course to be "yours" that you've never even been to. Grin (That is unless I got my facts wrong on this one).
I don't believe I ever called Bandon "mine" but perhaps I did. Can you quote were I called it "mine"?
And yes, you have your facts wrong. I've been to Bandon perhaps a dozen times over the years, with the first time prior to the opening of Bandon Dunes. I haven't been there since Old Macdonald opened, partially because I've been golfing much less, partially because I'm in terrible shape and would not be able to walk as much as I would like. Hopefully it will encourage me to get in better shape to play the courses sometime soon.
Others might prefer to not get in shape and just insist Bandon become a cartball course for their convenience.
As for cart paths and likewise, you need to see a place like Rock Creek because the cart paths intrude zero on that course. So it can be done.
I'm betting they are much less successful hiding the carts and the cartballers.
As for various types of ilk, I don't think its an either/or kind of scenario. I'm not drawing any absolute lines in the sand just for the sake of drawing a line, and ruling out compromise. But I am surprised to see you pulling a "Republican" move by doing so.
You don't see it as either or because you want the entire world to compromise in your direction. You want every golf course in the world to be a cartball course so you can play whenever you want. I think my compromise works much better. I've given up on ridding the world of carts. The market has spoken, and golfers would rather ride than walk. I accept that.
You want the world to go cartball. I want a little corner of Oregon to stay the same. Sure looks like you are the one unwilling to compromise. You want your way or the highway. I have no idea which one of us has a "Republican" position.
I guess Terry, Bob, Cliff, and I will continue to remain the voices of reason on this topic.
I know Cliff shows all sorts of reason saying carts should be available at all times for him and people like him, but not for people unlike him. You must be so proud to stand beside him.
Cheers,
Dan King
Hitting things with a stick is the cornerstone of civilization. Consider all the things that can be improved by hitting them with a stick: veal, the TV, Woody Allen. Having a dozen good sticks at hand, all of them well balanced and expertly made, is one of the reasons I took up golf.
--P.J. O'Rourke
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Carl Nichols writes:
[I understand there are other reasons, well articulated by Dan and others, not to allow carts at all, but I'm focusing only on maintenance/architecture here.]
I'm reasonably confident I never once argued for no carts at Bandon. I want the way it is today to be the way it is in the future. I know they have carts at Bandon, they just restrict how you can get them and once you get them what you can do with them. That works for me.
Cheers,
Dan King
It will always be a battle a day between those who want maximum change and those who want to maintain the status quo.
--Gerry Adams
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Carl Nichols writes:
[I understand there are other reasons, well articulated by Dan and others, not to allow carts at all, but I'm focusing only on maintenance/architecture here.]
I'm reasonably confident I never once argued for no carts at Bandon. I want the way it is today to be the way it is in the future. I know they have carts at Bandon, they just restrict how you can get them and once you get them what you can do with them. That works for me.
Cheers,
Dan King
It will always be a battle a day between those who want maximum change and those who want to maintain the status quo.
--Gerry Adams
Fair point -- my phrsasing was shorthand for not allowing carts more than is currently allowed.
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If you call yourself a Golfer then you have no business riding or using outside aids.
Long may Bandon ban the cart for able bodied players, these Judas's of the golfing world. :P
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I know Cliff has stopped posting; perhaps he is still reading. If you do take a cart at Bandon via the medical exemption the CADDY will drive the cart. I certainly don't think he does it for free. I don't know if there is a cart fee in adition to the cady fee. Again, you will not be allowed behind the wheel.
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If you call yourself a Golfer then you have no business riding or using outside aids.
I'm suddenly reminded that we haven't had a good "Bite Me" thread in some time.
Bogey
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Architecturally, there has not been a single argument that suggests that allowing carts will be beneficial. To the contrary, no one can suggest that the introduction of cart paths is anything but negative, particularly given the natural setting. The courses were not designed to hide paths. Notwithstanding some examples to the contrary, carts make maintenance more difficult and expensive, particularly where fescue is involved.
I agree that there is no architectural benefit to allowing carts, but that doesn't necessarily mean that there will be a significant architectural or maintenance cost to allowing limited cart use. [I understand there are other reasons, well articulated by Dan and others, not to allow carts at all, but I'm focusing only on maintenance/architecture here.] Is it definitely the case that (hypothetically) allowing carts after 2pm on just one course per day would (a) require the addition of cart paths and/or (b) cause significant maintenance issues? Or are these things that could be worked around?
From an architectural standpoint, aesthetics make a big difference in the experience to me. I also like to take photos of destination courses and review the course through them. Even without paths, the tracks left by even a single cart really stand out on the course and in those photos later.
I haven't been to Bandon, but a huge part of the draw is the natural setting. Would I lose all my desire to visit if they allowed carts under the terms you desire? Probably not. But, I still have no idea why they would want to, and I do think even limited cart play would negatively affect the courses aesthetically. I can't speak to agronomics, but hopefully someone else can.
Bandon costs a lot of money, so people save to visit it. It's hard to reach, so they get on a plane and secure a rental car. It's also physically demanding, so what's the big deal about going to the gym to get ready? In my opinion, there aren't nearly enough incentives left for people to get in some semblance of physical condition.
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Architecturally, there has not been a single argument that suggests that allowing carts will be beneficial. To the contrary, no one can suggest that the introduction of cart paths is anything but negative, particularly given the natural setting. The courses were not designed to hide paths. Notwithstanding some examples to the contrary, carts make maintenance more difficult and expensive, particularly where fescue is involved.
I agree that there is no architectural benefit to allowing carts, but that doesn't necessarily mean that there will be a significant architectural or maintenance cost to allowing limited cart use. [I understand there are other reasons, well articulated by Dan and others, not to allow carts at all, but I'm focusing only on maintenance/architecture here.] Is it definitely the case that (hypothetically) allowing carts after 2pm on just one course per day would (a) require the addition of cart paths and/or (b) cause significant maintenance issues? Or are these things that could be worked around?
From an architectural standpoint, aesthetics make a big difference in the experience to me. I also like to take photos of destination courses and review the course through them. Even without paths, the tracks left by even a single cart really stand out on the course and in those photos later.
I haven't been to Bandon, but a huge part of the draw is the natural setting. Would I lose all my desire to visit if they allowed carts under the terms you desire? Probably not. But, I still have no idea why they would want to, and I do think even limited cart play would negatively affect the courses aesthetically. I can't speak to agronomics, but hopefully someone else can.
Bandon costs a lot of money, so people save to visit it. It's hard to reach, so they get on a plane and secure a rental car. It's also physically demanding, so what's the big deal about going to the gym to get ready? In my opinion, there aren't nearly enough incentives left for people to get in some semblance of physical condition.
I get that carts leave cart tracks, and that might be enough of a negative for some people on the aesthetics front. But others on here seem to think that more significant changes, like cart paths and worse turf, might result from having carts--and I agree that the former would be a big deal. But I haven't seen anyone answer the question -- would Bandon need to install cart paths if it allowed more (but still somewhat limited) cart use?
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It is well documented that I felt letting people bring their own personal push carts was a bad idea. I believe that one of the dedicated walkers on this site also ignored the rules of the resort by pushing his personal cart across the green. A rental is $5 for God's sake and made for green transgression. That was the camel's nose so don't blame me when carts soon follow.
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It is well documented that I felt letting people bring their own personal push carts was a bad idea. I believe that one of the dedicated walkers on this site also ignored the rules of the resort by pushing his personal cart across the green. A rental is $5 for God's sake and made for green transgression. That was the camel's nose so don't blame me when carts soon follow.
Since there is, and was at the time no such a rule, then it isn't, and wasn't ignored. ;)
Some of the employees at the resort are simply misinformed. When you get them to check with the authorities, they learn their mistake.
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F carts! :o nuf said
Now that's an intelligent response. Must be an OU guy. 8)
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If you call yourself a Golfer then you have no business riding or using outside aids.
Long may Bandon ban the cart for able bodied players, these Judas's of the golfing world. :P
Proof positive, you know you're wrong when Mel comes out on your side! ;D
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Melvin, I am a golfer and have been since age 10 and will be till they put me 6 feet under.
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Remember guys that Mike Kaiser is not just a good businessman but a good person and a golfer. Terry confirmed it but I could have sworn I had this conversation on carts for medically challenged with Mike over breakfast a few years ago. He also overruled Kemper to keep much of the afternoon open for 2nd plays rather than presell them at full retail. He is much less rigid and a true golfer in every sense of the word. Bandon is not just him and his vision for golf, but is a wonderful taste of Oregon culture as well.
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I gotta ask Melvyn on this one, God forbid you were to get sick and couldn't walk the course but riding would give you a chance to still play. Are you saying you wouldn't? My Dad enjoyed walking the course with me but as cancer was destroying his body some of the most joy he had the last year or so of his life was riding in a cart with me. If that means we aren't golfers then this game really is lost.
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I gotta ask Melvyn on this one, God forbid you were to get sick and couldn't walk the course but riding would give you a chance to still play. Are you saying you wouldn't? My Dad enjoyed walking the course with me but as cancer was destroying his body some of the most joy he had the last year or so of his life was riding in a cart with me. If that means we aren't golfers then this game really is lost.
Agreed Sam. My father also suffered from cancer that ultimately, after only 11 months, did him in. He was an excellent player who would have loved Bandon but would have had to ride at any time during that span. I think Melvyn is just being difficult refusing to put himself in another's shoes. That said, Keiser does it exactly right allowing folks who literally can't walk a round to have a cart. Having caddied there, I would say that if at all possible - like Mac Plumart - one will get the best experience walking with a caddie.
Cheers
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Tim Leahy writes:
Proof positive, you know you're wrong when Mel comes out on your side!
I hadn't thought of impeccable logic like that. I've changed my mind. They should pave over the whole resort and have golf cart races.
Sam Morrow writes:
I gotta ask Melvyn on this one, God forbid you were to get sick and couldn't walk the course but riding would give you a chance to still play.
I'm not speaking for Melvyn. He is capable of speaking up for himself. However, some of us believe the game is bigger than the individual. If I can no longer walk a golf course, I will be sad. I might occasionally play cartball -- hard to tell what the future holds -- but I'm fairly sure I would never try to get a course to become cartball just so I can play there.
I'm sure I would never love cartball like I love golf.
I also see a significant difference between a course having carts for those that truly need them and going cartball.
Cheers,
Dan King
He who has the fastest golf cart never has a bad lie.
--Mickey Mantle
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If you call yourself a Golfer then you have no business riding or using outside aids.
Long may Bandon ban the cart for able bodied players, these Judas's of the golfing world. :P
Melvyn,
I assume you have no graphite (or steel) shafts in your bag, use leather grips, have real "woods", and play a wound ball, nay, a featherie that you craft in your shop?
Cheers
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Melvyn doesn't play golf, which makes it fairly easy for him to live up to the extremist position he holds in regards to most aspects of the game.
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I gotta ask Melvyn on this one, God forbid you were to get sick and couldn't walk the course but riding would give you a chance to still play. Are you saying you wouldn't? My Dad enjoyed walking the course with me but as cancer was destroying his body some of the most joy he had the last year or so of his life was riding in a cart with me. If that means we aren't golfers then this game really is lost.
Sam,
I am not sure of this but Melvyn does have health problems and is unable to walk to play golf. I feel very sorry for him and wish that he could overcome his prejudice. Dan King and Melvyn have their points of view and should be lauded for their stand. However, I cannot for the life of me think of refusing to play golf because the use of a cart was a required condition of play.
I guess I must be classified as not a golfing enthusiast..
Bob
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I gotta ask Melvyn on this one, God forbid you were to get sick and couldn't walk the course but riding would give you a chance to still play. Are you saying you wouldn't? My Dad enjoyed walking the course with me but as cancer was destroying his body some of the most joy he had the last year or so of his life was riding in a cart with me. If that means we aren't golfers then this game really is lost.
Sam,
I am not sure of this but Melvyn does have health problems and is unable to walk to play golf. I feel very sorry for him and wish that he could overcome his predudice. Dan King and Melvyn have their points of view and should be lauded for their stand. However, I cannot for the life of me think of refusing to play golf because the use of a cart was a required condition of play.
I guess I must be classified as not a golfing enthusiast..
Bob
You and I must be in the same boat. If Melvyn has a health problem that keeps him from walking the course I would tell him to hop in a cart and enjoy a round. That's just me.
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Melvyn has stated many times on this board that he has health issues and does not play anymore, as he refuses to take the cart that might enable him to play.
I give him credit for adhering to his principles, even if he expresses them a bit incessantly.
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Bob_Huntley writes:
Dan King and Melvyn have their points of view and should be lauded for their stand. However, I cannot for the life of me think of refusing to play golf because the use of a cart was a required condition of play.
I'm not all that stringent. I've been known to play cartball now and then. Anytime I can play a round of golf with Mr. Huntley I would gladly jump in the cart. My point from the beginning is I like the way Bandon handles carts, and I see no reason at all they should change their policy.
Sam Morrow writes:
You and I must be in the same boat. If Melvyn has a health problem that keeps him from walking the course I would tell him to hop in a cart and enjoy a round. That's just me.
I hope you will understand when he says he would rather not?
Cheers,
Dan King
From its earliest beginnings, golf has been a gentleman's game - to be played as much for the sake of the game as for the contest.
--Tony Lema
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I can't really say with certainty how I'd feel in a What-If scenario but I know right now golf that doesn't involve walking the course does not "do it for me" from a playing perspective. I play on the order of 100 rounds per year, almost like an addiction to playing, and would play more if time allowed. No way I would find it that engaging and addicting an activity if it were the kind of golf played from a cart, there just isn't the same flow and sense of freedom to it.
My guess is if I could only play by riding I'd be one of the people, probably a million of them out there, who play half a dozen rounds a year when some social opportunity presents itself. There's a lot worse places to be than on a golf course with one or several friends and I can see the attraction. I even play a round or two like that myself from time to time. But in all honesty I can't imagine leaving work and trying to squeeze nine holes in before dark (out of sheer haven't-played-golf-this-week withdrawal) if it were riding-golf. My true fascination is with the pace and rhythm of walking briskly on short-clipped turf with a swing of the club every couple minutes along the way.
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Brent,
We are a lot alike; I hate getting in a golf cart. I'm one of the few players at my club that always walk, even on the hottest Georgia summer day, and even to the detriment of my game when I walk for a third or fourth day in a row. I average 125 rounds a year and generally the only ones I ride are when it is mandatory (Myrtle Beach or Scottsdale, for instance) or for some social reason. I walk because I like being fit, because I like the game better that way, and because I hate paying for a cart.
But I'm 60 now, and when the day comes (as it SURELY will!) that riding a cart is the only way that I can play a lot of golf, I will ride happily, be that temporary or permanent. I love playing golf with my buddies. I love a golf trip. I love throwing in $20 for the points game at the club, and sharing a pitcher afterwards. I love the feel of a well-struck shot. I love taking new golf balls out of the sleeve and marking them. I even love the sound that my clubs make as they come in and out of the bag. And on and on. To give up all that golf gives me because of a what is (at least in my mind) a meaningless distinction between walking and not walking is just not thinkable. Life will assuredly be a bit poorer for being unable to walk the course, but not nearly as much poorer as it would be without the beauty of the game of golf itself.
It does my soul good when Tiger Bernhardt or Bob Huntley or Patrick Mucci write with passion about the meaning of continuing to be able to play the game, however that is made possible. I've never met any of those gentlemen, but I know to a certainty that they are great stewards of our game; their passion for golf is the same passion that I feel, whether I am walking or riding. I just love to play the game.
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Bob_Huntley writes:
Dan King and Melvyn have their points of view and should be lauded for their stand. However, I cannot for the life of me think of refusing to play golf because the use of a cart was a required condition of play.
I'm not all that stringent. I've been known to play cartball now and then. Anytime I can play a round of golf with Mr. Huntley I would gladly jump in the cart. My point from the beginning is I like the way Bandon handles carts, and I see no reason at all they should change their policy.
Sam Morrow writes:
You and I must be in the same boat. If Melvyn has a health problem that keeps him from walking the course I would tell him to hop in a cart and enjoy a round. That's just me.
I hope you will understand when he says he would rather not?
Cheers,
Dan King
From its earliest beginnings, golf has been a gentleman's game - to be played as much for the sake of the game as for the contest.
--Tony Lema
Of course I would understand if he would rather not but then he and others must respect those who would ride in that case. It's a two way street.
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Sam
Its Golf we are talking about and play what’s this with the two way street?
Perhaps it’s my blood line with all those great and famous golfers and golf course designers that through their actions we have a game and golf courses worthy of great merit. Perhaps through their game golf went global through their interactions. Whatever, it has been passed down to me that golf is a game played alone, or with friends or strangers, for simple joy, entertainment or money. The purpose is to accept the tests and challenges placed before the golfer by God, Nature and the Hand of Man. The game from the start was one of walking and thinking while navigating the course with all its traps and natural/manmade obstacles, to do so on your own ability. The rich being able to have a club carrier, the poorer carried their own limited set of clubs.
Throughout all my searches and research I have never come across the game not being a walking game or others doing the thinking for the golfer. I suppose the guys back then realised that if they were to embrace the game they had to do it their way i.e. walk and think their game through, selecting the correct clubs to gain the best distance before the little ball went into the Hole.
Golf is a game of tradition, it has its own rules of conduct, it was and is a way of life. To be known as a golfer you knew that it would have an effect upon not just you but your wife and family, not to mention your social activities. Being a golfer you commit to that knowing that it is the consequence
of your own actions. The game engulfs you and all the ones you love.
If you have lived your life as a golfer, accepted it is your game why would you want to play another variation of the game that in the past has left you feeling it’s a betrayal of everything you believe in - that is in your golfing life. For me and many others, Golf is not a cart assisted game. That’s for the lazy, the non-committed, the part timers who care not a fig for the game, its traditions or that the game is a test of the individuals character, in that his/her willingness to face the tests and challenges that defines golf as a game.
So once you can’t walk far, you expect me to abandon all that I hold dear and true for something I have nothing but contempt for as it IMHO riding is not playing golf as its shows zero commitment let alone interest in a game called Golf.
I will no ride to play golf, it simply is not golf if you ride, you have removed a major part of the intercourse with the land a golfer gets when walking. So no, no cart for me, I will stop playing until my problem is cured. I may use a cart in future to get about but not to play golf.
Nor will I ride with you as you do not play the same game as me and quite frankly I am not interested in Cart Balling.
Melvyn
PS I have played golf in many parts of the world, mainly the Tropics from Brazil, Jamaica, Nigeria India and places like Portugal & Spain. Walking never even considered riding, it’s just not the done thing if you are a Golfer – then again it’s in my bloodline and do you expect me to betray the likes of Old or Young Tom, Charlie Hunter, James Hunter, George & Jack Morris and more besides who went to America up course in Mobile Darien.
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I know, I know, I know...Melvyn repeats himself, appears overly dogmatic, etc, etc, etc...but
DAMN his last post is motivating to me. Kudos and respect Melvyn.
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Of course the reason why you don't see anything about carts when researching the game's beginning is because, well, they didn't have them.
Melvyn's post is akin to saying you can't watch TV because it isn't found in the bible.
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JC Jones writes:
Of course the reason why you don't see anything about carts when researching the game's beginning is because, well, they didn't have them.
That's right, the only way to ever get around before the genius of America created golf carts was by foot.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4a/Planquin_benaras.jpg)
(http://www.dpvintageposters.com/cgi-local/db_images/posters/cache/3969-image-450-550-fit.jpg)
Cheers,
Dan King
What earthly good is golf? Life is stern and life is earnest. We live in a practical age. All around us we see foreign competition making itself unpleasant. And we spend our time playing golf? What do we get out of it? Is golf any use? That's what I'm asking you. Can you name me a single case where devotion to this pestilential pastime has done a man any practical good?
--P.G. Wodehouse
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Many things have changed, heck 100 years ago people got polio often, heck that President with the ugly wife had polio. Now you get a shot when you're a kid. Heck 100 years ago women often died in childbirth, now it almost never happens (atleast in the developed world).
I think Tiger and Huntley are still golfers. If he's not a golfer anymore I'm going to ask Tiger if I can borrow his clubs.
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Melvyn's post is akin to saying you can't watch TV because it isn't found in the bible.
;D ;D ;D
EDIT...
That picture of Gene Sarazen on a mule is hilarious!!!
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In post numbered 215, Melvyn makes the following observation."
"So once you can’t walk far, you expect me to abandon all that I hold dear and true for something I have nothing but contempt for as it IMHO riding is not playing golf as its shows zero commitment let alone interest in a game called Golf."
Melvyn,
Contempt for the action and the perpetrator? Come now, we are talking about a game. It is all very well for you to claim that your ancestry demands this mortification, if so, you might try wearing a cilice, it would concentrate the mind wonderfully. As an aside I walked until I was eighty and then resorted to cart use because I loved the game. What I played thereafter might not be seen as such by you, but I played by the rules and never in any sort of competition. Not only that but my love for the game certainly helped me get out of a hospital bed.
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Mac,
Motivating in what way? I only ask because I get goosebumps as an American when I read President Thomas Jefferson say something like, "I have no fear that the result of our experiment will be that men may be trusted to govern themselves without a master."
But then I wonder if he asked one of his servants/slaves for another cup of tea while he penned something so wonderful. Being such a homer for what our ancestors and forefathers espoused has a limit, you know?
Yes, motivating as Melvyn's speech can be at times, it is exclusionary and fanatical. If Melvyn truly loved the game, he would understand that such an outlook is no better for the future of golf than very carts/cartball courses he decries.
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Ben Sims writes:
Yes, motivating as Melvyn's speech can be at times, it is exclusionary and fanatical. If Melvyn truly loved the game, he would understand that such an outlook is no better for the future of golf than very carts/cartball courses he decries.
I'm not much of a fan of the future of golf. Many of the changes I have seen have been for the detriment of golf. I'm not saying all changes, but most of the ones in my lifetime have hurt, not helped golf. If I were King of Golf I would say screw the future, I prefer the past. But I'm not King of Golf and I realize I am in a minority and have learned to adjust to my minority status.
I tend to agree with Melvyn more than I disagree. To me there is a certain amount of standard of what golf is. If it is just about the shots, then it can be done on a simulator, at the driving range, or in some sort of faux golf course. It is much more than just the shots. I think and important part of golf is that it is out in nature. Carts, cart paths and cartballers take away from that feeling of nature.
I'm all for innovation. I think carts were an excellent advancement in golf, allowing people who could not play otherwise to play a close facsimile of the game. The problem is they have taken over golf, and now people think it is just plain silly to think of golf as a walking game. Innovation didn't help the game, it hurt it. Same with these goofy devices to measure distance. Golf was suppose to be a nice mix between the mental and the physical. But the folks that prefer golf as mostly a physical game have taken over and are busy downplaying the mental aspect of golf.
There isn't much I can do about any of this. The people who want to turn golf into primarily a physical game have won. Carts and distance aids are not going away. But that doesn't mean I need to like it. That doesn't mean when golfers on here want to change one of the few places in America where carts are relegated to the disabled I should just shut up and accept it.
If you like cartball you have almost every golf course in America to choose from. If I want to get away from cartball, I used to have to go overseas. Now I have a little corner of Oregon where I can still play golf and not deal with cartball. Despite walkers being in the minority, we have this one little niche market where we can get away from the domination of cartball and still enjoy nature. But as this thread shows, there are plenty of people want to see that end.
Cheers,
Dan King
I see the distorted swings, the hurried rounds, and now the electric carts tae ruin the courses and rob us of our exercise. I don't think evolution is goin' ahead so much as just goin' along breedin' more unfitness every day.
--Julian Lang
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Ben
Fanatical is going to war because of non-existing WMD, yet tell your people they could be ready to deploy in 15 minutes. Fanatical is going to war with no policy as what to do if you win. What about trying to win the hearts and minds of the people, by repairing the utilities destroyed by you aircraft to show them you care and that you are committed – ops there that’s word that you can’t quite get your head around, it’s as scarce as the illusive WMD’s.
Bob
Perhaps I have something called commitment, to the game, its traditions and believe that playing golf is only possible if one walks. Commitment to get off my backside and play the traditional game. Commitment to take a lot of crap from those who it seems have very little commitment.
It’s just a game so why not play it the way it has been played for centuries, why change a game that is all about testing the golfer. Why fall at the first hurdle, is walking just that bridge too far for the modern player too busy being lazy, using carts and outside aids all because he/she has no commitment to themselves or the game.
Play golf then do so, don’t fart about on a cart using toys to work out your game for you. Be Men rise to the challenge and walk while thinking your game or is that just too difficult for many of the modern players – trying to do two things at the same time.
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hate the sin, love the sinner ;)
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I probably have a unique perspective on this for a couple reasons
1) As some of your know, I am recovering from some serious shoulder issues, so I will be riding every round I play at least until October this year
2) I am in sales for a major CPG company and play a TON of corporate golf
Here are some of my thoughts
- I really dont believe that adding carts will materially change the vibe at bandon if nothing else changes. Bandon will never get a ton of corporate play for a few reasons-- 1) it is very hard to get to 2) the other amenties (food/spa) are either average or non-existent
- I also dont believe the caddy program will die if some carts are allowed
- Looking at 10 pages of posting, I don't think there is a single person here who said they would either visit Bandon less or play fewer rounds
- As many people have mentioned, Bandon is not being run to maximize profits right now -- specially driven by leaving tee times open to allow for replays. Can anyone here ever remember not being able to get a replay round close to when you wanted it.
My take -- until profitably begins to change materially, i see no sign of anything changing
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Dan,
I like your response. And I am very much in the camp that believes that Bandon should remain as is with regards to cart use. I agree that a medical note should be the only way you're riding there. And then it must be with a forecaddie.
However, my last post was speaking generally about the ongoing and constant barrage of Melvyn's message. He hasn't adjusted the coordinates of his mortar in some time, and I assume he think he can keep lobbing shells into the crater until he hits the other side of the world.
It is this ceaselessness and unwillingness to see a gray area that makes the message so difficult to swallow. I prefer a walking game and I do not enjoy the lazy style of design that carts have allowed to flourish from some architects. However, I do not see the existence of carts as anathema to golf. And going further, I--like our own esteemed Bob Huntley above--vehemently loathe the implication that I am not a golfer if I do use a cart from time to time. This is what moderate individuals call fanaticism. And in my opinion, many things wrong with the world can be traced to fanatical viewpoints.
In short, it is not so much that I disagree with Melvyn or yourself. It is the unwillingness to acknowledge a differing viewpoint, a gray area that is the actual reality of what golf is to millions of people worldwide, that is so frustrating.
Melvyn,
I wouldn't expect you to actually engage me on anything resembling a lucid argument. I understand--and it is truly lamentable--that age and injury have led to your not playing golf. But presently between the two of us friend, I am the only one actually playing golf AND involved in national defense. That you have so confidently commented on both without having a modern knowledge base in either is frankly, worthy of a laugh this beautiful Texas afternoon.
What's even funnier is that you should mention "What about trying to win the hearts and minds of the people, by repairing the utilities destroyed by you[r] aircraft to show them you care and that you are committed." Suffice to say, my last trip to southwest Asia had nothing to with destroying anything. Rather, it was our mission to help build something.
Politics aside--and I hope you'll keep them there--I have always stated that I admire your message and agree with it in part. I hope we can all agree that part of the allure of golf is just simply being outside in a nice setting. Walking or riding, golf allows you to do just that. It also allows you engage in the challenge of hitting a golf ball and interacting with the environment. Walking or riding, golf allows you to spend time with friends and opponents alike, and many times, they are one in the same. I agree that you do miss something when you don't walk, but all of those other things remain. And that is golf to me.
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Melvyn,
What is it that you don't know about handicapped golfers? Are you asking them to give up their passion?
Bob
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Mark Johnson writes:
I really dont believe that adding carts will materially change the vibe at bandon if nothing else changes. Bandon will never get a ton of corporate play for a few reasons-- 1) it is very hard to get to 2) the other amenties (food/spa) are either average or non-existent
I don't care much about rankings, but I'm guessing they either have three or four golf courses in most top-100 lists. Is there any other area with that high of a concentration of top rank golf available to the public? The only thing keeping the golf course trophy hunters away in mass is they know they need to be in good enough shape to handle the walk of the four golf courses. Give 'em cartball, and they will go in droves.
don't they still have Grandma Thayer's Meat Loaf and Redbreast Irish Pot Still Whiskey?
- I also dont believe the caddy program will die if some carts are allowed
So you just ignore the fact that carts have killed just about every other caddy program, and believe some how Bandon is different?
- Looking at 10 pages of posting, I don't think there is a single person here who said they would either visit Bandon less or play fewer rounds
I've said it twice on this thread.
- As many people have mentioned, Bandon is not being run to maximize profits right now -- specially driven by leaving tee times open to allow for replays. Can anyone here ever remember not being able to get a replay round close to when you wanted it.
Right now there is a natural impediment to playing multiple rounds a day, you have to walk them. Open it up to all the people who can't walk 36 holes a day and you are going to see those second and third round replays get filled up and harder to come by.
Cheers,
Dan King
Call it BS, but if Bandon allows for cartball, I will not bother making the trip.
--Dan King
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Ben Sims writes:
However, my last post was speaking generally about the ongoing and constant barrage of Melvyn's message. He hasn't adjusted the coordinates of his mortar in some time, and I assume he think he can keep lobbing shells into the crater until he hits the other side of the world.
I admire Melvyn's sticking to his guns. I gave up. I conceded defeat. I'm no longer fighting for what I believe, but just trying to hold onto one tiny bit of a world I love. Melvyn and I share many of the same beliefs, but I've been worn down by the years. I think American golf is forever lost, and there is nothing anyone can do about it. I don't believe British golf is in anywhere near as bad a shape as U.S. golf, so I can sort of understand Melvyn holding onto his passion.
However, I do not see the existence of carts as anathema to golf.
It isn't carts necessarily that are an anathema to golf, but they are the canary in the mind shaft. I don't like American golf. It is about shots and not the experience of golf. Golf is a game that developed with a very healthy mix of the mental and the physical, and American golf is trying to reduce the influence of the mental. Much of the change irritates me, but in most cases it doesn't change my love for the former game -- except when it results in poorly designed courses, the look of cart paths, carts and cartballers, and the unbearable slowness that is part of American golf.
Cheers,
Dan King
Would that I could hand on unimpaired the great game as it was my good fortune to know it!
--Charles Blair Macdonald
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I don't like American golf.
Nor do I.
But what really saddens me, is what happened this afternoon.
I was crossing the parking lot on my way back into the clubhouse for a beverage after walking 18 at age 64, and I hear a guy who is 30 years younger than me ask his friend, also in his 30s, "Are you going to walk?" In the same tone of voice he might use to ask, "Are you nuts?"
To which his friend replied, "Hell no!"
As if they'd even think of walking....
K
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Like Godwin's Law, I hereby invoke Melvyn's Law--the first to invoke the Iraq War and WMD in a thread on the relative merits of carts, loses the argument. Hard to be any more OT.
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Ben/Bob
All I have ever said is that Golf is a walking thinking game. Play golf you walk – my reasons its written in to 6 Centuries of the game. If suffering from medical or age problems then use a cart.
However if you use a cart to play every time or nearly every time, then all I ask is that you have the ball and basic honesty to call the game what it is Cart ball or Cart Golf. That’s it, that all I seek. My reason for that is in the excess of energy use by walking vs. riding. There is a massive saving, allowing the rider an advantage. I would welcome and have called on this site for the Governing Body to undertake an energy test, something similar to that done in the 1920 to measure energy used when lifting and setting down a golf bag. Lets prove me right or wrong, if it saves energy it’s an aid and should be banned in golf, but not Cart Ball or Cart Golf.
But you see Riders want their cake and eat it too, they want to be known as golfers but can’t be bothered to commit to the game by walking. That wrong, that stinks and its sodding lazy.
So please ride just do the honourable thing and call you game a variation of the game of golf, but it is not Golf.
As for a scientific test, it will not happen, because if it did it would prove an aid and show the R&A as stupid for not having realised it in the first place. And if they are stupid should they be allowed to run things, make money and tinker with venues that host The Open?
Ben & Tom, don’t dismiss me until you know me or my life. You know nothing about my golf or my life, yet it seems a common thing these days that the military underestimate their opponents, be it wars in the far East or middle East – the record is not good, win most of the battles perhaps but in the end lose the war by seeking any form of extraction from the battle zones.
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Melvyn,
I think the USGA, R&A, and PGA all realize implicitly that riding saves energy. This is why competitive professional and amateur events require walking is it not?
And by the way, what did your last paragraph have to do with anything? How did that topic even enter this debate?
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Mark Johnson writes:
I really dont believe that adding carts will materially change the vibe at bandon if nothing else changes. Bandon will never get a ton of corporate play for a few reasons-- 1) it is very hard to get to 2) the other amenties (food/spa) are either average or non-existent
I don't care much about rankings, but I'm guessing they either have three or four golf courses in most top-100 lists. Is there any other area with that high of a concentration of top rank golf available to the public? The only think keeping the golf course trophy hunters away in mass is they know they need to be in good enough shape to handle the walk of the four golf courses. Give 'em cartball, and they will go in droves.
don't they still have Grandma Thayer's Meat Loaf and Redbreast Irish Pot Still Whiskey?
- I also dont believe the caddy program will die if some carts are allowed
So you just ignore the fact that carts have killed just about every other caddy program, and believe some how Bandon is different?
- Looking at 10 pages of posting, I don't think there is a single person here who said they would either visit Bandon less or play fewer rounds
I've said it twice on this thread.
- As many people have mentioned, Bandon is not being run to maximize profits right now -- specially driven by leaving tee times open to allow for replays. Can anyone here ever remember not being able to get a replay round close to when you wanted it.
Right now there is a natural impediment to playing multiple rounds a day, you have to walk them. Open it up to all the people who can't walk 36 holes a day and you are going to see those second and third round replays get filled up and harder to come by.
Cheers,
Dan King
Call it BS, but if Bandon allows for cartball, I will not bother making the trip.
--Dan King
well typed!
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With regard to the term "cart ball", why is it that carts have changed the game so fundamentally that some refuse to call the game "golf", yet balls made from modern materials, 460cc titanium drivers with grapite shafts, etc. have not? I started playing golf in probably 1982. Carts have always existed for someone my age. The technology currently sitting in my bag has not. My problem with the "purists" is a total lack of consistency. Since its inception, the game of golf has changed dramatically. Why are certain advancements that have made the game easier OK, but others aren't? And to that end, all of the technological advancements have done more to make the game easier (for me at least) than carts have.
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Bill Seitz writes:
With regard to the term "cart ball", why is it that carts have changed the game so fundamentally that some refuse to call the game "golf", yet balls made from modern materials, 460cc titanium drivers with grapite shafts, etc. have not?
Good question.
One point is that you using high-tech equipment doesn't change the game I play. I can still go out to a course and play low-tech equipment. I have a set of hickories and there is nothing stopping me from using them. Carts have changed the courses and the economics of the game, making it so often it is impossible to walk a golf course. I'm sure some will say modern equipment has also changed the game, making courses longer and narrower, but I can adjust with my hickories. No matter how hard I try, I can't adjust to the ugly cart paths, cart golf courses, carts and cartballers.
Some of the equipment changes have been to make the equipment cheaper and last longer. There isn't enough feathers, gutty or hickory for all of us to play balls or clubs made with those. Most of the changes in my life with the ball was to make them last longer. It has also resulted with them flying farther and straighter, but not by much when you hit them with 100 year old clubs.
I've said I'm not adverse to change. I'm responding to this on a computer over a world-wide network of computers. But change should be for a reason. I like solutions to have a problem they address. Carts were intended to make the game still accessible for those with disabilities, but now it has seriously damaged the courses and the price hasn't been worth it, IMHO.
Cheers,
Dan King
Sports gear purchases are about all that's keeping the fragile U.S. economy alive, and you'd have to get into America's Cup yachting or cross-country airplane racing to find a sport that needs more gear than golf.
--P.J. O'Rourke
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Many things about golf have changed in the last couple hundred years. Riding instead of walking is at least as big a change as any of the others you might care to mention. Not saying it's the only change. But it's a very, very large change.
And if I live to play golf as long as Gene Sarazen did, then within my lifetime I'm convinced walking to play golf with be extinct or else so "oddball" that special arrangements will be needed in order to do it.
I'm sure I can live and play golf quite happily without hitting a persimmon driver. I'm almost equally sure I can not play golf happily without walking the course.
Look at it this way, anyone who likes is free to tee it up tomorrow with clubs from 1903. Yet almost nobody will be doing so. Yet so many people choose not to use the putative "improvement" represented by golf carts that courses all over the country forbid golfers from walking the course purely to force the use of the carts they do not want. Ask yourself which is a genuine improvement and which is not, modern equipment or riding in a golf cart.
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Carts have changed the courses and the economics of the game, making it so often it is impossible to walk a golf course.
Dan,
Would you just prefer that there wasn't a course then?
This is the most prevalent problem I have with the cart purists. They decry courses that don't allow walking, they bemoan pace of play, they talk about consolations in design that have watered down golf architecture. However, what they never consider is the absolute selfishness that their viewpoints espouse. Golf would look totally different--and I think much smaller--than it does today in the US if the cart were outlawed. Tens of thousands of people would not have a job in golf and possibly millions of people would not be consistently exposed to golf without carts. It's a social activity. People in this nation prefer their entertainment to be easy going--particularly if it is 85+ degrees outside. We are the minority here. I have shown some of these cart threads to once a week golfers--but not "cognoscenti"--and they laugh their asses off at us.
Let me be very clear however. My most favorite courses are easily walkable with tees close to greens; courses with rhythm and flow. Carts are certainly a detractor to these things I value greatly in golf design.
I will never understand why the cart purists use the "required carts" argument in this debate. Go play somewhere else. For every one course that requires carts, probably 30 allow walking.
Lastly Dan, just a question. Have you ever played a course that had carts in which the designer paid extra attention to hiding cart paths and making the walkers have the best routing from green to tee, etc.?
PS--Dan, you should have Melvyn pay you to speak for him. You are way better at this and much more fun to talk to than he is. ;D Sorry Mel.
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You obviously play golf in a different part of the country than Dan or myself if you think 29 out of 30 courses allow walking.
And just a friendly reminder before the thread goes yet again afield. This thread was not supposed to be about "banning carts". It was simply examining the idea that there is an affirmative value to the existence of one particular resort with four courses on which carts are not allowed outside exceptions on medical grounds.
Yes, there is value. Such a course is rare. Getting rarer every day. And the experience is qualitatively different than one on which the majority of golfers are riding on carts, there are carts every goddamn direction you look, the fairways and roughs are beaten down to nothing by the constant cart traffic and--almost inevitably--there are restrictions on when you are allowed to walk the course.
Compared to all that, which is absolutely the bog standard norm among USA golf courses I personally have visited, having one measly little resort as an oasis for walking golf is a good thing to an extent that is almost exaggeration-proof. To golfers who walk, that is.
Nobody's going to take your cart away where ever you are used to riding in it. We're just registering our strongest possible support for having this one, lone exception to the ugly and senseless norm that prevails nearly everywhere else in this country. It is one of the very best things about Bandon to more people than some of you guys seem capable of imagining.
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I like your response. And I am very much in the camp that believes that Bandon should remain as is with regards to cart use. I agree that a medical note should be the only way you're riding there. And then it must be with a forecaddie.
Brent,
Allow me to quote myself from post #227. :) Bandon is doing the right thing. You're not going to find a much stronger proponent for anything Bandon Dunes Golf Resort wishes to do than me. Bandon and Ballyneal are two of my favorite places on the planet.
But the issue to me is this. Just because Bandon is doing it right does not mean that everyone else is doing it wrong. The freedom of choice is imperative for many golf courses in this country. The puritanical and stiff viewpoint that carts are destroying golf is just too far off to one side to be realistic in my opinion. This should be a thread arguing why Bandon is special and should stay as is and not a 10 page cart-bashing fest that further serves to pigeonhole this website against mainstream golf.
PS--I could call any course in San Antonio tomorrow, public or private, and be allowed to walk.
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Making golf easy or easier seems to me to convey at a stroke a total defeatist attitude. I do not understand why anyone plays golf if they need the game to be made easy. The whole point of the game is the challenge and one’s attempt meet if face on.
As for the equipment, my opinion has not changed, I have always said that I am pro technology but it must be based upon consistency and not improvement in the ability to make the ball travel further than the club it is replacing. The game of golf finally achieved a good consistency by the turn of the 20th Century with the Gutty being the tool to allow clubs to be fully developed for the game. With the Haskell ball the game was finally complete as the Gutty had the problem of shattering. Use whatever material and technology you want but not at the advantage of always improving ones distance, because that is not worthy of a golfer, he should strive to let skill and experience achieve distance improvement, but never through the equipment.
Carts are there to take the stress & strain, yet it is that simple fact that is so part of the game. Stress and strain equates to the game, it measures the golfer, it allows them to play the game, to understand the course, terrain, contours while the body warms up and muscles relax by the steady walking pace, the lungs increase the oxygen levels in the body/brain freeing the golfer to face the actual physical and mental challenge that is golf. Take a cart and you are a Lounge Potato, add distance aids then where is that interactivity between body and mind.
I am not against technology, but I am against anything that dulls the game, that takes the thought process away from the golfer, that strips the golfer of the feeling of the land by walking and feeling and see the contours. How can a golfer function correctly without that input, he can’t hence the reliance upon the cart and distance aids.
Golf is and always will be a challenge, cart ball and using distance aids removed over 50% of the fun and enjoyment the game offers a golfer, produces a lazy golfer not only in legs but mind department, ultimately relying on technology to improve his score as skill levels deteriorate thanks to inactivity.
Some understandably have never know golf without distance aids or carts, well I have and the game is IMHO way more fun and satisfying playing golf through your own abilities (whatever levels that may be). The thrill and satisfaction of Walking 36 Holes in a day, of taking every stroke through the information gained while walking and looking and not reliant on outside help to get around or select the right club is the reason why the game was so successful and went worldwide.
Today we seem to want to dumb down the game, no walking courses, artificial aids, technology governing the distance the ball travels, less penal courses and still we look for it being easier. I fear too many are trying golf and finding it just too tough, so instead of finding something else they dumb down the game to make themselves look good by doing so have destroyed the very thing that made the game so great in the early days.
Worst of all our governing bodies have not shown the balls to protect the game which is I believe their core duty IMHO.
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Ben Sims writes:
Would you just prefer that there wasn't a course then?
Bandon? If it was cartball courses I probably wouldn't care either way.
This is the most prevalent problem I have with the cart purists. They decry courses that don't allow walking, they bemoan pace of play, they talk about consolations in design that have watered down golf architecture. However, what they never consider is the absolute selfishness that their viewpoints espouse.
Every sport could be opened up to make it more inclusive. How come the rules of basketball aren't changed to compensate for the handicapped? Shouldn't swimming and track put much less emphasis on speed so slow people could better compete?
With the Casey Martin thing: I remember I think it was Tim Herron who said something like, Part of what makes golf such a special sport is that we can allow someone like Martin to compete. That changed my mind about Martin. I think it is great that people with all sorts of disability can play golf. I like that minimal changes need to be made to allow their inclusion, but with carts -- not because of the disabled -- the game has changed because of them, and not for the better.
Yes I am selfish. I want the game I love not to be Americanized. Damn straight I am selfish. Think of all the things you love and how much you would rather not see them change. You ever considered how selfish that is?
Golf would look totally different--and I think much smaller--than it does today in the US if the cart were outlawed.
I'm not in the golf business. I have no real desire to see the game grow. Should I?
Tens of thousands of people would not have a job in golf and possibly millions of people would not be consistently exposed to golf without carts.
All these people who love cartgolf, would they sit at home twiddling their thumbs? Or would they do some other activity that would employ tens of thousands of people?
I don't see how millions of people exposed to cartball makes my life better.
I have shown some of these cart threads to once a week golfers--but not "cognoscenti"--and they laugh their asses off at us.
My feeling are hurt.
Lastly Dan, just a question. Have you ever played a course that had carts in which the designer paid extra attention to hiding cart paths and making the walkers have the best routing from green to tee, etc.?
Yes I have. And I do appreciate it. But they have been much less successful hiding the carts, cartballers and the slow play cartballers bring.
Cheers,
Dan King
P.S. I just realized I'm not hurt. People I don't know have been laughing their ass off about me for years. I'm immune.
You can golf first thing in the morning. I've noticed for men my age, more and more of the important things happen at that time of the day: golf, heart attacks, delivery of the Wall Street Journal, and intermittently -- erections and bowel movements.
--P.J. O'Rourke
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Dan,
Solid points, all of them. I don't agree with the viewpoint that just because you like something, then that activity is at its perigee and any departure from that paradigm is the end of your pastime as you know it. Conversely, I don't like the idea of ATV's on hiking trails in Nat'l Parks. God that is depressing just to think about. So in some ways I agree with you, others I don't.
In any case, the market has spoken on golf. Carts are popular and account for a bit more than half of the rounds in the US. Good or bad, that is where golf sits now. I for one think there is a tremendous flexibility in the game right now. Want a walking only, no slope rating, match play golf course with all fescue greens? That place exists. So does the place that is cart only with multimillion dollar cart paths. We have courses that are single row irrigation, some that have 1000+ heads. Desert golf, links golf, cart golf, parkland, heathland, it's all there!
Golf needs financial help right now, sure. But can you name a time in the history of the game where there was more variety? Find your niche and roll around like a pig in mud. Me? I have my own ideas of what I would do given the chance to design, build or manage a golf course. I follow the minimalist school of design and the Mahaffey school of maintenance. But I also love golf and enjoy being a chameleon that can be happy and blend in on any course.
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Ben Sims writes:
I don't agree with the viewpoint that just because you like something, then that activity is at its perigee and any departure from that paradigm is the end of your pastime as you know it.
I don't think I ever said golf should not change. I love that golf has become a much more international game. I love that golf has in general figured out how to be more exclusionary, with women, minorities and children more involved in golf than in the past. There is much to love about golf. I want to see positive changes rather than negative changes, and carts have mostly brought negative changes.
Conversely, I don't like the idea of ATV's on hiking trails in Nat'l Parks. God that is depressing just to think about. So in some ways I agree with you, others I don't.
I have a new analogy. ATV's on hiking trails is exactly like carts on golf courses. How can you deny the advantage an ATV can give a disabled person in trying to get to the same place as you go on foot. But widespread use of ATVs will ruin the hike for those that still like to get to their destination on foot.
Thanks.
In any case, the market has spoken on golf.
I agree, and have conceded defeat numerous times. I am no longer trying to rid the world of cartgolf. In the past I had to make the yearly trip to Scotland or Ireland to experience the type of golf I love. Now I just have to drive 350 miles north. I worry when people talk about turning Bandon into yet another American golf resort -- probably very similar to how you would feel if National Parks were opened up to unlimited ATVs.
Cheers,
Dan King
The glorious thing is that thousands of golfers, in park land, on windy downs, in gorse, in heather, by the many-sounding sea, enjoy their imbecilities, revel in their infirmities, and from failure itself draw that final victory - the triumph of hope.
--R.C. Robertson-Glasgow
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I try to be civil but I'm sick and fucking tired of the cart argument and the inclusion of nonexistent WMD's and such. What does that have to do with anything?
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I'm sick and fucking tired of people saying (or typing) they are sick and fucking tired.
Cheers,
Dan King
Mainly just responding to include this quote:
I think that all good, right thinking people in this country are sick and tired of being told that all good, right thinking people in this country are fed up with being told that all good, right thinking people in this country are fed up with being sick and tired. I'm certainly not, and I'm sick and tired of being told that I am.
--Graham Chapman
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I'm sick and fucking tired of people saying they are sick and fucking tired.
Cheers,
Dan King
Mainly just responding to include this quote:
I think that all good, right thinking people in this country are sick and tired of being told that all good, right thinking people in this country are fed up with being told that all good, right thinking people in this country are fed up with being sick and tired. I'm certainly not, and I'm sick and tired of being told that I am.
--Graham Chapman
I think I'm the first to say it. Be careful, that Chapman guy had the gay.
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Sam Morrow writes:
I think I'm the first to say it. Be careful, that Chapman guy had the gay.
That's exactly what made him so fabulous.
His nickname was also Gray. Makes you think!
Cheers,
Dan King
Graham Chapman, co-author of the "Parrot Sketch", is no more. He has ceased to be. Bereft of life, he rests in peace. He's kicked the bucket, hopped the twig, bit the dust, snuffed it, breathed his last, and gone to meet the great Head of Light Entertainment in the sky. And I guess that we're all thinking how sad it is that a man of such talent, of such capability for kindness, of such unusual intelligence, should now so suddenly be spirited away at the age of only forty-eight, before he'd achieved many of the things of which he was capable, and before he'd had enough fun. Well, I feel that I should say: nonsense. Good riddance to him, the freeloading bastard, I hope he fries. And the reason I feel I should say this is he would never forgive me if I didn't, if I threw away this glorious opportunity to shock you all on his behalf. Anything for him but mindless good taste.
--John Cleese at the memorial for Graham Chapman
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I try to be civil but I'm sick and fucking tired of the cart argument and the inclusion of nonexistent WMD's and such. What does that have to do with anything?
I was just thinking how interesting this discussion was* and how great an impact how you chose to play a course impacts your view of the architectural quality of the course..specifically, what aspects of architecture you value. Walkers might favor routing...riders might really love shot values.
What type of golf you play has a HUGE impact on what courses you like and what type of architecture you prefer. On top of riding vs. walking, there is low handicapper/high handicapper, big hitter/great putter, aerial game/bump and run, etc, etc, etc.
And, I still don't want Bandon to allow carts for everyone. :)
*except for the WMD tangent.
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Never was a big Monty Python fan, they had funny stuff but nothing that great. Besides, I've seen John Cleese in a cart, he's not a golfer.
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I try to be civil but I'm sick and fucking tired of the cart argument and the inclusion of nonexistent WMD's and such. What does that have to do with anything?
I was just thinking how interesting this discussion was* and how great an impact how you chose to play a course impacts your view of the architectural quality of the course..specifically, what aspects of architecture you value. Walkers might favor routing...riders might really love shot values.
What type of golf you play has a HUGE impact on what courses you like and what type of architecture you prefer. On top of riding vs. walking, there is low handicapper/high handicapper, big hitter/great putter, aerial game/bump and run, etc, etc, etc.
And, I still don't want Bandon to allow carts for everyone. :)
*except for the WMD tangent.
I'm with you Mac, it's a shame it became political.
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Sam Morrow writes:
Never was a big Monty Python fan, they had funny stuff but nothing that great.
That is probably why you are that guy.
Besides, I've seen John Cleese in a cart, he's not a golfer.
If you need your comedians to be golfers, your choices are limited.
Not non-existent, but limited (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfm8gR12hA4)
Cheers,
Dan King
Golf, strangling small animals and masturbation.
--Graham Chapman listing his hobbies in All-England Summarize Proust Competitio
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Sam Morrow writes:
Never was a big Monty Python fan, they had funny stuff but nothing that great.
That is probably why you are that guy.
Besides, I've seen John Cleese in a cart, he's not a golfer.
If you need your comedians to be golfers, your choices are limited.
Not non-existent, but limited (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfm8gR12hA4)
Cheers,
Dan King
Golf, strangling small animals and masturbation.
--Graham Chapman listing his hobbies in All-England Summarize Proust Competitio
You ever seen the I Love Lucy with Jimmy Demaret?
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Never was a big Monty Python fan, they had funny stuff but nothing that great.
Nothing that great. That's funny.
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Never was a big Monty Python fan, they had funny stuff but nothing that great.
Nothing that great. That's funny.
Go to sleep. :D
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I'm with you Mac, it's a shame it became political.
Sam,
You'll notice in post #224 who directed speech in that ridiculous direction. Should we engage and silence this relic of the ancient law? Nah, just give him another featured interview.
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I'm with you Mac, it's a shame it became political.
Sam,
You'll notice in post #224 who directed speech in that ridiculous direction. Should we engage and silence this relic of the ancient law? Nah, just give him another featured interview.
;D
That's a good one Ben, go get a Lone Star and put it on my tab.
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Never was a big Monty Python fan, they had funny stuff but nothing that great.
Nothing that great. That's funny.
Go to sleep. :D
Take him away. I want him fighting wabid wild animals within a week!
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Never was a big Monty Python fan, they had funny stuff but nothing that great.
Nothing that great. That's funny.
Go to sleep. :D
Take him away. I want him fighting wabid wild animals within a week!
Where is Dr. Gray, why isn't he here anymore?
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Sam Morrow writes:
You ever seen the I Love Lucy with Jimmy Demaret?
Click here for the I Love Lucy episode featuring Jimmy Demaret (http://www.cbs.com/classics/i_love_lucy/video/?pid=eS7vnGB14h20mYIVyFGfN9xgymoFywhe&vs=Full%20Episodes&play=true)
Cheers,
Dan King
You've got to be rich to have a swing like that.
--Bob Hope (on the elegant swing of Bing Crosby)
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I bet Lucy was a freak.
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The users of carts shout the loudest when the question is raised. It’s a guilt thing I believe, it stems from the deep in-depth knowledge that they are cheating themselves by riding. They know it saves energy allowing more power to their long shots against a walking player, they know it assists in conserving their strength, but so much is their desire to kick some ass that they continue to defend the indefensible.
Nevertheless I do not blame the weak minded, lazy, un-committed or even the cunning players for using a cart, it is deemed legal. The shoulder of blame must rest with the governing bodies for allowing the game to be so abused, but I suppose in their defence they did not know what they were doing, they never thought through the consequences to the game and the moral question are carts acceptable in a game that has a tradition of 600 years of walking. In any other sport it would not have been accepted as it changes the very structure of the game, deleting the need to walk the average 3-4 mile course with all the permutations that encompasses. The golfing equivalent of a WMD in the destruction is has brought the game of golf.
So Sam you have a reason for the use of WMD, pity you could not have seen it for yourself.
PS Sam are the modern freaks the able bodied players who use carts?
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I took the last four days off from the site and checked in periodically on this thread. I learned the following:
Bandon will not change its policy (confirmed by Mike Keiser);
No babies have died during this discussion, so nothing bad has happened;
Mac and Melvyn have a cart waiting for them at Dismal River.
I played Dismal the past four days and if there is a Jesus, he will allow carts.
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I took the last four days off from the site and checked in periodically on this thread. I learned the following:
Bandon will not change its policy (confirmed by Mike Keiser);
No babies have died during this discussion, so nothing bad has happened;
Mac and Melvyn have a cart waiting for them at Dismal River.
I played Dismal the past four days and if there is a Jesus, he will allow carts.
;D ;D
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Sorry Terry there may be a God(s) but no Jesus in the historical records, so there should be no carts. Disagree then where is your proof, something I believe you seek - well sometimes in your position.
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Melvyn,
I hope I have this colloquialism correctly: Sod off.
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Terry...
I ride/walk at about a 50/50 split. So far, 100% of the time at Dismal...and I love every minute of it.
EDIT...I typed this up a day or so ago and was going to post it, but the thread kind of went haywire, again. Since Terry mentioned me by name, I figured now might be a good time to actually post it...
Like Dan King says, I tend to agree with Melvyn more than I disagree. Do I agree with him 100%. NO!! But he hits on a few things, quite frequently ;) , that really make sense to me.
He always mentions golf was born a walking game and then Dan King says, “The problem is they (carts) have taken over golf, and now people think it is just plain silly to think of golf as a walking game.” This totally hits home with me. When I started golf, 5 years ago, I never gave a second thought about riding a cart. People I played with rode…period. All the time…almost everywhere…except East Lake…as it is walking only. This was always a special treat and people always raved about how cool an experience playing East Lake was because we walked there. Then I stumble on to GCA.com and see people talking about walking golf. You know what, walking and playing golf is a special treat…but you can do it virtually anytime you want…you don’t have to play a special venue like East Lake. Now, you will get weird looks and people will think you are a bit odd…at least at a lot of US courses…but usually you can do it.
Now…alluding to the fact that people like Bob Huntley aren’t golfers rather players is not one of the aspects of Melvyn’s rants I agree with. Bob is quite clearly a dedicated golfer through and through. I’ve never met him, but I have communicated with him and he is certainly the real deal. And I do not walk 100% of the time. Heck, maybe I walk 50% of the time…and some venues I can’t walk (my last venture was to Kingsley and Crystal Downs, too hilly for me…I rode 100% of those rounds). If someone wants to say I’m not a golfer for this…I don’t care. I’m comfortable with who I am and, although at first I was offended and hurt by Melvyn’s rants, I don’t mind whatever he (or anyone else) chooses to call me. And, yes, Melvyn has made it quite clear that people with health issues who need to ride a cart are a separate category of people from the healthy who choose to ride. But again, I’m comfortable enough with who I am that even if I was 100% physical capable of walking 100% of the time but yet chose to ride a percentage of the time…call me whatever you want…it doesn’t phase me.
Ben Sims…I find it motivating in the aspects that are centered on committing to the game of golf. Melvyn says the following, “Golf is a game of tradition, it has its own rules of conduct, it was and is a way of life. To be known as a golfer you knew that it would have an effect upon not just you but your wife and family, not to mention your social activities. Being a golfer you commit to that knowing that it is the consequence of your own actions. The game engulfs you and all the ones you love.”
Again, I find/found this to be true. And it is not just this post by Melvyn, but all of his past comments about committing to the game. It rings true to me and also reminds me of quote from the Shivas Irons book, “Y’ell come away from the links with a new hold on life, that is certain if ye play the game with all your heart.”
I’m not the best player in the world. I’m not an architect. I’m not involved with golf as a business. But I have committed to the game on a deep level. (Like I’m sure many others of you have as well). And my life is much, much better for it. I’ve experienced wonderful times on the golf course and traveling to the golf course. I’ve learned a lot about myself. I’ve learned a lot about others. I’ve found many new friends. And I’m could go on and on about the benefits to my life through the game of golf. In fact, the more I commit to it…the better my life gets. Including trying to walk as much as I can while I play.
Again, do I agree with Melvyn on every thought/idea/tact he has or takes? No. But do I agree with a lot of his points? Yes. I think a lot of us do.
Do I think Bandon should allow golf carts for the non-disabled? No. It is part of the resorts charm and it attracts a specific type of golfer. Generally, I tend to like that specific type of golfer. I’ll certainly be back to Bandon because of this.
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Mac,
Interesting!
(Of course all the following is predicated upon you aren't playing with someone talking your ear off.)
What part of the sensation of golf is most lost in a cart?
If on the ocean, is it the loss of walking with while contemplating the sounds of the waves crashing?
Or in a parkland course, is it the loss of smelling the flowers or hearing the birds chirping?
What is lost in a cart do you think?
Or what is gained by walking if so able?
Thanks!
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Mac:
Thanks for sharing your heart. You are a good man.
I like to walk. I mostly walk. People who think about golf, discuss golf, read about it, hold its history dear and care about the game are GOLFERS, whether they ride or walk. Read Mac's post. He is a golfer. It makes no difference whether he rides or walks. Golf is part of his life, part of his soul. That is what makes us GOLFERS.
Bart
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People who think about golf, discuss golf, read about it, hold its history dear and care about the game are GOLFERS, whether they ride or walk.
Bart, I agree. A lot more goes into it rather than if someone walks or not. IMO.
Gray…first off, great questions! I’ll do my best to answer. I’d love other to chime in as well. Maybe we can make this a really good discussion thread AND tie it all together with architecture.
What part of the sensation of golf is most lost in a cart?
Exercise and fatigue are two things that are missing while riding a cart. Part of the exercise is you have to carry what you bring. No sandwich, three beers, coffee, and a Danish waiting for you in the cart. Maybe you can stick some things in your bag, but you’ll feel it on holes 9-18, 19-36.
I love the conversations with an entire foursome as well. I think this adds to the sense of comraderie.
A sense of accomplishment might also be missing. At least it is for me. I love the feeling of, “I did it! Walked all 18!!” Now this may be a “me” thing, but I’m sure we still all might have that sense on some level. Jim Colton might get the feeling after 155 holes, but it only takes me 18. :)
I also think the interaction with the land is missing. Slopes, elevation changes, grass types, are all more acutely felt while walking. Add in heat, wind, humidity, etc and you are totally more in tune with nature while walking and dealing with the elements.
Okay, I’ll stop on this one for now…but I think we can come up with a great list of stuff on this front.
If on the ocean, is it the loss of walking with while contemplating the sounds of the waves crashing?
Or in a parkland course, is it the loss of smelling the flowers or hearing the birds chirping?
I think I hit on these last two questions in my previous answer in the interaction with the land part. But some interesting feelings while walking on an Oceanside course for me were: At Kiawah, with the wind absolutely howling and disorienting me badly on the back 9; cumulative effect I suppose. In a parkland setting (or maybe a bayside setting): Shinnecock Hills…rubbing the grass, being stunned by the quality of the maintenance, and then really feeling the elevation changes on 9, 10, 11. And then seeing that great clubhouse lingering for a long-time at the end of 16. What a great walking experience!!
What is lost in a cart do you think?
I think you can take the inverse of what I mentioned above to get to this answer. But let’s flip the script.
WHAT IS GAINED BY USING A CART?
You can play more golf and not be as fatigued. For example, Ballyneal really kills me when I walk. The last 4, or so, holes are always a pain and fatigue induced blur for me. If I was a member there, I could not do 36 walking in a day. And like I mentioned in my first post on this one, I was really hurting at Bandon after day two. I never really recovered but I did finish.
Also, people who normally wouldn’t be able to play are able to. Elderly, disabled, amputees, etc. This is a HUGE deal in my eyes.
Places that normally wouldn’t be able to support golf, can with carts. Deserts, hot humid climates, hilly/severe terrain, etc. Again, this is a HUGE deal to me. Now someone who lives on Long Island, the sand belt of Australia, Scotland, or places like that probably doesn’t care or “get” this. But someone in Phoenix, a full-time resident of Florida, someone in the mountains knows what I’m saying.
Again, I think we can get some more discussion on these points.
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Mac,
Good on you, thanks for listening and giving it a go.
Right on with the climate that does not support walking golf!!!!
Never played Ballyneal, but hope to,
Thanks !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Mac,
I like almost everything you wrote. I'd like to add one thing.
SOME COURSES ARE WORTH WALKING, SOME AREN'T. :)
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What a load of self-absorbed crap! Kumbaya to all five of you. Just as well, four is too many for two carts.
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What a load of self-absorbed crap! Kumbaya to all five of you. Just as well, four is too many for two carts.
If I understand correctly the US system the above is from a man who requires the will and of course by that I mean the votes of his people to take office.
Clearly with Terry there is just no justice in his little world. Or is it his inability to examine the facts correctly and offer an unbiased verdict or should that be judgement.
I am minded of the old saying ‘People in glasshouses should not throw stones’, however I guess Terry does not understand what it means, now there is justice for you.
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so if we are all golfers, then it is clear that walking is preferrable to riding in seeking the most enlightened and thorough experience of the game and the course.
it's also clear that golf can be enjoyed from a cart
each course can be impacted by the whther it encourages walking or riding
walking courses inherently appear less impacted by concrete and such facilities to facilitate riding
i prefer courses where walking is encouraged and carts are absent
my preference is to walk and carry at all times
and I prefer bow hunting rather than rifle hunting :o
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so if we are all golfers, then it is clear that walking is preferrable to riding in seeking the most enlightened and thorough experience of the game and the course.
it's also clear that golf can be enjoyed from a cart
each course can be impacted by the whther it encourages walking or riding
walking courses inherently appear less impacted by concrete and such facilities to facilitate riding
i prefer courses where walking is encouraged and carts are absent
my preference is to walk and carry at all times
and I prefer bow hunting rather than rifle hunting :o
I've tried to get into bow hunting but don't have the time to practice. I want the instant gratification, I guess like when I ride in a cart with non golfers like Bernhardt.
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I tried bow hunting a few times and was nearly stampeded! The deer must have known I had no chance of success.
I am sensing that some folks thinks walkers have some sort of divine right of fairways and knowledge, but I hope my senses are wrong.
Ciao
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I'm calling BS on the "mandatory cart" nonsense.
I've played 125+ courses now and maybe 10 of them were "no walking allowed"....and for good reason, they were mostly mountain style golf courses in Utah with severe elevation differentials.
I agree with Bill S that there is more than a fair bit of hypocrisy with what is "proper" for the game and what isn't, especially as it pertains to modern equipment and modern conditioning of golf courses.
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I'm calling BS on the "mandatory cart" nonsense.
...
That's right. "mandatory cart" is nonsense.
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Kalen,
One would do well to avoid generalizing outside one's own local environment. And a lot of "walking allowed" courses in my area are "no walking allowed" if you want to play on a weekend morning. Or semi-privates allow members to walk but green fee players much ride.
There are I believe eight other courses within a 10-mile radius of my club. On a Saturday morning if for some reason I don't play at my home course I will either be required to ride in a cart, play the incredibly crowded county-owned course or go somewhere outside that 10-mile radius. Now maybe I live in the middle of some kind of geographical oddity but I doubt it.
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Kalen,
One would do well to avoid generalizing outside one's own local environment. And a lot of "walking allowed" courses in my area are "no walking allowed" if you want to play on a weekend morning. Or semi-privates allow members to walk but green fee players much ride.
There are I believe eight other courses within a 10-mile radius of my club. On a Saturday morning if for some reason I don't play at my home course I will either be required to ride in a cart, play the incredibly crowded county-owned course or go somewhere outside that 10-mile radius. Now maybe I live in the middle of some kind of geographical oddity but I doubt it.
Brent,
I agree with what your saying in concept, but unfortunately it would seem you're falling into the trap of generalizing based on your small area. I'm basing my sample size on various courses spread across Washington, Oregon, Idaho, Utah, California, Montana, New Mexico, and Colorado. I'd bet my entire months salary that less than 20% of courses in the US prohibit walking, and more likely less than 10%....that's a teeny minority.
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Check back with me in 15 years. Along about 1997 when I hadn't been playing very long there were only one or two courses in my area that wouldn't let you walk any time you like. Now it's up to 50/50 or worse. They'll come for your courses eventually.
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Kalen Braley writes:
I'm calling BS on the "mandatory cart" nonsense.
Okay.
I've played 125+ courses now and maybe 10 of them were "no walking allowed"....and for good reason, they were mostly mountain style golf courses in Utah with severe elevation differentials.
And how many have you played that were walking only? The trend is going the wrong way. Even on this forum, where it was always -- and might still be -- dominated by fans of traditional golf, there are a lot of posters wanting Bandon to become more cart friendly. I find it very disturbing that you people can't be happy with 99 percent of American golf courses cart friendly.
I agree with Bill S that there is more than a fair bit of hypocrisy with what is "proper" for the game and what isn't, especially as it pertains to modern equipment and modern conditioning of golf courses.
I've claimed the mantle of hypocrite many times. I've ridden and even driven carts numerous times for a variety of reasons. However, I love walking golf and would never have that same love for cartball. The point of this thread was to argue for leaving Bandon our little oasis in America for those that love walking golf.
I also like to point out the damages carts have done to the game I love. There are plenty of people that believe walking and carts are an either or decision, without recognizing the damage carts have done to golf.
Cheers,
Dan King
The civilized man has built a coach, but has lost the use of his feet.
--Ralph Waldo Emerson, "Self-Reliance," 1841
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Melvyn,
Re your concern about a competitive advantage for cart-ballers in matches against walkers, the following is a small study of the physical and scoring impact of walking vs riding.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9903EFDC153EF931A3575BC0A9669D8B63&pagewanted=all (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9903EFDC153EF931A3575BC0A9669D8B63&pagewanted=all)
Not surprisingly, more calories are consumed when walking (721) than when riding (411). The impact on scoring is not so dramatically different. Riding led to better scoring than walking and carrying, but walking with a push cart led to better scoring than riding. So, I guess you'll need to regulate the use of push carts if you want to level the playing field.
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What about walking with a caddie?
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I would bet that walking with a caddie would yield the best scoring...especially if said caddie was good at reading subtle breaks :)
I wish I could play every round of golf that way.
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Read the article. A few less calories than carrying, but better scoring than cart-ballers while not as good scoring as push-carters, although I would imagine the caddie in the study was more bag carrier than green reader.
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What about walking with a caddie?
JC,
Read the article...it covers four scenarios.
Cheers
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I say no.
I doubt I'll return since economics compel me to play 36 without a caddy while my pathetic physical condition - primarily my back, simply won't allow it. I see no reason for Bandon to accomodate me and frankly would be embarrassed if they did.
Does anybody know if Streamsong will have carts ;)
Bogey
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Does anybody know if Streamsong will have carts ;)
Bogey
I should have known somebody would go there. And I might have guessed who it would be.
Where's that BITE ME thread again...
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My two cents with respect to walking vs riding and scores. In my 20's when I was a hacker. We would usually get a cart, wouldnt ride it all the time but we were young and enjoying a couple of beers. We used to refer to the cart as a beer holder. Now that I am in my 40's and play the game more seriously, I walk because it gets the blood going. I think my scoring gets better due to the fact that I walk. If you are in a cart most of the round, you are not warming up and getting loose. If I am playing a course with mandatory carts, typically I let the other guy drive and I walk to my ball. I think walking would actually be a benefit over carts if you are in somewhat good health.
I was surprised to see that carting actually consumed that many calories vs walking, as I carry a little bit of weight up front, I was kinda hoping for a bigger spread in calories but will still walk the course, I need the exercise and really need to lower my front 9 scores, I am 4 shots worse on the front versus the back.
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there is typically a lot of walking incidental to a game of golf played from a cart.
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Wonder why the study only consisted of 9 holes per round?
I would bet the scoring statistics would be different if all 18 were factored.
Nice study for comparison purposes but way too many course variables for any concrete conclusions.
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Brent
I guess there is, I was pretty surprised when I read the numbers though. Never really thought about it prior but just kinda assumed that it would be a bigger spread. Playing a 6400 yrd course, I would walk those 6400 yds plus somewhat the same in incidentals.
It was interesting to read.
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And how many have you played that were walking only? The trend is going the wrong way. Even on this forum, where it was always -- and might still be -- dominated by fans of traditional golf, there are a lot of posters wanting Bandon to become more cart friendly. I find it very disturbing that you people can't be happy with 99 percent of American golf courses cart friendly.
America for those that love walking golf.
Dan King
You should really say the trend is going the wrong way according to you, not as an absolute. What do you mean by "you people"?
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You should really say the trend is going the wrong way according to you, not as an absolute. What do you mean by "you people"?
Come on Captain, it's not like he's Ross Perot speaking to the NAACP convention.
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Bogey,
All in good fun!
MP
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I don't know what is wrong with everyone. We should be thrilled that Dan and Melyvn take time out of thier busy schedules to weigh in on these things.
I mean its not easy being...
(http://images.wikia.com/wikiality/images/a/a7/JJ%26E.jpg)
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Mark Pritchett writes:
You should really say the trend is going the wrong way according to you, not as an absolute.
Of course it was according to me. Even you were able to figure that out. Do you really want me to put IMHO after every thought I post?
What do you mean by "you people"?
Why don't you take a shot at guessing who I mean by "you people." I really don't think it is that tough of a guess given the context.
Kalen, wouldn't the Judge, Jury and Executioner be Mr. Keiser? Melvyn and I are only weighing in on a subject in this forum. I can understand with your weak arguments not wanting anyone to oppose your views, but this is a place for discussion and debate. All you need to do is come up with better arguments.
Cheers,
Dan King
Anyone nit-picking enough to write a letter of correction to an editor doubtless deserves the error that provoked it.
--Alvin Toffler
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Dan,
I get the feeling that you believe the playing of golf in a manner different from your idealistic method is not "true" golf or "pure" golf or whatever you choose to call it. Perhaps I am wrong.
Mark
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Dan,
The arguments presented in this thread are valid... just because you and Melyvn just choose not to agree with them, does not change thier intrinsic nature and make them "invalid". I will continue to be inclusive of all, and you can continue to be a divisive closet Bush boy. ;)
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Mark Pritchett writes:
I get the feeling that you believe the playing of golf in a manner different from your idealistic method is not "true" golf or "pure" golf or whatever you choose to call it. Perhaps I am wrong.
I'm not going to say IMHO after everything I post, but please recognize what I am going to say is my opinion.
I think the original intent of golf carts was a good thing. Golfers that did not have the physical ability to play a round of golf could still get out to the golf course and play golf. This was noble and a good thing.
However, the prevalent use of carts in the golf world has changed the game. Courses are now designed that can not be walked. There are courses out there that can be walked but for economic reasons golfers are not allowed to walk. It's brought many people to a game who really do not understand the grand traditions of the game. It's slowed down the game.
The move from golf to cartball has been bad for the game.
Kalen Braley writes:
The arguments presented in this thread are valid...
I didn't say they were invalid, just weak. I think there have been valid arguments on this thread, but I was referring to your arguments.
just because you and Melyvn just choose not to agree with them, does not change thier intrinsic nature and make them "invalid".
I think you should look up the word intrinsic. I don't think you understand the meaning of the word.
I will continue to be inclusive of all
This is why you want 100 percent compliance with your wishes?
and you can continue to be a divisive closet Bush boy
I have no idea what this is about.
Cheers,
Dan King
It ought to be called cartball. It isn't even golf.
--Sandy Tatum
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One of my favorite places in golf is a walking only course.
I do not feel compelled to worry about how other people go about their golf, let alone try to label what it should be called.
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I wonder what sport Casey Martin will be playing at the US Open next week?
Per Melvyn, the USGA could have a champion of a sport that does not exist.
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We now have cartball, caddyball, pushcart ball and carryball, all versions of what used to be called golf.
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Mark Prichett writes:
I do not feel compelled to worry about how other people go about their golf, let alone try to label what it should be called.
Sounds like your beef is with Mr. Tatum.
Cheers,
Dan King
Golf is not a good walk spoiled. It is becoming a good walk prohibited. Show me the common sense in this and I promise I will relent. But there is no common sense at all in the prohibition of walking.
--Lorne Rubenstein
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Kalen
Using a cart when playing golf is not playing golf. You and others think it is but the fact that you do not walk kills your argument stone dead. The traditions of 600 years dictate that walking is the way the game is played.
The R&A in their stupidity and gross betrayal of the game and their duty of care to the game of golf authorised their use, yet not in The Open. So according to the R&A they are partly legal or acceptable, yet morally, and traditionally they are a betrayal over what golf stands for which is walking and thinking.
Because you and others use carts does not make them acceptable to real golfers. However commitment is not high on those who prefer to ride taking the lazy option. I suspect the real problem is that riders have difficulty in thinking and co-ordinating their brains so need help, hence why GPS is being fitted to carts. Try to keep you to your cart paths or find you if you get lost on a course with blind Holes.
You have betrayed the heart and spirit of the game by Riding, yet you cannot see it. Go play you version but just call it by its true name and stop belittling the great game of golf by associating it with carts.
Melvyn
PS Courses that ban walking should be forced to remove the name Golf from their title and any designer involved with no walking courses is no friend to the Royal & Ancient game of golf. Tell me what is the Judas rate to design a No Walking course?
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I am not aware of any courses in my area that prohibit walking.
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I think it can't be called a golf course unless horses pulled the plows that dug the bunkers.
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Terry,
Are you taking up 16" softball for a summer league? Because you certainly served one up here.... 8)
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According to Melvyn I'm not a "real golfer."
What am I?
A fake golfer?
A counterfeit golfer?
A bogus golfer?
Just a dude?
An imaginary golfer?
An erstwhile golfer?
A wannabe golfer?
A surreal golfer?
A golfer non grata?
A fictitious golfer?
An ostensible golfer?
An artificial golfer?
A so-called golfer?
A sham golfer?
A spurious golfer?
An illegitimate golfer?
A bastard golfer?
A meretritious golfer?
A fraud?
A hoax?
A posuer?
Well?
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On a majority of my rounds I am left with the choice of a cart for $25 or a caddie for $75. I will take the cart to save the $50 despite preferring the caddie. Now my buddies, who double strap click and carry, run from the $25 cart fee. This is a cheapness paradox only found in golf.
As in all issues in life this argument can be solved by following the money.
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The history of golf carts and the USA golf culture has been a combination of "follow the money" and "I've got a hammer and I'm looking for a nail". Once a fleet of carts has been leased, gassed up and is sitting there ready to be used you've set up a situation that in the long term is going to demand that every golfer on the property rent and use one of those carts, whether he wants to or not.
It may not be something that can be forced on people this year or even this decade but eventually the combination of someone having already put those carts right there by the clubhouse and that same somebody getting paid real money every time a golfer sits in one will wear down the resistance just as sure as one little trickle of a stream will eventually wear away a gigantic slab of granite.
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Brent,
That is simply not true. Many members are already tapped out at $600/month plus food minimums. Make them take a cart and they are gone. There are so few course owners left that the ones remaining are not that stupid.
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OK, you probably have a point for the $10,000 a year clubs. About halfway down the food chain where I live it seems to come down to the member owned clubs keep on walking while the for-profit clubs gradually restrict (although not necessarily totally eliminate) their members to using carts. At least during prime times. It's just irresistible even when they're hemorrhaging members month after month.
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I think a few of you were born in the wrong age. These people are "your" people and would have shared your exclusionary viewpoints!! ;D
(http://static.newworldencyclopedia.org/c/c8/Opposed_to_suffrage.jpg)
(http://www.oxfordaasc.com/public/features/archive/0507/images/pe0011-01.jpg)
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On a majority of my rounds I am left with the choice of a cart for $25 or a caddie for $75. I will take the cart to save the $50 despite preferring the caddie. Now my buddies, who double strap click and carry, run from the $25 cart fee. This is a cheapness paradox only found in golf.
As in all issues in life this argument can be solved by following the money.
Paradox or perhaps irrationality. Consider how much a year you spend on golf, including carts, and then how much more you would spend if you took caddies just for those rounds you play on courses you could walk (and would rather walk). I suspect that the additional cost is a relatively small percentage of your overall golf spend . . . and one might even say it's irrational not to spend it, given that you prefer caddies.
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Carl,
I sadly play an uber amount. Where I play my most golf and they offer caddies I am able to buy a yearly golf cart pass for $1200. Let's just say that the difference between caddies and carts equals my dues at Dismal. What's irrational now?
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Kalen Braley writes:
I think a few of you were born in the wrong age. These people are "your" people and would have shared your exclusionary viewpoints!! Grin
Yet another strong argument from Mr. Braley.
Cheers,
Dan King
What's really interesting about that is that a lot of these words that were incendiary in their time now seem almost harmless and laughable, because they have this archaic quality.
--Philip Kaufman
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Able-bodied players who resort to carts do not have the commitment let alone real understanding what golf is all about. Add GPS to their carts raises a question do they even know where they are or which course they are playing.
Want to play golf, then simply Walk and discard distance and other outside aids.
In the end the choice is yours, honour the game and its traditions or F@#k them.
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Carl,
I sadly play an uber amount. Where I play my most golf and they offer caddies I am able to buy a yearly golf cart pass for $1200. Let's just say that the difference between caddies and carts equals my dues at Dismal. What's irrational now?
Aren't you a member at other places, too? And how much do you spend on everything else golf-related, like the travel to get to Dismal or your other club(s), balls, shirts, hats, etc., etc.
But if you're playing 200 times a year, I agree that it will add up. Sadly, my number is closer to 35.
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Carl,
I sadly play an uber amount. Where I play my most golf and they offer caddies I am able to buy a yearly golf cart pass for $1200. Let's just say that the difference between caddies and carts equals my dues at Dismal. What's irrational now?
Aren't you a member at other places, too? And how much do you spend on everything else golf-related, like the travel to get to Dismal or your other club(s), balls, shirts, hats, etc., etc.
But if you're playing 200 times a year, I agree that it will add up. Sadly, my number is closer to 35.
If I only played 35 times per year it would be irrational not to spend an additional $5 per day taking caddies. I spend more than that on Red Bull and cold Pop Tarts trying to stay awake driving to play golf.
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Able-bodied players who resort to carts do not have the commitment let alone real understanding what golf is all about. Add GPS to their carts raises a question do they even know where they are or which course they are playing.
Want to play golf, then simply Walk and discard distance and other outside aids.
In the end the choice is yours, honour the game and its traditions or F@#k them.
Melvyn,
Curious if this is your sentiment towards Casey Martin? As much as I agree with many of your points, and respect your old school passion for the roots of the game, you come off sounding bitter...and it saddens me. Especially when such words (to my ear) seem contrary to that very same passion.
Cheers...and have a restful night! ;)
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Will
Bitter, never, repetitive yes, but then its the game I seek to protect, because if nothing is done in 30 years or so golf may just be a non-walking game.
Let those who wish to ride then ride, but do not call that game golf. Leave golf to the walkers and those who wish go play your cart ball, but no that will not happen, because many of our fellow players want their cake and eat it , but not willing to put in the commitment,
Melvyn
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Will
Bitter, never, repetitive yes, but then its the game I seek to protect, because if nothing is done in 30 years or so golf may just be a non-walking game.
Well, at least you concede it will still be called golf. ;D