Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Dan Byrnes on May 27, 2012, 03:04:41 PM
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The assistant pro at my club is a pretty good player. Wins just about all the sectional events, has a top 2 in the National Assistants Championships, playing in the club pro, section Open qualifier winner, several mini tour wins. He is in mid 30's and working hard to get to the next level. So top level events are a big deal to him.
Recently our sections US Open Qualifier was hosted at a McGregor Links. The course conditions were awful from a maintenance point of view, they weren't to open to practice rounds either. While I realize they are a private club but why host the event if you don't do it right. It is important to these folks and a reflection of the club.
Today he tells me that the host of the Massachusetts Open said the couldn't accomadate a practice round on a Sunday afternoon for him. Now the club did give some availability a few weeks earlier but he had another event and couldn't make it. Really? The club is that busy on a Sunday evening? Seems strange.
He shakes it off like the professional he is but I was surprised.
When events like this have been played at clubs where I have been a member it was never an issue. I would host any of these folks myself but I wouldn't tolerate my club treating folks like this. I would be embarrassed.
He was invited to a Taylor Made event at Myopia Hunt and he asked to just look at the course let alone play it. No, was the answer. This event is a regional tournament for Tayor Made staffers and a national qualifier. I understand Myopia is a high end place but surely they could accommodate him?
So for these two events he has to play with no practice round.
I was really disappointed to hear this. Am I just imagining that it shouldn't be like this?
Dan
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Dan,
I am surprised to hear that - I would think all clubs would allow one practice round the week or day before the tournament. Do they really expect all the players to know a member to play with and/or sponsor them? The local tournaments I play in, always have a practice round usually the day before the tournament.
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This is pretty typical. A private club is kind enough to lend their course for a qualifier. They even open the course up for practice rounds on specific dates. Thank yous are in order, but noooooooo, they get bitching about lousy conditioning and are called rude for not giving in to every players schedule and whims. No good deed ever goes unpunished.
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I just coached at a high school year-end tournament that was hosted by a private club on Cape Cod. They could not have been more accommodating. The tournament was last Monday. They allowed teams to come down the Sunday before to play a practice round. I also know of a few schools that went down earlier in the season and were permitted to play. This course had nothing to gain financially, yet they treated us like we were all members. It was great to see a nice place like that show such a commitment to junior golf.
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To host any USGA qualifier, you need to make a block open for practice rounds.
The thing is that there is no regulation on when that time is or how much they can charge for it. Often, clubs who are shutting down their course for a day, wont want to shut it down the day before as well. To you point, if you are going to host a practice round, then you should do it right.
Personally, I have never had an issue playing a practice round before any tournament, however, it is rare for the block of availability to be the day before the tourney.
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It doesn't 'feel' right to deny the practice round, but Walpole CC has hosted numerous MGA, NEPGA, USGA events, etc., in the past. They did offer up some times for practice rounds, and that puts them squarely in the column of privates allowing access.
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To host any USGA qualifier, you need to make a block open for practice rounds.
. . . To you point, if you are going to host a practice round, then you should do it right. . . .
On the one hand, the clubs should do it right. On the other hand, I think it's up to the USGA, local section, PGA Tour, etc. to select as hosts for their qualifiers, etc., only those courses that will meet their terms and conditions regarding availability for practice rounds. I'm not sure how much they pay the clubs to host these events -- maybe they need to increase the fees they pay somewhat, and then they could require better opportunities for the competitors.
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This is pretty typical. A private club is kind enough to lend their course for a qualifier. They even open the course up for practice rounds on specific dates. Thank yous are in order, but noooooooo, they get bitching about lousy conditioning and are called rude for not giving in to every players schedule and whims. No good deed ever goes unpunished.
I don't think that is the case at all.. It's not like these guys don't pay $150 for the qualifier. For the McGregor scenario it's clearly an issue of the local USGA not making sure the course is up to the job. Don't sure how this process works but I am working to find out. It seems a better job could be done but I don't know all the facts so not ready to say that for sure.
I guess it's a matter of if the club believes holding such an event is doing something good for golf or an inconvienience?
I hosted the NY Seniors while was President and we pulled out all the stops to accommodate the players. It was a reflection on the club in how it would handle such an event. Players were extremely pleased overall. That course would gladly host the US Open qualifier today and do a great job and supply the best conditions and accomadations possible.
My other club hosted the NYS Am more than once and every effort was made to ensure top conditions and opportunities to play practice rounds and support the players anyway the club could.
Dan
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Any club that does not volunteer to host a one day event every three years should have their members dues to the golf association and handicap fees doubled. The same clubs seem to always host events.
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there is nothing wrong with a club having a set time for practice rounds prior to qualifiers. i think it would be a big help in decisions where one decides to qualify if when you make your selection you had the times and dates of practice rounds available. i know in MA there are a number of sites and you can choose between public and private. i don't think a private club should be expected to make itself as available to competitors to practice as a public course. if this guy wanted to play a practice round at his choosing, then if available he could have searched out a public courses. if you choose to qualify at a private course and they have a set date to offer and if you are not available for that time, my thought is 'tough'. if you had something else to do during the qualifier itself, you probably wouldn't be able to play another day and just turn in your scorecard (obviously). a good lesson here is not to sign up for everything and schedule within your means.
the clubs make themselves available for their associations as a courtesy. i, along with many others, play with my kids weekend afternoons. i would expect my club management to realize that it is not in the clubs best interest to have this time taken by outsiders when a viable alternative is available (such as the said set time for participants to practice). at the end of the day clubs have to take care of their members first. these days especially.
all this given, it is always ok to accept phone calls and see if anything is open or available. worse that can happen is you hear "no". i think this guy gets that.
i would also encourage clubs to have a sheet where better players can let themselves be available to play with competitive visitors who want to see the course
*for some of these events (state am, state mid am, state sr) there are only a handful of players that have a chance to win. we see their names every year. the others are fodder for fees and who hone their game here to take home and compete in club matches - or just guys who want an 'in' on private tracks. so open invitations for practice rounds are asking a bit much.
**this taylormade event sounds like a glorified outing. i'd have to vote "no" for practice rounds to an outing. :)
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In the original post what does poor condition have to do with anything?
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This is pretty typical. A private club is kind enough to lend their course for a qualifier. They even open the course up for practice rounds on specific dates. Thank yous are in order, but noooooooo, they get bitching about lousy conditioning and are called rude for not giving in to every players schedule and whims. No good deed ever goes unpunished.
Sorry, John, but it is not typical. Clubs don't give their course for free... they get paid for every player, at a price they negotiate long in advance... and, practice round availability (at a price) is ALWAYS part of the deal when hosting a significant event. If a club tried to pull that crap on us in SC we would never give them another event.
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In the original post what does poor condition have to do with anything?
This assistant pro sees poor conditioning as a personal insult. How dare a club so ill prepared host such a worthy event filled with such stewards of the game.
Mike,
The club offered practice rounds at a specified date when the assistant chose to play somewhere else. $150 does not buy an unlimited play membership.
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In the original post what does poor condition have to do with anything?
This assistant pro sees poor conditioning as a personal insult. How dare a club so ill prepared host such a worthy event filled with such stewards of the game.
Mike,
The club offered practice rounds at a specified date when the assistant chose to play somewhere else. $150 does not buy an unlimited play membership.
No offense to the original poster but I don't think we are hearing the whole story, I don't think he is keeping from us and I'm not sure if the assistant in question knows the whole story, I think there might be bad blood between clubs in the past.
Plus even if it's a dick move not to allow practice rounds it's still a level playing field if nobody gets practice rounds.
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In the original post what does poor condition have to do with anything?
This has nothing to do with the assistant pro in mention.
This is purely my question based on my conversations with him and many other participants. He had no issues wtth the conditions and you get what you get.
I am just surprised that after the experiences I have seen in hosting State and othe high profile events that the local USGA doesn't have better options or control over things.
I was wondering if my personal experiences were the norm. The events I have been involved with did everything to be sure conditions were the best the could be and that we accommodated all the players needs the best we could. It was a point of pride for the club to be an excellent host.
Dan
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In the original post what does poor condition have to do with anything?
This assistant pro sees poor conditioning as a personal insult. How dare a club so ill prepared host such a worthy event filled with such stewards of the game.
Mike,
The club offered practice rounds at a specified date when the assistant chose to play somewhere else. $150 does not buy an unlimited play membership.
John,
The assistant hasn't complained once. It is my view we are discussing here, so you don't need to speak for either of us. I was simply asking is this the norm or were my previous experiences the exception? I am sure we all realize that $150 doesn't give unlimited play I just would expect they might try and help the guy out. I would be very unhappy if my club didn't and was curious what the folks here thought.
Dan
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Please delete
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Dan,
It was my understating that the assistant told you about his injustices. Looks like I owe him an apology. Something I could use a few practice rounds of myself.
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Again a double post. My apologizes.
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Dan,
It was my understating that the assistant told you about his injustices. Looks like I owe him an apology. Something I could use a few practice rounds of myself.
He certainly told me about not being able to get a practice round because of his schedule, but wasn't complaining. I just was surprised when he inquired for these rounds he was rejected. So only disappointment on his part not complaining. I guess I am doing that for him as it isn't doesn't match my experiences.
Dan
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Just the fact that he wins so many tournaments both locally and nationally has to make you wonder why he couldn't call a fellow assistant and get on, tournament or not. These guys are not paid well and professional courtesy is one of their few perks.
This is 100% different from a civilian asking to play.
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Just the fact that he wins so many tournaments both locally and nationally has to make you wonder why he couldn't call a fellow assistant and get on, tournament or not. These guys are not paid well and professional courtesy is one of their few perks.
This is 100% different from a civilian asking to play.
He did call and the reposnse from the other clubs staff was in my opinion rude.. He shook it off as their club their rules. Once gain if a player was treated in a similar manner at my club I would be embarrassed. My point is not to tit for tat about another club but I thought it was more common for a club to embrace such a competition and want the participants to walk away impressed with both the club and the event.
Dan
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Dan & John,
Both of you make many valid points, and its unfortunate your assistant was not able to get a practice round in at the state open site.
As someone who has been a staff member and participated at clubs hosting MI Am, MI Opens, US Open Locals, Big Ten Conference Championships, Terra Cotta Invitational, and many PGA Section and state events, the most important thing when hosting practice rounds is to be accommodating as possible, but to stick to the rules in place. Your assistant sounds like a class act, but too many goons before and after him will intentionally break policies that were communicated to them, regarding practice rounds. The few ruin it for everyone.
"What do you mean my caddie can't play?"...despite being told, shows up later that day with his caddie who also brought his clubs....
"Well I'm not finished!" ..after he was told carts were to be in by 7, he had been out there for 3.5 hours as a single on an empty course
"Well I'm traveling from Canada so my Dad is going to play with me" ...told he cannot, he still brings him, and pleads for us to let him use his pull-cart (a no go at most Detroit area private clubs)
How about the guy who shows up for his state am practice round in jeans....
or the guy who I played my PAT with, had 13 practice rounds in at a discount rate, before we played (early May in Wisconsin), the guy also had a full entourage following him and his 83-86 didn't exactly work for him
or the guy who brought a cooler and six-pack for a PGA Stroke Play event
or the guy with the sleeve tattoos who brings his tatted and pierced girlfriend for a US Open Local Qualifier practice round...I'm sure guages look good, just not at private clubs.
or when the practice round players hold up the course...looks like 5 hour rounds for two-somes are not limited to the PGA Tour
My Point: The members see and/or interact with these few inconsiderate individuals and go quickly to the professional staff, who will have to take the brunt for this riff raff. Those same members go to the board, and then quickly either no events will be held, or no practice rounds will be permitted.
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Is it even possible to be a high quality assistant and play as much golf as this guy?
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Is it even possible to be a high quality assistant and play as much golf as this guy?
Some clubs hire assistants based on their ability to play golf versus their ability to fold sweaters.
One of their values is to always Play in the wed and fri games. Really adds to the feel of a players club
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Some pretty interesting responses over something that seems pretty harmless.
My opinion...
If your facility is going to accept to host a qualifier for a large tournament, especially something like a US Open Qualifier (which they are getting paid to host), you should make your course available to the entrants. These entrants aren't "raters", or a bunch or lowly assistant golf pros looking for free access to a course. Each one of the entrants paid a $150 fee to try to qualify (a portion of each entry goes toward greens fees). My humble opinion is that the courses shouldn't charge more than $25-$30 for a practice round but if they want to charge more, so be it. But, at least make it available once (preferably the day before).
If your course has a mentality that the entrants should feel blessed and honored that the course even allowed the riff raff in the door, don't host the event. If Sunday afternoon is too important to members to allow a practice round because parent/junior play is high that day or too important to sacrifice for one afternoon a year, don't host the event. Not once did anyone that posted above complain about the money these clubs are receiving for hosting. If your club doesn't need the money then why host the event? The assumption would be that the club is interested in being a part of the qualifying experience. Also, if you're going to host the qualifier, why is it taboo to expect the club to make an attempt to have the course in tournament condition?
In the original post one of the clubs wouldn't even allow a PGA Professional to walk the course, let alone play it. That's embarrassing, IMO. I just played a local qualifier for the US Open at Bermuda Dunes CC last month and they made practice rounds available. They were charging $90. I thought it was steep, but at least it was available. I didn't play a practice round as I have played the course numerous times. Luckily, I won a 7 for 1 playoff and got through to sectionals. Sectionals are at Lake Merced/Harding Park. They have made practice rounds available for free the two afternoons before the tournament. I can't play either day and Lake Merced is allowing me to play midweek for free and Harding is charging me their resident rate. I think that's fair. Both courses seem genuinely interested in hosting the event which is the way it should be. If you're going to host an event like this, do it right.
Jeff F.
P.S.: I have no problem with a club enforcing their rules regarding rounds for caddies being off limits, or dress code, etc. That is to be expected.
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Some pretty interesting responses over something that seems pretty harmless.
My opinion...
If your facility is going to accept to host a qualifier for a large tournament, especially something like a US Open Qualifier (which they are getting paid to host), you should make your course available to the entrants. These entrants aren't "raters", or a bunch or lowly assistant golf pros looking for free access to a course. Each one of the entrants paid a $150 fee to try to qualify (a portion of each entry goes toward greens fees). My humble opinion is that the courses shouldn't charge more than $25-$30 for a practice round but if they want to charge more, so be it. But, at least make it available once (preferably the day before).
If your course has a mentality that the entrants should feel blessed and honored that the course even allowed the riff raff in the door, don't host the event. If Sunday afternoon is too important to members to allow a practice round because parent/junior play is high that day or too important to sacrifice for one afternoon a year, don't host the event. Not once did anyone that hosted above complain about the money these clubs are receiving for hosting. If your club doesn't need the money then why host the event? The assumption would be that the club is interested in being a part of the qualifying experience. Also, if you're going to host the qualifier, why is it taboo to expect the club to make an attempt to have the course in tournament condition?
In the original post one of the clubs wouldn't even allow a PGA Professional to walk the course, let alone play it. That's embarrassing, IMO. I just played a local qualifier for the US Open at Bermuda Dunes CC last month and they made prqactice rounds available. They were charging $90 for the practice round. I thought it was steep, but at least it was available. I didn't play a practice round as I have played the course numerous times. Luckily, I won a 7 for 1 playoff and got through to sectionals. Sectionals are at Lake Merced/Harding Park. They have made practice round available for free the two afternoons before the tournament. I can't play either day and Lake Merced is allowing me to play midweek for free and Harding is charging me their resident rate. I think that's fair. Both courses seem genuinely interested in hosting the event which is the way it should be. If you're going to host an event like this, do it right.
Jeff F.
P.S.: I have no problem with a club enforcing their rules regarding rounds for caddies being off limits, or dress code, etc. That is to be expected.
Right on the money. If you are going to host you need to go all in instead of just putting your big toe in the water. I don`t understand the clubs that host and then make every part of the experience a pain in the ass for the contestants. If you can`t have a bit of flexibility based on someone not being able to get there on the set aside day than don`t host. People do in fact have legit reasons for not being able to get there on a specific day. Again if they only want to host for the cache of putting it on their website or pitch to prospective members then they are missing the point.
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sorry. don't know what happened.
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The assistant pro at my club is a pretty good player. Wins just about all the sectional events, has a top 2 in the National Assistants Championships, playing in the club pro, section Open qualifier winner, several mini tour wins. He is in mid 30's and working hard to get to the next level. So top level events are a big deal to him.
Recently our sections US Open Qualifier was hosted at a McGregor Links. The course conditions were awful from a maintenance point of view, they weren't to open to practice rounds either. While I realize they are a private club but why host the event if you don't do it right. It is important to these folks and a reflection of the club.
Qualifiers are usually scheduled years in advance, therefore it's difficult to predict Mother Nature's influence on the date of the qualifier.
Today he tells me that the host of the Massachusetts Open said the couldn't accomadate a practice round on a Sunday afternoon for him. Now the club did give some availability a few weeks earlier but he had another event and couldn't make it. Really? The club is that busy on a Sunday evening? Seems strange.
You're kidding right ?
Saturdays and Sundays are the two busiest days at private clubs and you want the membership to defer to a non-member ? ? ?
Let me see if I understand this correctly. The club in question provided him with alternative dates, but, HIS schedule couldn't accomodate those dates ? ? ?
This is a problem that transcends golf, the "entitlement" mentality.
When clubs host events and qualifiers, they typically publish the practice round dates.
If a golfer can't make them you want the club to ignore their member needs and cater to a non-member by accomodating HIS particular needs.
Now, EXPAND that to the entire field. Try accomodating 150 or so golfers to the exclusion of satisfying the club's membership.
He shakes it off like the professional he is but I was surprised.
Then you have NO concept of logistics and practicality.
You should be happy that the club has elected to host the Mass Open instead of complaining that the club won't accomodate your friend's needs because they conflict with the club's practice round dates.
When events like this have been played at clubs where I have been a member it was never an issue. I would host any of these folks myself but I wouldn't tolerate my club treating folks like this. I would be embarrassed.
Then, once again, you don't understand the problem and logistics associated with running a tournament with 150 or so competitors.
No one knows the formula for success, but surely the formula for failure is to try to please everyone.
He was invited to a Taylor Made event at Myopia Hunt and he asked to just look at the course let alone play it. No, was the answer. This event is a regional tournament for Tayor Made staffers and a national qualifier. I understand Myopia is a high end place but surely they could accommodate him?
WHY ?
They're hosting the event aren't they ?
Are you sure that NO ONE is entitled to a practice round ?
So for these two events he has to play with no practice round.
Then, he's on an equal footing with every other competitor, NO ?
I was really disappointed to hear this. Am I just imagining that it shouldn't be like this?
Again, let me see if I understand this correctly.
For the first event, the club has offered practice round dates, but, your friend can't make them because he has elected to play in another competition. And, you want the club to ignore or put aside member play on Sunday afternoon, which is usually a heavy play couples time, to accomodate your non-member friend ? ?? ?
Is that correct ?
And you don't understand that ? ? ?
When dealing with 150 so competitors you have to establish guidelines/rules in an effort to try to accomodate everyone, the competitors, officials and club members. You do so by establishing fixed practice round dates and times. If a competitor can't make them due to choice, or scheduling conflicts, he usually can find a member to host him. But, whining that it's not fair is absurd. Asking the club to make a special exception is absurd, especially when multiplied by 150 special exceptions.
You should try running a tournament to see all of the problems that arise, then, maybe, you'll have a better appreciation for how difficult it is to try to please everyone.
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To host any USGA qualifier, you need to make a block open for practice rounds.
. . . To you point, if you are going to host a practice round, then you should do it right. . . .
On the one hand, the clubs should do it right. On the other hand, I think it's up to the USGA, local section, PGA Tour, etc. to select as hosts for their qualifiers, etc., only those courses that will meet their terms and conditions regarding availability for practice rounds.
This is a statement made by someone with ZERO familiarity with respect to clubs hosting events.
Clubs, in general, don't want to host events, for a number of reasons.
Obtaining tournament and qualifying sites is extremely difficult, and, it has to be done years in advance.
The USGA, local section and PGA are LUCKY if they can get a good site.
And you want the hosting club to accept those organizations demand terms ? ? ?
You don't have a clue when it comes to this topic. .
I'm not sure how much they pay the clubs to host these events
HINT: They don't pay them a dime for local qualifiers and tournaments
-- maybe they need to increase the fees they pay somewhat, and then they could require better opportunities for the competitors.
IGNORANCE IS NO EXCUSE UNDER THE LAW.
WHAT FEE ? ? ?
THERE IS NO FEE.
Carl, in the future, ascertain the facts prior to typing
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To host any USGA qualifier, you need to make a block open for practice rounds.
. . . To you point, if you are going to host a practice round, then you should do it right. . . .
On the one hand, the clubs should do it right. On the other hand, I think it's up to the USGA, local section, PGA Tour, etc. to select as hosts for their qualifiers, etc., only those courses that will meet their terms and conditions regarding availability for practice rounds.
This is a statement made by someone with ZERO familiarity with respect to clubs hosting events.
Clubs, in general, don't want to host events, for a number of reasons.
Obtaining tournament and qualifying sites is extremely difficult, and, it has to be done years in advance.
The USGA, local section and PGA are LUCKY if they can get a good site.
And you want the hosting club to accept those organizations demand terms ? ? ?
You don't have a clue when it comes to this topic. .
I'm not sure how much they pay the clubs to host these events
HINT: They don't pay them a dime for local qualifiers and tournaments
-- maybe they need to increase the fees they pay somewhat, and then they could require better opportunities for the competitors.
IGNORANCE IS NO EXCUSE UNDER THE LAW.
WHAT FEE ? ? ?
THERE IS NO FEE.
Carl, in the future, ascertain the facts prior to typing
I do know for a fact that at least one prominent PGA Tour event pays a private club to use it's course for Thurs. pre-qualifying and Monday qualifying for its event. It is the private club I belong to. It's not a lot, but apparently our board thinks it's sufficient.
I'm very surprised to learn that the USGA does not pay clubs/courses that host qualifying events for its tournaments. Thanks for enlightening me. In my opinion, the USGA (or local section) should pay the clubs.
By the way, "local section" mean, in our area, the Carolinas Golf Association, which, among other things, puts on amateur tournaments in NC and SC. Apparently I should not use that term because, in fact, they have no relationship with USGA?
Bottom line, for me: It seems that the USGA has lots of money, that they could well afford to pay clubs for use of their facilities, that they should pay them for the course use and services that makes both sides happy.
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Pat,
I agree with most of what you are saying. But, I do have to say, no course is forced to host these events. If a club is going to host the event I simply feel they should make the effort to have a set time open to entrants to play a practice round. They can charge whatever they like and enforce whatever rules they see fit. If it's for something like the US Open, you'd think clubs would attempt to put forth a welcoming effort, which I would guess the vast majority do.
Jeff F.
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This is pretty typical. A private club is kind enough to lend their course for a qualifier. They even open the course up for practice rounds on specific dates. Thank yous are in order, but noooooooo, they get bitching about lousy conditioning and are called rude for not giving in to every players schedule and whims. No good deed ever goes unpunished.
I don't think that is the case at all.. It's not like these guys don't pay $150 for the qualifier.
The entry fee goes to the "entity" which is sponsoring the tournament and to reimburse the hosting club for incidentals such as meals, IF they are included. The $ 150 you cite does NOT go to the club as a hosting fee.
For the McGregor scenario it's clearly an issue of the local USGA not making sure the course is up to the job.
I've been around for a while, but, I never heard of the "local USGA".
What is the "local USGA"
And, why would the USGA be involved in a McGregor tournament ? ? ?
The USGA is ONLY involved in USGA events.
Don't sure how this process works but I am working to find out.
It seems a better job could be done but I don't know all the facts so not ready to say that for sure.
That's the problem.
You don't know all the facts.
So rather than wait until you obtain the substantive facts, you start whining and complaining
I guess it's a matter of if the club believes holding such an event is doing something good for golf or an inconvienience?
There's always an internal struggle with respect to "donating" the use of the club for "outside" play.
Rather than appreciate the gesture on the club's part, you whine and complain about how unfairly they've treated your friend.
I hosted the NY Seniors while was President and we pulled out all the stops to accommodate the players.
It was a reflection on the club in how it would handle such an event.
So, if ten contestants said that the only day they could come to the club to practice was the day of the club's member-guest, you'd accomodate the ten contestants at the expense of the members and their guests in the Member-guest tournament ? ? ?
Players were extremely pleased overall. That course would gladly host the US Open qualifier today and do a great job and supply the best conditions and accomadations possible.
The U.S. Open is held in Mid-June.
Qualifiers are typically held in May.
Both are scheduled years in advance
Mother Nature, rather than your efforts as President, determines conditions.
My other club hosted the NYS Am more than once and every effort was made to ensure top conditions and opportunities to play practice rounds and support the players anyway the club could.
Are you stating that your club, when hosting the NYS Am, had an unlimited, unrestricted practice round policy ? ? ?
I don't believe it.
Why don't you let us know which club and in what year they hosted the NYS Am, then we can do an archival search and determine if there was a FORMAL practice round policy.
Clubs, for the most part, try to accomodate their members and the tournament field, but, to insist that they accomodate every competitor, irrespective of the disruption to their membership is pure B.S.
I suspect that your friendship with your asst pro has clouded your vision.
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Patrick,
While scolding all of those for mis-stating various things are you suggesting that it is beneath clubs to participate and do so in a manner that is "all in" versus "we'll give them a day and that's it, this is INSERT CLUB after all"?
I would have suspected you looked at it as almost a duty of a fine club to foster competitive golf in such a manner.
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Pat,
One other note...
It might be true that your club or clubs you have intimate knowledge of schedule their US Open Qualifiers "years" in advance but I know for a fact that here in Southern California they still haven't decided on how many local sites they are going to use in the Coachella Valley in 2013, nor have they decided which club they are going to use if they in fact do add one to the schedule. Hardly "years" in advance.
Jeff F.
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I would have suspected you looked at it as almost a duty of a fine club to foster competitive golf in such a manner.
Not just fine clubs,but any club whose members take the game seriously.
But,it's not that simple anymore.Every club struggles with these things.The GM at my club refers to them as "free outings"--as though a local Open qualifier and a Rotary Club scramble were no different.And his opinion isn't too far in the minority.
The calendar is full,fewer and fewer members care about competitive golf.All it takes is a small group of members to complain and any justification for hosting becomes even harder to make.
Things get even better when a PGAT pro acts like an asshole because his practice round was behind a 4-some of women.Sometimes the players bring these attitudes on themselves.
Securing sites will only get more difficult for USGA qualifiers.
And things will get harder yet for city,state,and regional events.
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Patrick,
While scolding all of those for mis-stating various things are you suggesting that it is beneath clubs to participate and do so in a manner that is "all in" versus "we'll give them a day and that's it, this is INSERT CLUB after all"?
Greg,
Getting a club to host and event, either multi-day or single day is beyond difficult.
If you attempt to dictate terms, you won't get the club's participation.
You outline your punchlist and try to get agreement as best you can.
You only see the "presentation" that Dan made and we don't know all the facts surrounding that presentation.
But, let me give you another example.
A club is hosting an event and has published that
Practice days will be on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday after 2:00.
Competitor calls and says, "gee, I can't make any of those dates since my wife is having surgery on Tuesday afternoon, is it OK if I play at 10:00 on Friday.
The hosting club's pro or manager says, "well, OK, under those circumstances, yes.
Then the competitor says, or in some cases, doesn't say, "my wife's father is in town for the surgery, can he play with me ?
Then, when he shows up, he also brings his wife's brother with him.
You don't know the extent of the circumstances surrounding the hosting of events and the practice rounds associated with them.
In my limited experience, most clubs try to accomodate practice rounds.
The publish, well in advance, the dates and times.
Sometimes, they're very flexible, stating that competitors should call the pro-shop, which will try to accomodate them.
But, the truth is, you can't accomodate everyone. You have to have order.
In fact, the structure of the event is largely responsible for the club approving it in the first place.
You can't have chaos, or that will be the last event the club hosts for a decade or so.
You and others don't understand the extent of the issues, internal and external, you just see the "entitlement" issue, while ignoring all the others.
Like the tip of the iceberg, there's alot more beneath the surface, and that's what most don't know or understand.
Hope that helps.
I would have suspected you looked at it as almost a duty of a fine club to foster competitive golf in such a manner.
Forget my perspective.
You have to look at the clubs perspective.
Many members don't want to host an outside event, so when a club does, you have to have structure, such that the members and competitors understand the ground rules.
Clubs aren't monolithic thinkers, there's devisiveness within every membership.
There are war camps to be dealt with.
You, and I say that respectively, You and others have no idea as to the IN-fighting that goes on within the club and the Board regarding the hosting of outside events.
And now you want exceptions that may jeopardize the hosting of future events to rule the day.
It doesn't work that way.
Trust me, I have extensive experience in this area.
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I would have suspected you looked at it as almost a duty of a fine club to foster competitive golf in such a manner.
Not just fine clubs,but any club whose members take the game seriously.
But,it's not that simple anymore.Every club struggles with these things.The GM at my club refers to them as "free outings"--as though a local Open qualifier and a Rotary Club scramble were no different.And his opinion isn't too far in the minority. I'm in that minority category, I suppose.The calendar is full,fewer and fewer members care about competitive golf.All it takes is a small group of members to complain and any justification for hosting becomes even harder to make.
Things get even better when a PGAT pro acts like an asshole because his practice round was behind a 4-some of women.Sometimes the players bring these attitudes on themselves. Been there, seen that. However, in my experience I have noticed only a small minority of the players that act this way. It is a shame that the other players individually and the Tour as an organization can't make them shape up.
Securing sites will only get more difficult for USGA qualifiers.
And things will get harder yet for city,state,and regional events.
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Patrick,
With all due respect you type the words "you don't know" far too frequently when addressing a person you don't know.
I asked for your opinion, not a condescnding disseration on the inner workings of a club.
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Patrick,
While scolding all of those for mis-stating various things are you suggesting that it is beneath clubs to participate and do so in a manner that is "all in" versus "we'll give them a day and that's it, this is INSERT CLUB after all"?
Greg,
Getting a club to host and event, either multi-day or single day is beyond difficult.
If you attempt to dictate terms, you won't get the club's participation.
You outline your punchlist and try to get agreement as best you can.
You only see the "presentation" that Dan made and we don't know all the facts surrounding that presentation.
But, let me give you another example.
A club is hosting an event and has published that
Practice days will be on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday after 2:00.
Competitor calls and says, "gee, I can't make any of those dates since my wife is having surgery on Tuesday afternoon, is it OK if I play at 10:00 on Friday.
The hosting club's pro or manager says, "well, OK, under those circumstances, yes.
Then the competitor says, or in some cases, doesn't say, "my wife's father is in town for the surgery, can he play with me ?
Then, when he shows up, he also brings his wife's brother with him.
You don't know the extent of the circumstances surrounding the hosting of events and the practice rounds associated with them.
In my limited experience, most clubs try to accomodate practice rounds.
The publish, well in advance, the dates and times.
Sometimes, they're very flexible, stating that competitors should call the pro-shop, which will try to accomodate them.
But, the truth is, you can't accomodate everyone. You have to have order.
In fact, the structure of the event is largely responsible for the club approving it in the first place.
You can't have chaos, or that will be the last event the club hosts for a decade or so.
You and others don't understand the extent of the issues, internal and external, you just see the "entitlement" issue, while ignoring all the others.
Like the tip of the iceberg, there's alot more beneath the surface, and that's what most don't know or understand.
Hope that helps.
I would have suspected you looked at it as almost a duty of a fine club to foster competitive golf in such a manner.
Forget my perspective.
You have to look at the clubs perspective.
Many members don't want to host an outside event, so when a club does, you have to have structure, such that the members and competitors understand the ground rules.
Clubs aren't monolithic thinkers, there's devisiveness within every membership.
There are war camps to be dealt with.
You, and I say that respectively, You and others have no idea as to the IN-fighting that goes on within the club and the Board regarding the hosting of outside events. We all know that Boards "IN-fight" about most everything, so I believe we do know that there is IN-fighting on this issue.
And now you want exceptions that may jeopardize the hosting of future events to rule the day.
It doesn't work that way.
Trust me, I have extensive experience in this area.
Trust, but verify! ;D [size]
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Carl,it only takes one prick.
The PGAT and the USGA will each get involved when a player does something stupid.It's in their best interests to make sure the player apologizes to the club or Head Pro.
Of course,there's probably going to be another prick next year. ;D
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Carl,it only takes one prick.
The PGAT and the USGA will each get involved when a player does something stupid.It's in their best interests to make sure the player apologizes to the club or Head Pro.
Of course,there's probably going to be another prick next year. ;D No doubt!
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Patrick,
With all due respect you type the words "you don't know" far too frequently when addressing a person you don't know.
It's my "opinion" that you don't know.
So we can ascertain if I'm right or wrong with my opinion, have you served on the board of a club or clubs that hosted events ?
And, have you also served in the capacity as the liaison person between a golfing organization and clubs hosting events ?
If not, I stand by my opinion, "you don't know"
I asked for your opinion, not a condescnding disseration on the inner workings of a club.
The inner workings of a club are critical to the issue.
That you don't know or don't understand that proves my point.
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Patrick,
With all due respect you type the words "you don't know" far too frequently when addressing a person you don't know.
It's my "opinion" that you don't know.
So we can ascertain if I'm right or wrong with my opinion, have you served on the board of a club or clubs that hosted events ?
And, have you also served in the capacity as the liaison person between a golfing organization and clubs hosting events ?
If not, I stand by my opinion, "you don't know"
I asked for your opinion, not a condescnding disseration on the inner workings of a club.
The inner workings of a club are critical to the issue.
That you don't know or don't understand that proves my point.
Uncle!
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Carl,
I served on the board of a club for twenty years that hosted USGA events, MGA events, NJSGA events and NJPGA events.
I was largely responsible for getting the club to host those events, some as recently as 2012.
In addition, for about the same period of time I served as the NJ liason person on the USGA Mid-Amateur committee.
I think that just might qualify me to comment on this topic. ;D
Greg,
What's your experience in this area ?
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Anecdotally, I'm playing in the Taylormade event at Myopia that Dan referenced.
I was quite thrilled/surprised to see Myopia hosting.
Despite (or because of) the fact that I'm quite friendly with their incredible Head Professional, I never considered asking for a practice round.
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Carl,
I served on the board of a club for twenty years that hosted USGA events, MGA events, NJSGA events and NJPGA events.
I was largely responsible for getting the club to host those events, some as recently as 2012.
In addition, for about the same period of time I served as the NJ liason person on the USGA Mid-Amateur committee.
I think that just might qualify me to comment on this topic. ;D
Greg,
What's your experience in this area ?
Patrick,
We have all dealt with boards full of over inflated egos, third generation entitlement and petty self interests. A golf club board is no different than another. I don't see anyone arguing that it is difficult politics, perhpas as petty as it comes but still difficult.
My initial comment was meant to express surprise that you were falling on then side you are and ask if I was reading you correctly. Your responses have failed to address that whatsoever.
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Pat,
With all the scheduling difficulties that you have enunciated, how does a club like Garden City find a way to open up to the competitors for a week before the Travis?
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As a board member of a club who has hosted USGA Amateur and Local qualifying,I am speaking from some experience as well here.
A few things
1) Clubs were paid by USGA to host these events, however, the amount per round is a fraction of our guest greens fees.
2) Qualifiers from state ams were generally not paid for; (This is also why it is rare for a private course to host one of these)
3) Part of the agreement is that practice rounds need to be made available; however, it is up to the club to
4) Clubs are allowed to enforce their own dress codes, norms, etc. (e.g. no metal spikes, no push carts)
5) These is tremendous pressure for members of state golf association boards to get their own clubs to host these types of events. In fact, you could argue this is a key part of their application process.
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With all the scheduling difficulties that you have enunciated, how does a club like Garden City find a way to open up to the competitors for a week before the Travis?
Keith,
For several reasons.
# 1. It's the "club's" event, not an outside event
# 2. It's a fixed event, played at the same time every year, prior to Memorial Day.
# 3. There is no third party association that dictates a schedule, format or eligibility.
# 4. The membership strongly supports the event, thus deviseness that exists at other clubs isn't a factor.
# 5. The membership funds the event, thus the event isn't reliant on third party associations or the competitors for funding.
Hope that helps
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Thanks Pat.
The more I think about it, the more I think that the 4th reason is the only one that matters, maybe the first and fourth together.
I think that we are talking about events that happened before Memorial Day, and as you said, many are set years in advance. I would think that if the club wants to allow wide leeway in practice rounds, they could.
The argument has been that the visitor can not displace the members, and can not have run of the show sort of speak. But at Garden CIty, they can, and the reason they can, is that members are proud of the tournament and are willing to put up with some visitor play for that week. If the members at all the hosting tournaments felt the same way about their event, I suspect it would be easier to shcedule practice rounds.
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Carl,
I served on the board of a club for twenty years that hosted USGA events, MGA events, NJSGA events and NJPGA events.
I was largely responsible for getting the club to host those events, some as recently as 2012.
In addition, for about the same period of time I served as the NJ liason person on the USGA Mid-Amateur committee.
I think that just might qualify me to comment on this topic. ;D
Greg,
What's your experience in this area ?
Patrick,
We have all dealt with boards full of over inflated egos, third generation entitlement and petty self interests.
Greg,
That's an interesting characterization of the individuals who serve on boards, who do the work of the club with no compensation.
Have you ever served on a board ?
Most fellows serving on boards donate their time, are usually hard working successful people, like doctors, lawyers, dentists, merchants and business people.
I haven't encountered any board members who were "third generation entitlement"
Could you list the clubs where "third generation entitlement's" sit on the board ?
As to inflated egos, at one time or another, we're all probably guilty of that.
As to "petty" self interests, I think you have to differentiate self interests, or the interests of that faction of the membership the board member is representing, from "petty" self interest. I've seen plenty of the former, but not that much of the latter.
One of the things I prided myself on, was that my votes weren't self serving, that they were for what I considered the best interest of the club.
I often found myself in passionate debates with my friends and foes alike, my fellow board members who had their views, some of which were objective and some of which I felt were self serving. That's why you have boards, so that the issues can be fleshed out and hopefully resolved for the best interest of the club.
From the sound of your description of the composition of boards, it doesn't seem like you've actually served on the board of a club.
There are some very fine people who give their time and effort to the club.
My view is that a board member should have three qualifiers.
# 1. They should have a passion for the entity.
# 2. They should have the time required to serve.
# 3. They should have the intelligence and common sense necessary to perform their function.
Unlike the song, "Two out of three" is bad.
You have to have all three to be an outstanding board member.
A golf club board is no different than another. I don't see anyone arguing that it is difficult politics, perhpas as petty as it comes but still difficult.
It is difficult.
It's not easy trying to please, members, their families, staff, guests, vendors, etc., etc..
My initial comment was meant to express surprise that you were falling on then side you are and ask if I was reading you correctly.
Your responses have failed to address that whatsoever.
Greg, I'm afraid I don't understand the above paragraph, especially the first sentence.
I was trying to express that it's very difficult to impossible to please everyone, especially outliers.
Having been intricately involved in this issue, on all sides, and knowing the problems that arise when a member or members get bent out of shape because someone who tried to accomodate an outsider had it backfire on them, resulting in the negative reaction that the club shouldn't host outside events, thus ruining it for everyone.
I advocated for outside events, tournaments and qualifiers at the clubs I was a member of.
I've been active in that task for close to 50 years.
But, I see the problems created when those who can't abide by the structure of the event, seek exceptions.
I can cite incident after incident, where the club or an employee or member of the club went out of their way to accomodate an outlier, only to have it backfire on them and ruin the chances for hosting future events.
Experience, your own and the experience of others, is a great teacher.
If you don't learn by it, you won't be hosting another event any time soon.
Hope that helps
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Thanks Pat.
The more I think about it, the more I think that the 4th reason is the only one that matters, maybe the first and fourth together.
Keith,
There are other reasons I didn't cite.
For example, GCGC is a most unusual club.
We don't have the diverse factions that you typically have at other clubs.
As a Men's club, there's a heightened sense of comraderie, of tradition and of sacrificing and giving back to the game.
We don't worry about how the wallpaper looks or the shade and fabric of the upholstery in the sitting area.
I think that we are talking about events that happened before Memorial Day, and as you said, many are set years in advance. I would think that if the club wants to allow wide leeway in practice rounds, they could.
Keith, you can't provide "wide leeway", that's the formula for disaster.
You can provide "reasonable" leeway, the problem is, you'd be surprised how many unreasonable requests are made.
And, you can't disrupt your membership, some of whom are dead set against hosting outside events and will look for any excuse to criticize the club's decision to host an event.
The argument has been that the visitor can not displace the members, and can not have run of the show sort of speak.
That's a valid argument.
The members pay initiation fees and dues and minimums and they don't want to be inconvenienced.
But at Garden CIty, they can, and the reason they can, is that members are proud of the tournament and are willing to put up with some visitor play for that week.
While that tends to be the Macro or global culture of the club, you do have a faction that feels otherwise.
But, overall, the club, the great majority of the club, embrace golf and the hosting of the Travis.
But, GCGC is not your typical club.
If the members at all the hosting tournaments felt the same way about their event, I suspect it would be easier to shcedule practice rounds.
But other clubs don't feel the same way.
They're not connected by the same bond.
And they have a more diverse membership, more war camps to contend with.
The culture at GCGC is unique, and certainly not easily exported to other clubs.
If it was, it would have been done so half a century ago.
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As a board member of a club who has hosted USGA Amateur and Local qualifying,I am speaking from some experience as well here.
A few things
1) Clubs were paid by USGA to host these events, however, the amount per round is a fraction of our guest greens fees.
Mark, we hosted USGA events and USGA qualifiers and were never paid a fee to do so.
Reimbursement for meals, yes, but, not a fee for securing the site.
2) Qualifiers from state ams were generally not paid for; (This is also why it is rare for a private course to host one of these)
It's far from rare in the MET area.
Private clubs are very generous in donating their course for events and qualifiers.
3) Part of the agreement is that practice rounds need to be made available; however, it is up to the club to
Agreed, and in the great majority of cases, practice rounds are reasonably accomodated.
4) Clubs are allowed to enforce their own dress codes, norms, etc. (e.g. no metal spikes, no push carts)
That's a reasonable expectation, especially since members are in attendance during or after the competition.
5) These is tremendous pressure for members of state golf association boards to get their own clubs to host these types of events.
In fact, you could argue this is a key part of their application process.
I'd agree. But, there are also a good number of pro-active golfers who don't serve on association boards who try to convince their club volunteer to donate the course for an event
or a qualifier.
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Right on the money. If you are going to host you need to go all in instead of just putting your big toe in the water.
I don`t understand the clubs that host and then make every part of the experience a pain in the ass for the contestants.
Can you name five (5) clubs that did this ?
If you can`t have a bit of flexibility based on someone not being able to get there on the set aside day than don`t host.
Are you out of your mind ?
So now the hosting club has to agree to be subject to the schedules of 150 contestants prior to committing to be the host ?
Evidently, you've never been involved with arranging substantive tournaments or qualifiers at a club.
People do in fact have legit reasons for not being able to get there on a specific day.
So what ?
The association typically defines the schedule of events, including practice rounds when you sign your application to enter, AND you agree to abide by the terms of the event when you affix your signature to the application.
If you have a legit reason for not being able to get there on the specific day or days, that's the contestants problem, not the hosting club's or the association's problem.
Again if they only want to host for the cache of putting it on their website or pitch to prospective members then they are missing the point.
Tim,
I'm afraid you're out of touch on this issue.
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Patrick,
I was surprised that I seemed to find you on the side of "these organizations/events should just be grateful they got any acces to XYZ club".
I would have expected you to fall on the side of "I believe a club should not only get involved in such events but strive to make them a great experience for the players... do everything they can or not host the event at all". Of course you can now provide a few paragraphs expounding on "do everything they can". That is not to say I agree that players should be given carte blanche in terms of access, just surprised you seemed to be on the other side of the fence so to speak. Why? Not sure, just the sense I got from reading a variety of your contributions here.
As for boards, for every board made up of individuals as you describe I would suggest there are at least as many made up of people driven solely by self interest, ego or both with not a whole lot more contributed.
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Patrick,
I was surprised that I seemed to find you on the side of "these organizations/events should just be grateful they got any acces to XYZ club".
I would have expected you to fall on the side of "I believe a club should not only get involved in such events but strive to make them a great experience for the players... do everything they can or not host the event at all".
The above sentence indicates a complete failure to know and understand the dynamics behind a club volunteering their course for an event.
Clubs don't have but a single thought, they're not monolithic in the views of the members.
There's discord, dissatisfaction and opposition to hosting events.
While many want to host an event, many are opposed to hosting an event.
Of course you can now provide a few paragraphs expounding on "do everything they can".
That is not to say I agree that players should be given carte blanche in terms of access, just surprised you seemed to be on the other side of the fence so to speak.
Like many things in life, including marriage, "COMPROMISE" is a critical element.
The club may have voted to offer their course as the venue for an event or qualifier, but, that vote may have been with conditions.
Remember, the "Association" dictates the dates, when they approach the club.
The club may want to host the event, but, it may conflict with club events already scheduled, hence, compromises need to get worked out.
And, one of the compromises might be to restrict practice rounds to certain, fixed dates so as to avoid conflicts with club events.
The ladies might have interclub matches the week of the practice rounds.
Or, there might be a Junior competition.
There are dozens of golf and non-golf events that can cause conflicts.
As a Board member you try to resolve those conflicts.
But, giving every competitor carte blanche, unlimited or unrestricted practice rounds, ain't gonna happen, unless you're living in a fantasy world.
I've asked you a number of times, have you ever sat on a golf club/course board and have you ever been involved in securing a tournament.
Would you please answer those questions.
Why? Not sure, just the sense I got from reading a variety of your contributions here.
Unlike some, you have to look at both or all of the sides of this issue, you can't just look at it from one perspective, which is what many are doing.
As for boards, for every board made up of individuals as you describe I would suggest there are at least as many made up of people driven solely by self interest, ego or both with not a whole lot more contributed.
Can you cite me some specific examples or is this just your general perspective when it comes to boards ?
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Experience with boards - yes.
There is no need to list the variety of challenges that even a well intentioned club/board can/will encounter in such instances I am reasonably certain most here understand those issues... particularly egtting in the way of a ladies interclub match! (sorry, just a little levity).
Again, I had you pegged as the "all in or let's not even bother" kind of guy. That's all, and I really do not require a "real world" lecture, regardless of your vast experience in this and other matters.
You could throw me a bone and offer.. "In a perfect world I would agree..."
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Right on the money. If you are going to host you need to go all in instead of just putting your big toe in the water.
I don`t understand the clubs that host and then make every part of the experience a pain in the ass for the contestants.
Can you name five (5) clubs that did this ?
If you can`t have a bit of flexibility based on someone not being able to get there on the set aside day than don`t host.
Are you out of your mind ?
So now the hosting club has to agree to be subject to the schedules of 150 contestants prior to committing to be the host ?
Evidently, you've never been involved with arranging substantive tournaments or qualifiers at a club.
People do in fact have legit reasons for not being able to get there on a specific day.
So what ?
The association typically defines the schedule of events, including practice rounds when you sign your application to enter, AND you agree to abide by the terms of the event when you affix your signature to the application.
If you have a legit reason for not being able to get there on the specific day or days, that's the contestants problem, not the hosting club's or the association's problem.
Again if they only want to host for the cache of putting it on their website or pitch to prospective members then they are missing the point.
Tim,
I'm afraid you're out of touch on this issue.
Pat-I am not about to enter into the fray in this matter and be bullied and talked down to. It`s not necessary to list your associations with club boards,committees,state and local golf associations etc. to make your point. You have already made these associations well known on many other threads using them as arrows in your quiver to run roughshod over those you disagree with. As far as what the percentage of doctors,lawyers,dentists and merchants that serve on boards it is really of very little consequence to me although it seems to hold some cache for you. I guess a dentist is more qualified than a teacher or government worker to decide whether or not a qualifier will be held at a certain club. My only point was that clubs could have a modicum of flexibility when deciding on those requests with special circumstances attached. Hey I`m waiving the white flag as it`s clear that with you this is a zero sum game. Congrats!
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Pat-I am not about to enter into the fray in this matter and be bullied and talked down to. It`s not necessary to list your associations with club boards,committees,state and local golf associations etc. to make your point. You have already made these associations well known on many other threads using them as arrows in your quiver to run roughshod over those you disagree with.
Tim, some, and you may be one of them, decried the inability of a competitor to access a practice round other than the ones offered to the field of competitors, almost demanding that it was the club's obligation to accomodate everyone.
Many made their comments absent an iota of real world experience.
I made my comments based upon 50 years of intimate experience in this area.
If reality versus theory causes you to feel bullied or talked down to, well, that's a byproduct of someone without firsthand knowledge telling someone with firsthand knowledge, how things are done in the real world, when nothing could be further from the truth.
To sit back and listen to the whining and complaining of those who have never been involved with these issues is.......tiresome.
No need for me to beat around the bush.
I'm just telling it like it is.
As far as what the percentage of doctors,lawyers, dentists and merchants that serve on boards it is really of very little consequence to me although it seems to hold some cache for you. I guess a dentist is more qualified than a teacher or government worker to decide whether or not a qualifier will be held at a certain club.
In the Metropolitan New York area, with the cost associated with belonging to a private clubs, I haven't encountered too many teachers or government workers serving on the boards. Have you ?
My only point was that clubs could have a modicum of flexibility when deciding on those requests with special circumstances attached.
In this particular case, the club offered alternative practice round dates, but the competitor couldn't make them.
To what length does a club have to go to satisfy the whims of every competitor ?
Are you aware of the club's calendar of events ? Of the possible conflicts with other dates, be it outings or special events, along with member play ?
Don't be so quick to blame the club.
The competitor knew, when he signed up for the tournament, what the practice round days were, and knowing he couldn't make those dates, he still signed up.
Last year, or the year before, a fellow at a nearby golf club signed up for the club championship.
He reached the finals.
Then, he announced that he had a wedding to attend, as best man, and wanted the club and his finalist competitor to reschedule to suit his needs.
He knew the date of the finals. He knew the date of the wedding, but he still signed up, knowing there was a conflict should he reach the finals.
Fortunately, the club told him to take a flying hike and make a choice, the finals or the wedding.
He chose the wedding.
I've also been a tournament Chairman and you can't believe the excuses people will make to try to convince you to alter a competitive schedule or their designated rounds. They do this in spite of knowing what the structure was when they signed up. But, they want it their way, to the exclusion of consideration for everyone else.
This happens all to often and is indicative of the "me" or "entitlement" generation.
Hey I`m waiving the white flag as it`s clear that with you this is a zero sum game. Congrats!
Not at all.
It's a matter of someone with NO experience trying to convince someone with extensive experience on how things should be run, and the person with extensive experience telling the person with NO experience that they don't know what they're talking about.
There's no other way to sugar coat it.
It's like a passenger, with no flight training or flight experience trying to tell a seasoned pilot how to fly and land the aircraft.
You consider it bullying and being talking down to.
I consider it common sense..
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Pat-I am not about to enter into the fray in this matter and be bullied and talked down to. It`s not necessary to list your associations with club boards,committees,state and local golf associations etc. to make your point. You have already made these associations well known on many other threads using them as arrows in your quiver to run roughshod over those you disagree with.
Tim, some, and you may be one of them, decried the inability of a competitor to access a practice round other than the ones offered to the field of competitors, almost demanding that it was the club's obligation to accomodate everyone.
Many made their comments absent an iota of real world experience.
I made my comments based upon 50 years of intimate experience in this area.
If reality versus theory causes you to feel bullied or talked down to, well, that's a byproduct of someone without firsthand knowledge telling someone with firsthand knowledge, how things are done in the real world, when nothing could be further from the truth.
To sit back and listen to the whining and complaining of those who have never been involved with these issues is.......tiresome.
No need for me to beat around the bush.
I'm just telling it like it is.
As far as what the percentage of doctors,lawyers, dentists and merchants that serve on boards it is really of very little consequence to me although it seems to hold some cache for you. I guess a dentist is more qualified than a teacher or government worker to decide whether or not a qualifier will be held at a certain club.
In the Metropolitan New York area, with the cost associated with belonging to a private clubs, I haven't encountered too many teachers or government workers serving on the boards. Have you ?
My only point was that clubs could have a modicum of flexibility when deciding on those requests with special circumstances attached.
In this particular case, the club offered alternative practice round dates, but the competitor couldn't make them.
To what length does a club have to go to satisfy the whims of every competitor ?
Are you aware of the club's calendar of events ? Of the possible conflicts with other dates, be it outings or special events, along with member play ?
Don't be so quick to blame the club.
The competitor knew, when he signed up for the tournament, what the practice round days were, and knowing he couldn't make those dates, he still signed up.
Last year, or the year before, a fellow at a nearby golf club signed up for the club championship.
He reached the finals.
Then, he announced that he had a wedding to attend, as best man, and wanted the club and his finalist competitor to reschedule to suit his needs.
He knew the date of the finals. He knew the date of the wedding, but he still signed up, knowing there was a conflict should he reach the finals.
Fortunately, the club told him to take a flying hike and make a choice, the finals or the wedding.
He chose the wedding.
I've also been a tournament Chairman and you can't believe the excuses people will make to try to convince you to alter a competitive schedule or their designated rounds. They do this in spite of knowing what the structure was when they signed up. But, they want it their way, to the exclusion of consideration for everyone else.
This happens all to often and is indicative of the "me" or "entitlement" generation.
Hey I`m waiving the white flag as it`s clear that with you this is a zero sum game. Congrats!
Not at all.
It's a matter of someone with NO experience trying to convince someone with extensive experience on how things should be run, and the person with extensive experience telling the person with NO experience that they don't know what they're talking about.
There's no other way to sugar coat it.
It's like a passenger, with no flight training or flight experience trying to tell a seasoned pilot how to fly and land the aircraft.
You consider it bullying and being talking down to.
I consider it common sense..
Because I don`t hang my resume out there like a banner I`m wondering how you know what type of experience I have. The only thing that you having 50 years worth of experience tells me is that your old.;D
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Because I don`t hang my resume out there like a banner I`m wondering how you know what type of experience I have.
The only thing that you having 50 years worth of experience tells me is that your old.;D
You don't need to hang your resume out there like a banner, your typed words have done that for you.
Deductive reasoning remains viable, even to this "old" mind.
Growing old is mandatory.
Growing up is ..........optional.
And, as Groucho Marks stated, "You're only as old as the women you feel"
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Pretty sad and elitist to remark that a government worker,policeman,fireman,teacher wouldn`t be able to belong to a private club.Wow :o
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The assistant pro at my club is a pretty good player. Wins just about all the sectional events, has a top 2 in the National Assistants Championships, playing in the club pro, section Open qualifier winner, several mini tour wins. He is in mid 30's and working hard to get to the next level. So top level events are a big deal to him.
Recently our sections US Open Qualifier was hosted at a McGregor Links. The course conditions were awful from a maintenance point of view, they weren't to open to practice rounds either. While I realize they are a private club but why host the event if you don't do it right. It is important to these folks and a reflection of the club.
Qualifiers are usually scheduled years in advance, therefore it's difficult to predict Mother Nature's influence on the date of the qualifier.
Today he tells me that the host of the Massachusetts Open said the couldn't accomadate a practice round on a Sunday afternoon for him. Now the club did give some availability a few weeks earlier but he had another event and couldn't make it. Really? The club is that busy on a Sunday evening? Seems strange.
You're kidding right ?
Saturdays and Sundays are the two busiest days at private clubs and you want the membership to defer to a non-member ? ? ?
Let me see if I understand this correctly. The club in question provided him with alternative dates, but, HIS schedule couldn't accomodate those dates ? ? ?
This is a problem that transcends golf, the "entitlement" mentality.
When clubs host events and qualifiers, they typically publish the practice round dates.
If a golfer can't make them you want the club to ignore their member needs and cater to a non-member by accomodating HIS particular needs.
Now, EXPAND that to the entire field. Try accomodating 150 or so golfers to the exclusion of satisfying the club's membership.
He shakes it off like the professional he is but I was surprised.
Then you have NO concept of logistics and practicality.
You should be happy that the club has elected to host the Mass Open instead of complaining that the club won't accomodate your friend's needs because they conflict with the club's practice round dates.
When events like this have been played at clubs where I have been a member it was never an issue. I would host any of these folks myself but I wouldn't tolerate my club treating folks like this. I would be embarrassed.
Then, once again, you don't understand the problem and logistics associated with running a tournament with 150 or so competitors.
No one knows the formula for success, but surely the formula for failure is to try to please everyone.
He was invited to a Taylor Made event at Myopia Hunt and he asked to just look at the course let alone play it. No, was the answer. This event is a regional tournament for Tayor Made staffers and a national qualifier. I understand Myopia is a high end place but surely they could accommodate him?
WHY ?
They're hosting the event aren't they ?
Are you sure that NO ONE is entitled to a practice round ?
So for these two events he has to play with no practice round.
Then, he's on an equal footing with every other competitor, NO ?
I was really disappointed to hear this. Am I just imagining that it shouldn't be like this?
Again, let me see if I understand this correctly.
For the first event, the club has offered practice round dates, but, your friend can't make them because he has elected to play in another competition. And, you want the club to ignore or put aside member play on Sunday afternoon, which is usually a heavy play couples time, to accomodate your non-member friend ? ?? ?
Is that correct ?
And you don't understand that ? ? ?
When dealing with 150 so competitors you have to establish guidelines/rules in an effort to try to accomodate everyone, the competitors, officials and club members. You do so by establishing fixed practice round dates and times. If a competitor can't make them due to choice, or scheduling conflicts, he usually can find a member to host him. But, whining that it's not fair is absurd. Asking the club to make a special exception is absurd, especially when multiplied by 150 special exceptions.
You should try running a tournament to see all of the problems that arise, then, maybe, you'll have a better appreciation for how difficult it is to try to please everyone.
As I mentioned in the threads I was involved in running several New York State Amatuer Championships at the clubs I was a member of and served on the board in various roles including President. Also hosted USGA Qualifiers. Hosted Invitiationals and other events. Been on several club boards and practically ran one as a volunteer general manager. So my experience not exactly trivial in the club business. I guess since I set the tone at the club our handling of things was what I viewed a right. Since the club offered to host the event we then did the best we could. I am sure not everyone was happy but most feedback was overwhelmingly positive. Certainly not all members were supportive of the events.
To be perfectly clear the assitant in question had absolutely no issues with it other than disapointment. I posted this looking for opinions as everyone has different view points on things but the condensending nature of your response is a bit much.
Dan
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Pretty sad and elitist to remark that a government worker,policeman,fireman,teacher wouldn`t be able to belong to a private club.Wow :o
It's not elitist, it's a reality in the New York City area.
Private clubs are very expensive, especially with so many clubs insisting upon minimum food charges in addition to dues and assessments
Having disposable income for golf of $ 15,000 to $ 25,000 or more isn't something you associate with a good number of people, including government workers, policemen, firemen, and teachers. It's a further indication of how unfamiliar you are with the workings of private clubs, financially, politically and administratively.
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There's a CDGA better ball event at a local private club next Monday, and the club agreed to accommodate participants for a practice round for $75 + a cart fee (the members at this club have hosted the Illinois Open at least twice in the last three or four years, so they are more than generous in allowing outsiders to play their course). Since my partner has never played the course, I called the pro to see what kind of schedule was available. He could not have been more helpful. Although Friday afternoons are usually busy at his club, by the early evening the course has generally cleared out, and he said we could tee off Friday afternoon at 4. Country club golf at a beautiful private club, a great price, plenty of time to finish the round and have a nice dinner. My only hope is that the pro's still around when we finish so that we can invite him and/or his staff to join us for a cold one at some local establishment that serves ne'er do wells such as my playing partner and myself.
When I play in these Chicago District events, I always make certain to send a note to the head pro thanking his club for allowing us to play an event at their club. I really don't have any interest in joining a club and playing all of (or even the vast majority of) my golf at one place. But I definitely appreciate the clubs in our District that allow me the privilege of playing at their facilities.
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Pat-Thanks for the socio economic lesson. Sometimes civil servants have spouses that also work and one or both have been known to take on second jobs to get ahead. Although I know you may find it hard to believe but they have on occasion been known to make prudent investments and even prosper in the financial markets. I`m sure the thought of these types of happenings has you reeling in horror but their might even be a government employee down the street from you that can actually send their kids to college and god forbid join the very club at which you sit on every board and committee. Get over yourself. ::)
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Pat-Thanks for the socio economic lesson. Sometimes civil servants have spouses that also work and one or both have been known to take on second jobs to get ahead.
Now that you're going to add a spouse to the mix, let's add in the lottery winnings and inheritance.
Although I know you may find it hard to believe but they have on occasion been known to make prudent investments and even prosper in the financial markets.
Tim, are you more likely to find a doctor, lawyer, dentist or business man on the board of a private club or a government employee or teacher ?
What would you say the ratio is at private clubs ? 1-1, 1-10, 1-100 or 1-1,000 ?
I`m sure the thought of these types of happenings has you reeling in horror but their might even be a government employee down the street from you that can actually send their kids to college and god forbid join the very club at which you sit on every board and committee.
The non-refundable, non-bond inititiation fee at Boca Rio was $ 200,000 or $ 225,000.
Dues in excess of $ 25,000 before setting foot in the door.
What do you think ?
Get over yourself. ::)
I will when you try to grasp and get a grip on reality.
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In the Metropolitan New York area, with the cost associated with belonging to a private clubs, I haven't encountered too many teachers or government workers serving on the boards. Have you ?
The non-refundable, non-bond inititiation fee at Boca Rio was $ 200,000 or $ 225,000.
Dues in excess of $ 25,000 before setting foot in the door.
What do you think ?
Where in the New York Metropolitan area is Boca Rio located, exactly?
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David Elvins,
Why would you disingenuously take two separate quotes from two separate posts and try to pass them off as coming from the same reply from me ? One quote came from reply # 60 and the other from reply # 67, yet you posted them as coming from the same reply, made at 9:47:05, which effectively misrepresents each response by amongst other things, taking them out of context and making them appear to be from the same reply, when they were from two distinctly different replies.
Intellectual honesty should be the basis of all replies, to the exclusion of attempts to misquote and/or misrepresent previous replies
Why would you attempt to misrepresent the context in which each separate post was made ?
To answer your question Tim referenced clubs where I sat on Boards and committees, NOT New York clubs.
Although, Boca Rio was known and referred to as Glen Oaks South, a Long Island Club.
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Sorry Pat, it was a simple typo, I copied and pasted the wrong header whilst trying to put two quotes in the one post. There was no grand conspiracy to misrepresent you and it's been corrected.
I agree with most of what you have written in this thread, by the way. It all seems like common sense and I am not sure how this thread has got to 3 pages. But at the same time, green ink makes me compelled to argue over trivialities, as I am sure it does for many other on this board.
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Much ado about nothing ...
Each club agrees/volunteers to host a qualifier or tournament.
In the case of USGA events, on the application it is stated when practice rounds are to be made available or at the least, info to contact the host club.
I would think that an experienced tournament golfer would contact the club prior to submitting his application to see if practice rounds would be available the date and time he is available, if not, select another site.
In a related tidbit about qualifiers, I know of one NorCal private club that does not allow spectators during a qualifier.
https://champs.usga.org/show_qualify_sectional.asp?id=13 (https://champs.usga.org/show_qualify_sectional.asp?id=13)
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Sorry Pat, it was a simple typo, I copied and pasted the wrong header whilst trying to put two quotes in the one post. There was no grand conspiracy to misrepresent you and it's been corrected.
I agree with most of what you have written in this thread, by the way. It all seems like common sense and I am not sure how this thread has got to 3 pages. But at the same time, green ink makes me compelled to argue over trivialities, as I am sure it does for many other on this board.
Why do you think I post in green ink ? ;D ;D ;D
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What next...."I cannot play on the tournament day, can I compete the day before"?
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What next...."I cannot play on the tournament day, can I compete the day before"?
Not to thread jack, but that is a question heard at Private clubs across the country all the time. It really becomes a problem when they say yes, because in my experience their motivations are not always altruistic.
My favorite was when one club I worked at moved the junior club championship because one kid had driver's ed, not a coincedence his father was a board member. The other parents found out and all hell broke lose, we ended up playing it with both dates. Thank goodness there was no playoff!
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As I mentioned in the threads I was involved in running several New York State Amatuer Championships at the clubs I was a member of and served on the board in various roles including President. Also hosted USGA Qualifiers. Hosted Invitiationals and other events. Been on several club boards and practically ran one as a volunteer general manager. So my experience not exactly trivial in the club business. I guess since I set the tone at the club our handling of things was what I viewed a right. Since the club offered to host the event we then did the best we could.
Dan,
Does that mean that you provided unlimited, unrestricted access for practice rounds ?
I'm sure your club established and published practice round dates, like most clubs.
But, you indicated that you accomodated those who couldn't match their schedules with the club's schedule.
So, whom at your club had the authority to waive the the published restrictions and allow play at their whim ?
I am sure not everyone was happy but most feedback was overwhelmingly positive.
First you tell us that "not everyone" was "happy", then you tell us that the feedback was "overwhelmingly positive"
How can that be ? The membership couldn't be unhappy on one hand and overwhelmingly positive on the other.
Then you tell us that not all members were supportive of the events, ergo, more unhappiness.
Certainly not all members were supportive of the events.
To be perfectly clear the assitant in question had absolutely no issues with it other than disapointment.
I understand the disappointment, I've also been denied practice rounds, either because the club didn't permit any or because I had a scheduling conflict. But, whining that some great offense has been committed by these clubs doesn't hold any weight with me.
I posted this looking for opinions as everyone has different view points on things but the condensending nature of your response is a bit much.
I offered you my opinion.
I thought you were wrong and I thought you were whining.
Mark Chaplin said it best, from my perspective.
Where does the sense of entitlement stop ?
Lastly, if he wasn't your friend, would you really give a crap ?
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The clubs and events I am in the loop on provided as many practice rounds as possible with guidelines set in advance. They varied with event and who for USGA, State AM etc. This from the get go sounded funny and idd not make real sense to me.
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The clubs and events I am in the loop on provided as many practice rounds as possible with guidelines set in advance. They varied with event and who for USGA, State AM etc. This from the get go sounded funny and idd not make real sense to me.
Tiger,
In the NY Met area the problem seems to exaccerbate itself due to the number of Golf Associations.
For example, you could have the Bergen County Open, a NJSGA and or a NJPGA event, an MGA event and USGA events all centered on courrses in Bergen County.
In all cases, those associations look to obtain suitable venues.
Cyclically, some courses seem to make themselves available an inordinate number of times.
As a club repeatedly offers the course as the site for different events, factions within the membership start to resist and resent the club's use by non-members.
The larger the association, the more likely that an event is scheduled well in advance.
ie, the 2017 Women's Open is coming to Trump Bedminster.
Clubs usually accept events well in advance of the upcoming year's calendar, though they may be cognizant of the basic timing of club events.
ie, Club Championship after Labor Day, Member-Guests in Mid-June-July & August.
And, clubs have men's events, women's events, mixed events, junior events and Senior events, along with specialty events, such as on Memorial Day, July 4th and Labor Day.
What about the overseeding cycle, the aerification cycle, the topdressing cycle, the verticutting cycle when the course isn't in pristine shape.
So, the calendar starts getting crowded.
Add to that the desire for non-tournament daily member play.
At many clubs, the members complain that there are too many "CLUB" events, so when outside events are scheduled the complaint meter usually rises.
Now, add to the calendar, practice days you want to offer for the tournament/qualifier you're hosting.
When should they be granted ? The week before, two weeks before, two days before.
What's a reasonable number of days to offer practice rounds ?
What are reasonable times ?
So, let's suppose a tournament is being held on August 14th, 15th and 16th of 2012.
150 competitors.
In light of the end of July and the begining of August, what would be a reasonable practice round schedule that would satisfy most prudent members and competitors ?
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Pat all that is true and can occur. However, a club pro with any experience should know 99% of what you said and plan aka set parameters with the organization accordingly. I know around here once the parameters are set, no member can change them. The deal is done and ones word is given. Pat, anywhere from 1 to 3 are the numbers that stick on my head. Generally it is the week of the event or the two weeks before the event. Usually the course is just open to practice rounds over a set period. You know a week of every other tee time is left open etc. I frankly have never heard of anyone not being allowed access if they are gentlemen and ask for the opportunity to play the course several weeks out if they happen to be in town. We do not have the numbers of events or organization numbers you have to push any sense of the word reasonable though. As they say these are two different worlds between jersey/nyc metro and the deep south.
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As I mentioned in the threads I was involved in running several New York State Amatuer Championships at the clubs I was a member of and served on the board in various roles including President. Also hosted USGA Qualifiers. Hosted Invitiationals and other events. Been on several club boards and practically ran one as a volunteer general manager. So my experience not exactly trivial in the club business. I guess since I set the tone at the club our handling of things was what I viewed a right. Since the club offered to host the event we then did the best we could.
Dan,
Does that mean that you provided unlimited, unrestricted access for practice rounds ?
I'm sure your club established and published practice round dates, like most clubs.
But, you indicated that you accomodated those who couldn't match their schedules with the club's schedule.
So, whom at your club had the authority to waive the the published restrictions and allow play at their whim ?
I am sure not everyone was happy but most feedback was overwhelmingly positive.
First you tell us that "not everyone" was "happy", then you tell us that the feedback was "overwhelmingly positive"
How can that be ? The membership couldn't be unhappy on one hand and overwhelmingly positive on the other.
Then you tell us that not all members were supportive of the events, ergo, more unhappiness.
Certainly not all members were supportive of the events.
To be perfectly clear the assitant in question had absolutely no issues with it other than disapointment.
I understand the disappointment, I've also been denied practice rounds, either because the club didn't permit any or because I had a scheduling conflict. But, whining that some great offense has been committed by these clubs doesn't hold any weight with me.
I posted this looking for opinions as everyone has different view points on things but the condensending nature of your response is a bit much.
I offered you my opinion.
I thought you were wrong and I thought you were whining.
Mark Chaplin said it best, from my perspective.
Where does the sense of entitlement stop ?
Lastly, if he wasn't your friend, would you really give a crap ?
Of course the club offered a practice round schedule but also tried our best to accommodate requests outside of that time if possible. Certainly weren't giving 8:20am on Saturday, but if it was Saturday afternoon and we had availability we accommodated or told them when we could accommodate them. Tournament committee and pro make those decisons under the premise that the club wanted to put its best effort into hosting a top notch event. Participants aren't just some group paying for the privlidge but treated as we would want others to treat us if we were visiting their club.
It virtually impossible to have an event at the club of this nature and not have someone unhappy. Certainly some members think if it inconvieniences them it must be bad, participants don't like the pins or playing partners, tee times etc, Overall the vast majority of the participants, tournament officials and members we very pleased with the event, the hospitality received and the hospitality given to our guests. The members felt like the club was a gracious host which most of the membership viewed as important. Treat others as you would want to be treated?
Once again the golfer who's schedule caused a conflict with practice round availability or such wasn't available wasn't the whining. He would have preferred being able to preview the course but didn't whine a bit about it. He just relayed the situation when I asked. If there is whine it falls on me, I wasn't trying to whine just looking to see how my experiences compared to others.
I said I appreciated your opinion and those of others. I asked the question because in my experience I have seen things done differently. I realize that different clubs and people handle things differently. However instead of stating that, your reponse was very condescending which I didn't see as necessary. However a condensending attitude seems to tie in to your views on the subject and that is why we see things so differently. Treat others as you want to be treated is what I do.
Is see no entitlement in this entire discussion but obviously you do. I don't have an issue with your view on that. I expect that we just look at life differently. That is ok and what makes the world go round.
He really isn't a friend, he is a pro at one of my clubs. As a club member I wish to see him to well regardless of whether I like him or consider him a friend. He represents my club well and as a club community I beleive we owe it to him to support him on his quest. It's not like the people who played in the events at my clubs were people I knew, would know if I fell over them or will ever see again but when your a guest of my club your experience is a reflection of that club and as a member a reflection of me. So I try and make it a good experience.
Dan
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Of course the club offered a practice round schedule but also tried our best to accommodate requests outside of that time if possible. Certainly weren't giving 8:20am on Saturday, but if it was Saturday afternoon and we had availability we accommodated or told them when we could accommodate them. Tournament committee and pro make those decisons under the premise that the club wanted to put its best effort into hosting a top notch event. Participants aren't just some group paying for the privlidge but treated as we would want others to treat us if we were visiting their club.
Dan,
Each club has their own culture, their own dynamic.
At some clubs Saturday afternoons are jammed.
I know several clubs that I'm very familiar with that have the men play in the morning, women in the afternoon and couples later in the afternoon, on Saturday and Sunday. It's a rare occurance, in this area, when practice round concessions are made on the weekends.
During the week is the choice of preference, but, women's play is Tuesday, and Wednesdays are usually booked in the afternoon.
Tuesday and Thursday afternoons are the best bet, provided they don't conflict with other club events.
Fridays are booked during the summer
It virtually impossible to have an event at the club of this nature and not have someone unhappy. Certainly some members think if it inconvieniences them it must be bad, participants don't like the pins or playing partners, tee times etc, Overall the vast majority of the participants, tournament officials and members we very pleased with the event, the hospitality received and the hospitality given to our guests. The members felt like the club was a gracious host which most of the membership viewed as important. Treat others as you would want to be treated?
At the clubs I'm familiar with, they went out of their way to host events, and the competitors.
But, you can't please everyone.
For years and years, the factions favoring and disfavoring outside events engaged in their tug of war.
The overriding objection I heard is: Don't inconvenience the members.
The event dates are set and on the club calendars, so that conflict is usually solved well in advance.
Practice rounds are set well in advance.
But, accomodating the outliers isn't easy considering the various schedules you have to co-ordinate and the political gauntlet you have to run.
Once again the golfer who's schedule caused a conflict with practice round availability or such wasn't available wasn't the whining. He would have preferred being able to preview the course but didn't whine a bit about it. He just relayed the situation when I asked.
I said I appreciated your opinion and those of others. I asked the question because in my experience I have seen things done differently. I realize that different clubs and people handle things differently. However instead of stating that, your reponse was very condescending which I didn't see as necessary. However a condensending attitude seems to tie in to your views on the subject and that is why we see things so differently. Treat others as you want to be treated is what I do.
If I'm hosting a party, and the date and time is set, and you can't make it, asking me to extend the party so that you can attend is rude.
The same applies to a golf event a club is hosting, be it a tournament or a practice round.
You know the dates and the times in advance.
Asking the club to extend your invitation is rude and typically runs afoul of member interests.
Is see no entitlement in this entire discussion but obviously you do. I don't have an issue with your view on that. I expect that we just look at life differently. That is ok and what makes the world go round.
Except that I'm not alone with my views.
And, I've seen the repercussions when the guidelines are ignored or disregarded.
If you want to hold future events, the best tact is to not alienate your members by making exceptions to the format approved by the board
He really isn't a friend, he is a pro at one of my clubs. As a club member I wish to see him to well regardless of whether I like him or consider him a friend. He represents my club well and as a club community I beleive we owe it to him to support him on his quest. It's not like the people who played in the events at my clubs were people I knew, would know if I fell over them or will ever see again but when your a guest of my club your experience is a reflection of that club and as a member a reflection of me. So I try and make it a good experience.
Let me offer you another view.
If you made an exception, as President, and allowed a contestant to play their practice round at their convenience,
Why shouldn't another member, paying the same dues you pay, allow a friend of his, who's also a contestant, to play at their convenience, without a guest fee ?
I'll guarantee you that that couldn't happen and that it was only due to the power of the office you held that you could ignore or bypass the established protocol set up for practice rounds.
So, the question is, did you abuse the power of your office by granting exceptions, exceptions that all other dues paying members couldn't grant ?
Do you think resentment is built, when you wave your wand of power and grant exceptions, but, other members, of equal standing, can't do the same ?
Regarding your asst, the simplest solution would be to call a member of the hosting club and ask him to do you a favor by hosting the asst.
In addition, like doctor to doctor and lawyer to lawyer, pro to pro should have resolved this situation.
Either you, or your pro should have called the hosting club's pro, or a member, and arranged for your assistant to play his practice round.
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Dan Byrnes and Carl Johnson:
Firstly, with USGA championship qualifying sites there really is no local USGA entity that schedules, organizes and staffs (officials and rules officials) those USGA qualifiers. In all cases it's done by the USGA through a national network (and now international) of local, regional and state golf assocations. It's pretty much always been done that way and if one really thinks about it that is about the only way it could be done.
In other words, the USGA never does the actual site selections and site scheduling for their championship qualifiers----the local, regional and state golf associations do that for the USGA. In a real sense this is the necessary reality of what I would call "golf's vertical integration" and particularly the vertical integration of basically amateur golf associations from the USGA on down through the state, regional and local golf associations.
Therefore, things like practice rounds are always up to the local, regional and state associations and more fundamentally up to the clubs those associations can find and use and schedule these qualifiers with. It's always been that way. I haven't played in those qualifiers for over a decade now but my recollection is that the USGA championship entry applications have always had a notation or clause that states they (USGA) cannot and do not guarantee that qualifier practice rounds will be available.
But it is also my experience that in years past clubs were more likely to offer practice rounds to qualifier participants then they do now.
That's just the way it is and the way it always has been. Experienced competitors on that level understand this and just deal with it as they always have.
If the USGA or any of the local, regional and state associations tried to force their member clubs to have to offer all competitors practice rounds to hold USGA qualifiers at their courses the problems of getting USGA championship qualifying sites would simply get a whole lot harder for the USGA and local, regional and state associations to do.
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I understand what your saying. Most people are going to arrange their schedules to fit in the window. People are just compliant that way. Some people are going to have a scheduling conflict for some reason that may be deemed valid or invalid by others, of course some people are just going to think they are more important than anything else.
My feelings are that I would give those with a scheduling conflict the benefit of the doubt and live with getting taken advantage of a few all about me folks.
Certainly some clubs are busier than others and that is a factor. The pro at the course nows the availability better than anyone. I am to saying these folks get carte blanche but certainly the clubs I am members of have all sorts of availability on a regular basis and that availability can be offered up.
All clubs are different and that is really what drove me to post in the first place. I don't live in a major metro area and that brings a different club demographic/use than what you may experience it what appears to be the Met section. The clubs in that area very well may operate quite differently and have different busy times than my clubs do. The visitor privlidges in your area may HAVE to be far more strict due to the potential number of visitors. Same goes for a "name" club as the number of visitor request would outstrip supply for say Merion?
I don't really get that party anology. I would see it more as the actual tournament is a wedding on Martha's Vineyard and the host has arranged for seats on the Friday at 4pm ferry, doesn't really matter which one you take if there open availability and you still are on time for the wedding?
I also can't imagine a club where I was a member of where I would be told that a friend who is playing in a tournament where a practice round is allowed couldn't play that practice round with me at anytime I as the member choose? So from my experience the member and President have the same privlidges so no abuse of power? It very well may work differently in your area. Are there times at your club where you can't have a guest? I understand not multiple guests but are the restricted no guest times?
I never had to personally intervene for a participant. Part of the organization of the event was the tournament Commitee and the Pro had authority to do what allowed the club to be good hosts. I certainly took some heat in general from the membership segment who didn't think giving up the club to an event like this was a good idea as they felt inconvientieced, not really different than any of the multitude of issues members raised for tee time selection to women and secondary tee times, or whatever else was the issue I Pratt to that member or segment. We typically got more heat on local invitational than a state wide championship as their was critisism by other members vs the players who could compete in a scratch event and were willing to drop $1000 to do so? Still I think those events are good for the club and you can't make everyone happy.
you are certaily correct that had I known a member at one of the places in question I would certainly have made a call. There is also a level of club status that I don't posses that carries more weight, same with pro to pro situations. If I am a Pine Valley member and the Pro there calls to arrange for me to play elsewhere that gets me in 99% of the places, if I my membership is at some unheralded local club that 99% drops significantly as you know. Proper membership does have its privlidges.
I still don't see any entitlement, the assistant asked for a favor and was denied, he was fine with that. I was just surprised that there was not more effort made to accommodate it as there would have been at my club. Maybe there was and it wasn't relayed to the assistant or to me. Doesn't mean it would have happened 100% at my clubs but alternatives would have been offered.
It very well may come down to different areas have to operate differently due to member demands.
Dan
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I understand what your saying. Most people are going to arrange their schedules to fit in the window. People are just compliant that way. Some people are going to have a scheduling conflict for some reason that may be deemed valid or invalid by others, of course some people are just going to think they are more important than anything else.
My feelings are that I would give those with a scheduling conflict the benefit of the doubt and live with getting taken advantage of a few all about me folks.
Certainly some clubs are busier than others and that is a factor. The pro at the course nows the availability better than anyone. I am to saying these folks get carte blanche but certainly the clubs I am members of have all sorts of availability on a regular basis and that availability can be offered up.
All clubs are different and that is really what drove me to post in the first place. I don't live in a major metro area and that brings a different club demographic/use than what you may experience it what appears to be the Met section. The clubs in that area very well may operate quite differently and have different busy times than my clubs do. The visitor privlidges in your area may HAVE to be far more strict due to the potential number of visitors. Same goes for a "name" club as the number of visitor request would outstrip supply for say Merion?
I don't really get that party anology. I would see it more as the actual tournament is a wedding on Martha's Vineyard and the host has arranged for seats on the Friday at 4pm ferry, doesn't really matter which one you take if there open availability and you still are on time for the wedding?
I also can't imagine a club where I was a member of where I would be told that a friend who is playing in a tournament where a practice round is allowed couldn't play that practice round with me at anytime I as the member choose?
Once the practice round is played outside of the designated dates/times, if a participant plays with a member, the member is charged a guest fee.
So from my experience the member and President have the same privlidges so no abuse of power? It very well may work differently in your area. Are there times at your club where you can't have a guest?
Absolutely.
The only time I've seen exceptions made is when the guest is a house guest of the member and has traveled more than X amount of miles from their home.
I understand not multiple guests but are the restricted no guest times?
Yes.
Guest play is within or after predetermined times
I never had to personally intervene for a participant. Part of the organization of the event was the tournament Commitee and the Pro had authority to do what allowed the club to be good hosts. I certainly took some heat in general from the membership segment who didn't think giving up the club to an event like this was a good idea as they felt inconvientieced, not really different than any of the multitude of issues members raised for tee time selection to women and secondary tee times, or whatever else was the issue I Pratt to that member or segment. We typically got more heat on local invitational than a state wide championship as their was critisism by other members vs the players who could compete in a scratch event and were willing to drop $1000 to do so? Still I think those events are good for the club and you can't make everyone happy.
Agreed.
My point is that you don't want to wear out your welcome by abusing the established protocols and alienating your membership.
you are certaily correct that had I known a member at one of the places in question I would certainly have made a call. There is also a level of club status that I don't posses that carries more weight, same with pro to pro situations. If I am a Pine Valley member and the Pro there calls to arrange for me to play elsewhere that gets me in 99% of the places, if I my membership is at some unheralded local club that 99% drops significantly as you know. Proper membership does have its privlidges.
I still don't see any entitlement, the assistant asked for a favor and was denied, he was fine with that.
I was just surprised that there was not more effort made to accommodate it as there would have been at my club.
Maybe there was and it wasn't relayed to the assistant or to me.
Doesn't mean it would have happened 100% at my clubs but alternatives would have been offered.
Not only are clubs different from one another, but, even the same club, depending upon the timing in the golf season, view and administer things differently. Before Memorial Day and after Labor Day, things tend to be more relaxed, less crowded, thus accomodations are easier.
But, between those two dates, getting exceptions granted is like pulling teeth due to increased play.
It very well may come down to different areas have to operate differently due to member demands.
Picture Winged Foot, Baltsurol, Plainfield and Merion, and someone, during the middle of the golf season, looking for a practice round outside of the prescribed times. The demand on those clubs, in terms of member play, guest play and outing play is so tremendous, that accomodating competitors/qualifiers who couldn't meet the practice days is difficult to impossible, and you can understand that.
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...like doctor to doctor and lawyer to lawyer, pro to pro should have resolved this situation.
Pat,
This is the most sensible thing you've said regarding this situation and probably all that needed to be said. Certainly members want minimal disturbance to their opportunity to play their golf course and you've gone out of your way to explain the many situations you've experienced at your clubs. But, having been a PGA Apprentice, I never had a problem playing any course - practice or leisure round - by going through a fellow professional. Of course I never made a call down to NGLA!
Cheers
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Dan i still not get your friends problem. There are set times and days for practice rounds. It is up to him to fit in. If he cannot get that, then he will not have a practice round. The fact some clubs are more accomodating in my area than the ones described by you or Pat not change the general format. TE is correct in the USGA defers to state and local affiliates to man and organize with host club. To be a bit snarky it seems like a personal problem in understanding rules to me.
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The only time I've seen exceptions made is when the guest is a house guest of the member and has traveled more than X amount of miles from their home.
Pat,
Isn't this "ignor(ing) or bypass(ing) the established protocol"? What about a professional who, for example, lost a family member and needed to attend the funeral in a far away location? Should he/she be granted an exemption to the scheduled practice round dates? I agree with you that practice round availability is (should be) known to any competitor and it is solely their responsibility to make schedule their round accordingly. However, life happens and throws us off our schedule from time to time.
Cheers
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Pat
It seems the clubs we belong to operate very differently. I am sure a big part of it is that the Met section is quite a bit more busy. In my limited play as a guest at clubs there I never noticed but I was always playing on weekdays and only have played Quaker, Sleepy Hollow and few other lesser courses.
Out of the 5 or so clubs I have been a member of, none have any times where a member can't have one guest. There are some restrictions on multiple guests. So either because of demand or policy that is very different than your experience. If I brought a guest to my club and they were eligible for a practice round for an event , no matter when I brought them their round would be credited towards that practice round.
On a mid summer Saturday is Winged foot booked all day from dawn to dusk? Clubs in my area are never that busy.
I appreciate your enlightenment to your experiences as while I knew it would be different because of location, I was naive about how much different. It appears that my experiences aren't typical enough to support my oringnal views.
Would you be able to tell me how many members a Winged Foot or Merion or Plainfield would actually have? Also how many rounds one of the 18 hole clubs would experience in an average year.
Thanks
Dan
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The only time I've seen exceptions made is when the guest is a house guest of the member and has traveled more than X amount of miles from their home.
Pat,
Isn't this "ignor(ing) or bypass(ing) the established protocol"? What about a professional who, for example, lost a family member and needed to attend the funeral in a far away location? Should he/she be granted an exemption to the scheduled practice round dates? I agree with you that practice round availability is (should be) known to any competitor and it is solely their responsibility to make schedule their round accordingly. However, life happens and throws us off our schedule from time to time.
Cheers
yes Will,
life does happen.
We all have busy schedules, and sometimes unforseen events happen.
I coach Little League and often just can't make it to play when practice rounds are scheduled.
I've played many courses sight unseen in tournaments for just that reason,but have also had tragic events throw me off me schedule and cause me to forgo practice rounds.
Never would occur to me to call a club and ask for an exception.
Probably explains why I often perform poorly in certain events ;D, but also could explain why some assistants remain assistants :o.
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Dan i still not get your friends problem. There are set times and days for practice rounds. It is up to him to fit in. If he cannot get that, then he will not have a practice round. The fact some clubs are more accomodating in my area than the ones described by you or Pat not change the general format. TE is correct in the USGA defers to state and local affiliates to man and organize with host club. To be a bit snarky it seems like a personal problem in understanding rules to me.
I've thought the same thing for 3 days and surprised this thread is still around.
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Dan i still not get your friends problem. There are set times and days for practice rounds. It is up to him to fit in. If he cannot get that, then he will not have a practice round. The fact some clubs are more accomodating in my area than the ones described by you or Pat not change the general format. TE is correct in the USGA defers to state and local affiliates to man and organize with host club. To be a bit snarky it seems like a personal problem in understanding rules to me.
It appears your not reading it correctly or I have done a poor job of communicating it. The assistant in question who really isn't a friend but the assistant at my club didn't have a problem with the result of his inquiries.Certainly he would have preferred to have a practice round but since his schedule didn't permit it and the host club couldn't accommodate him he was fine with it.
I felt that he wasn't treated properly, however I perhaps was using my personal experiences with similar issues as too strong a barometer of the way things should be. Some of the post provided insight that I wasn't quite as knowledgeable off previously to be more open to what happened being acceptable.
I really don't see anytime to be snarky about anything though as I don't see the benefit?
Dan
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Dan,
I can't cite you the number of rounds presently, but, I've heard terms like "golf factory" and busier that a resort, when describing golf at those clubs.
Baltusrol has no pool, no tennis courts.
Winged Foot's pool is relatively new in terms of its opening.
I can't recall seeing tennis courts at WF, but, maybe they're hidden somewhere.
During summer season, on weekends, they're very busy.
At two clubs I'm very familiar with, they're packed from 7:00-7:30 till dusk on weekends.
Every club has it's own culture, it's own rules.
Some allow fivesomes, some would throw you out for playing in a fivesome.
Some are very restrictive on guest play and don't permit unaccompanied guests, some do.
Many clubs have so many events during the season that the members object to the schedule.
Others embrace every event, so there's no singular outlook.
I know from experiences, that problems have arisen when established, published protocols are............. ignored or violated.
I can remember a club that wouldn't budge on allowing contestants to have a practice round, and for some reason, the pro seemed to be the impediment. Two years later, my club held an event and I thought about rejecting requests from that club, for practice rounds, but, agreed to allow them, not wanting to punish the innocent, even though doing so might have sent a message back to that club that turnaround was fair play.
I know one thing and that's that you can't please everyone.
So, you have to try to do what's right in each particular situation and take the flack from those that disagree.
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The only time I've seen exceptions made is when the guest is a house guest of the member and has traveled more than X amount of miles from their home.
Pat,
Isn't this "ignor(ing) or bypass(ing) the established protocol"?
NO, the club had, as part of their rules, the exception for house guests.
The rules clearly defined what constituted a "house guest" the frequency of house guests and the conditions of play.
What about a professional who, for example, lost a family member and needed to attend the funeral in a far away location?
Should he/she be granted an exemption to the scheduled practice round dates?
NO
I agree with you that practice round availability is (should be) known to any competitor and it is solely their responsibility to make schedule their round accordingly.
However, life happens and throws us off our schedule from time to time.
And it's our responsibilty to get back on schedule.
If you make exceptions, they never end, and party "B" says, "you made an exception for part "A" why won't you make one for me, I also had to attend a funeral, but, it was only 10 miles away. Then, the funeral becomes a doctor's or dentist's appointment, then, he had to attend his kids school play. The list is never ending, hence, you establish a reasonable protocol and stick with it, otherwise you'll go crazy.
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The only time I've seen exceptions made is when the guest is a house guest of the member and has traveled more than X amount of miles from their home.
Pat,
Isn't this "ignor(ing) or bypass(ing) the established protocol"? What about a professional who, for example, lost a family member and needed to attend the funeral in a far away location? Should he/she be granted an exemption to the scheduled practice round dates? I agree with you that practice round availability is (should be) known to any competitor and it is solely their responsibility to make schedule their round accordingly. However, life happens and throws us off our schedule from time to time.
Cheers
yes Will,
life does happen.
We all have busy schedules, and sometimes unforseen events happen.
I coach Little League and often just can't make it to play when practice rounds are scheduled.
I've played many courses sight unseen in tournaments for just that reason,but have also had tragic events throw me off me schedule and cause me to forgo practice rounds.
Never would occur to me to call a club and ask for an exception.
Probably explains why I often perform poorly in certain events ;D, but also could explain why some assistants remain assistants :o.
True Dat!
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Pat
The two clubs you are familiar with that have e heavy play, can you ball park the membership numbers? Nothing I have experienced is close to that level of play.
Dan
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The only time I've seen exceptions made is when the guest is a house guest of the member and has traveled more than X amount of miles from their home.
Pat,
Isn't this "ignor(ing) or bypass(ing) the established protocol"?
NO, the club had, as part of their rules, the exception for house guests.
The rules clearly defined what constituted a "house guest" the frequency of house guests and the conditions of play.
What about a professional who, for example, lost a family member and needed to attend the funeral in a far away location?
Should he/she be granted an exemption to the scheduled practice round dates?
NO
I agree with you that practice round availability is (should be) known to any competitor and it is solely their responsibility to make schedule their round accordingly.
However, life happens and throws us off our schedule from time to time.
And it's our responsibilty to get back on schedule.
If you make exceptions, they never end, and party "B" says, "you made an exception for part "A" why won't you make one for me, I also had to attend a funeral, but, it was only 10 miles away. Then, the funeral becomes a doctor's or dentist's appointment, then, he had to attend his kids school play. The list is never ending, hence, you establish a reasonable protocol and stick with it, otherwise you'll go crazy.
Pat,
Again, I agree with the general premise that clubs are very generous to allow outside tournaments and it is absolutely the responsibility of the competitor to schedule in accordance with pre-published dates. But...
If you think the hypothetical of the funeral situation should unequivocally be denied, have you never asked for someone one else to be understanding and accommodating of you? Do you also believe that if automatic assault rifles are banned that our right to bear arms will be put in jeopardy? You seem very letter of the law here. Isn't there enough common sense in the private club world to deal with such situations on a case by case basis?
I do find if funny that when you talk about "exceptions" you find acceptable, they happen to be written "exceptions." If they're written in the rules, is it really an exception?
Cheers
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Again, I agree with the general premise that clubs are very generous to allow outside tournaments and it is absolutely the responsibility of the competitor to schedule in accordance with pre-published dates. But...
If you think the hypothetical of the funeral situation should unequivocally be denied, have you never asked for someone one else to be understanding and accommodating of you?
Sure,
But what you're missing is that the BOARD establishes the protocol and usually, only the President has the day to day authority to make exceptions. The manager, pro, golf chairman or committee members can't make unilateral decisions and all requests have to be filtered through a central system. Imagine the Pro making an exception for one excuse, the manager making an exception for another excuse and the golf chairman denying two identical requests. You appear to be unfamiliar with how clubs are run and the political forces which influence decisions and policies.
Do you also believe that if automatic assault rifles are banned that our right to bear arms will be put in jeopardy?
In New York City ALL firearms are prohibited unless properly licensed, and even then, carrying is strictly regulated.
But certainly automatic assault weapons have no place in Member-Guests
You seem very letter of the law here.
Well, let's just say that experience has been a great eye opener and teacher
Isn't there enough common sense in the private club world to deal with such situations on a case by case basis?
Absolutely not.
If I told you about the abuses that have occurred in this area you wouldn't believe it.
Common sense isn't so common, at private clubs and everywhere else
I do find if funny that when you talk about "exceptions" you find acceptable, they happen to be written "exceptions." If they're written in the rules, is it really an exception?
It's an exception to the published guest rules, which restrict the hours of guest play.
It required codification because it required determining the mile radius, frequency and other defining parameters
[/quote]
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I do find if funny that when you talk about "exceptions" you find acceptable, they happen to be written "exceptions." If they're written in the rules, is it really an exception?
It's an exception to the published guest rules, which restrict the hours of guest play.
It required codification because it required determining the mile radius, frequency and other defining parameters
So much for common sense? And talk about too much bureaucracy! Do you have a bunch of liberal teachers on the board? ;D
Cheers
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I do find if funny that when you talk about "exceptions" you find acceptable, they happen to be written "exceptions." If they're written in the rules, is it really an exception?
It's an exception to the published guest rules, which restrict the hours of guest play.
It required codification because it required determining the mile radius, frequency and other defining parameters
So much for common sense? And talk about too much bureaucracy! Do you have a bunch of liberal teachers on the board? ;D
Cheers
You need to remember who is serving on the boards of private clubs. In many cases, you have retired people who were usually quite successful in their given field.
Looking for an opportunity to reassert their management acumen, they take it and will often micromanage anything that can be micromanaged from guest policies to pin placements to the color of the valet's uniforms.
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I do find if funny that when you talk about "exceptions" you find acceptable, they happen to be written "exceptions." If they're written in the rules, is it really an exception?
It's an exception to the published guest rules, which restrict the hours of guest play.
It required codification because it required determining the mile radius, frequency and other defining parameters
So much for common sense? And talk about too much bureaucracy! Do you have a bunch of liberal teachers on the board? ;D
Will,
It is a common sense approach and solution to a unique situation.
Have you served on the Board of a golf club ?
Cheers