Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Dean Stokes on May 13, 2012, 06:38:07 PM
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Without the belly putter, how many of these 'belly putter' users would be on tour? Would Kuchar be there? Would Adam Scott even be on tour? I am sat here with my brother who just said what a joke it is.......it is a crutch for anyone who cannot putt the 'corrrect' way. What crutch do you have when you can't drive the ball well? Come on DS....I can't wait.
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Ps. A lot worse than watching Na have his issuese is watching a young man not fight his issues by using a wand......so sad.
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Ps. Na is painful.
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I'm not real sure, but I think I remember prior discussions of the BP issue on this site. I've got no problem with an anchored putter at all. Anyone can use it. The game evolves. Na . . . Na.
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Ps. To get back to gca....if there isn't a more interesting, thought/shot inducing course..."tell me where it is.
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Laird as well , they all look like they are cheating with the long putter. I think it is a disgrace that the game has gone this way.
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Kuchar doesn't anchor his putter, so you can remove him from the list of mortal offenders against the game. He runs the shaft up his left forearm and does not anchor it.
The top 11 players in the Strokes Gained - Putting stat on Tour this year (I'm almost positive; I don't think Duval or Marin Flores use non-conventional length putters) all use conventional-length putters. Carl Petersson, at #12, uses the long putter. By my count, three winners this year use anchor putters. Once the top putters on Tour are all using them, maybe there'll be a case against them. At the moment, I don't see it.
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Yep, hard to argue for banning something that offers no particular advantage. The so-called belly putter basically fails the old man "Keep Off My Lawn!!!" test but otherwise seems so far to be just another game-fixing fad with no real, lasting benefit.
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I wonder if the mothers of this thread's posters hear their children cry "waaahh, waaaahhh, waaaahhhh" across time and space?
Boys, give it up! The reason they putt well for a time is that they have made a switch and have re-energized their thought/kinesthetic connection. Ernie Els even got better for a time.
It doesn't help the nerves, trust me. What helps the nerves is repeated success, which breeds confidence.
You want disgraceful? There are closeted skeletons on the pro golf tour, just as in any other sport. They haven't hit the news yet, if ever. When they do, you may recur to the term "disgrace."
Does a long putter help you to read green speed and slope better? Nope. As one wag said, the game evolves.
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Would John Senden - who has been on the tour for 10 years and been in the top 10 in GIR for 8 of those years (many of those top 5) - be better if he used a long putter?
And, of course Adam Scott would be on the tour with a short putter.
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Would Adam Scott be on tour without the ugly long putter? Doubtful. He was gone without it. How many others would not be there without one? It is a crutch for those who cannot putt. Worse to me than any other aid in the game. Just my opinion.
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I agree that belly putters should be banned. Anything that is anchored should be banned. I am ok if it is anchored on the arm, though. I remember seeing someone that had a super tall putter, almost up to the neck, but it wasnt anchored; I'm ok with that.
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Adam Scott was, in fact, somewhat successful on Tour with a conventional putter. And overall, I'm not sure his accomplishments since switching are a heck of a lot greater than before.
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Tim is right that Mr. Kuchar doesn't anchor his.
The others, however, do. Such use is simply against the rules.
WW
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So if Adam Scott didn't have a long putter he wouldn't be on Tour? Well that's the dumbest thing maybe on this site.
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Tim and Wade--The USGA is reportedly getting draft language as to how anchoring would be defined, but most likely what Kuchar does with the putter running up his forearm is anchoring. Having the putter touch any part of your body other than your hands would probably be anchoring. We'll see.
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I think the sticking point is that the correlation between putter and puttee is inapplicable. Guys who want to stick on tour (Langer is the prime example) will find a way. What's interesting is that we don't see the same amount of belly putters on the LPGA nor Ladies European tours; there must be no crappy putters among the women.
I think that the subtext of this thread is that some fellows (I'll leave them as "some fellows") have an issue with what they perceive as the aesthetic of professional golf. If this aesthetic is violated in some fashion, the easiest way out is to cry out, rules violation.
Thinking along these lines, we would have few of the advances in other sports, industry, literature that we have today. Remember when "ain't" was proper English? Of course you do not, but it once was. Contractions are, but not as they always were, nor as they once were not.
Go to your grave decrying the use of the belly putter, of anchoring this against your that; the elite will rise to the top.
Why does anyone care what the average tour player does, anyhow?
I'll bet that Kuchar doesn't finish in the top five of the remaining three majors and that he doesn't finish in the top four of the Player of the Year vote. Belly putter doesn't salve all wounds.
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Ron:
I agree with everything you've written...except the last paragraph. I'll take that bet.
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For all I care, they can anchor their putters to their belly or chest, or they can run them up their arm. All I ask is that they make the same basic stroke with all their clubs. So if they can hit driver with it tucked firmly in their belly button, more power to them. Sam's putting method was outlawed for not being a golf stroke. If they can't stroke their long balls with the same style they stroke their putt, then they have to drop their non-golf stroke putting style.
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Garland...does that extend to the same basic grip? Would you outlaw reverse overlap, saw, claw, left hand low?
What about actual rubber grip on club? Would you have all grips be identical on all clubs?
I don't see how we can compare the rolling-on-the-ground aspect of the game to the soaring-through-the-sky one. They are two entirely different games brought together by mad Scotsmen.
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hahaha,
what would a long putter look like in a Mackenzie Bag?
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Garland...does that extend to the same basic grip? Would you outlaw reverse overlap, saw, claw, left hand low?
What about actual rubber grip on club? Would you have all grips be identical on all clubs?
I don't see how we can compare the rolling-on-the-ground aspect of the game to the soaring-through-the-sky one. They are two entirely different games brought together by mad Scotsmen.
Did they legislate to Sam what kind of grip he had to take? I don't think so. There were concerned with the stroke. I'm looking for consistency here from the USGA. What they can do to a hillbilly, they should be able to do the the pampered country club types at the top of the game today.
Also, I think you are wrong about the game brought together by mad Scotsmen. If Kegan Bradley had to putt on old Scottish greens, he would throw away that abomination he uses in an instant. The old Scotsmen were not familiar with your soaring-through-the-sky and putting on glass games that you are referencing.
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I admire the ingenuity of the long putter and the belly putter. Someone woke up one day and thought: "There has to be a better way to putt," and he figured out something that WORKED. One of the best amateur players in the country putts side-saddle with a mid-length putter (at least I think it's mid-length). His name is Randy Haag, and he's from Northern California. And he doesn't care how it looks, he just goes out and KICKS YOUR ASS.
I say: Good on him for figuring out this devilishly difficult game such that he can compete with the best amateur players in the country, even as he approaches 50 years old.
By the way, I know several guys who use the belly putter who do NOT anchor the putter. In fact, Kuchar does not "anchor" his belly putter at all. How could you ever write a rule that eliminates the belly putter for those not anchoring it. I just don't get the crusade, I guess....
BTW, I have used a long putter in the past, but had better success with the "Heavy Putter" to cure my yips. I'm now back to a standard length, standard weight putter, but I encourage golfers to use whatever works best for them.
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Quite a few of the guys I play with have difficulty using a standard length putter without it being forceably anchored against their belly!
Should we ban big bellies?
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Thinking along these lines, we would have few of the advances in other sports, industry, literature that we have today. Remember when "ain't" was proper English? Of course you do not, but it once was. Contractions are, but not as they always were, nor as they once were not.
I hate to break it to you but "ain't" still isn't proper English. It might be acceptable American, though.
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Mark Pearce...Reread-it once was proper English, for the English, not the Americans. Thanks for overcoming your fear of breaking it to me, though.
Garland..."The old Scotsmen were not familiar with your soaring-through-the-sky and putting on glass games that you are referencing." I never reference "putting on glass." I'm not a fan of stimp speeds over 9, let it be known (and let it be known that we could outlaw the stimp meter, too, in order to veil that aspect of the game from the public; most folks enhance the natural speed of their club's greens, anyhow.)
There can be no doubt that the old Scotsmen could tell that the ball they were hitting with that primarily straight-faced club (putter) would roll along the ground and balls struck with the angled clubs would NOT. That part is undeniable; if anyone lofts putts in the air or rolls (not punches, bumps or caroms) shots of any yardage along the ground, anyone has not learned the basic elements of the stroke.
The BP, the HP, any P will not cure putting ailments. Once typical amateurs get going on a good run, they start to think about their score and play defensively. There are no statistics that support an unfair advantage gained by the belly putter. Did anyone see that left to right swinger from the back portion of the 13th green at Sawgrass yesterday, the one that everyone (caddies and pros) continuously under read? Nothing helped that one.
From personal experience, the longer putts with the BP are easily the most challenging; a free-swinging putter helps oodles with that one. I could go on (applause, applause?)
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Tim and Wade--The USGA is reportedly getting draft language as to how anchoring would be defined, but most likely what Kuchar does with the putter running up his forearm is anchoring. Having the putter touch any part of your body other than your hands would probably be anchoring. We'll see.
What a terriffic use of 250 million $ stash.
Guess they didn't notice those drivers the size of waffle irons and wind tunnel defying golf balls.
Have belly putters resulted in the disfiguring of any clatssic courses?
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Garland..."The old Scotsmen were not familiar with your soaring-through-the-sky and putting on glass games that you are referencing." I never reference "putting on glass." I'm not a fan of stimp speeds over 9, let it be known (and let it be known that we could outlaw the stimp meter, too, in order to veil that aspect of the game from the public; most folks enhance the natural speed of their club's greens, anyhow.)
There can be no doubt that the old Scotsmen could tell that the ball they were hitting with that primarily straight-faced club (putter) would roll along the ground and balls struck with the angled clubs would NOT. That part is undeniable; if anyone lofts putts in the air or rolls (not punches, bumps or caroms) shots of any yardage along the ground, anyone has not learned the basic elements of the stroke.
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Hate to break it to you, but stimp of 9 would be putting on glass for the old Scots. The "stroke" of the modern game seems to me to be totally inadequate to what the Scots must have been using in the beginning. And I have no doubt there was some lofting of the ball with the putter when the game began.
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Tim and Wade--The USGA is reportedly getting draft language as to how anchoring would be defined, but most likely what Kuchar does with the putter running up his forearm is anchoring. Having the putter touch any part of your body other than your hands would probably be anchoring. We'll see.
What a terriffic use of 250 million $ stash.
Guess they didn't notice those drivers the size of waffle irons and wind tunnel defying golf balls.
Have belly putters resulted in the disfiguring of any clatssic courses?
I suspect that at this juncture, having completely abdicated their responsibility to manage the distance the ball flies and then striking out on reigning in the driver they're looking for one battle they feel is a sure win. Perhaps they'll decide that "putter anchoring" has such a whiff of desperation and failure about it that it's a sitting duck they can obliterate with the $250 million worth of artillery.
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The problem with the anchored putters is not that some older players need them, it's that it is taking over the junior game. I can't verify this but I was told that approaching 40% of the players at the AJGA Championship last year used anchored putters. If true, what does this say about the future of the game. Also, I understand that anchored chippers and pitchers have hit the market. I hope the USGA gets going on this, but with a long-enough lead time to spare us older guys, but to deter the young guys from going that way.
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The problem with the anchored putters is not that some older players need them, it's that it is taking over the junior game. I can't verify this but I was told that approaching 40% of the players at the AJGA Championship last year used anchored putters. If true, what does this say about the future of the game. Also, I understand that anchored chippers and pitchers have hit the market. I hope the USGA gets going on this, but with a long-enough lead time to spare us older guys, but to deter the young guys from going that way.
This is the problem they're worrying about.
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I admire the ingenuity of the long putter and the belly putter. Someone woke up one day and thought: "There has to be a better way to putt," and he figured out something that WORKED. One of the best amateur players in the country putts side-saddle with a mid-length putter (at least I think it's mid-length). His name is Randy Haag, and he's from Northern California. And he doesn't care how it looks, he just goes out and KICKS YOUR ASS.
I found it surprising that Randy Haag resorted to this... I played with him in a couple of NCGA tournaments in the Mid 90s, and he was phenomenal around and on the greens. Hard to believe his nerves degraded to this point.... I wonder if he tried the belly putter before moving onto side saddle.
I was a terrible putter back then... my troubles on the greens basically ended my tournament career. Switched to the claw about 8 years ago and regained some level of competence on the greens..of course the rest of my game went in the toilet around that time...
The USGA's non-action on this is obviously a form of action. In their minds it does not provide an unfair advantage... although it does allow some golfers the chance to keep competing as some people have pointed out. My experience is that whatever alternative method of putting you find works for you, it improves your chances inside 15 ft. At that point there is trade-off in distance/feel.
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The problem with the anchored putters is not that some older players need them, it's that it is taking over the junior game. I can't verify this but I was told that approaching 40% of the players at the AJGA Championship last year used anchored putters. If true, what does this say about the future of the game. Also, I understand that anchored chippers and pitchers have hit the market. I hope the USGA gets going on this, but with a long-enough lead time to spare us older guys, but to deter the young guys from going that way.
Jim I can't speak for that event but when the AJGA was here in Houston a few months ago (if that long) I saw a bunch of players and I think I saw a few belly putters but nothing like a 40% clip.
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I just took the belly putter out of my bag after missing a 5 foot putt to win my member-member tournament (at least to continue playing). I putt in a 33" putter like I used to play and drained many more short putts the following day including a 10' putt to win my match on 18. I feel I have more control of the shorter putter. Bye bye belly.
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As a long putter user for the past 17 years, I find many of your views regarding this issue quite humorous. :) I just don't see it as a plague on the game like you do. I think the USGA & R&A should be much more concerned about 15 year olds driving it 325 yds as opposed to what they putt with. I still have yet to see any concise info or study that proves the long putter to be such a huge advantage. Until I do, I'll continue to think that way and use what I want to get the ball in the hole. If it's banned, I'll be very surprised.
It's not that difficult to use a long putter without actually anchoring it to your body. I can hold mine in only my hands without any part of the putter/grip touching by body and still make what you'd think is an achored stroke. What do you do then?
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Switched to the claw about 8 years ago and regained some level of competence on the greens..
Well, I think the claw looks stupid, provides an unfair advantage and is a mockery of the game. I think that should be banned.
I think left hand low looks stupid, provides an unfair advantage and is a mockery of the game. I think that should be banned.
I think lightweight, double strapped golf bags - especially the ones with bagstands - look stupid and are a mockery of the game and provide an unfair advantage. I think they should be banned.
I think golf gloves look stupid, provides an unfair advantage and are a mockery of the game (plus, they leave you with a hideous tan line on one hand). I think they should be banned.
I think guys who swing from one side but putt from the other looks stupid, provides an unfair advantage and is a mockery of the game. I think that should be banned.
I think all those white headed drivers and fairway woods look stupid, provides an unfair advantage and are a mockery of the game. I think that should be banned.
For that matter, I think all those goofy colored shafts look stupid, provides an unfair advantage and are a mockery of the game. I think they should be banned.
And I think left the Gary Player walk-through shot looks stupid, provides an unfair advantage and is a mockery of the game. I think that should be banned, too.
Plus, I think cavity backed irons and, now, all these hybrids look stupid, provides an unfair advantage and are a mockery of the game. They provide a huge advantage to all the chops out there. There are tons of guys who wouldn't even be playing on tour without them... they're all just a bunch of big pussies who can't hit a blade 1 iron like a man... so I think all those clubs should be melted down and used to build homeless shelters or something...
The point is that once you open the floodgates...
Where ... does ... this ... banning ... nonsense ... ever ... END?
The line is drawn in the sand at cheater lines, I can hardly believe you left that one out.
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I still have yet to see any concise info or study that proves the long putter to be such a huge advantage. Until I do, I'll continue to think that way and use what I want to get the ball in the hole. If it's banned, I'll be very surprised.
Don't hold your breath on that one. It's hard to provide hard proof of the existence of an effect that's entirely in the minds of a bunch of Old Farts.
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In all honesty I have noticed that double strap bags lead to a more pronounced iron click. I can't tell you how sick I am of walking golfers who announce their arrival by the click of their irons.
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In all honesty I have noticed that double strap bags lead to a more pronounced iron click. I can't tell you how sick I am of walking golfers who announce their arrival by the click of their irons.
I tried, and quickly gave up on, the double-strap for precisely that reason. Iron clicks are unbearable and it was driving me batty.
Thank you. The modern double strapped golfer is the rudest in the history of the game. I recently played in an outing plagued by slow play and we had no peace on the greens as they marched up on us click, talk, click, click, laugh, talk, click, bag slam, talk laugh. It was a longer course where one of the guys couldn't reach some of the par fours in two so he would sometimes get within ten yards of the green. Cart ballers never do that because of the signs.
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The problem with the anchored putters is not that some older players need them, it's that it is taking over the junior game. I can't verify this but I was told that approaching 40% of the players at the AJGA Championship last year used anchored putters. If true, what does this say about the future of the game. Also, I understand that anchored chippers and pitchers have hit the market. I hope the USGA gets going on this, but with a long-enough lead time to spare us older guys, but to deter the young guys from going that way.
Jim I can't speak for that event but when the AJGA was here in Houston a few months ago (if that long) I saw a bunch of players and I think I saw a few belly putters but nothing like a 40% clip.
For what it's worth, my recollection from playing in a handful of AJGA tournaments is that well more than 40% of AJGA parents will buy their kids anything their kids ask for to help them putt/play/look better:
KID [clad in Puma all orange, a la Rickie Fowler, pointing to $350 custom Scotty Cameron putter with $80 limited-edition headcover in name-embroidered stand bag]: "Mom/Dad, I had TWO three-putts today! This putter sucks; I need a new one!"
PARENT [sighing, hanging head: "Okay. Find the nearest golf store on your iPad." [reaches forlornly for wallet]
The older brothers of those same 40% were all wearing the same J. Lindeberg $100 pants six, seven years ago too.
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JK - true with the double strap, I try to keep a towel wrapped within the clubheads to limit that. It just is not a natural position to get my hand on the clubheads where the double strap places the bag. It was much easier to quiet the clubs when I used to carry with my old Vagabond bag.
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On the rare occasions I carry rather than push I spend 80% of the round with my double-strap bag over just the right shoulder. Easier on/off, less clanking and easier access to the pockets. When my shoulder gets tired I can wear the second strap for a while to give it a rest.
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The ball goes too far. Banning the long or the anchored putter is really nibbling around the edges. ;)
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No question the belly putter is a crutch. I say so what. Show me a man with a crutch, and I'll show you a man with a bum leg...
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I switched to the long putter about two months ago thanks to a poster on here who also happens to be a world-class amateur. I struggled for a few weeks with my normal putter, and when I say struggle I mean I started putting with a garden hose almost over-night. Then I looked around at all the other top players at my club and they all had long and belly putters too. I'm now the proud owner of one.
What I've found best about the long putter is that I use it to steady myself as I'm shooting a yardage with my laser. Don't want to pick up those deadly laser yips ya know.
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The problem with the anchored putters is not that some older players need them, it's that it is taking over the junior game. I can't verify this but I was told that approaching 40% of the players at the AJGA Championship last year used anchored putters. If true, what does this say about the future of the game. Also, I understand that anchored chippers and pitchers have hit the market. I hope the USGA gets going on this, but with a long-enough lead time to spare us older guys, but to deter the young guys from going that way.
so what?
are they hitting their putters further?
what's wrong with innovation of technique?
while we let the ball and drivers (and yes now fairway woods)go farther every year........
amazingly misguided
amazing
let me know when they start putting slopes BACK into greens.... because putting is too easy.
What a freaking, misguided .......
stop me please
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Did they legislate to Sam what kind of grip he had to take? I don't think so. There were concerned with the stroke. I'm looking for consistency here from the USGA.
Well, two things...
First, in fact they were NOT concerned with the stroke. They were concerned with the address position. So you're wrong there.
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Last time this came up, I drug up the SI article that demonstrated they were concerned with the stroke. They just found the stance as the way to get at it.
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This thread is freaking hysterical. I nominate DSchmidt for funniest pr!ck out there. Wait, I can't, because I want him banned.
Cavity back irons, face-balanced putters, composite shafts, softspikes, breathable fabrics, reservoir-tipped...oh, wait, wrong thread.
Anyway, time marches on. I have a bum leg but I also want to become a better putter. Therefore, I use the belly putter to relearn the short-putter stroke.
Don't get me started on AimPoint...must be something illegal about that.
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As a long putter user for the past 17 years, I find many of your views regarding this issue quite humorous. :) I just don't see it as a plague on the game like you do. I think the USGA & R&A should be much more concerned about 15 year olds driving it 325 yds as opposed to what they putt with. I still have yet to see any concise info or study that proves the long putter to be such a huge advantage. Until I do, I'll continue to think that way and use what I want to get the ball in the hole. If it's banned, I'll be very surprised.
It's not that difficult to use a long putter without actually anchoring it to your body. I can hold mine in only my hands without any part of the putter/grip touching by body and still make what you'd think is an achored stroke. What do you do then?
fwiw, in the April 30 2012 issue of Golf World, there was a piece in the Bunker section titled "Discussions to ban anchoring continue" that basically said it was a fait accompli that it will be banned, and that the R&A are currently working on a number of different possible 'wordings' for the ruling. In the article Peter Dawson says that "discussions with the USGA on the matter....proceeding 'at quite an intense pace'". So, it's coming.
As for the second bit - don't mean to sound like a smart aleck, but if the putter is not anchored to your body, it's not really an anchored stroke, is it? Do you mean that you are just choking down on a really long putter but not sticking the end against your belly?
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When it arrives, then it was coming. Until then, it isn't coming.
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Shivas,
Fair enough....as a logical follow on.
Are you for or against limitations of the size of the ball?
Head Size limitations for drivers?
COR limitation for drivers?
Mallot style putting?
Length of shaft restrictions?
Because all of those are also in the spirit of "tinkering"....
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Sadly enough the short putter shown is now illegal.
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As a long putter user for the past 17 years, I find many of your views regarding this issue quite humorous. :) I just don't see it as a plague on the game like you do. I think the USGA & R&A should be much more concerned about 15 year olds driving it 325 yds as opposed to what they putt with. I still have yet to see any concise info or study that proves the long putter to be such a huge advantage. Until I do, I'll continue to think that way and use what I want to get the ball in the hole. If it's banned, I'll be very surprised.
It's not that difficult to use a long putter without actually anchoring it to your body. I can hold mine in only my hands without any part of the putter/grip touching by body and still make what you'd think is an achored stroke. What do you do then?
fwiw, in the April 30 2012 issue of Golf World, there was a piece in the Bunker section titled "Discussions to ban anchoring continue" that basically said it was a fait accompli that it will be banned, and that the R&A are currently working on a number of different possible 'wordings' for the ruling. In the article Peter Dawson says that "discussions with the USGA on the matter....proceeding 'at quite an intense pace'". So, it's coming.
As for the second bit - don't mean to sound like a smart aleck, but if the putter is not anchored to your body, it's not really an anchored stroke, is it? Do you mean that you are just choking down on a really long putter but not sticking the end against your belly?
I believe I read something that contradicted that article soon after. I think someone from the USGA was cited saying he was surprised to read those comments from the R&A.
As for your second question. I use a 49" long putter with a 2 piece grip that's pretty standard. I use what would would be a normal setup with the long putter. I grip the top grip with my left hand and my left thumb over the very top of the grip, my right hand is extended down to the lower grip. I place my left hand (top of club) just left of my sternum. Technically NO part of the club is touching anything other than my hands. My left hand rests against my chest but the grip doesn't. Is this anchoring? With belly putters the grip rests against the body. With the long putter it's quite easy to make what you might call an anchored stroke without any part of the grip touching anything but your hands. This is why the ruling bodies are going to have a very tough time with this issue. I'm curious to see what they come up with. The long putter has been around at the top level of golf for 30 years. I think a ban on them at this point is beyond stupid.
The USGA & R&A have let technology run wild over the last 20 years. Persimmon drivers were smaller than a lot of todays 3/5 woods. Graphite has replaced steel in 99% of all "woods". Good players can now play what was considered a "distance" ball in the past, with a cover better than the old balata. Where does it end? With a ban on a certain style of putting? It's absurd.
Here's a quote from an artice from 1989...
"Some players, including Arnold Palmer, Gary Player and two-time defending Showdown Classic champion Miller Barber, don't like it. "I think it looks like hell," said Barber. He also wonders if it's a true golf shot since one hand is held against the body and the putter practically swings itself through the ball.
That's what some officials of golf are wondering also. At last month's Senior Open, P.J. Boatright, the director of rules and competition for the United States Golf Association, said, "It isn't golf. It goes against the tradition of the game." He said if a rule change were to be made, it wouldn't take effect until 1991 and some players might be allowed to keep doing it under a grandfather clause."
And another from the USGA's Mike Davis last year...
"USGA Executive Director Mike Davis said the argument against the long putter has been made for decades and that his organization and the R&A will continue to monitor the situation.
"We don't want to react to trends. There is no data to suggest this method of making the stroke is causing harm to the game or giving anyone an advantage," Davis said. "We readily admit it does help some players, but do we take it out of the game for the masses?"
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All this hubbub about the long putter, is either a media driven rant, to become part of the story, or, it's a red herring. A tail wagging the dog.
I know one poster will agree with me in stating that it's the governing bodies that have refused to govern properly BECAUSE they have failed to be proactive on defining the limitations of I&B.
They have successfully turned a great sport into a game. A game with a core of participants who blindly follow the whims of the day, and, then whine when their perfectly struck shot doesn't do what they wanted it to do, once it returns to solid ground. Guess what? Thats not a perfectly struck shot, then.
What a pity...
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Once greens get fast enough you will see players using a 19 inch putter while putting from their knees. I don't think I would ever miss another three footer. I just need some help getting up.
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If belly putters are so "unfair" how come my handicap has gone UP since I switched last year....?
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If belly putters are so "unfair" how come my handicap has gone UP since I switched last year....?
Maybe Cause:
You hit your driver crooked?
Or you shank your irons?
Blade your wedges?
My handicap has been going up for half a year now and I haven't switched out any clubs....
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I posted this about 4 years ago. I thought it apropos:
A photo:
I've been saying for years that equipment tinkering and experimentation is, and always has been, part of the fabric and spirit of the game. Certain neanderthals around here ;) just can't seem to understand that since the very first day the first shepherd grabbed a stick to whack a sheep turd, a different shepherd went scrambling for a stronger stick and a more solid turd!
And it's gone on ever since.
There is nothing outside the spirit of the game in any of this. It is and always has been part of the game.
So lay off the long putter! It, just like every club in every one of our bags today, is the logical progeny of this experimentation -- the great, great grandchild of your much-beloved Golden Age.
Absolutely true. We are tinkerers. We are tool users. We are also goal-oriented. Put those two things together, and it's easy to understand why golfers look for ways to get the ball in the hole in a more expedient manner.
Give it up you Luddites!!! :-)
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Shivas,
Fair enough....as a logical follow on.
Are you for or against limitations of the size of the ball?
Head Size limitations for drivers?
COR limitation for drivers?
Mallot style putting?
Length of shaft restrictions?
Because all of those are also in the spirit of "tinkering"....
I asked this question of Shivas, but so far no response.
Anyone else want to take a stab at why one kind of "tinkering" is seemingly OK, yet other types aren't?
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Shivas,
Fair enough....as a logical follow on.
Are you for or against limitations of the size of the ball?
Head Size limitations for drivers?
COR limitation for drivers?
Mallot style putting?
Length of shaft restrictions?
Because all of those are also in the spirit of "tinkering"....
I asked this question of Shivas, but so far no response.
Anyone else want to take a stab at why one kind of "tinkering" is seemingly OK, yet other types aren't?
I'm for limitations on the golf ball and anything else that allows it to go much farther than today, but that is a PRACTICAL issue for me. We can't keep allowing golf courses to get longer and longer, as they just become too expensive, and the game takes too long when 12 handicaps want to test themselves from "the tips" at 9,000 yards! LOL!!!
I also believe that staddling the line is not something that should be allowed in a normal stroke. Everything else (off the top of my head) is fair game as far as I'm concerned....
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Dave,
Thanks for taking a stab at it. Sounds like you're against everything on that list then because they all boil down to two things...
More length and mallot style putting.
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...
I also believe that staddling the line is not something that should be allowed in a normal stroke. Everything else (off the top of my head) is fair game as far as I'm concerned....
I can imagine a ball coming to rest on the edge of a hazard where the only stance a player could take and have any semblance of balance would be to straddle the line. I don't know if such a stance is outlawed other than on the putting green, but it seems you would outlaw it. If it is outlawed and a player took such a stance, would anyone notice he did something against the rules?
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If reports are correct, Mike Davis and the usga rules comm. are actually gonna do something.
I find that hard to believe, but, if they do...?
Are they reacting to media pressure? or, What?
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Adam, according to the story I saw yesterday, it sounds like a ban on anchoring is imminent. Mike Davis himself said that there's no statistical evidence suggesting the long putters give any sort of advantage over more traditional putters. In his words, they're banning it because they don't like the way it looks.
With that in mind, I don't see how it can be anything but a caving to pressure from uninformed sources, namely the media and whiny players.
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I would have possibly quit the game without the alternative of a belly putter.
I had the yips so bad I began to shank putts.
Be careful with what you want - the results might hurt the game (which is not professional play)
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If there's no evidence it helps, then why would so many use it? How can they even get clean statistical data? You don't have concurrent data on how guys who are using it would do without it. My bet is several of them drop significantly down the money list, if not off tour altogether. Good riddance.
http://blogs.golf.com/presstent/2012/10/tiger-woods-favors-belly-putter-ban.html#
http://espn.go.com/golf/pgachampionship12/story/_/id/8247206/2012-pga-championship-webb-simpson-bristles-talk-belly-putter-ban
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What a waste.. the USGA let the ball get away from them and now that want to make themselves look relevent some how. More people will just cheat if they ban it.
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I bet we will see a lot of this if the ban happens
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcWUH19xcjA&feature=related
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Adam, according to the story I saw yesterday, it sounds like a ban on anchoring is imminent. Mike Davis himself said that there's no statistical evidence suggesting the long putters give any sort of advantage over more traditional putters. In his words, they're banning it because they don't like the way it looks.
With that in mind, I don't see how it can be anything but a caving to pressure from uninformed sources, namely the media and whiny players.
If a ruling is handed down banning the long and belly putters I would hope that the rationale is something more than they don't like the way it looks. If there is no evidence that these putters actually helps then banning it for the sake of looks seems rather odd. My feeling is if it truly is an advantage over the rest of the field then why doesn’t the rest of the field also use them? I can’t imagine professional golfers are purposefully leaving strokes and money on the table because of principle.
I tried a long putter for a brief period several years ago and just didn’t make enough putts with it to justify keeping it in the bag. I found it provided no advantage to me and rather found it more difficult to use especially on touch putts. If someone has success with it then I would argue that they have a developed skill that they are able to do better than others and should be allowed to continue to use that skill. I now use a conventional length putter but use a claw grip. Are they going to ban claw grips because they don’t “like the way it looks”?
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I'd rather see a rule of no more than 56 degrees of loft in the bag. Totally doable, could happen overnight without having to manufacture anything, and would make the game MUCH more interesting IMO.
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The man that tackled "Bird Man" at this years open, could surely tackle bigger fish, than this anchoring red herring.
Length of club is the only rule change that could come close, to adhering to the way I understand the rules.
It's a pity, one of our old posters, was promoted to the level of where he would be a fool to discuss and opine. (not a pity that he was promoted, that he shouldn't discuss, for livelihood survival reasons)
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"The don't like the way it looks" excuse is very lame! How come this excuse is overlooked when it comes to the actual putter models themselves?
The very first sentence in the Rules of Golf regarding clubheads states, "The clubhead must be generally plain in shape" Huh? Apparently when they approve designs they don't pay attention to this stipulation at all. The last time I was in the putter section of a golf store, I didn't see too many new models that were "plain in shape".
(http://assets1.golfdiscount.com/products/46441/medium/odyssey-metal-x-dart-belly-putter.jpg?1334253873)
(http://assets1.golfdiscount.com/products/44170/medium/taylormade-ghost-spider-putter.jpg?1308608754)
(http://assets1.golfdiscount.com/products/36145/medium/white-ice-sabertooth-putter.jpg)
There's a reason that everyone on tour hasn't switched and it's pretty simple really. Long/belly putters can make mediocre/poor (Short) putter users better, but if a guy can already putt well with the shorty, switching to a long model will not make him improve on top of that.
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There's a reason that everyone on tour hasn't switched and it's pretty simple really. Long/belly putters can make mediocre/poor (Short) putter users better, but if a guy can putt well with the shorty, switching to a long model will not make him improve on top of that.
Bingo. Sounds like reason enough to me. I can't believe all you guys are whining about this. Isn't making putts inside 10 feet what separates Tour players from thousands of guys who can bomb and gouge it with the best of 'em (not to mention money club match players)? This is at the heart of the game IMHO. Yes, most of us would like them to do a lot more, but it's a small step in the right direction.... Paging Shivas. Shivas, White Courtesy Phone....
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If they never removed all slope and character from the greens, long putters would be much less popular.
In a way, it's rise is directly related to the ego driven speed race.
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Adam,
That's an interesting theory, one I tend to agree with.
I think long putts over contoured putting surfaces are a challenge for the long putter, whose fortay seems to be short to medium length putts
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Adam,
That's an interesting theory, one I tend to agree with.
I think long putts over contoured putting surfaces are a challenge for the long putter, whose fortay seems to be short to medium length putts
That has been my experience. Since switching to the long putter in July, I've had most difficulty with long putts over undulating surfaces.
There are tradeoffs with any club and any method. I just can't believe the USGA considers this the biggest problem the game is facing.
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Seems there are 2 issues
One is the anchoring of the putter to the body the second is the length of the putter. As noted Kuchar uses a belly putter but does not anchor it to his belly.
The other issue is length of putter such as the "broomstick" that Langer uses. That one from what I can see does not anchor against the body.
Are they looking at defining a length a putter can be and if it can be anchored against the body? Or just one?
They seem to be very different issues at least to me. I suspect you could anchor a 35 inch standard utter if you choose to.
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John,
At this point I believe they're only looking at anchoring for any putter and not at the length of the club. I agree that it would be pretty simple to just say that a putter can't be longer than 33" or something but then some clown would come along putting with a rescue club or something...Admittedly it would seem to be harder to make a pendulum stroke that didn't involve small twitch muscles without anchoring it...
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Jud
So that would mean that Bernard Langer could continue to use his long putter and Randy Haag could still put side saddle as I do not think either could be defined as anchoring them to the body.
If the USGA & RA do ban anchoring I wonder if there will then be an outcry on the putter length?
In the end putting with any instrument takes some skill. If the belly putter was guaranteed 100% you hole out every PGA pro would have one. None the less I do find anchoring to the body in no way in the spirit of the game
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I think this whole concept is rather silly, given that these putters have been around in some form for years. The technology issues most affecting the game deal with distance, not putting.
But then regarding anchoring, what is anchoring. When I putt with a long putter the club itself doesn't touch anything but my hands. But, my hand/fist is touching is my chest. Is that anchoring?
If the answer to the previous questions is yes, then what if I move my hand out an inch or two? It's a little tougher stroke, but with practice I bet I could get good at it. And what if I wear a baggy shirt and the wind is blowing and my shirt grazes my hand while putting...
Silly, but the USGA better figure out answers if they go through with this. As a non-tournament golfer, I'm not sure how much I really care, but its a silly thing to do for a game that needs more GOLFERS, not more frustration.
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A long putter has helped my game. I think it's easier to putt acceptably with one than a traditional putter for me. So I think it's more of an advantage to amateurs like me than it would be for Tiger Woods who already is pretty proficient with a short putter. My statistics aren't overwhelmingly better though.
It's made golf fun again for me. I am a 9 handicap. If they get banned I will stop using mine though, I use new wedges with the new standards groves not that it matters at my level but I want to play by the same rules as the best do.
Dan
BTW a belly putter was a disaster, worse than any other method for me.
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But then regarding anchoring, what is anchoring. When I putt with a long putter the club itself doesn't touch anything but my hands. But, my hand/fist is touching is my chest. Is that anchoring?
Yes, I believe that's anchoring. You're getting a fixed point to swing your pendulum from.
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I recall Tim Liddy referring to a quote tat mentioned Fast greens were easier to putt on because you only needed the right line...I think that ties into belly putters pretty directly.
Bring some slope and slower greens back, guarantee less pros will be using them less and looking for more touch on the greens.
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But then regarding anchoring, what is anchoring. When I putt with a long putter the club itself doesn't touch anything but my hands. But, my hand/fist is touching is my chest. Is that anchoring?
Yes, I believe that's anchoring. You're getting a fixed point to swing your pendulum from.
How would it be any different if the fixed point isn't touching the body? I can find a fixed spot 2 inches out too.
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Andy,
One moving part is easier than two moving parts. It's a lot easier to keep your top hand still if it's jammed into your sternum than if it's floating freely in space. Picture the long pendulum on a grandfather clock. Now picture the same pendulum detached from the clock...
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Jud,
Is it? I've played around with my putter and its not really THAT different. As with any change it takes some practice, but I expect I could learn to use it that way. You're basically putting with your right hand/arm anyway, so the left one can be kept tighter to avoid movement.
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Perhaps they will try to limit the number of contact points to 2. Calling the entire hand, 1?
That way a person who CHOSE to putt one handed, could anchor the club somewhere else too. i.e. their forearm, sternum, or anywhere a person might creatively make a stroke.
I just don't see how you can write a rule to define anchoring, without saying the club is anchored to the hands.
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There's a reason that everyone on tour hasn't switched and it's pretty simple really. Long/belly putters can make mediocre/poor (Short) putter users better, but if a guy can putt well with the shorty, switching to a long model will not make him improve on top of that.
I can't believe all you guys are whining about this. Isn't making putts inside 10 feet what separates Tour players from thousands of guys who can bomb and gouge it with the best of 'em (not to mention money club match players)?
Jud,
No - that isn't what separates bomb and gougers from tour players. It could be in a list of a million reasons, but here's a few to get some perspective:
1. The ability to consistently hit solid shots under pressure
2. The ability to hit great shots with hundreds of people just feet away
3. The ability to hit great shots with thousands of people watching on tv
4. The ability to hit great shots for hundreds of thousands of dollars on the line
5. The ability to do it over and over again....over 4 days, weeks, years.
6. The ability to play golf courses set up with a rating that would smoke a large percentage of those thousands of others you say bomb and gouge it
7. Hitting golf shots when your livelihood depends on it
8. Playing with the pressure that you don't get paid if you don't perform Thursday and Friday...most club guys only know "casual Fridays"
8. Doing all this while traveling a good portion of the year being away from their family
9. Keeping all those bombs IN PLAY
10. Practicing these things over and over just to stay out there.
I could go on and on.
Now, wouldn't it seem that we'd have a huge percentage of young players on tour right now using a belly or long putter if it as so much easier? We don't, and it's been around forever. I've seen more guys try it and put it down because they can't do it or just hate it.
I understand your position, but that argument doesn't hold water.
If you want to change rules because you think something's become too easy, you should start with drivers and the golf ball itself.
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Mike,
Perhaps. Just don't try and sell it to Gary Groh.
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I'd rather see a rule of no more than 56 degrees of loft in the bag. Totally doable, could happen overnight without having to manufacture anything, and would make the game MUCH more interesting IMO.
Why?
60-degree wedges have been around for almost 100 years.
I don't get it.
K
FWIW, I have a "collection" of wedges as evidenced by these pictures of my garage ceiling:
(http://creamgravy.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/misc_wedges.jpg)
(http://creamgravy.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/mac_wedges1.jpg)
(http://creamgravy.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/wilson_wedges1.jpg)
(http://creamgravy.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/ping_misc_wedges1.jpg)
Among those 125-odd wedges and the other boxes I have stashed, there are clubs that go back to hickory shafts. A few of them from pre-1935 have lofts of 60 degrees. Some from the 1950s and 60s have 58-60 degrees.
You have to remember that 50 years ago pitching wedges often had more than 50* of loft.
K
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Can't say I agree at all with the notion that an anchored hand doesn't move - ie one fixed point for the pendulum. Damn near everyone's body moves to some degree, in the case of the anchored belly or long putter, it just moves differently than it would with a "regular" putting stroke. It's not like your anchoring to a cement wall, pulling the club back and just letting go with your other hand, allowing gravity to do the trick. Heck, even if you were doing that, you'd still have to calibrate the pressure of your hand doing the anchoring.
Similarly, I can't say I understand the hubbub over belly/long putters. They are far less ugly to me than 400+ cc drivers or some of the other bizarro putters out there. Big drivers help poor drivers of the ball, just like hybrids help people who can't hit long irons and sand wedges help people get out of the sand. Everyone believes his clubs are the best ones chosen for the intended purpose.
Just makes me appreciate Pat Brockwell's simple wisdom even more...
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George,
On the face of it, which would you say most likely provides a better anchor: a club/hand resting on your chest or a club/hand held in place in space?
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... Big drivers help poor drivers of the ball, ...
Big drivers give people more confidence to swing hard. Small drivers might just force them to learn to swing well.
There are teachers out there that claim that small clubheads and blades allow their pupils to learn faster, because they get more feedback.
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Ken,
Do you have any Berylium Ping Eye 2 Sand and L-Wedges that you want to part with ?
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Jud,
Next time you're in a pro shop with a long putter, try holding the putter out from your body with your left hand, holding your left elbow and arm tight against the rest of your body. It may not be quite as stable as holding your hand against your chest, but there's really not much difference. If all that's banned is anchoring the club (or your hand and the club) against your body, its an easy solution.
The belly putter and the long putter are two pretty different strokes. There aren't many pros using the long putter, so its probably not as much of an issue for the USGA.
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Ken,
Do you have any Berylium Ping Eye 2 Sand and L-Wedges that you want to part with ?
I only have one L wedge and it gets enough bag time that I'm not selling.
Truthfully, the price on the sand wedges has gotten pretty low, the one I have I only bought a year or two ago.
It's about like this one http://www.ebay.com/itm/PING-EYE2-Beryllium-Copper-BeCu-Orange-Dot-Sand-Wedge-S-Titanium-Shaft-/271077441321?pt=Golf_Clubs&hash=item3f1d797f29 which is only going for $60 buy it now.
There are somemuch nicer ones being offered for less than $150
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SUPERB-PING-EYE-2-BeCu-Copper-SQUARE-GROOVE-57-SAND-WEDGE-SW-ORANGE-DOT-/160892646706?pt=Golf_Clubs&hash=item2575f2f532
The L wedges, OTOH, are really getting hard to find. But even so, they aren't bringing $300 like they were a few years ago.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/PING-EYE-2-BERYLLIUM-COPPER-BECU-BLUE-DOT-LOB-WEDGE-W-STEEL-STIFF-SHAFT-/330815471355?pt=Golf_Clubs&hash=item4d06237efb
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Any good will built up from the Ryder Cup is officially gone:
http://golfweek.com/news/2012/oct/31/bradley-intends-fight-usga-anchoring/