Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Tim Gavrich on May 07, 2012, 02:19:37 PM
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Some of the best threads on this site are very well-focused and directed. But some of my favorites have just been loosely-associated too--generally "Post pictures of your favorite ______ on a golf course." This is meant to be of the latter form.
The PLAYERS Championship is this coming weekend, at TPC Sawgrass, so what better time to talk about Pete Dye and his courses?
I have played about half a dozen Pete Dye courses and have enjoyed every single one at least good deal. I have noticed that there is a great deal of aesthetic difference among his golf courses. There are some, like the Dye Club at Barefoot Resort up in North Myrtle Beach, that seem to be highly sculptured with a lot of abrupt shaping, visible pot bunkers galore, big greens with big slopes, etc. Then there are others, like Debordieu about 60 miles south of Barefoot, which I played yesterday. I was kind of blown away by the muteness and subtlety going on at Debordieu. The greens were nightmarishly difficult to read, and almost all of them were glued to the ground such that it was exceedingly and beguilingly difficult to make out where exactly a pin was on a green, or how much room there was on the periphery of certain shots. I thought that was really cool in a different way. There was still a little bit of sculpting and bulbousness and sharp sloping, but it was almost all below ground level. Really cool.
By no means does this thread have to be about what I just said, but if you want to respond, go for it. If not, post a picture of a Pete Dye course, tell a story (I'm sure a bunch of people have 'em!) about meeting or working with the man, anything. Gentlemanly criticism is certainly welcome, too.
If this thread goes well, maybe we can do similar-style threads on other architects.
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Tim,
Just played the Honors Course and felt it was among his best, even with a few flaws and even if hard as usual. But not as many water hazards.
I actually tend to play Dye courses pretty well for me, using a strategy of bailing out well away from the hazards and accepting bogey as a good score. I cannot think of too many of his courses I didn't like pretty well, and I have played all his Texas ventures, TPC and PGA West, The Golf Club, Disney (the worst Dye I played) etc.
I played Prestwick with Pete in 1995, and he told me some of those straight line ditch's were his inspiration for his long fw bunkers, along with a strong desire to do everything differently than RTJ. I also have many fond moments with Pete and Alice at ASGCA, including them asking me to dinner on the eve of me becoming President. Always willing to take time with nearly anyone. BTW, last time I talked with them, they still fly coach! Real last generation values.
This year at ASGCA, we got a nice presentation from Perry about growing up with them as a Dye. Gave more insight to how they became what they became.
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I'm not sure how many Pete Dye courses I have played but I have hit many of the big names - Casa de Campo, TPC Sawgrass, PGA West, Harbourtown, Kiawah as well as a number of lesser known courses. It is always a bit difficult to generalize but, - things I like:
Likes:
sound strategic designs, draw/fade holes, generally terrific par fives, generally wide fairways, varied fairway width, usually a nice variety of par threes
Things that I usually dislike:
Harsh slopes - many of his courses use slopes as a hazard that are artificial and brutal. I think a big reason for Fazio's appeal is that he went the opposite direction and softened the feeling of a golf course.
Artificial angles - While I like the way his 22-1/2 degree angles play, I do not like the fact that they look so artificial
His courses often seem like templates to me. Even at Teeth of the Dog, the inland holes seemed familiar.
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I enjoy the visual tricks, the "looks impossible but really isn't" aesthetic. Angles, balance and distribution of left and right bending shots.
I like to get down to Castle Rock and play Plum Creek once in awhile.... they tend to have some ridiculous specials there.
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Was it 2 years ago or 3 that Honors Course had the NCAA that Augusta State won? Anyway I saw that event and thought that the course was really tough and as Jeff B says, play from the length you can comfortably play and accept the safe bail out shot.
Perhaps to broach a sensitive subject .... how do his lesser known courses rate???
I have played 2,
- Kingsmill River Course, Williamsburg, VA past site of PGA & LPGA events. I think that the Women are going back this year. As I got to play it once for free, I really liked it .... but not for $200 plus a round.
- Pete Dye's River Course at Virginia Tech, Radford VA, on the banks of the New River. Re-do of Ault-Clark start. Something tells me that PD left nothing of the original course. Stunning views. Figure 8 routing front and back side around a bend in the river. Very very mean course, fairly cheap, access not hard on a weekday in the off football season. 7700 for the tips. I think VA Tech was and is trying to go big time golf and this a whopper of a challenge.
... I forgot VB National in Virginia Beach, VA, I need to play it some more.
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Pete's always been a favorite of mine as a designer, but since I've gotten to know him through now four interviews, I've just had as much of a great time chatting with him over iced tea or golf or wherever we've been. We watched the 72d hole and the playoff of the 2010 PGA together and then he and I and Herb Kohler marched out to the bunker where Dustin hit the ball after the tournament was over and he said "It's a bunker. I know it's a bunker because I built it." He also said "Don't hit the ball seventy yards right on the 72d hole. Nothing good happens to you when you do that."
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With Dye I think of a couple things, first and foremost:
The first is visual intimidation. This is the key that links his courses, from the highly manufactured look, to the highly manufactured but natural-looking look, to the mostly natural look. He presents hazards that look (and oftentimes are) very frightening, but successfully challenging that will be justly rewarded, and the penalty for playing away from the intimidating feature may ultimately be just as difficult as taking it on.
The second thing I think of is of course angles. I understand the complaints some people have about how so many of his courses can begin to look similar as he has perfected the angular hole, but for the typical golfer who isn't going to see 10+ Dye courses in his life, this is a really refreshing way of playing the game. There are rarely straight holes on a Dye course. There may be a hole that sits in an essentially straight corridor, but the alignment of tees, fairway, and hazards will generally make the hole play like a dogleg. That's far more interesting than what a lot of other designers present.
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One of the things I like best about all Pete Dye courses is that they're built on the ground by the man himself. There are other design/build guys of course, but Pete's been doing it forever. With input from Alice, too. Who else does that?
My exposure to his CV is limited I'm afraid. I've played Kiawah's Ocean Course twice, Kingsmill's River course about a dozen times, Virginia Beach National (former TPC course) 20–30 times and the River Course at VA Tech once.
I appreciate the way he uses angles and asks players to shape shots both ways. I've also learned that he uses visual intimidation to challenge players and that selecting the right set of tees can make the difference between a painful round and a pleasurable one.
The one criticism I have has been mentioned before. There is a sense of sameness on some of his holes, especially par-4s. It's especially noticeable at VB National, where a couple of them bend around lateral water hazards with only minor changes in the angle of approach to the greens.
I'd like to see more of his work. He certainly has an extensive catalog to explore.
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When I hear Pete or Alice Dye's name, I immediately think of people who LOVE golf and people who live for the game.
I started a thread on them awhile back...
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,45699.msg1003724.html#msg1003724 (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,45699.msg1003724.html#msg1003724)
I think in that I've said all I can say...but I did want to post on this thread because I just love them so much.
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I'm lucky enough to have met Mr. Dye a couple of times. He is a charming and humorous gentleman. One night I was tagging along on a site visit when he and Tim Liddy were re-doing the River Course at Kingsmill. I was only the resort's Woods Course Superintendent at the time, so I just listened and soaked everything in. That night Mr. Dye said he had something for me. I anxiously ran over to see what it was. He handed me an empty drink bottle. Yep, I was gulliable. Fortunately I was able to return the favor when he asked if there was a restroom he could use. I gave the drink bottle back to him.
When I played the Ocean Course, I admired how some tees were exposed to the wind and others were not, and then the green complexes followed this suit as well. The mixture of feeling strong winds, then not feeling the wind was a pretty good mentle challange, because the wind was always there, but Mr. Dye does his best to fool you. Just like he fooled me with the drink bottle.
Bury Me in a Pot Bunker is a fun read and if i could only play Pete Dye courses the rest of my life, I would feel like I won the lottery. Over the years I think he has changed his styles. An 80's Dye course seems to have a different style than a 2000 Dye course. Mostly in bunker styles and somewhat in green sizes. The philosphy in angles seems to always be in play.
I'm so glad this thread was started. I look forward to reading what others think, too.
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One of the fly-on-the-wall highlights of my career was going to the first tournament played at the TPC of Sawgrass in 1982, and spending the last three days glued to Pete Dye just as much as I could be while he watched the pros play the course and listened to all the criticisms of the golf course. It was an amazing week where golf course architecture took center stage -- probably more than any tournament since the U.S. Open at Oakland Hills in 1951 -- and I had a pretty good seat for it. It was a different kind of spring break, but a very memorable one.
Pete probably sat at each hole for a half hour each day and watched a handful of groups go through and what happened to each shot. Eventually, someone would make birdie and he would chuckle and say "The hole's playable" and move on to the next hole. And he pegged the winning score dead on -- eight under par -- even though everyone was saying the course was unplayable and nobody would break par. [His reasoning: the par-5 holes were all 4 1/2 pars for the pros, so they ought to make 8 birdies there, and somebody would play the rest of the holes even.] Of course, Jerry Pate had to birdie the last three holes to get there [and win by five, I think].
I have said it many times, but can't say it enough -- without Mr. and Mrs. Dye I would never have gotten anywhere near where I am today. I'd have been lucky to get to design a course on my own at all. But there is nothing like learning how to do it from the ground up.
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Mike T, the content of your first paragraph calls to mind a passage in Adam Schupak's book on Deane Beman where Dye's coerced into coming up with a set of plans for TPC Sawgrass at the last minute. Beman needs them to close on the loan to finance the course. Dye apparently gets Alice to draw them.
A little while later, Beman's man, Vernon Kelly, and Dye head out to the site. They get out of the truck when Kelly realizes he's left the plans in the truck and runs back to get them. Dye sees the rolled up plans under Kelly's arm and asks what they are. Kelly tells him and Dye says put 'em back, he doesn't ever want to see them again!
Great book. Another great Sawgrass provenance story from the book comes when Dye visits Glen Abbey in a sleet storm at Beman's behest. Beman wanted Dye to see what stadium golf was all about. Dye spends no more than 15 minutes on the course, comes back into the clubhouse where Alice is waiting. She's startled to see him so soon and he just says something like, "I've seen enough. I can do better."
Great stuff!
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Mike T, the content of your first paragraph calls to mind a passage in Adam Schupak's book on Deane Beman where Dye's coerced into coming up with a set of plans for TPC Sawgrass at the last minute. Beman needs them to close on the loan to finance the course. Dye apparently gets Alice to draw them.
A little while later, Beman's man, Vernon Kelly, and Dye head out to the site. They get out of the truck when Kelly realizes he's left the plans in the truck and runs back to get them. Dye sees the rolled up plans under Kelly's arm and asks what they are. Kelly tells him and Dye says put 'em back, he doesn't ever want to see them again!
Mark:
I've heard that same story -- except I heard it about Oak Tree Golf Club, from the developer of Oak Tree, Joe Walser, when we were working on the plans for PGA West in 1984. I can't imagine that Mr. Walser stole it from something that had just recently happened at the TPC.
I also saw those plans for the TPC at Sawgrass once. They were in Bobby Weed's office when he was the superintendent there. If I recall correctly, they were drawn by a sometime-associate of Pete's named David Pfaff, whose name I'd never heard before.
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My exposure to Pete Dye is mostly from playing all the Kohler courses, as well as a visit to Pete Dye Golf Club. Like others have mentioned earlier, the use of angles is one of the biggest elements you notice. But where I was most influenced was the utilization of these angles on Par 5s.
My first Kohler visit was when I fully appreciated the amount of thinking required on Dye's par 5s. Rarely does Dye give you a simple second shot. If you are 270-300 away after your drive, so many courses simply allow you to just "bang away" and get as close as you can. However, Dye's designs usually require you to pick a specific line and also control your distance (i.e. you could often lay-up "too far" thanks to angles). Obviously, those angles lead to numerous options and strategic considerations (and not just on par 5s), which never gets old. The River Course at Blackwolf Run could be played so many ways - truly a shotmaking test from beginning to end.
The other thing that strikes me is Dye's versatility among so many terrains. In Kohler alone, he moves between waterside dunes, windswept prairie land, and river/trees. I hope to see more of his works in the coming years.
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Mike T, the content of your first paragraph calls to mind a passage in Adam Schupak's book on Deane Beman where Dye's coerced into coming up with a set of plans for TPC Sawgrass at the last minute. Beman needs them to close on the loan to finance the course. Dye apparently gets Alice to draw them.
A little while later, Beman's man, Vernon Kelly, and Dye head out to the site. They get out of the truck when Kelly realizes he's left the plans in the truck and runs back to get them. Dye sees the rolled up plans under Kelly's arm and asks what they are. Kelly tells him and Dye says put 'em back, he doesn't ever want to see them again!
Mark:
I've heard that same story -- except I heard it about Oak Tree Golf Club, from the developer of Oak Tree, Joe Walser, when we were working on the plans for PGA West in 1984. I can't imagine that Mr. Walser stole it from something that had just recently happened at the TPC.
I also saw those plans for the TPC at Sawgrass once. They were in Bobby Weed's office when he was the superintendent there. If I recall correctly, they were drawn by a sometime-associate of Pete's named David Pfaff, whose name I'd never heard before.
Tom, sounds like Dye figured out the power of the anecdote to keep the money men off his back.
In the case of TPC Sawgrass, though, it sounds like design-without-plan wasn't just marketing hokum. Kelly and Beman both are quoted as saying the design proceeded from the location of sand, which did not appear in seams but rather in irregular pockets. The sand was dug out, creating lakes, around which the holes then were designed. Pretty amazing if true.
It does make me think about Dye's quote about design being 90 percent drainage: how many other designers could have done as much with that site, either on the 90 percent or the 10 percent?
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From a neophytes perspective...it sure seems that that Pete Dye could "build"/"design" a course almost anywhere and make it challenging and a test.
With greens that are so intrically defended, I don't think one looks at "playing" a Dye course, but "testing" his game at a Dye course.
For instance at Sawgrass, while playing there, there is little sense of North or South, just one great hole after another in some Florida flat area near the Atlantic Ocean. The TPC course has no homes on it, except those on the adjacent course far out of view.
He layed it on a paper napkin that is in the clubhouse at the course.
Other courses that I'm familiar with are more fit within the framwork of a development, like Firethorn, PGA West, Carmel Valley Ranch or Oak Tree.
Then you have Straits, which is totally created with no development, got to love it!
Thanks
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I have only played one Dye, Kiawah, and I was surprised at how good it is especially given the site is rather swampy and loaded with water. Writing of the water, it is everywhere, but Dye doesn't often doesn't highlight it. I thought the up and down nature of tees and greens which adds or subtracts wind is cleverly done. There is great diversity in the 3s and 5s. What did surprise me though was the lack of a great set of 4s. I would have thought that coming from an era of the long and tough par 4 dominating the thinking of championship golf that Dye would have created something a bit more special. There is definitely a feeling of been there done that with the angles. That said, there are still a few very good two-shotters and none better than than #3.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/TOC%20AT%20KIAWAH/13April2009162.jpg?t=1242889438)
On the other hand, this hole is all the more impressive knowing that Kiawah was built to be a monster.
I kind of like what I see in Dye courses, but I can't really point to one or two that I really want to play. Does anybody else get this sense about Dye's body of work?
Ciao
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I kind of like what I see in Dye courses, but I can't really point to one or two that I really want to play. Does anybody else get this sense about Dye's body of work?
Ciao
I would like to play Kiawah and The Golf Club on the Dye list. No real interest in the Kohler resort courses. I probably should play more of his courses, but I think he will be viewed down the road as taking golf architecture in a new path from the 1950's and 60's courses that were kind of boring as a day to day "hard par, easy bogey" style of golf.
However, I feel he veered too far towards high difficulty, high maintenance courses:
(http://couturelite.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/pound-ridge-golf-club.jpg)
All of his pupils seemed to have veered aggressively away from his style. I think he makes a very interesting course for tour pros to play, but is really not much fun for average golfers, day to day. See TPC Sawgrass this week. Other than the water holes down the stretch, I can't remember more than one or two holes on the rest of the course.
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In the case of TPC Sawgrass, though, it sounds like design-without-plan wasn't just marketing hokum. Kelly and Beman both are quoted as saying the design proceeded from the location of sand, which did not appear in seams but rather in irregular pockets. The sand was dug out, creating lakes, around which the holes then were designed. Pretty amazing if true.
It does make me think about Dye's quote about design being 90 percent drainage: how many other designers could have done as much with that site, either on the 90 percent or the 10 percent?
Mark:
I don't know if any other designer could have built anything like the TPC at Sawgrass. According to Pete it took them more than a week to even get a piece of equipment onto the property, it was so low and wet. Ultimately, what Pete did was to dig a moat around the entire golf course, and put in a big pump to control the level of the water table. That way they were able to save a lot of the trees around the holes, even though the ground is only a couple of feet above sea level, and leave the fairways fairly close to natural grade.
Most similar projects in Florida take the cut from the lakes and raise up the fairways [and everything else they want grass on]. Pete put all of the dirt from the lakes into the spectator mounds so that the fairways wouldn't be above the trees.
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I have said it many times, but can't say it enough -- without Mr. and Mrs. Dye I would never have gotten anywhere near where I am today. I'd have been lucky to get to design a course on my own at all. But there is nothing like learning how to do it from the ground up.
Tom,
What are some of the design elements that you have used that have been influenced by Mr. Dye?
I noticed at PGA West that on several holes, the preferred side of the fairway was dictated by a view of the green vs a blind approach. (12th hole pictured below from left and right of fairway.) This is also a feature that you seem to use regularly in your courses - st Andrews Beach in particular). Would it be fair to conclude that this is a Dye influence in your work? Are there a few other influences in your work that you picked up from Dye?
12th hole at PGA West - approach from left centre and right centre of the fairway
(http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z17/Digby_Jeffrey/pgawest.jpg)
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One thing that struck me on my second trip 'round Debordieu yesterday was the sense of whimsy plainly inherent in a few spots. The 12th hole is a prime example. It's the shortest par 4 on the course at 363 from the tips, and where almost every hole's main in-play features stay pretty close to the ground, this one has a pretty narrow fairway with huge mounds on either side. The mounds on the left obscure the green completely, so what should be a wedge shot you're feeling good about becomes a little more complicated. Actually, it's very like a shorter version of the 3rd at Yale, now that I think of it.
I believe Dye has built other short 4s like that, requiring a kind of up-and-over blind pitch or wedge. There's one at Long Cove, right? Are there a few others? Is it a Dye template?
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I have said it many times, but can't say it enough -- without Mr. and Mrs. Dye I would never have gotten anywhere near where I am today. I'd have been lucky to get to design a course on my own at all. But there is nothing like learning how to do it from the ground up.
Tom,
What are some of the design elements that you have used that have been influenced by Mr. Dye?
I noticed at PGA West that on several holes, the preferred side of the fairway was dictated by a view of the green vs a blind approach. (12th hole pictured below from left and right of fairway.) This is also a feature that you seem to use regularly in your courses - st Andrews Beach in particular). Would it be fair to conclude that this is a Dye influence in your work? Are there a few other influences in your work that you picked up from Dye?
12th hole at PGA West - approach from left centre and right centre of the fairway
(http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z17/Digby_Jeffrey/pgawest.jpg)
David:
I actually worked on the planning of PGA West, and one of my assignments from Pete was to think about the short par-4's and the par-5's and think up ways to drive the pros crazy. In those days, before they carried four wedges, the half wedge approach gave many players fits, so Mr. Dye wanted to make the area around the 100-yard mark an unappealing spot to lay up and force the players to lay further back or to go outside their comfort zone. Leaving them a blind shot from 100 yards was one of our tricks. [Leaving them a downhill lie or a very bad angle or just putting a cross bunker at 115 yards were others.] I don't ALWAYS try to do these things to people, but I still remember the bag of tricks, and I got pretty good at designing short par-4's as a result.
The other thing I got from Pete from the planning of PGA West was to emphasize certain lengths of holes. Pete said that it was getting to the point that a medium par-4 (400 yards) was still short for a pro and really pretty long for a 15-handicap, so he tended to concentrate more of his holes between 300-360 yards on one end and 450-490 yards on the other. When I thought about it, I realized that MacKenzie had done that, too, so I've generally tried to do the same thing.
Tim:
Yes, the hole you describe from Debordieu was a Dye template, which Pete came up with in the early 1980's -- a short par-4 with a blind pitch shot. I believe he was going to make the 12th hole at the TPC the first of them, but the Commissioner didn't like the idea of a totally blind shot, so he built that hole more like the PGA West hole that David pictured. But at Long Cove, the job right after TPC [and where I first worked], the hole was really blind unless you could hit a tiny little spot on the left side of the fairway, or drive right up to the peak of the mounds. He built similar holes throughout the 1980's, at Old Marsh, Firethorn, the Dinah Shore course at Mission Hills, and several others I can't remember right now.
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I must have started and erased a reply to this it 5 times now; the problem is that I have played a wider range and number of Pete Dye golf holes than most will ever see, so I feel some obligation to write something profound.
I was raised and, after some time away, again reside not far from Pete Dye. I grew up playing his earliest works and now live on a hole of one of his most recent.
After really noodling on it for far too long, here's the one thing I'd say:
If exposure to his most noted courses and quotes from the man himself leave one with the overriding takeaway that Pete Dye is all about punishment for punisment's sake, then that's a shame.
Pete Dye clearly likes to embrace, even celebrate, the notion that his courses are not considered fair. And as Tom Doak's recollections make clear, Pete Dye has more than a bit of rascal in him, especially when the project calls for such.
But spend 10 days in Central Indiana. Play all of his courses here, both the headliners and those you might sniff away as lesser because of conditioning or age or location. Play Eagle Creek. The Fort. Sahm. The Brickyard. Woodland CC. Maple Creek. Crooked Stick. The Bridgewater. Kampen. And make sure you play them from the tees that match your abilities.
I'll wager that after your tour, you'll walk away convinced that Pete Dye loves golf and golfers, and that the courses he has built here are very fair when attacked fairly. (Which is to say that I don't think it's fair for a 12 to play tournament tees then wail and moan when he does not get unencumbered views, level lies, or preferred turf at all points.)
His legacy here will likely be very different than it is elsewhere. Outside of Crooked Stick and possibly The Brickyard, I don't know that any of his courses here were built with the notion that pros would play them. They were built for pleasure, and they deliver in spades. Most feature very wide corridors and large greens that welcome shots hit to areas but reject shots hit poorly to 'spots'.
There is great variety here:
At the higher-profile courses rich with the more characteristic Dye feist (Cooked Stick, Brickyard), you'll indeed see a lot of the bulkheading, terrain-wrestling and odd land forms that are so polarizing.
But at what are now decades old munis, you'll find early signs of genius (#10 green & all of #12 at Sahm, the way the creek comes into play at what's now called "Dye's Walk", the enthusiastic exploitation of the land at Eagle Creek).
And at the country club commissions of his later career (Woodland, Bridgewater), you'll see he's more than capable of delivering courses that make members want to walk off 18 and make a beeline for #1.
Make no mistake - I'm not saying for a moment that it's all peaches and cream. If I see another Dye par 3 that has a lake front and right and bunkers hard left of an apostrophe-shaped green, I believe I'll go TP his house after the round. And for the life of me, I don't understand the volcano bunkers at all.
But in general, I wish the folks who don't like Pete Dye courses could play 'my' Pete Dye courses.
Rather than drive me and others like me away from the game way back when (a heartbreaking theory offered in a recent SI roundtable about some of his tougher courses), Pete Dye built places that made me want to play again and again, offering measurable rewards to any strides forward my game had taken and appropriate punishment for lapses in care or caution.
I'm a fan. Thanks for the invitation to prattle on.
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Mike T, the content of your first paragraph calls to mind a passage in Adam Schupak's book on Deane Beman where Dye's coerced into coming up with a set of plans for TPC Sawgrass at the last minute. Beman needs them to close on the loan to finance the course. Dye apparently gets Alice to draw them.
A little while later, Beman's man, Vernon Kelly, and Dye head out to the site. They get out of the truck when Kelly realizes he's left the plans in the truck and runs back to get them. Dye sees the rolled up plans under Kelly's arm and asks what they are. Kelly tells him and Dye says put 'em back, he doesn't ever want to see them again!
Mark:
I've heard that same story -- except I heard it about Oak Tree Golf Club, from the developer of Oak Tree, Joe Walser, when we were working on the plans for PGA West in 1984. I can't imagine that Mr. Walser stole it from something that had just recently happened at the TPC.
I also saw those plans for the TPC at Sawgrass once. They were in Bobby Weed's office when he was the superintendent there. If I recall correctly, they were drawn by a sometime-associate of Pete's named David Pfaff, whose name I'd never heard before.
Tom,
Are you sure about this? Didn't Glen Abbey and Oak Tree open roughly at the same time? How could Pete Dye have gone to visit Glen Abbey before the construction of Oak Tree if both courses opened in 1976 (according to wikipedia)?
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Here is another prime example of the obscured view/preferred line short par 4. These pics are from a photo tour I posted of Brickyard Crossing.
(http://i887.photobucket.com/albums/ac72/mwsander/Brickyard%20Crossing/100_5522.jpg)
With the right side of the fairway protected by a bunker, one could play safer down the left side. However, this will be the resulting view of the approach...
(http://i887.photobucket.com/albums/ac72/mwsander/Brickyard%20Crossing/100_5523.jpg)
Playing down the right side of the fairway will leave this view...
(http://i887.photobucket.com/albums/ac72/mwsander/Brickyard%20Crossing/100_5524.jpg)
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Scott Sander mentioned the rascal that resides within Pete Dye. One of his rascally moves may be the inclusion of hidden bunkers behind greens where missing slightly long may appear to be safe. The ninth at Harbour Town comes to mind (no picture), and below are a couple of other examples.
(http://i887.photobucket.com/albums/ac72/mwsander/Brickyard%20Crossing/100_5570.jpg)
(http://i887.photobucket.com/albums/ac72/mwsander/Brickyard%20Crossing/100_5607.jpg)
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Growing up in Indianapolis myself, I have been similarly subjected to a ton of Pete Dye courses, and even had the good fortune to tag along with Mr. Dye on a site visit at the renovation of Woodland Country Club when I worked as part of the construction crew, and to watch him visualize, and to express in words, what the shapers should be doing, rather than look at a set of plan documents where this information was preconceived.
His most well known courses are certainly not in Indiana (Crooked Stick being the obvious example), but playing some of his earlier work, not the least of which are Maple Creek and Sahm, has always been a fun learning experience as well. The sites of these earlier works are not very inspiring, but you can see little knobs on the greens, or tie-in's to the green surrounds that really show the challenge that he prepared for players, and how knowledgeable he was about design, even at the beginning of his career.
Quite frankly, I rarely play well at Pete Dye golf courses. They don't seem to fit my eye (though of course, this is usually what he was going for!!!), but I always love the opportunity to play them.
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I'm a huge fan.
Arguably, Pete Dye is one of the most important golf architect architects of all time. Almost single-handedly, he turned the tide against three decades of indifferent and ill-conceived golf course architecture, mentoring proteges who would seize this momentum and resurrect the Golden Age of golf course design.
We are indebted to him.
Mike
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Here is another prime example of the obscured view/preferred line short par 4. These pics are from a photo tour I posted of Brickyard Crossing.
(http://i887.photobucket.com/albums/ac72/mwsander/Brickyard%20Crossing/100_5522.jpg)
With the right side of the fairway protected by a bunker, one could play safer down the left side. However, this will be the resulting view of the approach...
(http://i887.photobucket.com/albums/ac72/mwsander/Brickyard%20Crossing/100_5523.jpg)
Playing down the right side of the fairway will leave this view...
(http://i887.photobucket.com/albums/ac72/mwsander/Brickyard%20Crossing/100_5524.jpg)
I think it is a neat trick making the greenside bunker visible yet placing the bunker a good 10 or 15 yards right of the green. It seems like it would fool the player into hitting further right than they should on the approach.
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I must have started and erased a reply to this it 5 times now; the problem is that I have played a wider range and number of Pete Dye golf holes than most will ever see, so I feel some obligation to write something profound.
I was raised and, after some time away, again reside not far from Pete Dye. I grew up playing his earliest works and now live on a hole of one of his most recent.
After really noodling on it for far too long, here's the one thing I'd say:
If exposure to his most noted courses and quotes from the man himself leave one with the overriding takeaway that Pete Dye is all about punishment for punisment's sake, then that's a shame.
Pete Dye clearly likes to embrace, even celebrate, the notion that his courses are not considered fair. And as Tom Doak's recollections make clear, Pete Dye has more than a bit of rascal in him, especially when the project calls for such.
But spend 10 days in Central Indiana. Play all of his courses here, both the headliners and those you might sniff away as lesser because of conditioning or age or location. Play Eagle Creek. The Fort. Sahm. The Brickyard. Woodland CC. Maple Creek. Crooked Stick. The Bridgewater. Kampen. And make sure you play them from the tees that match your abilities.
I'll wager that after your tour, you'll walk away convinced that Pete Dye loves golf and golfers, and that the courses he has built here are very fair when attacked fairly. (Which is to say that I don't think it's fair for a 12 to play tournament tees then wail and moan when he does not get unencumbered views, level lies, or preferred turf at all points.)
His legacy here will likely be very different than it is elsewhere. Outside of Crooked Stick and possibly The Brickyard, I don't know that any of his courses here were built with the notion that pros would play them. They were built for pleasure, and they deliver in spades. Most feature very wide corridors and large greens that welcome shots hit to areas but reject shots hit poorly to 'spots'.
There is great variety here:
At the higher-profile courses rich with the more characteristic Dye feist (Cooked Stick, Brickyard), you'll indeed see a lot of the bulkheading, terrain-wrestling and odd land forms that are so polarizing.
But at what are now decades old munis, you'll find early signs of genius (#10 green & all of #12 at Sahm, the way the creek comes into play at what's now called "Dye's Walk", the enthusiastic exploitation of the land at Eagle Creek).
And at the country club commissions of his later career (Woodland, Bridgewater), you'll see he's more than capable of delivering courses that make members want to walk off 18 and make a beeline for #1.
Make no mistake - I'm not saying for a moment that it's all peaches and cream. If I see another Dye par 3 that has a lake front and right and bunkers hard left of an apostrophe-shaped green, I believe I'll go TP his house after the round. And for the life of me, I don't understand the volcano bunkers at all.
But in general, I wish the folks who don't like Pete Dye courses could play 'my' Pete Dye courses.
Rather than drive me and others like me away from the game way back when (a heartbreaking theory offered in a recent SI roundtable about some of his tougher courses), Pete Dye built places that made me want to play again and again, offering measurable rewards to any strides forward my game had taken and appropriate punishment for lapses in care or caution.
I'm a fan. Thanks for the invitation to prattle on.
Heckuva post, thanks for prattling on.
And that's coming from the one poster on this site that flat out doesn't get Pete Dye or his courses. Played two, toured a third, no real desire to see another, save maybe Casa de Campo and The Golf Club.
I wish I could find the time to take you up on your Tour Of Indy challenge, sounds like fun, particularly if you were there telling me why I'm nuts. :)
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Here is another prime example of the obscured view/preferred line short par 4. These pics are from a photo tour I posted of Brickyard Crossing.
(http://i887.photobucket.com/albums/ac72/mwsander/Brickyard%20Crossing/100_5522.jpg)
With the right side of the fairway protected by a bunker, one could play safer down the left side. However, this will be the resulting view of the approach...
(http://i887.photobucket.com/albums/ac72/mwsander/Brickyard%20Crossing/100_5523.jpg)
Playing down the right side of the fairway will leave this view...
(http://i887.photobucket.com/albums/ac72/mwsander/Brickyard%20Crossing/100_5524.jpg)
Nice, Matthew. Strantz said he learned that same element from Dye and from Raynor too. You can se elements of that at True Blue or Stonehouse or RNK.
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Just thought a touring pro's perspective would be interesting, Ernie Els on Sawgrass:
"Overall it is a real ball-strikers’ golf course. It’s not one of the longer courses we play on the PGA TOUR, but it punishes you if you make even half-a-mistake. There is so little margin for error on a lot of the holes. You need to be patient and sometimes you need to play the percentages and make par your friend. Solid golf gets you good rewards here."
Seems like PD delivered exactly what was needed, and added style and tv to the mex!
Peter
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Just thought a touring pro's perspective would be interesting, Ernie Els on Sawgrass:
"Overall it is a real ball-strikers’ golf course. It’s not one of the longer courses we play on the PGA TOUR, but it punishes you if you make even half-a-mistake. There is so little margin for error on a lot of the holes. You need to be patient and sometimes you need to play the percentages and make par your friend. Solid golf gets you good rewards here."
Seems like PD delivered exactly what was needed, and added style and tv to the mex!
Peter
One thing that really impresses me about TPC Sawgrass as a tournament venue is how it doesn't favor any part of the game. You must drive the ball well, you must hit approach shots well, you must be able to work the ball right-to-left and left-to-right, you must be able to chip and save some pars, and you must putt well. All aspects of the game are tested.
I think the past winners of the tournament reflect that. The list really encompasses every type of player, but no player has seemed to ever make it a place that they favor especially (no one has won there more than twice). Couples and Norman have won there, and Tiger and Phil too, but so did KJ Choi, Fred Funk, Craig Perks, and Justin Leonard. The best players of the age have generally been able to win there--Price, Norman, Couples, Love, Duvall, Woods, Mickelson ... but less heralded players can also claim the title if they put it all together.
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Good points Matthew.
Maybe with Sawgrass or Pete Dye design, that at the championship level, the course identifies who is playing the best as opposed to being a course that is favorable to certain players year in year out.
At Sawgrass, you have to hit precise golf shots from start to finish to win.
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Good points Matthew.
Maybe with Sawgrass or Pete Dye design, that at the championship level, the course identifies who is playing the best as opposed to being a course that is favorable to certain players year in year out.
At Sawgrass, you have to hit precise golf shots from start to finish to win.
This is really what it comes down to. At 7,200 yards it's nowhere near the longest course on tour these days. But bombers cannot just overpower it. Still, in some places length is amply rewarded.
It all starts with the greens, which are small to begin with and play smaller, due to some severe slopes that divide them into sections and some severe fall-offs. Bomb and gouge doesn't work at Sawgrass. You need to be able to control your approach. (Oh, and you can't gouge it out of a swamp.)
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Scott Sander has nailed it. Well said, thanks.
I'll add Plum Creek (if you can ignore the encircling housing) and Harbour Trees (an older private course in Noblesville) to the central Indiana Dye Tour.
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I have played 60-65 Pete Dye designs, including 55 separate Dye courses just in 2007!
They run the gamut from all the brand names, to the no names in and around Indianapolis, and I must disagree with the contention by many of you that there's a certain sameness and similarity to his work. Yes, I agree that we have all seen the short par four with the big mound hiding the green at clubs like long cove and old marsh. But one of the things I greatly admire about his designs is how diverse they are, in terms of topography, setting, and ambience.
The other thing about his career that is truly amazing is the difficult, difficult sites on which he has worked. The problems and frustrations that he and his team encountered at TPC Sawgrass, or the Pete Dye golf club, or the Ocean course after hurricane Hugo, or out at PGA West Stadium course truly sets him apart in my mind.
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I have played 60-65 Pete Dye designs, including 55 separate Dye courses just in 2007!
I must disagree with the contention by many of you that there's a certain sameness and similarity to his work.
Joel - I recognize that among all his courses there is diversity. However, in my view many characteristics are repeated often. I thnk they are all good concepts but from memory The Ocean Course, TPC Sawgrass, PGA West, The Wolf Course at Paiute, ASU Karsten, and to a lesser extent, Teeth of the Dog include the following charateristics:
1st/10th hole - 380-420 par four with a fairway hazard on one side and the green opening to the side of the hazard - TPC Sawgrass, PGA West, The Ocean Course, Teeth of the Dog, I am sure there are others
Early in each nine - short par five with angles a key to reaching
Early in each nine - a short par four with a mound or hazard
Middle of each nine - long par fours with wide fairways and draw/fade angles
Par 3, 4 and 5 in the last 3 holes. The finisher is at an an angle around a pond or other hazard that serves the same function. Often the 9th is on one side of the pond and the 18th on the other.
I like the concepts behind each of these holes, but they have been repeated often.
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Par 3, 4 and 5 in the last 3 holes. The finisher is at an an angle around a pond or other hazard that serves the same function. Often the 9th is on one side of the pond and the 18th on the other.
Some merit to this one.... in fact, I'd go further and guess that just about every Pete Dye course I've ever seen, the 16th was a par-five or long par-four, the 17th was always a dramatic par-three, and the 18th was always a long par-four with water.
There are exceptions I'm sure, but at least 90% of his most notable courses would have to finish this way.
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I've enjoyed three: the Barefoot Course and his course at University of Michigan. And i used to live on the 7th hole of Harbour Trees, one of his early private designs in Indiana.
I doubt there are many Dye designs you hear less about than Harbour Trees. It's a great family club and they're proud of the many PGA (club) pros that have grown up on the course, having pictures of them all in the clubhouse.
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For all of Dye's success in North America, I don't hear much about his designs in the other continents.
What are his best courses in Europe and Asia?
http://dyedesigns.com/golf/courses/ (http://dyedesigns.com/golf/courses/)
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That's because outside the domincan republic Pete Dye has only worked in America. Any course that bears his name outside the US or the Dominican are works of either his sons or associates.
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Par 3, 4 and 5 in the last 3 holes. The finisher is at an an angle around a pond or other hazard that serves the same function. Often the 9th is on one side of the pond and the 18th on the other.
Some merit to this one.... in fact, I'd go further and guess that just about every Pete Dye course I've ever seen, the 16th was a par-five or long par-four, the 17th was always a dramatic par-three, and the 18th was always a long par-four with water.
There are exceptions I'm sure, but at least 90% of his most notable courses would have to finish this way.
I've read somewhere that Pete said he considers the 5-3-4 to be the best finish in golf.
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That's because outside the domincan republic Pete Dye has only worked in America. Any course that bears his name outside the US or the Dominican are works of either his sons or associates.
Well, that would explain it. Thanks, Matt.
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As another Indiana native, I have played quite a number of Dye's course over the years. Like Scott, I admire most of Pete's lower profile/lower budget courses. I played Eagle Creek more than 100 times in medical training.
I think Pete pushed limits...of all sorts. Some of those risks paid off nicely. Some don't quite work. I believe he is a born risk taker.
I believe Alice is critical to his success.
I believe Pete has gotten a pass for the some of the worst use of water hazards on otherwise distinguished courses than any other architect (Whistling Straits, the Honors, Island Greens (TPC Sawgrass, PGA West).
I believe he helped spawn the new golden age (perhaps was the main impetus).
I believe most golfers find his most well known designs to be too hard and not that fun. I believe that he has been asked to create original "championship" golf more often than any modern architect.
Freeform musings...
Bart
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The ironic thing about Mr. and Mrs. Dye is that without them we wouldn't have the Doak/Hanse/C&C/etc minimalist movement.
I may not love all of the Dye's work, but there's no doubt that they're the most important golf course architects after 1950.
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That's because outside the domincan republic Pete Dye has only worked in America. Any course that bears his name outside the US or the Dominican are works of either his sons or associates.
Any idea why Pete hasn't worked outside of the US or Dominican?
As one of the greatest architects of the modern era, is this a knock on his resume?
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Any idea why Pete hasn't worked outside of the US or Dominican?
As everyone knows, Pete always wants to spend a good deal of time on each project, but doesn't necessarily "move" there, so it's more of just a travel/ logistical challenge than anything. He's left the big overseas travel to Perry, P.B., Cynthia and other associates, although he does typically visit those projects a couple of times - just not the dozens of times he typically does on his personal projects. I know recently Pete has been to Israel, Guatemala and Honduras to see the Dye projects that have recently opened in those countries though, so he does get around.
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Got to follow Pete around a remodel project one day. Member asks what is he going to do on a particluar hole. Pete wanders up to look from the tee, from far left, far right, clubhouse, etc. Tells the guy (who is really ready to leave) that he is still thinking on all the factors.
After the guy leaves, he draws what he already plans in the dirt, but tells me it gets guys off his back, and looks more impressive to make it look hard, rather than easy, to make up his mind.
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Forgot about Eagle Creek -- I played that the morning I got married!
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The ironic thing about Mr. and Mrs. Dye is that without them we wouldn't have the Doak/Hanse/C&C/etc minimalist movement.
I may not love all of the Dye's work, but there's no doubt that they're the most important golf course architects after 1950.
Dan,
The four are great architects but I don´t see the correlation at all. As already stated Dye has been a great risk taker and managed to pull most of the risk off and Pete found a gap in the market that created buzz. All the other three worked for him directly or indirectly granted and one or two of them could be credited for the minimalist movement and finding another gap but thats about as far as it goes. Was that your point?? Dye was as far from a minimalist in his peak years as they come. Maybe, Maybe..Teeth of the Dog a little bit but that was early in his career.
Last point..I think the forum in general gives Alice more credit than she deserves, which Pete always liked to ham up!
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What do you think of the design of the closing hole of TPC? (Apologies if this has been asked before.)
(http://sandhillsinsider.com/dye18.jpg)
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The thing I like best about Pete Dye is that he takes risk in course design. Some of the best courses I have played are his, as well as some of the worst. In financial terms, he has a high beta.
But you seldom see conformity or repetition in his designs. And originality is his trademark. There really is nothing that makes a course a "typical" Pete Dye course, as there is with many other modern architects.
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My only experience with Pete Dye is the Virginia Tech River Course. I played this alone (and on Memorial Day weekend--I guess it's slow after school lets out) on a beautiful day with my clubs behaving themselves. I played from the whites.
I was thrilled.
In his book "Grounds for Golf", Geoff Shackleford speaks quite a bit about "humor" as an element of design. I found the concept a little elusive until I played this course. On each and every hole, there seemed to be a feature that would make me smile and mutter "well how about that!" As once was said of Tom Doak's designs, the Va Tech course felt just as much an IQ test as a golf course.
Really magnificent.
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My only experience with Pete Dye is the Virginia Tech River Course. I played this alone (and on Memorial Day weekend--I guess it's slow after school lets out) on a beautiful day with my clubs behaving themselves. I played from the whites.
I was thrilled.
In his book "Grounds for Golf", Geoff Shackleford speaks quite a bit about "humor" as an element of design. I found the concept a little elusive until I played this course. On each and every hole, there seemed to be a feature that would make me smile and mutter "well how about that!" As once was said of Tom Doak's designs, the Va Tech course felt just as much an IQ test as a golf course.
Really magnificent.
This is SO true.
There seems to be an element of whimsy on Pete Dye courses that is missing on those designed by others. Time and again, Dye has seemed to do something a little offbeat for its own sake. I think a lot of criticism of his courses comes from a perspective such that everything constructed needs a reason for its construction. Many features of Dye courses seem to reject this notion on its face, as I do.
Really awesome discussion so far. Thanks to all who've participated!
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My only experience with Pete Dye is the Virginia Tech River Course. I played this alone (and on Memorial Day weekend--I guess it's slow after school lets out) on a beautiful day with my clubs behaving themselves. I played from the whites.
I was thrilled.
In his book "Grounds for Golf", Geoff Shackleford speaks quite a bit about "humor" as an element of design. I found the concept a little elusive until I played this course. On each and every hole, there seemed to be a feature that would make me smile and mutter "well how about that!" As once was said of Tom Doak's designs, the Va Tech course felt just as much an IQ test as a golf course.
Really magnificent.
This is SO true.
There seems to be an element of whimsy on Pete Dye courses that is missing on those designed by others. Time and again, Dye has seemed to do something a little offbeat for its own sake. I think a lot of criticism of his courses comes from a perspective such that everything constructed needs a reason for its construction. Many features of Dye courses seem to reject this notion on its face, as I do.
Really awesome discussion so far. Thanks to all who've participated!
I'm amazed at how many people hold an opinion that is the exact opposite of my experiences, admittedly after playing only 2 Dye courses.
I guess sadists can be whimsical, too... :)
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What do you think of the design of the closing hole of TPC? (Apologies if this has been asked before.)
(http://sandhillsinsider.com/dye18.jpg)
I consider it a terrific hole in terms of playing characteristics. Temptation and choice exist on every shot even though the fairway is quite narrow.
I dislike the visual of this type of hole (similar versions exist at other courses). I primarily dislike the curve on the lake because it is so uniform. It looks like something on a putt putt course rather than an experience in nature.
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How about the 1980 version?
(http://psychobunny.smugmug.com/Other/Random-Stuff/i-8TVGHcX/0/XL/TPC181980-XL.png)
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Thanks for the commentary Jason. Maybe I'm not seeing it all that well but I'm guessing the choice off the tee is whether or not you hit a tee shot which brings the trees off the fairway into play. That is, if you hit an intentionally shorter tee shot you won't get behind the trees and therefore have a clear shot to the green - if you hit a long drive that veers to the right then you'll be in the trees and probably won't have a shot to the green. But if you hit the long drive straight you have an easier approach shot. Is there more to it than that off the tee? I haven't given it a great deal of thought so I'm sure I could be missing something.
I agree with you on the shape - but its probably not fair to look at the hole from an aerial point of view. It probably looks somewhat less obviously unnatural from a ground view.
But speaking of an aerial point of view, it struck me right away that it looks like playing on the other side of the lake could be a viable and possibly even preferable option. Certainly there is more landing area. It reminds me a bit of the Lon Hinkle thing at the U.S. Open. Just a kind of whimsical idea.
(http://sandhillsinsider.com/dye18b.jpg)
Beyond that, it's a subjective thing but for me the course just looks too far from being natural. Actually, for me way too far. I'm not saying it doesn't have really interesting playability in places. It's a real test for the pros. And it is certainly a remarkable feat of engineering to have built this out of the area as it originally was. I'm talking about aesthetics - and that's personal preference, of course. A starkly manufactured and unnatural look is not what generally appeals to me. But it's good to have some of those course around, I suppose - for variety. Even though I don't find it appealing it does show very advanced thinking and creativity of Dye's part. He is extremely talented.
Well, this is commentary from someone who is not terribly familiar with his work. I've only played one of his courses as I recall. I think it's ok to get the occasional comments from someone who doesn't know a particular subject that well - just to get their visceral reactions. It can be interesting to see how those views sometimes evolve. Sometimes not.
Thanks again for your point of view Jason.
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Thanks for the commentary Jason. Maybe I'm not seeing it all that well but I'm guessing the choice off the tee is whether or not you hit a tee shot which brings the trees off the fairway into play. That is, if you hit an intentionally shorter tee shot you won't get behind the trees and therefore have a clear shot to the green - if you hit a long drive that veers to the right then you'll be in the trees and probably won't have a shot to the green. But if you hit the long drive straight you have an easier approach shot. Is there more to it than that off the tee? I haven't given it a great deal of thought so I'm sure I could be missing something.
I agree with you on the shape - but its probably not fair to look at the hole from an aerial point of view. It probably looks somewhat less obviously unnatural from a ground view.
But speaking of an aerial point of view, it struck me right away that it looks like playing on the other side of the lake could be a viable and possibly even preferable option. Certainly there is more landing area. It reminds me a bit of the Lon Hinkle thing at the U.S. Open. Just a kind of whimsical idea.
(http://sandhillsinsider.com/dye18b.jpg)
Beyond that, it's a subjective thing but for me the course just looks too far from being natural. Actually, for me way too far. I'm not saying it doesn't have really interesting playability in places. It's a real test for the pros. And it is certainly a remarkable feat of engineering to have built this out of the area as it originally was. I'm talking about aesthetics - and that's personal preference, of course. A starkly manufactured and unnatural look is not what generally appeals to me. But it's good to have some of those course around, I suppose - for variety. Even though I don't find it appealing it does show very advanced thinking and creativity of Dye's part. He is extremely talented.
Well, this is commentary from someone who is not terribly familiar with his work. I've only played one of his courses as I recall. I think it's ok to get the occasional comments from someone who doesn't know a particular subject that well - just to get their visceral reactions. It can be interesting to see how those views sometimes evolve. Sometimes not.
Thanks again for your point of view Jason.
Only problem with that line towards the 9th hole is that in the landing zone you point to it is not even close to being flat. That landing zone is in the hills and mounds.
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I'm amazed at how many people hold an opinion that is the exact opposite of my experiences, admittedly after playing only 2 Dye courses.
George, I am with you on this one. Much of the commentary on this thread and others that I have read over the years leaves me convinced that I am instantly transported to an alternative universe when I step onto a Pete Dye designed course. I often can not reconcile what I see with what others see. I have chosen to look at that disconnect as a positive reminder of the beauty of divergent thought with respect to golf course architecture.
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Merits aside, reflections on the River Course at Virginia Tech should recall that Pete Dye didn't actually design the course; he rebuilt the greens and rerouted two holes five or six years after it opened. The general layout was preserved (though other changes, like tree removal, were part of Mr. Dye's work). The course really isn't a Pete Dye golf course, in spite of its owner's relentless efforts to advertise otherwise.
WW
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Thanks for the thread Tim. This was an interesting discussion.
Chris - aside from the countour the rough is nasty. I don't think anyone would choose to go a Hinkle route on 18.
As to the options - One needs to decide on a distance and line and the advantage of hitting driver on an aggressive line is huge - probably two yards for every extra yard of carry in the fairway because of the angle. The shot from the right rough is extremely difficult so the smart play for most of us would probably be to leave it short of the green but few of us would do so.
Kuchar hit the bailout iron tee shot today and had 220 yards to the pin. That is a tough shot for anyone to hit the green from that distance with water looming so close.
While I agree with your comment on how artificial Dye courses look you have to be careful not to paint with too broad of a brush because there are many that look pretty natural. Des Moines Country Club is an example of an early Dye course. It is a 36 hole complex and I always thought it was an artificial looking course that was a bit goofy but good fun. For the US Senior Open in the late 90's they played the original 18 holes which consists of portions of the North and South courses. I played it the day after the tournament and was surprised at how natural that 18 felt by comparison to either of the individual 18's. The back 9 at Big Fish and all 18 at Harbortown are other examples of courses that feel quite natural.