Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Scott Warren on May 03, 2012, 07:00:43 AM
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A year ago, the 2nd hole at Bonnie Doon was a nondescript short par four played over fine land for a 280m (308-yard) hole, but with none of the features that make many holes of that length among the most interesting, challenging and memorable holes in golf.
The bunkering was symmetrical at both fairway and green, the putting surface itself was small, steep and offered equal penalty at either side and the most interesting natural feature of the land -- a steep ridge around 210m (230 yards) from the tee -- wasn't used to create interest.
It was a fair representation of the course course at large in its unimaginative use of great terrain and sandy soil with little or no reward for smart or brave placement of the ball off the tee or into the green.
When the club committed to a complete redesign by Ogilvy Clayton Design's team of Mike Clayton, Mike Cocking and Ashley Mead, this hole was among the first group overhauled. In its completed state -- unveiled to the membership as the new 12th on Tuesday, May 1 -- it still speaks for the rest of the course, but now shows what was always possible on such an excellent site and is representative of the excitement of OCD's work.
The 12th at Bonnie Doon
The heart of what makes this hole great is fairly difficult to photograph, being an area of short grass in the centre of the fairway about 180m from the tee. That knob separates a higher left-hand side and lower right-hand side, with the narrower and flatter left offering a plain view, flat wedge to the green, while the much more ample right leaves an uphill, blind approach over two sets of bunkers across the slope of the green.
There's also the option to try to drive the ball either over or between the bunkers cut into the previously un-utilised ridge, and to certain pins (such as that pictured in the most recent pictures below), driving over the left-hand fairway bunker would appear to be a real advantage.
Downwind it will also be possible for many to drive the green. That may well yield an eagle or two, but having tried out a lot of the greenside recoveries and bunker shots, there'll be no shortage of people who drive it near the green and make bogey.
The green has plenty of movement and suits the bold land, but stops short of craziness. Most interestingly, the best miss will vary based on pin position, as will the prime spot for a birdie putt.
I'm exceptionally excited to get to know this hole and its secrets as the months and years unfold.
Below is a selection of pictures illustrating the journey this hole has taken from May 2011 and May 2012.
The drive
(http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/9858/56693593.jpg)
(http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/1078/35120322.jpg)
(http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/3991/54009698.jpg)
~100m approach from the less favourable right-hand side "lay-up"
(http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/6118/99112130.jpg)
(http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/7483/40799063.jpg)
(http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/5056/23909797.jpg)
(http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/4483/89356179.jpg)
~100m approach from the prime left-hand "lay-up"
(http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/8895/43815203.jpg)
(http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/4936/75779027.jpg)
(http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/8156/75149775.jpg)
From short-right of the green where a brave drive will open up the full surface
(http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/2120/98491816.jpg)
The green from behind and to the right
(http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/6804/40348403.jpg)
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Scott,
Looks incredible!!!
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Looks fantastic.
Scott, it looks quite open to the right of the green. Is it similar on the left (behind the trees in pic 2)? If you take driver and pull it, is there any danger?
If you can comfortably clear the fairway bunkers, is there any reason not to take driver? Will the direction of the breeze be the determining factor?
The old hole had OB left and trees right, which was enough to force a lay up for me.
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Adam,
The right-hand side of the green transitions into the 9th fairway, so there is a good amount of room to miss there and still be on short grass, but the approach from over there is blind and to a green sloping away from you.
Left of the green there is much less fairway, with fescue rough covering the hill that separates it from the 14th (the new par five on the tip). If you scroll up to the final left-hand approach pics I posted, you can see where the fairway cut ends and the long stuff begins. That will become clearer as the fescue rough grows and adds some contrast.
The wind will dictate tee shot strategy for many. Into any wind I wouldn't consider hitting driver (I carry it about 210m in neutral conditions), but the hole sets up so nicely to many sections of the green from the LHS lay-up that I might even consider that downwind (laying up with a 5i).
As I suggested above, I think with a pin close to the front and tucked behind the bunker, if you can drive it over the LHS fairway bunker, that will be the best play for many.
Another great feature of the hole not mentioned in the OP is that it plays brilliantly for the weaker players as well. I stood on Wednesday before I played and watched a few groups go through and the older guys were happily bunting a running fairway wood from halfway down the hill, between the fairway bunkers and leaving the ball short left of the green in two shots where you or I might be hoping to get in one shot, and by the looks of it, enjoying the options and interest of the hole no less.
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Cheers Scott.
So the long fescue rough will be the main deterrent then. It certainly looks like there is more incentive to pull the big dog compared with the old hole.
The sand waste featured in the last picture - will that remain as is, or be planted with native grass?
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Definitely more temptation to pull driver now. The main deterrent IMO will be getting a dodgy angle for a 50m pitch, but the bunkers and fescue all play their part as well.
With some pins (right and back), the greenfront bunkers will actually be a pretty good place to hit it, to other pins (anywhere left) that will be dead.
That sandy area in the final pic will all be fescue, which is in the process of growing in (slowly!).
That final pic also shows decently the separate left-hand fairway short of the 14th green, which transitions into the 12th green.
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Scott, will the new course have a similar feel to the new Lakes? That would be no bad thing.
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Some of the greens are reminiscent of The Lakes, both internally and in the recoveries (ie. missing the new 14th long or right leaves the kind of recoveries you might have missing the 2nd at The Lakes in the same place) and the focus on smart placement that varies with the pin position underpins the holes in the same way, but the key differences are:
1. Couch fairways at BD vs kikuyu at TL.
2. No sandy wastes at BD (what's visible now is fescue areas still growing in).
3. No water hazards anywhere at BD.
4. Much more undulating land at BD (most of the course is like 12-13 at TL).
5. No pig's face at BD.
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Scott,
Not really much I can add about your hole description - very thorough! How did you play it by the way?
The photos can be a bit decieving as they make it look like there is a legitimate shot long and right of the green but its not really. Its a big hit to fly the bunkers and you don't want to be in them - or the heath that will eventually surround them. The gap is on the edge of aiming for - 18m / 20 yards. From the bottom of the hill on the right you can't see anything, and when we did put a flag in on the right during growin it was surprising that from just short of the green side bunkers (over the big ones) you can only see the top of the flag.
The course is still fairly raw and at the moment the obvious comparison is with the Lakes. But in time this won't be such an issue. One of the characteristics of the course we want as a theme is the vegetation - which is very similar to the sand belt down here in melbourne. We have a lot of plants to go in over the next few months which we hope will give the course more of a sand belt / heathland quality. On this hole for instance there will be a decent amount of heath going into the bunker cluster on the right, left of the left fairway bunker and behind the green in the hill. The sand in the background of the last picture will also end up being less visible, in amongst the native grasses (which are still fairly small) and the heathland plants.
The greens have more internal contour than the Lakes which generally feature larger rolls and spines tying into the surrounds and flatter areas between (if this makes sense!). There are a few greens between the two which will look similar but theres no greens like the new 10th or 9th at the Lakes.
Mike
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Mike,
I agree it's a surprise how little you can see from between the two clusters of bunkers on the RHS. For a good player who trusts their half-wedge yardages, it could still prove to be an alright place from which to go at a back centre pin, with the backstop slope helping, but not as good as being to the left and having slightly less help from the slope but a much better look at the green.
Three plays so far, all to the pin position in the pictures.
1: blocked a 4i to the far right of the fairway and had about 90m up and over both clusters of bunkers (that's my ball in the most recent RHS lay-up pic). Intimidating shot, left it short in the bunkers, which was a ridiculously hard recovery with the green running away from you where the pin was cut.
2. hit a 5i into the ideal slot down the left beside the central knob. Much, much easier with the green both visible and at the same level as you're hitting from. Wedge just over the pin and left, which is a great little uphill putt to that front pin, though the ridge you guys built that runs from left of the greenside bunker up into the centre of the green makes any putt from that side just a bit more difficult.
3. 5i to the slot again, wedge long and right of the pin, about 2m off the green. With the greens still on the slow (and soft) side that's not such a hard chip, but as they firm up and get faster, I'm not sure it will be so much fun -- but still decent as the green fairly well feeds to that pin position from back there.
A braver playing partner hit driver and ended up short left of the green (exactly where he is standing in black with bag on trolley in the third pic from the bottom) and it wasn't too tough a chip and run to that pin for a birdie for him.
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Mike:
I was thinking, while I played an evening loop, about what you said re: the surprising blindness short right between the bunkers and snapped this to illustrate it.
(http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/9688/img0668q.jpg)
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Scott,
Had a hit at the doon today, was very impressed with the new holes.
The undulation in the greens is nice and bold and makes for fun golf.
A front left (east side) pin on #14 could make for some interesting putting/short game, maybe a chip off the green surface over the bunker to the other side! ! I'm assuming the front left is pinnacle? ?
Spoke to a few members, young/old/male/female and all were very happy with it.
How cool is the short game area, almost missed my tee time! !
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Greg,
You should have let me know you'd be there -- I was out there showing GCAer Ben Attwood around. We played 18 in the comp and then played the new holes until it was pitch black -- the third time since the new holes opened that only darkness has succeeded in making me go home from the course!
That 14th green has a heap of great pin positions and front left would really bring the separate LHS fairway into calculations -- haven't seen it pinned there yet.
Short game area is unreal. Lots of fun.
I'm interested to hear how you and your playing partners tackled #s 12 and 14 with that strong wind helping on the former and hurting on the latter.
Any time you fancy a game in future, just drop me a line.
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Scott
I will get in touch next time I have a chance to get out there.
The wind was definitely a huge factor out there yesterday, as are the firm conditions, its good to see the ball bounding off the firm surfaces. I played in a two in the comp with my old man.
With regard to #12, both took driver off the tee, old man knocked in between the bunkers into a good spot about 20m in front of the right side of the left bunker, he hit a fat wedge to the front of the green, then made a good 2 putt to that back right pin. I think I would normally hit mid iron down the left in still conditions, but the downwind was too tempting... so I hit driver, pitched it just over the left side of the greenside bunker and it rolled up to a foot behind the pin !! I couldn't see it from the tee, but it must have been close to going in. Needless to say I was stoked with the tap in eagle.
A note on #13, I just wonder if they considered lowering the dune in front of the tee just slightly, because with the contour in and around the green its so cool to watch the ball track around once it has landed. I'm guessing they will be reinstating esbs on the dune as as well in due course. Just a thought...
I can't really say too much about #14, except that its a pretty tough tee shot into the wind (hooked mine into the rubbish left, made double). I'd be interested to see how many players would consider playing to the left fairway near the green, its doesnt look really wide but I need some more plays to have a crack at it. I would think any pin on the left there will play really tough, especially for players who are approaching with low trajectory.
Just on a side note, myself and my dad were pleasantly surprised by the postivitey of the members that we spoke to, so a big tick to the designers. My dad is the vice president down at Port Kembla GC and he regularly fields concerns from members (mostly elderly) about the undulation in the new greens there (they have built 13 new James Wilcher designed greens there over there last few years). I should say the greensite design and undulation at the doon is much bolder and there is no comparison in the overall quality. It was just interesting to see excited faces !!
Bring on the rest of the renovation I'd say.
GT
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Greg,
We couldn't lower that dune at 13 - which is a pity because it would be more fun if you could see what the ball was doing on the green as it bounced and ran.
The next hole looked like it might be fun as a long four off the forward tees = perhaps worth a try every now and then.
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Mike,
I thought that might be the case with #13.
#14 as a long four we be interesting (would be tough into the 20-25knot wind we had yesterday!), the way you guys have done the greensite it sets up good for a running shot especially on the high (east) side. Definitely worth trying out.
You must be happy with how the greens have come up, they are really fun to play.
When they get the esbs up and going I think it will be something special for sure.
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Greg,
I think the greens we have done so far have turned out really well - and the old green were pretty dull and disappointing. When all are done they will transform the course.
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Guys, why the right hand fairway bunker?
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Michael - do you mean on #13 or #14 - I assume the latter?
We decided to build a huge dune (approx. 8 metres of fill) way over on the right to help balance with the hill on the left which the 13th tee sits on. Without the hill, it felt as though your gaze would be drawn out towards east lakes too much - especially since the diagonal ridge runs out in that direction too. In the end we thought it would look pretty cool as a big sandy blow rather than a vegetated hill. Its been a nightmare to try and establish but by spring it should be looking quite good.
It was never built as a legitimate fairway bunker - although it does come into play when (if) the forward tee is used which makes for a pretty nice long four as mike mentioned.
Mike.
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Scott
Good thread. The 12th is my favorite hole on the new course. In fact I have 6 favorite holes! ;D
Mike Clayton/Mike Cocking
It is absolutely incredible the transformation that you two have done with Bonnie Doon so far. I am extremely excited for the rest of the course to happen, but it is a shame that it is probably a few more years before it's all done.
With regards to the 12th, it is a real placement hole. You can go for it if you please, but you really have to make sure you don't short side yourself. On the weekend, I hit my drive just a few metres short of the green, in front of the bunkers. The pin was back right and I had nearly no chance to get the ball near the hole. I tried to play a shot off the backboard over the green, but unfortunately it help up there because the turf isn't firm enough yet. Had the turf been a bit firmer, the ball probably would have rolled back to within 5-6 feet.
I have to say what makes the new holes on Bonnie Doon tick, is the variety and playability in all conditions. The contours on all the greens are PERFECT. You can get to any pin on every green, and if you place your ball in the wrong section of the green, a 2 putt is never out of the question, 3 putts likely.
MC's
Do you think the rest of the planned course will be as solid as these first 6/7 new holes?
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Michael,
Agree with all the above, but don't forget Ashley Mead in that deluge of praise!
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Mike,
The rest should be as good - the land is the same and there is a lot to work with. It will be more difficult over the road but losing the 16th will help to free up some space.
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Mike,
I was actually referring to the short four, the 13th. I wonder whether the gap is too tight (and far) for driver, and if the right bunker was removed players would have a more legitimate option (only to then bring the next bunker more in play).
MG
PS I think the one on the right of the 14th is cool.
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Goldy,
The short four you refer to -- the subject of this thread -- is the 12th (13th is a long, semi-blind par three).
The RHS fairway bunkers transition into the bunkering for the par five 9th hole, which isn't really visible in the pics.
IMO with the width this hole presents, those bunkers play a valuable role in the risk/reward decision of hitting driver.
The gap between the LHS and RHS fairway bunkers (see pic below) is about 20m, so enough for a skillful player to run it through if they desire, and the lay-up fairway width is about 60m. There's enormous room for a lay-up, with the LHS a superior option to the RHS, but those bunkers necessitate precision if you elect to take the bold play.
Keep in mind it's only 265m to the front of the green from the back tee, playing slightly downhill.
View of the gap between the fairway bunkers:
(http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/8156/75149775.jpg)
Most of the lay-up area to the right is hidden from view on the tee. It's extremely wide.
(http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/3991/54009698.jpg)
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Scott, excuse my mistaking the hole numbers I am still getting my head around the order after the indecision around flipping the nines. Last night I only had a cursory look at the thread (after a veritable golfing bender).
I just remember standing on that tee thinking to myself that I'd lay up 95/100 times. Compare that to a hole like 13 Lahinch which every time throws you into a spiral of doubt as to whether you are, indeed, making the right play.
How far forward are the members tees on 12?
M
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Michael,
Understood on the hole numbering. Members are taking some time to get used to it too.
Looking at the hole before it opened, I felt the same way.
The old hole - same tee and green sites - I only ever hit driver once, in an ambrose/scramble.
But this hole is much more tempting, due to the increased width and short grass near the green, though the bunkers and green contours defend the hole admirably if placement and execution aren't precise.
Members tee is maybe 10m in front of the plates.
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Greg,
You should have let me know you'd be there -- I was out there showing GCAer Ben Attwood around. We played 18 in the comp and then played the new holes until it was pitch black -- the third time since the new holes opened that only darkness has succeeded in making me go home from the course!
That 14th green has a heap of great pin positions and front left would really bring the separate LHS fairway into calculations -- haven't seen it pinned there yet.
Short game area is unreal. Lots of fun.
I'm interested to hear how you and your playing partners tackled #s 12 and 14 with that strong wind helping on the former and hurting on the latter.
Any time you fancy a game in future, just drop me a line.
Thanks again Scott for a superb day. You know you have a winner of a course when only the light forces you into the 19th. The excitement of deciding to go again and have one more try at getting those holes right was memorable.
It was really cool comparing the new holes with those that have yet to be re-designed. It's the same land but the holes played completely differently. The main difference was definitely the fun factor. With this hole, the 12th, you could see there was so much choice. As it was downwind it meant going for the green was the only choice off the tee but because you could miss it in a number of places it meant for fun rather than fear. Despite this the hole was far from a push over as the green defended itself well. I came up just short of the green on 3 goes at driving it. From there and with the pin at the back one could realistically hit just about every club in the bag to try and get it close. That was cool. It also balances very well with the tough 10th.
A couple of other thoughts: 11, 13 and 15 are excellent one shotters and a big strength of the back 9. All different lengths and all playing at different directions to the wind, I think they'll be a real highlight of the course. 14 was a strong hole, but I'm not convinced that the left fairway is big enough or advantageous enough to be in play. The green is awesome and, like the other new greens, dramatic but with multiple options for pin placements. If the rest of the course plays like the redesigns the members will have a course that is heaps of fun but still a good test. I can't wait to come back one day when it's finished.
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The rough is really starting to grow in and burn out.
(http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/9963/20121111065458.jpg)
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The rough is really starting to grow in and burn out.
(http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/9963/20121111065458.jpg)
Scott,
Wow - the hole has really grown in very well and looks very much like a hole from the Golden Age of Golf Design!
Hope to play this one day with 2 balls of the tee one with a driver and another with a 7 iron!
Cheers
Ben
(PS your boys got a right drubbing from the French 2nd team!)
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Looking really good, yet another reason to head back down under.
How are the rest of the new holes coming along?
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Great stuff...I really feel we need more of this, I find it the most interesting! Congrats, looking good aut to be in hollywood!
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Scott,
The work here will make for an interesting comparison with The Australian. I am looking forward to seeing both when I'm up for The Open in a few weeks.
How is the rest of it?
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The rough is taking its time in a few places, but if we have a good summer then come March it should be really something to behold.
14th fairway has been much drier since the extra drainage went in.
Most of the kikuyu eradicated now as well... just have to keep it out now.
Let me know when you are up.
Really enjoying the 9th now it is open. Great hole.
Took lots of pics today, will post soon.
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Scott,
Thanks - I will be there the Tuesday of The Australian Open. Probably in the morning.
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Scott,
Great thread and wonderful disucssion of the hole. Thank you.
Mike, Mike and not Mike (Ashley)
I really like the hole and would love to have a crack at it.
I also love the opening up of the property.
Well done.
One question ... no agenda, just pure curiosity
Is the fescue and addition of native plants intended to create areas similar to Royal Melbourne and Kingston Heath?
I loved the fact that so many native species have been preserved and encouraged on those properties.
Or is this more an accent and something intended to be a little more sparse?
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Hi Ian,
Thanks for the kind words.
The property has a few pockets of excellent vegetation. It's known as eastern suburbs banksia scrub (ESBS) and it's awfully similar to the heathlands plants on the sand belt. This is really where the inspiration for the ultimate look and feel of the course came from. A kind of heathland come sand belt style course in Sydney - which it doesn't have.
The new plantings are concentrated around the bunkers (such as those on the 12th), some of the tee carries and some other interesting ground movement such as the ridge and big hill on the 14th.
All areas (around 4ha) were initially sown with native grass but the results werent as we'd hoped so we ended up then oversowing with fescue into many areas. Most areas have ended up a pleasant mix of the two. The intention is that everything off the fairways stays unirrigated and only mown where necessary rather than having large expanses of 'maintained rough'. Being unirrigation we hope that they naturally thin out with the warmer weather and only need very occasional cropping in the winter months.
In the short term the combination of the fescue and native grasses will give the holes a nice feel and a good contrast with the closely mown areas. As time goes on and the plants start to mature we hope that many areas start to take on a similar look and feel to the parts of the Heath, Victoria and Royal Melbourne.
Mike.