Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Mark Saltzman on April 12, 2012, 05:48:26 PM
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Pinehurst No. 2
Pinehurst, North Carolina, United States
Architects: Donald Ross (1907); Jack Nicklaus (1986); Rees Jones (1997); Bill Coore & Ben Crenshaw [Restoration] (2011)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/ScreenShot2012-04-12atThursdayApril12201251722PM.png)
Scorecard Information
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/ScreenShot2012-04-12atThursdayApril12201251702PM.png)
The Routing - NB: this is pre-restoration
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/ScreenShot2012-04-12atThursdayApril12201252235PM.png)
All Yardages and Photos from Blue Tees unless otherwise indicated.
Hole 1: Par 4, 391 Yards
2008 Aerial:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Hole1before.png)
2011 Aerial:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Hole1.png)
To anyone that has played Pinehurst No. 2 prior to the restoration, it is amazing to see the transformation. The tee shot at the first was previously one that required little thought, but a very accurate tee ball to find the strip of fairway guarded by rough on each side.
The tee shot at 1st is now very much a gentle handshake, with lots of width. Firm and fast conditioning means that less than driver off the 1st tee is a reasonable option even for the shorter-hitter.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150105.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150106.jpg)
The view from a tee shot that lays back from all of the natural area down the left (about 150 yards out). From here one gets their first good look at the natural area, which seamlessly meshes with the fairway. No rough here to slow down an errant shot before it finds the native.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150109.jpg)
As the golfer gets nearer the 1st green, the width of the DZ becomes narrower. Few golfers will choose to drive the ball past this location (120 yards from the green), which would require the golfer challenge the natural area on both sides.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Pinehurst2-1approach.jpg)
Only the brave or the stupid will drive to this point just steps from the natural area and 70 yards from the putting surface.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150113.jpg)
A first look at one of the famed turtlebacked (reverse-saucer) greens at Pinehurst no. 2. While the tee shot may have been simple, hitting the green is not. A green that lays at a diagonal to the fairway, with a false-front and two-edges that bleed into green-side bunkering. While the green side bunkers look like bad spots to be, missing long or right and having to play down the slope of the green, is much worse.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150114.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150115.jpg)
Shots missed long or right will find these collection areas. Recovery from here is near impossible and chipping off the front or side of the green is just as like as having the ball return to one's feet. So much for a gentle handshake.
Green from right:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150116copy.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150118.jpg)
Green from 2nd Tee:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150119a.jpg)
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A nice opening hole, with enough subtle movement to elicit different opinions on how to play the tee shot. At least that was my observation from hearing both the starter and the caddies view. Which were different my own.
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I will be playing here in June. Looking forward to this tour!
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A nice opening hole, with enough subtle movement to elicit different opinions on how to play the tee shot. At least that was my observation from hearing both the starter and the caddies view. Which were different my own.
And what was your opinion, Mr Clayman?
For mine, I think this is an exceptional golf hole.
Ross traps the left, just begging the golfer to take the safe route down the right, but the approach from there is so darned hard.
And then the green is guarded by a deep bunker on the less, again begging the golfer to miss right. But the recovery from the fairway area right of the green is many times more difficult than recovering from the bunker, which plays into the slope of the green.
Such simple strategic design, but it is so effective.
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Is it just me, or does that hole look super easy? Not complaining, but at only 391 yards with wide fairway and not a whole lot of trouble around the green, it doesn't look like it matters what the strategy is. Should be a hybrid and a wedge, right?
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Is it just me, or does that hole look super easy?
Look and play are 2 different things.
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Nice work
Why didn't you list all the architects who have worked on #2?
Cheers
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I recall really liking that green. It's a bit of a wake-up call for what is at first glance a seemingly innocuous opener.
Mark, thank god for digital photography. Imagine if you had to buy, load and develop film for all the shots you've taken in the past year!
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Is it just me, or does that hole look super easy? Not complaining, but at only 391 yards with wide fairway and not a whole lot of trouble around the green, it doesn't look like it matters what the strategy is. Should be a hybrid and a wedge, right?
And that's #2 for you.
Not many holes there that look hard. Doesn't mean they aren't.
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This hole appears easy off the tee because of the amount of space in the fairway. The alignment of the green and its shape create a challenging approach. I believe that it is a good hole because the player is eased into the round and it foreshadows what lies ahead; a course that is easy to find the fairway off the tee, but places a premium on location because the course's defense is at the greens.
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Save him the trouble, Mike. List them if you know them.
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The hole is really easy....if golf is a game of hitting fairways and then hitting it on or near the green in regulation.
There are few challenging tee shots at Pinehurst #2, but the 1st green is one of the more difficult on the course to hold.
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Ryan,
I'm confused. You say the hole is really easy, but the green is one of the most difficult one the course. Are you saying the course is really easy or you being sarcastic?
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Ryan,
I'm confused. You say the hole is really easy, but the green is one of the most difficult one the course. Are you saying the course is really easy or you being sarcastic?
Read what he said again. Ryan is saying there's a whole lot more to golf than hitting a fairway and then hitting on or near the green.
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My favorite opener in golf. The perfect way to start a round.
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Is it just me, or does that hole look super easy? Not complaining, but at only 391 yards with wide fairway and not a whole lot of trouble around the green, it doesn't look like it matters what the strategy is. Should be a hybrid and a wedge, right?
And that's #2 for you.
Not many holes there that look hard. Doesn't mean they aren't.
Yep!
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Alex,
I read the post several times. Some people might believe that #2 is easy because golf is only about hitting fairways and greens and that is easy to do at Pinehurst. But, the ellipsis was a hint at sarcasm. Sarcasm can be difficult to detect in the wrtten word so I asked Ryan to clarify, instead of acting like an ass#%&@. I guess asking a question means i deserve the condescension.
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Alex,
I read the post several times. Some people might believe that #2 is easy because golf is only about hitting fairways and greens and that is easy to do at Pinehurst. But, the ellipsis was a hint at sarcasm. Sarcasm can be difficult to detect in the wrtten word so I asked Ryan to clarify, instead of acting like an ass#%&@. I guess asking a question means i deserve the condescension.
Mark,
No disrespect was meant. Ryan's earlier statement that the hole is easy had a proviso: "if golf is a game of hitting fairways and hitting the green in regulation". I didn't read it as sarcastic, but rather as an allusion to the difficulty of the hole being in the putting surface and surrounds. I often use ellipsis to convey a pause in speech or the incompletion of a thought, and that's how I interpreted it in this case. There are an infinite number of differing opinions on this site, both in literature and golf course architecture, and I was merely sharing mine.
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All that was meant was that it "appears" easy and would be such if the object of the game was to navigate the hole from tee to the general vicinity of the green.
One of the most frustrating things as a golfer is making bogey (or worse) with a sand wedge in your hand from the center of the fairway when you hit a good but not perfect shot. I can't think of many courses where that happens more often than Pinehurst. It can conceivably happen at 1, 3, 8, 12, and 13 without really doing anything wrong.
Is the first hole one of the harder holes on the course? No I'd say it's in the easier third. But it's no cakewalk, despite what it looks like. But hitting the fairway has very little bearing on the score you ultimately make.
My first play of Pinehurst #2, I split the first fairway and hit what I thought was a perfect SW that stuck about 10 feet from the hole...handed my wedge to my caddie as the ball rolled back off the front of the green. 2nd hole I hit a perfect 9i from the fairway and it landed pin high...and bounced slightly long, rolled down the hill and way off the back. 2 straight bogeys having hit 4 long shots that I felt were perfect.
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IMO it is easier with the natural sand areas restored instead of the wall to wall bermuda.....and that goes for the whole course...more fun!!!
Great pics and topic!!
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Hole 2: Par 4, 438 Yards
2008 Aerial:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Hole2Before.png)
2011 Aerial:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Hole2.png)
Another fairly wide tee shot for those willing to lay-back off the tee. The duo of bunkers down the left side protect the ideal line into the green, but can serve as aiming bunkers if the golfer is willing to leave a 200-yard approach. It is 235 to reach the first bunker and 265 to get past the second bunker.
Golfers wanting to leave a shorter approach will want to challenge the right side, but flashing in the waste area makes it very difficult to gauge the line on which fairway ends and natural area begins.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150119.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Pinehurst2-2tee.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150122.jpg)
While the approach from the right may be shorter, it is clearly the more difficult angle. From here the approach must carry the natural area that juts in front of the green...
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150125.jpg)
As the approach is played from farther left, the golfer need not carry the natural area on the second shot...
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150123.jpg)
And the approach is played to a green that lays head-on, rather than on a 45 degree angle to the fairway...
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150124.jpg)
While the green has the P2 trademark turtleback, this one is made even more difficult because of large humps on its left and right edges:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Pinehurst2-2frombehind.jpg)
The green from behind:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150127.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150127copy.jpg)
Lots of fairway grass around this green... shots missing the green can travel a long way before coming to a stop!
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150128.jpg)
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Save him the trouble, Mike. List them if you know them.
I wasn't asking him to name them, I asked why he didn't.
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Alex,
No problem.
Ryan,
You are exactly right. I had a number of shots land in good locations on the green and watched them roll right off. Yet, I never felt frustrated by the course. I believed that I could recover from almost every error or miss, especially since I wasn't forced to chop out of deep rough around each green with a wedge. I was able to choose a different shot (putt, chip, pitch, flop) depending on pin placement, ball location and my skill set on almost every hole. Instead of feeling demoralized if I couldn't execute one shot repeatedly, I tried something else.
By the way, great thread Mark.
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Save him the trouble, Mike. List them if you know them.
I wasn't asking him to name them, I asked why he didn't.
Mike, forgive my ignorance, but who are the other architects?
I believe Nicklaus did some work in the 80s and Rees Jones in the 90s, but my understanding of what is currently on the ground is Ross' work, restored by Coore & Crenshaw.
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(http://sandhillsinsider.com/2on2a.jpg)
(http://sandhillsinsider.com/22.jpg)
From the Tufts Archives
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It looks like we have threads within threads.
Mike N., I did not know that there were architects beyond Donald Ross, Bill Coore and Ben Crenshaw that were involved with Pinehurst #2. Does anyone know their names?
Mark R., I detected a wee bit of sarcasm in the ellipsis, and confirmed it when I reread the post. It seems to me that greens ought to hold well-struck shots, especially those with sand wedges. They should not run off the green or bound over it.
Ryan, sorry that you got hosed on those two greens. I'll meet you for chipping practice later!
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Hole 3: Par 4, 350 Yards
2008 Aerial:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Hole3Before.png)
2011 Aerial:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Hole3.png)
The tee shot at the 3rd will be a lay-up for most. It is about 240 yards to reach the bunker that splits the fairway width in half, and 270 yards to carry it. The bunkers up the left, while deep and penal, will help the hookers among us by catching quick hooks before they travel too far into the woods, or worse, OB.
Tee View:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Pinehurst2-3tee.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Pinehurst2-3tee2.jpg)
From Start of Fairway:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Pinehurst2-3fairway.jpg)
The ideal line into the green is from the right (here seen from the right rough). Flashing of the bunker face, combined with bunkering short of the green makes depth perception a real problem.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150134.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150135.jpg)
Approach from centre of the fairway:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Pinehurst2-3approach.jpg)
The Cross-Bunker (85 yards short of green):
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150138.jpg)
Nearly impossible to see from the fairway, this bunker extends into the centre of the fairway, 20 yards short of the green:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150139.jpg)
Green as seen from fairway:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150139copy.jpg)
Like at the 2nd, there is nothing but fairway grass long/right of the green. The slopes at the 3rd are more severe and shots that land right or long of the green will not stop until they are a very long way away. Another benign looking hole where the golfer can walk away with 6.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150139a.jpg)
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Chris B...GREAT photos. Ross greens, I'd say!
Mark S...GREAT thread. This is a course I truly love. Thanks.
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The turtle-back theory at P2~Fact or fiction? I've read stories that contradict the "turtle-back-as-a-Ross-element" at P2.
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Ross greens, I'd say!
Mac - where else have you seen greens like this designed by Ross? This "turtleback" shape being attributed to Ross seems to have been overhyped: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0HFI/is_6_56/ai_n14707636/
Pinehurst #2's greens are considered unique and the result of years of top dressing creating the rounded off edges. Most Ross courses don't have greens like this.
But, hey... never let the truth get in the way of a good story!
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I believe Nicklaus did some work in the 80s and Rees Jones in the 90s, but my understanding of what is currently on the ground is Ross' work, restored by Coore & Crenshaw.
Correct, according to this timeline of No. 2 (http://www.pinehurst.com/new/PHNo2-timeline.pdf (http://www.pinehurst.com/new/PHNo2-timeline.pdf))
1987 -- Greens on No. 2 converted from Bermuda to bent and rebuilt to USGA specifications; Jack Nicklaus is selected as design consultant. Fairways converted to Tiffway 419 II Bermuda.
1997 -- Pinehurst No. 2 reopens after a nine-month renovation, with Rees Jones as consultant. Greens are rebuilt to USGA green construction specifications and seeded with Penn G-2 bent grass, a denser bentgrass able to withstand the Sandhills summers. New tees are built for the 5th, 6th, 10th, 12th, and 18th holes; holes 2, 4, 11 and 14 are lengthened.
The timeline mentions efforts to lengthen the course after Ross' death in 1948, but does not reference the architect:
1951 -- No. 2 lengthened to 7,013 yards for the Ryder Cup Matches.
1962 -- No. 2 lengthened to 7,051 yards for the U.S. Men's Amateur Championship.
There's also no reference to architect who led the effort to change the sand/natural wire grass areas to grass:
1972 -- No. 2 greens changed from Bermuda to bent grass to accommodate year-round play. Hard sand and wire grass natural areas flanking the fairways were replaced with grass.
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Ross greens, I'd say!
Mac - where else have you seen greens like this designed by Ross? This "turtleback" shape being attributed to Ross seems to have been overhyped: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0HFI/is_6_56/ai_n14707636/
Pinehurst #2's greens are considered unique and the result of years of top dressing creating the rounded off edges. Most Ross courses don't have greens like this.
But, hey... never let the truth get in the way of a good story!
Mike...the greens Chris posted are not turtle backed at all. They look like many other Ross greens I've seen, which is why I said what I said. It is really neat to compare the photos Chris posted (I'll assume of the 2nd green) to the ones that Saltzman posted. You can kind of see the same contours, but they've been built up over time...without question.
But I'll assume the comment you made, "where else have you seen greens like this designed by Ross?" Was not focused on the photos Chris posted, but rather the stereotypical turtle/shellbacked greens associated with #2. If that was you meant, the answer is Seminole. But that is the only place I've seen similiar shellbacked Ross greens. Everywhere else has the undulations, like are pictured in Chris' photo.
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Ross greens, I'd say!
Mac - where else have you seen greens like this designed by Ross? This "turtleback" shape being attributed to Ross seems to have been overhyped: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0HFI/is_6_56/ai_n14707636/
Pinehurst #2's greens are considered unique and the result of years of top dressing creating the rounded off edges. Most Ross courses don't have greens like this.
But, hey... never let the truth get in the way of a good story!
Mike...the greens Chris posted are not turtle backed at all. They look like many other Ross greens I've seen, which is why I said what I said. It is really neat to compare the photos Chris posted (I'll assume of the 2nd green) to the ones that Saltzman posted. You can kind of see the same contours, but they've been built up over time...without question.
But I'll assume the comment you made, "where else have you seen greens like this designed by Ross?" Was not focused on the photos Chris posted, but rather the stereotypical turtle/shellbacked greens associated with #2. If that was you meant, the answer is Seminole. But that is the only place I've seen similiar shellbacked Ross greens. Everywhere else has the undulations, like are pictured in Chris' photo.
Mac
#2's greens are famous for being turtlebacked! Check out the link below. There are more photos somewhere of the incredible differences in the greens today compared to yesteryear. The originals look like Ross greens to me and a damn good and more interesting set.
Ciao
http://www.dunlopwhite.com/www.dunlopwhite.com/Restoration_and_Tree_Management_files/GAV5_PINEHURSTGREENS.pdf
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Did anyone ask Coore and Crenshaw (or Mike Davis!) if return of greens to original nature was ever part of the plan? I would guess that it would have been too much of a risk, with the twin Opens only two to three years off
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Mark, I believe I was pointing out what a great hole it is (and course) because the opinions of how to play, are not determined by the architect, but, by the individual.
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There is a green very close to the Ross home (i dont remember the no.) at Essex County that is surely turtle backed and very interesting as compared to the # 2 greens. I wondered if it were one he worked on over the years, experimenting.
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Ross greens, I'd say!
Mac - where else have you seen greens like this designed by Ross? This "turtleback" shape being attributed to Ross seems to have been overhyped: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0HFI/is_6_56/ai_n14707636/
Pinehurst #2's greens are considered unique and the result of years of top dressing creating the rounded off edges. Most Ross courses don't have greens like this.
But, hey... never let the truth get in the way of a good story!
Mike...the greens Chris posted are not turtle backed at all. They look like many other Ross greens I've seen, which is why I said what I said. It is really neat to compare the photos Chris posted (I'll assume of the 2nd green) to the ones that Saltzman posted. You can kind of see the same contours, but they've been built up over time...without question.
But I'll assume the comment you made, "where else have you seen greens like this designed by Ross?" Was not focused on the photos Chris posted, but rather the stereotypical turtle/shellbacked greens associated with #2. If that was you meant, the answer is Seminole. But that is the only place I've seen similiar shellbacked Ross greens. Everywhere else has the undulations, like are pictured in Chris' photo.
Mac
#2's greens are famous for being turtlebacked! Check out the link below. There are more photos somewhere of the incredible differences in the greens today compared to yesteryear. The originals look like Ross greens to me and a damn good and more interesting set.
Ciao
http://www.dunlopwhite.com/www.dunlopwhite.com/Restoration_and_Tree_Management_files/GAV5_PINEHURSTGREENS.pdf
Sean...
I am very familiar with #2 and I have seen that piece before. Which is why I said that Chris' pictures looked like Ross greens to me. Thanks for posting that link/piece. Again, great photos of the older greens. I especially like to look at the original sand greens. GREAT photos of those in the Tufts archives...another place to visit that makes Pinehurst extra special. They've got notes, photos, and articles on virtually every Ross course ever built.
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Great Photos Mark !!! and Chris too. Thanks for sharing, looking forward to seeing more.
Josh
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The color photo is from right before the C/C intervention - the historic photo is from 1939.
(http://sandhillsinsider.com/the3rd.jpg)
I'm guessing this photo from the No. 2 website is from the early/mid '50's.
(http://sandhillsinsider.com/3vintage.jpg)
The reason you'd really want to know what Ross did with this hole is...because he lived on it for decades. It was a very considered hole - and a very considered course. You would be hard pressed to name many courses that received such a great deal of high caliber thinking over such a long period of time. That's why it is what it is. This course is the most representative of his thinking because, as you know, he fashioned it a bit here and there for many years. In a way, the course is almost like his personal cahier.
Interestingly, with this hole you can tell by the vintage images that there does not appear to be a strong peninsula jutting out onto the fairway about 230 yards out.
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Chris, I love the look of the hole in the 1939 aerial. Not only is there no bunker narrowing the fairway, but the fairway widens significantly to the left once past the duo of fairway bunkers.
Whereas the current iteration of the hole leaves little choice but to lay-up, the 1939 iteration rewards a golfer that is aggressive (and long) by providing added width.
I wonder why C&C did not restore the added width/remove the right fairway bunker?
Could it be that the hole would then be too short/easy for the pros, as they could hit less than driver and still reach the portion of the fairway with the added width? This would still require a driver for most resort guests.
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Good post Mark.
Further proof that restorations are not always restorations, but are when it's convenient ;)
does anyone know whether sand will be hazard or through the green?
I vote all sand as hazard.
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Mark, I'm not entirely sure what he was thinking - only that it would have been highly considered since that was exactly what he was looking at from his porch for decades. I'm guessing since the second hole was such a beast and the extremely challenging fifth and sixth were coming right up that he wanted some balance. The main defense of the hole was the green with a very sharp back to front tilt. Putts not from below the hole here are entertaining to watch - even short putts. This hole (along with eight and fourteen) are the ones you really don't want to hit over. It was amusing to watch some of the not so strategic players in the tournaments try to go at flags which were near those sinister areas. Remember John Daly playing hockey behind the eighth green? Ross gives you a good place to miss it on the really hard holes but not here - because its a short iron in.
The hole would probably be too easy for a U.S. Open without that peninsula.
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Hole 4: Par 5, 507 Yards [Reportedly will play as a par-4 in the US Open]
2008 Aerial:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Hole4Before.png)
2011 Aerial:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Hole4.png)
The slope of the 4th fairway, from left-to-right is significant, though this is not so easily detected when standing on the elevated tee. It is 235 yards to carry the bunker on the left, and golfers will want to challenge it, as tee shots landing anywhere right of centre have a good chance of kicking into the fairway bunkers lining the right side of the fairway (about 250 to reach).
Tee View:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Pinehurst2-4tee2.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150147.jpg)
Once the golfer descends to the fairway from the elevated tee, he can more easily see the cant of the 4th fairway:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Pinehurst2-4fairway.jpg)
And again the slope of the fairway is obvious as seen from the low-point at the right edge of the fairway:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150150.jpg)
The green will be reachable in two for many, rendering a duo of staggered bunkers 100 yards (right) and 70 yards (left) largely out-of-play. However, golfers that miss the fairway with their tee ball have a difficult lay-up.
The 2nd shot as seen from the right fairway bunker:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150152.jpg)
Approach from 70 yards out:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150155.jpg)
Green as seen from 5th tee:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Pinehurst2-4behindgreen.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150156.jpg)
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(http://sandhillsinsider.com/4a.jpg)
(http://sandhillsinsider.com/4bb.JPG)
(http://sandhillsinsider.com/4c.jpg)
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...the answer is Seminole. But that is the only place I've seen similiar shellbacked Ross greens. Everywhere else has the undulations, like are pictured in Chris' photo.
Of course... the answer is Seminole. I keep forgetting that you have seen more great courses in 4.5 years of playing golf than most aficionados have in 45 years. Good on ya, mate!
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Hole 5: Par 4, 436 Yards
2008 Aerial:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Hole5Before.png)
2011 Aerial:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Hole5.png)
A top-shot bunker and a peak in the fairway hide the severely tilted driving zone. While the fairway has ample width, its blind nature, and knowing the difficulty of the second shot that awaits, the golfer may be tempted to eek a few extra yards out of the drive and also a missed fairway.
Missing this fairway right is bad -- the green will likely be out-of-reach.
Missing the fairway left is worse -- from this angle, and playing from the scrub, the green is basically unhittable.
View from the tee:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150159.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Pinehurst2-5tee2.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Pinehurst2-5tee.jpg)
Once the golfer crests the hill, the leftward tilt of the fairway becomes obvious. A flat area on the left side prevents will struck tee-shots from ending up in the scrub area.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150163.jpg)
Easily the most difficult approach at Pinehurst No. 2. With a huge false-front short, a menacing bunker to the left and an even deeper fall-off long-left, there is nowhere to miss [anything right of the green will be played down the slope of the green and nearly impossible]. From Ran's Review: Nothing within seven paces of the perimeter of the green allows for a cup, such is the manner in which this green slopes away on all sides.
Clever golfers will run the ball onto the green from the right-side, understanding that missing short-right is the only acceptable miss. As Johnny Miller would say, from short of the green you make 5, option 4.
Approach from the centre of the fairway:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Pinehurst2-5approach.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Pinehurst2-5approach2.jpg)
Approach from the left side of the fairway:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150167.jpg)
Approach from the scrub on the left:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150169.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150170.jpg)
From just short of green: Note the slopes that will collect balls toward the bunker.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150171.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150172.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150172a.jpg)
A couple of looks from over the green: Note the fall-off to the left of the green
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150172b.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Pinehurst2-5behindgreen.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150172c.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150172d.jpg)
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Clever golfers will run the ball onto the green from the left-side, understanding that missing short-right is the only acceptable miss. As Johnny Miller would say, from short of the green you make 5, option 4.
Mark - didn't you mean shots should be run on from the right side? Trying to run it on from the left would be next to impossible, wouldn't it?
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Mike, absolutely impossible! thanks for catching that.
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The reason it is such a tough par 4 is because...Ross designed it as a par 5.
Crenshaw said something similar about the Road Hole. And guess what these immortal holes have in common? They are both half par holes. That is the case with the 13th at Augusta, as well. It is by no means a coincidence that these paragons of design virtue have that aspect in common. That is a fact I'd take into serious consideration if I was a designer.
(http://sandhillsinsider.com/2card.jpg)
(http://sandhillsinsider.com/5a.jpg)
(http://sandhillsinsider.com/5gg.jpg)
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Mark & Chris,
Great photo journey.
With respect to the "turtleback" nature of the greens, they were that way in the early 60's, so I wonder when the transition occurred and if there was a consulting architect, and who he was ?
And, if the transition occurred in stages rather than at one time.
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Chris,
Thanks for posting that old scorecard.
Tangentally I think it's interesting that the current first hole is actually shorter than the one listed there. The "short" tee of 396 is, I believe, the current resort back tee.
The 5th is a great hole with such an exacting approach shot demand. For some reason I have a very tough time hitting this fairway. I think it's because my eyes tell me that the hole calls for a draw when in fact no such thing is necessary at all. In actuality, a fade might even be better in firm conditions to hold the canted fairway.
This is one example where the scrub/waste areas make the hole either much easier or much more difficult. Easier because a ball just missing the fairway will very likely have a good lie that you can get a fairway wood or hybrid on (versus the bermuda rough that would grab) but harder in that a shot slightly more severely missed will now roll much farther and end up in the pine trees down the hill between 4 and 5 fairways.
If I can make it through 5 and 6 at +1, I feel like I have accomplished something.
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Love the topic and the old pics, mostly because it is a course I have actually been lucky enough to play.
Just a heads up if you want to look at an aerial with the course post restoration and that is not so grainy try bing maps. This link should take you straight to it: http://binged.it/HF5QMN (http://binged.it/HF5QMN)
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Love the topic and the old pics, mostly because it is a course I have actually been lucky enough to play.
Just a heads up if you want to look at an aerial with the course post restoration and that is not so grainy try bing maps. This link should take you straight to it: http://binged.it/HF5QMN (http://binged.it/HF5QMN)
Jonathan, that's great!
First 5 holes have been updated with before and after aerials.
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Wonderful thread with stunning photographs.
Question: Without the rough will the course be a bomber's paradise during the U. S. Open?
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Nice eye Ryan. The first hole was shortened...so they could put in the members club...
There are plans for a more traditional version that blends better with the classical part.
With respect to the "turtleback" nature of the greens, they were that way in the early 60's, so I wonder when the transition occurred and if there was a consulting architect, and who he was ?
And, if the transition occurred in stages rather than at one time.
Pat, as Mac noted earlier Dunlop White did the definitive analysis of the de-evolution of the greens.
http://www.dunlopwhite.com/www.dunlopwhite.com/Restoration_and_Tree_Management_files/GAV5_PINEHURSTGREENS.pdf (http://www.dunlopwhite.com/www.dunlopwhite.com/Restoration_and_Tree_Management_files/GAV5_PINEHURSTGREENS.pdf)
Question: Without the rough will the course be a bomber's paradise during the U. S. Open?
Not exactly. They will have to contend with the random element of wire grass. It will be interesting to see how they react when their ball bounces around and ends up tangled in those areas.
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In the new aerials if you look close you can see where they put in the center line irrigation. The idea behind it (besides saving water) is to only water the fairways and avoid hitting the native areas. The edges of the fairway will be browner, harder and faster than the center that get the majority of the water.
It will allow a well-placed tee shot to stay in the fairway and one that is off line, hooking too much, or slicing too much to hit the harder faster surface and run into the native area. This is trying to make precision off the tee as important as precision on the approach shots. Obviously this is a difficult task given the green complexes.
I cannot remember the number of sprinkler heads that were removed in the restoration (Chris would know) but the number was pretty staggering.
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Jonathan, I think it went from 1100 down to 400.
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Hole 6: Par 3, 204 Yards
2008 Aerial:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Hole6Before.png)
2011 Aerial:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Hole6.png)
Probably a hole that few think of as a standout hole, but the 6th is one of the most difficult holes on the golf course. While it is a long hole, it seems innocuous from the tee, but a deep collection area short of the green and a deeper collection area over the green make up-and-downs very difficult.
Tee View:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150175.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150176.jpg)
From 50 Yards short of green: Note how everything funnels toward the low-point/collection area.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150177.jpg)
From just over back edge:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150178.jpg)
From 7th Tee: Note collection area over green.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150179.jpg)
Green. Much like the 5th green, anything near the edge of the green has no hope of staying on. Effectively a very small putting surface (and a very small target to hit from 200 yards+).
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150179a.jpg)
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(http://sandhillsinsider.com/6pcc.jpg)
From the Tufts Archives
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5 is about as tough of a green to hit as you'll ever find.
It doesn't get that much easier at 6.
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These photos and comments take me back to summer of 1982, when I played Numero Dos my only time. It was and still is a mesmerizing course.
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Hole 7: Par 4, 402 Yards
2008 Aerial:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Hole7Before.png)
2011 Aerial:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Hole7.png)
The series of bunkers on the right and a fairway that appears to fall-away and narrow to the left, creates a tremendous desire in the golfer to try and cut the corner. It's very difficult to pick the correct line and the carry quickly gets much longer as the golfer takes a more aggressive line from the tee.
It is 240 yards to carry the first bunkers on the right, 275 yards to carry the next set, and for those very few that are able to carry everything (about 290 yards), the most important number may be that it is 320 yards through the fairway.
Tee View:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Pinehurst2-7tee.jpg)
View from start of fairway:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150182.jpg)
Those not wanting the challenge the carry will do well to play as close to the scrub area as possible. The view after an ideal lay-up tee shot:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150183.jpg)
And a couple more looks at the scrub area and the approach from the right side of the fairway from about 150 yards out:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Pinehurst2-7approachright2.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Pinehurst2-7approachright.jpg)
Lots of width available for those able to carry the first set of fairway bunkers. The view from about 120 yards out in the centre of the fairway:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150187.jpg)
And for those able to take it over everything (or for those who pitched out after finding the fairway bunkers), they will have a pitch from about 70 yards that looks like this:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150188.jpg)
The bunker in the forefront of this picture is a great use of visual deception. From the left side of the fairway (the bail-out) side, this bunker looks like it is right in front of the green. From the right-side it is clear that there is plenty of turf between bunker and green.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Pinehurst2-7shortleft.jpg)
Looking at the green from back-left, it is clear that this green has more internal contouring than many at P2. A ridge runs across the green 1/3 the way back.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Pinehurst2-7frombehind.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150191.jpg)
Green from left:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150192.jpg)
Green from next hole shows a lovely tie-in to the 8th tee:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150192a.jpg)
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Does anyone think there is a weak hole on #2?
I'm looking at each of these 7 and reliving playing them and it re-occurred to me how much I enjoyed playing the course. The holes fit together within the routing like a hand and glove. The challenges build on one another perfectly. And everything seems to be perfect.
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1939
(http://sandhillsinsider.com/7pcc.jpg)
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Awesome thread and pics--thanks. If someone has some ground-level shots from just before the C&C work that could be sprinkled in--so that you would have Chris's early shots, some mid-2000 shots, Mark's pics, and the aerials--this might be the best comparison thread ever.
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Here's one:
Hole 5 Pre-Resto:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v478/foodstat/US%20Open%202005/p40.jpg)
Hole 5 Post-Resto:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Pinehurst2-5behindgreen.jpg)
Chris' Photo of Hole 5:
(http://sandhillsinsider.com/5gg.jpg)
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(http://sandhillsinsider.com/6pcc.jpg)
From the Tufts Archives
Wow! It seems as though the details of this hole are very different to today. Does anybody know why C&C didn't restore the older version?
Ciao
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Sean, I think the reason they didn't go further is because their changes to the icon were really pushing the edge of the envelope. It looks radically different and radically changing a course that is already hosting the U.S. Open was really hard for average member to digest. A lot of them (probably the majority) were not keen on the modifications. There is not a shortage of taciturn members whose chief hobby in retirement is to complain. Somewhere in the course of their personal development many of them have come to the conclusion that to be charmless is an ok way to move through life. I think you could say the attitude was one of sharp skepticism. Out and out objection was probably held in check because the members had a sense that the people advocating the change were substantive people - and they did have respect for those opinions. The changes are very well received now but there was not too much enthusiasm by the majority at the beginning. All that makes the decision to go ahead with the changes by owner Dedman and president Padgett the more impressive - really impressive. Radically changing an icon? Not something you see every day.
And so, they went so far with the changes that to radically change the greens as well would have been pushing the boundaries just too far at the time. After the course receives raves in 2014 - and it will - then they will have a mandate to go further. Hopefully that means those fabulous original Ross greens will be put back.
That is not a definitive answer - just my take on the matter.
I think the people involved in the project deserve enormous credit. Tampering with an icon is very, very sensitive territory. Luckily it turned out brilliantly. I'd say we should be enormously thankful for what happened and not be too sharp with the criticism. The overall picture will take time - and a measure of patience.
Carl, here are some pre C/C shots:
(http://sandhillsinsider.com/sunrise1/5a.jpg)
(http://sandhillsinsider.com/sunrise1/6t.jpg)
(http://sandhillsinsider.com/sunrise1/11t.jpg)
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Regarding "Is there a weak hole?" I think 16 is probably that. No real strategy to it...your normal ho-hum reachable but not risk-reward par 5, relatively speaking. (Unless it's the US Open and then it's a ball-buster par 4)
Regarding hole 7, I think this is one hole where the changes, while not as obvious as on 13 and 14, have made a tremendous improvement. The old 7 looked ripped straight out of Pinehurst #4 with it's cluster of pot bunkers and was one of the odd birds in the old layout. The new version is simply better. The dogleg is more defined and you are less subject to luck if you miss it right (i.e. you're in the scrub, versus getting a rough or bunker or lip lie)
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Thanks Mark and Chris!
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I found a very old photo of the 7th. That hole was actually straight in the early days. It's the only real dogleg on the course now which is somewhat interesting.
(http://sandhillsinsider.com/7old.jpg)
If you are particularly interested in this course then I would suggest you check out the little essay Ross wrote about it in 1935. That is essentially when he got it where he envisioned it. There is a great photo of the 7th green on there as well. You can find it on the USGA website.
You have to sign up for this section of the site but it is free:
http://architecturearchive.usgamuseum.com/ (http://architecturearchive.usgamuseum.com/)
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Ryan, I think we can say there is strategy to 16. To go for it in two you'd want to challenge the left side. That brings a serious fairway bunker into play for many players. Those that hit it super long but without a draw will find a nasty little nest of bunkers on fairway right. But Ross gives you a great deal of area short right if you don't want to be aggressive or don't hit it that long. So there are actual options on the tee shot - and you will see some pros in those penal right fairway bunkers - especially if the course is playing firm as intended. After that you'll want to think about where to lay up because laying up fairly close to the green brings what Morrissett says is the most penal bunker on the course into play. The smart place to lay up is between the center left bunker which is around 75 yards out and that intense right bunker closer to the green.
Ross wanted to challenge the best - but provide a course that almost everybody could enjoy. It's not an easy trick to do both at the same time. This hole is a good example of how that can be done.
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I remember watching the finals of the US Amateur a few years back when it was held at Pinehurst. I was interested since I've played #2.
On the 7th hole, Danny Lee's opponent (forget who it was) knocked some kind of iron or hybrid down the middle of the fairway.
Danny Lee ripped a driver to the front fringe.
The opponent knocked his wedge to about a foot away for a gimme birdie.
Lee chipped in for eagle to win the hole.
I shook my head and changed the channel.
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Ryan, I think we can say there is strategy to 16. To go for it in two you'd want to challenge the left side. That brings a serious fairway bunker into play for many players. Those that hit it super long but without a draw will find a nasty little nest of bunkers on fairway right. But Ross gives you a great deal of area short right if you don't want to be aggressive or don't hit it that long. So there are actual options on the tee shot - and you will see some pros in those penal right fairway bunkers - especially if the course is playing firm as intended. After that you'll want to think about where to lay up because laying up fairly close to the green brings what Morrissett says is the most penal bunker on the course into play. The smart place to lay up is between the center left bunker which is around 75 yards out and that intense right bunker closer to the green.
Ross wanted to challenge the best - but provide a course that almost everybody could enjoy. It's not an easy trick to do both at the same time. This hole is a good example of how that can be done.
I guess saying it's without strategy is a bit harsh. But I would probably say it's the most ordinary hole on a course of extraordinary.
...but we can talk about 16 when Mark gets there... :)
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Hole 8: Par 5, 469 Yards
2008 Aerial:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Hole8Before.png)
2011 Aerial:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Hole8.png)
A huge difference here between pre and post renovation. Note the two fairway bunkers to the right, which previous were islands in a sea of rough to the right. Now these same bunkers are just off the edge of the fairway, protecting the ideal line into the green. Also note the addition of two bunkers short/left of the green.
Like the fairway on holes 4 and 5, the fairway on the 8th is severely canted, this one from right-to-left. It is a very short par-5, but one must hug the right side with their tee shot if they hope to find the fairway. Scrub area and fairway bunkers protect the ideal line.
Tee View:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Pinehurst2-8tee.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Pinehurst2-8tee2.jpg)
From just short of fairway:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150197.jpg)
After a well-struck tee shot, most golfers will play their second from a large bowl in the fairway, between 180 and 210 yards from the green. Playing uphill, the second shot is partially blind and the intrusion of the duo of fairway bunkers short-left of the green into the fairway is very difficult to see. However, most golfers, noting the presence of the bunkers on the left, will play out to the right -- this is a big mistake on number 8.
Approach from 180:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150198.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150199.jpg)
If the golfer is forced to lay-up, he will do well to lay-up on the left side of the fairway. The approach from the right, as pictured below, plays with the slope of the green and is very difficult to control.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150200.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150201.jpg)
Following the natural flow of the land, the 8th green has quite a significant leftward tilt. Missing the green to the right leaves a nearly difficult recovery -- think missing Augusta National's 8th to the right, humps and all, and having the green slope significantly away.
Green as seen from fairway:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150202.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150202a.jpg)
From back of green:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Pinehurst2-8behind.jpg)
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Really great par 4 ;D
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1922 & 1939
(http://www.golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/8comp.jpg)
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Chris, I really like the use of the top-shot bunker on 8 (which I guess was 5 at one point?). The bunker would help to hide the cant of the fairway and only the fairway bunker on the right would give an indication of the ideal line off the tee. Nothing wrong with a bit of visual confusion on such a short par-5. Would love to see that restored.
Any other holes have this feature in their early iterations?
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The bunker carry distances listed so far seem pretty short for a US Open. The average carry distance listed for the PGA Tour is around 270. http://www.pgatour.com/r/stats/info/?02409 In the warmth of summer, I would imagine carry distances will be longer at Pinehurst.
Are the blue tees the back tees? If so, then it would seem that many fairway bunkers will not be in play for tour pros that choose to hit driver.
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Jason,
these are the blue tees, the longest set put out for resort play. There is a gold/US Open set behind them. Big difference on a few holes (and it plays to a par of 70).
2 is 60 yards longer
3 is 40 yards longer
4 is 60 yards longer
5 is 40 yards longer
6 is 20 yards longer
7 is 30 yards longer
8 is 20 yards longer
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/ScreenShot2012-04-12atThursdayApril12201251702PM.png)
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Mark, there was a similar bunker on the 7th hole (which was the 4th hole in 1922).
(http://www.golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/2course.jpg)
Photos like the one below (of the 8th) help people appreciate the expert work that was done to restore the course.
(http://www.golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/8pcc.jpg)
They, of course, did a lot of research at the Tufts Archives before the work started. Here is one of the photos (from No. 3 Course) they tried to emulate the look of. I'd say they did a fantastic job recapturing the original look of Pinehurst.
(http://www.golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/1fwCourse3.jpg)
There is a back tee on 8 which is across the sandy path on the second fairway. That is the case on the 3rd hole as well.
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Hole 9: Par 3, 176 Yards
2008 Aerial:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Hole9Before.png)
2011 Aerial:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Hole9.png)
Though the short-ish yardage would indicate that this is a birdie hole, the 9th green is one of the smallest greens on the golf course and is arguably the most well-guarded. Very deep bunkers located short-right, short-left, left, and long will penalize any shot that misses the green.
The green lays at almost a 45-degree angle to the tee, sloping generally from back-left to front-right. A severe ridge runs across the narrow 'waist' portion of the green, separating the front-right portion of the green from the back-left portion. Front-right pins are very accessible, while back-left pins located on a very small piece of green, are nearly impossible to access -- shots must carry the deep fronting bunker and stop very quickly to avoid caroming off the back of the green.
Tee View:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Pinehurst2-9tee.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Pinehurst2-9tee2.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Hole9Postcard.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Hole9old.jpg)
From Short of Green: From here it is easy to see the difference in elevation from back-left to front-right.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Pinehurst2-9fairway.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150210.jpg)
Green from Left:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150212.jpg)
Green from Back-Left:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Pinehurst2-9behind.jpg)
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Hole 10: Par 5, 580 Yards [Tees were on the White Tee Box at 455 Yards]
2008 Aerial:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Hole10Before.png)
2011 Aerial:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Hole10.png)
If someone has a current picture of the back-tee view, please post/IM me as I'd like to add it to the tour
From the back tee, the tee shot must carry a gully to reach the uphill and semi-blind fairway. OB left and waste area right make this one of the most demanding tee shots on the golf course. The fairway narrows and jogs left about 250 yards from the blue tee. The fairway bunker on the left, at 280 yards uphill to reach from the blue tee, is more about visual intimidation than anything.
View from the white tee:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150002.jpg)
From Short of Fairway:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150003.jpg)
The 10th will be a 3-shot hole for almost everyone. 3 bunkers, staggered left, then right, then left, dot the lay-up area between 200 and 100 yards short of the green.
Playing from the moved up tees, this 2nd shot is played from near the first of those 3 bunkers, just over 200 yards from the green:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150005.jpg)
From Short of Green:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150006.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150009.jpg)
And from Behind:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150010.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150011.jpg)
-
Mark, any pictures of what I remember as a very steep drop-off behind the ninth green, especially on the left side? You just can't miss long.
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Hole 11: Par 4, 453 Yards
2008 Aerial:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Hole11Before.png)
2011 Aerial:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Hole11.png)
A confusing tee shot at the 11th. Unlike the previous iteration of the hole, the current 11th has plenty of width, but the golfer is left wondering whether he is best to challenge the waste area on the right, or the single fairway bunker on the left 250 yards from the tee. The ideal line is defined by the pin location, which is cleverly located to be in clear view from the tee, though hardly a focal point for all but the most perceptive golfer.
Tee View:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150012.jpg)
From Short of the Fairway one gets a good sense of the nature of the scrub area:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150015.jpg)
Plenty of fairway width on the 11th:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150016.jpg)
A view from the right side of the fairway. Clear that the right side of the fairway is not the place to be if one wants to attack a right pin. From the left side of the fairway the golfer would have the option to run the ball onto the green and toward this pin position.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150019.jpg)
A closer look at the bunker complex that guards and hides the right side of the green:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Pinehurst2-11shortofgreen.jpg)
And a look at the bunker complex from the green side:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150022.jpg)
From short-left of the green one can see how approaches from the left can access right-side pin locations:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150021.jpg)
Green as seen from right...
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150023b.jpg)
and from behind...
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150024.jpg)
And the 11th pre-restoration (Courtesy C. Buie):
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Hole11Behind.jpg)
-
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Hole11Behind.jpg)
Would love to see a shot from this angle after the restoration...
Thanks for the tour Mark!
-
Hole 12: Par 4, 418 Yards
2008 Aerial:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Hole12Before.png)
2011 Aerial:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Hole12.png)
The aerials show the significant change that took place on the 12th. A fairway that was once a runway, with bunkers left and right floating in the rough, is now significantly widened out to the bunker edges and expanded beyond the one on the left to reward a golfer who challenges it.
It is 229 yards to get past the bunker on the left and 293 yards to reach the area where the fairway pinches to 22 yards in width. Though it may appear as though the fairway in the DZ is narrow because of some clever visual deception, there is plenty of room.
Tee View:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150026.jpg)
What is not clear from the tee is the ideal line into the green. A tee shot down the right will leave a shorter approach, but the view of the green will be blocked-out by bunkering short of the green. Approaching from the left gives the golfer a clear view of the putting surface and the opportunity to run the ball onto the green.
Approach from right:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150031.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Pinehurst2-12approachright.jpg)
Short of Green:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Pinehurst2-12shortofgreen.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Pinehurst2-12shortofgreen2.jpg)
Green from Back-Left:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Pinehurst2-12greenleft.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150031a.jpg)
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Sorry I haven't been able to properly keep up with Mark's really nice work on this thread.
Anyway, one thing that stands out to me that hasn't really been discussed too much is the trees. As you can see in the 1939 aerial it was sparse between 11 and 12. Later on it became a thick forest. Of course, predictably I would like to see that thinned out on various places on the course - all in good time. It would get a bit more air coming through and most importantly give players a chance to bend one through the trees. That brings a lot more creativity and more fun into the game. If you can hook a 165 yard shot around two trees and a through a little pine window then you deserve a par. It would incidentally make for much better TV as well. I'm not saying to cut them all down - just to thin it out in certain areas. Chopping around in a forest is for loggers not golfers.
"As beautiful as trees are, and as fond as you or I are of them, we still must not lose sight of the fact that there is a limited place for them in golf." - Donald Ross
(http://sandhillsinsider.com/12treesz.jpg)
Moving on here is the pre-restoration 11th tee - no comment needed.
(http://sandhillsinsider.com/11tz.jpg)
And here are the photos of 12 before those fabulous artists went to such lengths to render so brilliantly.
(http://sandhillsinsider.com/Par4_12thz)
(http://sandhillsinsider.com/12th_greenz.jpg)
And here is a photo of 12 during the early stages of the recent work.
(http://sandhillsinsider.com/12tz.jpg)
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Chris, your "before" photo of 12 probably makes the hole look more visually attractive than it ever was, as it is quite a bit elevated from the actual view.
One change I have noticed quite a bit is that 12 now is more of a thinking tee shot...the sand dunes pinching the fairway, even though they may be 290, sure don't look like it. It's hard to make yourself hit it to the left on this hole, knowing that the green is right and the dunes appear to be very much in play.
-
I'd say you are right on both counts Ryan. There is more playable width - but if you want to gain the advantage which distance provides (leaving a shorter shot to the green) then you'll have to challenge those tough areas. Mid iron approaches to these greens can be pretty challenging. I've seen what looked like good shots on this hole end up making those long slow slides down into collection areas. I have a really clear image of one of my own approaches to this hole doing just that.
So it is a significant advantage to have a shorter iron in. Partly your tee shot decision would depend on how straight you were hitting it that particular day - and if you were playing catch up style - aggressively. Yeah, it's an interesting hole. I've always liked it. I like the fact that the course isn't tricked up and has a natural look. I appreciate Raynor and am glad he did those great courses - but they have these angles going on that don't fit my eye as well as Ross courses. I'm not trying to bash Raynor here - he did great things which had such interesting playability - just talking about personal preferences.
Ross courses seem to blend in really well with the landscape. At least, it seems that way to me.
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Hole 13: Par 4, 375 Yards
2008 Aerial:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Hole13Before.png)
2011 Aerial:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Hole13.png)
One of the best holes on the course, a short par-4 that will have many walking away scratching their heads after making 5. There is plenty of room to play to the left off the tee, but from that angle the approach is longer and must be played over a deep bunker short-left of the green. The ideal line is from the right, but the fairway gets narrower and narrower as the tee ball gets longer. 240 yards from the tee, a deep bunker guards the inside of the dogleg. From here it is difficult to reach the green.
Tee View:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Pinehurst2-13tee.jpg)
From start of fairway:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150041.jpg)
This picture gives a good idea of the angled right side of the fairway, that causes a narrowing of the DZ the longer the shot:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150042.jpg)
Approaches played from the right side of the fairway are ideal and should take the penal green side bunkering out of play.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Pinehurst2-13approachright.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150045.jpg)
Even better, tee balls that carry the bunkers on the right will leave just a (not so simple) pitch up the hill. Not many golfers will be playing their second shots from here... Third shots are likely more common.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150046.jpg)
From short-right of green shows the depth of the bunkering and the significant false-front on the 13th green:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150054a.jpg)
Green from Right:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150050.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150049.jpg)
13th from Behind:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150052.jpg)
Looking down 13 and 14:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150054.jpg)
-
(http://sandhillsinsider.com/13tz.jpg)
(http://sandhillsinsider.com/13az.jpg)
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Hole 13: Par 4, 375 Yards
2008 Aerial:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Hole13Before.png)
2011 Aerial:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Hole13.png)
One of the best holes on the course, a short par-4 that will have many walking away scratching their heads after making 5. There is plenty of room to play to the left off the tee, but from that angle the approach is longer and must be played over a deep bunker short-left of the green. The ideal line is from the right, but the fairway gets narrower and narrower as the tee ball gets longer. 240 yards from the tee, a deep bunker guards the inside of the dogleg. From here it is difficult to reach the green.
Tee View:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Pinehurst2-13tee.jpg)
(http://sandhillsinsider.com/13tz.jpg)
I played #2 in January. The difference on this tee shot alone is amazing.
Chris, I didn't read the Dunlop White article. Do you ever foresee a move away from the current greens back to the ones shown in your photos?
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Hole 14: Par 4, 438 Yards
2008 Aerial:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Hole14Before.png)
2011 Aerial:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Hole14.png)
Along with the 4th, one of only two tee shots that plays significantly downhill. It is 240 yards from the tee to lay-up to the bunker on the left into the widest point of the fairway. It is 280 yards past the bunker.
While the single bunker on the left will have many golfers playing out to the right, perhaps the ideal tee shot is a lay-up down the left.
Tee View:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Pinehurst2-14tee.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Pinehurst2-14tee2.jpg)
From short of fairway:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Pinehurst2-14approachingfairway.jpg)
Fairway as seen from 13:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Pinehurst2-14from13.jpg)
One of the most cleverly bunkered greens I've ever seen. Deep bunkers front the green both short-left and short-right, perhaps making the golfer take an extra club to avoid them. But these bunkers are well short of the green, and all of the trouble is pin-high or long.
Approach:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150062.jpg)
As seen from short of the green, there is plenty of room over the bunkers and missing short is not a problem.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150063.jpg)
But missing left will find a collection area with a huge hump in its centre. While recoveries from here are difficult, recoveries from the very deep run-off long are almost impossible.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150065.jpg)
-
(http://sandhillsinsider.com/14tz.jpg)
-
Mark & Chris,
Great photo journey.
With respect to the "turtleback" nature of the greens, they were that way in the early 60's, so I wonder when the transition occurred and if there was a consulting architect, and who he was ?
And, if the transition occurred in stages rather than at one time.
Pat,
there is a decent article I've seen linked to by Ron Whitten about the greens. I believe Alice and Pete Dye stated the greens had so much top dressing over the years and that only the greens were top dressed. As a result they became noticeably elevated from their surrounds. Then, someone came in with a dozer and sliced these edges down; hence the current nature of the greens... which have been rebuilt in a similar manner by others.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0HFI/is_6_56/ai_n14707636/ (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0HFI/is_6_56/ai_n14707636/)
QUOTE
In 1935 the greens were like inverted paper plates, slightly raised in the center and canted in different directions for surface drainage. By the 1960s they had become inverted pie pans, and by the 1980s, inverted bowls. Not by original design, or by conscious remodeling, but by happenstance, by application after application of sand topdressing, year after year, which raised the profiles of the putting surfaces at least a foot during a period of 25 to 30 years.
Pete and Alice Dye had been away from Pinehurst for a decade when they returned in the mid-'60s, when Alice competed in the Women's North and South Amateur, an event she would win in 1968. They were startled that the greens had become "raised angel cakes."
"The greens had a sharp edge all around them," Alice recalls. "Right at the collar. If your ball would drop off, it was so steep that it would run like crazy through the bottom of a little hollow and end up on the opposite slope. So then you'd have a lot of those ghastly downhill lies, shooting back up and over those little ledges. It was horrendous. That's why Pinehurst played so tough."
...
Sometime after Diamondhead Corp. bought Pinehurst from the Tufts family in late 1970, someone on a bulldozer beveled off the steep ledges around the greens, which better tied the edges of the greens into the slopes around them. But in doing so, they carved away many front- and back-corner pin placements.
Curiously, no one recalls just when that happened, or who made the decision to do it. The best evidence is that it occurred in 1977, a year after Peter Tufts (son of Richard) agreed with Diamondhead to "restore" Pinehurst No. 2. Tufts left the project in 1977, he recalled recently, because "they took a bulldozer and ruined those greens."
"We went up there one spring," says Alice Dye, "and I looked at the greens and said, 'Pete, they've lost those edges.' You could see where they went around and sliced off that steep edge. What they did was shrink the greens. They went from about 5,000 square feet down to 4,000 or less."
END QUOTE
Difficult to imagine someone going in willy-nilly with a dozer to the greens.
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Hole 15: Par 3, 183 Yards
2008 Aerial:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/86e27015.jpg)
2011 Aerial:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/6b107bac.jpg)
A very innocuous par-3.. no scary bunkers, no OB, no hazards... but a very difficult par. The green is a plenty wide target, but the emphasis here is controlling distance. A very large false-front will send balls on the first 1/4 of the green trundling off the front. A slope at the back edge of the green will send shots just a bit long on a journey toward the 16th fairway.
Tee View:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/339a6832.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/0b97d654.jpg)
From short-right of green:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/8ce4748a.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Pinehurst2-15greenright.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/56404ae5.jpg)
From left:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/f1aa5eba.jpg)
From 16th Tee:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/c70bb4f6.jpg)
-
(http://sandhillsinsider.com/15tz.jpg)
Hmm, maybe they should go back to this look. Don't know, it's a tough call. ;)
Mark it is a sufficiently wide target, but my own personal experience from the backs when there is some wind going...it doesn't look so wide from ~200 out! That's just my experience. (This photo is taken from the front of the long tee box.)
It can be really tough getting up and down from around this green - depending on how much room you have to work with.
If the flag is in the front you have to hit a really high shot to get it to stop anywhere close. That, of course, takes a really high degree of skill. Anybody that can pull that off is a for real player.
Although you can make birdie, it is not a birdie hole - par is always a good score here.
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Hole 16: Par 5, 511 Yards
2008 Aerial:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/9d059234.jpg)
2011 Aerial:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/97443125.jpg)
Check out those aerials, what an improvement in mowing lines!!
The tee shot on the 16th is over the only water hazard on the course [it shouldn't be in play] and asks the golfer to choose his line carefully as the fairway lies at a diagonal to the tee. It is 255 yards over the entire left bunker, and a trio of bunkers lay through the fairway on the right at 280 to catch those longer hitters that do not judge the angle of the tee shot correctly.
Tee View:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/e9186af1.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/483b4dab.jpg)
After successfully finding the fairway, many golfers will have a go at this short par-5 in two. Menacing bunkering guards the right side of the green, nudging the golfer left on the approach.
Approach from 240:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/285d0dc4.jpg)
Approach from left from around 225:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/a7c9de29.jpg)
Those laying-up will play into the bottom of a small valley. Completely hidden from view from the fairway on the 2nd shot is bunker guarding the left-side of the fairway that, unlike most bunkers at P2, does not have a flashed face, thus keeping it hidden from view. The ambiguity of the lay-up shot makes it much more difficult (and interesting).
The hidden bunker:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/318e0c27.jpg)
Approach from 115:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/ddd0e553.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/79efb888.jpg)
Green from back-left:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/b8b079fa.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/d841b1ca.jpg)
Green from 17th tee:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/6b93bd7c.jpg)
-
(http://sandhillsinsider.com/16az.jpg)
Ross's approach to bunkering evolved quite a bit over time.
(http://sandhillsinsider.com/16cz.jpg)
Not sure which hole on No. 2 this is, but it is another example of how his bunker style changed over time.
(http://sandhillsinsider.com/2bunkering.jpg)
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Hole 17: Par 3, 180 Yards
2008 Aerial:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/file.jpg)
2011 Aerial:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/file-1.jpg)
Depending on pin position, the 17th can be a final opportunity to make a birdie, or the beginning of a brutally tough finish when combined with the 18th.
Interestingly, this is the only par-3 where a left-to-right tee shot is the preference. Simple design variety is very effective.
Tee View:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/file-2.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/file-3.jpg)
Short of Green:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/file-4.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/file-5.jpg)
Green from Behind:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/file-6.jpg)
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Sean, I think the reason they didn't go further is because their changes to the icon were really pushing the edge of the envelope. It looks radically different and radically changing a course that is already hosting the U.S. Open was really hard for average member to digest. A lot of them (probably the majority) were not keen on the modifications. There is not a shortage of taciturn members whose chief hobby in retirement is to complain. Somewhere in the course of their personal development many of them have come to the conclusion that to be charmless is an ok way to move through life. I think you could say the attitude was one of sharp skepticism. Out and out objection was probably held in check because the members had a sense that the people advocating the change were substantive people - and they did have respect for those opinions. The changes are very well received now but there was not too much enthusiasm by the majority at the beginning. All that makes the decision to go ahead with the changes by owner Dedman and president Padgett the more impressive - really impressive. Radically changing an icon? Not something you see every day.
And so, they went so far with the changes that to radically change the greens as well would have been pushing the boundaries just too far at the time. After the course receives raves in 2014 - and it will - then they will have a mandate to go further. Hopefully that means those fabulous original Ross greens will be put back.
That is not a definitive answer - just my take on the matter.
I think the people involved in the project deserve enormous credit. Tampering with an icon is very, very sensitive territory. Luckily it turned out brilliantly. I'd say we should be enormously thankful for what happened and not be too sharp with the criticism. The overall picture will take time - and a measure of patience.
Carl, here are some pre C/C shots:
(http://sandhillsinsider.com/sunrise1/5a.jpg)
(http://sandhillsinsider.com/sunrise1/6t.jpg)
(http://sandhillsinsider.com/sunrise1/11t.jpg)
Chris
Thank you for the response. I spose I am disappointed that this work is called a reno when the two things which always stand out in a Ross are the routing and greens. The routing is original, yet the greens are anything but. Of course, the added trees bring nothing positive to the design. In any case, a true reno....
Ciao
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(http://sandhillsinsider.com/17z.jpg)
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Hole 18: Par 4, 430 Yards
2008 Aerial:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/file-7.jpg)
2011 Aerial:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/file-8.jpg)
It's about 240 yards to carry the massive and intimidating fairway bunker on the right. Clearly the preferred line into the green is from the right alongside the fairway bunker, but bunkering short and left of the green mean that no line will have an easy approach.
Back Tee View:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/file-9.jpg)
White Tee View:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/file-10.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/file-11.jpg)
Approaches from the right must carry natural waste area 20 yards short of the green:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/file-12.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/file-13.jpg)
From Behind:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/file-14.jpg)
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Thanks for taking the time to do this--and all the other tours.
I watched the replay of the 1999 Open last night.It's like 2 completely different golf courses.
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(http://sandhillsinsider.com/18tz2.jpg)
(http://sandhillsinsider.com/18az.jpg)
A comparison with before the renovation and 1938.
(http://www.golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/18cz.jpg)
(http://www.golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/1936pga18thHoleOn2.jpg)
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Chris, thank you for the great old photos you add in! What are those dark areas in the fairway from '38? Shadows?
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A few more past vs. present hole comparisons. Old photos courtesy Chris Buie.
Hole 1
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/1t.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150106.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/1a.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Pinehurst2-1approach.jpg)
Hole 2
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/2t.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Pinehurst2-2tee.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/2a.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150125.jpg)
Hole 3
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/3t.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Pinehurst2-3tee2.jpg)
Hole 4
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/4t.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Pinehurst2-4tee2.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/4a.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/P1150155.jpg)
Hole 8
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/8t.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Pinehurst%202/Pinehurst2-8tee2.jpg)
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Thanks for taking the time to do this--and all the other tours.
I watched the replay of the 1999 Open last night.It's like 2 completely different golf courses.
+1
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Thanks to Mark & Chris for the great tour & commentary.
I am actually heading to #2 this March and was wondering if there are any pictures of the restored dormant course? The idea of brown grass terrifies an Irishman...
Regards,
Patrick
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Patrick, there's a lot less dormant Bermuda out there nowadays... It's the love grass, pine trees and needles that can cause stress.
Last night I stumbled across an old video production of golf at Pinehurst in the 30s. It's not all #2 but its interesting and includes Byron Nelson and Bobby Jones. Look it up on youtube - Pinehurst 1938.
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Patrick,
Actually, my Irish friends - Ballybunion guys - are pretty comfortable playing on the brown grass.
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Tim,
With all due respect, there is a difference between a links course having a nice brown tinge after a hot summer and dormant bermuda...
Are you suggesting that you would see the below at Ballybunion? Lahinch? Would be interested to hear how #2 plays post-restoration with dormant bermuda? My understanding is that it plays much faster & firmer (a good thing) - the contrast just is not something I am used to having grown up playing links golf in Ireland.
(http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/tt263/dfjb23/Dormie%20Club/IMG_1298.jpg)
@ Hart - really nice to see those historic videos - a great resource to have - no doubt.
Regards,
Patrick
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Thanks to Mark & Chris for the great tour & commentary.
I am actually heading to #2 this March and was wondering if there are any pictures of the restored dormant course? The idea of brown grass terrifies an Irishman...
Regards,
Patrick
Patrick,
The fairways on #2 are "painted, so you aren't going to see the contrast like you will at Dormie Club.
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I was looking at the scorecard and the course rating and slope and it seemed to me to be underrated, especially as to slope. We all know how difficult the greens are so I would have thought that would drive up the slope. I would be hesitant to play a match against a someone whose handicap is based primarily on scores from #2. What do you think?
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Brian - I completely agree with your comments about needing multiple plays to really understand the course. It is difficult to decipher.
Jerry - Wide fairways, no water hazards and almost no opportunity to lose a ball seems a perfect recipe for low slope.
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I've always been very interested and really looked forward to watching events played on this course after reading various reviews, books, articles, photo tours etc, but I can't help feel, admittedly from a far distance, and this is not meant as a criticism or a slight, that previous incarnations of the course seem well, bland, in comparison with what photos reveal it to be like now. Maybe it's the photos, maybe it's the light, maybe it's an element of 'eye-candy', but somehow post renovation the course looks so much more 'I wanna play it!'. One day perhaps...Just MO. Looking forward to the US Open's.
All the best
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Brian - many members will only play P2 on days and/or times that don't involve resort guests. The members play it much faster.
Jerry - I have said in every thread on Pinehurst that the course is really hard for good players but not so hard for average or poor players. No water, almost no trees in play, no chance for a lost ball, and the getting up and down is really difficult, which the good player expects but the average or poor player almost never does in any event. The good player will not likely not play to his handicap while the average player likely will.
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As recently as a couple of years ago it was two or three days a week I believe. It switched between mornings and afternoons.
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How often does that happen? I can't imagine members having priority v often...
20 of the 30 days this month had/have members ony tee time periods and 28 of 31 days in December have members only tee time periods.
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The course looks terrific now and thanks for this photo tour.
One quick question - how will they go in determining during a tournament whether a ball is in or not in a bunker, given the way the bunkers seem to bleed out into the sandy rough? is this an issue from those who have played there recently?
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The course looks terrific now and thanks for this photo tour.
One quick question - how will they go in determining during a tournament whether a ball is in or not in a bunker, given the way the bunkers seem to bleed out into the sandy rough? is this an issue from those who have played there recently?
The local rule is that a bunker is defined by a sand area enclosed by grass. Anything not enclosed (bleeds into the surroundings) is considered a waste area where by you are allowed to ground your club.
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Thanks Jordan.