Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Anthony Gray on March 21, 2012, 11:25:32 AM
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Johny Miller. Is he correct? What are some?
Anthony
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Has Johnny never played Augusta?
#8 has always looked to be a fantastic hole to me.
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Kingsley #13
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18 at Riviera
11 at Shinnecock
13 and 15 at Sand Hills
It's just a stupid statement.
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15 at Bethpage Black?
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Um, yeah..."Johny Miller" is wrong.
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Is 14 at PB a great hole?
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13 at Muirfield
13 at Silloth
Many others.
Stupid statement.
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I'm surprised Johnny doesn't remember the many great uphill holes at Oakmont. I guess he thought they were too easy... :)
Isn't the 18th at PV uphill?
Is 14 at PB a great hole?
Yes.
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14 at Cruden Bay is the best par 4 in golf.
Anthony
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Isn't the 18th at PV uphill?
Yes.
To the contrary, it is very much downhill.
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6 at PB
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Isn't the 18th at PV uphill?
Yes.
To the contrary, it is very much downhill.
The tee shot or the approach or both? My recollection of the photos posted on here was a slightly elevated tee shot, then uphill from the fairway up to the green.
Thanks for the help, guess I've been misinterpreting those photos. :)
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14 at Cruden Bay is the best par 4 in golf.
Anthony
No, it isn't. It's not even the best par 4 at Cruden Bay. It may, arguably, be the best par 4 in a back 9 short of good par 4s.
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18 at Sand Hills. 12 and 18 at Dismal.
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14 at Cruden Bay is the best par 4 in golf.
Anthony
No, it isn't. It's not even the best par 4 at Cruden Bay. It may, arguably, be the best par 4 in a back 9 short of good par 4s.
Mark, One does not argue with Dr. Gray about Cruden Bay.
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18 at Sand Hills. 12 and 18 at Dismal.
I'm sure that Johnny is kicking himself for having forgotten 12 and 18 at Dismal ;D
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14 at Cruden Bay is the best par 4 in golf.
Anthony
No, it isn't. It's not even the best par 4 at Cruden Bay. It may, arguably, be the best par 4 in a back 9 short of good par 4s.
+1
Miller is on the record calling PVGC 15 on of the greatest par 5s in golf.
Congrats on getting this far with the trolling, Anthony.
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The 8th at Crystal Downs. The 8th and 9th (among others) at Prairie Dunes.
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You guys make the mistake of assuming that Miller thought about that statement for more than a nanosecond before he uttered it.
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In my humble opinion, Johnny is correct. Most of the holes mentioned are partly uphill, and they work. Any purely uphill holes that I have played suck (the air out of my lungs).
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Thinking of recent plays, #3 at Forest Creek South is pretty cool.
I will give Johnny some credit, as I would guess that it is more difficult to build a great uphill hole.
I have always found it interesting how architects tackle moving back uphill after a big drop. Sometimes with switchback holes that use a bit of the uphill each time, and sometimes with a long cart ride or walk.
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Good old Johnny. 15 at Bethpage black is a great hole. Also, hole 5.
Mark
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Asked another way, are there any uphill holes that would generally be considered the best hole on a particular course? I'm betting not.
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Asked another way, are there any uphill holes that would generally be considered the best hole on a particular course? I'm betting not.
#16 at Forrest's Hideout might qualify. It is generally listed as one of the two best there.
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18 at Sand Hills. 12 and 18 at Dismal.
I'm sure that Johnny is kicking himself for having forgotten 12 and 18 at Dismal ;D
And perhaps #2 and #17 at Olympic were downhill when Johnny was playing the course as a yute ...
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Asked another way, are there any uphill holes that would generally be considered the best hole on a particular course? I'm betting not.
The 8th at Crystal Downs. The 8th or 9th at Prairie Dunes.
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You guys make the mistake of assuming that Miller thought about that statement for more than a nanosecond before he uttered it.
You guys make the mistake of assuming Miller made that statement.
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David,
9th at PD uphill? Can't be if 8 is uphill.
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14 at Cruden Bay is the best par 4 in golf.
Anthony
No, it isn't. It's not even the best par 4 at Cruden Bay. It may, arguably, be the best par 4 in a back 9 short of good par 4s.
+1
Miller is on the record calling PVGC 15 on of the greatest par 5s in golf.
Congrats on getting this far with the trolling, Anthony.
I think thats funny but I don't understand it Mark.
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David,
9th at PD uphill? Can't be if 8 is uphill.
Yeah I thought about that. They both sure seem uphill to me, but then I used to walk to and from school, uphill both ways. Try the 9th from the forward tees and maybe it works?
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Mark B appears to be right...
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0HFI/is_3_58/ai_n27909997/
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GOLF page 87. Has anyone named a "great" uphill hole? Maybe he is correct. Is 13 at Pac Dunes an uphill hole?
Anthony
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9th at Rolling Green GC (615 yards all uphill)
9th at the Philadelphia Cricket Club
18th at Lancaster Country Club
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JM is probably one of those guys who thinks the bottom of the pin being blind is a sin, too. It affects his perspective. Many uphill holes are a bit awkward, and even more are blind.
However, its a matter of degrees and total compostion. I agree that in very few cases the best holes on a course are uphill, but some of the holes mentioned are pretty gently uphill, and you can see the green, if not the pin. They add certain elements, like less roll, etc. that cannot be had with downhill holes.
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Nobody has mentioned a well known hole.
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His comments were related to the 18th at Augusta
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The third at NGLA plays uphill, at least on the second shot.
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Anthony, I apologize. I thought you were having us on.
Here is Johnny Miller in "I Call the Shots."
On the 15th Pine Valley:
Pine Valley also has one of the great par 5s in golf in its 15th hole. It's uphill all the way and gets narrower as you go along.
On Shinny 14:
The 14th hole, a par 4 that sweeps down from the tee and then up to the right to an elusive green, may be the best hole in the world.
On Shinny's finish:
And the finishing holes are the best in golf...The 18th is five miles of lonesome road, an uphill par 4 where pars are dearly bought.
Someday Johnny really needs to get around to reading his book. ???
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18 ngla, 5 angc, 18 at #2, 9 and 18 at shgc, etc
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David,
9th at PD uphill? Can't be if 8 is uphill.
Yeah I thought about that. They both sure seem uphill to me, but then I used to walk to and from school, uphill both ways. Try the 9th from the forward tees and maybe it works?
You forgot to mention the distance, the temperature, and the blizzard.
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Nobody has mentioned a well known hole.
6 at PB not well known?
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Nobody has mentioned a well known hole.
6 at PB not well known?
What's PB?
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Nobody has mentioned a well known hole.
6 at PB not well known?
What's PB?
I believe it's the place where johnny posted his last tour win.
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17 Oakmont
3 Fishers Island
4 Shennecossett
13 The Orchards
17 Wampanoag
17 Essex County Club
9 Newport CC
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Doesn't Westchester have a couple pretty darn good uphilll holes near the middle of the round?
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My list from last year, with Yale swapped in at the 10 spot:
1) Jeffersonville-4 (Ross chain bunkering—firm handshake)
2) St. George’s-4 (use of steep slopes for bunkering and strategy--I could have picked four of five from this course, which makes me want to go back to Toronto again!)
3) Country Club of Rochester-4 (making a short par four tough)
4) Swinley Forest-3 (shelf greens!--another course with a bunch of great uphill holes)
5) Dismal River-3 (horizon green, centerline bunker)
6) Mountain Ridge-5 (when short par fives are tough)
7) Yeamans Hall-4 (the bruising long par four)
8. Ballyneal-5 (all bunkers are there in front of you—steep green)
9) French Creek-4 (lay out the strategy, punchbowl green)
10) Yale-4 (epic architecture at at its best--and how about that green?)
11) Merion (West)-4 (Flynn at his best)
12) Lederach-5 (driver-three-wood-three-wood)
13) Oak Hill (West)-4 (Ross on rolling land--could have picked 13 East too!)
14) Rolling Green-3 (a classic Flynn par three)
15) Garden City-4 (obscured view for the second shot)
16) Schuylkill-3 (an uphill short par three)
17) Teugega (classic Ross routing, down then up more to a wild green)
18) The Country Club-4 (a great test for the finish)
And a four-pager on the same topic: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49034.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49034.0.html)
Johnny Miller--stick to commentary on golf swings. Your statement makes it clear you know nothing about golf architecture.
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Anthony,
#14 at PB is a great hole! I rate it as one of the best inland 5's anywhere, though the green needs to be reclaimed some to add better pinnable areas. #6 is down then up.
Cheers,
Kris 8)
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David M,
9 is harder for me than 8, and might as well play uphill. I have like 3 pars there in 50 rounds. Destroys me.
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The Down Under edition:
RMW - 5, 7, 10
St. Andrew's Beach - 2, 10 (you could add a few more here)
Barnbougle Dunes - 4, 6, 8, 10 (argument that the elevated tees on 4, 6, and 8) negate a bit of the uphill)
Lost Farm - 3, 17 (not the best holes on the course, but both are fun to play)
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David M,
9 is harder for me than 8, and might as well play uphill. I have like 3 pars there in 50 rounds. Destroys me.
They are both impossible for me. I don't even think about par. But even so they are both always fun and may be my two favorites on a course with many good holes. Last time there I managed a par on the 9th yet still managed to lose the hole. That hurt.
Rustic Canyon has a number of uphill holes one might consider the best hole on the course, including the 11th. Not my favorite uphill hole, but people seem to love it.
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No, 17, Eagles Mere (A Flynn sporty resorter): Par 3, 130 yards. It's called Billy Goat Hill. You have to stand on a bench to see the top of the flagstick.
Maybe not great, but memorable.
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I like to see what I am doing, ie a visual sort, so naturally I like downhill better. But there are tons of great uphill holes in golf. 11 at Mountain lake and 2 at Olympic Lake come to mind.
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Asked another way, are there any uphill holes that would generally be considered the best hole on a particular course? I'm betting not.
The 8th at Crystal Downs, and the 8th at Prairie Dunes.
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15 at Kingston Heath gets a lot of votes as the best hole there.
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Just remembered the two hundred yard uphill par 3 at Crail. Love that hole. Am I alone?
Anthony
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??? ??? ???
Uphill is uphill .....the 15th at Pine Valley certainly qualifies. Johnny could really hit it, but sometimes he gets a little loose with the lips .
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How could we go this far in the thread without mentioning the 14th at CPC?
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Just remembered the two hundred yard uphill par 3 at Crail. Love that hole. Am I alone?
Anthony
The 13th. And no, you're not alone. Could be the best hole on the course.
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While it isn't as good as some of the more famous uphill holes at Shinnecock, Pebble, and BP Black that I've played . . .
When I was a member at Pine Hill, which is now a Trump course, I always loved #9. It is an uphill par 4 to a skyline green, very classy hole!
-Ted
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15 at Kingston Heath gets a lot of votes as the best hole there.
Mike:
From your portfolio, do you have any favorite uphill holes?
Sven
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Nobody has mentioned a well known hole.
6 at PB not well known?
What's PB?
I believe it's the place where johnny posted his last tour win.
6 at Pebble Beach is hard to call an uphill hole. There is a significantly uphill shot on the hole, certainly. But the drive is pretty significantly downhill and any third shot would be mostly level. Overall I would guess the tee is at about the same level as the green, perhaps slightly higher.
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I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but it occurred to me a few years ago that several of the greatest courses have a significant number of uphill approaches. Sand Hills and Merion come to mind immediately. Sand Hills has seven or eight. Let' s count:
#1
#2
#7
#9
#11
#13
#14 (often)
#18
Thanks.
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Asked another way, are there any uphill holes that would generally be considered the best hole on a particular course? I'm betting not.
The 8th at Crystal Downs, and the 8th at Prairie Dunes.
Not only that, PJ Boatwright and I love 17 at PD. So one could argue two uphill holes there "generally" could be considered the best two on that particular course.
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Pine Valley 2nd
Augusta National 14th
Shinnecock Hills 9th
Pebble Beach 4th
Oakmont 2nd
Muirfield 13th
Merion 12th
National Golf Links of America 4th and 16th
Royal Melbourne (West) 10th
Pinehurst (No. 2) 5th
Ballybunnion (Old 2nd
Pacific Dunes 4th
Crystal Downs 8th
Seminole 2nd and 11th
Prairie Dunes 4th and 8th
San Francisco 2nd
Kingston Heath 15th
Fishers Island Club 3rd, 5th
Oakland Hills (South) 11th
Riviera 18th .
New South Wales 7th
Sunningdale (Old) 6th and 7th
I don't think I need to go on ...
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Interesting to see what people consider uphill. My definition is uphill from tee to green, and it needs to be significantly up hill. 16 at Bandon Trails fits my definition. 8 at Spyglass as well. Many great holes mentioned here I would not consider uphill holes.
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...
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Anthony,
If you're talking about the one that goes right up the hill to the clubhouse, that is exactly the hole I thought about when I saw this thread. It's awesome, straight uphill with everything in front of you. Fabulous view climbing the hill from the tee, very memorable.
Just remembered the two hundred yard uphill par 3 at Crail. Love that hole. Am I alone?
Anthony
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Sankaty Head, #17
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Interesting to see what people consider uphill. My definition is uphill from tee to green, and it needs to be significantly up hill. 16 at Bandon Trails fits my definition. 8 at Spyglass as well. Many great holes mentioned here I would not consider uphill holes.
So long as the green is significantly above the tee, does it matter what happens in between?
How does Miller feel about blind holes?
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I am inclined to disagree with most of the posts here, for me uphill is a tee shot to green surface that is blind, a tee shot to a fairway surface that is blind, and an approach shot off an uphill lie to a a green where the surface is completely blind.
I can't think of any that are good that match that description, and none are fun - on the other hand, if we requested everyone to list really bad uphill holes that fit the above, I bet we could get that thread to 5 pages in 24 hrs ;)
So, no ones comments above have convinced me of Mr Millers quote as being inaccurate.
16 at Trails, although a drudgery to play up that long hill, it is really only the approach shot that is blind to the putting surface, as I recall, but of course could be completely wrong!
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Sven
From the holes we have done my favourite uphill hole might be the 14th at Lake Karrinyup - a short 4 with diagonal bunkers across the drive.
13 at Portsea is also really good - especially considering how poor the original was.
The par 5 18th at Ranfurlie turned out quite well given its a long hole with a blind second up the big hill back to the clubhouse.
For a par 3 we did a good job changing the look of the short 14th at Victoria.
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I am inclined to disagree with most of the posts here, for me uphill is a tee shot to green surface that is blind, a tee shot to a fairway surface that is blind, and an approach shot off an uphill lie to a a green where the surface is completely blind.
I can't think of any that are good that match that description, and none are fun - on the other hand, if we requested everyone to list really bad uphill holes that fit the above, I bet we could get that thread to 5 pages in 24 hrs ;)
So, no ones comments above have convinced me of Mr Millers quote as being inaccurate.
16 at Trails, although a drudgery to play up that long hill, it is really only the approach shot that is blind to the putting surface, as I recall, but of course could be completely wrong!
Brent
That is a bizarre standard for uphill. Some blind shots don't have to be much uphill at all and of course the steepest grades of fairway often mean blindness is far from on the cards. I generally think of uphill as well, uphill. I could understand if you said only examples of uphill shots which require at least one extra club, but otherwise, you have lost me.
I think St Enodoc's 4th is a cracking uphill hole.
I also love Sligo's 17th.
Pennard's 6th is excellent.
Ciao
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Ridgewood CC -- #8 West
Pinehurst #2 -- 8th hole when played as a par 4
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Brett, I agree with Sean. Your standard for "uphill" just doesn't make any sense. An uphill hole is a hole that plays up hill. Why make it more complicated? 13 at Muirfield is a par 3 up a steep hill, to a steeply sloping green. There is no blindness involved. Only a contrarian could possibly attempt to argue that it was not an uphill hole. However, its sounds like that is exactly what you would argue.
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Interesting to see what people consider uphill. My definition is uphill from tee to green, and it needs to be significantly up hill. 16 at Bandon Trails fits my definition. 8 at Spyglass as well. Many great holes mentioned here I would not consider uphill holes.
So long as the green is significantly above the tee, does it matter what happens in between?
How does Miller feel about blind holes?
To me if you have an elevated tee shot to lower fairway then hit up to a elevated green, it isn't really an uphill hole, its an uphill approach shot. To me, anyway. Also, holes that are gently sloping uphill, or level on the tee shot, with a slightly elevated green, I just wouldn't think of them as uphill, holes, that's all. Others do, thats fine. I feel the same way if its downhill in a similar fashion
Is 8 at Pebble an uphill or downhill hole? I wouldn't classify it as either.
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Interesting to see what people consider uphill. My definition is uphill from tee to green, and it needs to be significantly up hill. 16 at Bandon Trails fits my definition. 8 at Spyglass as well. Many great holes mentioned here I would not consider uphill holes.
Agreed. For example, I don't think of PII as having any uphill holes.
Bob
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Sean and Mark,
As usual, I have not made my point clear, or have muddied the position. :-\
For Johnny, to have made this statement, I have (in)correctly made the assumption that he is NOT referring to any golf holes that start high, dip, and back up again - eg the list at Sand Hills above - or holes that play up a gentle incline, or even a moderate slope, because if that is what he WAS referring to then it is even more of a ridiculous statement than first thought.
My position in my post above, was one of extremities, for how else could you make a statement like that? It appears as though I am eating oranges while everyone else is eating apples.
Let me try the opposite end of the spectrum, the drop shot P3, a hole that is often derided by some, but loved and enjoyed by others, PB7 and SF7 come to mind - if these two holes played in reverse, they would universally be regard as average to bad holes, and certainly not great holes.
Sean, as you noted, if I had added a further point of clarification that was measurable, like MORE than one extra club, this would have helped to explain my point better.
BRETT
Mark, although my intention was not to be deliberately contrarian, what do the think the owner of the statement was doing, apart from sounding stupid or being taken out of context? Which I can also see how my post may have seemed, but devils advocate or challenging the majority opinion, has certainly helped me consider many of the holes I consider uphill, and their merit, even though my post did not properly convey my thoughts on the matter.
And so, I still argue that any hole that consistently asked for more than one club uphill - consider 2-3 extra clubs, for a driver, or 5 iron or wedge - is certainly no fun whatsoever, I will always concede to the treehouse's wiser and much more experienced minds that there are indeed great uphill holes. Still waiting to be convinced.
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Brett,
Given the identity of the individual making the original statement I see no reason to make any great effort to find a way of construing the statement in a way that doesn't make him look like an idiot. I admire you for trying to do so but maintain that the interpretation you are forcing on to the word "uphill", in a bid to make Miller look other than stupid, is artificial.
Even then, I can think of holes (13 at Crail Balcomie is an example), which play steeply enough uphill to call for more than 1 extra club and yet which are excellent holes, even if I cannot, at the moment, think of a hole I would describe as unequivocally great which meets that description.
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In the Morman version of the afterlife, Johnny will be handed a hickory mid iron and be forced to play Old Mac #7 over and over with the one club until he comes to his senses. Upon this moment of awakening, he will be reborn as a bird who hovers over #7 at Old Mac looking to do a little target practice of his own.
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I am inclined to disagree with most of the posts here, for me uphill is a tee shot to green surface that is blind, a tee shot to a fairway surface that is blind, and an approach shot off an uphill lie to a a green where the surface is completely blind.
I can't think of any that are good that match that description, and none are fun - on the other hand, if we requested everyone to list really bad uphill holes that fit the above, I bet we could get that thread to 5 pages in 24 hrs ;)
Redan at North Berwick ?
Niall