Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Howard Riefs on March 07, 2012, 11:55:54 AM
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Gil Hanse selected.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/olympics/wires/03/07/2090.ap.oly.rio.2016.golf.course/ (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/olympics/wires/03/07/2090.ap.oly.rio.2016.golf.course/)
Big upset.
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Wow. Big upset indeed. Congrats to Gil though!
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WOW!
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WOW. Was the decision made in the last couple days, or months ago? Could Trump-Doral have had any impact? What will Amy Alcott bring to the table?
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Congrats to Gil!
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I would not have bet on Gil Hanse.. :o
Congrats!
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Agreed, quite a surprise.
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Winner, Winner, Chicken Dinner!
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Does this mean Castle Stuart trumps Pacific Dunes?
Does this mean a relatively featureless site at Rustic Canyon trumps Old MacDonald?
Congrats to Gil and to Ian Andrew who advised.
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For the GCA crowd, many of us would have liked to have seen Tom get the nod for a variety of reasons, but this has got to be the next best thing. Now we actually have a reason to watch the games...
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Congratulations to Gil.
I've played Rustic Canyon and Castle Stuart, both are very good and appropriate to what's required of them. I like the message in his press release. The best golf courses do have an air of 'joyfulness'. Well done, and I look forward to seeing the Rio design.
May I offer my commiserations to the other teams, especially The Doak team and the Perrett/Thomson team. I believe both those groups would also have produced high quality courses.
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The winning routing:
(http://www.hansegolfdesign.com/Olympic_2016_files/Rio!%201400.jpg)
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Typical IOC, just going with the biggest name. ;)
Congratulations to Gil!
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Garland,
I did not advise, he needed none for me.
I helped him though some technical issues he had.
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WOW. Was the decision made in the last couple days, or months ago? Could Trump-Doral have had any impact? What will Amy Alcott bring to the table?
I had dinner at a table with Peter Dawson at St Andrews February 7th. I told him they had a lot of curious people waiting to find out and that putting it off for a month was a tough wait. He smiled and replied "We've already decided who the architect is." Sadly, then the conversation turned to golf Rules, which considering it was a Referee's School, was okay with the non GCA interested people sitting at the table.
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Wow. Congrats to Gil and his team for the win.
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Outstanding "win" for Gil...congratulations.
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Congratulations to Mr. Hanse. I wonder if he'll be picking up any Portugese slang after taking up residence during construction. And thanks, Kalen, for posting the routing.
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Big upset. Thought Jack had it locked up.
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I couldn't be more thrilled. Congrats to Gil and Jim! My time with them working on the Cobb's Creek initiative has reaffirmed that while they are talented designers, they are even better people.
The gold medal comes to Philly!
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Watching his news conference, I thought it was really interesting that he said that he would like to sit and talk with other architect teams who submitted proposals, and specifically mentioned Tom Doak as someone he admires, and would love to hear what his thoughts about the job and site were...
Interesting.
Adam
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Great news and congratulations. I have to say the routing is a thing of beauty. Wow. All the shared fairways, what looks like real pro-level risk/reward with the greens tucked by the water on 2 and 5, the tempting drivable 4 9th, and what looks like a bang-up finishing hole, 18.
Will definitely be watching.....
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Adam,
Remember, Gil once work for Tom back in the day...
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Geoff Shackelford presents some of the factors that “aided Hanse’s bid even as he was arguably the least well-known finalist”
http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2012/3/8/gil-hanse-wins-olympic-course-design-competition.html
* “R&A Chief Officer Peter Dawson, publicly praised the 48-year-old designer's work at Scottish Open host Castle Stuart.”
* “Strongly supported by the PGA Tour, whose Design Services division guided the Rio Organizing Committee.”
* “Among the first architects to visit the Rio site a year ago before the design contest was opened to all interested bidders last fall.”
* “Impressed Brazilian Golf Advisory Board member and jury panelist Arminio Fraga with a design approach respecting the environmentally sensitive land while fitting Rio’s goals of creating a sustainable design meld with its native surrounds.”
* “Allied himself with LPGA Hall of Famer Amy Alcott, whose enthusiasm for the public golf component of the project reportedly impressed the panel, as did support from environmental consulting firm, The Larkin Group.”
* His presentation in Rio was “reportedly boosted by a video endorsement from former USGA Executive Director David Fay, one of golf’s biggest Olympic advocates during his stint with the International Golf Federation.”
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It's actually an incredible pick as Gil has only 9 original designs to his name. Compared to however many Nicklaus, Norman, etc... have.
Overall, he's a great compromise as he has experience working on tournament level designs (TPC Boston, TCC Brookline, Winged Foot, Castle Stuart, etc.), but is a modern day "minimalist" who favors public golf, environmentally favorable designs, and little earth moving.
So, I suppose it makes perfect sense?
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Am I misreading the diagram - or do I see a course without distinct tee boxes?
Plus, look at #1, #7 and #18 - all sharing common ground - spectacular!
Ok - one more - Look at #A, #B, and #C over by the range - 3 hole area for practice/beginners?
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Adam,
Remember, Gil once work for Tom back in the day...
Dan, I had forgotten that.
But cool that Gil would bring the idea of getting input from other architects - and Tom by name - publicly into the discussion during the press release. I have no idea if Tom or anyone else would like to have that conversation, but I thought it seemed thoughtful to want to get perspectives from other architects - in an effort to make this project be the best it could be.
Adam
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Adam,
Remember, Gil once work for Tom back in the day...
Dan, I had forgotten that.
But cool that Gil would bring the idea of getting input from other architects - and Tom by name - publicly into the discussion during the press release. I have no idea if Tom or anyone else would like to have that conversation, but I thought it seemed thoughtful to want to get perspectives from other architects - in an effort to make this project be the best it could be.
Adam
I'd say the tide is turning.
Now might be a good time to lock Hanse's, Doak's or Coore's sons or nephews into long term contracts ;D ;D
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Some disappointed faces in my office, obviously.
I had dinner with Gil in Rio in December, and told him then that if we couldn't get the job, I hoped he did. My congratulations to him, and best wishes for the work that lies ahead to prove that the committee made the right choice.
P.S. Thanks to all of those here who expressed their support for our bid. A lot of good that was worth! ;)
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Congrats, Gil! Big last couple of months!!
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Tom,
Did you know about the selection ahead of time, or did you hear it on TV ? They did a great job keeping the lid on.
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Am I misreading the diagram - or do I see a course without distinct tee boxes?
Dan,
On a number of his courses he has used closely mowed transitional areas between green and tee with one green kind of flowing into the next tee box (Applebrook, Castle Stuart, Rustic Canyon, BGC). I thought the same thing that you did re: the lack of tee boxes when looking at the routing so maybe he is going to use those closely mowed areas throughout the entire golf course.
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Looking at the proposed routing, a couple of things stand out:
1. The lakes/ponds will be manmade, and serve as irrigation ponds.
2. Seems like there's a bit of land to the north of the proposed course and south of the main road that was either off limits or not used for this routing.
3. The flow between greens and teeing areas looks fantastic. Clearly designed as a walkers course.
4. I wonder how the joint fairways and holes bordering on the water may impact spectator flow (for long term usage purposes this is a very minor concern).
5. Looks like the proposed lengths range from 5118 to 7226, all playing to a par of 71.
6. 5 par 3's, 4 par 5's.
Would love to see an overlay of the routing on a google maps image, if anyone has the skills.
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It's pretty funny that I was getting 3-1 on the Tom & Gil combo because I thought it was primarily a bet on Tom with Gil as a longshot throw-in. Better lucky than smart once again. Does this signal a real turning point in GCA history? Guess we can no longer refer to our little corner of the world as an inconsequential niche market for hardcore golf nerds...
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Yes Sven, that is an interesting routing and it doesn't depict a considerable portion of the property between the main "Avenue de Americas" and the apparent north end of the golf course along #18. Obviously they aren't taking out that substantial condo project in the NE corner. I'd love to be the owner of that 'lounge' cantina right on the main drag, next to the proposed golf course.
You can go to google street view and run that route on the north side of the course, along the avenue. Interesting large billboard for a RE company called Cyrela RE investors. One would imagine some similar high rise condos will go there along the avenue north of the course, and get a pretty penny.
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=-23.000214,-43.404257&spn=0.00004,0.018411&t=m&z=16&layer=c&cbll=-23.00021,-43.408208&panoid=SkkUEEK7nPrbP-Pd7r-gAg&cbp=12,142.71,,0,10.41
Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barra_da_Tijuca#History
...says this area name translates from Barra di Tujica to "swampy sandbank". Maybe Gil will have his name associated with the 'Blue Monsters" of north and south America! Good Luck Gil!!! ;) ;D 8)
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Shocked and pleased here. Congrats to Gil.
I must say this has not only given me faith in GCA, but faith in the Olympic bureaucrats. I just assume they're mainly corrupt and they'd just pick a big name!
Looks like a fine routing, shame I'm unlikely ever to play it.
Maybe Gil will design the 3rd course at Streamsong (near me).
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Tom Doak --
Two requests:
1. If you have not done so already, would you please post your routing, so we can get a look at it?
2. Would you please address this question: How much of the selection process do you think was "political" -- not GeoPolitical, but lower-case political, as in interpersonal, bureaucratic "politics"?
Dan
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Does the site have much in the way of elevation change - any interesting features worth mentioning??
No and none.
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According to AP golf writer Doug Ferguson via twitter:
Hanse said camera crew from GC followed him all morning, along with 7 other candidates waiting for the call. #overthetop #WAYoverthetop
Seriously? The Golf Channel turned the announcement into the NCAA selection show. Is that considered good TV? Just horrible.
"So, Jack and Annika, you were reportedly the favorites. How do you feel right now..."
https://twitter.com/#!/dougferguson405/status/177462467511844864 (https://twitter.com/#!/dougferguson405/status/177462467511844864)
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Well, I bet they taped some "OH, Sh**!" from six of them, and maybe a "Hot Damn" from Gil.......except he doesn't swear much.
As TD can attest, it is so dissapointing to put in so much work, and not get selected. But, its part of the biz.
I sure wouldn't want the cameras on me as I watched on TV to see the announcement. I still have to think Gil had some advance word, but who knows. Usually the winners do.
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Tom Doak --
Two requests:
1. If you have not done so already, would you please post your routing, so we can get a look at it?
2. Would you please address this question: How much of the selection process do you think was "political" -- not GeoPolitical, but lower-case political, as in interpersonal, bureaucratic "politics"?
Dan
Dan:
1. I haven't posted our routing for the course, and I won't. And I'm not sure that I could, since technically Rio2016 owns the rights to all the designs, and the non-disclosure agreement remains in effect until after 2016. Anyway, it wouldn't be right to distract from the winning entry. Plus, I wouldn't want to give away all the design ideas we had for this project, and put them in the public domain. One of the things we suggested was really unique, as silly as that sounds.
2. There was surely a fair amount of interpersonal politics involved. I think that some of the big names may have underestimated it, actually, assuming that their stature would carry the day.
3. (Addressing some other rumors above.) There was no camera from the Golf Channel here today, and I seriously doubt that they were following around any of the other finalists, either. Did they tell Gil that to keep him on pins and needles? I don't know, but like Jeff, I presumed that the winner would know well in advance, which is why I was prepared to not hear my name in the announcement. Plus, I doubt Gil or anyone else could put out such a gracious press release so fast, if he really had no idea that the decision was coming. The AP story yesterday that we were all invited to Rio for the announcement was not accurate, either. We had heard nothing at all, on the record or off, after the press release that delayed the decision.
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I'm happy for the winning team, and disappointed for our friend. I'm not any good at such things, so I can't tell anything from the draft routing (but thanks Kalen for posting); but I was struck that the "legacy" and "environment" elements were, judging from the news release, even more important/front of mind than I thought they'd be.
Peter
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I still have to think Gil had some advance word, but who knows. Usually the winners do.
Either that, or the selection committee asked each finalist to prepare an official statement "just in case"
http://www.hansegolfdesign.com/News.html (http://www.hansegolfdesign.com/News.html)
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Tom:
This may be one where you actually may be fortunate not to be the selectee. Looks a bit like herding cats to me.
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Tom:
This may be one where you actually may be fortunate not to be the selectee. Looks a bit like herding cats to me.
Chris:
That's silly. It is a great opportunity for Gil. We would have loved to build the course -- though the site is nothing like yours.
What you are right about is that there is a ton of work to be done from here forward. A pretty plan is one thing, but building a great golf course takes a lot more work than that -- as Gil knows as well as anyone.
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Making the short list of finalists is a great achievement already. Gary Player apparently sees it that way as well and put out a respectable statement:
http://garyplayer.com/news/news_detail/gary_player_congratulates_gil_hanse_on_being_awarded_the_golf_course_projec/
Ulrich
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18 time major Champion Gary Player? This is his own website!
18 majors? Ah, yes, the Champions/Seniors tour:
* Winner of nine Majors on the Regular PGA Tour, with a total of 44 top ten finishes, including five second place and three third place finishes
* Winner of nine Majors on the Senior PGA Tour, with a total of 29 top ten finishes, including two second place and six third place finishes
http://garyplayer.com/legend/grand_slam_golfer/ (http://garyplayer.com/legend/grand_slam_golfer/)
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1. I haven't posted our routing for the course, and I won't. And I'm not sure that I could, since technically Rio2016 owns the rights to all the designs, and the non-disclosure agreement remains in effect until after 2016. Anyway, it wouldn't be right to distract from the winning entry. Plus, I wouldn't want to give away all the design ideas we had for this project, and put them in the public domain. One of the things we suggested was really unique, as silly as that sounds.
I presume that Rio2016 does not "own" the unique feature of your design.
I look forward to hearing about its (re)appearance, elsewhere.
Thanks for your answers.
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This is big news.
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repeated from another thread:
Boy, I’m excited.
As most o you know I have worked on a number of restoration projects with Gil as well as a number of Master Plans, so I have intimate knowledge to his innovative thinking when it comes to course design and redesign.
For me, an ex-dry cleaner - hah, it was a wonderful experience and the time we spent together over the past 12-13 years was an experience I’ll never forget.
In 1999 Gil turned over to me a small project he was involved with, out on Long Island while he was building his Tall Grass course. It led to a very interesting experience for me, something that never crossed my mind before; building a golf course .......... it developed into what is now Stonebridge, a muni out in Hauppauge, NY. - not much of a course but, to me as a total novice, to see your thoughts and visions “grow” out of the ground, and grow into a course people would play for many years was very exciting.
Gil had routed the course, but left the finals to me, touching up the tight routing (about 96-acres - phew) and what was most cool, it was up to me to design the green surfaces and finally overseeing the construction of the course.
I met Gil a few years earlier while he was working on the Brookville course and also Morris County CC here in NJ. I had been in the midst of researching the Macdonald book and he asked me to take a look at the bunker shapes and angles.
Two very special projects together came later, the restoration of Essex County CC and, of course, Sleepy Hollow.
These may be “chump change” type jobs for most architects, but for me, at this point in my life, these were extraordinary, and very rewarding experiences. I love restorations.
Working and making decisions in the field with Gil during these and other projects demonstrated to me the genius of his design philosophies and creativeness and with him “allowing” my input on occasion, the entire experience was very satisfying.
Gilbert Hanse is one of my very good friends and to see him advance to these lofty levels is such a thrill for me.
But as many have said, this a huge boost for golf course architecture as we think of it. The usual star power (under circumstances such as this) has taken a back seat.
Congratulations, good friend
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Would love to see an overlay of the routing on a google maps image, if anyone has the skills.
Here is a Google Earth image of the site...
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj310/eko_gfl/GoogleEarthRioOlympic.jpg)
...and here it is with the Hanse plan overlayed...
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj310/eko_gfl/GoogleEarthRioOlympicOverlay.jpg)
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Wow, big result, well done to all involved
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Couple good articles from Golfweek with some select quotes of note:
Hanse should be a natural fit for Rio
by Brad Klein:
"Beyond what this means for Hanse’s own career, it is a powerful step in the emergence of a more naturalistic, more traditionalist and ecologically sensitive approach to golf and golf-course design."
http://golfweek.com/news/2012/mar/07/choosing-hanse-ioc-makes-wise-decision/ (http://golfweek.com/news/2012/mar/07/choosing-hanse-ioc-makes-wise-decision/)
In choosing Hanse, IOC makes 'wise' decision
"Hanse confirmed that plans call for ground to be broken in October for a course that will be on treeless property that is mostly sand in Reserva de Marapendi in Barra da Tijuca, where wind will be a huge factor. So long as they meet plans to break ground in October 'the timeline that’s been articulated is comfortable,' Hanse said. 'It’s not great, but I think given the climate and warm-season grasses, we should be able to get the golf course up and running by the middle or end of 2014.' "
http://golfweek.com/news/2012/mar/07/choosing-hanse-ioc-makes-wise-decision/ (http://golfweek.com/news/2012/mar/07/choosing-hanse-ioc-makes-wise-decision/)
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From Gil's website:
(http://www.hansegolfdesign.com/Olympic_2016_files/shapeimage_15.png)
(Ed, there's a pretty cool plan for the Old School course at Prairie Club. Not sure if that made it to your plans thread or not)
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Good pub for the Prairie Club.. if the course is well recieved.. if/when Old School is...
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Congrats to Gil and his team. My only exposure to his work is the Horse Course at the Prairie Club. Some fabulous and creative work there! I look forward to the Old School course at the Prairie Club and his Olympic endeavor! Good Luck hanseforth!
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Not sure why so many are surprised. He is the world's best architect and had backroom support from geoffshackelford.com.
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A great day for golf design. It's very hard to overstate what this means for golf architecture. Beyond the significance to Gil's career, it means a lot for the worldwide perception and discussion of golf design, golf's ecological sustainability, the value of local land form identity, the importance of teamwork, and the enduring values of classic ground-game design.
http://golfweek.com/news/2012/mar/07/hanse-should-be-natural-fit-rio/
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As usual, you've nailed it, Brad.
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In case you missed the interview... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Xdisz9269g
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I agree with everyone's thoughts. When heard the news yesterday I felt that the game has taken a major shift for the better.
In its own way it even enhances Golf Club Atlas.
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Congrats again Gil and team.
all right. I'll say it.
Were there any candidates that didn't bring a woman on board?
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I'm pretty sure that Hawtree, RTJII, Gary Player and Tom Doak did not include a woman specifically as such on the design team for her LPGA/playing/design credentials.
There might have been some women involved on their respective environmental teams, but not in the room as part of the presentation by the above-named four teams for the sake of symbolism or substance.
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Will the course be open to the public prior to the olympics?
Anthony
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Will the course be open to the public prior to the olympics?
Anthony
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NO!!!!! Not another wife finding trip!
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From Gil's website:
(http://www.hansegolfdesign.com/Olympic_2016_files/shapeimage_15.png)
(Ed, there's a pretty cool plan for the Old School course at Prairie Club. Not sure if that made it to your plans thread or not)
The courses look really interesting and I am sure it will be great fun to play, my only experience of Gil Hanse's work was at Castle Stuart which definitely was, but from the pics above with all the shared fairways and ponds, it doesn't look like the most spectator friendly course I have ever seen.
I only mention this as with golf such a minority sport in Brasil, the vast majority of the locals being so poor and having witnessed myself how local football clubs struggle to fill their stadiums with fans even though the whole country is fanatical about the sport and tickets are relatively cheap, I can't really see many turning out to watch golf.
Even if the golf and course are great, if the course is empty and there is no atmosphere I can't help but think the whole thing will be a massive flop.
Has anyone got any inside info on what the IOC is expecting/planning for spectator numbers wise?
Will they be targeting locals or tourists over for the games?
Even any ideas on pricing - though I guess that will be decide far nearer the time?
It's a long shot anyone will be able to answer any of these I know but still worth trying!
Personally I would have loved to have seen it played as matchplay, with free tickets for the locals and shuttle buses put on etc etc. It would be great to get as many people in there as possible and exposed to golf. If done properly it could expose the whole of South America to the sport and be a huge boost for the industry and sport as a whole.
I would hate to see a chance like this missed.
But anyway congratulations to Gil Hanse and co, I am sure they will build a great course!
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I'm pretty sure that Hawtree, RTJII, Gary Player and Tom Doak did not include a woman specifically as such on the design team for her LPGA/playing/design credentials.
There might have been some women involved on their respective environmental teams, but not in the room as part of the presentation by the above-named four teams for the sake of symbolism or substance.
Brad:
Two of my interns, Sara Mess and Angela Moser, worked extensively on our design presentation, though they did not come to Rio with me. I mentioned them [and our environmental consultant, Dorothea Pereira] as part of our presentation, but I didn't play them up as design equals.
I am curious about your statement above. Do you think that having an LPGA player as part of the design team is crucial in order to get the design right -- that we designers don't understand how to challenge the LPGA players? Or are you saying that it's important only for symbolism? From the standpoint of design alone, I don't see why having a woman professional on the team is any more important than having a male Tour pro -- which obviously wasn't important.
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Tom,
Good question.
I think that if it's for symbolism and seen that way then it works against you. If it's shown to be substantive then it helps you. That committee was pretty sharp, as were the technical teams behind them that did their investigations into various site plans.
I won't speculate on the relationship that Ochoa, Sorenstam and Webb had with their respective teams. But I think that the committee did their homework and would have seen through it if any women showing up were not well versed with the plan and didn't contribute to an understanding of strategy, junior golf development, the layout. Again, I have no idea what the three women named above contributed. I do know that Amy Alcott has been familiar with Gil's work. She came out and spent time with him at LACC-North. And that because she's been off the Tour so long and exploring a post-LPGA career move she's been engaged in serious discussions about design, course range and golf academy set up, etc. I think the fact that she answers her own phone calls and texts and doesn't have to rely upon an intermediate agent makes her more real, more accessible. And her marquee value as a player being well behind her, she can't fall back on being a celebrity or a big name and has to rely upon her acumen and wisdom watching the evolution of women's golf and junior golf (and men's golf).
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Congrats to Gil- Considering I was fortunate enough to have dinner with him last week and briefly discuss the Olympic bid this obviously is a great ending for him and his crew. I have been lucky enough to know Gil from when my old club Alpine CC was looking at hiring him to do restoration work, I'm glad now that he will continue to add to his fantastic original design portfolio. Gil has always been a quintessential gentleman and I cannot thank him enough for the pleasure of his company recently and just being a damn great designer.
But one little addendum, besides Gil's other partners (Jim, Amy etc) who did their part to get the Olympic job, I believe one man in La Habra California also helped on Gil's presentation and detail work and I know to him this has brought great, wanton joy. Congrats Tommy..
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Hats off to Gil! Terrific choice, surprising — stunning even — and a great day for those of us who reasoned that one of the mega names would have the edge. (I was prepared for any choice, but the left-brain part of me would have bet differently than the decision.)
The routing is very interesting and it will be fun to watch it unfold. Hopefully someone can muster enough convincing to engage one of the satellite services to capture daily snapshots of the work from space. That would be a great and everlasting memory for golf — and Gil.
Amy is a very passionate person about kids, golf and especially girls coming into the game. I found her a great choice...obviously so did the selection committee and IOC.
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I'm pretty sure that Hawtree, RTJII, Gary Player and Tom Doak did not include a woman specifically as such on the design team for her LPGA/playing/design credentials.
There might have been some women involved on their respective environmental teams, but not in the room as part of the presentation by the above-named four teams for the sake of symbolism or substance.
Be it symbolism or substance, Alcott is part of the dialogue -- even sometimes even in the place of Gil. Witness this NY Times piece:
"In what amounts to the first golfing upset of the 2016 Summer Olympics, Jack Nicklaus, Annika Sorenstam, Greg Norman, Lorena Ochoa and Gary Player lost out to Amy Alcott in the competition to design the course for the Rio de Janeiro Games."
http://onpar.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/07/rio-committee-chooses-design-for-olympic-golf-course/?ref=sports (http://onpar.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/07/rio-committee-chooses-design-for-olympic-golf-course/?ref=sports)
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I'm pretty sure that Hawtree, RTJII, Gary Player and Tom Doak did not include a woman specifically as such on the design team for her LPGA/playing/design credentials.
There might have been some women involved on their respective environmental teams, but not in the room as part of the presentation by the above-named four teams for the sake of symbolism or substance.
Be it symbolism or substance, Alcott is part of the dialogue -- even sometimes even in the place of Gil. Witness this NY Times piece:
"In what amounts to the first golfing upset of the 2016 Summer Olympics, Jack Nicklaus, Annika Sorenstam, Greg Norman, Lorena Ochoa and Gary Player lost out to Amy Alcott in the competition to design the course for the Rio de Janeiro Games."
http://onpar.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/07/rio-committee-chooses-design-for-olympic-golf-course/?ref=sports (http://onpar.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/07/rio-committee-chooses-design-for-olympic-golf-course/?ref=sports)
Headline on this story in the print edition of the NY Times delivered to my house today: Olympic Design to Alcott.
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Brad - thanks much for your post #70 and the details/insights. It strikes me though that, the committee (and technical teams) being as sharp and serious-minded as you say, they might have been impressed most of all by Gil having come down to Rio a year before the process had even begun. To use plain language: that showed them that he was the 'hungry', and hungry in just the right way. And that kind of hunger is great -- but I think it will also make the road ahead even harder for Gil and his team than it would normally be. Because once decision-makers know you're hungry -- that you care, and want to do things right -- they have a tendency to try to 'leverage' that caring to get their opinions/wishes heard, i.e. to try to take advantage of the fact that someone is willing to listen. (On the other end of the spectrum, I'm reminded of the story of Francis Coppola in his hey-day: he was asked why he spent money on his films so lavishly, why he always went over budget. And he said -- and this is fascinating to me -- that he was already beholding to the producers for providing the money, and that if he showed them for even one second that he cared at all about their money he'd be lost/a slave to them; in Coppola's mind, he had to take away their leverage by constantly showing them that he didn't give a sh-t about them or their money). Anyway - everything I've read here and elsewhere suggests that Gil will be able to handle it; but it will be a challenge it seems to me.
Peter
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Appearance, guise, psychology -- all of that is fine to speculate. The Rio 2016 group did their homework, meticulously reviewed the plans, and was far more sophisticated in its approach and knowledge of course design and course architecture internationally than they have been given credit fo.
Gil's plan, as far as i have been able to tell, took seriously all of the challenges posed by the site in ways that just blew the committee away. I'll be writing this up in great detail for Golfweek, but what won the day was that their enthusiasm and commitment of spirit were matched by expertise that ran deep and wide, was well-presented in 45 minutes and withstood technical scrutiny before and after.
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Peter says:
"It strikes me though that, the committee (and technical teams) being as sharp and serious-minded as you say, they might have been impressed most of all by Gil having come down to Rio a year before the process had even begun. To use plain language: that showed them that he was the 'hungry', and hungry in just the right way. And that kind of hunger is great -- but I think it will also make the road ahead even harder for Gil and his team than it would normally be. Because once decision-makers know you're hungry -- that you care, and want to do things right -- they have a tendency to try to 'leverage' that caring to get their opinions/wishes heard, i.e. to try to take advantage of the fact that someone is willing to listen."
Interesting take. I hope someone - Gil?, Brad? - writes an after action report after the Olympics have concluded. It will make for a fascinating read.
Even better is that we get to repeat this exercise every four years - forever.
Bob
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I'm pretty sure that Hawtree, RTJII, Gary Player and Tom Doak did not include a woman specifically as such on the design team for her LPGA/playing/design credentials.
There might have been some women involved on their respective environmental teams, but not in the room as part of the presentation by the above-named four teams for the sake of symbolism or substance.
Be it symbolism or substance, Alcott is part of the dialogue -- even sometimes even in the place of Gil. Witness this NY Times piece:
"In what amounts to the first golfing upset of the 2016 Summer Olympics, Jack Nicklaus, Annika Sorenstam, Greg Norman, Lorena Ochoa and Gary Player lost out to Amy Alcott in the competition to design the course for the Rio de Janeiro Games."
http://onpar.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/07/rio-committee-chooses-design-for-olympic-golf-course/?ref=sports (http://onpar.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/07/rio-committee-chooses-design-for-olympic-golf-course/?ref=sports)
Headline on this story in the print edition of the NY Times delivered to my house today: Olympic Design to Alcott.
A fantastic gaff on the NYT's part. Hopefully this selection can turn the stereotype amongst the general public and uninformed journalists that pros are the only ones designing golf courses. Shame on you NYT for releasing that headline.
Moving on, here is an interesting quote from Dr. Klein above.
...but what won the day was that their enthusiasm and commitment of spirit were matched by expertise that ran deep and wide, was well-presented in 45 minutes and withstood technical scrutiny before and after
I think it would be hard not to say this about whomever won the bid. I would expect nothing less from a selection of this magnitude. Make no mistake, Gil has some rather large players on his side. The truest wish I have is for his design ethos to carry the day and the AECOM's and Trumps of the world to become supporters of that ethos and not the more populist design paradigms of the past few decades. The watershed moment of this entire selection is for a classic design process and playability (re: fun) to become common and accepted popularly. Not chided as unfair and extreme.
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8) Ben,
"Popuslist design paradigms" ... sounds like loaded language or a disertation to me!
s
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It does seem the committee did their job, and I like the fact that they really scrutinized the presentations and concepts they made the finalists go through.
As a finalist in many similar (albeit less magnitude) presentations, I always try to get feedback, and inevitably, they say they didn't see my committment to "X" issue. I know I mentioned it, but the key is to effectively make your case for their hot buttons, rather than just list them in sort of obligatory fashion.
Anyway, good to see good old hard work, enthusiasm and thinking pay off as the process is designed to be. Best presentation wins! Much better than "You were good, but we decided to go with the famous guy." Of course it is hard to stand out when presenting against that level of competition, who all presumably wanted the job just as much. That Gil and Co. managed to do so is very impressive.
Still wondering if he was the "dark horse" that was rumored. I suspect he was.
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Loved Gil's work at Soule Park and Rustic where we played the Kings Putter a couple of years ago. Has he done any courses in Northern California?
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If they had to choose between Hanse and Doak only, why do people think they picked Hanse? Hanse is a fine architect, but I would argue that Doak is more accomplished and better. Does it have something to do with Hanse having redone Boston and done Castle Stuart, verus Doak not having a track record on courses played on the tours IIRC, with the slight exception of the Kiwi challenge a few years back?
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Tom Doak does have a bit of an open flank in Europe, especially continental Europe, which is an important market for the European Tour. However, I haven't seen too much of Gil Hanse over here either, so I guess lack of European exposure wasn't a factor. It would have had to go to Nicklaus or Player if that were the case.
"Tour credibility" - no, you'd have to give that to Nicklaus or RTJ.
My personal guess - and it is totally devoid of inside knowledge - is that the committee actually looked at the presentations and picked the one they liked best, knowing that of the fine lot of finalists anyone would be able to build a great course. It's perhaps a matter of preference in the end.
Ulrich
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Either way, it's a Gold Star day for GCA.
The fact that Gil won and the "US Open Doctor" type didn't speaks volumes about the potential for great GCA in the future.
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If they had to choose between Hanse and Doak only, why do people think they picked Hanse? Hanse is a fine architect, but I would argue that Doak is more accomplished and better. Does it have something to do with Hanse having redone Boston and done Castle Stuart, verus Doak not having a track record on courses played on the tours IIRC, with the slight exception of the Kiwi challenge a few years back?
I think Castle Stuart had a big part in the decision.how many on the committee have seen it as compared to Pacific Dunes? Who was on the committee?
Anthony
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Anthony
I think you're right about Castle Stuart. Peter Dawson of the R&A was on the panel so he would have been more than familiar with that as he would also be of Hanse's earlier design of the Craighead course at Crail.
Astravidres
Castle Stuart holding the Scottisdh Open was, I imagine, more about functionality of the design in terms of visitors and facilities etc. As good a course as it is the winning score after 3 rounds was 20 under so doesn't really say Hanse can provide the conventional championship course, assuming that the panel was thinking in those terms. Also remember the next course touted to host the Scottish Open after Castle Stuart is/was the Doak designed Rennaissance.
Niall
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As good a course as it is the winning score after 3 rounds was 20 under so doesn't really say Hanse can provide the conventional championship course, assuming that the panel was thinking in those terms.
Niall,
That's one of the reason this is exciting. Apparently they weren't thinking exclusively in those terms.
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Jud
Do you know in what terms they were thinking of ? As far as I know no one has posted the criteria for the comp. Whats to say the set up as opposed to the design might be along standard Tour lines. How far "forward" would golf design be then ?
Niall
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Not many have mentioned Amy Alcott in this thread. I'm thinking that having Amy on board was an astute decision given that Amy developed as a golfer in an environment much like what the Brazilians may be envisioning for Rio. Specifically she developed as a public course player in a large population city, Los Angeles.
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Further speculation: perhaps Gil Hanse was the only architect, who was willing to relocate to Brazil and oversee construction of the course personally from start to finish?
Ulrich
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Further speculation: perhaps Gil Hanse was the only architect, who was willing to relocate to Brazil and oversee construction of the course personally from start to finish?
Ulrich
Ulrich:
I can tell you for sure he is the only architect that was willing to do so.
I considered making the same offer, but did not. I believe the past ten years have proven that our model [an on-site associate and shapers, and me visiting for a few days at a time] yields consistently excellent results, but I knew that the committee wanted to hear that level of commitment. I did bring Brian Schneider with me to Rio as part of our presentation, and I think he made a very good impression -- but no one on that committee has ever been to Barnbougle to see what he can do.
That Gil is willing to move his family down there for the duration, more power to him. I'm sure Mike Keiser doesn't mind waiting another year to build another course in Bandon to allow it to happen. As for myself, I have some other very important commitments for the next two years, and I couldn't abandon them to go all in on the Olympics.
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Tom,
fair enough, your track record proves that your model works. Ironically, Gil Hanse wouldn't have been good enough as on-site man while he worked for you :)
However, I do believe that Gil could use your model (Jim Wagner on site and him visiting for a few days) in Bandon and other places, while he lives in Brazil.
Ulrich
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they just talked to Gil during the 3rd round...he is moving his family down to Brazil while he works on the course...
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In Golf World Monday has an official overlay of the Rio course routing provided by Hanse:
http://www.golfworldmonday.com/golfworldmonday/201203-12/?pg=14&pm=1&u1=friend#pg14 (http://www.golfworldmonday.com/golfworldmonday/201203-12/?pg=14&pm=1&u1=friend#pg14)
(http://i1089.photobucket.com/albums/i352/hriefs/Riorouting.jpg)
Some other comments from Shackelford in the piece:
- Sandy site with a Seminole-meets-Sand Belt look
- #16 "morphs elements of the Road Hole with Riviera #10, with a boundary tempting players to drive along its edge to best open up an easier shot at the hole."
- Redan-like 17th
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USGA website has the 1st interview with International Golf Federation head Antony Scanlon about the Rio design competition & Hanse.
An excerpt via GeoffShackleford.com:
Scanlon: All eight candidates gave exceptional presentations, and the Jury Panel was very impressed with each one. But through final evaluations, the overriding belief was that Hanse Golf Course Design did the best job overall of addressing the broad range of the criteria that were set forth from the outset in the request for proposals. We were particularly impressed with his ideas on design characteristics and hands-on creativity, and consideration for the facility’s legacy of promoting and developing golf in Brazil and globally.
There also are numerous issues to consider beyond the competitive design of the course for male and female Olympians, from access and flow of spectators during competition, to long-term maintenance and operation of the course, to the importance of environmental sustainability and the integration of native vegetation. In the end, we were very comfortable with Gil Hanse’s proposal and believe it will provide an outstanding Olympic venue as well as a golf course that will serve as a lasting legacy through the development and nurturing of golfers long after the Games.
http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2012/4/13/igf-head-on-hanse-selection-we-were-particularly-impressed-w.html (http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2012/4/13/igf-head-on-hanse-selection-we-were-particularly-impressed-w.html)
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Not really sure what this means a few posts up: Ironically, Gil Hanse wouldn't have been good enough as on-site man while he worked for you
Kinda hoping it's an inside joke or a language-barrier thing. Good enough for whom?
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Interesting to see the turning points of the playing line are actually shown in the Bunkers at Holes 2, 10 and 12.
Of course the player can choose his own turning point but nevertheless one doesn't often seen it drawn as such.
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Ronald, I wrote that.
My speculation was that one of the deciding factors was that Hanse was the only architect willing to relocate to Brazil and oversee construction of the course personally. All other architects would have sent an associate as on-site man. So, amongst others, Tom Doak's associate wasn't deemed to be good enough. Ironically that would have been Gil Hanse a couple of years ago.
Ulrich
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Well, since this is a GCA discussion group, and we now have a concept plan to nit-pick over, and we are a bunch of armchair archies (for the most part ;) )... I'll stick the first toe in the water and say it. Doesn't this routing call some errant shot conflict into question? It seems relatively obvious on the concept plan that 1-18 have a slice to slice conflict 11-12 hook to hook; 3-13 slice to slice; 1-7 to lesser extent hook to hook. All that being said and we really can't know what the line of sight, elevations, contouring and shaping work will do to mitigate any of these concerns. And, these concerns may not be as great for the best players in the world. But, they do want this to be a launching pad for the growth of golf in Brazil, and that means many less skilled, and serial slicers and hookers...
It seems to me that they are going to be taking a lot of material from creating those lakes to use for feature shaping and spectator mounds, along with hole corridor definition. So, I wonder if we are not looking more of a Whistling Straits, Chambers Bay sort of approach, than a Kiawah Ocean Course, or even Gil's own Castle Stuart maybe being less of an earth moving project (not that CS wasn't to that extent). So, if we can follow the progress, and perhaps Gil and crew can provide on-going YouTube or embedded video of their construction progress, as they did with CS, we armchair archies may be in for a special on-going treat and plenty to yammer about. Go Gil!!! We in the peanut gallery are at your disposal for consultations... ::) ;) ;D
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Well, since this is a GCA discussion group, and we now have a concept plan to nit-pick over, and we are a bunch of armchair archies (for the most part ;) )... I'll stick the first toe in the water and say it. Doesn't this routing call some errant shot conflict into question? It seems relatively obvious on the concept plan that 1-18 have a slice to slice conflict 11-12 hook to hook; 3-13 slice to slice; 1-7 to lesser extent hook to hook. All that being said and we really can't know what the line of sight, elevations, contouring and shaping work will do to mitigate any of these concerns. And, these concerns may not be as great for the best players in the world. But, they do want this to be a launching pad for the growth of golf in Brazil, and that means many less skilled, and serial slicers and hookers...
It seems to me that they are going to be taking a lot of material from creating those lakes to use for feature shaping and spectator mounds, along with hole corridor definition. So, I wonder if we are not looking more of a Whistling Straits, Chambers Bay sort of approach, than a Kiawah Ocean Course, or even Gil's own Castle Stuart maybe being less of an earth moving project (not that CS wasn't to that extent). So, if we can follow the progress, and perhaps Gil and crew can provide on-going YouTube or embedded video of their construction progress, as they did with CS, we armchair archies may be in for a special on-going treat and plenty to yammer about. Go Gil!!! We in the peanut gallery are at your disposal for consultations... ::) ;) ;D
Regarding driving zone conflicts, I don't see it as a huge problem.
All the shared fairways and DZ conflicts you mention anticipate a distance offset in the DZ for the shared holes. For instance, drives from 1 likely won't reach 7 or 18, and even if a mammoth drive is hit on any one of those holes offline, there are hazards in the way. Same goes for hole 13 since in order to hit it at hole 3 the drives would have to travel shorter than anticipated (though this might be the most dangerous one out there). Hanse has relied on this offset technique before, with the example I've seen first hand on holes 2 and 5 at Rustic Canyon. While the 5th green is close to the second fairway, it's 320+ to reach it, making it safe 99% of the time.
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some highlights from an article in the current issue of Golfweek:
"...encouraged to hear from a very authoritative source that there's still a fair chance for something other than 72-hole individual stroke play at the 2016 Olympics..."
"the planned design includes what Hanse refers to as "half-par holes" the kind that involve lots of risk/reward and are ideal for match play."
"I myself would like to see some sort of team format", (Peter) Dawson tole the Forecaddie. Turns out that the announced 72-hole stroke-play format is not final and "was based upon feedback from the top players."
"Dawson cautioned the Man Out Front that while "The IOC is open to a team competition...they don't like team play simply to be the addition of individual performances" and would prefer an "interactive format.""