Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Ben Sims on February 27, 2012, 02:32:11 PM
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A century of history has given contextual reference to the importance of Charles Blair Macdonald and his crowning acheivement, National Golf Links. CB Mac' and NGLA's impact on golf in America--both in his proteges and the courses that NGLA inspired--cannot be overestimated. It could be argued that a generation of architects and golf courses got their lead from both him and NGLA. History gives us this context.
What will Pete Dye's historical legacy's be in 100 years? I would argue that Pete Dye--once his courses and the courses of his protege's are given historical context--will be considered the pre-imminent architect of the last half of the 20th century. Though RTJ, Nicklaus and Fazio all deserve some merit in that conversation, their protege's impact on golf has been less than that of Pete Dye.
Going further, what will Sand Hill's historical legacy be in a century? My opinion is that it will have a sort of NGLA-ish stature among the other courses of its era. The model started by Sand Hills has inspired dozens of dreamers around the world to use the best sites for golf that are available, no matter the location. The result of Dye's mentorship and Sand Hill's sheer ballsiness has been two decades of designs that have changed golf architecture forever. Is this too majestic a title to bestow upon Mr. Dye and Sand Hills? What other elements are at play?
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I think Pete Dye is the Art Blakey of GCA. i.e. he'll be remembered more for all his talented offspring than for his own legacy of golf courses. Sand Hills will rightfully be seen as the progenitor of the modern minimalist movement. (by the way wasn't High Pointe done earlier?)
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Bill Coore's designs with Ben Crenshaw seem to have little correlation to the style he would have learned from working for Pete Dye. Thoughts?
I haven't been to Sand Hills, but see very little taken from say PGA West.
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I think Pete Dye is the Art Blakey of GCA. i.e. he'll be remembered more for all his talented offspring than for his own legacy of golf courses. Sand Hills will rightfully be seen as the progenitor of the modern minimalist movement. (by the way wasn't High Pointe done earlier?)
Jud,
High Pointe was 1989 and Kapalua was also built before, in 1991. But I don't think either qualifies as the seminal work that launched an age of design. Sand Hills is the daddy.
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I think Pete Dye is the Art Blakey of GCA. i.e. he'll be remembered more for all his talented offspring than for his own legacy of golf courses.
Jud...really? Tom Doak and Bill Coore may be well known around here, but to the average golfer Pete Dye has to be a much bigger name. I think Pete Dye's work is very strong, innovative beyond its years, and has stood the test of time and technology. I think Pete Dye is closer to CBM, Raynor, & MacKenzie than someone known mostly for his great pupils.
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I'm hoping that Tom Doak will chime in here, since he and Bill Coore started out with Dye, and should have the best understanding of Dye's relationship with the Sand Hills minimalist movement, if you might characterize that whole early 199s scene, and Dye's overall impact on GCA development of construction and scope of project result.
But, if I understand some of Tom Doak's previous comments related to this subject, and other word of mouth observation of Dye's roll in the development of Sand Hills GC in particular, Dye deferred a roll in SHGC when Youngscapp asked him to come out and take a look at the property and evaluate the development overall prospects. That may have come on the heels of Whitten possibly suggesting to Youngscapp after his development of Firethorn, that he ought to consider the Sand Hills as a potential site of new minimalist golf course development taking advantage of the incredible sand hills, previously untapped.
I don't think that sand hill minimalist, or at least collaboration and in-harmony with natural golf terrain idealism to build a pure upon the earth golf design could or should go back to Mr. Dye. I think Pete Dye's legacy lies in big, bold, new age challenging designs that had their own set of design characteristics, that were anything but minimalist. Dye's legacy in my mind is one who not only could tame the land and reform it into a golf venue, but a golf venue that would be highly challenging to the burgeoning professional game, with need for bold visuals for TV, and tough challenges for advances in B&I technology. Anything we readily think of as a Pete Dye project is anything but minimalist. And, most of us think of sand hills projects as at least flirting with minimalism.
So to conclude, I think Dye can only be thought of as the one that deferred involvement in the sand hills movement, and stuck with his big developments and wealthy developers that could afford his construction theatrics. I think Pete Dye's protege's are all over the map in which category of golf design philosophy they follow, and some follow multiple ones.
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Yes Doak's and Coore's best courses are amazing and highly ranked but Dye holds his own beautifully in about any list. Further, his courses are older than the Doak/Coore courses generally and therefore the shine has had plenty of time to wear off -- not that the shine will wear off PacDunes or Sand Hills.
I checked golfweek's top 100 quickly. Dye has 6 top 20 courses numbers 4, 9, 10, 17, 18, and 20 with many more ranked below that. Btw Harbor Town is ranked 42 on that list which I don't get at all... In additon to HT, TPC Sawgrass and The Ocean Course will be talked about forever. I think all 3 of those are generally underrated.
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In additon to HT, TPC Sawgrass and The Ocean Course will be talked about forever. I think all 3 of those are generally underrated.
In my opinion you could add Whistling Straits, Blackwolf Run, Crooked Stick, The Golf Club, & Long Cove to your list above.
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I think Pete Dye is the Art Blakey of GCA. i.e. he'll be remembered more for all his talented offspring than for his own legacy of golf courses.
Jud...really? Tom Doak and Bill Coore may be well known around here, but to the average golfer Pete Dye has to be a much bigger name.
Do you think this will be the case in 50 years?
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I think Pete Dye is the Art Blakey of GCA. i.e. he'll be remembered more for all his talented offspring than for his own legacy of golf courses.
Jud...really? Tom Doak and Bill Coore may be well known around here, but to the average golfer Pete Dye has to be a much bigger name.
Do you think this will be the case in 50 years?
Absolutely. No offense to Tom Doak, Gil Hanse, or Bill Coore...but a hell of a lot more people know about Whistling Straits, TPC Sawgrass, and The Ocean Course than Pacific Dunes, Boston Golf Club, and Sand Hills. While their work is really great, ultimately isn't the modern minimalist age mostly a niche movement?
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In my opinion you could add Whistling Straits, Blackwolf Run, Crooked Stick, The Golf Club, & Long Cove to your list above.
Pat - you think Whistling Straights is underrated? I've never played, but I've heard many an opinion that the course is overrated, if anything.
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Dye is truly one of the heavy weights of golf design. He is up there with all the best of the golden age era architects. He is without a doubt a top 3 to 5 architect of all time. When you rank that high on the list it is just a matter of personal preference in how you rank them. The man has at least a dozen 7 on 10's (Doak scale).
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In my opinion you could add Whistling Straits, Blackwolf Run, Crooked Stick, The Golf Club, & Long Cove to your list above.
Pat - you think Whistling Straights is underrated? I've never played, but I've heard many an opinion that the course is overrated, if anything.
George,
Sorry, I was mostly referring to the comment "In additon to HT, TPC Sawgrass and The Ocean Course will be talked about forever."
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I think Pete Dye is the Art Blakey of GCA. i.e. he'll be remembered more for all his talented offspring than for his own legacy of golf courses.
Jud...really? Tom Doak and Bill Coore may be well known around here, but to the average golfer Pete Dye has to be a much bigger name.
Do you think this will be the case in 50 years?
Absolutely. No offense to Tom Doak, Gil Hanse, or Bill Coore...but a hell of a lot more people know about Whistling Straits, TPC Sawgrass, and The Ocean Course than Pacific Dunes, Boston Golf Club, and Sand Hills. While their work is really great, ultimately isn't the modern minimalist age mostly a niche movement?
Pat,
More people know about Whistling Straits, TPC Sawgrass and The Ocean Course than know about Pine Valley, Cypress Point, or NGLA. What's your point? Legacy and popularity are two different things.
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PCraig: I'd wager that about as many people know about Pacific Dunes as about Whistling Straits. Tournaments aren't everything.
Ben: Trying to predict whose legacy will be more important in 50-100 years is a pretty inexact science -- in fact, it's just pure speculation. Plus, the answer depends at least in part on who gets to write the history when it comes time. All I can say is that I've known Pete Dye and Bill Coore since 1981, and I have never heard either of them waste a minute's time wondering how history will treat them. They are only focused on building the best projects they can build.
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I think Dye's largest legacy will be reversing the school of golf course architecture of Robert Trent Jones of building golf courses that were straightforward tests of golf - hard par, easy bogey - and which are epitomized by places like Firestone South, Hazeltine and others. To my knowledge, Dye was really the first architect to return to a strategic school and in my opinion used angles as well as any architect. I think his trademarks will always be Kiawah Ocean, Harbor Town, Whistling, The Golf Club, Sawgrass, Pete Dye GC and Casa de Campo - Teeth of the Dog.
However, I don't think he will receive (nor does he deserve) any credit for the minimalist movement in golf course architecture. I think the names of Coore and Doak will be provided credit for this movement and surely Sand Hills will be the course that most believe started it all (even though I think Tom Doak was writing about it before this course). Along with Sand Hills, I think Bandon Dunes will be the showplace of the minimalist movement (or just American links golf :) for a long time. I don't think it is any coincedence that Doak and Coore designed 4 of the 5 courses there.
I think Dye's legacy re: those that worked under him will be that of a nice and giving man that worked hard and was willing to share what he knew with others - ON SITE - which I am sure included his thoughts on strategic architecture. If anything, he certainly is underestimated for his ability to identify talented people.
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For me Pete Dye was a guy that loved design and took what he learned as a traveling golfer and incorperated it into his own work. Didn't CB do the same?
Anthony
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Pat,
There's a dozen courses on Golf Magazine's US top 100 that could arguably be called minimalist with perhaps 3 or 4 more in the pipeline. Combined with the ascendance of Bandon Dunes resort, I think it's well beyond a niche movement at this point.
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I think Dye's largest legacy will be reversing the school of golf course architecture of Robert Trent Jones of building golf courses that were straightforward tests of golf - hard par, easy bogey - and which are epitomized by places like Firestone South, Hazeltine and others. Dye was really the first architect to return to a strategic school and in my opinion used angles as well as any architect. I think his trademarks will always be Kiawah Ocean, Harbor Town, Whistling, The Golf Club, Sawgrass, Pete Dye GC and Casa de Campo - Teeth of the Dog. Others like Blackwolf Run, French Lick, Honors and Long Cove also will stand the test of time.
However, I don't think he will receive (nor does he deserve) any credit for the minimalist movement in golf course architecture. I think the names of Coore and Doak will be provided credit for this movement and surely Sand Hills will be the course that most believe started it all (even though I think Tom Doak was writing about it before this course). Along with Sand Hills, I think Bandon Dunes will be the showplace of the minimalist movement for a long time. I don't think it is any coincedence that Doak and Coore designed 4 of the 5 courses there.
I think Dye's legacy re: those that worked under him will be that of a nice and giving man that worked hard and was willing to share what he knew with others - which I am sure included his thoughts on strategic architecture. If anything, he certainly is underestimated for his ability to identify talented people.
Hmm ... I'm not sure if Pete was really a genius at identifying talented people ... not like MacKenzie, anyway. The legacy of Pete Dye is that he gave so many of us a chance to learn ... and, as you say, he was willing to share everything he knew with anyone who showed a sincere interest. I remember sitting with P.B. Dye and one of his friends one night and as P.B. was expounding on how to build courses, his friend interrupted to ask if it was wise to share all of that with me. His response? "If Tom Doak is smart enough to understand all this and go out and build better courses than we can, more power to him." That is the Dyes in a nutshell.
As for architecture, the real change from Mr. Jones to Mr. Dye was not so much style as METHOD. Everyone from the Jones camp learned to design courses by drawing plans. Everyone that worked for Pete learned to go out and get dirty building their own courses. THAT is the real connection between Pete and all of us minimalists that have come since.
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Legacy and popularity are two different things.
Not always. I'm not comparing PV, CPC, or NGLA to any of Pete Dye's designs, only refuting the statement that Pete Dye will be known more for his former pupils' courses than his own.
Tom_Doak:
I'd take that bet. :)
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As for architecture, the real change from Mr. Jones to Mr. Dye was not so much style as METHOD. Everyone from the Jones camp learned to design courses by drawing plans. Everyone that worked for Pete learned to go out and get dirty building their own courses. THAT is the real connection between Pete and all of us minimalists that have come since.
Winner, winner, chicken dinner. I think that was the answer everyone was waiting for.
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Ben: Trying to predict whose legacy will be more important in 50-100 years is a pretty inexact science -- in fact, it's just pure speculation. Plus, the answer depends at least in part on who gets to write the history when it comes time. All I can say is that I've known Pete Dye and Bill Coore since 1981, and I have never heard either of them waste a minute's time wondering how history will treat them. They are only focused on building the best projects they can build.
Tom,
Mostly I was bored and the weather is bad down here, not much training today. So I let myself ramble.
Having met Bill Coore once, and read yours and many others' stories about Pete Dye, I wouldn't expect them to give two oysters about how they'll be remembered. That's probably why they've built so many great courses. They were out doing stuff rather than making press releases. Legacy is a funny thing. It often turns into something it never was to begin with. I don't think even the most accurate of prognositcators would've expected something like Old Macdonald to be born of CB Mac and NGLA's legacy circa 1910. That's all I was trying to say. I was just wondering if Mr. Dye or those involved with Sand Hills ever really knew how much of an impact they were making.
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For the record, I added the words "ON SITE" in my post before Tom posted his response. I am not enough of a dope to add the words after his response. As proven regularly, I am not concerned about being wrong more often than not.
For those that have not read it, Pete Dye's book "Bury Me in a Pot bunker' is a wonderful read and full of funny stories. Also, you really get a sense of how unconcerned he is about other people's perceptions.
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what will Sand Hill's historical legacy be in a century?
Sand Hills has morphed into something larger than itself. It has become, and will remain, one of the truly great golf courses in the history of the game. Side by side with The Old Course, The National Golf Links of America, Pebble Beach, and a few others. All of these courses are great for the playing of the game, or so I'm told, but they all have a legend, an aura, that is perhaps bigger (and better) than the courses themselves.
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I think Pete Dye is the Art Blakey of GCA. i.e. he'll be remembered more for all his talented offspring than for his own legacy of golf courses. Sand Hills will rightfully be seen as the progenitor of the modern minimalist movement. (by the way wasn't High Pointe done earlier?)
Art Blakey doesn't really have any famous offspring, that I know of... do you mean members of his band?
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I remember sitting with P.B. Dye and one of his friends one night and as P.B. was expounding on how to build courses, his friend interrupted to ask if it was wise to share all of that with me. His response? "If Tom Doak is smart enough to understand all this and go out and build better courses than we can, more power to him." That is the Dyes in a nutshell.
Tom
Is P.B.'s best course better than your worst course?
Are any of the Dye's best courses better than any of Bill's or your worst courses since you've struck out on your own?
Cheers
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Mike:
Come on, man.
I've only seen two of P.B.'s courses -- one of which was clearly better than my own worst course. And I hope I have as many excellent courses to my name when I retire as P.B.'s dad has.
I also hope I've given as many other young people a chance to get into the business as Pete has.
P.S. I don't think P.B. really thought I'd ever get to where I am today, but I am sure he meant what he said, anyway.
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What will Pete Dye's historical legacy's be in 100 years? I would argue that Pete Dye--once his courses and the courses of his protege's are given historical context--will be considered the pre-imminent architect of the last half of the 20th century. Though RTJ, Nicklaus and Fazio all deserve some merit in that conversation, their protege's impact on golf has been less than that of Pete Dye.
He'll be judged only on his work.
Mr. Colt is judged for his courses, not for his many wonderful associates.
His place in the World Golf Hall of Fame says volumes about his legacy.
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I remember sitting with P.B. Dye and one of his friends one night and as P.B. was expounding on how to build courses, his friend interrupted to ask if it was wise to share all of that with me. His response? "If Tom Doak is smart enough to understand all this and go out and build better courses than we can, more power to him." That is the Dyes in a nutshell.
Tom
Is P.B.'s best course better than your worst course?
Are any of the Dye's best courses better than any of Bill's or your worst courses since you've struck out on your own?
Cheers
Mike, are you serious? Please tell me you are not. Tom started building courses in the late 80s. So Tom's worst course would have to be better than Kiawah, Pete Dye Golf Club and Whistling Straits, just to name 3 top 100 courses Dye has build since about 1990. You could also add other highly noteable designs such as Bulle Rock, French Lick and Colleton River.
The ironic thing is that many have argued that Dye's work has declined in quality since the mid 80s. I am not about to refute that here, however if Dye only built those courses I named above he would still go down as a great designer. Goes to show how high his overall body of work is.
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Well, Bulle Rock is definitely worse than the worst Doak I have ever played. Still wish I had ventured over to Beechtree before it closed instead.
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Tim
I had a chance to play Beechtree 2 or 3 times one weekend. I ate lunch at Bulle Rock twice, rode the course and went back to Beechtree to play again. Not even close.
Matt
I was figuring after Whistling was built - didn't remember it was '98 - even though it had/has its problems too.
I've played Kiawah, Sawgrass, Whistling Straits, Dye Fore -- I prefer The Golf Club & Teeth of the Dog
Come on Tom :)
I like Perry and have had a good number of laughs with him over the last 5 or 6 years.
I've even heard a few stories about your earliest days... and some very good Pete stories.
I've never met P.B. nor am I aware of any of his work.
I was just guessing based on some pictures I've seen of some strange stuff.
What are the worst holes you've ever built(#s 1-18 like the most disappointing thread)?
Cheers
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Mike, are you serious? Please tell me you are not. Tom started building courses in the late 80s. So Tom's worst course would have to be better than Kiawah, Pete Dye Golf Club and Whistling Straits, just to name 3 top 100 courses Dye has build since about 1990. You could also add other highly noteable designs such as Bulle Rock, French Lick and Colleton River.
The ironic thing is that many have argued that Dye's work has declined in quality since the mid 80s. I am not about to refute that here, however if Dye only built those courses I named above he would still go down as a great designer. Goes to show how high his overall body of work is.
Matt,
Reread. Mike specifically wrote "P.B." That's Paul Burke Dye, Pete's youngest.
http://dyedesigns.com/golf/dye-family-2/p-b-dye/
Here's an interesting sentence off Pete Dye's wikipedia article.
Many of the best young golf architects have "pushed dirt" for Pete, including Bill Coore, Tom Doak, John Harbottle, Butch Laporte, Tim Liddy, Scott Poole, David Postlewaite, Lee Schmidt, Keith Sparkman, Jim Urbina, Bobby Weed, Rod Whitman and Abe Wilson.
I casually perused other golf architects' entries on wikipedia, and Mr. Dye's is the only one that even has this much detail about his design apprentices. I believe this supports my argument that he may in time be remembered for a generation of greatness that he helped along.
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Wikipedia, Ben?
Isn't what shows up on Wikipedia a function of who writes it and what THEY want it to say? [Perhaps Abe Wilson wrote it, since I do not know who Abe Wilson is. Plus, whoever it was didn't know how to spell David Postlethwait's name correctly.]
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What is PB Dye's best course? I played Debordieu last weekend which is a Pete/PB Dye (not sure who really focused more?) and liked it more than on previous playings. It was good.
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Well, if Wikipedia says so, I guess the argument's over. ::) ;)
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PB's Fisher Island 9-hole course off Miami is a decent effort. To me though all you have to do is look at two courses at the Legends resort in Myrtle, Heathland and Moorland, and draw your own conclusion...
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Tom and Pat,
Where's Ian Larson when I need him to preach on technology! You guys can bemoan an online source if you want, but seriously, look it up. Google "wikipedia accuracy" and you'll find all kinds of studies that show wikipedia to be as accurate--or, conversely, as erroneous--as Encyclopedia Brittanica and other respected information sources.
Particular to that sentence I quoted above, there were two references linked.
http://www.floridagolfmagazine.com/FGMwinter2009/PeteDye2008HOF-Induction.html
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/feature-interview/pete-dye/
All I am saying is that in my opinion, Pete Dye will have a legacy in 100 years that reaches far past his work. Sand Hills will be much more than just a great golf course.
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Ben-
Your point is taken, he will leave a legacy of being a great mentor.
His influence in design and construction innovations will cast a much, much longer shadow.
A whole other thread could be started about the projects he didn't do. I'm sure he's turned down a large amount of great potential projects (especially overseas and in remote areas) in the past couple decades.
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Matt:
The irony is that the single most important project Pete Dye ever turned down was ... wait for it ...
Sand Hills.
Dick Youngscap felt like he owed Pete to offer him the job, since he wouldn't have been in position to build it if they hadn't done Firethorn together. But, I think he really wanted Bill and Ben to design it, so he undersold it to Pete when he called to ask him.
I would love to know what that course would have been like. But, by the same token, I am very happy Sand Hills turned out the way it did.
Ben:
I was only beating up on Wikipedia because it is what it is. I have no idea who wrote all the stuff on there about me, but just because they chose to emphasize the projects they did [or not talk about my associates] does not mean those are the most important parts of my legacy. My kids do think it's weird that I have a Wikipedia page ... I guess their friends look at it when they want to tease them.
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I've played 5 Doak courses now and Beechtree was the clear winner as "worst" of those 5.
I think the important take away of all this is that Mentor/Protege relationships seem to be alive and doing well. I know in my business thats pretty important too and good to see the torch continues to pass.
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If Tom Doak is still monitoring this thread, I'd like to ask a question about any Pete Dye's specific moment of impact that Tom may be able to recall. What I mean is to ask if Tom can remember any specific day and setting on a golf construction site where Pete and he had a specific interaction of mentor-apprentice, where Pete did or said something, or directed some specific activity, where Tom had some moment of clear vision or could see his future and what he would take away from that moment?
I'd love to hear if any other architects tuning in here, could similarly account for one of those important, mentor-apprentice moments. Aren't such moments what legacy and historical impact are made of?
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Tom-
I'm sure he would have done it justice. After seeing what he did with a runway in Kohler you know how much he appreciates a Melvyn-esque site.
It's amusing how many perceptions there are about the guy. I'm setting up some t-times for our group late in March in Hilton Head and worked hard to get them on a great Dye course none of them have played. One of the guys commented about the nasty greens contours he 'knows' are inherent with his designs and just as soon not go there. From super hard tests of golf, to courses you can burn down, to railroad car bridges, to looking out for the forward tees, to angles, to risk-reward, to....agronomic breakthroughs to... Can ANYBODY throw a blanket over the guy and really summarize him?
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If Tom Doak is still monitoring this thread, I'd like to ask a question about any Pete Dye's specific moment of impact that Tom may be able to recall. What I mean is to ask if Tom can remember any specific day and setting on a golf construction site where Pete and he had a specific interaction of mentor-apprentice, where Pete did or said something, or directed some specific activity, where Tom had some moment of clear vision or could see his future and what he would take away from that moment?
I'd love to hear if any other architects tuning in here, could similarly account for one of those important, mentor-apprentice moments. Aren't such moments what legacy and historical impact are made of?
RJ:
I think I still remember nearly everything Pete Dye ever said while I was within earshot. I must have been paying pretty close attention!
It really wasn't all that much [to Pete], but it meant a lot [to me]. A lot of what I remember was during the construction of Long Cove, where I was the lowest man on the totem pole ... a skinny 20-year-old raking sticks and reading the transit while checking slopes on the greens. I don't know why Pete even bothered to tell me some of the things that he did, because I would not have been voted Most Likely to Succeed on that crew ... by the Dyes, at least. [Some of the guys who watched my slide shows in the evening might have had a different opinion.]
Anyway, I've written about several [most] of those moments in other places, and it's funny how they have become incorporated into the Pete Dye narrative because I happened to mention them somewhere. Pete's story about how he kept driving past Palmetto Dunes on his way to Harbour Town, and ultimately decided he needed to go in a different direction, was something he just said to me in passing one day while I was giving him a ride out to #14 or 15. I'd been on the job two weeks at that point, he certainly wasn't telling me because he thought I would need to find my own direction someday. But, when I had to think about what kind of golf courses I was going to build when I did go out on my own, I remembered that conversation distinctly and thought that Pete would not be offended that I was doing something different than he'd done.
I try to remember to make time for my interns in the same way, but unfortunately, I succeed for some a lot better than for others. I don't know why that is, exactly; it really isn't personal, it's just a matter of who is around at the right time for me to be philosophical. I guess it's just like my posts here, you never know when I'll make a really good one! ;)
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My thinking is that Mr. Dye will be most remembered for creating the first uniquely American golf course, TPC Sawgrass. He will be recognized as the architect who most completely transmuted the fundamental principles of golf course design (as found in the great British links course) through the medium of a modern and uniquely American spirit, i.e. an optimistic, bold and even brash spirit, respectful of traditions but not rule-bound, full of natural showmanship and self-confidence, inventive and willing to re-invent, and a friend of the entrepreneur, of technology, and of the big-time. He will be remembred as the first architect to turn his full attention and talents to the big-money world of televised professional golf.
Peter
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It's amusing how many perceptions there are about the guy. I'm setting up some t-times for our group late in March in Hilton Head and worked hard to get them on a great Dye course none of them have played. One of the guys commented about the nasty greens contours he 'knows' are inherent with his designs and just as soon not go there. From super hard tests of golf, to courses you can burn down, to railroad car bridges, to looking out for the forward tees, to angles, to risk-reward, to....agronomic breakthroughs to... Can ANYBODY throw a blanket over the guy and really summarize him?
Matt V: I feel the same was probably true of MacKenzie, Ross, Tillinghast, even Macdonald. If you are driven to do great work, you are not easily typecast, and it's sad that magazine editors push golf writers to summarize and stereotype their subjects. But, it's harder for that to happen with Mr. Dye, because he is still alive and he is like me in that he's determined not to be pigeonholed. He mentioned to me years ago [when the common stereotype about him was using all the railroad ties] that he actually hadn't used a railroad tie on any of his courses for 4-5 years, but no one had noticed!
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Tom-
Absolutely. Although I've only played Ballyneal (a lot) I know your design philosophy is hard to pin down. Refreshing! It will be fun to see you're career when you get long in the tooth and see what labels try to get stuck on you. One of the most amazing things about Pete when comparing him anybody from classic to modern, is his ability to keep it all (from the contract to the check) without putting anything on paper (much less in stone like some out there). For him to develop a connection with shapers, etc. that goes from pushing sand with his hands to almost telepathic is amazing.
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Tom-
Absolutely. Although I've only played Ballyneal (a lot) I know your design philosophy is hard to pin down. Refreshing! It will be fun to see you're career when you get long in the tooth and see what labels try to get stuck on you. One of the most amazing things about Pete when comparing him anybody from classic to modern, is his ability to keep it all (from the contract to the check) without putting anything on paper (much less in stone like some out there). For him to develop a connection with shapers, etc. that goes from pushing sand with his hands to almost telepathic is amazing.
Matt,
As I've gotten older I've become steadily more like Mr. Dye in that respect ... I don't want to put anything on paper at all, because I'm afraid it will be taken too seriously. Which was another conversation I had with Pete at Long Cove. I was under the impression that he hadn't done any drawings for the course, and that P.B. was out there winging a lot of ideas while he was shaping. But, late that summer, Bobby Weed opened his desk drawer and hauled out a legal pad where Pete had done sketches of each of the holes months earlier. He just didn't want to show it all to anyone.
When I asked Pete about it, he said occasionally he would have a client who pulled out a drawing and asked him why he wasn't building the hole the way he'd drawn it. He said he was just tired of explaining to them that after spending a few months on site, he had a better idea of what would work, so why would they want him to go back and look at a drawing he'd done months before?
We didn't even have a drawing for Barnbougle Dunes ... I was afraid to give the final routing to Greg Ramsay for fear he would decide to build the course without me, so I never drew it up ... I just took Brian Schneider out to the holes I had staked and showed him where to start building the greens!
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When I think of Pete Dye, I think of 1) the Amex commercial 2) the dive into the greenside water at TPC with Beman and Jerry Pate) and 3) the Feature Interview on this site. Not in that order...
I'll second whoever recommended Bury Me In A Pot Bunker, it is a terrific read, both funny and informative.
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Tom, in thinking about that Palmetto Dunes story, do you think Pete was driven to simply be different, or that he didn't like the prevailing ideas of the times? Or a bit of both?
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Matt:
The irony is that the single most important project Pete Dye ever turned down was ... wait for it ...
Sand Hills.
Dick Youngscap felt like he owed Pete to offer him the job, since he wouldn't have been in position to build it if they hadn't done Firethorn together. But, I think he really wanted Bill and Ben to design it, so he undersold it to Pete when he called to ask him.
I would love to know what that course would have been like. But, by the same token, I am very happy Sand Hills turned out the way it did.
Ben:
I was only beating up on Wikipedia because it is what it is. I have no idea who wrote all the stuff on there about me, but just because they chose to emphasize the projects they did [or not talk about my associates] does not mean those are the most important parts of my legacy. My kids do think it's weird that I have a Wikipedia page ... I guess their friends look at it when they want to tease them.
Tom, if you have some time on your hands, I think you can go on Wikipedia and edit what others have said about you!
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Tom, in thinking about that Palmetto Dunes story, do you think Pete was driven to simply be different, or that he didn't like the prevailing ideas of the times? Or a bit of both?
Pete has always said he admired Mr. Jones' work, and if you look at some of his very early courses, like Radrick Farms, you can see the influence of Jones and Dick Wilson.
But what he said about Palmetto Dunes was that he didn't see how golf could KEEP GOING in that direction -- which I took to mean longer and harder and fairer [and especially longer]. And that it didn't make sense to try to take something even further than the other guys were taking it. He wanted to explore a different way to skin the cat.
P.S. to Bill: If someone here wants to edit my Wikipedia page, they can go for it. I would feel very weird trying to write my own biography or trying to control what others think of me. I am pretty sure Mr. Dye has not worked on his own Wikipedia page, either.
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Thanks, Tom, that's what I hoped/expected to hear.
I've always felt people who strive to be different for its own sake are falling for the same trap as those who follow the leaders. I didn't think Pete Dye would fall into either category. Terrific story about PB, also, it would be great if everyone in life followed that model, but that's not happening, at least not until we hit the Bill & Ted's Utopia stage.
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Pete has always said he admired Mr. Jones' work, and if you look at some of his very early courses, like Radrick Farms, you can see the influence of Jones and Dick Wilson.
But what he said about Palmetto Dunes was that he didn't see how golf could KEEP GOING in that direction -- which I took to mean longer and harder and fairer [and especially longer]. And that it didn't make sense to try to take something even further than the other guys were taking it. He wanted to explore a different way to skin the cat.
Tom,
I've only played Radrick once (a number of years ago now), but I don't recall a distinct Jones and/or Wilson influence. Just curious why you say that? What is it there, at Radrick, that makes you think of Jones' and/or Wilson's influence?
And, isn't it a tad ironic now that Mr. Dye is often accused of taking the game in 'that direction' - particularly with regard to length; and, many have said, difficulty?
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Pete has always said he admired Mr. Jones' work, and if you look at some of his very early courses, like Radrick Farms, you can see the influence of Jones and Dick Wilson.
But what he said about Palmetto Dunes was that he didn't see how golf could KEEP GOING in that direction -- which I took to mean longer and harder and fairer [and especially longer]. And that it didn't make sense to try to take something even further than the other guys were taking it. He wanted to explore a different way to skin the cat.
Tom,
I've only played Radrick once (a number of years ago now), but I don't recall a distinct Jones and/or Wilson influence. Just curious why you say that? What is it there, at Radrick, that makes you think of Jones' and/or Wilson's influence?
And, isn't it a tad ironic now that Mr. Dye is often accused of taking the game in 'that direction' - particularly with regard to length; and, many have said, difficulty?
I guess it is because when Pete Dye first started out his courses were obviously not very old, so technology wasn't making them obsolete. Now that he has been around designing courses for 50 years he looks back on holes he designed 30 years ago that used to be driver-3 iron and are now driver-wedge. I can understand the paranoia that it might cause, especially since Pete Dye often designs courses that will host professional touraments.
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Tom,
Looks like someone has already been up to some hijinks...this appears on your page now.
"Other
Tom Doak also loves cheeseburgers, long walks on the beach, and his fans."
I've been tempted to get a wiki login for awhile now. Maybe I'll get one so I can help maintain these wiki pages as golf architecture becomes more and more popular.
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See, like I said. More accurate than Encyclopedia Britannica! :)
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Pete has always said he admired Mr. Jones' work, and if you look at some of his very early courses, like Radrick Farms, you can see the influence of Jones and Dick Wilson.
But what he said about Palmetto Dunes was that he didn't see how golf could KEEP GOING in that direction -- which I took to mean longer and harder and fairer [and especially longer]. And that it didn't make sense to try to take something even further than the other guys were taking it. He wanted to explore a different way to skin the cat.
Tom,
I've only played Radrick once (a number of years ago now), but I don't recall a distinct Jones and/or Wilson influence. Just curious why you say that? What is it there, at Radrick, that makes you think of Jones' and/or Wilson's influence?
And, isn't it a tad ironic now that Mr. Dye is often accused of taking the game in 'that direction' - particularly with regard to length; and, many have said, difficulty?
Jeff:
I'm sure you have been to Radrick Farms since I was there ... you were probably a toddler when I was there! I just saw it as long and lean and somewhat reminiscent of Jones ... not in the bunker styling, but in the strategy and the modern clean lines of it. But, it's been 25-30 years now.
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Tom, in thinking about that Palmetto Dunes story, do you think Pete was driven to simply be different, or that he didn't like the prevailing ideas of the times? Or a bit of both?
Pete has always said he admired Mr. Jones' work, and if you look at some of his very early courses, like Radrick Farms, you can see the influence of Jones and Dick Wilson.
But what he said about Palmetto Dunes was that he didn't see how golf could KEEP GOING in that direction -- which I took to mean longer and harder and fairer [and especially longer]. And that it didn't make sense to try to take something even further than the other guys were taking it. He wanted to explore a different way to skin the cat.
P.S. to Bill: If someone here wants to edit my Wikipedia page, they can go for it. I would feel very weird trying to write my own biography or trying to control what others think of me. I am pretty sure Mr. Dye has not worked on his own Wikipedia page, either.
Just kidding!