Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Brad Klein on February 06, 2012, 07:53:08 PM
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Costs, budgets are an issue despite the set $300,000 design fee. And there's no reason to have the IOC involved in a decision that's supposed to be entirely local. Lots of uncertainty and surprise still likely. And you can forget about favorites now.
http://golfweek.com/news/2012/feb/06/delay-keeps-rio-designer-course-another-month/
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Brad,
Good article, loved the part that the presentations were filmed, lets see if they acutally release them. Gives me reason to eat healthy and try to live that long! Ten to fifteen million dollar budget, I doubt very much and if it is true it will be horrible for the future of golf development in South America and IMO send the wrong message world wide. What I am hearing through local channels is much much less and I have done five courses in Brazil, so I am some what connected---but not to much obviously for I am not in the final big 8! Anyways it was a good article and as much as this is shocking to everybody, it kind of normal for Brazil. What will be a shocking is if they can actually get it built to test drive like planned. I see more like 100 brazilians laying sod ten days before the opening event and injecting phosphorus through needles into individual turfgrass plants. One question back at ya, that I have been racking my brains over is, Who do you think the delays favor and Why?
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So who at the golf channel watched all the videos this weekend?
"We'll know a little more in a few years when Golf Channel, which has filmed the presentations, releases its documentary in the run-up to the 2016 Olympics."
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I was taught when you can't say anything nice, don't say anything.
So I will shut up.
But I won't stop thinking.
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Its gotta suck when the people who actually did all the work can't speak, yet anyone else can try and make a buck while speculating about all the speculation.
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Brad,
I thought the article was very well written as well....thats probably the best synopsis I've heard of the issue to date.
P.S. I disagree that the 8 firms are totally "losing" right now. Their names are getting out there in the popular press, much more so than they would be otherwise with the architecture business having almost ground to a halt. Hell yes its torture to wait, but hopefully they will continue to get good publicity for being in the "elite 8".
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Is it me or does this project seem like a cluster.........
Anthony
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Is it me or does this project seem like a cluster.........
Anthony
Welcome to South America....kilombo is the Spanish word you are looking for, you learn to accept it, live with it and try to turn into something positive like, oh well, never a dull moment. Combine this day to day living style with Olympic politics and itīs par fore the course! I can promise you this, you ainīt seen nothing yet and who ever wins, if they want to recuperate there $20,000 to $100,000 present investment, they can get that back and more, by writting a book when its all over! I wonder if the problem is politics Vs reasonable budget or they just want to send a messaje to the losing seven, that losing is a blessing in disguise!
I remember several years back a Chilean client that lived a couple of years in the US asking me how I was able to adapt to Chile. I asked him in what sence? He said, well in the US you buy a table on a Friday afternoon and they say they will deliver it at 12 on Saturday and at 12 it arrives, but not in Chile! Oh, I said that, Well I also lived in Brazil and Argentina. In Chile the table comes at 4 under those circumstances and I donīt expect it before that time. In Argentina it comes the following Saturday and the delivery person is well trained and insist that they never promised it the Saturday before and I am mistaking and lying. They take a very strong; the best defense is a strong offense and become very offensive! You give up and take your table! In Brazil, it comes two weeks later and its not even the table you ordered and paid for. The delievery guy says, donīt make a big deal out of nothing, this is what they sent, its wood,īit has four legs, I really donīt see what the problem is and what your upset about! Then he says, you got any cold beer, lets try out your new table!
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Very interesting news, that The Golf Channel filmed all of the presentations. That's great, to have this important piece of golf history documented as such. Kudos to whoever thought of doing that.
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Is it me or does this project seem like a cluster.........
Anthony
Visions of the 1976 Olympic Stadium on a much smaller scale. Hopefully, it will have a more successful/productive life after the Games.
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Brad That was a nice article. Randy thanks for some laughs about life in the different cultures of SA.
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Did I miss something, or is there no course that could host The Olympics in Rio?
Seems the smartest guys in the room are...............not in the room
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Welcome to South America....kilombo is the Spanish word you are looking for, you learn to accept it, live with it and try to turn into something positive like, oh well, never a dull moment. Combine this day to day living style with Olympic politics and itīs par fore the course! I can promise you this, you ainīt seen nothing yet and who ever wins, if they want to recuperate there $20,000 to $100,000 present investment, they can get that back and more, by writting a book when its all over! I wonder if the problem is politics Vs reasonable budget or they just want to send a message to the losing seven, that losing is a blessing in disguise!
I remember several years back a Chilean client that lived a couple of years in the US asking me how I was able to adapt to Chile. I asked him in what sense? He said, well in the US you buy a table on a Friday afternoon and they say they will deliver it at 12 on Saturday and at 12 it arrives, but not in Chile! Oh, I said that, Well I also lived in Brazil and Argentina. In Chile the table comes at 4 under those circumstances and I donīt expect it before that time. In Argentina it comes the following Saturday and the delivery person is well trained and insist that they never promised it the Saturday before and I am mistaking and lying. They take a very strong stance; the best defense is a strong offense and become very offensive! You give up and take your table! In Brazil, it comes two weeks later and its not even the table you ordered and paid for. The delivery guy says, donīt make a big deal out of nothing, this is what they sent, its wood,īit has four legs, I really don't see what the problem is and what your upset about! Then he says, you got any cold beer, lets try out your new table!
As one of our resident musicologists, I happen to know a wonderful song about this. Great story, Randy. Thanks.
Quilombo, by Gilberto Gil
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W75Q1NZBHVk
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Kalen,
I think I agree with you. The 8 finalists are getting a lot of good PR from this process, and will probably be able to make up for the costs of chasing this project from the fees they get from other projects they get just for being in the final 8 (I hope that's not too confusing....) If anyone has 'lost out' it's the architects you spent time and money submitting but didn't make the final 8.
Brad, Nice article.
scott
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Kalen,
I think I agree with you. The 8 finalists are getting a lot of good PR from this process, and will probably be able to make up for the costs of chasing this project from the fees they get from other projects they get just for being in the final 8 (I hope that's not too confusing....)
I don't agree at all. Most of us had little trouble attracting work beforehand, and I highly doubt that being a finalist for the Olympic job will bolster that meaningfully, especially since there are so few jobs out there right now, anyway.
The Olympic job is a great opportunity, and I think we are all in the race because we want that opportunity, not because we might skim some other work off it if we succeed [or even if we fail]. We can all afford the ante to be considered, although certainly some can afford it more easily than others.
I can also think of lots better ways than this to spend $40,000 on p.r. , although the two trips to Rio were a nice winter break for me. I don't spend $40,000 on p.r. in a year, normally. I have rationalized it as an educational opportunity, to keep several of my interns employed for a month or two when there was really nothing else for them to do.
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Two speeds. Slow and stop.
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Two speeds. Slow and stop.
Anthony,
Wait till they get into the actual construction, thats when the third speed will kick in - REVERSE!
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There's been a basic lack of respect shown in the process, for example that the finalists were not even informed Friday of the decision to delay and instead found out about it from second hand sources, the media, etc. They got a form letter only yesterday. This is no way to run a job interview. It's a really good (i.e. pathetic) piece of evidence of Olympic arrogance.
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I wonder if the Committee liked certain elements of a few different proposals and is now trying to figure out a way to 1) cobble the best parts together without poaching / undermining any one candidate; and/or 2) force a collaboration. Can an eight piece pie be split ten ways?
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It will certainly be interesting viewing once the presentations are televised in a few years time.
Regardless of how long it takes I wish the best to Tom & his team during the process.
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The state of Florida, by law, tapes all consultant interviews for public projects. When I have interviewed there, I always buy the tape to assess my performance later on. Once, I went against Hills (winner) Cupp, Clark, and Griffiths. Actually, it was easy to see why Hills won after viewing the tape. The rest of us all sounded alike......
That is one golf channel special I will watch! The design version of "The Big Break" I guess.
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Coore and Crenshaw are looking smarter every day!
Tom - in addition to escaping the mildest winter in memory, don't forget the opportunity to have a classic Christmas card ;)
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There is a golf channel employee that has seen all of the interviews as he filmed them. Think he might have scoop? ;) ;)
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When I saw the title of this thread, I thought for sure that Mac Plumart had just gotten the job! ;D
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There's been a basic lack of respect shown in the process, for example that the finalists were not even informed Friday of the decision to delay and instead found out about it from second hand sources, the media, etc. They got a form letter only yesterday.
Brad:
That's exactly how they told us they would do it ... well, almost ... they said they would announce the winner by press release on Friday. Instead, they announced they hadn't picked a winner yet.
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There is a golf channel employee that has seen all of the interviews as he filmed them. Think he might have scoop? ;) ;)
Mike:
The Golf Channel guys had to sign their own non-disclosure agreement. None of what they've filmed will see the light of day until 2016. And, in the time between presentations when the jury discussed what they had just seen, the film crew had to shut off the cameras and leave the room so that the deliberations would be strictly private ... so I don't think they have much of a scoop to share. Wish I'd had the same chance to see the other presentations, though, it would have been fascinating.
P.S. Jeff is also correct, the proceedings had to be filmed for the city by law, since this is a public project.
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Good luck, Tom.
My guess is that the consensus being sought is for public consumption only, indicative of the panelists' shared desire to have no one person take the blame/flack in event of a problem. Inside the room, on the other hand, I assume there is a clear heirarchy, i.e. that one panelist/decision-maker is the key; and the delay, I think, is because that one key decision-maker failed to reach out beforehand to all the many other stakeholders and play nice, i.e. make them think that their views/opinions were being factored into the decision.
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Good luck, Tom.
My guess is that the consensus being sought is for public consumption only, indicative of the panelists' shared desire to have no one person take the blame/flack in event of a problem. Inside the room, on the other hand, I assume there is a clear heirarchy, i.e. that one panelist/decision-maker is the key; and the delay, I think, is because that one key decision-maker failed to reach out beforehand to all the many other stakeholders and play nice, i.e. make them think that their views/opinions were being factored into the decision.
Peter,I thought the same thing.Cynicism is a bitch,no?
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I would think the cameraman could discern a difference between the presentations - that would be hard to cover by a non-disclosure.
And there are still others that got to see the footage - for a number of technical reasons - insure footage, archiving properly....
Why weren't the cameras on during their deliberation - isn't that would the public should see?
Good luck
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I would think the cameraman could discern a difference between the presentations - that would be hard to cover by a non-disclosure.
And there are still others that got to see the footage - for a number of technical reasons - insure footage, archiving properly....
Why weren't the cameras on during their deliberation - isn't that would the public should see?
Good luck
Mike,
I suspect its like any other gov't entity/corporation/committee, etc.
Frank discussion behind closed doors and then the sanatized synopsis of what happened after the fact for the press.....
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Mike,
My guess is that the public should see if any participants offered any unusual inducements. With that, it would be obvious if the committee went with XX after being offered a "bazillion dollars."
Of course, that is only a small part of the reason. If there are any legitimate offers or concerns, those would be caught on tape for future inclusion in a final contract.
It seems interesting to me that Brad says there are some concerns on the project managment side, with fees, and what not, that were not spelled out early. Of course, it could be that the "on site" guys like TD and Gil gave them a different take on what CM would mean and/or cost, and that is something to consider.
Well, it is what it is. I know the feeling of uncertainty (and certainly of defeat, which is even worse than uncertainty) and feel for the gca's. However, in defense of the committee, its a hard process for them, too. They went worldwide, got some great proposals and now have to pick one. I don't feel any real cyncism towards them, even if there are some glitches.
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NBCUniversal owns the Golf Channel and holds the rights to the 2016 Olympics. Presumably they would cover the golf competition in 2016 on the Golf Channel. In other words don't expect the resulting documentary that will eventually air to show much of anything that would be controversial or negative about the process and I doubt they would show us much from the designs that were not chosen.
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Bradley, Since we are speculating, Do you think it's possible that there was either too much media anticipation, for the results, or not enough? If too much, they might figure holding off would create even greater buzz, or, if there wasn't enough, by delaying, they could create more buzz?
Tom, Do you think you are the only finalist who thinks seeing the other presentations would be cool? In other words....Is Gil as geeky as you? ;D
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Mike:
The Golf Channel guys had to sign their own non-disclosure agreement. None of what they've filmed will see the light of day until 2016. And, in the time between presentations when the jury discussed what they had just seen, the film crew had to shut off the cameras and leave the room so that the deliberations would be strictly private ... so I don't think they have much of a scoop to share. Wish I'd had the same chance to see the other presentations, though, it would have been fascinating.
P.S. Jeff is also correct, the proceedings had to be filmed for the city by law, since this is a public project.
Not released until 2016. Is this the Warren Commission?
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I wonder if they will also document the building process much like Golf Channel covered Trump when he was building his course in Scotland?
Creating Golf's Olympic Dream.
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Probably not releasing it until 2016 to have some original Oly related programming on NBC or whatever. Does it really matter to most how they came to whatever decision they make? No, but it will matter during and just prior to the olympics when they can have the gca explaining stuff.
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I wonder if they will also document the building process much like Golf Channel covered Trump when he was building his course in Scotland?
Creating Golf's Olympic Dream.
Didn't Jack say he wanted to build "the Nicklaus Olympic Golf Course" ;) That would be "Creating the Nicklaus Olympic Golf Course".
Also, Jeff, I agree that was the reasoning. The quote just reminded me of the movie JFK where Kevin Costner says that he hopes his kids are around to see the day when the records are released. I thought it was funny, but not the first time that others didn't.
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Michael,
Hey I live in DFW, surrounded by Kennedy conspiracy types. I can already see a 40 year controversy erupt over the gca selection, at least here on gca.com.......and, surprised there weren't any odds on this choice in Vegas, although Geoff Shac did have a poll.
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"The Announcement"
Jim Gray wasn't avail until March...
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Adam,
I really doubt the delay has anything to do with building media attention or anticipation. They are stuck, this committee, with different agendas of evaluation. The Brazilians have to pay for it and surely are concerned about cost, management and what to do with the place "the morning after." Some might be looking for a stern championship test, but that's got to be less of a local issue than an international-golf one, and that side of things isn't paying a penny for the golf course or its design.
I would not discount the management personalities of the four principals. I also suspect that they were very surprised to see the different ways the site issues were addressed, and that a bold, unconventional approach might have impressed at least a few of them -- enough to force a reassessment and to cause a reshuffling of the deck.
Brad
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Adam,
I would not discount the management personalities of the four principals. I also suspect that they were very surprised to see the different ways the site issues were addressed, and that a bold, unconventional approach might have impressed at least a few of them -- enough to force a reassessment and to cause a reshuffling of the deck.
Brad
This is exactly what I thought might have happened when we first heard about the delay. And if one or two of the committee members went into the process expecting to pick a "name" but were given reason to pause by the presentations, isn't this a good thing? In the long run, isn't this worth a 30-day review?
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Or perhaps they fell in love with the footage from the Phoenix Open going on that week and seeing all that "stadium-style seating" all over the course...
....and then were disappointed when no-one's proposal included something like that? Although I'm guessing at least 1 or 2 of them included a fair amount of containment mounding in their plan which is better than nothing right? ;)
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Brad -
Were you (and the finalists, if you heard) surprised that the decision is by consensus and not majority? To Peter's below point, is there one panelist who holds the most sway/influence in the decision-making process?
My guess is that the consensus being sought is for public consumption only, indicative of the panelists' shared desire to have no one person take the blame/flack in event of a problem. Inside the room, on the other hand, I assume there is a clear heirarchy, i.e. that one panelist/decision-maker is the key; and the delay, I think, is because that one key decision-maker failed to reach out beforehand to all the many other stakeholders and play nice, i.e. make them think that their views/opinions were being factored into the decision.
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I will be very impressed if they actually give a well-reasoned explanation of exactly what made the winner's presentation worthy of selection over the others.
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While the delay does not surprise me in the least, what does is the fact that they didn't allow more time for review of the presentations and proposals. They should have allowed for at least a week to go over the proposals and come to a consensus. A day just doesn't cut it, especially if not all parties are very experienced in golf development.
You can sometimes get a sense of who the frontrunner is going in by the order of the presentations. The frontrunner is scheduled last so that he can respond to any issues brought up by the predecessors. Does anyone know what the order was?
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Howard,
"Surprise" is a fair characterization of the responses I have detected.
As for the question of whether one selector is more influential, I am certain that one is convinced he is. It is not yet clear if others share that view. I suspect that's about half of what is going on here.
The other half is just good old fashioned difficulty reaching a complex decision when you are dealing with eight really smart, sophisticated design teams. Nobody ad libbed this one. They were all polished, well-thought out and creative, though probably not equally so.
By the way, the order was alphabetical by first letter of design team.
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Pure specualtion but I see two in favor of the biggest, best, well re-known, approach with no thought to cost and the city and the investor, the real owners looking towards something more realistic that insures a profit before and after and allows space for the local middle class to have excess. Fifteen million dollar construction budgets will require 100 plus greens fees for a positive irr, and that prohibits the little local guy access, which ainīt gonna go over big in a socialist country. And it doesnīt send a good message world wide with more courses closing every day and less people playing.
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While the delay does not surprise me in the least, what does is the fact that they didn't allow more time for review of the presentations and proposals. They should have allowed for at least a week to go over the proposals and come to a consensus. A day just doesn't cut it, especially if not all parties are very experienced in golf development.
You can sometimes get a sense of who the frontrunner is going in by the order of the presentations. The frontrunner is scheduled last so that he can respond to any issues brought up by the predecessors. Does anyone know what the order was?
The order was alphabetical. Thomson Perrett were last. It is hard to conceive that they were the front runners.
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I am guessing that IF the decision hasn't been made, then its bad news for whatever underdog wowed them in the presentation. The wow factor and details and good feelings may start to disappear and "logic" - i.e. - the top ranked firm or a consensus firm that no one really objects to - might come back to the forefront. In other words, the impulse buy factor goes away, and the power of the presentation is null and void, to a degree.
But, I also suspect that the decision has been made, if not last Friday, then a few days later after they sat down again, and one firm is sending in contracts and other fee proposals and conditions, while the others are in the dark, and will be told with the rest of the world. At least, that is the way it often happens in city jobs.
As to who interviewed first, there is always a lot of talk among firms as to whether its best to go first, last or middle. To the degree that the presentation and design sell the project more than any pre proposal politicking, it doesn't really matter. If TD goes first, the second presenter is compared to him and one is essentially out. That "winner" is then compared to the third guy, so two are out, and so on. The last guy only needs to beat whoever beat everyone else, in essence. Only in a few occaisons - and this may be one - does a committee get bowled over by more than one firm, and no matter how good, at some point, they have to like one above the others.
As to evaluating the proposals, Brad brings up a point - they are all evaluating from different perspectives. Probably most cannot evaluate a routing without fly throughs and the like, and maybe not even then. Besides, unlike here, they are probably inclined to believe any of the firms, with their worldwide reputations, can design a great golf course. Their preference should be and is based on who hit their "hot button" list the hardest.
Lastly, I still don't see the big whup about sending a future message. If the course is too tough, just fill in some of the bunkers and back tees and show a plan for wider fw cuts, to make it more playable. The only real design issue I see is that if the greens are really tough, those would be more expensive to rebuild, so I see flatter greens than you might expect for a championship venue. At the same time, the design wouldn't likely be aimed at the Tiger and Phil crowd, because I don't think they are really wanting to embarass whoever the equivalent of the Jamacian Bobsled Team might be.
Overall, there will certainly be some costs associated with the tournament that don't send any particular message to the golfing world. All the one time extra costs add up, but I doubt that any of the gca's design styles is going to adversely affect the cost as much as infrastructure, etc. And all may have to move a lot of earth because of the spectator requirements, etc.
In the end we have to remember that we may be the 1500 most interested bystanders out there.....
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Couldn't any of the judges have gone either way - wanting a big name or a practical/smart/great design?
I can see the city wanting Norman/Nicklaus or Gil/Tom
I can see the IGF wanting Nicklaus/Norman or Tom/Gil
One of the presentations blowing away the others could have caused the delay.
Depending on how or if they score(d) can have a big impact.
Was everyone picking a favorite or were they doing it like the olympics based on points.
If they used points they would see something similar to how the Russian judged the Americans in gymnastics..
i.e. one judge gave Nicklaus a 10 and Doak a 9 and the other judge gave Doak a 10 and Nicklaus a 0 (if the judge was Tommy N.)
They may have added up the points and realized who the big fish was in the room and didn't like it.
OSSS!
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Howard,
"Surprise" is a fair characterization of the responses I have detected.
As for the question of whether one selector is more influential, I am certain that one is convinced he is. It is not yet clear if others share that view. I suspect that's about half of what is going on here.
The other half is just good old fashioned difficulty reaching a complex decision when you are dealing with eight really smart, sophisticated design teams. Nobody ad libbed this one. They were all polished, well-thought out and creative, though probably not equally so.
By the way, the order was alphabetical by first letter of design team.
Thanks, Brad. Very interesting...
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The way this process is unfolding, I wouldn't be surprised if the panel is deadlocked on two designers and asks that those two return next month for another round of presentations.
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By the way, the order was alphabetical by first letter of design team.
I thought it was funny that Tom Doak changed his companies name to AAAARenassance Golf Design 3 weeks ago, makes more sense now.
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By the way, the order was alphabetical by first letter of design team.
I thought it was funny that Tom Doak changed his companies name to AAAARenassance Golf Design 3 weeks ago, makes more sense now.
:)
Actually, I liked how the order worked out for us. Renaissance Golf Design went right after Nicklaus Design, and before Robert Trent Jones II.
I did notice that ours was the only company NOT named after the principal of the firm. Had I named it "Tom Doak Design" we would have gone last, just after Thomson Perrett. But, I really don't think going last would be an advantage in such a setting. By the end, the jurors had to be pretty tired.
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Jeff,
This is your second post in relation to you donīt seem to see any difference in construction cost on which design team is selected and in the last one you stated you were not really familiar what the JN group usually spends in constructing a course. I will try to shed some light on my point of view. I think there is a big difference and will try to explain why I think the winning team should be budget concerned and its important sending the proper message to the world of future golf development that cost should be controlled and in my opinion a maximum five to six million dollars should be allocated.
The JN group almost always to my knowledge works with an outside contractor compared to other teams that have small efficient in house staff. General contractors normally make somewhere between 25 to 35% of the overall price, so there is the first major difference. Another major difference is they spent a lot of effort through the years creating a marketing name in golf development similar to Rolex in the watch market. They will do everything to protect that market perception and is always a priority and whether the client makes makes money or not is secondary. They protect their business and their reputation and how the clients pays for their request and whether the project has an overall success is of little concern, as long as the client doesnīt go bankrupt, obviously that could have some market drawbacks on them indirectly. Who can blame them, most large corporations all do the same. Four Seasons is a good example, they make money, a flat management fee if the hotel makes money and they make money when you lose ten or twenty million dollars. They wonīt cut corners in any way or form, or lower their superior level of service to lower losses for the owner because it could affect their overall market perception. After 9-11, 42 out of 45 hotels in their management lost money but they had a banner year! Where am I going with this? Sometimes the criteria and the demands of large corporations such as the JN group, ask for specific construction techniques that are really not necessary in my opinion and the owner is asked to absorb these expenses in order to protect the design teamīs superior market image. For example, most all of the Buenos Aires area has heavy clay- loam topsoil. Not ideal but not bad especially for Bermuda grass that seems to grow very well in that particular climate. Bermuda grass does well in all areas in Buenos Aires including concrete and asphalt. My wifeīs grandmother is 104 and has a spectacular lush Bermuda grass lawn. Most courses are designed with good surface drainage and some catch basin and can open up in couple of hours following a heavy rain. In a recent project in that area they insisted on 12 to 16 inches of sand be brought in for fairways and tapering down to six to four inches in the rough. Cost for the client an extra four million dollars. They started out doing just that, the project stopped for a couple of year before completing construction and they went in and stripped some of the sand off from some of the first nine fairways and the driving range completely. Not sure how the final holes were done but it wasnīt with12-16 inches of sand. This is just one example, there are more and I like to pretend, I donīt like to bad mouth anybody, so we will leave it at one. (Its a market perception thing for me) The owner just came to the conclusion there was just no way, to recuperate the investment, the numbers were not working. In my opinion, 9 points out of ten can be achieved for lets say five million dollars, 9.1 will cost 6.5 million, 9.2 eight or nine million, the more one strives for perfection the cost rises dramatically to the point if you seek perfection or ten point be prepared to spend over twenty million and letīs not forget to add on the 25 percent letīs say for a contractor. Some of the young guys are having success because they are creating courses that get rated higher and seem to appeal to a broader market at reasonable final price. We have lived through sixty million dollar golf courses being built in the dessert and flying in trees to be transplanted via helicopter. I feel golf will have a better chance of growing world-wide, when we can leave this era behind us and thank god there are a few boutiques firms out there that specialize in creating quality golf experiences and can get it done in a reasonable number, thats their niche they have created! By doing so, the cost saving are passed on to the end user and more people can have access to these quality golf experiences, which should directly or indirectly help grow the game. The overall cost becomes an even bigger factor in cultures such as South America where it is still mainly practiced on weekends only.
One final comment, you mention the high cost of bulk earth movement for spectators mounding ect. It seems to me with all the new construction of hotels, roads, stadium ect., from the upcoming World cup in 2014 and Olympics in 2016 there has to be lots of contractors looking to get rid of dirt and the cost of hauling it out of the city is a big number. I would imagine the city could get all they wanted for free and maybe even get paid to take it off the hands of contractors. I forget the number of new hotels being built but I think it was double of what they currently have, thats a lot of dirt coming out of those foundations and no place to put it.
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Brad or anybody else!
Can anyone comfirm that GN sent an associate as Jeff heard or is this top secrect information that we have to wait until 2016 also!
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Wow, is any of this back and forth good for the actual game of golf? I am sure it is good for the Olympics as well as the winning (and maybe even losing) bidder, but what does the game (as an Olympic sport) have to gain from all this consternation? Do we really feel like one design over another is going to produce a more worthy "gold medalist"?
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Actually, I liked how the order worked out for us. Renaissance Golf Design went right after Nicklaus Design, and before Robert Trent Jones II.
That might have been the perfect slot to draw in Renaissance's case. The perfect opportunity to contrast oneself very, very nicely from those other two.
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Hi Randy:
I agree with the boutique guys being the way of the future for costs and the game. Hopefully the days or unbelievalbe construction costs are gone. Also, I'd really like to know more about the 104 year old's turf...does she get out and pop a few wedges from time to time?
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Randy, as I suggested in my Golfweek post, if the Brazil committee technical people did their homework they will know how each of the design teams really builds in the field.
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Randy, as I suggested in my Golfweek post, if the Brazil committee technical people did their homework they will know how each of the design teams really builds in the field.
Brad,
Yes, and the associated cost. And I feel after reading the article you feel that this could be more of a factor in the consideration of a final candidate. It may come down to the final selection, more than just a big household professional golfer household name! Something, I have been preaching since day one but Jeffīs comments lead me to beleive from his post that he doesnīt seem to feel the same way and the cost will be pretty much the same no matter who is selected and that is not the case.
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It's tougher to be a glass-half-full kind of guy every day, particularly if one doesn't have blind faith in the golf gods on high, yet hope springs eternal. Are we the only 1400 guys on the planet that are on pins and needles over this thing?
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Are we the only 1400 guys on the planet that are on pins and needles over this thing?
1399 (1499?). I am not. It's interesting and important, but in the grand scheme of things?
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Carl,
In the grand scheme of things we're all a bunch of ants crawling on a rock in space, but this is about as exciting as GCA intrigue gets IMO...at least until they fumble the ball....
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Carl,
In the grand scheme of things we're all a bunch of ants crawling on a rock in space, but this is about as exciting as GCA intrigue gets IMO...at least until they fumble the ball....
or score a touchdown! That possibility is still alive!
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Brad or anybody else!
Can anyone comfirm that GN sent an associate as Jeff heard or is this top secrect information that we have to wait until 2016 also!
Randy:
I believe that all of the principals were in Rio, contrary to some rumors beforehand. I said hello to Player and Thomson and Nicklaus personally, and just missed Greg Norman, who was doing an interview in the next room while we were doing a dry run of our presentation on Monday.
I don't know if Lorena Ochoa or Annika Sorenstam were there or not.
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I don't know if Lorena Ochoa or Annika Sorenstam were there or not.
Annika was in Rio, according to The Golf Channel:
http://www.golfchannel.com/news/morning-drive/annika-sorenstam-february-2-2012/ (http://www.golfchannel.com/news/morning-drive/annika-sorenstam-february-2-2012/)
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Annika was there.
Tom, Who was "we"?
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Annika was there.
Tom, Who was "we"?
Adam:
I don't know if I'm allowed to say who else was part of my presentation. It's not public information.
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Annika was there.
Tom, Who was "we"?
Adam:
I don't know if I'm allowed to say who else was part of my presentation. It's not public information.
I would have went with Pele, makes more sence than some of the other co-designeers, especially with three Brazilians on the board.
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Tom, Thanks. I suppose a description of who, might not hurt you. i.e. Associate or that long hitting Sarah.
Chrissy Teigen was likely available too.
(http://www.idontlikeyouinthatway.com/pictures/20110420/Christine%20Teigen%20Twitter/chrissy-teigen-twitter-0.jpg)
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Randy & Adam
I like your partner ideas very much!
I probably would have went with my friend Eddie:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aYwVN_TGHk
Let's see one of the judges try to get away from this world champion.
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bumping up Adam's photo and wondering which architects are flying to Rio this week.
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bumping up Adam's photo and wondering which architects are flying to Rio this week.
From AP:
The golf design candidates were invited to Brazil for the announcement on Wednesday, but it wasnt clear if they would attend.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/olympic-golf-course-designer-to-be-announced-during-ioc-visit-to-rio-de-janeiro/2012/03/06/gIQAjZ9nuR_story.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/olympic-golf-course-designer-to-be-announced-during-ioc-visit-to-rio-de-janeiro/2012/03/06/gIQAjZ9nuR_story.html)
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Sounds like the Heisman trophy award show, doesn't it?
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say "Nawal El Moutawakel" 10 times fast and you get the job...
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say "Nawal El Moutawakel" 10 times fast and you get the job...
For the Brits: it sounds soooooooooo much better in a Geordie accent....
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Oops! (Commented posted in wrong thread)
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It's 438 am here. I just had a dream that Martin Hawtree got it. We'll see.
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Adam,
Up for your morning yoga ;D
What time is the trophy handed out...anyone have any idea?
And, if you guys can find out who took what ship in 1912, we ought to be able to learn who is in Rio today?
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No, I'm up early so I can go get one last round at Ballyneal. Gonna hop the fence and pray they arrest me. ;D