Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Wyatt Halliday on February 01, 2012, 11:05:04 PM
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http://www.linksmagazine.com/links100
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Kingsley made it so what is everyone going to complain about.... ;)
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Amazing to see Prairie Club (Dunes) crack a top-100. I am sure it will be the first of many..
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30-50 is probably the most interesting stretch of the list.
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Mark
Why do you say amazing about Prairie Club Dunes?
Wasn't it too new for the other lists?
4.8 doesn't seem like a score that will propel it to new heights.
Cheers
I don't know the difference between any of them anymore.
Didn't another major publication recently come out with one?
What would happen if someone took the top 10 lists and compiled an ordinal result - like the PGA tour driving category or statistical leader?
With that data you could list the lists too....
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Amazing to see Prairie Club (Dunes) crack a top-100. I am sure it will be the first of many..
I saw that and thought of you right away!!
Nice call!!
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Interesting list, Aronimink at 95?
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Miss you brother Wyatt. Here's to hoping that nat'l signing day was good for you and Mr. Bernhardt.
I see Olympic a bit high, Plainfield a bit low. It actually looks like a well orchestrated composite list of what the magazines (GW, GD, Golf) are getting right.
However, the older I get, the less I care about what people think on golf courses in regards to ranking them. I know what I like. I don't mind telling people.
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Mark
Why do you say amazing about Prairie Club Dunes?
Wasn't it too new for the other lists?
4.8 doesn't seem like a score that will propel it to new heights.
Cheers
Mike,
It was eligible for GW's modern list, but failed to make the top-100 (I think it was 116).
I don't know what the numbers mean, perhaps someone could explain. Whatever the number means, though, it beat out about 17000 courses to land in the 100 spot.
I should add that I think it is phenomenal. Having played 8 of the top 10 modern, I am comfortable saying it belongs in the top 10. Time will tell if the masses (well, I guess I mean raters) agree with me.
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You are correct - beating out 17,000 is a big deal
Glad you enjoyed it as much as you did
Cheers
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Right back at you you Captain.
Congrats on the incoming class. We missed out on the top 4 in our state but hey, Mo Claiborne is going Top 10 in the draft and he was no more than a 3star. As was Blue, Cutrera, Riley, Shepard and Hester.
As for not jacking my own thread, I'm surprised W-Straits is a common thread on most lists. I wonder what Tim Bert thinks ;)
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Pebble Beach not in the Top10 in the US or World lists - how sacrilegious !!
Maybe my votes helped :P
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Pebble Beach not in the Top10 in the US or World lists - how sacrilegious !!
Maybe my votes helped :P
Kevin,
Your effort to get Kingston Heath up to 21 is much more impressive. ;D
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I don't know the difference between any of them anymore.
Didn't another major publication recently come out with one?
What would happen if someone took the top 10 lists and compiled an ordinal result - like the PGA tour driving category or statistical leader?
With that data you could list the lists too....
Mike, I think there is a website that does that. I think it is this site;
www.top100golfcourses.co.uk
regards,
Scott
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Amazing to see Prairie Club (Dunes) crack a top-100. I am sure it will be the first of many..
I think this is due to Tom Dunne (GCA poster) in a very positive way. When I got the email from Tom inviting me to cast my vote, I told him I was probably too East Coast biased as I don't travel as much as many others here who probably are Platinum flyers at American Airlines.
He assured me that he wanted my opinion as I seek out some quirky courses that many do not. See Rutland CC (VT). Now is Rutland "better" than Eastward Ho! or The Creek near the bottom of the list? No. Is Rutland better or more fun to play that Aronimink? Is Yale better or more fun to play that Winged Foot West ? No and yes, and this is why the list is interesting.
Hopefully it will not go "mainstream" on the next version as the views are now seen by each voter. Before this, it was literally a blank sheet of paper.
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As for not jacking my own thread, I'm surprised W-Straits is a common thread on most lists. I wonder what Tim Bert thinks ;)
I think the Straits is a wee tad too high!
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Actually a pretty decent list. They seem to have their priorities in the right place IMO; for reference:
Links GD GM
Whistling Straights 32 17 26
Bandon Dunes 39 28 32
Medinah 89 23 37
Arcadia NA 49 NA
Butler NA 54 NA
Rich Harvest NA 58 NA
Bandon Trails 36 63 54
Old Mac 26 NA 43
Shoreacres 30 92 36
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Amazing to see Prairie Club (Dunes) crack a top-100. I am sure it will be the first of many..
Hopefully it will not go "mainstream" on the next version as the views are now seen by each voter. Before this, it was literally a blank sheet of paper.
Ah, but there's the catch--the "next version" will be arriving in a matter of weeks, not year(s). The medium-term goal here is for this stuff to be updating in as close to real time as possible.
This is a good time to encourage everyone to create lists of their own. These results were produced by a panel of 105, but we're looking to add to that number going forward. I'm excited by how this turned out but have no doubt it can and will improve.
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Jud,
You forgot: Kingsley 64 NA NA!
It's a strong list. I'm going to do some comparisons between this and the other pubs' top 50. Should answer Nuzzo's question on how they differ.
It looks like there's a social network aspect to it once you sign up. I'm jcolton31 if anyone wants to befriend me.
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Friar's Head at number 19. Do you think with time it will move higher on the list and if so how high will it go?
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Was there a minimum number of votes needed for a course to make it?
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Rock Creek not high enough. Glad to see Baltimore CC make the list though.
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Is it just me but I can't find who the panelists are or what the criteria is?
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I agree its a good list. Suprised at how many new courses crack the top 50. Trails at 36, Dunes at 39, Boston Golf at 42. List falls apart a little for me after 85. Some great oldies and a somewhat random list of newer courses.
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52 USA courses in the world list. Wonder how that compares with the other lists...
A bit surprised Huntsman and Colorado GC made the US lists..Trying to think of surprising omissions and aren't seeing anything off the top of my head...
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52 USA courses in the world list. Wonder how that compares with the other lists...
Sean, I think there are exactly 50 in the Golf Mag list. (EDIT: Confirm Valley Club is #50 US)
That top 100 composite site has 47 US in the World 100 (Camargo is last one)
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Waht I like about the list is that it is not motivated at all by commercial interests..panelists have no commercial advantage to any selections, as such I think you see some surprising highs and lows of venues versus other polls.
I think this poll is very "true" in terms of guys who play golf and know what they like, rather than voting the way they are supposed to, on the basis of reputation.
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52 USA courses in the world list. Wonder how that compares with the other lists...
A bit surprised Huntsman and Colorado GC made the US lists..Trying to think of surprising omissions and aren't seeing anything off the top of my head...
7 out of the top 10 courses in the world from the US, and only 2 actual links courses.
from a magazine called "Links" ;) ;D :o ::)
edit:I like the list and notice a definite break from the status quo
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Here you go...comparison to Top 50 of Golf Mag and Golf Digest.
SWAP OUT = In Mag x Top 50, not in Links Top 50
SWAP IN = In Links Top 50, not in Mag x Top 50
GOLF MAG WORLD
TOP 50 SWAP OUT
43 Olympic Club (Lake) (76)
44 Whistling Straits (64)
45 Kiawah Island (Ocean Course) (58)
46 Portmarnock (Old) (59)
48 Royal Troon (66)
49 Nine Bridges (NR)
50 Garden City GC (51)
TOP 50 SWAP IN
25 Morfontaine (55)
38 Ballyneal (79)
41 Woodhall Spa (Hotchkin) (59)
45 North Berwick (West) (89)
47 Royal Lytham & St. Annes (57)
49 Old Macdonald (74)
50 Ganton (66)
GOLF MAG US
TOP 50 SWAP OUT
37 Medinah (89)
40 Quaker Ridge (53)
41 Inverness (56)
44 Winged Foot East (62)
45 Harbour Town (71)
48 Nanea (78)
49 Chambers Bay (55)
TOP 50 SWAP IN
33 The Course at Yale (71)
36 Bandon Trails (54)
38 Pasatiempo (66)
41 Myopia Hunt (83)
42 Boston GC (78)
46 Shadow Creek (60)
48 Kittansett (59)
GOLF DIGEST US (Wow!)
TOP 50 SWAP OUT
14 Alotian Club (84)
20 Wade Hampton (60)
23 Medinah (89)
29 Castle Pines (NR)
29 The Honors Course (67)
35 Victoria National (NR)
39 Canyata (NR)
42 GC at Black Rock (NR)
43 Peachtree (52)
44 Sebonack (57)
45 Pete Dye GC (58)
46 Kinloch (68)
48 Eagle Point (NR)
49 Arcadia Bluffs (NR)
50 Sahalee (NR)
TOP 50 SWAP IN
20 Ballyneal (95)
26 Old Macdonald (NR)
27 Garden City (53)
30 Shoreacres (92)
31 Camargo (NR)
33 The Course at Yale (NR)
34 Valley Club of Montecito (NR)
36 Bandon Trails (63)
37 Maidstone (93)
38 Pasatiempo (NR)
41 Myopia Hunt
42 Boston GC (89)
43 Somerset Hills (93)
47 Old Sandwich (89)
48 Kittansett (64)
It'll take more time to compare to GW, as I'd have to split between classic and modern.
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Can anyone explain what the scores mean (i.e. how they get them) and who the raters are?
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It would also be interesting to see how this list diverges from Daniel Wexler's guide. I don't own the book, but I do see one glaring difference.
Well done Tom!
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Well done to Tom and his panel of raters. This list is easily the best I've seen in recent times and rankings generally seem to be in line with the sensibilities of our group here at GCA. Nice to see courses like Ballyneal, Yale and even Highlands Links in their rightful place.
I would guess a good percentage of the 105 raters are members here at this site.
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Just curious as to how this compares to the "unofficial GCA ratings" that one of our young posters sorted out a year ago. It looks like it has a lot of similarities.
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Like this best of any list I've seen, happy I've played 26 of each list - although Cal Club was 20 years ago.
Where is Capilano? Where is Royal Cinque Ports? Those to me are notable exceptions.
Glad to see the Bandon courses all highly rated.
Very glad to see both Kingsley and Ballyneal highly placed.
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Just curious as to how this compares to the "unofficial GCA ratings" that one of our young posters sorted out a year ago. It looks like it has a lot of similarities.
See Matt's post above yours...
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Just curious as to how this compares to the "unofficial GCA ratings" that one of our young posters sorted out a year ago. It looks like it has a lot of similarities.
Tom, there are some similarities, but it doesn't look like you're faring quite as well in Links100 list. Cape Kidnappers was the only one I saw that was higher on Links100 than the unofficial GCA.
Man, my work productivity is taking a hit today.
TOP 50 SWAP OUT
28 Highlands Links (57)
39 St. George's Hill (Red & Blue) (69)
41 The Course at Yale (70)
42 Sebonack (NR)
43 Rock Creek Cattle Company (NR)
44 Rye (Old) (55)
45 St. Enodoc (NR)
46 Swinley Forest (65)
49 Pasatiempo (80)
TOP 50 SWAP IN
25 Morfontaine
35 Hirono
39 Los Angeles (North) (54)
42 Royal Birkdale (51)
43 Casa de Campo (Teeth of the Dog) (59)
46 Oakland Hills (South) (87)
47 Royal Lytham & St. Annes (85)
49 Old Macdonald
50 Ganton (71)
Note: Morf & Hirono didn't meet Ian's 10-vote cut-off, and Old Mac wasn't on the ballot.
Overall, there seems to be a GCA tilt to the Links list relative to Golf Magazine and especially Golf Digest, but that seems appropriate given their target readership. But looking at the two lists here, it seems more conventional than just the GCA conventional wisdom.
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Deleted. Pretty sure I misinterpreted Bill's question.
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This might help answer some of the questions being asked:
http://www.linksmagazine.com/best_of_golf/welcome-to-the-links100
Joel Stewart,
There is no set criteria for voting. Panelists are anonymous by default--some will definitely keep it that way, while others will be coming forward on the microsite to talk about how they created their ballots.
Jim Nugent,
The numbers are just output from the statistical model meant to show how far apart one course is from another. The 10 point scale was more or less an arbitrary selection.
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Here's a breakdown of the modern courses with architects. I count 8 for Dye, 6 for C&C, 5 for Doak, 5 for Fazio, 3 for Kidd and 3 for Nicklaus. If anyone can find the Post-1995 list that was compiled a while back, it would make for an interesting comparison.
1. Sand Hills (1) C&C
2. Pacific Dunes (2) Doak
3. Friar's Head (5) C&C
4. Ballyneal (6) Doak
5. Old MacDonald (3) Doak, Urbina, et al.
6. The Golf Club (9) Dye
7. Kiawah Ocean (20) Dye
8. Whistling Straits (4) Dye
9. Bandon Trails (29) C&C
10. Bandon Dunes (7) Kidd
11. Muirfiled Village (12) Nicklaus
12. Boston GC (21) Hanse
13. Sawgrass (18) Dye
14. Shadow Creek (11) Fazio
15. Old Sandwich (13) C&C
16. Gozzer Ranch (22) Fazio
17. Chambers Bay (25) RTJ Jr.
18. Sebonack (8) Doak/Nicklaus
19. Pete Dye GC (10) Dye
20. Monterrey Shores (41) Strantz
21. Wade Hampton (19) Fazio
22. Kingsley (26) DeVries
23. Rock Creek (15) Doak
24. The Honors Course (17) Dye
25. Kinloch (14) George
26. Calusa Pines (31) Hurdzan & Fry
27. Spyglass Hill (16) RTJ Sr.
28. Harbour Town (42) Dye
29. Forest Highlands (54) Morrish & Weiskopf
30. Kapalua Plantation (77) C&C
31. Nanea (NR) Kidd
32. The Alotian (NR) Fazio
33. Huntsman Springs (30) Kidd
34. Colorado (37) C&C
35. Blackwolf Run (46) Dye
36. Whispering Pines (32) Nicklaus?/Williams
37. Shooting Star (24) Fazio
38. Sutton Bay (56) Marsh
39. Prairie Club (NR) Lehman
Courses in the GW Top 50 Modern but not in the Links Top 100 - Mountaintop, Galloway National, Arcadia Bluffs, Double Eagle, Dallas National, Dunes Club, Bayonne, Castle Pines, Desert Forest, Mayacama, World Woods (Pine Barrens), Diamond Creek, Fallen Oak, Oak Tree, Patriot, Club at Cuscowilla, Martis Camp
Edited to note the GW Modern ranking for each in parens.
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If anyone can find the Post-1995 list that was compiled a while back, it would make for an interesting comparison.
Here's the site's Post-Modern ranking from last summer.
REVISED TOP 25
1. Sand Hills (62)
2. Pacific Dunes (106)
3. Barnbougle Dunes (23)
4. Ballyneal (70)
5. Friars Head (52)
6. Wolf Point (7)
7. Ellerston (3)
8. Cape Kidnappers (13)
9. Rock Creek (28)
10. Old Macdonald (62)
11. Lost Farm (17)
12. Castle Stuart (11)
13. Kingsley Club (50)
14. Old Sandwich (19)
15. Bandon Trails (93)
16. Kingsbarns (41)
17. Sebonack (41)
18. Diamante (8)
19. Cal Club (27)
20. Bandon Dunes (98)
21. Gozzer Ranch (9)
22. Whistling Straits (Straits) (53)
23. Boston Golf Club (16)
24. Alotian Club (9)
25. Chambers Bay (44)
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48963.275.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48963.275.html)
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Jim,
The GCA Tilt that you refer to , is the same thing I belive...for once this is a poll conducted by individuals who love good golf courses without any axes to grind and voting purely on what they like...uninhibited by any restraints...that is why there is so little disagreement coming from this thread.
When was the last time a top of anything was published on this site and created such a love fest ;D
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I was surprised by two things as a Philly guy. One, more than 2 needed from Philly and two, I played 19 on the world list but only 11 on the US list. Overall I liked it.
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My cursory scan of the panel has GCA participants in the 15-20 range. Some of that number includes architects/industry types who would've been invited anyway, and there are a handful of others who are irregular posters at best. There's no question GCA influenced LINKS' original list, but some 75-80% of the panel have no direct connection to the site.
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Looks like the "candidate" list needs a bit of editing....I'm counting 10-15 courses listed twice...like "Boston GC" and "Boston Golf Club".
And a country entitled "VA" including Ansley GC in Georgia...
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Cool list Tom. Refreshing if nothing else.
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I guess I'm not too excited that TPC Sawgrass cracked the top 50. I played it last November and think it's incredibly overrated. #17 is #17, but beyond that I don't think it's anything to write home about.
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Tom - great job on the list. Very well done. I am most intrigued by the "hottest and 'coldest" courses factor. Will be interesting to see how quickly a new course can jump up the list and how volatile it will be once it is. For instance, where Cabot Links originally ranks versus settles.
IMHO, the only course that I think does not belong in this ranking is The Homestead (Cascades) - love the design, but maintenance and other changes should cause it to fall out of top 100. Has potential to be top 50 if a significant restoration was done.
In place of The Homestead, I would insert Victoria National.
Other Courses that were omitted that based on my experience or people I trust, I would have liked to see were (but don't know who I would bump) - Dismal River (to prove I am not a Nicklaus hater ;)), Ballyhack (based on reports from Dixie Cup - even in horrendous conditions), Brookside (once you play it, it will never leave your top 100 - Jonathan Becker and I need more of you to see it - maybe I should put together a gca outing) and Lancaster (really looking forward to seeing restoration).
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Brookside (once you play it, it will never leave your top 100 - Jonathan Becker and I need more of you to see it - maybe I should put together a gca outing) and Lancaster (really looking forward to seeing restoration).
IN!
And I agree about Victoria National -- a surprising omission.
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Other Courses that were omitted that based on my experience or people I trust, I would have liked to see were (but don't know who I would bump) - Dismal River (to prove I am not a Nicklaus hater ;)), Ballyhack (based on reports from Dixie Cup - even in horrendous conditions), Brookside (once you play it, it will never leave your top 100 - Jonathan Becker and I need more of you to see it - maybe I should put together a gca outing) and Lancaster (really looking forward to seeing restoration).
Michael -
Dismal is a "you love it more the more you play it" kind of course. Similar, to me, a bit like Cruden Bay. One or two rounds don't tell her story. I've found a lot of great ones are like that.
Thanks for believing we belong among the ranked. I happen to believe our course is spectacular and unique - it's certainly one if the best I have played. If we were ranked, I'm afraid we'd have to change out the 201 yardage markers!
I agree with you on Brookside, 100%. Haven't played Lancaster but hope to someday.
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GOLF MAG WORLD
TOP 50 SWAP OUT
43 Olympic Club (Lake) (76)
37 Medinah (89)
33 The Course at Yale (71)
14 Alotian Club (84)
20 Ballyneal (95)
These are the 5 with the biggest differences. These are pretty large differences.
I haven't played Ballyneal but I like the list, Olympic's recent work is horrible and they deserve to be knocked down. Medinah is just amazing they make any list? Yale is coming along, still has some more work to go. Alotian looks hard, plays easy and over time will fall once the hype wears out.
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Looks hard plays easy. The faz
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GOLF MAG WORLD
TOP 50 SWAP OUT
43 Olympic Club (Lake) (76)
37 Medinah (89)
33 The Course at Yale (71)
14 Alotian Club (84)
20 Ballyneal (95)
These are the 5 with the biggest differences. These are pretty large differences.
I haven't played Ballyneal but I like the list, Olympic's recent work is horrible and they deserve to be knocked down. Medinah is just amazing they make any list? Yale is coming along, still has some more work to go. Alotian looks hard, plays easy and over time will fall once the hype wears out.
[/quote
Looks to me like Jim has some of the numbers in the wrong column.
Ballyneal is rated 20 in Links
Alotian is not rated 14 in Links - it is rated 84 in Links
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GOLF MAG WORLD
TOP 50 SWAP OUT
43 Olympic Club (Lake) (76)
37 Medinah (89)
33 The Course at Yale (71)
14 Alotian Club (84)
20 Ballyneal (95)
These are the 5 with the biggest differences. These are pretty large differences.
I haven't played Ballyneal but I like the list, Olympic's recent work is horrible and they deserve to be knocked down. Medinah is just amazing they make any list? Yale is coming along, still has some more work to go. Alotian looks hard, plays easy and over time will fall once the hype wears out.
[/quote
Looks to me like Jim has some of the numbers in the wrong column.
Ballyneal is rated 20 in Links
Alotian is not rated 14 in Links - it is rated 84 in Links
No, Joel just took bits and pieces from the two different tables, one having Links on the left (Swap in) and one having GD on the left (swap out).
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GOLF MAG WORLD
TOP 50 SWAP OUT
43 Olympic Club (Lake) (76)
37 Medinah (89)
33 The Course at Yale (71)
14 Alotian Club (84)
20 Ballyneal (95)
These are the 5 with the biggest differences. These are pretty large differences.
I haven't played Ballyneal but I like the list, Olympic's recent work is horrible and they deserve to be knocked down. Medinah is just amazing they make any list? Yale is coming along, still has some more work to go. Alotian looks hard, plays easy and over time will fall once the hype wears out.
[/quote
Looks to me like Jim has some of the numbers in the wrong column.
Ballyneal is rated 20 in Links
Alotian is not rated 14 in Links - it is rated 84 in Links
No, Joel just took bits and pieces from the two different tables, one having Links on the left (Swap in) and one having GD on the left (swap out).
OK, thanks, numbers were a bit confusing in combination with Joel's commentary.
Seems that Links' list most closely conforms to gca board opinions.
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North Berwick, Cruden Bay, Diamanté and Castle Stuart on the list makes this list the one I value the most. Pebble may be a little low.
Anthony
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Kevin, did you try and talk to the guys at Links when you saw SFGC at inside 30 and Cal club not breaking top 100 in the world??
Brian - maybe not enough people have been fortunate to see the Cal. Club ? For mine - it's better than SFGC
Mark F - re: Kingston Heath - maybe its finally getting some of the recognition it deserves ;)
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I spent time today trying to do the impossible with ranking the courses I have played recently enough to remember them fairly well. I found the task very hard!
I was very surprised I needed to add Little Aston to the list.
Tom - for the sake of consistency, Castletown Golf Links should be Isle of Man. I added it to England because I didn't have a better choice. But then, I don't know if the courses I add to the data base can be seen by everybody. Do you know if they can?
Ciao
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Sean,
No, they can't. The mind reels at the potential for mischief if that were the case. You can add Castletown or any course to your ballot, but the system won't score that addition until it's entered into the database. The database saves manual additions in all caps, though, so we can easily scan and see what's new. We're planning on bringing in well over 100 courses in the next week or two--there'll be a list of names on the site. There are some really prominent Continentals that weren't on the original ballot.
It really is a difficult process, trying to make fine distinctions between excellent and closely matched courses, but it's that very difficulty that gives us confidence we're gathering useful info. On your end, of course, if you wake up one morning and decide to flip flop on RCD and Portrush, you CAN do that. Votes aren't set in stone--they are meant to evolve along with you as a golfer and course analyst.
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Well said!
..
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Thanks Bill.
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So a buddy of mine put together this really cool ranking/list that looks to be a pretty damn good one to me. Here's how he did it:
This is a composite list from the Digest, GolfWeek, GOLF, and Links lists where points are awarded as follows:
100 points for #1,
99 points for #2
On down to.....1 point for #100.
7 point bonus for each time a course appears on a list to benefit courses that appear at the bottom of multiple lists as compared to courses that only appear on one list in a somewhat higher spot.
Combined Magazine Top 100
1 Pine Valley GC (Pine Valley, NJ) 426
2 Cypress Point Club (Pebble Beach, CA) 422
3 Shinnecock Hills GC (Southampton, NY) 417
4 Augusta National GC (Augusta, GA) 411
5 Oakmont CC (Oakmont, PA) 407
6 Sand Hills GC (Mullen, NE) 406
7 Merion GC--East (Ardmore, PA) 403
8 National GL America (Southampton, NY) 402
9 Pebble Beach Golf Links (Pebble Beach, CA) 398
10 Pacific Dunes GC (Bandon, OR) 392
11 Crystal Downs CC (Frankfort, MI) 384
12 Fishers Island Club (Fishers Island, NY) 384
13 Winged Foot GC--West (Mamaroneck, NY) 376
14 Chicago GC (Wheaton, IL) 367
15 Seminole GC (Juno Beach, FL) 365
16 Prairie Dunes GC (Hutchinson, KS) 363
17 San Francisco GC (San Francisco, CA) 350
18 Pinehurst Resort & CC #2 (Pinehurst, NC) 349
19 Whistling Straits GC--Straits (Sheboygan, WI) 344
20 The Riviera CC (Pacific Palisades, CA) 342
21 Oakland Hills CC--South (Bloomfield Hills, MI) 336
22 The Country Club--Clyde/Squirrel (Brookline, MA) 336
23 Friar's Head GC (Baiting Hollow, NY) 335
24 Los Angeles CC--North (Los Angeles, CA) 321
25 Bethpage State Park GC--Black (Farmingdale, NY) 318
26 Muirfield Village GC (Dublin, OH) 310
27 Bandon Dunes GC (Bandon, OR) 309
28 The Olympic Club--Lake (San Francisco, CA) 309
29 The Golf Club (New Albany, OH) 304
30 The Ocean Course (Kiawah Island, SC) 303
31 Garden City GC (Garden City, NY) 296
32 TPC at Sawgrass--Stadium (Ponte Vedra Beach, FL) 273
33 Southern Hills CC (Tulsa, OK) 269
34 Oak Hill CC--East (Rochester, NY) 266
35 Shadow Creek GC (Las Vegas, NV) 264
36 Baltusrol GC--Lower (Springfield, NJ) 260
37 Wade Hampton GC (Cashiers, NC) 249
38 Ballyneal GC (Holyoke, CO) 248
39 Old MacDonald (Bandon, OR) 245
40 Sebonack GC (Southampton, NY) 243
41 The Honors Cse (Ooltewah, TN) 236
42 Shoreacres GC (Lake Bluff, IL) 233
43 Old Sandwich GC (Plymouth, MA) 224
44 Bandon Trails (Bandon, OR) 217
45 Spyglass Hill GC (Pebble Beach, CA) 216
46 Camargo Club (Indian Hill, OH) 216
47 Pete Dye GC (Bridgeport, WV) 209
48 Peachtree GC (Atlanta, GA) 205
49 Inverness Club (Toledo, OH) 195
50 Somerset Hills CC (Bernardsville, NJ) 194
51 Plainfield GC (Plainfield, NJ) 193
52 Kinloch GC (Manakin-Sabot, VA) 190
53 Maidstone Club (East Hampton, NY) 188
54 Winged Foot GC--East (Mamaroneck, NY) 179
55 Medinah CC #3 (Medinah, IL) 175
56 Valley Club of Montecito (Santa Barbara, CA) 174
57 Boston GC (Hingham, MA) 172
58 Pasatiempo GC (Santa Cruz, CA) 171
59 Chambers Bay GC (University Place, WA) 164
60 Calusa Pines GC (Naples, FL) 153
61 Gozzer Ranch GC (Harrison, ID) 151
62 The Alotian Club (Roland, AR) 150
63 Quaker Ridge GC (Scarsdale, NY) 150
64 Cse @ Yale (New Haven, CT) 145
65 Myopia Hunt Club (Hamilton, MA) 142
66 Interlachen CC (Edina, MN) 134
67 Monterey Peninsula CC--Shore (Pebble Bch, CA) 134
68 Scioto CC (Columbus, OH) 133
69 Newport CC (Newport, RI) 128
70 Harbour Town GL (Hilton Head Island, SC) 127
71 Yeaman's Hall Club (Hanahan, SC) 123
72 East Lake GC (Atlanta, GA) 120
73 Milwaukee CC (River Hills, WI) 115
74 Rock Creek Cattle Co. (Deer Lodge, MT) 111
75 Castle Pines GC (Castle Rock, CO) 107
76 Arcadia Bluffs GC (Arcadia, MI) 106
77 Cherry Hills CC (Englewood, CO) 105
78 California Golf Club (So. San Franciso, CA) 97
79 Wannamoisett CC (Rumford, RI) 95
80 The Kingsley Club (Kingsley, MI) 95
81 Olympia Fields CC--North (Olympia Fields, IL) 93
82 Kittansett Club (Marion, MA) 93
83 Nanea GC (Kailua-Kona, HI) 90
84 Mountaintop GC (Cashiers, NC) 89
85 Double Eagle Club (Galena, OH) 88
86 Congressional CC--Blue (Bethesda, MD) 88
87 Dallas National GC (Dallas, TX) 83
88 Piping Rock (Locust Valley, NY) 82
89 Whispering Pines (Trinity, TX) 79
90 Baltusrol GC--Upper (Springfield, NJ) 74
91 Baltimore CC--East (Timonium, MD) 73
92 Victoria National GC (Newburgh, IN) 73
93 Forest Highlands GC--Canyon (Flagstaff, AZ) 72
94 Canyata GC (Marshall, IL) 69
95 Huntsman Springs GC (Driggs, ID) 68
96 Galloway National GC (Galloway, NJ) 66
97 Club at Black Rock (Coeur d'Alene, ID) 66
98 Shooting Star GC (Teton Village, WY) 64
99 Blackwolf Run GC--River (Kohler, WI) 60
100 Eagle Point GC (Wilmington, NC) 60
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Rock Creek still too far down. I am glad Sahalee didn't crack the top 100.
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Kalen,
Would love to see that list if GD were taken out of the equation. They seem to mess everything up.
Sven
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Rock Creek still too far down. I am glad Sahalee didn't crack the top 100.
Jim - You like any list that has Baltimore CC in the top 100 ;) Although in all honesty, I don't know anyone that has played it that does not include it in their top 100.
Is Canyata the most polarizing golf course in the US? GD has it very high and others don't think it is top 250. What are people's thoughts on Canyata?
Also is there anyone here that has played Double Eagle that thinks it is top 100. Very private, well maintained but the course is not top 200 IMHO.
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Kalen,
Would love to see that list if GD were taken out of the equation. They seem to mess everything up.
Sven
Sven,
By assigning those extra "bonus" points...it actually had the effect of removing more GD courses from the final list than any other magazines list.
I think GD has a pretty solid top 50, its the bottom 51 to 100 where things get a little skewampus. I suspect GD also has the biggest pool of raters over any other list, so with more people you get more variabilty, hence the varied results.
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I suspect GD also has the biggest pool of raters over any other list, so with more people you get more variabilty, hence the varied results.
I don't recall this concept from my Stats classes...
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I suspect GD also has the biggest pool of raters over any other list, so with more people you get more variabilty, hence the varied results.
I don't recall this concept from my Stats classes...
Jud,
Please elaborate. Are you saying 30 raters will produce the same result as 800 raters?
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I'm saying more raters produces more homogenized results, not less, therefore it's Digest's criteria that's the real issue.
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I know that it is fashionable in this here neighborhood to bang on Golf Digest's method of rating golf courses. And I recognize that its list does have some outliers that I just cannot fathom, like the manifestly unworthy Rich Harvest here in greater Chicagoland, but I think there's nothing wrong with including resistance to par/difficulty in a rating for a Top 100 golf course. Maybe that's heresy, but it seems to have as much validity as the prized-in-gca-land "walk in the park" factor of Golfweek. If you want to talk about homogeneity of results, there's plenty of evidence of that in GW's list, too.
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Jud,
I still think there are other things at play here that can explain this.
If the majority of golfers on Golf Digest are "regional raters"...meaning they don't travel more than a few hundred miles from home to play the vast majority of thier golf...then couldn't we see bias in the numbers where they rate the best courses they've seen fairly high.
As compared to say a smaller group of 30 raters...who travel much more extensively and have seen a lot more courses, hence more data points to rely on that just mostly regional courses.
Its just a hypothesis, nut would be interesting to see how "mobile/well traveled" each set of raters are for thier respective magazines.
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P.S. Jud, I'm not so sure I agree with your premise about more=homogenous.
For example,
If we polled everyone in the U.S. as to what thier religion is...I'm guessing we would have a fairly homogenous result that was mostly Christianity.
But if we polled everyone in the world, which is a much bigger sample size, the result would become far more heterogeneos in that now there would be Christianity, Judeaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc, etc.
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I know that it is fashionable in this here neighborhood to bang on Golf Digest's method of rating golf courses. And I recognize that its list does have some outliers that I just cannot fathom, like the manifestly unworthy Rich Harvest here in greater Chicagoland, but I think there's nothing wrong with including resistance to par/difficulty in a rating for a Top 100 golf course. Maybe that's heresy, but it seems to have as much validity as the prized-in-gca-land "walk in the park" factor of Golfweek. If you want to talk about homogeneity of results, there's plenty of evidence of that in GW's list, too.
I agree with your post. One question - does Golf Digest also have a category for playability. If they are going to penalize a course for being not hard enough, they should also penalize the courses for being too hard and thus not playable for the average golfer. IF they do, it is entirely fair.
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I know that it is fashionable in this here neighborhood to bang on Golf Digest's method of rating golf courses. And I recognize that its list does have some outliers that I just cannot fathom, like the manifestly unworthy Rich Harvest here in greater Chicagoland, but I think there's nothing wrong with including resistance to par/difficulty in a rating for a Top 100 golf course. Maybe that's heresy, but it seems to have as much validity as the prized-in-gca-land "walk in the park" factor of Golfweek. If you want to talk about homogeneity of results, there's plenty of evidence of that in GW's list, too.
Terry,
I think the difference is Golf Digest rigidly decides that Resistance to Scoring is 1/8th of what makes a golf course great. Golfweek has its Walk in the Park as a category, but unless I'm mistaken, the amount that that particular category makes up a Given rater's final score isn't fixed -- it might be everything to one panelist and completely irrelevant to another. The publications other than GD let their panelists decide what's important to them. Golf Digest trusts their panelists enough to quantify things like Shot Values and Ambience but not enough to decide which categories are important to them.
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Michael,
http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/2011-05/100-greatest-golf-courses-methodology
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I know that it is fashionable in this here neighborhood to bang on Golf Digest's method of rating golf courses. And I recognize that its list does have some outliers that I just cannot fathom, like the manifestly unworthy Rich Harvest here in greater Chicagoland, but I think there's nothing wrong with including resistance to par/difficulty in a rating for a Top 100 golf course. Maybe that's heresy, but it seems to have as much validity as the prized-in-gca-land "walk in the park" factor of Golfweek. If you want to talk about homogeneity of results, there's plenty of evidence of that in GW's list, too.
I agree with your post. One question - does Golf Digest also have a category for playability. If they are going to penalize a course for being not hard enough, they should also penalize the courses for being too hard and thus not playable for the average golfer. IF they do, it is entirely fair.
The problem with this logic is determining what is too easy or hard and for whom. It probably makes more sense to downgrade a course that doesn't have reasonable length variation or even better, reasonable variation in how long the holes play.
Ciao
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P.S. Jud, I'm not so sure I agree with your premise about more=homogenous.
For example,
If we polled everyone in the U.S. as to what thier religion is...I'm guessing we would have a fairly homogenous result that was mostly Christianity.
But if we polled everyone in the world, which is a much bigger sample size, the result would become far more heterogeneos in that now there would be Christianity, Judeaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc, etc.
Kalen, Jud is correct. It is pretty basic statistics. More samples you have, more homogenous the result is.
You are using the example in the wrong way. If you polled 10 people in US, there is a chance that all 10 people say they are Wiccans - which would not be very representative of the overall population. More you sample, more reflective of the true representation the result will be.
In your example, polling just US for the world-wide spread of religion would result in a skewed result - because your sample was too isolated. Once you opened up the sample size to the rest of the world, more representative result was found.
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Apparently a $208,000 U of M degree is still worth something besides the paper it's printed on... ;)