Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Nick Pozaric on January 22, 2012, 02:18:52 PM
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What are some courses you have played that have had good caddie programs and for what reasons would you call them a good program? Also on the flip side feel free to share any bad stories or experiences.
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I feel like East Lake's caddy program is amazing.
First off, the course is walking only with caddies.
Secondly, the rejuvenation of the poverty stricken neighborhood with the golf course as one of the centerpieces created job opportunities for the youth within the neighborhood.
Thirdly, there are scholarship programs available to caddies to help them with college education, specifically the Charles Harrision Scholar program. Great man, great scholarship.
And I've seen first hand these caddies rise through the ranks of neighborhood kid, caddy, golf club management staff...pretty amazing! And I've also seen these kids uses their college education and East Lake golfer network to land some pretty nice jobs outside of the club.
Oh yeah, and there are some good caddies there as well that can save you a stroke (or five) if you listen to them.
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Chicago.
Where i caddied and started my love for GCA. Caddies or forecaddies are nearly mandatory when available. The list of top golfers including who have caddied there include several CEOs not to mentioned PGA tour players.
Similar to East Lake, Detroit Golf Club, is a great exampleof bringing golf to an inner city area.
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Ballyneal. I hope it survives so the locals can work there.
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Old Memorial in Tampa. The caddies carry single bags and are required for every player and the caddies are great.
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I belong to two clubs with caddies. One has a completely average program with a handful of excellent caddies. The other is Saucon Valley and the caddies are almost always superb. Here is are the little things they do that really make a difference:
1) The caddies "work ahead" and are usually at the ball before the player. I hate waiting for a club unless the caddy really had a problem with the other shoulder.
2) They are ready with the distance, usually giving me the number to the front and to the pin. I love that!
3) They will temporarily swap bags with the other caddy when two players are left and two are right
4) At the green, they meet me at my ball with a wet towel extended. I don't have to chase them to ask for a wipe.
5) They read greens when I ask and keep quiet when I don't.
In summary, they are "into it" and they hustle.
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Old Memorial....Aside from overall good caddying the stats they keep on your card are impressive...
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Old Memorial....Aside from overall good caddying the stats they keep on your card are impressive...
Having just played there this week, I'd wholeheartedly agree. They are far beyond competent and add much to the experience. Single bag loops make for a greater connection and better service and that what these guys deliver.
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All of my awful caddie experiences are at courses that use an outside company to hire, train, and run the caddie program. The two worst were TPC Sawgrass and Erin Hills. They seem to run off a script, and the caddies I've had don't seem to know what they are doing (one got us lost on the course and made us walk an extra 500 yards between two holes). I have also found that courses that use caddie companies charge much larger fees. There seems to be a fee for the loop (which I imagine goes to the company) and then a large suggested gratuity. After one terrible experience, I was told that if I didn't give the caddie the entire suggested gratuity, I would have to meet with management to explain myself.
My good caddie experiences have come from clubs that seem to do it themselves, and I have found clubs involved with Evans Scholars have been great. Some of the best I've had were at Milwaukee CC, Blue Mound CC, and Flossmoor.
I also had good experiences at St. Andrews, Carnoustie, and Royal Cinque Ports.
My most memorable caddie experience was at Pinehurst. It was the first time I had a caddie, and he was amazing. He'd been at the course for nearly 40 years, and had tons of great stories in addition to knowing every bump on the course.
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My last time at Ballyneal I had a caddie who is an Evans Scholar - great kid and a lot of fun when I borrowed a set of hickories. He told me that the scholarship got him free tuition and room so he worked 5 days a week in the kitchen at a sorority house for free meals - he admitted to me that he is now dating one of the sorority sisters.
I understand that an outside firm operates the caddy program at Augusta National and I have to believe that the caddies are top notch.
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From my one visit to Chicago I believe Beverley runs an excellent program as does Olympia Fields. Those more familiar with these clubs can provide more information in support or otherwise.
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The program they run at Sankaty Head on Nantucket is very cool. There was a nice article about it in Golf World in the fall last year.
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Canterbury Golf Club. We have a wonderful caddy program at Canterbury. By in large, the members embrace it and our caddiemaster, Mike Kiely, is a living legend. He's been at the club for almost 50 years. There are a handful of members that grew up as caddies for Kiely.
Kiely is definitely the biggest reason as to why our caddie program is successful, but you definitely need the members to embrace it as well. If you have 10 great caddies sitting on the bench because nobody wants to take them, it won't be too long before those caddies go elsewhere to find a loop.
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Bandon. Yes, there's some consternation that you don't always know if you're getting the same guy and whether or not he'll be doubling, but the caddies are almost to a man very good.
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Old Memorial....Aside from overall good caddying the stats they keep on your card are impressive...
Having just played there this week, I'd wholeheartedly agree. They are far beyond competent and add much to the experience. Single bag loops make for a greater connection and better service and that what these guys deliver.
Hah. My first request at OM is to tell my caddy NOT to keep my stats. I recognize that I'll only be hitting 6 fairways, I don't need a reminder! It's also one of the few places I've been where members are bummed out if they only have a foursome. Hawk is the preferred game there and the caddies love to get in the action for the back 9.
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After one terrible experience, I was told that if I didn't give the caddie the entire suggested gratuity, I would have to meet with management to explain myself.
care to share which course this was? remind me never to take a caddie there.
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I belong to two clubs with caddies. One has a completely average program with a handful of excellent caddies. The other is Saucon Valley and the caddies are almost always superb. Here is are the little things they do that really make a difference:
1) The caddies "work ahead" and are usually at the ball before the player. I hate waiting for a club unless the caddy really had a problem with the other shoulder.
2) They are ready with the distance, usually giving me the number to the front and to the pin. I love that!
3) They will temporarily swap bags with the other caddy when two players are left and two are right
4) At the green, they meet me at my ball with a wet towel extended. I don't have to chase them to ask for a wipe.
5) They read greens when I ask and keep quiet when I don't.
In summary, they are "into it" and they hustle.
Sounds like caddies are usually caring double there, which makes the service even more impressive. I have found that most of my issues which caddies usually involve doubles.
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Good caddie programmes are great but what about when they start to affect membership numbers?
I know of a fine club with a good caddie programme, two mates would be interested in joining, the club is interested in new members, yet they do not want the additional $75 expense of a caddie everytime they play. Caddies can be great but are also a luxury item.
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For those that desire a caddie to be a single, would you be willing to pay a minimum of 50% more for the luxury? Say it's $60 a bag the fee for a single would be a minimum of $90.
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For those that desire a caddie to be a single, would you be willing to pay a minimum of 50% more for the luxury? Say it's $60 a bag the fee for a single would be a minimum of $90.
Although we have done this dance many times before a good caddie can provide a quality experience with two bags just as a rotten caddy can wreck your day with one bag. Just sayin although I expect opposing viewpoints.
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For those that desire a caddie to be a single, would you be willing to pay a minimum of 50% more for the luxury? Say it's $60 a bag the fee for a single would be a minimum of $90.
Cliff,
Tim has it bang on -- one bag or two, it's all about the quality of the caddie.
But, as a generality, I'd be willing to pay 50% more for a single bag. I don't often take caddies, but when I do it's because I'm playing somewhere special. If $30 is going to make for a better experience, then it's worth it.
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I'll tell you one place where the caddies really tick me off: Pebble Beach!
First time I played there I show up with my lightweight single strap carry bag. When I came out of the pro shop, the caddy was transferring my clubs to another lightweight bag, so I asked "what are you doing?" And he says my bag is too heavy... Now I am really fussy about my bag and where I keep everything, so I asked him not to do it, but he said he had a bad back (with a smirk on his face... the guy was 5' 10" and built like a rock.) He got the minimum from me, something I NEVER do.
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Posted on: Today at 11:05:14 AMPosted by: Bill Brightly
I'll tell you one place where the caddies really tick me off: Pebble Beach!
First time I played there I show up with my lightweight single strap carry bag. When I came out of the pro shop, the caddy was transferring my clubs to another lightweight bag, so I asked "what are you doing?" And he says my bag is too heavy... Now I am really fussy about my bag and where I keep everything, so I asked him not to do it, but he said he had a bad back (with a smirk on his face... the guy was 5' 10" and built like a rock.) He got the minimum from me, something I NEVER do.
A well-known golf writer colleague of mine once told me something similar. He said he has a lightweight bag with half-a-dozen balls, a few gloves, tees, etc, and the PB caddie insisted he switch to one of their bags.
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I carry a Mackenzie and got the same treatment. then i got told which tees to play, and blew it over a bunker that should have been in play. Really disliked it.
I cannot stand people going through my bag. If Al Czervik shos up, you tell him he's gotta switch. BEFORE you touch his stuff. Guy with one bag tag on a Mackenzie--you leave him alone.
In fact, i'll say that these nationally run caddie programs are lousy. I got a looper at pinehurst that would not shut up. I got double charged at Doral.
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As to Cliff quote, carrying two or singles the cost at some clubs is getting just too high and in the long run will have a negative effect. I believe that $50 to $60 per bag is fair, last year I had to pay $125 before tip.
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I'll tell you one place where the caddies really tick me off: Pebble Beach!
First time I played there I show up with my lightweight single strap carry bag. When I came out of the pro shop, the caddy was transferring my clubs to another lightweight bag, so I asked "what are you doing?" And he says my bag is too heavy... Now I am really fussy about my bag and where I keep everything, so I asked him not to do it, but he said he had a bad back (with a smirk on his face... the guy was 5' 10" and built like a rock.) He got the minimum from me, something I NEVER do.
I had a similar situation at Bandon. Granted, I had a lot of shit in my bag, umbrella, rainsuit, wanting to be fully prepared for whatever weather showed up. I got to the first tee with my looper transferring my clubs to another bag. I told him he could put everything back in my bag or I'd find someone else to carry it. He put my stuff back. About five minutes later, the starter quietly came up to me and THANKED me for the way in which I handled the situation. Apparently even he had had enough of the roughshod tactics of the caddies. I spent two days with the caddy, never mentioned the situation again, and had a great time.
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I can`t really understand a caddie switching everything out for a single bag unless it is a monster. For two bags I will cut the guy some slack. When we carried two of those monster Burton leather bags back in the day there was no switching.
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For those that desire a caddie to be a single, would you be willing to pay a minimum of 50% more for the luxury? Say it's $60 a bag the fee for a single would be a minimum of $90.
I usually end up doing that via the Tip.
I am not opposed to doubles per say, however, only a top caddie should be carrying doubles. Unfortunately when either a less experienced or less in shape caddy carries 2x, then it can actually slow down play.
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Unfortunately, sometimes it's a crap shoot on which caddie you get at a course/resort.
Last year at Sea Island, my first round was with a local kid who couldn't read a green or give accurate yardage. And that was with me playing as a single.
The next day, I had a 20-year veteran who split his year looping at Sea Island and Whistling Straits. Had to be one of the top five caddies I've ever had, and I requested him the next day when my wife also played.
I've also had good experiences with the caddies at Pinehurst and Kiawah; I can't offer a blanket approval for Kiawah as I requested specific caddies for the rounds.
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I must inhabit another world.
I thought club caddies had died out in the 1930's. My eleven year old son sometimes works my bag (and push trolley), but at £10 a round even that is a little too expensive!
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After one terrible experience, I was told that if I didn't give the caddie the entire suggested gratuity, I would have to meet with management to explain myself.
care to share which course this was? remind me never to take a caddie there.
Mark,
It was at Erin Hills. The whole caddie experience there was bad. First, there wasn't a difference in price for a single or double loop. I said if there isn't a price break then I want a single, but was told that all caddies had to go out as doubles unless there was an odd number of players. I don't mind the double, but I think each player should get a break on the price since he gets half the attention. The caddie will still get more money than a single. Then the caddie gave me the worst advice on a couple of critical shots, one leading to my only bogey of the day (I'm still upset about that three years later). So after about three holes, I didn't ask for help, he spent most of the time with my father (he was stuggling that day and missing lots of fairways), and to top it off he got us lost. We arrived at a par three, and I asked "are you sure this is the right hole, the card says it should be a long par 4?" He said, "no, pretty sure this is right." Just then a group came up a different path, and was not too happy to see us. Turns out we were on the wrong hole. We walked back to the previous green, then halfway back up the previous hole, then back to the green until luckily we found a grounds crew member to direct us to the next tee. I figure it was 500-600 yards in extra walking. When we finish, I took our clubs to the car while my dad settles up with the caddie. My dad tells him that he felt there were some problems, and that he is only going to give him $75 for the two of us instead of the $100 suggested ($50 / player). This was on top of the $35-40 each we paid in the shop. He admitted to the problems, but said he needed the entire amount or else we had to talk to management. My dad gave him the moeny because he wanted to leave since we had a two hour drive home. I didn't find out until we were on the road or else I would have said something. I sent an email to the course explaining what happened, but never got an answer.
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After one terrible experience, I was told that if I didn't give the caddie the entire suggested gratuity, I would have to meet with management to explain myself.
care to share which course this was? remind me never to take a caddie there.
Mark,
It was at Erin Hills. The whole caddie experience there was bad. First, there wasn't a difference in price for a single or double loop. I said if there isn't a price break then I want a single, but was told that all caddies had to go out as doubles unless there was an odd number of players. I don't mind the double, but I think each player should get a break on the price since he gets half the attention. The caddie will still get more money than a single. Then the caddie gave me the worst advice on a couple of critical shots, one leading to my only bogey of the day (I'm still upset about that three years later). So after about three holes, I didn't ask for help, he spent most of the time with my father (he was stuggling that day and missing lots of fairways), and to top it off he got us lost. We arrived at a par three, and I asked "are you sure this is the right hole, the card says it should be a long par 4?" He said, "no, pretty sure this is right." Just then a group came up a different path, and was not too happy to see us. Turns out we were on the wrong hole. We walked back to the previous green, then halfway back up the previous hole, then back to the green until luckily we found a grounds crew member to direct us to the next tee. I figure it was 500-600 yards in extra walking. When we finish, I took our clubs to the car while my dad settles up with the caddie. My dad tells him that he felt there were some problems, and that he is only going to give him $75 for the two of us instead of the $100 suggested ($50 / player). This was on top of the $35-40 each we paid in the shop. He admitted to the problems, but said he needed the entire amount or else we had to talk to management. My dad gave him the moeny because he wanted to leave since we had a two hour drive home. I didn't find out until we were on the road or else I would have said something. I sent an email to the course explaining what happened, but never got an answer.
wow.... just wow.
i almost guessed erin hills. I got into a debate with the shop there once because I was going to carry my own bag.
They threatened to charge me because I didnt tell them in advance that I didnt want a caddy. It was pretty clear that a pretty good portion of the caddy fee was not going to the caddy.
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I can`t really understand a caddie switching everything out for a single bag unless it is a monster. For two bags I will cut the guy some slack. When we carried two of those monster Burton leather bags back in the day there was no switching.
If you caddied with Burton bags like I did, you probably also did it at a time when no shorts were allowed. Blue jeans in 90+ weather!
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As usual, a very interesting array of responses. From my experience, the quality of the program is usually in direct correlation to the level of commitment by the facility ownership/management, and the caliber-selection of a seasoned individual, or team, to lead the caddie staff.
Most outsource models, including Augusta, have a great disparity in actual caddie ability within the staff. The great majority of the folks hired by these entities to run them do not have the years of experience, and multiple skill sets required, to run a top-notch caddie program...no matter the elite level of the course. These outsource organizations offer outstanding lip-service about preserving the caddie tradition and the like, but in the main, it's all about the bag fee and conforming to a certain "caddie 101 by the numbers" approach. As long as there are no major complaints, let mediocrity reign and rake in that extortionate fee, sometimes up to $25.00 per bag of the caddie's fee!!!
As someone who caddied at Pebble Beach for over a decade, it is unfortunate that some caddies there, including veterans who should know the proper approach, sometimes take a cavalier attitude and don't ASK the playing guest if they may switch out their bag. That should NOT happen! I hate to say it, but that's what persists when an outsource model is your answer to running a caddie program.
Now, with all due respect to the many former caddies in the GCA ranks, and I also packed the Burton and leather trunks during my early years in the caddie ranks of that era...we can't think there is ANY COMPARISON in judging the demands on career-caddies' backs, that in the case of Pebble and Bandon(which has only been around since 1999), work YEAR ROUND in an often very harsh environment. Just having worked Summers, or Northern or Southern seasons, and some cameos doesn't stack up when comparing the wear and tear that a decades looper, year-round, racks up. The strap on the bag MUST be a quality SINGLE strap. It also is NOT just making due with one appendage of the awful double-strap efforts many players feel is no problem for a caddie, EVEN those carrying double. Wake up folks, those things ride the shoulder like crap, are poorly balanced and only ensure that you will have a grumpy caddie.
So long as the caddie asks the player about switching the bag, WELL before the round, when he is INTRODUCED to the player by the caddie manager/mentor on duty, things generally go well. There are also the "Linus-types," that INSIST on having THEIR bag carried. Think about that one fellas. So long as all your equipment and personals are on board..what DIFFERENCE does having YOUR bag make...other than enabling the caddie, who is DOING the job, to be more comfortable while carrying. Where's the crime in that?
Some players seem to have difficulty with the one "one caddie working for two players" mantra. Players, especially most of those that frequent this site, should understand that you need to work WITH the caddie. I've rarely ever had a problem sharing a caddie. Take the proper attitude, use a partnership approach, and the round should go well.
It's GREAT when you can have a QUALITY one caddie-per-player dynamic, but that is rare. Good caddies don't grow on trees. They also need to earn a living, something many on this site seem to take exception too. It's easy to be cheap. Go play non-caddie golf. As we all know, many of the greatest courses, in the main are...thankfully, STILL caddie facilities.
To those that believe caddie golf is some dying vestige of yester-year, please read this next line slowly.
The more caddie golf suffers from a lack of "re-investment" from the game, the quicker golf will continue it's descent, worldwide.
When somethng has contributed more differencemakers and champions to the game than any other single source, by ANY MEASURE, and you neglect it...decay is sure to follow. Examine the golf landscape. How's that picture looking? From an American perspective, bear in mind that the PGA Tour and USGA are currently enjoying milk and honey days according to their own reports.
Old Memorial has a superb caddie staff. The best depth, save Pebble in the glory days of the 90s, that I've been around. Cypress Point is right up there at the top. While I'd like to rip off a short list of Philly's finest, I feel that while a number of our tracks have some fine caddies, the overall depth, particularly younger caddies, needs improvement. We're working to rectify that! I'm sure the Evans, Ouimet boosters in our gang have some strong youth-oriented caddie programs to note.
To me, the very best caddie programs have a total commitment from the facility top-to-bottom that they are about "caddie golf." That doesn't mean that every round must be with caddies, or that carts are out. Rather it means that players will take caddies regularly and embrace the opportunites it provides for both their game AND benefits for others that might otherwise have limited access to find and stay around the game long enough to play it for a lifetime. The finest also have diversity in: age groups, ethnicity and gender. The are very few that hit all these notes consistently. Like anything done well...commitment and craft are essential.
The more golf invests in the caddie dynamic, the richer the rewards for the game.
Cheers,
Kris 8)
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Kris - Fantastic post! Well put and thanks for sharing your thoughts.
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Kris- email or PM me your cell and what day/time you are getting to the PGA Show. Here now.
S
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My taste are a little different for caddies, when I use a caddie I like to walk with and talk to them about the course and history (if any of the course). Most of the time it is my first time playing a course and I can learn a lot. I hate it when the caddie runs down the fairway and I do not know where to hit it and line of play.
Then if I play another loop, my favorite is a place that offers cart and/or caddies. I will ask for the caddie to drive the cart and I will ride and walk. However, more places do not allow this for insurance reasons.
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I like the programs at Lehigh CC and Omaha CC where they have different levels of caddies and job descriptions. For instance, at Lehigh a young man simply carried my bag - that was the deal, for a reasonable fee. Perfect.
Bogey
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I played somewhere where a caddie was taking my stuff out of the bag to be stored. As I don't carry stuff I know I will not need I requested he put the stuff back. I tell ya, its a bad way to start the day - finding someone fooling around with your stuff. I don't mind if a caddie wants to slap on is own strap, but I really don't want my stuff taken out or transferred. Its a guarantee that eventually stuff will go missing. Caddie programs are much better off charging extra for bigger bags rather than switching bags.
Kris - you must remember that for most folks a caddie is not a financial option. Shit, in the UK I would guess the caddie per round of a club would cost more than the golf! If I were to get caddies, I want young bag carriers rather than over-priced "experts".
My comments come with a warning that I have never had what I would call a very good caddie.
Ciao
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Let me also chime in to say my caddie experience at Ballyneal was nothing short of 1st rate.
The kid hustled, never complained, and was Johnny on the spot with clubs, yardages, and even the occasional water bottle...terrific experience.
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Lots of great privates in Chicago with caddy programs. Ash's mention of Beverly is correct, but I think that the folks at nearby Ridge might argue that while their course is no match for Bev, their caddy program surely is. In my rounds at Butler I had one horrible caddy and one guy that crawled into my head and got me around that course in 79 glorious strokes (an accomplishment for this chop!). They used to have a guy named Billy at Evanston that could see two swings and pick clubs the rest of the day -- and even tho they double at Evanston I never once waited for Billy (he could hand you two clubs after your tee shot as he walked to your partner's ball and invariably one was correct). The kid I had at Ballyneal was a bag toter, but the Jerry Franklin experience at Pebble was sublime. . . you want jokes and stories, he had em; you want reads on putts AND chips, he'd give them to you.
It will be interesting to see if we get a response from Mr. Wagner about the experience at Erin Hills. I haven't been back since they told me I couldn't push my Sun Mountain around.
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Calusa Pines has a wonderful caddie program. Every time I have played there, I had a different caddie and enjoyed each of them.
The Dunes Club - not only was my caddie the best looking at the outing, she was spot on and was a joy to be around. If only I would have listened to her more ::)
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I like the programs at Lehigh CC and Omaha CC where they have different levels of caddies and job descriptions. For instance, at Lehigh a young man simply carried my bag - that was the deal, for a reasonable fee. Perfect.
If I were to get caddies, I want young bag carriers rather than over-priced "experts".
I agree. I don't mind and in fact I prefer bag carriers to caddies but I also don't mind paying for a good job. What bugs me are courses (most of the time high-end resort courses) that charge you for a professional caddie but give you a bag carrier.
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does anybody know of a club with one of the nationally run caddie programs, whose program is superior (or even equal to) a good program run by a neighboring club.
I have gotten these nationally run programs at resorts, and never has the experience been anywhere close to my home club's program--an NYC area club with a "top third" caddie program. regularly i get a mediocre loop and pay $50+ MORE than i do in NYC.
All i want from a caddie is a positive attitude, a desire to keep up, and for him to let me pull the club. I'll figure out whether he can read a green, give me yardage, etc. by the third tee, and i'll adjust my expectations accordingly.
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The Dunes Club - not only was my caddie the best looking at the outing, she was spot on and was a joy to be around. If only I would have listened to her more ::)
So you were the lucky one who had that caddie...
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We all have bad caddie stories. Most courses that have caddies have both great one and Mediocre ones. My club, Four Steeams, has had a good caddie program for years.
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Dan B.,
Cheers!
Sean,
I respect your take. I realize the the UK gang, devoid of much domestic context regarding caddie golf, frequently has been challenged in getting their arms around the whole caddie golf mantra. I'm of modest means compared to many on this site and certainly play the majority of my regular golf without caddies.That said, I take a caddie WHENEVER possible if a facility offers the option. My passion for caddie golf is obvious, it's how I found the game, like tens of thousands of others. To not utilize and contribute, to sustaining the caddie dynamic, when it has given me and the game so much, would be the height of hypocrisy.
I regret that you have not yet had the opportunity to enjoy the tremendous experience a QUALITY caddie can add to a round. Perhaps we can make that a reality one day soon. I'm fairly certain you would come away with a much deeper respect for the caddie dynamic and the contributions that they have made to golf throughout its history.
Paul Jones,
As a dear, old-school caddie buddie of mine who sadly is no longer with us would often remark, "Caddies should NEVER run on the golf course!" I detest caddies running on a course almost as much as I hate seeing litter on one. Swiftness can be accomplished WITHOUT running. Most four-caddie golf, with constant racing out ahead, is unnecessary, unless the hole is blind or the course is poorly designed. Light conditions, glare, and hazards all factor in, but quite often the tee area itself provides the best vantage point for caddies to see the tee shot, provided they have good eyesight and know how to mark a ball visually where it ends up. The only time I feel that a caddie should be seen scurrying on a track is doubling back to get a headcover they dropped! ;D"
Mark,
That Jerry is quite the card!
Ben,
I'm not at OM. I played there last year.
Kris 8)
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Not only can it slow down play, in fact, it actually does. In all circumstances. All you have to do is have to wait to hit one time, and by definition, play has been slowed down.
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And all it takes is one time when the caddy walks right to my ball in the woods because he was foecaddying... and all that wait time is more than forgiven
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Bill,
"......he was foecaddying..."? Ah yes! That is ".... the caddy who walks right to my (opponents) ball in the woods" but doesn't find it!
Cheers Colin
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Does anyone here on the board feel that Caddie fee's have gotten out of hand and they're just to expensive in my opinion.
I would love to hear what everyone else thinks.
Lawrence
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Does anyone here on the board feel that Caddie fee's have gotten out of hand and they're just to expensive in my opinion.
I would love to hear what everyone else thinks.
Lawrence
I would agree for the most part.
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Does anyone here on the board feel that Caddie fee's have gotten out of hand and they're just to expensive in my opinion.
I would love to hear what everyone else thinks.
Lawrence
I tend to agree. The more expensive caddie fees get, the less likely folks are to take a caddie. That's a sad truth.
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I'm not a cheap scape by any means. I'm a fairly decent player and with my experience most caddies are trained for 10 to 15 handicap. They always leave my putter head cover off and most of the time my woods. What really makes me upset is that most of the time the better you are to the caddies the poorer the service. Plainfield caddies are some of the best I've had and the Olde Farm being the worst. Golf is getting more and more expensive and sadly this just adds to it. I have a club in my area that I would like to join but forecaddies are mandatory and you're not allowed to carry clubs at anytime. Most clubs now want you to give 80 to 100 a round. Now thats 20 to 25 dollars a hour on a four hour round. My wife has a teaching degree and spent 5 years in college and doesn't make that much. I find it hard to pay someone that cleans my ball and gives me bad advise all day more than her.
Lawrence
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I love going out with caddies. You usually end up with two extremes...1) you establish a relationship with the guy and become friends, 2) the caddy is so bad that you get great stories to share for eternity.
Examples...
East Lake caddies...I have the same guys I go out with time and time again. I love them. And look forward to hearing about what they've been up to in life. Marriages, engagements, kids, etc. It is like being with old friends.
Bandon caddy...At the end of day 2 (or 3 I can't remember)...my legs hurt so bad I can barely walk, let alone swing the club. I am in the middle of a match with fellow golfers and I ask the caddy to be my partner and we will play alternate shot and keep the match going. He was a great player, I was sucking wind, we made a good team...fun!
Ballyneal...A certain pavement dude from the mid-west has this caddy that is epic. One particular instance of this caddy's skill and work ethic goes like this: Pavement dude slices a shot off the tee just a bit and it lands in the long-grass/rough/gunchy stuff...caddy and golfer walk to the area where the ball came down. Caddy stands and does nothing while the pavement dude/golfer searches through the rough looking for his ball. Pavement dude looks over at the caddy and says, "Is this the first time one of your golfers ever missed a fairway?"
Quite funny. But not as funny as another caddy/golfer pair at the same place...golfer slices his shot way into the gunch. Golfer asks caddy, "Did you see where that one landed?" Caddy, "Hell no."
Hilarious!!! I'm sure the golfer (who is a GCA.com member) was thinking, "Thanks for the help on that one, pal."
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Does anyone here on the board feel that Caddie fee's have gotten out of hand and they're just to expensive in my opinion.
I would love to hear what everyone else thinks.
Lawrence,
For the number of times I take a caddie per year, it doesn't overly bother me as long as the caddie is decent. It is frustrating to pay $100 for bad service, of course.
Slightly OT (and I've said it before), but I've never entirely understood courses that have mandatory caddies for members. I recognize that members need to support the caddie program if they want one, and golfers choose where they want to join, but for those golfers without an unlimited budget, it would be a massive additional expense. In a year-round climate, based on 2-3 rounds per week on one's home course, that's about 100 rounds per year. At $100 per round, that's $10,000!
My caddie at East Lake said to me: "can you believe some members here are so cheap they actually wait to play after 2:00 pm [when caddies are not mandatory]". Darned right I believe it.
Also, maybe caddies should be paid per hour? I often play on my own, in the first tee-time of the day in about 2 hours. At one well-known club I was set for the first time of the day and the member the pro had scheduled for me to play with cancelled that morning. No caddie got there early enough so my caddie was a short-order cook who had played the course a handful of times. We played in just under 2.5 hours -- and for $120 caddie fee (incl. tip), I felt ripped-off (though the guy was as nice as could be).
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Does anyone here on the board feel that Caddie fee's have gotten out of hand and they're just to expensive in my opinion.
I would love to hear what everyone else thinks.
Lawrence,
For the number of times I take a caddie per year, it doesn't overly bother me as long as the caddie is decent. It is frustrating to pay $100 for bad service, of course.
Slightly OT (and I've said it before), but I've never entirely understood courses that have mandatory caddies for members. I recognize that members need to support the caddie program if they want one, and golfers choose where they want to join, but for those golfers without an unlimited budget, it would be a massive additional expense. In a year-round climate, based on 2-3 rounds per week on one's home course, that's about 100 rounds per year. At $100 per round, that's $10,000!
My caddie at East Lake said to me: "can you believe some members here are so cheap they actually wait to play after 2:00 pm [when caddies are not mandatory]". Darned right I believe it.
Also, maybe caddies should be paid per hour? I often play on my own, in the first tee-time of the day in about 2 hours. At one well-known club I was set for the first time of the day and the member the pro had scheduled for me to play with cancelled that morning. No caddie got there early enough so my caddie was a short-order cook who had played the course a handful of times. We played in just under 2.5 hours -- and for $120 caddie fee (incl. tip), I felt ripped-off (though the guy was as nice as could be).
I wouldn't join a club that told me I had to take a caddy.
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Mac,
I remember once caddying on Carnoustie and the 16th. hole named Barry Burn was playing into a stiff breeze as is its wont.
Now at a good 220 yards off the front of the tee it is a long par3 in anybody's book. The player in question (not my man!) had been
testing his caddy's patience (a wee, gnarled, wizened chap wearing a flat-cap and an overcoat....I'm not kidding he was a caricature of the old-school Scottish caddy if ever there was one). The player continuously under-clubbed against the sage advice of of this caddy.
Anyway the player asked his caddy if he thought a 5-iron would be the club. After a few moments thought the caddy answered "Why yes......providing you hit it often enough!"
Thank God there was only 2 holes left to play as containing our mirth was big ask!
Cheers Colin
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Remember that a caddie who loops 300 rounds per year at an average $80 per round makes $24,000 per year. Food, gas and groceries, and maybe a girl friend if he's handsome and nice.
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Kris
I don't have a disrespect for the caddie/player dynamic. I am just not interesting in paying much for it and there is no way I would join a club which required caddies. I will go to my grave with the idea that a caddie should be a youngster looking for spending money, not someone trying to feed a family. Indeed, if your idea of taking caddies a load of the time is to have any truck, it is only my idea of the caddie which has any chance to work.
Ciao
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If it was addressed in the previous 2.5 pages of this thread and you take offense at my review, thanks anyway.
We are discussing two disparate caddie programs, right? The first is the one that primarily employs teenagers and college kids, while the second employs career caddies.
The former should be a place where youngsters learn much more than they earn, where the caddie-master serves as a de-facto guide through the murky waters of customer relations, service industry and the basics of holding down a job. These 'yout' earn some cash and supplement their wages with golf course access (usually on Mondays.)
The later are fellows who have you convinced (and they may be correct) that golf is better when you have a bag man. I suppose that if golf is to be a break from reality, an entry into a fantasy land, it might as well be with a "brah" who clubs me, strokes my ego, explains the nuances of the course and encourages me toward a finer score. I love that type of service but, like many, cannot afford it more than 1x-2x a year.
I'm a big supporter of the former and recognize the need (although not the bullying/encouragement sometimes involved) in the latter, program model.
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My favourite time to get a caddy is when I'm on my own - then it's great to have the company.
Paying someone to carry my bag and chat to me while I play alone stikes me as too sad for words...
...I'd be inclined to tell him to go and get his clubs so we could make a game of it.
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Thanks for all of the replies. For all of those that had good experiences can you give specific examples of what was good about it?
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Thanks for all of the replies. For all of those that had good experiences can you give specific examples of what was good about it?
I belong to two clubs with caddies, so I have had a lot of experience with all types. The best can really enhance the experience, the worst are an annoyance. I think many people who do not regularly use caddies can be intimidated, but the best thing to do is set the ground rules. Thanks, but I'll read my own putts unless I ask for help. You can help by getting me to focus on a target. On a new course, it helps to have a caddy give you an idea of course strategy. And the biggest no no is giving swing advise. Not even if the player asks. Oh, and please don't take my clubs and work on your swing.
But as to your question, the best experience I've ever had was at Royal Portrush. My caddy was named George and he and his buddy were out with our group. George was probably in his 70's and recently had to give up golf because of a bad back. He was a gentleman above all, understood the game and gently tried to get me to play the game. For a period of about 6 holes ending the front nine (I'm sure my friends would say it was more than that) I was awful. I began to wallow in self pity and finally turned to George and whined a bit, complaining about my game and how i get so frustrated at times. George turned and stated in that wonderful Irish brogue, "Laddie, I'd be happy to trade places with you." i paused for a moment and replied, "George, how right you are." From that moment on, I had a wonder time, playing much better while counting my blessings. I remember George every time I start to go the that dark place some of us golfers all to easily go. Thanks George. I hope you are still out there enjoying a pint with your mates.
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Sean,
Where in our exchange did I suggest YOU did not have a respect for caddies? In no way did I mean to imply that. As to the role of a caddie just being a job for youngsters, there are different levels of caddie experiences. The underlying constant should be that the caddie, young OR older, should have a decent command of what is required to do the job, hustle and bring a friendly manner to the day. In a destination or elite course setting, the QUALITY caddie can add a great deal to that experience.
Duncan,
Brian is speaking to the ADDITIONAL benefits the caddie contributes beyond providing the quality service 'round the course. Though you've obviously had little or no experience with QUALITY caddies, they are often some of the best company you could have on a course....or anywhere else for that matter. Remember, some of these "caddies" have become the greatest players of their era, or OH MY GOD NO...even become members of the clubs they once caddied at, after becoming successful in other professions. What, were they subhuman prior to attaining a higher social standing?
From my experience, the MELDING of age groups in the caddie program makes for the strongest staff. There is NO substitute for the awesome mentoring a caring, quality veteran caddie can impart to younger caddies while on-course, While a player can help shepherd a youngster carrying for him during a round, that... to me, says the caddie master hasn't adequately trained his staff.
NO CADDIE should be sent out on a golf course unprepared to at least do a competent job. Now for those that just want a bag carrier, well that's NOT a proper caddie. If you just want some kid out there with the training wheels on and are happy to have a cheap looper strolling around with you... GREAT!
I was very fortunate to find the game in caddie yards with ALL age groups present, and while I certainly saw my share of vice there...that's the REAL WORLD folks, not the coddled environment so many of our youth experience today. You learn how to interact and handle yourself among folks from every walk of life. With a solid commit from the facility, and quality mentorship of the caddie program, a superior staff and golf experience should be there at any facility that can financially support it.
Make no mistake, 95% of golf facilities WILL NOT be caddie golf oriented. That is fine. Given its TITANIC contributions throughout golf's long history, for the game, particularly the administrative bodies and those that profit from golf, to not properly "reinvest" in supporting the caddie dynamic wherever economically viable.. that is the issue...for the reasons I've stated previously.
Cheers,
Kris 8)
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I belong to a club with a mandatory and very good caddie program. It absolutely adds to the enjoyment of the game, speed of play and course conditioning.
When taking a caddie I'm unfamiliar with, I often ask them to "give me your opinion" on a specific putt or shot. After a few holes I tend to get a point of view on how experienced and engaged they are. I adjust my expectations accordingly.
On occasion I've hosted a guest who is not comfortable with a caddie. Mostly, they have never taken a caddie or have had a bad caddie experience. In the majority of cases, they comment on how enjoyable it was to play with a caddie at round's end.
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Getting back to Nick's original question, I caddied primarily at two different courses off and on through college.
The first was outside Chicago at The Glen Club in Glenview, IL. The Glen Club is a high end public Fazio course (all in green fees at the time from ~$175-$200) which also had ~100 "Corporate" Members. At the time, 2003-2007, there was obviously a lot of corporate golf played by guys with big expense accounts, and these types of players liked the luxury of caddies for their customers. Thanks to the economic times, I made anywhere from $120 - $200 for a variety of loops. I had a regular double bag loop that paid $120, I had two regular weekend loops which a foursome in carts that liked to gamble big, showed up 5 min before their time, and paid for two forecaddies to stand on either side of every fairway for $150. The rounds at The Glen were almost always slow, on average maybe 4.75 hours and many times 5+ hours, and because of timing and slow rounds it was rare to get more than one loop a day. However, the course operated with a "call ahead" system where if you either had a regular loop, or were requested, or a better caddie the caddiemaster would call you the night before and say "You're signed up for the 8:00am XYZ loop, get here by 7:00am" which was really nice because you didn't have to sometimes waste 6 hours just waiting for a loop like at many other clubs. Plus, you were allowed to play the golf course for free every day after the last tee time (around 2-3pm)...which was a great perk. 95% of the caddies at The Glen were College age and under with varying degrees of skill.
The second place I caddied was at The Country Club of Brookline, which was 4 miles down the road from my school in Boston. I was a student first when out at school, but I would usually loop Friday's, Saturday's, and Sunday's with the occasional Wednesday afternoon loop when the days were long enough. The only times caddies were mandatory was weekends before noon, but even during other times I would guess 60% of rounds were with a caddie. The pay wasn't as good as in Chicago, but loops were a flat rate of $100 as a honor caddie, but during tournaments we were given $150+. I rode my bike from my apartment to the Club at 5:30am to be one of the first caddies there to get priority, and I usually got out by 8:00 or 9:00am, but the time before my first loop was usually spent either reading the paper or doing homework...so it wasn't too bad. The membership really knew how to take caddies, and other than one glaring exception the members were really great people. Most of the other caddies were either in school of some sort (high school, college, grad school) but there were a fair amount of life long caddies there...some being really interesting characters, some a bit sketchy. The club also let caddies play on Monday (which I schedules my classes around Senior year, thank you very much :) ) and Thursday mornings on the Primrose if you wanted to, but if it was really slow around the club and the caddiemaster was in a good mood they would let you sneak over to the Primrose to play a few holes after saying "just be back by 9am for a loop." Overall that was a great experience, as I was able to pay for my living expenses in college by looping part-time (which according to one GCA member is apparently a despicable idea) all the while spending time on a world class golf course studying it's bumps and rolls.
While not the same hub of caddie activity as Chicago, the Twin Cities have a fair amount of clubs with caddie programs. One of the reasons I joined the club I did up here was that they have an active caddie program. There aren't any hard rules as to times when caddies are mandatory, but it's expected that you take one when they're available, especially on weekend mornings. I'm fine with that as to be honest, they aren't that expensive (~$25-30/bag for a "B" caddie, ~$40 for an "honor") which apparently keeps the caddie corps young. I can't imagine there are many, if at all, experienced loopers there, but I'm not as high maintenance as many other GCAers ;) and have no problem with supporting the surrounding neighborhood kids.
While caddie programs aren't as prevalent as they once were, they are still available in many places, and many people still like to take them. There are many positives to caddie programs, and I would encourage others to support them at their clubs, when they are guests at other people's clubs, and through the WGA's Evan's Scholars program.
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As I said in an earlier post what is the take when a compulsory caddie policy stops good people joining a club? It's not being tight when you may pay $8000 per year for a 35 week season to balk at paying $80-100 a round to play your own course, one you should know pretty well!
To me a caddie is like a taxi, a luxury item that's nice to use but I usually have another (free or cheaper) option.
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Thanks for all of the replies. For all of those that had good experiences can you give specific examples of what was good about it?
First trip to Pinehurst, early '90s. Upon arriving the first day, we're on our twilight round on #5 course and the caddy master (can't recall his name) playing as a single joins us for the last few holes. Tells my buddy and I that he'll get us a "good" caddy for our first trip around #2 tomorrow. Asks us if we will mind using their bags as his pick for our course guide is an older guy and couldn't schlep our bags. No problem.
Turns out the caddy is a 60+ year old black guy named Rush. He walks slowly, and we're wondering why this guy's so good. Second green I'm lining up my putt, and it sure looks to me as if it breaks a foot from left to right. Rush, from behind my buddy's ball and 90 degrees from where I'm putting, says "2 balls outta the right." Huh? I look at him with skepticism and hear, "man I don't needa be behind your ball, I been reading these greens for 43 years. 2 balls outta the right." It's impossible for me to hit this putt, which I see breaking a foot from left to right, outside the hole to the right. My brain just won't allow it. I hit the putt, with great speed, directly at the hole. . . and of course it breaks 2 balls from right to left. I look at Rush, we both laugh, and the remaining 16 holes he would simply tell us what to do, where to hit a chip, where to miss. . . one of the best days on a golf course ever.
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Sean,
Where in our exchange did I suggest YOU did not have a respect for caddies? In no way did I mean to imply that. As to the role of a caddie just being a job for youngsters, there are different levels of caddie experiences. The underlying constant should be that the caddie, young OR older, should have a decent command of what is required to do the job, hustle and bring a friendly manner to the day. In a destination or elite course setting, the QUALITY caddie can add a great deal to that experience.
Kris
I didn't say you suggested I didn't have a healthy respect for caddies - huh?
I don't disagree with anything you wrote. I am merely pointing out that caddies are a luxury beyond the luxury of golf itself. Caddies not being more popular is an economic issue. Its to the point where at many places, to retain caddies, clubs mandate that caddies will be taken. That is not a model anything close to most of the clubs/courses in the world are going to follow regardless of the benefits caddies bring to the game. I don't have any problem with caddies or club policy toward caddies except for at my club. Everyone can spend their money as they choose. I was only saying that to make the model work better in terms of more caddies being employed, than kids getting paid less money is a possible solution. I don't think there is any big future in terms of caddie growth for golfers to pay $80+ a loop. That isn't to say that it isn't great if folks can get paid that - more power to them, but I am not interested in contributing to those coffers.
Ciao
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Who can post something for me? I have a neat old article about caddies that I'd like to share, but don't have it posted anywhere on the internet?
Nobody? C'mon, guys, this is good stuff! Will somebody who knows how to get a document on the internet so it can then be posted here please send me their email, so I can send them the document?
Shiv,
You can email it to me at: kbjames_70@yahoo.com. I'll post it up.
Kalen
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OK, here is the article Shivas sent over....
I'm usually not the sentimental type, but this article makes a lot of very fine points!!
(http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q234/kbjames_70/Page_1.jpg)
(http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q234/kbjames_70/Page_2.jpg)
(http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q234/kbjames_70/Page_3.jpg)
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Unless the kid's carrying two bags. . in that case, screw him!
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Unless the kid's carrying two bags. . in that case, screw him!
And he better not ask for more than minimum wage!! Don't these kids know that it's an honor to caddie for me??
;) ;D
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Relax Stu, nobody was talking to you.
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Relax Stu, nobody was talking to you.
Pat,
Did you break into the lounge again?