Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Mark Saltzman on January 19, 2012, 08:29:23 PM
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Over the past year or so, I have played about a dozen Donald Ross golf courses. I noticed about half of them have long cross-bunkered par-3s.
Is this a Ross template? I don't have Brad's book with me and cannot recall if he talks about this.
Did Ross ever write about this type of par-3? What is the purpose of the cross-bunker? Do any other architects do this often?
Of the holes I have seen, the cross-bunkers were used quite differently, but in all cases, they were at least 15 yards short of the green.
Any info and any other examples?
Here are the ones I have noticed:
Aronimink's 14th:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Aronimink-14.jpg)
Biltmore's 8th
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Biltmore-8tee.jpg)
Carolina GC's 3rd
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/CarolinaGC-3.jpg)
CC of Buffalo's 8th - this one requires some imagination as a meddlesome greens committee has removed the cross-bunkering which was on top of the hill
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/CCofBuffalo-8.jpg)
Charlotte CC's 3rd
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/CharlotteCC-3.jpg)
Rosedale's 4th
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Rosedale-4tee.jpg)
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Mackenzie did this on the third hole of Pasatiempo. About 214 from the whites. It plays uphill, but I feel like the cross bunker is 50-70 yards short of the green. Great golf hole.
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The ridge on CCB's 8th always screamed to me for cross bunkers. Will they bring them back as part of the restoration?
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Mark,
In some cases, these were considered 'topped shot bunkers'. They were - again, in some cases - located to prevent topped shots from running onto the greens.
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The ridge on CCB's 8th always screamed to me for cross bunkers. Will they bring them back as part of the restoration?
The asst pro I played when I visited said that they are planning on restoring them, but that's all I know.
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More great pics Mark!
There has been some discussion on this type of bunker before regarding the purpose. One possible explanation is they served as a distance obstacle in the times when playing the ground game was more common or even the best option. Most of the holes you've shown look very open to a ground approach in front (with the possible exception of Carolina GC's 3rd which looks downhill to an elevated green??). In order to land it short and bounce it on, you would still have to navigate either around or over the bunker...
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The ridge on CCB's 8th always screamed to me for cross bunkers. Will they bring them back as part of the restoration?
The asst pro I played when I visited said that they are planning on restoring them, but that's all I know.
Bang biscuit. I'm very excited to see how that course looks after the restoration.
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The 7th at Canton Brookside and the 13th at Columbus CC both have similar cross bunkers. Unfortunately, I can't find pictures of either.
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The 7th at Canton Brookside and the 13th at Columbus CC both have similar cross bunkers. Unfortunately, I can't find pictures of either.
Here's 7 at the mighty Brookside. I wish I had a better photo
(http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/tt263/dfjb23/Brookside/IMG_0601.jpg)
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Here is a photo of the 13th at Columbus CC. The picture doesn't really do the hole justice. I think it's similar to the 7th at Canton Brookside.
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m77/buckichop/CCC/CCC13.jpg
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Mark, I don't recall seeing anything that ties cross bunkers specifically to Ross' par 3s. But they clearly fit his general statements on diagonal bunkers in "Golf Has Never Failed Me":
"Here is a good hazard that I feel to be a very fair one. It can be built for either a tee shot or a second shot, providing a carry of any desired length."
From what I have seen, Ross used cross bunkers regularly on holes of all lengths and pars, not just the par 3s. So I think cross bunkers were more a feature that matched his design philosophy generally than an indicator of a par 3 template. That being said, I agree that he used them frequently on par 3s. A few more exxamples...
#9 at Biltmore Forest
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2552/3985552981_010037a26a_b.jpg)
#9 at Mimosa Hills
(http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4094/4744710544_c34e5b7cf6_b.jpg)
#13 at Mimosa Hills
(http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4123/4744027935_a68551a583_b.jpg)
#14 at Mountain Ridge
(http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4135/4814109110_1a6f17a3b9_b.jpg)
#17 at Salisbury
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3342/3299360386_9406b77b51_b.jpg)
#3 at Sedgefield
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3442/3831773657_401e604e8c_b.jpg)
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Marco,
Did they tell you when the bunkers were removed by said meddling greens committee at cCBuffalo?
What about hole #6? Would you call those cross or greenfront bunkers?
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Mark,
Both Pine Ridge & Elmhurst, both designed by Ross here in Winnipeg feature(d) them. They are located on the longer one-shotters, and may also serve to challenge those who need two strokes to reach the green.
TK
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Schuylkill doesnt have any...
Mark
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I don't have a picture, but I believe Teugaga Cc's 3rd hole would qualify, but the cross bunkers are more than 15 yards from the green.
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visual deception...the rangefinder never sees that bunker :-\
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Mark, I agree with Ed Oden's comment that cross-bunkers are regularly used on Ross holes of all length and par. Two of my Ross favorites, French Lick and Holton Hills, have 3s, 4s and 5s with important cross-bunkers.
Here are two par 3 examples.
Mid-length #11 at Holston Hills (photo credit Bradley Anderson)
(http://i1227.photobucket.com/albums/ee427/BradAnderson007/11T.jpg)
The long #13 at French Lick
(http://home.comcast.net/~et1016/FL_13_from_12.jpg)
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Saltzman,
There aren't many chances to run it up here.
(http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/tt263/dfjb23/FLA%20MUNI/IMG_0113.jpg)
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The 16th at Rackham. These are probably untouched originals.
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16492815/Rackham%2016%20tee%20copy.JPG)
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16492815/Rackham%2016%20green%20copy.JPG)
16th hole is in the upper right quadrant of the original map. Playing at a whopping 225!
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16492815/Rackham%20map%20copy.JPG)
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There is no doubt that particular bunkering scheme was a common one used by Ross on his par-3s, but I'd be interested to know how many of those modern holes had the scheme originally and how many were added later by other architects, especially architects specializing in Ross restorations. Based on the prototypical look of most of those bunkers my guess is the majority of these courses have been 'restored' in the last decade.
Where is Salisbury?
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#9 at Biltmore Forest
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2552/3985552981_010037a26a_b.jpg)
Is that a Ross redan? Now that is atypical. I've never seen him design a redan green -- are there others?
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Mark,
In some cases, these were considered 'topped shot bunkers'. They were - again, in some cases - located to prevent topped shots from running onto the greens.
I play at a course that has a 220 yard Par 3 that used to have a cross bunker about 50 yards short of the green and for years I wondered why the architect - AV Macan - had put it there, it seemed to punish only the high handicap player and never the low handicap player. Macan, in his writings, was always insistent that his designs allowed the high handicap player to enjoy his day while still challenging the better player.
Then I played the course with hickories and period style golf balls and it all became clear. With the much reduced driving distances and the inability to spin the ball like we can with today's equipment, that bunker challenged the better player by insisting he drive over the bunker and run the ball onto the green, anything less and the ball mould find that bunker. But it was positioned so that the "dub" could play around it and try to make bogie. It was a design feature that matched the game as it was played 100 or so years ago.
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There is no doubt that particular bunkering scheme was a common one used by Ross on his par-3s, but I'd be interested to know how many of those modern holes had the scheme originally and how many were added later by other architects, especially architects specializing in Ross restorations. Based on the prototypical look of most of those bunkers my guess is the majority of these courses have been 'restored' in the last decade.
Where is Salisbury?
Tom,
The Country Club of Salisbury is in Salisbury, North Carolina, which is about 40 miles northeast of Charlotte. http://www.ccofsalisbury.com/viewCustomPage.aspx?id=1
Carolina Golf Club in Charlotte presents a good case in point about the "restoration" of cross bunkers. Mark's original post above shows par 3 number 3 (232 yds.) at Carolina. The cross bunker was restored in Kris Spence's 2008 restoration/renvovation. Immediately prior to Kris's work there were no bunkers on this hole. However, Ross's original 1929 drawing of the course shows a cross bunker in this location. The same is true on no. 9 at Carolina, also a long par 3 (237 yds.). Immediately prior to the renovation there was no cross bunker on this hole, but the Ross drawing showed across bunker and Kris put one in at that location durning his work. See Ed Oden's follow-up post below for photos of no. 9. For comparison of the Ross drawing and Spence's restoration plan, see Ed's initial post in his tread on Compliation of Routing Maps, Plans and Architectural Drawings (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43053.0.html), keeping in mind that no. 3 today was number 8 on the Ross plan, while no. 9 today was no. 5 on the Ross plan. So, in the Carolina GC situation the cross bunkers were not there on 3 and 9 prior to the Spence restoration/renovation, but were added by Spence to reflect what was shown on the original Ross plan. My understanding, second (plus) hand, is that many of the original Ross bunkers on the course were eliminated durning WWII as a maintenance cost-saving measure.
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Mark,
Brad Klein can advise authoritatively on this but I think this bunker was very much a regular Ross feature on his longer (200+ yard) par 3s, which Ross included on flatter parts of the property on many course designs. Another example appears at Wilmington NC Municipal GC, restored by Ron Prichard.
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Mark,
The answer to your question may lie in Ross's introduction of 'top shot' bunkers on par 4's and par 5's.
A cross bunkered par 3 may be the design feature meant to function as a top shot bunker.
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There is no doubt that particular bunkering scheme was a common one used by Ross on his par-3s, but I'd be interested to know how many of those modern holes had the scheme originally and how many were added later by other architects, especially architects specializing in Ross restorations. Based on the prototypical look of most of those bunkers my guess is the majority of these courses have been 'restored' in the last decade.
Where is Salisbury?
Tom,
The Country Club of Salisbury is in Salisbury, North Carolina, which is about 40 miles northeast of Charlotte. http://www.ccofsalisbury.com/viewCustomPage.aspx?id=1
Carolina Golf Club in Charlotte presents a good case in point about the "restoration" of cross bunkers. Mark's original post above shows par 3 number 3 (232 yds.) at Carolina. The cross bunker was restored in Kris Spence's 2008 restoration/renvovation. Immediately prior to Kris's work there were no bunkers on this hole. However, Ross's original 1929 drawing of the course shows a cross bunker in this location. The same is true on no. 9 at Carolina, also a long par 3 (237 yds.). Immediately prior to the renovation there was no cross bunker on this hole, but the Ross drawing showed a cross bunker and Kris put one in at that location durning his work. Possibly Ed Oden could post a photo of that hole as well. The best I can do is refer you to Ed's photo tour of the entire course. http://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/sets/72157608575550343/show/
For comparison of the Ross drawing and Spence's restoration plan, see Ed's initial post in his tread on Compliation of Routing Maps, Plans and Architectural Drawings (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43053.0.html), keeping in mind that no. 3 today was number 8 on the Ross plan, while no. 9 today was no. 5 on the Ross plan. So, in the Carolina GC situation the cross bunkers were not there on 3 and 9 prior to the Spence restoration/renovation, but were added by Spence to reflect what was shown on the original Ross plan. My understanding, second (plus) hand, is that many of the original Ross bunkers on the course were eliminated durning WWII as a maintenance cost-saving measure.
Tom:
Adding to Carl's post, at Carolina the cross bunkers on the 3rd and 9th holes had been lost over the years, probably more from an expense standpoint than anything else. But they were in Ross' original drawings and Kris Spence restored them as part of his work several years ago. Here are pictures of the restored 9th at Carolina:
From the tee it appears virtually like a greenside hazard...
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5108/5642382066_a6563dce56_b.jpg)
But from this angle you can see that it is really quite a bit short of the green...
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3050/3012304633_4c2e1caa74_b.jpg)
And from behind the green, you can again see that the bunker is well short...
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5267/5641812689_95c357d312_b.jpg)
As for some of the other holes noted in this thread, I know that the short cross bunkers on the 3rd hole at Charlotte and the 9th hole at Biltmore Forest were similarly on Ross' original plans, lost over time and reinstated as part of recent restorations. The short right bunker at Mountain Ridge #14 is on Ross' 1929 plan which Pat Mucci provided for the map thread. I don't know the story with Mimosa Hills #9 and #13 or Sedgefield #3. But it is my understanding that Kris Spence had Ross' drawings for both of those courses and use them as the basis for his work. So I am pretty sure these examples were Ross originals as well. As for #17 at Salisbury, I have no idea whether it is original or not. But they do have Ross' drawings in their clubhouse. I'll try to take a look at them the next time I am there. In any event, I think it is pretty clear that the majority of these par 3 cross bunkers were originally conceived by Ross rather than an intermediary architect, even though their current iteration may be a product of a restorationist's work.
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Is that a Ross redan? Now that is atypical. I've never seen him design a redan green -- are there others?
Mark, Brad Klein has suggested that the 9th at Biltmore Forest is the only redan Ross ever designed... http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,23252.msg425539.html#msg425539
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Couple more from Ran's photos of French Lick:
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Ross.jpg)
(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo271/freem109/Ross2.jpg)
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DR designed a X bunker on the par 3 5th at Athens CC. It was taken out in the '50's when the wife of the Green Chair complained that it was "unfair". It has not been restored.
DR also had X bunkers on three par 4's at ACC, only one of which still exists. If we are counting his top-shot bunkers, which were also X bunkers, none of the three sets he designed existed until a recent Forse restoration. Ron restored one of them.
I would guess that many more of DR's X bunkers have been removed than new ones created.
Bob
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Are (or were) there any examples at Pinehurst?
Possibly #18 on No. 1?
Course map from scorecard: http://www.pinehurst.com/pdf/PinehurstNo1Scorecard.pdf (http://www.pinehurst.com/pdf/PinehurstNo1Scorecard.pdf)
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How about all those tee's next to one another in Ed Odens photograph from Sedgefield!
Clearly a result of the slope handicapping system?
And doesn't that kinda defeat the purpose of the cross bunkers?
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Some others....
#14 at Mill Creek Park North in Boardman, OH
# 7 at Mill Creek Park South in Boardman, OH
#11 at Wilmington Municipal in Wilmington, NC
#13 & #16 at Pine Needles in Southern Pines, NC
#3 at Springfield CC in Springfield, OH
#6 & #9 at Westbrook CC in Mansfield, OH
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I am a bit bothered by the description of these strategic bunkers as cross bunkers. Ross did describe how much of his bunkering was designed to yield challenges to the various skill levels of golfers.
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Ed
Thanks for the pix of Carolina's 9th. I tend to think this sort of deception bunkering works bets when the hole plays a bit uphill. The downhill version maybe prettier, but the effect is better uphill.
Ciao
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This is the par 3 6th at Jefferson Lakeside CC in Richmond Va, the restoration project removed an added center approach bunker and restored the 5 bunkers in the photo based on bunker remnants from the original course. The hole is 155 to 165 yards and the cross bunkers are positioned 20 and 25 yards short of the front edge.
(http://www.pbase.com/kspdesign/image/141106575/medium.jpg)
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It's a wonder that these have survived the many Greens Chairmen, Supers and women who can't get it airborne. I wonder what will happen to all these "restored" bunkers when budgets get tight again. Will the past repeat itself?
Especially since bunkers seem to be the favorite whipping boy.
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Hole 6 at Plainfield Country Club with commentary by restoring architect Gil Hanse:
As a shortish par 3, this is a neat hole and it was another litmus test for our renovation. There had been two little bunkers that weren't really in play and had been removed. But Ross had put them to serve as a visual trick to add a little doubt and confusion for the players. That the club let us restore them said a lot about their commitment to what we were trying to do, so they deserve a lot of credit.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Plainfield%20CC/Plainfield-6tee.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Plainfield%20CC/P1140005.jpg)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Plainfield%20CC/P1140005b.jpg)
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Another example would be the original ninth hole at Shaker Heights Country Club just outside of Cleveland. It had two cross bunkers AND a creek that ran along the entire left side of the hole. The cross bunkers as well as a most of the creek that ran down the left side of the hole near the green were gone by 1952 according to an image from HistoricAerials.com.
Actually, many of the interesting bunkers that were part of the original Shaker Heights course are gone and have been replaced by trees. As nice as Shaker Heights is today, the entire golf course looked much more interesting in its original form.
Below are a few images from the earlier version of the hole, compliments of Shaker Heights member Alan Fuente, as well as a current image from Google Earth.
(http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj36/no6pro/SHCC%20Hole%20Number%209%20pre%201954/SHCC9wCB01.jpg)
(http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj36/no6pro/SHCC%20Hole%20Number%209%20pre%201954/SHCC9wCB02.jpg)
(http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj36/no6pro/SHCC%20Hole%20Number%209%20pre%201954/SHCC9wCB03.jpg)
(http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj36/no6pro/SHCC%20Hole%20Number%209%20pre%201954/SHCC9wOCBcurrent.jpg)
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;D ;) 8)
Some of our Philly / Jersey guys will recognize a twin to the French Lick pictures at Riverton CC in south jersey. It is a shortish par 3 of only about 140 yards from the tips....I'll see if Joe Bausch has a photo ...Riverton is a Donald Ross ...
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Over the past year or so, I have played about a dozen Donald Ross golf courses. I noticed about half of them have long cross-bunkered par-3s.
Is this a Ross template? I don't have Brad's book with me and cannot recall if he talks about this.
Did Ross ever write about this type of par-3? What is the purpose of the cross-bunker? Do any other architects do this often?
Of the holes I have seen, the cross-bunkers were used quite differently, but in all cases, they were at least 15 yards short of the green.
Any info and any other examples?
A couple of the par 3's at Beverly fit this bill too. Particularly the long 3rd. Questionably the 6th too although it is pretty short and plays downhill.
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VCC ..
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(http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/4481/picture1xo.jpg)
(http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/2133/pic2bqb.jpg)
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Dean D.~That's a crying shame.
Chris H.~Where is VCC? Or, from where are your photos?
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Vesper Country Club just north and west of Boston. This is the seventeenth, an uphill par 3 that's 210 yds from the back tee. The pictures are taken from the hole's forward tee about halfway through the restoration we completed there in the Fall of 2009. The cross bunker on the right is a good 35 yards from the center of the green. Also all the trees you see behind the green as well as all of the trees to the right of the green and all of the trees to the left of the green minus a couple specimen oaks have since been removed. This leaves the golfer, from the back tees, with a great view of the rolling topography of the eighteenth fairway.
Definitely worthy of its new-found top 100 ranking.
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The original 3rd hole at Granville Golf Course was about 230 from the back tee and had a cross bunker some fifty yards short of green all at the same level