Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: John Kavanaugh on January 18, 2012, 11:43:50 AM
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of all time. After playing the Dismal Doak last year in routing only, just tee locations to pins, I personally am convinced it may be the finest routing of 18 holes in the history of the game. Even Doak called it a genius routing. What is its competition and when can we officially set the crown upon her head? We are talking routing only here.
note: I'm not a big fan of Doak greens so am reluctant to call it the finest course until I see the finished product.
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John, as the most naive of novices around here, what makes it stand out THAT much?
I can tell a good routing from a bad routing, maybe I can tell a great from a good (I know what I like).
But I'm frankly not sure what would ever make me declare "This is the greatest routing ever." Or this was the optimal routing possible on this parcel of land.
So could you or someone else describe the through process that goes into making such declarations. Thanks for the info and let me know where to send my tuition check.
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How much does it cost to join Dismal?
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What's a routing?
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How much does it cost to join Dismal?
Less than a pork chop a day.
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Some routing somewhere has to be the best of all time. I see no reason to believe that whatever routing that may be, even if it is Dismal, can not be beaten some day.
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It's heartwarming to witness such restraint! Your early endorsement reminds me of the flames of passion induced by the opening of Old Macdonald. I tried to help fan those flames, but only after I played the course a month or so after its "full" opening. That's a pretty solid routing as well, my friend. So is Pacific Dunes, which, to me, seems like the most fun, playful and inventive routing on the property. I'm no expert on anything in terms of course architecture, but I have tried to pay some attention to routing and the decisions that the architect must have been struggling with when a course was laid out. Here in Chicago, I've always admired the routing of Olympia Fields North for several reasons. First of all, it was the fourth course built on the property, leading one to conclude that the other land must have been more ideal for golf. (The same can be said for Medinah, whose championship is the third of three.) Routing wise, Willie Park, Jr. had to deal with several different sorts of terrain. First, there was a chunk of land that looks like it was farmland. Next, there are several holes carved out of native stands of oak and hickory. Finally, there is a stretch of holes with somewhat dramatic (for Chicago, anyway) elevation changes and a serpentine creek. The one crucial link, it seems to me, is a relatively benign shortish par three that connects the player to the final five holes which are plenty good and which feature the elevation changes and the creek. Without this bridge hole, I think the course might have seemed like a Tale of Two Nines, which one sees at certain golf courses.
As for DR, I'll give you my opinion on the routing of the soon-to-be Doakie next summer.
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I think this thread is fairly useless without at the very least a routing map posted for all here to have a look. Without it, it's just more fodder. It would be fun to hear a recount of the process, particularly, as I understand it, when Tom told Chris that he's going across the road! Much of this may be on the genius routing thread, I don't remember exactly.
My opinion is biased, but it is a wonderfully routed golf course and I cannot wait to play it.
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when 5 years from now John consistently plays the Doak course 7-3 over the Nicklaus... 8) Seriously how long does it take for the new course buzz to wear off? 5-10 years?
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Interesting post/thread, John, and I'm happy for you that you had the foresight and financial wherewithal to become a member at a club that might offer the best routing of all time.
To answer your question: I think that IF the elements and qualities that comprise/characterize a great routing can be enumerated and agreed upon, then there is NO incubation period at all; none is necessary.
You -- in speaking personally -- must believe that you CAN in fact enumerate all the elements that make for a great routing, and so you should feel free not to wait for even one more SECOND to proclaim that truth to the world!
Peter
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Terry,
I like the routing of Pacific Dunes but believe it starts on the wrong hole. I would prefer it to start on seven or eight or perhaps finish on the ocean. Under its current configuration I don't see the number of par threes on the back lending itself to interesting gambling.
I did think the routing of Olympia Fields North was genius. Really love the ability to use member tees on one hole as championship tees on another.
I'm not going to accept that a number of routings are perfect so there is a tie for best. Use of a natural land/water form would be a tie breaker. Dismal has both the river and the horse shoes.
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when 5 years from now John consistently plays the Doak course 7-3 over the Nicklaus... 8) Seriously how long does it take for the new course buzz to wear off? 5-10 years?
Jud,
No matter how much more critically acclaimed the Doak course is over the Nicklaus I will probably always play the Nicklaus more often. The Nicklaus greens fit my shot shapes like they were built with my DNA.
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Is the routing on the new Dismal course any better than the routing at a constrained site like, for example, Lost Dunes?
To be the best routing, are we discussing a combination of ideal land and ideal use? Or, are we discussing the architect's best work given the opportunities presented?
The best routings may not be on the best courses. Its a lot more interesting to me to try to examine how an architect was able to create a playable course on a piece of property that, like Sand Hills, did not immediately offer up 180 different holes.
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I think this thread is fairly useless without at the very least a routing map posted for all here to have a look. Without it, it's just more fodder. It would be fun to hear a recount of the process, particularly, as I understand it, when Tom told Chris that he's going across the road! Much of this may be on the genius routing thread, I don't remember exactly.
My opinion is biased, but it is a wonderfully routed golf course and I cannot wait to play it.
I don't think a routing map does one any good unless it would be three dimensional in real size. The routing needs to be viewed from around the 13th green or so. Even though we were out there alone we could feel the ghosts of golfers past who had walked those very grounds.
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Is the routing on the new Dismal course any better than the routing at a constrained site like, for example, Lost Dunes?
To be the best routing, are we discussing a combination of ideal land and ideal use? Or, are we discussing the architect's best work given the opportunities presented?
The best routings may not be on the best courses. Its a lot more interesting to me to try to examine how an architect was able to create a playable course on a piece of property that, like Sand Hills, did not immediately offer up 180 different holes.
Come on, the routing of Lost Dunes requires back tracks. It is no better than Tobacco Road. Puke.
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John,
I've spent a lot of time staring at the DR2 routing topo, and I think you are probably in the right ballpark. I think of routing in terms of making best use of the best features of the property, and from what I've seen, Tom has made use of natural greensites and extremely good use of natural teeing grounds, with lots of design variety and a dramatic finish to boot. I hope to see the finished product someday.
Jim
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Sven,
The best routing of all time also has to be on a perfect site for golf. We are not talking miss congeniality here. I would think courses like The Old Course, Fishers Island, Pebble and Torrey Pines South would be in contention.
Yes Torrey Pines South, how else can you explain that history of exciting finishes no matter who is in contention. Even Mike Davis couldn't screw it up with his heavy handed back room architectural hocus pocus.
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Best routing in the world is a very relative term.
If you turn a difficult site into a great course without much dirt movement, do you deserve it more than if you take a great site to start with and a big property ?
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Is the routing on the new Dismal course any better than the routing at a constrained site like, for example, Lost Dunes?
To be the best routing, are we discussing a combination of ideal land and ideal use? Or, are we discussing the architect's best work given the opportunities presented?
The best routings may not be on the best courses. Its a lot more interesting to me to try to examine how an architect was able to create a playable course on a piece of property that, like Sand Hills, did not immediately offer up 180 different holes.
Come on, the routing of Lost Dunes requires back tracks. It is no better than Tobacco Road. Puke.
Are the back tracks a result of poor design or a necessary evil to make the course work on a site that has a highway running through it and multiple wetland areas that couldn't be touched. Property corners are often noted as the most difficult parts of a property to work with, there are probably no less than 20 exterior and interior "corners" that had to be dealt with at Lost Dunes.
From your response, it appears that for your definition of "routing" you're putting an emphasis on flow (the components of flow are another debate). I'd venture its a lot easier to avoid backtracks and long hole to tee traverses when the land you're working with is open and unconstrained.
It seems that there's a difference between "routing" as a result and "routing" as a process. My question is should the qualitative analysis of routing take into account the amount of work (read mental exercise, not physical labor) necessary to link 18 holes together?
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Best routing in the world is a very relative term.
If you turn a difficult site into a great course without much dirt movement, do you deserve it more than if you take a great site to start with and a big property ?
Phillip and Sven,
The finest routing in the world is simply the finest routing in the world. It is not who put the best lipstick on a pig contest. That is another question.
This is more like a track meet than a horse race. It is not handicapped.
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I like the routing of Pacific Dunes but believe it starts on the wrong hole. I would prefer it to start on seven or eight or perhaps finish on the ocean. Under its current configuration I don't see the number of par threes on the back lending itself to interesting gambling.
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Sounds like you have been reading too much Ron Whitten. What ocean side hole are you going to destroy to accomplish your clubhouse and finish on the ocean? Where are you going to route the road through the course to get the clubhouse on the ocean?
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Can you evaluate the routing before the course is finished? What happens when that 16th hole par 5 that you think is going to be a great match play hole -- because it looks like a true risk-reward hole and should often come at a critical time in the match -- is actually pretty boring because the green is designed in a way that it doesn't encourage risky plays? Etc, etc. . . .
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To answer your question, I think the minimum incubation period before a routing can be declared the finest of all-time is for the course to open for play.
I would nominate Crystal Downs, Prairie Dunes, & Cypress Point as great routings.
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As someone who claims to be the finest mind in golf, I thought you might put a bit more emphasis on the mental process that goes into the routing process.
If we're taking the concept of "routing as work product" out of the equation, can you start by being a bit more specific about what you think makes a great routing? From what I can gather from this thread, here are the criteria you've identified so far:
1. No back tracks;
2. Finishing at the most dramatic part of the property;
3. Offering good gambling opportunities on the back nine; and
4. It doesn't make you puke.
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I like the routing of Pacific Dunes but believe it starts on the wrong hole. I would prefer it to start on seven or eight or perhaps finish on the ocean. Under its current configuration I don't see the number of par threes on the back lending itself to interesting gambling.
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Sounds like you have been reading too much Ron Whitten. What ocean side hole are you going to destroy to accomplish your clubhouse and finish on the ocean? Where are you going to route the road through the course to get the clubhouse on the ocean?
Garland,
I've been through this before a million times far before Whitten. You simply turn the par three 10th and 11th into a world class par four finishing hole and reverse 4 into the finest starter in the game. There is plenty of room for a cliff side clubhouse between the current 11th green and new first tee. Think Frank Lloyd Wright's Falling Water perched on the cliff. A road coming in along the back crossing the new 18th fairway ties it all in. We all know you gotta cross a road to win this contest.
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Best routing ever before it even opens for play. Didn't Tom have a "lets not jump the gun" post on this course several months ago.
Listen, I am excited to see the course in June and am sure it will be a great addition to Dismal and US golf courses in general. My guess is that it will immediately vault into the top tier of many rankings. But best routing ever? I would imagine that Old Tom Morris, HS Colt, CB Macdonald and Alister Mackenzie are rolling over in their graves at being dismissed before the course opens.
It would be interesting to compare (after its opening) the routing at Doak Dismal versus Ballyneal given the similar areas. My guess is that one is not definitively better than the other, just different and up to each golfer's tastes.
What I think will make Dismal really special is having 2 great courses on one property like that. Are both courses fescue? If so, will it be the only private club with 36 fescue holes in the US?
Man winter stinks - can it get to golf season asap.
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Saying something is the best implies at least some sort of objective criteria. I can't see where that's possible with respect to golf courses, routing or greens or anything else. There is too much personal preference. Unless you are saying it's the best for you, which it does not seem you are saying.
The incubation time would likely vary from person to person as well. Some might not feel comfortable making such an assertion until they've played all of the contenders multiple times. But if one is accepting the premise that it is possible to determine the best, I don't see where any significant incubation would be required.
What makes the routing genius? The flow? Using landforms most would have ignored? Just curious...
Jim C, any chance you can post the routing you've been studying?
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Some prefer blondes, others brunettes...
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And in five years when the cliff erodes the clubhouse can serve as the cabana house for the new beach club.
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Michael,
Both courses have bent grass greens thank God.
Sven,
You can not write a formula for the greatest of all time. I never saw it by the map. I felt it somewhere around the 13th green. Not even sure where.
Something that has changed for me over the years is that I do believe you need interactions with other golfers on the course. I even like to turbo that up with interaction with those coming and going by crossing a road. The feeling as you look in the car and see them looking back is priceless. Of course this is limited only to private roads as I still do not find humor in the hillbilly drive by "Four!" or honk.
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Just in case anyone out there has not yet figured out that, as usual, Barney is just trying to be provocative . . .
Yes Torrey Pines South, how else can you explain that history of exciting finishes no matter who is in contention. Even Mike Davis couldn't screw it up with his heavy handed back room architectural hocus pocus.
This is Tim Tebow analysis applied to gca, but I am not so sure that "exciting finishes" are the best benchmark for quarterbacks or golf courses.
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of all time. After playing the Dismal Doak last year in routing only, just tee locations to pins, I personally am convinced it may be the finest routing of 18 holes in the history of the game. Even Doak called it a genius routing. What is its competition and when can we officially set the crown upon her head? We are talking routing only here.
note: I'm not a big fan of Doak greens so am reluctant to call it the finest course until I see the finished product.
John,
Can you explain why you think it is such a great routing? Also, I'm curious about the routing being genius; can you explain why? Are there some unexpected or surprising changes of direction or incredibly imaginative uses of the terrain?
I've only seen a few photos, so I'm interested to know what makes it head and shoulders better than all other routings in the "history of the game".
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John,
You would have to do more than change 10 and 11 and 4. By doing that, you leave dead end in the routing (after the current #3, and #12) and you've also only got 17 holes.
I propose leave PD exactly how it is, but just add a new resturant/hang out spot on the dune between the 6th hole at Bandon Dunes and the 10th tee at PD. Here is an aerial of it. Build a road where people can take a shuttle in and it'd be perfect.
Who wouldn't want to hang out here after a round and watch the sunset....
(http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q234/kbjames_70/golf/PD_Clubhouse.png)
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I don't think a routing map does one any good unless it would be three dimensional in real size.
What was I thinking? No one on this site has ever attempted to critique a routing from a 2D map.
Also, wasn't it at 13 green when we realized that the club would do well to employ a fleet of electric carts with solar panels?
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of all time. After playing the Dismal Doak last year in routing only, just tee locations to pins, I personally am convinced it may be the finest routing of 18 holes in the history of the game. Even Doak called it a genius routing. What is its competition and when can we officially set the crown upon her head? We are talking routing only here.
note: I'm not a big fan of Doak greens so am reluctant to call it the finest course until I see the finished product.
John,
Can you explain why you think it is such a great routing? Also, I'm curious about the routing being genius; can you explain why? Are there some unexpected or surprising changes of direction or incredibly imaginative uses of the terrain?
I've only seen a few photos, so I'm interested to know what makes it head and shoulders better than all other routings in the "history of the game".
I have attempted to explain why I love my wife but gave up long ago trying to explain why she loves me. Some things just need to be declared.
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I don't think a routing map does one any good unless it would be three dimensional in real size.
What was I thinking? No one on this site has ever attempted to critique a routing from a 2D map.
Also, wasn't it at 13 green when we realized that the club would do well to employ a fleet of electric carts with solar panels?
Exactly, the intimacy may turn many golfers off. How that is done in this litigious society lies the true genius.
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To answer your question, I think the minimum incubation period before a routing can be declared the finest of all-time is for the course to open for play.
I would nominate Crystal Downs, Prairie Dunes, & Cypress Point as great routings.
Open for play is a fair standard. Let's not forget The Riviera. I still can't get over the 18th.
Hard to keep up with such a fast moving thread. I apologize for any comments to which I did not reply.
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See "Our Next Big Thing" thread for pictures of the Doak course and Tom's comments on the routing. Good stuff.
By the way, Chris - have you come up with a name. I liked your idea of the "Lariot" for the Doak course and "Spur" for the Nicklaus course with the symbols incorporated.
If you have not come up with a name by June, I do some of my most creative thinking after drinking a bottle of Knob Creek in front of an awesome fire pit ::)
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Can you evaluate the routing before the course is finished? What happens when that 16th hole par 5 that you think is going to be a great match play hole -- because it looks like a true risk-reward hole and should often come at a critical time in the match -- is actually pretty boring because the green is designed in a way that it doesn't encourage risky plays? Etc, etc. . . .
Then I would be wrong. I have played many courses over my 40+ years of golfing and I don't recall a single course that has remained stagnate anymore than me. Every course changes over time and as such the greatest routing of all time may change from day to day.
My biggest concern is being able to reach the first par three with a driver. I might need just the right wind.
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To answer your question, I think the minimum incubation period before a routing can be declared the finest of all-time is for the course to open for play.
I would nominate Crystal Downs, Prairie Dunes, & Cypress Point as great routings.
Open for play is a fair standard. Let's not forget The Riviera. I still can't get over the 18th.
You're right and I meant to write Riviera as my first choice for best routing but didn't for some reason. I don't think anyone could take Riviera's property and draw a better sequence of holes.
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I like the routing of Pacific Dunes but believe it starts on the wrong hole. I would prefer it to start on seven or eight or perhaps finish on the ocean. Under its current configuration I don't see the number of par threes on the back lending itself to interesting gambling.
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Sounds like you have been reading too much Ron Whitten. What ocean side hole are you going to destroy to accomplish your clubhouse and finish on the ocean? Where are you going to route the road through the course to get the clubhouse on the ocean?
Garland,
I've been through this before a million times far before Whitten. You simply turn the par three 10th and 11th into a world class par four finishing hole and reverse 4 into the finest starter in the game. There is plenty of room for a cliff side clubhouse between the current 11th green and new first tee. Think Frank Lloyd Wright's Falling Water perched on the cliff. A road coming in along the back crossing the new 18th fairway ties it all in. We all know you gotta cross a road to win this contest.
It's hard to take you seriously when you come up with such simplistic answers as if they were a forgone conclusion.
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Until Doak's next latest greatest is discovered (revealed) to this site?
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I think the only criteria is that you would need to play every course in the entire world before you can say that the new course at Dismal has the world's greatest routing.
But, regardless, I think it can be said with conviction that the routing at the new course is world-class!!!
8)
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Haven't seen it so i can't comment. There are a lot of ways to rate routings including consideration of the site. I agree re Riviera and Olympia Fields North. Muirfield is often cited and deservedly so. Pacific Dunes is a great modern. I am partial to Friar's Head. The movement between the dune land and the potato fields is extraordinary even if a similar device to come down is used on both nines. That course could easily have been a dunes nine and a flat nine, leaving an even greater contrast than the nines at Portstewart but instead we have something very special.
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I must confess that I'm not a big fan of a giddy Barney.
The best routing in the world? Just give Donald J. Ross 120 acres, a topo map and a couple of days. No constellation necessary.
Bogey
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I must confess that I'm not a big fan of a giddy Barney.
Ahh, Bogey - You should see him in this state. His sunburned face beaming with joy makes all the sweet gals at Dismal blush. It's really quite nice to see everyone so happy.
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Best routing? Well, given that Muirfield is often cited for its brilliant routing and that Doak gave it a 10... It would be interesting Doak would do some sort of comparative anaysis of Muirfield and Dismal Doak.
Ciao
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I don't know if there is such a thing as the finest routing in the world. A routing [or a golf course] can really only be declared the best for that given site -- and even then, it will never be anywhere close to unanimous. The one I've always cited as being impossible to beat is Merion (East) ... there just doesn't seem to be any other way to put that puzzle together, but that's because the property lines were tailored to fit around it over time.
I think my routing for Dismal River is really good. If there's really genius in it, it's because I did some things that most people would not have thought of doing. Most people wouldn't decide to start and finish in different spots, for one thing. And, apparently none of the other architects who visited Dismal River [which, as far as I know, only includes Jack Nicklaus, Tom Watson, and Tiger Woods] ever thought about going across the road to the north and down by the river. [Wait, maybe Watson did have a couple of holes across the road ... I only heard anecdotes and saw some stakes out on site, I have never seen a routing map from anyone else.]
I will say I can't wait to get back to building it. It won't matter if it's a great routing or not unless we build a great course with it. That's the goal.
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John Kavanaugh,
After playing the Dismal Doak last year in routing only, just tee locations to pins, I personally am convinced it may be the finest routing of 18 holes in the history of the game.
In all of the world, eh?
Could you please list for us the courses you've played in England, Ireland, Scotland and Australia?
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John Kavanaugh,
After playing the Dismal Doak last year in routing only, just tee locations to pins, I personally am convinced it may be the finest routing of 18 holes in the history of the game.
In all of the world, eh?
Could you please list for us the courses you've played in England, Ireland, Scotland and Australia?
Scott,
Given that there are slightly over 30,000 courses worldwide I have not played an equal amount in both my home country and those you mentioned. I believe that makes me equally qualified to discuss each.
You must be as proud as I am that Chris showed no interest in discussing this fun parabellum.
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John,
This thread just seems to further prove why speaking in absolutes and superlatives about golf courses is foolish. Too much of it is subjective and the sample size is too large for most people, perhaps for anyone, to authoritatively or convincingly say "X is the best example of Y in the world".
A thread discussing why Dismal Doak is a wonderful routing would be just as fine a way -- better, probably -- for you to make the point that you think it is a great routing.
Though I do note that your OP had no examples of what about the routing makes you laud it so highly. Could you please talk us through the features of the routing that lead you to believe it is among the very best in the world?
Perhaps if you provide some substance, this thread might amount to something substantial.
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Here's something kind funny...I'd be flattered if Tom's course was the finest in Hooker County, Nebraska. Think about it....and the population is less than 1,000! Add in Prairie, Ballyneal, and Sutton Bay, etc. the region has some truly great places. Golf is better for them all.
Since I'm not much into the subjective, I'll be happy with with the finest job Tom and team can do on an incredibly unique site. I think it will be both quite good, very special, and tons of fun. Stuff unseen out this way and rarely anywhere. I only care about if our members, and those they may share it with, like it. They are the people we serve and, if it is special and important to them, that meets the goal. Anything else is outside that which we are all about.
Tom - I agree with you 100%. To my knowledge, nobody was as "insistent and persistent" about crossing the road - that was a special few days! I love to share the story (probably embellished) and hope it will become part of Dismal legend. These eyes have not seen a better or more interesting routing.
C. Squier - IM me if you would like that answer, and you will probably be suprised by the "value". I get enough flak here already.
Michael - no real progress on what to call them - haven't spent much time. I like "Flying Spur" for the Doak - part of my ancient family crest, but we may well not name either course. Dismal River just fine to me.
John - I enjoy the wide variety of opinion and experiences here, and will always offer my own if I feel it contributes. I have a very thick skin and am quite comfortable in it. Be prepared to be dissected!
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I agree the "crossing the road" aspect of the routing is quite something.
You start with normal sand hills golf (which as we all know if quite amazing) and then shift into something out of this world. It seems the close you get to the river, the deeper you get below the massive dune, and the more magical the place feels.
And all that is with the land being transformed into a golf course. Man, imagine when it is done!! :D
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Dismal Doak is indeed a great routing.
When I started the "genius routing" thread a year ago I was trying to define what I considered a great routing. It's always about great golf, but also a routing that takes advantage of all the site has to offer to keep construction and maintenance inputs to a minimum while still providing a great course.
If I were to start that same thread today, I'd use DD as the best modern day example I know. I'm going to leave it at that for now (sorry Scott, feel free to go into investigative journalist mode), but can't wait to go into more detail once we've transitioned from creation to the testing phase.
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The most striking part about DR #2 was that everything was already there. One of the guys would show me the tee box (which was more or less already a tee box in the case of at least 14 of the holes!) and they didn't even have to point. The golf holes were obvious once you were standing on them. When you weren't standing on one, it just all blended together. How anyone can make sense of all that "noise" when you're in those dunes is insane. I don't care if the land is perfect. Someone still has to see golf holes coherently. Not easy.
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Don,
If I were to start that same thread today, I'd use DD as the best modern day example I know. I'm going to leave it at that for now (sorry Scott, feel free to go into investigative journalist mode)
This is a disappointing cheap shot, entirely misrepresenting my (now unfortunately deleted) posts.
Those same posts celebrated how enlightening it had been to hear from Chris J when he first arrived here about how he and his team had calibrated the inputs on Dismal River to achieve preferred firm conditions as well as rebuilding several greens to improve the course. I am sure a similarly insightful discussion of the routing of this golf course would be appreciated by all GCA.com readers.
If you read the top post on this page I invited John Kavanaugh to start that constructive, educational conversation with his insights into what makes Dismal Doak a great routing. Mac does that somewhat in post #52 with mention of the river and dune, Ben Sims does even moreso and I hope you might move on from cheap and inaccurate shots and maybe contribute likewise.
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I agree the "crossing the road" aspect of the routing is quite something.
You start with normal sand hills golf (which as we all know if quite amazing) and then shift into something out of this world. It seems the close you get to the river, the deeper you get below the massive dune, and the more magical the place feels.
And all that is with the land being transformed into a golf course. Man, imagine when it is done!! :D
Mac,
Up at the far corner of the course (the 5th hole and 6th tee) I think utilizes some of the best natural landforms of the routing apart from the big tumbling ground across the road. Honestly, the view when standing on 6 tee and looking back across over at 5 tee looks very much like what you'd find on a big dunesy seaside links and should appear even more so when the course is grassed and mowed out. It boggles the mind how a teeing area like at the 5th, so large and relatively flat was just lying there all this time amongst the sand hills formations. Driver par 3's are fairly rare so I think it'll be a lot of fun standing on 6 and watching the group behind play their tee shots! I wish I had a decent picture of what I'm talking about.
What I do have is the view on 6 tee looking down the fairway. 6 itself is quite simply one of the most natural golf holes I think I could ever imagine. It was a favorite the first time CJ showed it to me and remains so after playing it in the dirt some 3 months later.
(http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6036/5909012352_77d95e3445_b.jpg)
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Since someone asked, I will talk just a bit about how the routing came to be. It's a combination of being able to read a map, of stumbling across things on site, and of having some timely assistance.
I had asked Chris for the topo of the site prior to visiting, because I am very familiar with becoming lost in the scale of the Sand Hills and I needed to identify some places to start looking for holes. When we arrived on site -- Brian Slawnik, Eric Iverson, and myself -- I actually had an 18-hole routing sketched out that I thought could be really dramatic, but I was fully prepared to change it based on things we saw in the field. Even more of that original routing was down by the river -- in fact, there were a couple of holes that CROSSED the river, which would have been nuts.
The first thing I did when we got on site was ask Chris about going down by the river. He said he'd never thought about the possibility but that he was worried it might be an environmental issue and that there was plenty of great land up above, so he hoped we'd start there. I was pretty deflated by that, because I'd studied the map enough to know it would be hard to get up and over the top of the site without having a couple of awkward holes or a couple of tough transitions. But, we did the dutiful thing and spent our first day above the road. We looked at a couple of holes going west from #1 and then coming back to #2 tee -- there was a great green site on the latter hole but in general the two involved a lot of climbing. We looked at a longer hole playing up the hill [as #2 does now] and on toward #3 green. #4 was on my map and we were pretty giddy to find a green site with some cool natural contours already in place, and #8 was on my map as well ... but we discovered the loop of #5, 6 and 7 on that first day, along with some other options, and kept going back up there to look at them again.
We spent half our second day back up above the road, pressing further north, trying to figure out how to find another 6-8 holes without too much hill climbing. There were a few potentially great holes along the way, but they didn't connect together well at all, and the overall effect would have been too hilly to walk -- and though Chris hadn't specifically asked for a walkable course, I was determined to find one.
So, at lunch the second day, I suggested that we look below the road, and we talked about how close one could get to the river and what the environmental issues would be -- some of which were about deer flies! But I knew I had some awesome holes in the hopper down there and hoped it would be okay.
My very first hole going across the road was not the present 9th -- it was a short par-4 playing down into the start of #10 fairway, and I was surprised to find that it was blind from the tee. My next hole was going to play down through the line of the ravine to the river, but as we drove down there we got into wet ground -- almost getting our vehicle stuck -- and I started to worry that Chris was going to write me off as nuts. But, later on that afternoon, we got out to where holes 11 and 12 and 13 and 16 are today, and everyone started to fall in love with the idea of getting down close to the river. We just didn't have a routing that worked.
The one other thing we DID stumble upon on that visit was the par-4 ninth. I had been saving the area of that fairway for a big practice facility, and the hole was not so obvious to build on the map. But we spent a lot of time hanging out by our hub near the first tee, considering our options, and late one afternoon the sun hit that hole just right [with the bluff behind in shadows] and I just said, wow, we should put a hole there!
Fast forward four months, and Eric Iverson and I returned in March of last year to try and hammer out the routing. This time I came in the driveway with the basics of an 18-hole routing, nine holes above the road and nine below. It included the two holes west of #1, and #3 and #4 combined into one hole, to make the upper loop. The lower loop started with holes 9-11; the 12th green was a bit further on and then we had a par-3 back to the present 13th tee; we played 13 and then went straight from there to 16-17-18. Eric and I went out and test-drove that routing our first day and thought we were close to finished, and we showed it to Chris the next day.
But, we woke up the following morning and I asked Eric what were his two least favorite holes and they were the same as mine ... the 2nd hole to the west of the 1st, and the little par-3 at the far end of the back nine. We looked at how much ground we hadn't used in the middle of the back nine -- some of it fairly gentle -- and Eric suggested adding the present 14th and 15th holes.
With that, we had eliminated the par-3 in the back nine, and got up to 19 holes -- so we could eliminate our two holes west of the first, and break up our long hole up the hill into two holes, the current second and third.
That's how genius gets done -- back and forth between the map and the field, and with a little timely help.
I've got a proposal that needs to get out the door today. I will try to edit this post tomorrow so that it's more clear, and answer questions if there are any. But, you guys are not going to convince me to change the routing now. One of the most important pieces of knowledge in golf architecture is knowing when you still have to keep working on the routing, and then knowing when it's time to stop.
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This thread just seems to further prove why speaking in absolutes and superlatives about golf courses is foolish. Too much of it is subjective and the sample size is too large for most people, perhaps for anyone, to authoritatively or convincingly say "X is the best example of Y in the world".
On this site, I kinda feel the exact opposite. I think the best threads are when someone makes an over the top, definitive statement, and then tries to defend it while everyone else demands that he qualify it or parse it.
In that spirit, I will call this the greatest thread started...this week. And, for the record, I haven't read that many others... :)
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This thread just seems to further prove why speaking in absolutes and superlatives about golf courses is foolish. Too much of it is subjective and the sample size is too large for most people, perhaps for anyone, to authoritatively or convincingly say "X is the best example of Y in the world".
On this site, I kinda feel the exact opposite. I think the best threads are when someone makes an over the top, definitive statement, and then tries to defend it while everyone else demands that he qualify it or parse it.
In that spirit, I will call this the greatest thread started...this week. And, for the record, I haven't read that many others... :)
George, you make a valid point, but the problem with John's statement was that he made no effort to back it up, despite being asked several times to do so. One would expect more from the "Greatest mind in golf". :D
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Donal,
I replied to your question earlier in the thread. I don't understand why I need to be able to prove something for it to be true. Please take a little time to read up on Bernhard Riemann who remains most famous today for the Riemann Hypothesis.
I stand by my hypothesis that Dismal Doak is the finest routing of all time. The proof is in the proverbial pudding.
Here is a picture of the Drivable par 3.
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6011/5943108084_e018470b08_b.jpg)
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My recall of events is a bit different than Tom's and I share them here as it is the story that is told on-site. I also find it very funny and hope I can put it into words that tell that properly.
Tom and Eric arrived Dismal when, like today, the club was closed for the season. That meant that they had to "rough it" and eat with the handful of us that remained in OZ (maintenance), rather than experience the "Emerald City" (the clubhouse). In fact I don't recall even showing them the clubhouse during the visit - that's not why they were there. They were very focussed.
Anyway, Tom arrived in the afternoon and took command of the 4 seat Polaris Ranger and he and Eric went out. That night at dinner, Tom casually mentioned he wanted to "look across the road" (the entrance drive) and explore the land between the Road and the Dismal River. My response was that the club had always wanted to preserve the wonderful viewscape from the clubhouse and, while I was not around at the time, I was pretty certain the members would not like the view "tainted" by a golf course and asked him to fouces on other areas north of the road. Those who have been to Dismal know about the view from the famed back deck fire pit. I could tell Tom wasn't very happy with the answer but he agreed...for now.
Dinner was "country nice" and Tom asked alot of questions about what I thought I wanted in a course, probing a few specifics like "importance of walkability", "how important is for Par to be 72" and "how improtant is overall length". I recall responding that I enjoy walking as I do at Sand Hills, that a Par 72 was unimportant, that I loathe really long par 3's, and that loverall ength didn't matter much. I told him we wanted something unique and different as the site allowed. I recall the only contributions that Tom let me prevail were "non circus greens" and bentgrass putting surfaces to match our other course. In the whole, it was obvious Tom thought me weird and I thought him to be quite "odd" as well.
The second day at Breakfast, Tom asked again (still nicely) about crossing the road. I again, but probably a bit more firmly told him no. Both the first and second expeditions on the site were DO (Doaksters Only) and I was not with them. I didn't think it was my place to attend and don't recall being invited.
To digress, I had sent Tom an set of elevations early on and told him any of the land South of the entrance road was his canvas. Unfortunately, (or Fortunately), the plans I sent did have the elevations for the land north of the road towards the river and huge bluffs including both "Big and Little Horseshoe". That was my mistake and I never thought anything more about it. In all honesty, I had sent the wrong plans to Tom!
The second day at lunch, the boys came in and shared that they had "staked out a few holes" and really liked them. While eating Tom paused, and this time stated rather firmly (even defiantly) that they were crossing the road after lunch. Not asking anymore, just a very firm Doakish statement. I didn't know what to say, was a bit struck, and said something like "goshdarnit, Tom, you can have a look but we can't building a course over there. Mind you, I still didn't know that the closely guardrd routing that Tom had prepared already had holes there, and was too stupid to to know that was the reason the routing was so closely guarded! It's also probably why he came out in the first place. I just thought the guy was secretive as Tom certainly is a very artistic in his craft. Through this, Erik was "stoically amused" by the entire dialog over, then, 3 meals. I think Erik knew they were crossing the road all along! Me? I felt like I do when my daughter keeps asking to come in later on a Saturday night. Permission by attrition is what we call that here at the house, and young Paige is a master at it.
Now that the "curfew" was eliminated, Tom invited me to come along. Eric was grinning and we set out to explore. I still didn't get it for a while but Eric kept unfolding and closely studying the site plan. I thought: man these guys can really read an elevation on the fly! Tom and Eric weren't looking for passages, they were looking at their routing! Silly me. Hole after wonderful hole was revealed and Tom was unusually quiet, those who know him know he is pretty reserved to begin with. Concentration personafied. Me, I was telling dopey stories about the site and was probably little more than a nuisance. After looking at several outstanding holes routed together, and beaching the Ranger in a bog after a wrong turn, Mr. "let me know if you ever see water up to the hubs cause we could have a problem then " (that was my job) showed me the 18th, the prettiest natural hole I had ever seen! Looking right at the clubhouse a half mile away, to boot! That's when Tom kicked the dirt and asked "how important" it was (to me) that the course finished where it starts. Now full of the DoakAid, I told Tom this was his design and I really liked the fact that it ended as it did, if he did - it was Dismal River after all and we liked being different. For those who haven't been out, you must take a cart to the Nicklaus course as it is at least a mile from the clubhouse. We don't have a huge priority on proximity out here.
In sum...fortunately, we crossed the road. Tom has a 250 yard par 3, kind of like a beautiful 7-foot blonde. We have a front 8 and back 10. Par is not 72. We'll be lucky to hit 7,000 yards. These aren't compromises, it's what was there to be discovered by a master. The routing is both wonderfully unique and very, very good. 18 terrific holes. Old' can I look across the road" has become a (still strange and quiet) friend but I confess fear he has some more tricks up his sleeve - it has to be the greens! Did he set me up? Yep - he already had the river holes on paper! Fortunately, he didn't take no for an answer, especially from a person like me who didn't know anything. Then again, this wasn't his first rodeo and he probably deal with tons of of folks who have a copy of "Architecture for Dmmies"
I also recall Tom saying one thing and, again, Tom isn't much for words. As we began the walk back to the Ranger to begin the trek back to homebase, Tom simply stopped, hands in pockets, briefly looked me in the eye, and said very seriously "this course has to be built". Knowing Tom's history with Dick Youngscap and Sand Hills, that really hit home. We wouldn't build a second course just to have two, and this is important to Tom as he gets to make his mark on a very special area. Then, imagine my surprise when I saw Tom's simple post soon after he left on a GCA thread strated by another titled "a genius routing". After visiting with this strange fellow and his sidekicks, and seeing what they found and put together, it was game on!
Other tidbits... I believe, the rumor is true, Brian Slawnik shapes to ABBA. And...we coined a new term...Doakish. And...Don Mahaffey really is that good. We are in very good hands with outstanding people. Our team, and members, are very excited!
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All these stories and no mention of this mystery woman. Who is she?
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/116c09d2.jpg?t=1311167945)
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I must admit...I find the details of new course discovery to be fascinating...especially on land like that!
It seems like its a giant puzzle and having spacial ability would be a huge plus when trying to keep it all straight in your head.
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JK,
Just to note, the picture you posted is of the par 3 3rd, which should play around 200 yds +/-.
Here is a view of the par 3 5th, which as you will recall, plays quite a bit longer than that!
(http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6047/5909006526_2edc6950c9_b.jpg)
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Eric,
Thanks, I guess that is why I called the 3rd drivable. So who is the mystery woman, please tell me it's a woman. Things get confusing out there.
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How long will the 5th play?
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How long will the 5th play?
It's a four fingered driver. I tried three and came up short.
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Jud,
As we 'played' it, the 5th was all of 250.
JK,
She is a fellow member.
CJ,
That is one beautiful post.
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JK,
She is a fellow member.
I should have known...Marketing 101. You guys are good.
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She looks quite a bit like the woman I thought I was going to marry - who had the good sense to dump me.
Thanks, Tom D & Chris J for sharing those stories. They should be preserved for the book.
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She looks quite a bit like the woman I thought I was going to marry - who had the good sense to dump me.
Thanks, Tom D & Chris J for sharing those stories. They should be preserved for the book.
George,
I hope there is never a book but am looking forward to the epic thread of 2014. "How Tom Doak screwed up the greatest routing of all time." We will be interviewing authors at the 5th major. We have already lined up three ghost writers.
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She looks quite a bit like the woman I thought I was going to marry - who had the good sense to dump me.
Thanks, Tom D & Chris J for sharing those stories. They should be preserved for the book.
George,
I hope there is never a book but am looking forward to the epic thread of 2014. "How Tom Doak screwed up the greatest routing of all time." We will be interviewing authors at the 5th major. We have already lined up three ghost writers.
Forget the writing by a "ghost", I suggest we invite Herr Doak for a Roast. That would be a fun evening!
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Tom and Chris -
2 great posts. Thanks for letting us look under the hood.
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One of the most important pieces of knowledge in golf architecture is knowing when you still have to keep working on the routing, and then knowing when it's time to stop.
I am again reminded of Malcolm Gladwell's piece about Steve Jobs, "The Tweaker," in a New Yorker just after Jobs's death:
"Jobs’s sensibility was editorial, not inventive. His gift lay in taking what was in front of him—the tablet with stylus—and ruthlessly refining it. After looking at the first commercials for the iPad, he tracked down the copywriter, James Vincent, and told him, 'Your commercials suck.'
" 'Well, what do you want?' Vincent shot back. 'You’ve not been able to tell me what you want.'
" 'I don’t know,' Jobs said. 'You have to bring me something new. Nothing you’ve shown me is even close.'
"Vincent argued back and suddenly Jobs went ballistic. 'He just started screaming at me,' Vincent recalled. Vincent could be volatile himself, and the volleys escalated.
"When Vincent shouted, 'You’ve got to tell me what you want,' Jobs shot back, 'You’ve got to show me some stuff, and I’ll know it when I see it.' "
Read more at http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/11/14/111114fa_fact_gladwell#ixzz1jwHyWdsc (http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/11/14/111114fa_fact_gladwell#ixzz1jwHyWdsc)
Which in turn reminded me of a story I edited 30 years ago, about the It ad agency of the time: Minneapolis's Fallon, McElligott, Rice.
McElligott, the creative guy, was talking about the process of writing ad copy. He said (paraphrasing now) that you went through a million possibilities -- until you found one you couldn't lie your way out of.
Re: "The one other thing we DID stumble upon on that visit was the par-4 ninth. I had been saving the area of that fairway for a big practice facility, and the hole was not so obvious to build on the map. But we spent a lot of time hanging out by our hub near the first tee, considering our options, and late one afternoon the sun hit that hole just right [with the bluff behind in shadows] and I just said, wow, we should put a hole there!" ------------- At Dismal River, it appears, Vincent's name is ... God!
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We already have a tweaker, the Nicklaus course.
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John,
In answer to your thread question...no time.
It either is or it isn't.
but the course has to live up to the routing before anything can be judged...don't you think?
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I don't know if there is such a thing as the finest routing in the world. A routing [or a golf course] can really only be declared the best for that given site -- and even then, it will never be anywhere close to unanimous. The one I've always cited as being impossible to beat is Merion (East) ... there just doesn't seem to be any other way to put that puzzle together, but that's because the property lines were tailored to fit around it over time.
Hey Tom,
Can I call you in as expert witness next time Merion throwdown breaks out?
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Jim,
No, the routing is just a part of the design. You need some history to be the greatest course of all time. I don't see that happening.
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No, I agree they are separate. I clumsily tried to say the course has to be finished before the routing can be judged in my opinion. I know Tom said he's not changing anything in the routing now but the holes do matter to the routing, don't they?
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Jim,
I've played all 18 holes. I understand, but have not seen, a magazine article details the day.
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OK.
As with all this stuff, for me it comes back to playing the game.
You didn't play a course, you walked through a framed out building.
If it doesn't improve by putting on a roof it's not what you thought.
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We already have a tweaker, the Nicklaus course.
I was not suggesting that Tom Doak is a "tweaker" -- but from what he's said, about this routing and elsewhere, he's a confirmed self-tweaker.
It's not often you'll find someone who can edit his own work, but he might be that rara avis.
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OK.
As with all this stuff, for me it comes back to playing the game.
You didn't play a course, you walked through a framed out building.
If it doesn't improve by putting on a roof it's not what you thought.
Jim,
What you probably have forgot is that the first time I played the Nicklaus course there also were not holes in the green. They had just prepared the course for winter and we played with neither holes nor pins. At least on the Doak course we had pins. I believe that if you have tees, bunkers, fairways and greens you have a course. The only thing missing is maintenance which is why we did cheat and play lift clean and place.
My office was flooded three times last year so I still do not have carpet. It is still my office.
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I was not suggesting that Tom Doak is a "tweaker" -- but from what he's said, about this routing and elsewhere, he's a confirmed self-tweaker.
It's not often you'll find someone who can edit his own word, but he might be that rara avis.
Dan:
I think you had it right in your previous post. I've always compared it to whittling away at things, but what am really doing in the routing, and throughout the construction process, is editing the land itself. Usually, that's what God did, and that's why I am at my best on great land as opposed to courses that have to be created from thin air. But I'm known to be a pretty good editor of my associates' contributions as well.
I am very good at editing my own words [given a bit of time to let the thoughts gel] -- I got that from my mom, I think. I am pretty bad at editing other people's words, it just drives me crazy that they don't think the same way I do. I've had to work at getting my associates to make suggestions on routings. At critical points, their help can be very valuable in getting my thinking out of a rut, but most of them have faith that I'll figure it all out and they are afraid of getting in the way. I don't think I've ever gone ballistic on them like Steve Jobs, but I've been known to dismiss others' ideas pretty quickly -- usually because I explored the same idea already, and figured out the place two holes later where they run into a dead end. I'm not so good at explaining myself and avoiding hurting someone's feelings over that kind of stuff, even though I'm better than I used to be.
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My office was flooded three times last year so I still do not have carpet. It is still my office.
I'd tweak its routing then...
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It's not often you'll find someone who can edit his own word, but he might be that rara avis.
Tom --
Thanks. As you'll notice, while you were posting, I ... edited myself! I had meant "work," not "word."
Mini-haha.
Dan
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Chris,
In light of the routing story, and the naming situation, I have a suggestion. Perhaps you could name the Nicklaus course "The Egg" and the Doak course " The Chicken". This would allow you to answer the two most perplexing philisophical questions in history.
1. Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
2. Why did the chicken cross the road?
And yes, it is cold today in NY and I have too much time on my hands!
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Keith...Not bad...not bad at all!
Wonder what the "Chef" thinks.
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Tom D & Chris J,
Thanks for taking the time to share those stories. There's nothing better than reading about how courses actually come to be from the people responsible for them.
Reading Tom's post reminded me of watching the montage of him recreating the process of routing Old Mac on Michael Robin's film. Would have been cool to be a fly on the Polaris Ranger for those couple of days.
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Tom D & Chris J,
Would have been cool to be a fly on the Polaris Ranger for those couple of days.
Not as cool as you might think. It's not exactly a safe vehicle in some hands. And CJ tried to leave a very talented young intern alone in the river bottom late one afternoon after a "bridge" crossing as well. I asked to be a "fly on the wall" of the Polaris and was made to run up and down dunes on mere whims of fancy when Don and Brian were laying irrigation lines out. The Ranger was a dangerous place to be. ;D
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I thought I did the bridge well, young Captain. Never even got the Ranger on two wheels. Three maybe, but never two. The wounded bull was far more of a concern.
That was a fun time!