Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Ran Morrissett on December 29, 2011, 11:16:28 AM
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GolfClubAtlas.com is in the middle of its thirteenth season. Yes, that puts us behind the Queen as she approaches her Diamond Jubilee and the Simpsons as they head into their 23rd season but we are indeed starting to build history of our own, all the while continuing to ‘promote the frank discussion of golf course architecture.’
The number of kind emails, instant messages of support, impromptu gatherings with visitors to Pinehurst and voluntary donations set records this year. Certainly, the camaraderie displayed at GolfClubAtlas events like the Buda Cup remains as strong as ever with many friendships continuing to develop and flourish around the world. Requests from people to join the Discussion Group melee is constant with four or five new members added each week.
Ironically, the number of cat fights and hair-pulling contests also seems to be at a high, which is both flattering and problematic. Flattering in that people care so much to take the time to go berserk. Problematic in that good people are being chased away by boorish behavior. James Frank’s review in the Met Golfer this past winter said that GolfClubAtlas.com was a ‘noble idea now run by the inmates.’ :P Ouch – that hurt! Throughout the last several years numerous people have called for posting guidelines. These might be so obvious as to be unnecessary but here are four:
1) Before typing, decide if you are adding to the study of golf course architecture. If not, pause until you are, as this is a golf architecture web site. Sexy here are things like Little Aston, De Pan and Yeamans Hall.
2) While typing, take the time to explain fully the point or points that you intend to make. It is hard to imagine how blurting out incomplete sentences adds much value, either to your life or to those who have to wade past the morass to find the good stuff.
3) Before hitting the Post button consider the tone of your post. Does it encourage others to participate or is its purpose to prove that you are the World’s Smartest Man (the title of World’s Most Interesting Man is already taken)? If you are discussing a subject matter you are likely fine. If you are addressing the perceived ignorance of another human being then you are likely less fine.
4) Before typing your twelfth post of the thread and RESORTING TO ALL CAPS TO DEMONSTRATE YOUR RIGHTEOUSNESS AND THAT YOU MEAN BUSINESS, think of your loved ones and consider why you are embarrassing them by starting to rant like a lunatic in a widely read forum.
Everyone can be a critic – that is easy. Being accurate and offering insight are the real challenges. Some people post with a certitude that defies logic and constrains real debate. It is like stating that the best rock & roll band of all time is the Rolling Stones, that the best motivational speaker of recent times is Chris Gardner, that the year’s best movie is Of Gods and Men and the best book is our own Peter Mallalieu’s “The Artists of the Alpine Club”. Though correct across the board ;), others might put forth the Beatles, Billy Graham, Barney’s Version, and Cocktail Hour Under the Tree of Forgetfulness . Misguided opinions like these shouldn’t be scorned and ridiculed, only pitied ;D. Just kidding! So it goes with posting. Tolerance enables a greater exchange of ideas; which means that more information will be uncovered and disseminated. Meaningful discourse is at the heart of a successful discussion group. Of course, some posters may not care much about anything other than themselves and having a good time. They think they have a right to post here and they could care less in participating in a bigger purpose/picture other than their petty snide remarks. Though few, such folks should either alter their behavior or delete their account (or instant message me to do so).
Both content and tone matter. As an example, Mike Tanier profiles the NFL match-ups for the NY Times every Sunday. Two and three years ago, I thought that he offered some of the best writing on any subject. He was amazingly insightful and coupled hard facts with a blistering wit. As a guesstimate, I would say his game analyses were 80% info and 20% biting commentary. However, this year that ratio seems to have flipped and he appears more focused on being funny than providing useful information. Personally, I find him less funny and insightful but others might prefer today’s writing style. That’s an individual preference but the point is more how someone’s writing changes with time – and not necessarily for the better.
I use this example as part of the rub with GolfClubAtlas.com as it ripens with age. Long-time posters can fall into a trap of making lazy posts that are devoid of meaningful content. Since GolfClubAtlas began we have all become a dozen years older. Some of us are grumpier, some are wiser, some travel less, some travel more. Some are more set in their ways; others are more open to learning. Regardless, frequent posters (defined as those who average posting more than once daily year after year) dictate the tone and should zealously guard the content of the web site. Unfortunately, this is not the case. People become addicted to posting for the sake of posting and the quality of the content deteriorates. Additionally, a poor example is set for those who lurk and then post. The character of the Discussion Group deteriorates into an unctuous ramble and its allure is tarnished. Just like we did last year, some fifteen to twenty pages of meaningless and off-topic threads will be deleted in the month of January as we want the wealth of information found in the Discussion Group to be as tight and user friendly as possible.
Certainly, GolfClubAtlas.com must evolve and we are always looking at how technology can be best used. For instance, a feature exists whereby if you start a thread, you can ban a person from posting within it. Would that help in our case? Maybe/maybe not. There are certain pairs of people who just can’t seem to get along. Frequently, I know both and, individually, each is a fine person with something to offer. Put them together and disaster ensues. Maybe technology can help us head off such situations. Elsewhere within the site, streaming video certainly has a roll to play too. We started using a thing called SEOs ??? this year. Though we have always featured highly in Google searches for ‘golf course architecture,’ we were bizarrely on the second page for Bing. That has now changed. As our reach expands, so too must our conduct. We are already a niche subject and we are going to perhaps become even more niche because manners will matter here more so than ever, something that is frequently lacking elsewhere on the world wide web.
Mistakes have been made in running this web site. As there is no manual on how to grow a site error free, future mistakes will likely occur as well. Nonetheless, we trudge on, head down into the wind, doing the best we can. Thankfully, Ben and I received more assistance this year than ever with the majority of the heavy lifting done by Chris Buie and Joe Andriole. Chris assembled much of what was put on GolfClubAtlas.com and did a superb job of finding so many fine vignettes to put on the GolfClubAtlas.com Facebook page. His Halloween feature was truly the spookiest :o photo I have seen in recent times. Joe vetted each and every course profile. I am convinced that ‘Why use twenty words when nineteen shall suffice’ is somewhere on his family’s coat of arms! Going forward more people will participate into the operation of GolfClubAtlas.com as we continue to expand and strive to offer the best experience possible.
If you heard the Queen’s Christmas Address this year, you heard a message of caring and of family and community. Her message particularly resonated with me during these hard economic times and it also made me think of us. We are all brought together here with the common bond of an appreciation in golf course architecture and for caring how man interacts with nature. We can accomplish more together than apart. We want the website to represent us and our stated goals and adhere to the highest standards. Set in a commercial free environment the core of GolfClubAtlas.com - lively interchanges with people/friends around the world, course profiles, Feature Interviews, In My Opinion pieces - will remain unchanged. Will someone step up in 2012 and profile hidden gems as thoroughly as Sean Arble did with Pennard and Burnham & Berrow or like David Stewart with his profile of the Kampen Course at Purdue? Maybe a monster piece like Kevin Mendik’s Dick Wilson treatise will appear. Let’s all hope! Chris Buie is presently finishing up an article on Pinehurst No.1 which we will post in January. Pictorials like the recent ones of Royal Ashdown Forest, Seacroft and Elie in the Discussion Group add much and are certainly encouraged. Next year the Feature Interview section gets off to a rousing start with a formerMarine in San Francisco, followed by a woman in NYC and then heads to the UK for March’s dialogue which will be rolled out in two parts during that month. Further out in the year, our own George Bahto will (happily and finally!) release his much anticipated follow-on Seth Raynor book. If all of us pitch in, the community that is GolfClubAtlas.com will continue to be the number one source for golf course architecture in the world. That is a true privilege and honor that we should all take pride in.
Fortunately, the janissary of GolfClubAtlas.com continue to support and care for it deeply. Why? Because they love golf and golf course architecture and they believe that good things emanate from this web site. As proof, I have hundreds of emails from club board members expressing their gratitude for this commercial-free resource as well as from people who have formed lasting friendships as a result of this site. Hopefully we can continue that tradition as we charge into 2012.
Happy holidays and thanks to everyone for making GolfClubAtlas.com a unique place to visit and spend time.
Cheers,
Ran & Ben
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Amen!
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Thanks for the site, Ran (and Ben). You are correct that friendships have been formed (and are still forming) through the good graces of golfclubatlas.com.
I know that I am by no means your ideal contributor (too much "humor," too little substance; too much inmate, not enough warden) -- but will attempt to make my contributions somewhat less frequent and somewhat more valuable in 2012. Every New Year needs at least one resolution that has nothing to do with losing weight.
May I suggest one addendum to the proposed code of conduct? Thank you.
I propose this: Please do not start a thread the purpose of which is to redirect me to your own blog. IMO: 'T'ain't fittin'! If you have something to say here, say it here. (Go ahead and mention your blog, if you want, as Jeff Shelman did in his most recent thread ... but include the content of your blog post, as Jeff did, not just a link to it.)
Thanks again.
Dan
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Thanks for the state of the union, Ran, and for making the discussion group available to us all. I agree that your four guidelines would make the site better and will try to heed them.
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Ran:
Thanks for the post. Coming from the least important person on this discussion group (at least to everyone other than my wife and 5 kids), I will do my best to adhere to your guidelines. If anyone on the group thinks one of my posts is outside of the guidelines, private message me immediately so that I can delete the post. Also, for the record, my wife tells me that I am nowhere close to the smartest man in the world - she married me for my looks. ;)
If I can ever be of assistance to you or the site, please let me know. I am most appreciative of your work and would love to give back in any way that I can.
Happy holidays everyone!
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Ran,
Thanks again for everything. I suggest when posting that we all imagine we've been invited out to a friend's club and are having a discussion over cocktails at the 19th hole. One probably wouldn't rant and rave like a lunatic in such a situation and would remember to treat the club and host with the proper respect. One thing which separates golf from many other endeavors is the gentleman's code by which it is played. It applies here as well. And don't forget those contributions...
P.S. How are we coming on that Iphone app? ;)
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Ran,
Thank you for your annual address and for your continued administration of Golf Club Atlas. This website and discussion forum is by far the most informative and useful website devoted to golf course architecture...I can't think of another site or discussion forum that even comes close.
Thanks also go out to Chris Buie and Joe Andriole.
As I moved this past year from Chicago to the Minnesota, I was bummed to leave so many great Chicago GCAers only to find another great group of guys here. Through a Google E-Mail Group, group lunches and dinners, and rounds of golf everyone here has been extremely welcoming to me and is really a testament to how great Golf Club Atlas is.
Here's to a great 2012!!
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We need a Pink Pitcher award.?
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Happy Holidays to you and yours. Lets look forward to a great New Year, and truly thanks for everything you have done...RHE
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Nice post, thanks for everything, Happy New Year.
Ironically, the number of cat fights and hair-pulling contests also seems to be at a high, which is both flattering and problematic. Flattering in that people care so much to take the time to go berserk. Problematic in that good people are being chased away by boorish behavior. James Frank’s review in the Met Golfer this past winter said that GolfClubAtlas.com was a ‘noble idea now run by the inmates.’ :P Ouch – that hurt!
Please don't believe people when they make such broad sweeping, and I'll say it, ignorant remarks. We do indeed see unfortunate scuffles on here, too frequently by most people's standards, but they still are an incredibly small portion of the amazing content on here.
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God bless us, every one!
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Shoot, I kind of like the fights.
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Jim,
I think it depends entirely on whether the participants have a sense of humor about it or if it gets mean-spirited. One of the funniest things I've seen on here was JC Jones riling up a frequent contributor by playfully pushing his GCA buttons. That's 180 degrees from the name-calling and bitter diatribes that unfortunately get aired from time to time.
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When James Frank starts posting (please tell me he doesn't post...) on here, he can make such statements. Like a sibling without kids, telling you how to raise yours.
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"Spoken words are silver, unspoken words are gold." - Leo Tolstoy, War and Peace
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Ran,
Thanks as always for providing the forum (and wider website) for our education and entertainment.
Regarding these guidelines:
1) Before typing, decide if you are adding to the study of golf course architecture. If not, pause until you are, as this is a golf architecture web site. Sexy here are things like Little Aston, De Pan and Yeamans Hall.
2) While typing, take the time to explain fully the point or points that you intend to make. It is hard to imagine how blurting out incomplete sentences adds much value, either to your life or to those who have to wade past the morass to find the good stuff.
3) Before hitting the Post button consider the tone of your post. Does it encourage others to participate or is its purpose to prove that you are the World’s Smartest Man (the title of World’s Most Interesting Man is already taken)? If you are discussing a subject matter you are likely fine. If you are addressing the perceived ignorance of another human being then you are likely less fine.
4) Before typing your twelfth post of the thread and RESORTING TO ALL CAPS TO DEMONSTRATE YOUR RIGHTEOUSNESS AND THAT YOU MEAN BUSINESS, think of your loved ones and consider why you are embarrassing them by starting to rant like a lunatic in a widely read forum.
Adherence to these by all posters will undoubtedly improve the discussion group, and I hope there is a plan in place to police those guidelines and/or remove those who refuse to comply.
Though it should be sufficient, your advisory above is unlikely, without follow-up, to affect the behaviour of those who make it necessary for you to set out rules such as those above.
As George Pazin says, when you get rid of the noise, the aggression and the forest of OT, there is still a lot of great stuff posted in this forum daily. It would be great for those threads to sit front and centre, uncluttered by the rubbish.
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Thanks, Ran.
Your post brought something to mind. I've realized that I never thought of the discussion board as the centre-piece and main value of this site -- I think the reviews and the my opinion pieces and the feature interviews are what the site is truly about, the main purpose/meaning of it. And I guess because of that, I've always been prone to post thoughts/ideas willy nilly, especially amongst a few friends, without much planning or thought. But I see now that many take the discussion more seriously than I do. Don't get me wrong - I try to post intelligently, but to me it's a place to knock around and try out ideas, even if they are merely half-backed opinions. But I see that this clutters up the space, and that there are many who know what they are talking about want to stay on point. I'll be more conscious of that in the future.
Peter
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Ran,
Well said. Here's hoping it's well read. The best to you in 2012.
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All the best to everyone for 2012.
If I may criticize Ran's piece most respectfully, I believe it is very true, very heart-felt and very long. The main insight to me is hidden in-between paragraphs of good-will and pleading, I quote:
Regardless, frequent posters (defined as those who average posting more than once daily year after year) dictate the tone and should zealously guard the content of the web site. Unfortunately, this is not the case.
As these are only a handful of people, why not get them together in one room and sort out the problems? And give them some kind of responsibility (such as policing threads), that'll teach 'em. I'm serious, make the goat the gardener, it works most of the time.
Ulrich
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Thank you again, Ran and Ben and Santa's helpers.
It is easy sometimes to drift away for the DG, once the threads become posters own diatribe and the thread board looks like the same old info, I for one and am sure most members and lurkers, find not just the DG, but the essays and profiles and reviews of great value, sometimes we just have to dig a little deeper.
For those that choose to, or perhaps are not in the moment when posting, (as is increasingly possible today with so many different devices, etc,) topping up threads with their own personal OT input, perhaps consider their day or week or the planning of their next golf trip, a world without GCA, I hope Ran's points are well heeded.
Happy New Year to you all - and wishing you all lots of great golf and discussion in 2012!
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It was pleasure to
crush meet you again this year Ran. ;D
I have been very busy of late but it seems I am the only one to have noticed that in the reformatting the font size has been reduced. Now it seems that my misspent youth is catching up with me, normal posts of any length are difficult to read and quotes almost impossible. I’m at that curious age where I need glasses for certain tasks and it’s not going to get better. So I please be kind to those who are (slightly) older than you and make things more legible again.
Happy New Year.
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Ran, Happy New Year to one and all in the GCA world. I will confess there are four or five regular posters whom I avoid like the plague. I mean if they start a topic I stay away even if it looks like an interesting subject. It does seem as if they dominate the site at times as well. So there can be long periods of really not reading and contributing to the site as I would like. A few years ago, it seemed like those type personalities would just get bored and go away. Now the guys I feel are problematic feed off each other. It just gets worse and worse. I had hoped you would send a private email to people who create problems to remind them of our basic ideals. We have managed to keep a large number of industry people who provide insight and balance to discussions. We also have new people with fresh ideas and thoughts which is great too.
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Ran, Happy New Year to one and all in the GCA world. I will confess there are four or five regular posters whom I avoid like the plague. I mean if they start a topic I stay away even if it looks like an interesting subject. It does seem as if they dominate the site at times as well. So there can be long periods of really not reading and contributing to the site as I would like. A few years ago, it seemed like those type personalities would just get bored and go away. Now the guys I feel are problematic feed off each other. It just gets worse and worse. I had hoped you would send a private email to people who create problems to remind them of our basic ideals. We have managed to keep a large number of industry people who provide insight and balance to discussions. We also have new people with fresh ideas and thoughts which is great too.
John,
Everyone on this site respects you. Why don't you send the four or five regular posters who you think are a problem a private message and let them know why you feel that way. If I am one I would prefer to know rather than be a part of these vague accusations you and others are throwing out.
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Tigre...Maybe he did send that private email...maybe he respects all of us enough to lay out his ideals for the site that he created and maintains at our benefit...
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Thanks for sharing Ran.
Best to you and yours in 2012,
Emmy
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Ran,
Happy New Year. Thanks for this forum that has enriched our lives. From the camaraderie of outings, friendships formed, courses seen and played to authors and books (non-golf) and dining establishments that I have been turned on to by our amazing group of participants.
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Well said Ran (and others on this thread). Here's to a great 2012...
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Barney aka John, You are not one of the guys I am mentioning. I am quick to jab you when i think you are being a bit off the wall or not respectful of an honest and heartfelt post by someone. Naturally this seems to happen mostly in the winter when being stuck indoors rules the day and night. lol Thank you for the thought, but this is Ran's site. He has done a tremendous job in this area over the decade I have been around here. I would never be presumptuous enough to be a deputy without a badge.
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Golf has rules. Why not the forum. Just keep the number under 35 and don't include a decisions book.
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Golf has rules. Why not the forum. Just keep the number under 35 and don't include a decisions book.
Didn't Callaway show us that Rule 35 is the most important? It doesn't matter if you walk, ride, use a GPS, drink a case of beer, or not give a rats ass who Donald Ross was, it's a game and having fun is the goal of the game and I hope the users of this site.
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If I may criticize Ran's piece most respectfully, I believe it is very true, very heart-felt and very long. The main insight to me is hidden in-between paragraphs of good-will and pleading, I quote:
Regardless, frequent posters (defined as those who average posting more than once daily year after year) dictate the tone and should zealously guard the content of the web site. Unfortunately, this is not the case.
As these are only a handful of people, why not get them together in one room and sort out the problems? And give them some kind of responsibility (such as policing threads), that'll teach 'em. I'm serious, make the goat the gardener, it works most of the time.
Ulrich
A classic. I had never been chided for slow play by someone ahead of me until the Buda this year. Being the direct type myself, I appreciate the well-meaning candor. I agree with John K, we're all big boys here; if there is a problem with offensive or boorish banter, a brief IM or E-Mail might diffuse it. That's a far superior approach than the behind the scenes bad-mouthing that, unfortunately, goes on.
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Thanks for the message Ran. The portion that resonates with me is trying to explain the reasons behind my opinions. It is an interesting exercise and one that grows more difficult as time goes by.
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Well, we're all a bit unattentive at times, that is just human. I once wrote a chauvinistic e-mail and sent it to everyone in the company. Way to gain notoriety. But there's no value in dwelling on negatives for too long. What people tend to respect is if you actually make an effort to learn and improve.
Internet forums and life in general would work a lot better if people owned up to their shit and everyone else just moved on.
Ulrich
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Well, we're all a bit unattentive at times, that is just human. I once wrote a chauvinistic e-mail and sent it to everyone in the company. Way to gain notoriety. But there's no value in dwelling on negatives for too long. What people tend to respect is if you actually make an effort to learn and improve.
Internet forums and life in general would work a lot better if people owned up to their shit and everyone else just moved on.
Ulrich
Amen! I don't know about chauvinistic E-Mails, though I've stuck my foot in my mouth more than a few times. My mantra should be two ears and one mouth, but my preference is for wide, varied discourse and candor.
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For me the discussion group is the heart and soul of the website. For new visitors (crucial to sustain this) when you click on "discussion group" in the main menu you are taken to a cryptic looking page.
I would take people directly to the discussion group page.
Could be a minor issue but you will lose new people who don't know where to go after they click on discussion group. An analytics program would reveal the bounce rate.
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For me the discussion group is the heart and soul of the website. For new visitors (crucial to sustain this) when you click on "discussion group" in the main menu you are taken to a cryptic looking page.
I would take people directly to the discussion group page.
Could be a minor issue but you will lose new people who don't know where to go after they click on discussion group. An analytics program would reveal the bounce rate.
+1
It's isn't that obvious where you go next after that.
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Ran,
I also have noticed Mike Tanier's more irreverent tone in the last year, or so. I have chosen to believe that this is at the behest of his (supposedly) distinguished employer who is doing their utmost to sell more advertising space and compete with the New York Post, as well.
However, your analogy is especially apt since I'm pretty sure that nobody who posts on Golf Club Atlas is beholden to anyone financially in how they do so.
Any content that is inappropriate is, alas, of their own free will and, IMO, their own poor judgement.
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Great post, Ran. I hope everyone remembers these rules apply to everyone, not just their clique of friends. I especially hope that the people who suggest that others should be black-listed because they say things they disagree with about architecture or prices at courses are reminded of the guidelines or rebuked firmly. Black-listing over opinions is not what GCA.com is about.
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Thanks, Ran.
Your post brought something to mind. I've realized that I never thought of the discussion board as the centre-piece and main value of this site -- I think the reviews and the my opinion pieces and the feature interviews are what the site is truly about, the main purpose/meaning of it. And I guess because of that, I've always been prone to post thoughts/ideas willy nilly, especially amongst a few friends, without much planning or thought. But I see now that many take the discussion more seriously than I do. Don't get me wrong - I try to post intelligently, but to me it's a place to knock around and try out ideas, even if they are merely half-backed opinions. But I see that this clutters up the space, and that there are many who know what they are talking about want to stay on point. I'll be more conscious of that in the future.
Peter
NO NO NO MY FRIEND...YOU ARE FIBER AND FABRIC TO THIS SITE...NOT TOFU!
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Well there are worse things to be addicted to. Fourteen weeks of treatment have tought me that. You have created a monster Ran. I'm glad I'm still a part of it. I have many great friendships because of this site and am greatful for them all. My golfing days are over but not my passion for architecture. Anthony.
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Well there are worse things to be addicted to. Fourteen weeks of treatment have tought me that. You have created a monster Ran. I'm glad I'm still a part of it. I have many great friendships because of this site and am greatful for them all. My golfing days are over but not my passion for architecture. Anthony.
Great to see you Doc!