Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Kevin Pallier on December 25, 2011, 06:40:43 AM
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What are the “best” P3’s, P4’s and P5’s you have seen by the architect mentioned above ?
Try limiting it to max. three per hole type and please explain why you think they are so ?
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Par 3: 7th at Barnbougle Dunes. The challenge and risk/reward is exactly right for the modest length, it's gorgeous and the scale of the features is perfect. Runners-up: 13 at Barnbougle Dunes and 9 at Renaissance Club.
Short 4: 2nd at St Andrews Beach. Reachable, but also interesting and challenging as a lay-up + wedge hole. Great green, great tie-in of golf and native landscape. Runners-up: 4 at Barnbougle Dunes and 8 at Renaissance Club -- which leaves out such wonderful holes as 14 at St Andrews Beach, 3, 12 and 15 at Barnbougle Dunes. In my experience holes of this type are Renaissance Golf Design's (mindful of the fact Mike Clayton Golf Design teamed up on two of the above courses) greatest strength.
Long 4: 11th at Renaissance Club. Really tough "do or die" drive and the green complex sets up perfectly for a long iron approach. And, really, it has "Muldoon's Tree", what more can you want? Runners-up: 18 at St Andrews Beach and 16 at Renaissance Club.
Par 5: There isn't one that stands out and demands to be selected. Maybe 1 at Barnbougle Dunes, 17 at St Andrews Beach or 10 at Renaissance Club. All fun holes with fun greens and approach shots.
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Scott / Brian - some good starts. If you could expand as to 3 P3's, 3 P4's and 3 P5's ?
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I've only played Charlotte GL and Pacific Dunes, so not enough of his work is known to contribute.
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#9 at Yale
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8th at Ballyneal is one of the best par 5's I've ever seen!
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6 and 16 at Pac Dunes stand out to me. 18 at Cape Kidnappers is a great finish. No better green site.
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The 4th at Riverfront (Suffolk VA) is on their web site as one of his & team's best par 3's. I started a thread on it.
I have started Riverfront threads on the 5th & 10th holes at Riverfront. Many of you, if you ever got to Riverfront would discover that holes 1 (hard 4 par start), 3 (par 4.5), 7 (short par 4), 12 (long 4), 13 (medium 3 w/ smallest green on the course), 14 (longest fishook par 5) & 15 (most picturesque but plays harder than it looks) are none too shabby.
When at the Bay of Dreams w/ Tom, in January of 2006, he told me that PD no. 8 was his favorite hole, without defining "favorite". Even at the rough-in stage the 9th at the Bay of Dreams was a stand out short par 5 hole.
I got 3 rounds at Beechtree (NLE) before closing and my most memorable holes were no. 6 (uphill dogleg left medium length par 4, majestic green site on a hill framed by, I think maples), no. 8, (longest par 5); no. 12 (blind tee shot, long thin green w/ deep bunkers right & left) & 13 (middle length par 3, hard tee shot) & the three finishing holes which gave the golfer a real breather down the stretch.
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Cary, you hit the rum punch early?
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Par 3's...
The Redan at Pacific Dunes...wonderful setting and really natural looking classic golf hole (how about that hidden bunker under that pine tree on the FAR right?)
17 at Rock Creek...stunning!
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/RockCreek17.jpg)
Par 4's...
2 at Sebonack is an all-time great hole...challenging off the tee, on the approach, and with an epic green
6 at Pacific Dunes is amazing...what a unique hole with a lot of different ways to try to tame it.
13 at Pacific Dunes...rugged hole that feels more like an adventure hike rather than a game of golf.
Par 5's...
15 at Old Mac (Westward Ho!)...again, more like an adventure than golf.
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/OldMac15.jpg)
8 at Ballyneal...one of the best holes of all time (IMO).
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Par 5 10th at Black Forest
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Par 3 - #11 Pacific Dunes
Short Par 4 - #16 Pacific Dunes
Long Par 4 - #16 Old Mac
Par 5 - #8 Stone Eagle
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P3: (Tie) Old Macdonald #2 and Common Ground #17. The hole at Bandon does a phenomenal job of presenting a classic problem to the player. Try to get it between the Hill and Strath, or whether to fly the Strath. From the tee the slope looks benign, then you get to the green and realize the danger of leaving it short. The hole is perfectly framed by the ridge behind it. The Eden at Old Mac is what every "island" green should aspire to. The long 3 at Common Ground is underrated by quite a bit. Three characteristics define the hole and provide a dozen ways to play the hole. 1) The crossing bunkers 150-200 yds off the tee confuse the eye into thinking it is a long carry and hide 2) the large amount of fairway short and right of the green. This huge "layup" area provides playability for the higher handicaps and provides a strategic conundrum due to the 3) huge hump in the middle of the green that effectively divides the green in two. Ask yourself, is the pin up or back. And if in front, par is the worst I should make, if in back, par is a birdie.
P4: Old Macdonald #4 How can I not pick #13 at Pacific Dunes, or #7 at Ballyneal? Because I play each one the same every time. Pac Dunes #13 is always two busted shots into the wind, pray for two putts or an up and down. Ballyneal #7 is always a 3 wood over the bunker, chip and putt (or two). Old Mac #4, with it's insanely confusing tee shot--that you can hit a lot further left than you think--sets the tone. Succeed on the tee and a par can be had. If not, and you end up right of the hogsback leaving yourself 200+ yds (blind) to the green, the decision is about the second shot. There's a very nice place to layup in between the last centerline bunker and the valley of sin, but it will require accuracy. Then a terrifying in-betweener shot awaits for your third. The green surface is no picnic with seemingly every putt darting for the green edges.
P5: Ballyneal #13 What's that you say? This isn't a par 5? Not only is it a par 5 from the far back tee to the right of #12 green, it's the best par 5 at Ballyneal and probably the best par 5 of Renaissance's that I've seen. The carry isn't as crazy as it seems at around 190 from the back. Once on the fairway, most golfers will be left with a 230-260 yd shot to a green that is partially hidden by a small dune with a bunker in its face. If the pin is tucked behind that dune, you have no chance at getting there. If the pin is in the center or front, there is a nice halfpipe feature that can help funnel a low slinging shot towards the hole. But beware, the isn't a ton of room in front between the dune and the bunker complex on the left for a miss short, and a miss right of centerline will leave a third shot almost completely blind to the green. The green isn't the toughest to putt at Ballyneal, but has been confusing to myself and many playing partners in the past. I still have no idea where a putt above the hole putting to the front of the green is going to break. The caddies don't either.
Some honorable mentions include: #2 at Stone Eagle, #16 at Old Mac, #3 at Ballyneal, #2 and #6 at Pacific Dunes, #8 at Common Ground. To come: #3 (P3), #4 #9 #14 #18 (P4) and #10 (P5) Dismal River. Lots of good holes there.
I need to preface this post because I haven't played a ton of Renaissance's work. Most importantly, I've yet to see Barnbougle, Cape K, St. Andrews Beach or Rock Creek. But the holes above stand out among the ones I have played.
PS--Maybe I like Old Macdonald more than I thought I did. ;D
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ben. - Or you've contract recentitis. ;D
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Best Par 3's:
Rock Creek Cattle Company #17 (the most natural setting for a par 3 I have ever seen, I was in shock when I stepped on the tee)
Tumble Creek #11 (By far the best par 3 at the golf club, right into the wind to a crowned green)
Old MacDonald #5 Short (Personally I don't think this hole gets enough respect, people complain to much about the severity of the green, but with the ocean in the background, and a good view of the whole golf course, and with pac dunes #17 right to your left, it is a great green site.)
Best Par 4's:
Pacific Dunes #13 (Right along the ocean, with the biggest sand dune I have seen to the right, pretty much explains it right there)
Rock Creek Cattle Company #7 (AMAZING golf hole, it is a rollercoaster up, down, up, down, No bunkers needed on this great hole)
Stone Eagle #6 (My favorite hole at Stone Eagle, uphill par 4 360 yards, to a beautiful skyline green, with a cape style tee shot.)
Best Par 5's:
Rock Creek Cattle Company #11 (My favorite Doak Par 5, the 11th hole represents what makes a great par 5.)
Tumble Creek #4 (The only hole where they moved a significant amount of dirt and it paid off with being a great two tiered uphill par 5, you have to see it to believe it)
Ballyneal #16 (my favorite hole at Ballyneal, the shoot through the dunes to an elevated green for you second is amazing)
Stone Eagle #8 (Only 500 yards, most people think it will be easy to reach in two, but with the green right over a ravine carrying an uphill 200 yard shot on your second is a lot harder than you think. Most underrated hole at Stone Eagle.)
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8 at Old Mac is my favorite hole on the course.
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A few antipodean nominations...
Explanations later - I'm about to rush out the door to play Kingston Heath with Bill Schulz!
Par 3
7 Barnbougle Dunes
13 Barnbougle Dunes
Par 4
2 St Andrews Beach
4 Barnbougle Dunes
17 Cape Kidnappers
Par 5
4 Cape Kidnappers
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Par 3
I really like the 11th at Pac Dunes, and the 12th at Old Mac from the back tee.
Honorable mention to the 11th at High Point, 17th at Pd, and 3rd at Texas Tech. The 5th at Dismal will make some lists in the future.
Par 4
The 4th at Apache Stronghold was one of my all time favorites. I like the 10th at Old Mac a lot. There are a lot of good par 4s at Old Mac, but few engage my brain like the 10th.
Honorable mention to the 2nd, 6th, and 13th at PD. I have a feeling the 13th at Dismal River will be a choice of mine in the future.
Par 5
Love the 17th at OM and the 18th at PD.
There is (was?) a par 5 at Apache, the 15th I believe, that was a downhill dog leg right that had some of the most natural green surrounds and natural green contours I'd ever seen. Subtle, yet excellent.
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What say you Tom Doak?
Which are your best (favorite) holes?
Isn't MacKenzie quoted on the Pasatiempo scorecard that, "16 was his favorite par 4"?
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What say you Tom Doak?
Which are your best (favorite) holes?
Peter...
perhaps this will answer for Tom.
http://www.renaissancegolf.com/work/rgd_best_holes/ (http://www.renaissancegolf.com/work/rgd_best_holes/)
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Thanks Mac, I guess a little google time would have answered the question.
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None from Stonewall??? I am really shocked by this omission. Might have to ride up tomorrow and take some pics. There are some beautiful and challenging holes there. My book is at the office but i recall it being in his top choices. You guys must have hit the egg nog too hard.
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What say you Tom Doak?
Which are your best (favorite) holes?
Pete:
Yes, I'm on record on our web site, but it's nice to see so many different holes nominated by others, and to hear the reasoning for the selections.
I've always told golf writers that I have two kinds of favorite holes.
The first kind are the holes like the 13th at Pacific Dunes, or the 8th at Ballyneal, or the soon-to-be 3rd at Dismal River. These were just laying there waiting for me to find them; but, once you've found them, there really isn't too much to do or to be proud of.
The other kind are holes like the 18th at Stonewall (Old course), or the 8th at Pacific Dunes, or the 7th at Ballyneal, where I didn't know exactly what we were going to do when we started building those courses. I'm really the proudest of holes like those, where after a long period of staring at them, something clicked in my brain and we wound up with something really good that I never expected.
I'm surprised that no one has picked a hole from Lost Dunes yet, either. I've got several favorites there.
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I have seen a view Doak’s (Pacific Dunes, Barnbougle, St Andrews Beach, Old Mac, Sebonack ) but not the following (Rock Creek, Cape Kidnappers) so for mine:
P3's:
7th Barnbougle - great short hole and example why length isn’t required to make a strong P3 . Safe miss is right but still a tricky up’n’down awaits
13th Barnbougle - one of the wildest and most fun greens one could hope to putt on
11th Pacific Dunes - perched against the cliffs a tricky shot is required to a small target that is beset by bunkers
P4's:
2nd SAB - bunkers are aptly placed on one of the better modern short P4’s going around with the green is tucked hard up against a dune.
13th Pacific Dunes - great use of natural contours and setting
18th SAB - probably my favourite closing hole of Doak - elevated tee shot to a green that is in a lovely setting
P5's:
17th OM - great use of angles and options
18th Sebonack - bunkered right away from the ocean captures those that bail right
3rd Pacific Dunes – a challenge in the breeze with centreline bunkers ever-present
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I'm surprised that no one has picked a hole from Lost Dunes yet, either. I've got several favorites there.
Tom,
You beat me to it. I've been following to see if anyone would mention Lost Dunes and was going to add my 2 cents this morning.
I may elect different holes than most from Lost Dunes, but my favorites are:
#1 - A short par 4 with a very generous fairway unless you're driver carries too far then you need to take the more aggressive line down the left side. What I've always loved about this hole is the green. Even with 75 yards in to this green, it's difficult to get the ball close to every hole location except the middle back. The green is a low profile, lay of the land roller coaster. Awesome.
#14 - Again, a short par 4 that just gets into the player's head right from the tee. Water all down the right side, the aggressive play is hugging the water which gives a much better angle into the green. Fairway is wider than it looks, but your eye looks right down the right side. Another great low profile hole. Like #1, nothing flashy (the view from the tee is great) but a blast.
#15 - So many options on this par 5. Be as aggressive as you can handle on the tee shot then make smart decisions up the fairway. Reachable in 2 for stronger hitters but lots of trouble around the green. Again, a low profile green that will shrug mediocre shots off. The green set on top of the hill is a wonderful example of restraint. No flashy bunkers or extravagant mounding. A fun hole with an incredible view from the green back down the fairway.
Ken
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Par 3s - Pacific Dunes 11, Old Macdonald 2, Pacific Dunes 5,
Short par 4s - Pacific Dunes 6, Ballyneal 7, Pacific Dunes 2
Long Par 4s - Ballyneal 2, Pacific Dunes 13, Old Macdonald 16
Par 5s - Pacific Dunes 15, Old Macdonald 6, Ballyneal 8
The above lists are in no particular order. I'm not sure there is enough yardage distance between 2 and 13 at Pacific Dunes for me to distinguish one as short and one as long. They are probably both more like medium but I wasn't going to create a third par 4 category since I already cheated.
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Par 3s - Pacific Dunes 11, Old Macdonald 2, Pacific Dunes 5,
Short par 4s - Pacific Dunes 6, Ballyneal 7, Pacific Dunes 2
Long Par 4s - Ballyneal 2, Pacific Dunes 13, Old Macdonald 16
Par 5s - Pacific Dunes 15, Old Macdonald 6, Ballyneal 8
The above lists are in no particular order. I'm not sure there is enough yardage distance between 2 and 13 at Pacific Dunes for me to distinguish one as short and one as long. They are probably both more like medium but I wasn't going to create a third par 4 category since I already cheated.
Tim, I always find 4 and 13 to be fascinating complementary par 4s at Pacific Dunes. One or the other is always dead into the teeth of the wind, the other straight downwind.
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I'm not sure there is enough yardage distance between 2 and 13 at Pacific Dunes for me to distinguish one as short and one as long. They are probably both more like medium but I wasn't going to create a third par 4 category since I already cheated.
Tim:
The 2nd at Pacific is 370 yards from all the way back ... the 13th is 444. They never use the back tee or even the next-to-back tee on the 13th hole during the summer months, they always have that hole playing from up at 380 yards, which is why you think they're too similar.
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Tom - 2 and 13, even when the yardages are playing compacted with less difference always play very different for me which is why I included them in the two different lists. 2 plays more like a longish short par 4 and 13 plays like a shortish long par 4, at least for me in the summer wind. 13 is more aesthetically pleasing and one of my favorites, but I think I actually prefer 2, which is one of my short listers on a course full of favorites.
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I'm surprised that no one has picked a hole from Lost Dunes yet, either. I've got several favorites there.
Tom,
You beat me to it. I've been following to see if anyone would mention Lost Dunes and was going to add my 2 cents this morning.
I may elect different holes than most from Lost Dunes, but my favorites are:
#1 - A short par 4 with a very generous fairway unless you're driver carries too far then you need to take the more aggressive line down the left side. What I've always loved about this hole is the green. Even with 75 yards in to this green, it's difficult to get the ball close to every hole location except the middle back. The green is a low profile, lay of the land roller coaster. Awesome.
#14 - Again, a short par 4 that just gets into the player's head right from the tee. Water all down the right side, the aggressive play is hugging the water which gives a much better angle into the green. Fairway is wider than it looks, but your eye looks right down the right side. Another great low profile hole. Like #1, nothing flashy (the view from the tee is great) but a blast.
#15 - So many options on this par 5. Be as aggressive as you can handle on the tee shot then make smart decisions up the fairway. Reachable in 2 for stronger hitters but lots of trouble around the green. Again, a low profile green that will shrug mediocre shots off. The green set on top of the hill is a wonderful example of restraint. No flashy bunkers or extravagant mounding. A fun hole with an incredible view from the green back down the fairway.
Ken
Lost Dunes does have a lot of excellent holes. There are a few more that I would add to the list.
#2 (par 4)
A tough hole that starts with a demanding tee shot. With the big dunes left and behind the green, it occupies what may be the best part of the property. The left side of the green is shielded from view by a dune and it makes the for a challenging approach from the left. To find the best angle to the green, the tee shot has to challenge the fairway bunkers on the right.
The par 5's at Lost Dunes offer some great variety. I love #15 too.
Hole #4 (par 5)
This is probably the hole that generates the most discussion, mainly because of the wild green. I know that I've never seen another green like it. The back tier sits atop about a 10 foot slope and the green is full of wild interior bumps and rolls. For more golfers, this is a 3-shot hole that can be played many different ways. The proper strategy is heavily dictated by the day's pin placement and wind direction. There is plenty of fairway room to set up an approach from many different angles and distances. It's a really fun golf hole.
** #7 at Ballyneal is still my favorite Doak hole and probably my favorite hole, period.
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P5: Ballyneal #13 What's that you say? This isn't a par 5? Not only is it a par 5 from the far back tee to the right of #12 green, it's the best par 5 at Ballyneal and probably the best par 5 of Renaissance's that I've seen. The carry isn't as crazy as it seems at around 190 from the back. Once on the fairway, most golfers will be left with a 230-260 yd shot to a green that is partially hidden by a small dune with a bunker in its face. If the pin is tucked behind that dune, you have no chance at getting there. If the pin is in the center or front, there is a nice halfpipe feature that can help funnel a low slinging shot towards the hole. But beware, the isn't a ton of room in front between the dune and the bunker complex on the left for a miss short, and a miss right of centerline will leave a third shot almost completely blind to the green. The green isn't the toughest to putt at Ballyneal, but has been confusing to myself and many playing partners in the past. I still have no idea where a putt above the hole putting to the front of the green is going to break. The caddies don't either.
This is one that I didn't expect to see as a "best par 5." On my last visit, we played this from the front tees and our group had a couple 2-putt birdies, a bogey and a double. It's not a bad short par-4 either.
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P5: Ballyneal #13 What's that you say? This isn't a par 5? Not only is it a par 5 from the far back tee to the right of #12 green, it's the best par 5 at Ballyneal and probably the best par 5 of Renaissance's that I've seen. The carry isn't as crazy as it seems at around 190 from the back. Once on the fairway, most golfers will be left with a 230-260 yd shot to a green that is partially hidden by a small dune with a bunker in its face. If the pin is tucked behind that dune, you have no chance at getting there. If the pin is in the center or front, there is a nice halfpipe feature that can help funnel a low slinging shot towards the hole. But beware, the isn't a ton of room in front between the dune and the bunker complex on the left for a miss short, and a miss right of centerline will leave a third shot almost completely blind to the green. The green isn't the toughest to putt at Ballyneal, but has been confusing to myself and many playing partners in the past. I still have no idea where a putt above the hole putting to the front of the green is going to break. The caddies don't either.
This is one that I didn't expect to see as a "best par 5." On my last visit, we played this from the front tees and our group had a couple 2-putt birdies, a bogey and a double. It's not a bad short par-4 either.
Brian,
When played from as far back as possible, I think #13 is a better par 5 than #4 or #16 based on the second shot. The hardest shot to design for in all of golf may be the second shot on a par 5 and from 250+yds, the second at 13 is very, very good. #8 at Ballyneal may be as good a par 5 as #13, but I don't think it's as cut and dried as folks around here might think.
With all of that said, #8 and #13 (at its longest) are better par 5's than any others I've played from Renaissance.
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Par3s:
11 at Pacific Dunes
7 at Barnbougle
6 at Cape Kidnappers
2 at Old Macdonald
Par 4s - short
6 at Pacific Dunes
7 at Ballyneal
4 at Barnbougle
16 at Pacific Dunes
Par 4s - long
13 at Pacific Dunes
16 at Old Macdonald
16 at Rock Creek
18 at Stone Eagle
Par 5s
17 at Old Macdonald
10 at Rock Creek
8 at Ballyneal
15 at Cape Kidnappers
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13th at Pacific is Tom's Foxy.
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I'm surprised that no one has picked a hole from Lost Dunes yet, either. I've got several favorites there.
Okay Tom, I'll bite.
LD - Best stretch, 2-4 (a 4,3,and 5). I feel holes need to be taken in context with what preceeds and follows. A stellar hole that is bookended by a couple duds doesn't quite measure up.
Also liked 7 & 9. On the back, 13,15 (and 17&18 - although unflashy, 2 very solid 4's).
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13th at Pacific is Tom's Foxy.
Steve, a little curious what you think the two holes have in common other than the distance?
To me #13 at Pacific Dunes is two long whacks up a reasonably smooth fairway to a large, not terribly interesting green. There's a lot of great scenery left and right, but not really a lot of strategy. Hit is straight and far.
Foxy at Dornoch has a ton of broken ground and rough on the line of instinct and an elevated green that requires a lot of thought and short game skill to negotiate to make a par.
Both good holes, Foxy much more difficult.
If I had to compare a Pacific Dunes hole to Foxy, I'd probably be thinking more about #7 with all that trouble out front.
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Bill,
These are the similarities with the two holes:
-distance
-both favor a draw off the tee
-both favor a shot that runs towards the hole due to wind and firmness of surface
-but the main reason is that both are very natural holes. A golf hole was just waiting to be cut and seeded without the need for a dozer (though Tom would correct me if I'm mistaken)
Interesting your thoughts. I think 13 at Pac is much more difficult. Hard as Foxy is, I seldom make more than 5. 13 I'll take five every time. 7 at Dornoch is ridiculously easy compared to 13 at Pac (to me) but I've played Dornoch a lot of times and Pacific only 6 times over 9 years.
IMO the two places to miss your second at Foxy is long and right or short and left. Almost anywhere the flag is, you can give yourself a par putt. Not many easy hole locations due to shape, size and weird undulations.
I hope you and your family had a nice Christmas.
Steve
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Bill,
These are the similarities with the two holes:
-distance
-both favor a draw off the tee
-both favor a shot that runs towards the hole due to wind and firmness of surface
-but the main reason is that both are very natural holes. A golf hole was just waiting to be cut and seeded without the need for a dozer (though Tom would correct me if I'm mistaken)
Interesting your thoughts. I think 13 at Pac is much more difficult. Hard as Foxy is, I seldom make more than 5. 13 I'll take five every time. 7 at Dornoch is ridiculously easy compared to 13 at Pac (to me) but I've played Dornoch a lot of times and Pacific only 6 times over 9 years.
IMO the two places to miss your second at Foxy is long and right or short and left. Almost anywhere the flag is, you can give yourself a par putt. Not many easy hole locations due to shape, size and weird undulations.
I hope you and your family had a nice Christmas.
Steve
I was talking about #7 at Pacific Dunes as Doak's "Foxy" because of all the broken ground out in front, like "Foxy" in that respect.
I can't conceive of playing a running second on Foxy across all that broken ground and rough, except to a way far left pin. In my three plays I hit my second hole high out left in the fairway and pitched on every time. Made a four and two fives, very happily!
Very nice Christmas thanks. Happy New Year!
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13th at Pacific is Tom's Foxy.
Actually, the green site of the 15th hole at Pacific Dunes reminded me of Foxy at Royal Dornoch from the moment I first saw it on the plan, when it was still too covered in gorse to get a good sense of it. It was much higher originally than it is now; we cut it down to a height where you could try to bounce in a long second shot, although the angle of the green is not as severe (shallow) as at Dornoch.
And to Bill: the little dunes on the approach to #7 at Pacific are all untouched, but the green actually required some significant shaping work to make it playable.
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I am going to pick just one hole...13 at Pacific Dunes..which I think is one of the best ten par four holes anywhere in the world..everything about the hole is perfect to my eye...love the approach into the green, the green complex itself and the great look it gives you off the tee.
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I would like to suggest another thread for TD's best holes prior to PD. (Rawls Course was after PD? right?) Where would they be? Stonewall? Lost Dunes? High Pointe?
I know Beechtree got some play prior to NLE. No memorable or very good or even good holes there? Not enough play there??
Is there a good hole at Charlotte Golf Links? Like Riverfront, insufficient play, to render an opinion? Or do these course come with too many warning labels (or unfortunate contraints)?
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I would like to suggest another thread for TD's best holes prior to PD. (Rawls Course was after PD? right?) Where would they be? Stonewall? Lost Dunes? High Pointe?
I know Beechtree got some play prior to NLE. No memorable or very good or even good holes there? Not enough play there??
Is there a good hole at Charlotte Golf Links? Like Riverfront, insufficient play, to render an opinion? Or do these course come with too many warning labels (or unfortunate contraints)?
The best hole at Beechtree was probably the par-4 14th. I don't know if anything at Charlotte Golf Links would have made the list or not. High Pointe, Black Forest, Stonewall, Apache Stronghold and Lost Dunes would have been the stalwarts, each contributing multiple holes. Quail Crossing might have placed one hole, the par-4 12th.
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I liked #3 at Beechtree best - short par 4 with a green that falls away
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Of the 8 Doaks I've played (PD, OM, StAB, BD, BN, CG, LD, HP), here are my (current) two favorites by hole number:
1. Ballyneal (4) St. Andrew's Beach (4)
2. Pac Dunes (4) Ballyneal (4)
3. Old Mac (4) Pac Dunes (5)
4. Barnbougle (4) Lost Dunes (5)
5. St. Andrew's Beach (4) Old Mac (3)
6. Pac Dunes (4) Barnbougle (4)
7. Ballyneal (4) Barnbougle (3)
8. Ballyneal (5) St. Andrew's Beach (4)
9. Barnbougle (4) Old Mac (4)
10. Ballyneal (4) Barnbougle (4)
11. Pac Dunes (3) High Pointe (3)
12. Barnbougle (4) Ballyneal (4)
13. Pac Dunes (4) Barnbougle (3)
14. Pac Dunes (3) Ballyneal (4)
15. Barnbougle (4) Ballyneal (3)
16. Ballyneal (5) Old Mac (4)
17. Ballyneal (4) Barnbougle (4)
18. Barnbougle (4) Old Mac (5)
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Was anyone really impressed by 13 at Barnbougle or High Point? I thought that those holes might get some love.
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Wade
I think at least three Aussies who have commented on the thread rate # 13 Barnbougle that and also # 7
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Best par 3 - #17 Rock Creek
Best par 4 - #7 Rock Creek/#13 Pac Dunes/#7 Ballyneal (too close to call)
Best par 5 - #10 Rock Creek/#8 Ballyneal
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Played: BD, CK, StAB, BN, PD, OM - favorites this month are...
KP: sorry you didn't get to see the real Ballyneal underneath all that snow.
Almost every hole mentioned below have internal undulations and contours throughout the green complexes that add a layer of skill and fun to all of these great holes.
Par 3:
7 Barnbougle - short is better, more decisions required on the tee, more often the golfer is tempted to try a shot they may not normally play, left is DEAD, short is a reasonable miss and setting is beautiful;
13 Barnbougle - so many different pin positions on this most fun of golf greens, requiring all sorts of different shots, and many different ways to get it close, and then even if you don't get it close, getting into to the hole is great fun as well, sits perfectly into the Dune behind;
11 Pac Dunes for ocean/cliff short and treacherous and 3 Ballyneal for a great little fun hole on a 90 degree turn that seems to fit just right into the routing and you just know that something special is waiting on the other side of those dunes...
Wind depending...
Short Par 4:
7 Ballyneal; just a super short par 4, with a few decisions to made on the tee, but the green is very special, and I liked the opportunity to glimpse where the flag is walking down 4. Again fits nicely into the flow of holes.
2 St Andrews Beach: again , multiple club choice and shot decision off the tee, troubling mound short of green, nice bunkering as KP said - I like the trench coffin type bunker at the back, and the wilder sand and flora short left.
4 Barnbougle; Just one of the best looking short par 4's I have seen, with fun shots to be had everywhere, a high road and a low road, and a dell green and easily the highest and steepest bunker face ever seen.
Longer Par 4:
15 Barnbougle- not super long, but is often into the breeze, one of my favorite approach shots on any course. Trouble to be found all around.
7 Old Mac - Ocean, again another favorite approach shot, cool bunker over the back, and the view...
17 Barnbougle/4 Pac Dunes- again, both not overly long, depending on the prevailing, but fun and challenging tee shots, both heavily affecting by large bodies of water! Cool green sites also, 17 BD can bite very hard at the pointy end, especially in a tight match and a tricky front pin.
Par 5:
8 Ballyneal - super looking, excellent use of cross bunkering, it feels like a figure 8, and then the green is wild and can turn eagle opportunities into bogies in a flash, just seems to fit so nicely into the chop hills, and I like that you can see the green and flag from the tee on a par five.
15 Cape Kidnappers - never have I had such fear of hitting or spraying a shot either direction off the entire length of the hole, 140m drop off the left and 20m to the right, to a green perched on the fingernail of a cliff edge, as dramatic as you can get, and the only time I will ever enjoy play a hole that is 549-594yards long (that may be meters!)
4 & 16 Ballyneal - loved both of these holes, for different reasons, and didn't want to leave either out, 4 just to unveil it all before you, and then challenges the entire length of the hole to an exciting green. And 16, a tee shot where position is key to set up a short cut across the chop hills to the green in two, maybe one of my favorite approach (2nd) shots on a Renaissance P5
Opening hole:
Cape Kidnappers: downhill reverse 's' shaped hole with interesting shots required and not what you expect from the cliff edged ocean views of CK, nice little cluster of bunkers green side, and a rally great way to begin a round with it all layer before you.
Old Macdonald: tons of room off the tee for an opening tee shot, but get the focus working early for the wonderful double plateau green.
Closing hole:
St Andrews Beach - raised tee, to a deceiving set of bunkering, and what seems like a ton of room, but position is key to get to some of the interesting pins of this finishing green snuggled into the ridge line, great wide green and excellent bunkers...pity about the long haul up the hill home.
Old Macdonald - seemingly wide fairway to a massive punch bowl green site, a perfect finish for mine, no bunkers, just some good chipping and putting to finsh the round off.
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par 5's .... Having played Beechtree (nle), OM, & PD and live 10 minutes from Riverfront, the 14th at Riverfront is a better hole than any of the Beechtree trio of 5 pars does not come far behind any at Bandon.
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Lots of great holes nominated, but I would add Stone Eagle #18 as one of his best par 4's. Excellent risk/reward tee shot and a very demanding uphill second shot. Perhaps the best par 4 1/2 hole by Tom. I remember hitting and excellent drive and a career 5 wood to reach the green in two.
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee169/wcb323/Stone%20Eagle/StoneE18thtee.jpg)
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee169/wcb323/Stone%20Eagle/StoneE15.jpg)
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While I agree with most of the holes nominated at Pac Dunes, Lost Dunes, Old Mac and Ballyneal, one that hasn't been mentioned is #8 at Bahia de los Suenos. Great short 4 at 325 that plays into the prevailing wind off the bay with an arroyo angling across the fairway that one has to decide whether to try to carry and a very interesting green. There's also a hole at Legends Heathland with a very good elevated green that I liked a lot (18 I think).
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I thought I would resurrect this thread to see if anyone's opinions have changed overtime ie: seven years ? Plus to see if any new one's should be added ?
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Old Mac #3 is one of my favorite holes anywhere. 1-3 is such an amazing opening stretch.
Streamsong Blue #4 really stands out to me as well.
I guess I'm a sucker for the heroic elements.
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Since most holes have already been mentioned, I will list the most underrated holes at each course that I have played:
Pacific Dunes - #7 Just a wonderful, natural hole with a great green complex
Old Macdonald - #13 Maybe the best green complex at Old Mac and one of the most unique in his portfolio
Ballyneal - #16 The pass through the dunes makes for an incredible interesting 2nd shot; every shot matters on this par 5
Streamsong Blue - #2 Width before the recent width craze, yet still interesting, which width sometimes negates
Lost Dunes - #2 - was this the first modern Alps designed?
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My favorites TO PLAY were Dismal Red #9 and #18
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In terms of a 3 hole stretch, I don't think I have a more favorite TD set than 14-16 at Rock Creek.
All par 4s and all excellent...but yet play so different with varying yardages, shot requirements, and ways to play em!
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In terms of a 3 hole stretch, I don't think I have a more favorite TD set than 14-16 at Rock Creek.
All par 4s and all excellent...but yet play so different with varying yardages, shot requirements, and ways to play em!
Cart ride on 14 is really good ;D. But agree this is a wonderful stretch with 3 fantastic holes.
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In terms of a 3 hole stretch, I don't think I have a more favorite TD set than 14-16 at Rock Creek.
All par 4s and all excellent...but yet play so different with varying yardages, shot requirements, and ways to play em!
Cart ride on 14 is really good ;D . But agree this is a wonderful stretch with 3 fantastic holes.
I had forgot about that...I may have to dig up that pic for old times sake. :D
But yes, so many terrific stretches out there, 9-11, 3-5, I don't think I would ever tire of RCCC!
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Lost Dunes - #2 - was this the first modern Alps designed?
Didn't Pete Dye design a bunch in the 80s?
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I love 10 and 18 at Stonewall Old. I heard Tom speak about the Old, and those two holes were the only two that he really changed from the original Fazio routing I believe. He changed each to go in the opposite direction that Fazio laid out, and I think it was a brilliant move.
A lot of 18th holes climb uphill because club houses are placed in high points of the property. The 18th on the Old plays downhill, which makes it stand out amongst finishing holes.
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Streamsong Blue - #2 Width before the recent width craze, yet still interesting, which width sometimes negates
FINALLY.
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I think the most interesting hole on the Red course at Dismal River is the par 4 7th. It is anything but a conventional hole, in the spirit of say a Rye 13 or Silloth 13, particularly from the back tees and especially when the wind is crossing!
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Tara Iti number 3. Good par 4 with an amazing punchbowl green.
Tara Iti number 7. Short part 4 with a number of different ways to play it. My favourite hole on this course.
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I think Ash has the winner here.... 7 at Tara Iti. The most unique may be another #7, at Ballyneal.
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Not sure when this was written/updated but it comes direct from Renaissance Golf Design -
https://www.renaissancegolf.com/279/rgds-best-holes (https://www.renaissancegolf.com/279/rgds-best-holes)
Atb
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Thanks for revival of this one KP.
Last year I was lucky to have added Tara Iti to my group.
P3 - #17 -amazing hole around 150m as the shortest hole, bunkering, green contours, angle to the breeze. Love it.
Short P4 - #7 - agree with Ash, a great hole, challenging and offers loads of variety.
Med P4 - #1 - it is not quite drivable (for most), really great opening hole and again, the angles off the tee and into the raised benched green are memorable.
Long P4 - #3 (if I have to pick one) - for me, this hole is probably the one played in the largest variety of ways from the golfers....guessing.
P5 - toss up between #11 & #18 - at this stage, my preference is for the finishing hole, not long, but challenging to navigate your way to the really nice green site.
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Really nice suggestions Brett.
Agree with all of them.
So many holes to love at Tara Iti.
A wonderful opener. I loved 8 too!
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Streamsong Blue's seventeenth is one of my favourite par fives anywhere.
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TD:
I know this is a seven year old post from you, but I just saw it. I am very interested in what you like so much about #8 at PD.
I love PD - one of my favorite courses I've played - but I have always considered #8 to be the weakest hole on the course. Dead flat and super wide, you can really drive it anywhere you want without significantly improving or reducing your advantage on the approach. I guess the green site is kind of cool with the banking around it, but it also allows for mishits into the green to often funnel down to the putting surface. I find PD to be an extremely strategically interesting course - on pretty much every tee box you need to think hard about where you want to end up - but I find #8 to be the exception to this rule.
I don't mean this at all to be offensive, but rather to understand a little better what you like so much about this hole and what I am missing in my view of it.
Best,
Matt
What say you Tom Doak?
Which are your best (favorite) holes?
Pete:
Yes, I'm on record on our web site, but it's nice to see so many different holes nominated by others, and to hear the reasoning for the selections.
I've always told golf writers that I have two kinds of favorite holes.
The first kind are the holes like the 13th at Pacific Dunes, or the 8th at Ballyneal, or the soon-to-be 3rd at Dismal River. These were just laying there waiting for me to find them; but, once you've found them, there really isn't too much to do or to be proud of.
The other kind are holes like the 18th at Stonewall (Old course), or the 8th at Pacific Dunes, or the 7th at Ballyneal, where I didn't know exactly what we were going to do when we started building those courses. I'm really the proudest of holes like those, where after a long period of staring at them, something clicked in my brain and we wound up with something really good that I never expected.
I'm surprised that no one has picked a hole from Lost Dunes yet, either. I've got several favorites there.
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I have only seen one TD course, but I reckon the RC's 8th is an excellent hole despite the narrowed fairway.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4907/32231703468_2ffe3eb96b_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4907/32231703468_2ffe3eb96b_b.jpg)
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4881/46052925472_e409d286fb_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4881/46052925472_e409d286fb_b.jpg)
Ciao
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Hello,
My favorite is Streamsong 16th.
I played two rounds on the blue and I had to hit a 3 wood for both rounds and I especially like to play left and see the ball coming back on the green !
;)
(I really like to hit a driver, 3wood or 5 woods towards a flag , and of course to design such holes...)
NJ
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Hello,
My favorite is Streamsong 16th.
I played two rounds on the blue and I had to hit a 3 wood for both rounds and I especially like to play left and see the ball coming back on the green !
;)
(I really like to hit a driver, 3wood or 5 woods towards a flag , and of course to design such holes...)
NJ
Love that this thread has illuminated two of the most unappreciated holes at Streamsong.
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The Loop Red # 2 - love how the green site sits and how if you are at all right of the line to the green your approach is soo much tougher.
Streamsong Blue # 5 - sucker for a well designed short par 3 and it's about as good as it gets w/ the knob front, short bunker / drop off left and that back right bowl. Could play that hole forever. Also really liked #6.
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The 7th at Ballyneal (aka E green). Can't think of a hole that offers you more variety off the tee box that ends with one of the most diabolical green complexes out there... Back right pin location surely will lead to a double if you try and go for it!
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TD:
I know this is a seven year old post from you, but I just saw it. I am very interested in what you like so much about #8 at PD.
I love PD - one of my favorite courses I've played - but I have always considered #8 to be the weakest hole on the course. Dead flat and super wide, you can really drive it anywhere you want without significantly improving or reducing your advantage on the approach. I guess the green site is kind of cool with the banking around it, but it also allows for mishits into the green to often funnel down to the putting surface. I find PD to be an extremely strategically interesting course - on pretty much every tee box you need to think hard about where you want to end up - but I find #8 to be the exception to this rule.
I don't mean this at all to be offensive, but rather to understand a little better what you like so much about this hole and what I am missing in my view of it.
Best,
Matt
Some of the more memorable holes I've built which fall into the "flash of inspiration" category (where I wasn't sure at first how they would turn out, but then made a key decision later) include a lot of my best holes
High Pointe 13
Stonewall Old 18
Ballyneal 7
Barnbougle 4
Pacific Dunes 8
Old Mac 7 & 8
These are not all "original" ideas - for example the 7th at Ballyneal is loosely based on the 7th at Crystal Downs. But it wasn't planned that way; I had to stare at the green site for several days before I realized that would be the perfect solution for it.
Garland: I chose the 8th because I had no idea what to create there at the start of construction and then the idea for it came in a flash later on. I know most people wouldn't single out that as one of the best holes, though I am personally quite fond of it.
By contrast, #7 was pretty obvious once we found the mounded features in front of the green, and #9 was more of a necessity, the only reasonable way I saw to get to #10 tee.
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Lost Dunes - #2 - was this the first modern Alps designed?
Didn't Pete Dye design a bunch in the 80s?
Is this considered an Alps? I only played it once with the pin on the back right, so the left mound didn't come into play. Is the left side of that green not accessible from the fairway?
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Lost Dunes - #2 - was this the first modern Alps designed?
Didn't Pete Dye design a bunch in the 80s?
Is this considered an Alps? I only played it once with the pin on the back right, so the left mound didn't come into play. Is the left side of that green not accessible from the fairway?
I don't think of it as an Alps hole at all, but I don't normally try to build templates, anyway. If you want to think of it in template form, the approach actually plays more like the Road Hole, with the mound taking the place of the Road bunker. Playing justvto the entrance on the right is generally better than taking on the left side of the green, unless you've hit a hell of a drive.
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If memory serves me right, Stevinson Ranch (now NLE), where they held one of the first KPs had a pretty good Alps hole. I only played it once before joining here, but distinctly remember it for its uniqueness.
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RGD Web Site still has Riverfront #4 as a 'best' par 3 hole .... been there a long time.
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Streamsong Blue #4 - reminded me of #16 at Merion.