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GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Garland Bayley on November 21, 2011, 07:35:10 PM

Title: Name the architect
Post by: Garland Bayley on November 21, 2011, 07:35:10 PM
Drivable par 4. Who's the architect?

(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j282/bokuhan_hagaromo/unknown265.jpg)
Title: Re: Name the architect
Post by: Will Lozier on November 21, 2011, 08:08:49 PM
Garland,

I don't think I care! ??? 

Cheers
Title: Re: Name the architect
Post by: Garland Bayley on November 21, 2011, 08:17:01 PM
Will,

I think you should care. The architect has lots of ardent supporters here.

Perhaps I should detail the hole a little more. The hole is fairly forgiving for high handicappers as there is lots of room left to drive into and open up an angle into the green. Hopefully, the picture clearly depicts that the more you try to bite off and fail, the more you are penalized.
Title: Re: Name the architect
Post by: Sam Morrow on November 21, 2011, 08:24:13 PM
Where is the course located?
Title: Re: Name the architect
Post by: Jim Jackson on November 21, 2011, 08:29:04 PM
Is it Coore's Rockport CC?
Title: Re: Name the architect
Post by: Sam Morrow on November 21, 2011, 08:30:43 PM
Is it Coore's Rockport CC?

I don't remember that or any holes that were so open.
Title: Re: Name the architect
Post by: Mark Saltzman on November 21, 2011, 08:37:43 PM
Nicklaus?
Title: Re: Name the architect
Post by: Michael Goldstein on November 21, 2011, 08:42:50 PM
From what I can gather from one picture, there is a hole very similar to this at the Pete Dye inspired Mission Hills course at Hainan. 
Title: Re: Name the architect
Post by: Sam Morrow on November 21, 2011, 08:46:35 PM
Is it Schmidt and Curley?
Title: Re: Name the architect
Post by: Jeff Evagues on November 21, 2011, 08:51:45 PM
I always thought Weiskopf's specialty was the driveable par 4. 
Title: Re: Name the architect
Post by: Sam Morrow on November 21, 2011, 08:52:31 PM
I always thought Weiskopf's specialty was the driveable par 4. 

I like his stuff but he doesn't get much mention on here.
Title: Re: Name the architect
Post by: Will Lozier on November 21, 2011, 08:52:45 PM
Will,

I think you should care. The architect has lots of ardent supporters here.

Perhaps I should detail the hole a little more. The hole is fairly forgiving for high handicappers as there is lots of room left to drive into and open up an angle into the green. Hopefully, the picture clearly depicts that the more you try to bite off and fail, the more you are penalized.


Garland,

Knowing your good taste, I knew it had to have some architectural merit...but that pic just isn't attractive nor does it make the hole look at all interesting.  
Title: Re: Name the architect
Post by: Garland Bayley on November 21, 2011, 08:58:28 PM
Will,

I think you should care. The architect has lots of ardent supporters here.

Perhaps I should detail the hole a little more. The hole is fairly forgiving for high handicappers as there is lots of room left to drive into and open up an angle into the green. Hopefully, the picture clearly depicts that the more you try to bite off and fail, the more you are penalized.


Garland,

Knowing your good taste, I knew it had to have excellent designer and some architectural merit...but that pic just isn't attractive nor does it make the hole look at all interesting.  I'll have to check out the website.  As a former Bandon caddie who LOVES Trails, I am a huge Crenshaw/Coore fan for the record.

Cheers

???

I certainly didn't claim it had an "excellent designer and some architectural merit". I simple wrote that the architect had ardent supporters.

And who says I have good taste? I have a particular taste. No ponds! ;)
Title: Re: Name the architect
Post by: Garland Bayley on November 21, 2011, 08:59:59 PM
All suggested architects are incorrect so far.

Hint:
I have only played golf west of the Mississippi River (if we agree to ignore Addis Abeba CC).
Title: Re: Name the architect
Post by: Garland Bayley on November 21, 2011, 09:04:17 PM
4th hole par 3 double green with 1st hole portion of green in the background.

(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j282/bokuhan_hagaromo/unknown232.jpg)
Title: Re: Name the architect
Post by: Will Lozier on November 21, 2011, 09:05:56 PM
???

I certainly didn't claim it had an "excellent designer and some architectural merit". I simple wrote that the architect had ardent supporters.

And who says I have good taste? I have a particular taste. No ponds! ;)

[/quote]

Sorry Garland, I thought the Coore reply was from you and was the answer!!!!!!!  I've modified my reply to you accordingly - magically traveling back in time!  Do I need to modify my observation about your taste? ;)
Title: Re: Name the architect
Post by: Garland Bayley on November 21, 2011, 10:38:09 PM
Quote
???

I certainly didn't claim it had an "excellent designer and some architectural merit". I simple wrote that the architect had ardent supporters.

And who says I have good taste? I have a particular taste. No ponds! ;)


Sorry Garland, I thought the Coore reply was from you and was the answer!!!!!!!  I've modified my reply to you accordingly - magically traveling back in time!  Do I need to modify my observation about your taste? ;)

Is there a pond on Bandon Trails? ;)
Title: Re: Name the architect
Post by: Garland Bayley on November 21, 2011, 10:41:46 PM
From what I can gather from one picture, there is a hole very similar to this at the Pete Dye inspired Mission Hills course at Hainan. 

Hainan would certainly be west of the Mississippi.
;)
Title: Re: Name the architect
Post by: Garland Bayley on November 21, 2011, 10:49:06 PM
The architect features this par 3 green on his website.

(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j282/bokuhan_hagaromo/unknown260.jpg)
Title: Re: Name the architect
Post by: Bill_McBride on November 21, 2011, 11:09:26 PM
Is that another double green with the 18th on the left and the 9th on the right, wrapped around the lake?

If so, it's a dead ringer for Grand  Cypress in Orlando, a Nicklaus design known for its punitive nature.  

But could be one of the Dyes.  

*****

Whoops, should have read the OP a bit more carefully!
Title: Re: Name the architect
Post by: Sam Morrow on November 21, 2011, 11:24:55 PM
Is it a John Fought course?
Title: Re: Name the architect
Post by: Sean Leary on November 21, 2011, 11:39:45 PM
Jim Engh
Title: Re: Name the architect
Post by: Garland Bayley on November 21, 2011, 11:50:05 PM
Not a Dye, not a Fought.

Although I lied about only playing west of the Mississippi since St. Paul and suburbs are east of the Mississippi, I can also say I have not played in Iowa, Missouri, Arkansas, Nebraska, Kansas, Oklahoma, and Texas. Nor, have I played in Wyoming, Colorado, Nevada, or Arizona.
Title: Re: Name the architect
Post by: Garland Bayley on November 21, 2011, 11:51:13 PM
Sean gets it. Sean, have you played the course?
Title: Re: Name the architect
Post by: Sam Morrow on November 21, 2011, 11:52:01 PM
Then what course is it?
Title: Re: Name the architect
Post by: Sean Leary on November 21, 2011, 11:53:16 PM
No I have not. It was his first solo effort, right? I think it was a redo of an existing course.

Is it decent?
Title: Re: Name the architect
Post by: Garland Bayley on November 21, 2011, 11:57:59 PM
If you don't have a mountain to drive a cart up to a raised tee on, then you build one large enough to put only a tee on top of, then you build a smaller mountain in front of it (seen in the right of the picture) large enough to put a forward tee on, ...

(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j282/bokuhan_hagaromo/unknown249.jpg)
Title: Re: Name the architect
Post by: Garland Bayley on November 21, 2011, 11:59:52 PM
It's Columbia Point. his first. After playing, I wondered how he ever got another job. Maybe people in Colorado liked the mountains he built.

I played with two people who had their non-playing spouses along. They knew I was documenting the course for posting. At one point, one of the spouses said to me, "you can't really like this course can you?" I never could bring myself to do the work to post a photo tour of the course.
Title: Re: Name the architect
Post by: Emile Bonfiglio on November 22, 2011, 12:34:57 AM
I thought I got the whiff of Kennewick while looking at those pics... Nice Course.
Title: Re: Name the architect
Post by: Alex Lagowitz on November 22, 2011, 08:49:28 AM
I'm 100% sure that the double green with the lake is courtesy of the bear
Grand Cypress North/South
Title: Re: Name the architect
Post by: Andy Troeger on November 22, 2011, 10:53:50 AM
The photos made me think of Engh, but the comment about the photo being featured on his website threw me off. I found it now, but its taken from the opposite angle and is far more flattering! Its also not that easy to find, unless you are specifically looking for it!The rock wall/water/bunkers concept was used at Sanctuary as well and perhaps another of his early courses. I'm glad he stopped using it. The squiggly green shape looks Engh-like, and the bunkering is a bit similar to Red Hawk Ridge prior to the muscle-bunker look.

Looked at the website for the course...it looks much more Engh-like than Garland's tester photo, but certainly less appealing than probably any of his other courses. The mounding looks very exaggerated to separate holes. Doesn't look like he had much to work with in terms of features either.

Garland, I hope you didn't go too far out of your way to see this one! I don't think you'd be much of an Engh fan even if you saw his best stuff.
Title: Re: Name the architect
Post by: Garland Bayley on November 22, 2011, 11:00:25 AM


Garland, I hope you didn't go too far out of your way to see this one! I don't think you'd be much of an Engh fan even if you saw his best stuff.

It was right on the way coming back from Wine Valley and Palouse Ridge.

So, you can imagine the disappointment.

Next time I'll try Horn Rapids. A member at my club raved about the quirk there. Anyone play it?
Title: Re: Name the architect
Post by: Sean Leary on November 22, 2011, 11:14:13 AM
GB,

I have played it buts its been a while. Don't remember much about other than its a desert style course. Meadow Springs in the Tri Cities is better.
Title: Re: Name the architect
Post by: Melvyn Morrow on November 22, 2011, 11:42:36 AM

Garland

That par 3 by the clubhouse and lake with that shallow bunker should not be something that any designer should be proud of. It evokes all that is amiss with golf today, shallow bunkers Greens that allow the ball to run back onto the Green and that lake or pond waiting to kill the game for the less than accurate player. Tell me where is the challenge; let alone obtaining the satisfaction of playing such a Green.

Gentlemen, this is modern golf at its most destructive, if it does not kill your game it will aid your shots be they bunker or an overshoot. Where is the test the challenge of playing the course and the Hole?

Of course I will give you it looks nice and interesting but once you open your golfing eyes you see a tired ill thought out Green that is there to assist the player, but that’s not the way the game is played. The designer has offered up zero in the difficult, testing or enjoyable that is at the heart of the game.

Sorry, Garland I would not want to know the designer, as IMHO he should have known better and so should the Club, its Committee and its Members. Apart from that it looks like a nice environment to go riding over.

Melvyn   

PS Is that stone the Headstone for the late designer confirming depth of remains and the years BC re his date of birth/demise.


Title: Re: Name the architect
Post by: John Kavanaugh on November 22, 2011, 11:46:41 AM
4th hole par 3 double green with 1st hole portion of green in the background.

(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j282/bokuhan_hagaromo/unknown232.jpg)


In observing the divot patterns and general appearance of the golfers pictured I would say they are getting far more quality than they deserve.
Title: Re: Name the architect
Post by: Garland Bayley on November 22, 2011, 12:08:52 PM

...
Sorry, Garland I would not want to know the designer, as IMHO he should have known better and so should the Club, its Committee and its Members. Apart from that it looks like a nice environment to go riding over.
...

But, would you not want to know the designer so that you would be aware when he come up again, as he is not buried below the 9th tee marker?
Title: Re: Name the architect
Post by: Garland Bayley on November 22, 2011, 12:10:59 PM
4th hole par 3 double green with 1st hole portion of green in the background.

(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j282/bokuhan_hagaromo/unknown232.jpg)


In observing the divot patterns and general appearance of the golfers pictured I would say they are getting far more quality than they deserve.

Hmmmmmmmmmm, seems to be I recall you relating a story about your son thinking you get more quality than you deserve.

Looks like I have found just the perfect new home club for you.
Title: Re: Name the architect
Post by: Kalen Braley on November 22, 2011, 07:26:46 PM
I can spot some Engh themes in the aerial.  Its right next to the water to boot!!  ;D


(http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q234/kbjames_70/golf/Columbia_Point.jpg)