Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Ian Dalzell on November 19, 2011, 08:18:58 AM
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Not entirely sure how to add a link to this post, but the link below takes you to a series of photos of the Trump Scotland project taken by a dear friend of mine, Brian Morgan. Famous for his kilt on Sunday's at the Majors, Brian has several key shots in golf history in his library, including Nicklaus and Watson coming off Turnberry's 18th green in the Duel in the Sun and Jack's historic 6th Green jacket eagle putt on 15 and the famous photo of the 1st ever Skins Game in 1983 at Desert Highlands. Here is the link - what do you think of the course?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMcn7ZAx3lY&feature=email
Sincerely,
Ian
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Thanks Ian. Some great looking green sites. I would certainly enjoy t o play it based on those pictures. The dunes are quite striking with their conical shapes. Gives it quite a distinctive look. Makes me think of North-west Ireland/Doonbeg more than Scottish or English links.
Philip
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It is the most incredible golf course ever built. I don't think there is a finer course anywhere on Earth. I think anyone that even sets foot on this course will realize how truly awesome it is and how much better it is compared to any other course know to man. -DT
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That landscape is insane.
Does anyone else think the architecture appears to be kind of oddly in between American-style and traditional links? I can't quite put my finger on it.
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It looks interesting... hard to figure out what the holes are
when is it going to open ?
will there be an anti-trump reaction that will prevent the course to be judge for what it is... that is the question
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Thanks Ian, hope all is well my friend.
If this golf course was not associated with Trump I believe it would be getting much more positive attention.
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Looks pretty damn sweet to me...
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It's impossible to determine how the course would be received without the Trump name. Mr. Trump makes sure of that.
WW
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Is this really a project he owns or did he just sell the rights to use his name in our branded society. I wonder becasue he ususally works with Tommy Fazio and I know a gorup in Brazil that paid a million for his name association and some residencial towers in Panama that did the same. Looks interesting without a doubt but what happenes on a windy day or if your an average golfer on a non windy day? Is there any recuperation from that rough, if there is not, than it looks to me like a, gota play it one time but dropping big bucks for a residential investment and playing frequently will be a tough sale. What a great job preserving the natural areas.
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Agreed, the dunes remind me of Doonbeg. I wonder if people will be able to seperate the course from Trump's name when judging it.
Doonbeg, which I really enjoyed, had a distinct American feel about the place. The amenities were just too new and too perfect. I wonder if Trump International (awful name) will feel the same way.
With that said, the course looks like a good place to spend a day playing golf.
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That landscape is insane.
Does anyone else think the architecture appears to be kind of oddly in between American-style and traditional links? I can't quite put my finger on it.
I think the rectangular teeing grounds have much to do with this perception. A few holes look rather rather drastically over-bunkered as well.
Certainly the landscape is spectacular, and I'm guessing the course will be at least somewhat compelling.
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From these pictures, I'd love to play this course. Looks outstanding.
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Matt
I agree totally, it does look a wee bit like a modern design masquerading as a traditional links. For instance, the use of lateral water hazards, no difference between a lake and a burn/stream running into the sea, when your in it your in it. Same with the apparent "landing zones".
Plenty of comments on here about lost balls and those making them could well be right but I don't think the width is the problem, it looks plenty wide enough to me, and neither do I think its the rough because you get that on any links but looking at those photos and wonder if most players will make the "landing areas" zones when playing into a good going breeze. The thing about links holes is that for instance on a 500 yard hole you might get home with a drive and wedge one day and the next it might be a drive, a 3 wood, a 3 wood....and then a wedge. How do you plan landing areas for that ? You can't, that's the beauty of playing links golf IMO.
Randy
I hope you were being facetious with that last comment. They've basically obliterated a rare beautiful landscape in building the course.
Niall
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I agree, Kyle. The rectangular tee boxes really seem out of place.
WW
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Wade -
Rectangular tee boxes are commonplace in Scotland.
DT
tcmnav@aol.com
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Will the real Trump International Golf Links please identify itself. ;)
Apparently the different photos we are seeing on this web site have been taken with significantly different focal lengths. Therefore, the course takes a somewhat different persona each time we see it. This set is particularly attractive.
Thanks Ian.
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I'm not drinking the kool aid until I play it.
I agree that the tee boxes are out of place for this golf course. I would have like to see a more free form tee and it seems like many are built up or elevated.
I can also see a lot of mounds that are obviously man made. It looks very symmetrical in spots?
There was a lot of build up like this for Doonbeg and look where that ranks.
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Wade -
Rectangular tee boxes are commonplace in Scotland.
DT
tcmnav@aol.com
Quite true, but I still think they look out of place in these pictures (as well as some of the courses I played in Scotland), given the massive, amorphic dunes between the holes. Fortunately, it's mainly an aesthetic issue, as opposed to one of playability.
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Going only off these pictures, it looks like they did a lot of flattening in some of the fairways/surrounds, which may be part of what people are reacting to.
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DT:
You're correct. Still, there's something about them - maybe beyond the rectangular shape - that seems to stick out for some reason.
Is the course walking only?
WW
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The unusually sharp appearance of the tee boxes is probably due to their newness. I would imagine they will soften and blend with time.
Jon
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There is no denying the course looks interesting. I think there are some fake conical mounding, but I like it either way - they do mimic some of the larger dunes in the background. The square tees look a bit odd, but I think they will mellow over time, Perhaps when leveling off dunes for tees they should have left odd shapes so odd shapes would then be cut. I think one issue will be balls in the long grass up the dunes. It will be very easy to be five yards off line and be faced with a horrific shot. At Burnham we have some of the same issues with playability through high dunes. Its very difficult to keep the rough down up the slopes.
Ciao
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I think the playability of the native grasses just off the fairway will be managed over time through maintenance and just plain foot traffic. It certainly won't be as stark a contrast in a couple of years time as it is now 7 months before opening.
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Randy,
His real estate ventures differ from his golf operations, which he owns.
Why are some being so negative and judging the course before you've played it ?
The Chevy Camaro convertible is a great looking car....... but when you .....
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Pat,
Some of us obviously have a chip on our shoulders (and/or personal history) with regards to all things Trump that will prevent us from ever setting foot on the greatest links course in the world. Of course when you look up easy targets in the dictionary...
(http://i41.tinypic.com/2hfksuq.jpg)
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I think the playability of the native grasses just off the fairway will be managed over time through maintenance and just plain foot traffic. It certainly won't be as stark a contrast in a couple of years time as it is now 7 months before opening.
Ally
I hope you are correct, but I reckon foot traffic isn't going to be the answer. Every course I know with fairways running through high dunes suffers the same problem. Its not easy to create width with dunes constricting play and its not easy to use the scythe.
Ciao
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I'm with Patrick and Joel, on this, BECAUSE, until you play it, or walk it, how do you know what the routing is like?
It is interesting that not one bunker appears to be of the natural looking variety. Reminds me, in some pics, of the Fazio butcher job on the #4 at Pinehurst.
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It is interesting that not one bunker appears to be of the natural looking variety. ...
You were expecting a natural look?
I have to refer you to Jud's post.
(http://i41.tinypic.com/2hfksuq.jpg)
:D
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Going only off these pictures, it looks like they did a lot of flattening in some of the fairways/surrounds, which may be part of what people are reacting to.
CArl,
I've intentionally stayed out of this thread until now, because I may have been too opionated in the last thread.....but that's pretty much what jumped out at me when looking at this pics. While some holes seems to have a decent amount of undulation, many of them appear relatively flattish in relation to their surrounds. Hopefully this is just the camera which has a tendency to flatten things out.
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Going only off these pictures, it looks like they did a lot of flattening in some of the fairways/surrounds, which may be part of what people are reacting to.
CArl,
I've intentionally stayed out of this thread until now, because I may have been too opionated in the last thread.....but that's pretty much what jumped out at me when looking at this pics. While some holes seems to have a decent amount of undulation, many of them appear relatively flattish in relation to their surrounds. Hopefully this is just the camera which has a tendency to flatten things out.
Or it was flattish between the dunes to start with...
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I'm with Patrick and Joel, on this, BECAUSE, until you play it, or walk it, how do you know what the routing is like?
It is interesting that not one bunker appears to be of the natural looking variety. Reminds me, in some pics, of the Fazio butcher job on the #4 at Pinehurst.
Adam
I don't know if you were expecting or looking for the hairy lip style of bunkering that RCD is famous for and which has been the vogue on a lot of new courses for the last several years, if so I would suggest that the style here is more in keeping with the local vernacular.
Niall
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There are two things that strike me. One is that it can be difficult to judge the scale from photos. Some of the dunes may be extremely impressive. It is tough to judge their height, or the widths of the fairways. The second is the look of some of the greens. When you see courses like Barnbougle, Lost Farm, Bandon Dunes, Old Mac and Ballyneal the greens seem to lay on the fairway, or have a gradual rise from the fairway. A few of these greens have a bit of a built up look. It looks like the ground game may be out of play for a few of the holes, which may make it look a little more manufactured as opposed to just finding green sites and putting in flags. I don't think there is anything wrong with requiring that on some holes. I think it looks interesting. I also think a mediocre golfer may play it once and realize he is out of his league. I know The Donald will tell us that some people think it is the best course in the world, and others will slough it off. I would love to know the return rate. How many people come back more than once. That will tell me how good it is.
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Tom
Alternatively the return rate might just tell you how expensive it is !
As for a mediocre golfer, I really don't get that comment. Carnoustie is the hardest course I know but a 20 handicapper could get round it no problem. They probably wouldn't get anywhere near there handicap but they could still play the course.
Niall
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Niall,
This may be true for the 20 handicapper but would they have any fun? Some would say I am ok at this silly game we love but I dont 'enjoy' Carnoustie.
I loved Pine Valley but I know some 20 handicappers that may not be able to finish some of the holes there while truly enjoying it.
Its an interesting debate as many of courses we all give praise to actually go against what many on the site champion in terms of playability for all.
S
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I mentioned that it is difficult to tell the fairway widths from photos, but I can see a lot of balls being lost on those dunes by even an average golfer unaccustomed to playing in what may be some pretty good breezes. Combine the wind with the intimidation factor of the dunes and I can see a few sleeves of balls coming out. Maybe the dunes will cut down the breeze, but the grass on some of those dunes look like lost balls to me. I do like what I see. And I have talked to some good players who have been back to Pine Hill now that it is Trump Philly and they thought he did an excellent job there from the course to the clubhouse. I would not be shocked if his team did some good work on the International.
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Going only off these pictures, it looks like they did a lot of flattening in some of the fairways/surrounds, which may be part of what people are reacting to.
CArl,
I've intentionally stayed out of this thread until now, because I may have been too opionated in the last thread.....but that's pretty much what jumped out at me when looking at this pics. While some holes seems to have a decent amount of undulation, many of them appear relatively flattish in relation to their surrounds. Hopefully this is just the camera which has a tendency to flatten things out.
Or it was flattish between the dunes to start with...
Sean:
These are more than "flattish," they're bowling alley flat spaces, at least from the pics.
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Before:
(http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww199/alistermatheson/21102009008.jpg)
After:
(http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/cristianwillaert/trump14.jpg)
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Understanding that you can't really tell from photos, the course looks like a brute.
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I loved Pine Valley but there is no way a 20 handicapper could finish some of the holes there.
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My handicap is over 20. Why could I not "finish some of the holes there"?
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Before:
(http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww199/alistermatheson/21102009008.jpg)
After:
(http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/cristianwillaert/trump14.jpg)
That is WAY too severe to be left anything close to that for a fairway. With that narrow a of a fairway ( I am sure the pic makes it look narrower than it is), subtle undulations are going to be better IMO.
Also, looks to me like if the native is that sparse like in the bottom of your picture, that balls will be very easy to find..
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That is WAY too severe to be left anything close to that for a fairway. With that narrow a of a fairway ( I am sure the pic makes it look narrower than it is), subtle undulations are going to be better IMO.
Also, looks to me like if the native is that sparse like in the bottom of your picture, that balls will be very easy to find..
Those familiar have stated that the pic makes it look narrower than it is. Why is it WAY too severe? Reminds me of pics from Durban and Eastward Ho. I am guessing it is not even way too severe, at most a little too severe. ;)
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Garland,
Both courses have
much more room left and right that you see here on holes that have this much movement. Balls would be kicking into the native from the middle of the fairway.
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Sean,
This is a valley. The slopes are kicking towards the center.
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I've said it before but the problem won't be going left and right, it will be reaching the fairway. And I include for the low handicappers in that comment. Looking at that last photo, the carry distance looks as though it might be 150 yards plus which on an elevated tee with a good going breeze in you face will be a hell of a challenge.
Niall
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Also, looks to me like if the native is that sparse like in the bottom of your picture, that balls will be very easy to find..
The area you point out on that picture will be one of the many areas where they planted more marram grass to stabilise the dunes. They did that in alot of places, but the areas where they didn't and there was already marram grass will be far thicker, most of the site was made up of areas like this. I also doubt it will take long for the planted areas to become as thick as the other established areas. Finding balls in that stuff will be next to impossible.
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I loved Pine Valley but there is no way a 20 handicapper could finish some of the holes there.
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My handicap is over 20. Why could I not "finish some of the holes there"?
Garland- I have changed my post as you rightly jumped on a quickly typed and poorly worded post on my behalf.
I stand by what I say that if a high handicapper went there they could well think some of the holes near impossible due to the forced carries, therefore not have as much fun as a lower handicapper. Some would leave not really appreciating the course but that happens everywhere I suppose.
Thanks,
Simon
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I loved Pine Valley but there is no way a 20 handicapper could finish some of the holes there.
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My handicap is over 20. Why could I not "finish some of the holes there"?
Garland- I have changed my post as you rightly jumped on a quickly typed and poorly worded post on my behalf.
I stand by what I say that if a high handicapper went there they could well think some of the holes near impossible due to the forced carries, therefore not have as much fun as a lower handicapper. Some would leave not really appreciating the course but that happens everywhere I suppose.
Thanks,
Simon
Glad to be of assistance. Ponds are a killjoy for me. Maybe if I didn't use a ball retriever to fish balls out of ponds to replenish my supply, then they wouldn't try to return to what they assume to be their natural habitat.
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Before:
(http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww199/alistermatheson/21102009008.jpg)
After:
(http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/cristianwillaert/trump14.jpg)
Kaylan, I would have loved to see this hole built with only a tractor. If this would have been left realively as-is and maybe just smoothed but with all the undulations, it would have generated more buzz than what is there now. But, alas, I'm sure that would have been too radical for the parties involved. (see #17 Crystal Downs in the other thread).
What struck me, and surprised no one here has said anything about it is what I call "vetoed Bunkers". These are grass bunkers that just look like they were originally meant to be sand bunkers before someone "vetoed" the sand and converted the aready shaped bunker to grass.
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That landscape is insane.
Does anyone else think the architecture appears to be kind of oddly in between American-style and traditional links? I can't quite put my finger on it.
I agree...the mounding looks kinda manufactured...so does the shaping...