Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Warwick Loton on November 16, 2011, 06:18:32 AM
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Today was the second day of official practice rounds for the Presidents’ Cup. I was there, and watched Phil Mickelson, Jim Furyk, Bubba Watson & Web Simpson.
What to report:
THE GREENS
The greens were reasonably hard yesterday, and quite fast: they were hard enough to make a hollow-sounding thudding sound when a ball landed, but definitely not as hard as they sometimes get.
Last night it rained: 9mm fell (more than 1/3 of an inch).
Today the greens were a bit slower, and noticeably less hard: players had no trouble getting chips shots to check abruptly, and short approach shots to bite and aggressively spin back toward in the direction from which they’d been hit.
How fast? This afternoon I spoke to two assistant greenkeepers, each from a different Sandbelt club. One estimated the greens were stimping at 12 today; the other estimated them at 12.5-13.0 today. These estimates are higher than most of the media commentators are suggesting (ie 11 or 11.5). I can add that the balls were reacting on some greens today in ways they hardly ever do when members play, and the greens have, over recent years, regularly stimped up to 11 for members. (I'll refrain from telling you how fast I think they were, because I also spoke to a person who knows exactly what speed they are, but his comments were made in confidence. Nothing in the preceding comments reflects what that person told me, nor hints at it. The preceding comments were exactly what I’d have reported had I not spoken to this other figure.)
The greens looked to be rolling faster yesterday – you’d certainly expect them to be a bit slower after a night of persistent rain.
The grass hasn’t been cut unusually short, and so far the greens haven’t looked frightening. That said, there are spots where you really wouldn’t want a downhill putt. The players seem comfortable enough with the greens (eg no shaking of heads or whining in public…)
Today, on the 6th & 7th of the West (holes 4 & 5 on this week’s layout) when a ball was rolled up the green it would roll back down toward the bottom of the green – it wouldn’t readily hold on some of the up-slopes. The groups I saw on 6W were throwing balls around on the green, trying to figure out how to play it.
The overnight rain obviously hindered efforts to present hard greens. We’ve had a number of days of rain over the last two weeks (including 24mm / almost an inch, during a single day) so the greens staff has obviously had a challenging time getting the greens hard.
If the weather cooperates, it’s realistic to hope that the greens will firm up enough for the players to face with a real challenge (in which case we'd see which of the players understands RM). That might happen on Friday, with a forecast of 33 degrees (90 something for those of you in the States) and northerly winds averaging 40 km/h (25mile/hr).
More to come...
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cont...
THE PLAYERS I WATCHED & HOW THEY PLAYED THE COURSE
(Sorry if you don’t know the holes: there’s assumed knowledge here.)
Web Simpson and his caddy seemed the most switched on of the group I followed.
On the 1st of the East (11th of this week’s layout) all the players belted their driver, and all appeared to simply aim toward the green. Two left themselves a little chip, and two left themselves in the front right bunker, having to carry their bunker shots 25yds to reach the green – about the worse second shot you could envisage on that hole.
Once on the green, Web Simpson’s caddy started pointing to a line in from the left: he’d figured out that for a pin placement on the left, you could prudently approach from the left of the fairway. After a few minutes Phil “got it” and pronounced this insight for all to hear. They’d figured out ½ the basic strategy of where to drive on that hole.
Simpson and Watson retired for the day after playing 8 holes.
After they’d gone, Mickelson & Furyk practiced playing foursomes together. On the 3rd of the West (1st of this week’s layout) Phil drove long and right. It’s rare to see anyone play the hole this way, but, as I’ve posted before, it’s my theory that this is how the course designers intended it to be played. I suspect that their intent was that (with a hard green) the way to skilfully play the hole was to drive long and right, and then to bounced the ball through the raised diagonal hump along the front of the green. Jim hit a regulation USPGA style approach shot (ie a high wedge shot). The ball landed exactly where he'd intended, but then rolled well past the hole. The pair scratched their heads, and then Jim had a second try. He hit this one much lower, and landed it exactly where he'd aimed: he skillfully bounced the ball off the face of that hump… the ball gently ran to within 4 feet of the hole. A pleasure to watch!
Phil blazed away with driver on most holes. Some results were brilliant; some were sprayed into the trees.
Bubba hit an iron on most of his 8 holes: he hit driver just twice. On the second of the West (17th of this week’s layout) he hit iron off the tee, and another iron as an approach shot… on what is a par 5.
Oh, and finally, rumour has it that Bubba tried to drive the 18th of the West (10th of this week’s layout) yesterday – hit a draw, and finished in a greenside bunker. That’s a big hit.
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Some Presidents' Cup 2011 Pictures from the Tuesday practice.
You can see the Legend couch fairways, the fescue surrounds and the latest hybrid 'suttons mix' bent on the greens.
The course was very firm and fast on Tuesday, but slightly more receptive on Wednesday after a downpour Tuesday night. Some water was lying in the low points well out of play. Rain is forecast for saturday but tomorrow (day 1 - foursomes) will be 28 (82 F) so things should be quickish tomorrow. Friday will be 33, and humid.
#3 - west 5.
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/JamesBennett/Presidents%20Cup%202011/03-W5-1.jpg)
#4 - west 6
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/JamesBennett/Presidents%20Cup%202011/04-W6-01.jpg)
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/JamesBennett/Presidents%20Cup%202011/04-W6-02.jpg)
#11 - east 1. US team consulting their books.
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/JamesBennett/Presidents%20Cup%202011/11-1E-0.jpg)
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/JamesBennett/Presidents%20Cup%202011/11-1E-1.jpg)
approach to the green. #12 tee (east 2) in the background. Short 4 - driven by some US players despite being into the breeze.
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/JamesBennett/Presidents%20Cup%202011/11-1E-2.jpg)
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/JamesBennett/Presidents%20Cup%202011/11-1E-3.jpg)
Internationals on #11 green (east 2)
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/JamesBennett/Presidents%20Cup%202011/11-1E-4.jpg)
#12 tee (east 2)
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/JamesBennett/Presidents%20Cup%202011/12-2E-1.jpg)
play is generally from the lhs of the tee - for obvious reasons. hybrids and long irons, played over the trees at the flagpoles up be the grandstand by the green.
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/JamesBennett/Presidents%20Cup%202011/12-2E-2.jpg)
#14 (east 16). This is a new hole - 170 yards which replaces the adjacent east 4 long par 3 previously used. Two separate teeing areas, five separate pinnable areas, and a flattish green.
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/JamesBennett/Presidents%20Cup%202011/14-E16-1.jpg)
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/JamesBennett/Presidents%20Cup%202011/14-E16-2.jpg)
Play from the adjacent tee on $15 (east 17)
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/JamesBennett/Presidents%20Cup%202011/15-E17-1.jpg)
and the approach to the green after the cross bunkers. The three grass types are again apparent.
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/JamesBennett/Presidents%20Cup%202011/15-E17-2.jpg)
#18 - west 2.
The green, and adjacent bunkering.
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/JamesBennett/Presidents%20Cup%202011/18-2W-2.jpg)
The approach for your long second.
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/JamesBennett/Presidents%20Cup%202011/18-W2-1.jpg)
by the way, for the benefit of the (few) British readers, the blue part at the top of the photos is the sky. And these photos are untouched.
cheers
James B
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Brian,
I'm a traditionalist, and would like to see all the Sandbelt courses set up exactly as Crockford and Morcom (longtime RM curators & Sandbelt guiding lights) would have had it. This includes using the turf varieties they used (after much thought & much trial and error). Alas, that's never going to happen.
Switching from native couch to Legend couch has made a difference. Legend grips the ball more, and offers less run. This makes the course play longer than it used to in summer, though this impacts much more on shorter hitters while making little or no difference for pros & other long hitters. Few people mention how the extra grip impacts on sloped fairways, which are an important strategic design feature of various holes. Where a drive lands on a slope, there used to be much more of a fear of the ball bouncing off the slope and into tea tree. It's now much harder to inflict this fate upon oneself. As RM has more undulating land than any other Sandbelt course, this is more of an issue at RM than among its neighbour courses. Legend feels soft to walk upon and looks pretty. Many people think it's a fantastic choice simply because it looks so green and pretty. No doubt it's a good turf, with some advantages over native couch, but native couch also has a lot going for it. With the Legend now well established on the West and Composite course holes, and sections of the East yet to be switched over, the opportunity exists to directly compare the two couch varieties on different holes of the same course. It is instructive to ask visitors who have played the East, without awareness of the turf issues, what they though of the fairways in the far paddocks compared to those in the main paddock: most report a preference for the native turf.
The fescue surrounds (around the greens) have taken time to grow in. There tends to be far less general enthusiasm for this change (ie switching from couch surrounds to fescue). The nature of fescue is that it requires frequent watering during warm weather. Obviously this means that these areas won't be as firm as they've traditionally been. This difference has subtly but very importantly changed the way that the slopes around the greens play. There used to be many slopes at the sides of greens which would feed a ball into the core of that green. In some cases, these used to be regular target landing areas. In other cases these used to be a safe miss: you could aim well away from trouble, knowing that if you went a bit to far the course would guide your ball back pleasingly. These softened slopes now absorb the impact of a landing ball, and no longer feed it into the green. These slopes were carefully created; they were put there for a purpose; this was how the course was intended to be played... As a surface to chip off, few have taken to the fescue. It may well improve as it grows in, needing less water and being able to be cut lower and be rolled. And, to answer your direct question, yes, the ball pulls up much more than in used to in the run up.
The days of the fairways looking near-dead and being hard are most likely not to be seen again. All the Sandbelt clubs now have substantial water infrastructure, and all want their courses to look like well manicured nature-strips all year round (or as close to it as possible).
James,
Your closing comments (about the sky) are a classic.
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James, the sun sometimes shines in the UK in May, your November. Sometimes. The weather was lovely last September, your March.
Do I sense a certain animus? ;D
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Warwick,
'The greens were reasonably hard'!!
I haven't seen a shot yet despite being there for a couple of days (kind of like going to the Melbourne Cup) but i have walked it and the greens look a little more than reasonably hard to me.
I think the fescue will play beautifully - it is so much better to chip off than the couch and it looked well firm enough to me.It will be terrific to observe today and Friday looks like some smelly weather coming.
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NY Times article (by Alan Shipnuck) on RM:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/16/sports/golf/presidents-cup-international-team-has-familiarity-and-history-on-its-side.html?ref=golf
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A couple of observations from yesterday-
Into the breeze, the balls are checking. On 10 West, Tiger had a 60m pitch that spun back 6ft. Down breeze is another story though. On 1 West, Dustin Johnson landed his approach shot in the front section of the green, only for it to take a big bounce and roll out over the back.
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NY Times article (by Alan Shipnuck) on RM:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/16/sports/golf/presidents-cup-international-team-has-familiarity-and-history-on-its-side.html?ref=golf
I think the author is Adam Schupak,not the SI reporter.I thought the same thing when I first looked at it.
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James - the wettest I've been all year was playing the back nine holes of RME in March, didn't see the blue stuff then! :'(
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okay, second and final instalment (no cameras allowed Thursday to Sunday). These are a little rambling, and they show the variety of weather that can occur within an hour in Melbourne - heavy rain overnight, then overast, then cloudy, then full sun, and back to cloudy, and on goes the melbourne cycle of weather.
I will post these in the order of play - from Wednesday's practise.
#1 (3 west). the short 4 with the green feeding from front to back and from left to right. You don't want to approach from short left, and any left-side pins are particularly challenging. The fairway bunker on the next hole (#2 west 4 - bunker relocated from rhs to lhs recently) is a striking feature . #15 (east 17 par 5 is adjacent to the east.
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/JamesBennett/Presidents%20Cup%202011/01-W3-1.jpg)
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/JamesBennett/Presidents%20Cup%202011/01-W3-2.jpg)
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/JamesBennett/Presidents%20Cup%202011/01-W3-3.jpg)
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/JamesBennett/Presidents%20Cup%202011/01-W3-4.jpg)
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/JamesBennett/Presidents%20Cup%202011/01-W3-5.jpg)
Adam Scott and KJ Choi driving from the second tee. The difference in size, style and age is apparent in these two swings. "Bad boy' Stevie is quietly watching on, wearing his black hat.
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/JamesBennett/Presidents%20Cup%202011/02-W4-1.jpg)
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/JamesBennett/Presidents%20Cup%202011/02-W4-2.jpg)
Phil Mickelson practising from the back bunker on #4 (west 6). He was able to stop the ball before the imaginary back-left pin. Just an amazing shot, even in practice.
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/JamesBennett/Presidents%20Cup%202011/04-W6-03.jpg)
A few shots from the lhs of #5 (west 7) - the short uphill par 3. Again, the tightness and firmness of the fescue surrounds and the greens can be seen, as well as some of the more obvious undulations on and around the greens.
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/JamesBennett/Presidents%20Cup%202011/05-W7-1.jpg)
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/JamesBennett/Presidents%20Cup%202011/05-W7-2.jpg)
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/JamesBennett/Presidents%20Cup%202011/05-W7-3.jpg)
Phil playing iron on #6 (short par 4 west 10) into the breeze. Phil's caddy was telling Furyk's caddy that Phil wants to be close to this geen! Furyk is playing the even holes tomorrow, Phil the odds.
The shots of the bunkers around the green show some of the sod work that maintains the lip in a couple of spots - the sod is in the shadow area, magnify the image if you are interested.
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/JamesBennett/Presidents%20Cup%202011/06-W10-0.jpg)
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/JamesBennett/Presidents%20Cup%202011/06-W10-2.jpg)
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/JamesBennett/Presidents%20Cup%202011/06-W10-1.jpg)
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/JamesBennett/Presidents%20Cup%202011/06-W10-3.jpg)
#7 (west 11). a longer 4, stll pushing a little into the wind. A little by-play between Freddy and Phil whilst Furyk is driving off the next hole (yes, they were playing one ball, in strict foursomes routine).
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/JamesBennett/Presidents%20Cup%202011/07-W11-1.jpg)
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/JamesBennett/Presidents%20Cup%202011/07-W11-2.jpg)
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/JamesBennett/Presidents%20Cup%202011/07-W11-3.jpg)
#8 (west 12) - longish hole but typicallly downwind. 3 wood gets up to the rhs bunkers! The green is set into the back corner of this paddock.
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/JamesBennett/Presidents%20Cup%202011/08-W12-0.jpg)
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/JamesBennett/Presidents%20Cup%202011/08-W12-1.jpg)
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/JamesBennett/Presidents%20Cup%202011/08-W12-2.jpg)
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/JamesBennett/Presidents%20Cup%202011/08-W12-3.jpg)
#9 (west 17) back into a quartering breeze. Regarded by many as one of the best holes on the course with a delightful green. The first time I saw this hole, I didn't know the course, and could not work out whether the play was from the left (which was 18 west), the right (17 west) or as a short 4 from behind (11 west). There is nothing there which dictates where the play is from.
The tight fescue hollows on the lhs of the green are a common feature at RM. The bunkering behind has wonderful aesthetics.
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/JamesBennett/Presidents%20Cup%202011/09-W17-0.jpg)
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/JamesBennett/Presidents%20Cup%202011/09-W17-2.jpg)
#10 (west 18) is a wonderful hole for the club golfer - the carry over the hill will challenge us, but not the pro's who use a hybrid or similar (Bubba went for the green!). The green site just sits so naturally in its surrounding area.
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/JamesBennett/Presidents%20Cup%202011/10-W18-1.jpg)
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/JamesBennett/Presidents%20Cup%202011/10-W18-1a.jpg)
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/JamesBennett/Presidents%20Cup%202011/10-W18-2.jpg)
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/JamesBennett/Presidents%20Cup%202011/10-W18-4.jpg)
#16 (east 18), with #17 (west 1) to the right.
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/JamesBennett/Presidents%20Cup%202011/16-E18-1.jpg)
and now for the real golf....
James B
(ps great to see some responses regarding the weather)
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Gents - Thanks for the updates on RM leading into the PC.
So the fairways are Legend couch, the green surrounds are fescue and the greens are fescue as well?
I don't think I have ever heard of this before - is it fairly standard in Aus?
When the fairways were native couch, were the green surrounds also native couch and the greens fescue? I think that is what Warwick said?
And the reason for these changes is because clubs want a more Green - aka - American PGA - look to their courses?
What a shame.
Fascinating thread - really appreciate it. Can't wait to start watching RM on the tube tomorrow.
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Rob,
You can watch it right now! The first day's matches are live on The Golf Channel. Unlike the Ryder Cup, they only have one group of matches each of the first two days (today - foursomes, tomorrow - fourball). The event is over four days as opposed to three...
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What's up with the bunker raking pattern?
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Jeff,
I watched a piece (I think yesterday) with the RM super. He was explaining the raking of the bunkers. Apparently, they are using timber boards (?) to smooth the sand on the faces to encourage balls to bounce down to the traditionally raked portion at the bottom. I don't really understand the impotus for this (admittedly I only caught the piece midstream) and it sounded odd to me as well. He was firing balls into the face and they wouldn't plug, but roll to the bottom.
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http://yfrog.com/ehl2fz
Jeff,
I got this from Geoff Shacklefords blog. Apparently they are using a board to keep the faces firm.
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http://yfrog.com/ehl2fz
Jeff,
I got this from Geoff Shacklefords blog. Apparently they are using a board to keep the faces firm.
I got it.
make the greens really difficult...
and the bunkers easier ::)
Is the future of golf now to have a fairway grass(that slows the ball down), a greens grass(that speeds it up), an approach grass(that makes it bounce and allows you to putt), a primary rough grass, and native rough?
Didn't unirrigated bermuda accomplish the same thing there years ago?
I am enjoying how it all seems to play though ;D
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Rob
hi again - the greens are suttons mix - a strain that was the original grass, it was changed in the late 80's and is now back to suttons
Very fine blade grass with little grain
Jeff
At Yarra we use scraping boards and then brooms to keep the faces firm so balls should not plug and then roll to the base of the bunkers, this is common practice at most of the sandbelt
I agree with Mikes comment that the greens are hard, not firm as suggested earlier
The greens were at 14+ on Tuesday, they are probably a little less than that today and no doubt slower tomorrow with 25 knot northerly's predicted
Since playing there first in 1984 and since played 250+ on each course it is the closest shape to what is was in the old days for greens
The legend has done 2 things, it is playing longer than ever and for club players it is far harder to spin the ball from the fairway meaning balls bouncing more on greens
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Gents - Thanks for the updates on RM leading into the PC.
So the fairways are Legend couch, the green surrounds are fescue and the greens are fescue as well?
I don't think I have ever heard of this before - is it fairly standard in Aus?
Rob,
Dont quote me on this but I think the main reason for the grass change was improved playability all year round. The native couch was not as drought resistant in summer and there was more winter grasses in the fairway in winter.
I think that RM was the last major course in melbourne to go to couch grass. The recent 10 year drought has seen almost all clubs go to grasses that survive well in hot summers. There is a mix of santa anna, legend and wintergreen on the melbourne courses, I htink. Santa Anna was the most popular grass for a while but I think the less run and better dormant conditions of the legend couch have seen it become more popular.
I am sure as it gets wetter more clubs will experiment with oversowing fescue in the cooler months.
The greens at RM are predomonantly bent grasses, I think.
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Gents - Thanks for the updates on RM leading into the PC.
And the reason for these changes is because clubs want a more Green - aka - American PGA - look to their courses?
What a shame.
I disagree...remodeling the course looks like a well nourished US PGA course is tragic at best. pretty good...I'll have to play it sometime, hopefully
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The golf course looks flat-out incredible. The coolest visual feature, to me, is the way the bunkers seem to eat into the greens. I love that there only appears to be a few inches of fringe between green and bunker edge and I wish more golf courses would practice that sort of policy. Too often, green edges end up creeping farther and farther away from bunkers and the green complex it ends up looking sloppy and green space is lost. RM is an exemplar in terms of definition on and around greens, it seems to me.
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Warwick, James,
Many thanks for the commentary and the photographs. What a spectacular course, and, judging by the first 75 minutes of play, one that will reward excellent shots and penalize poor ones, which is what it's all about. Golf Channel reporting greens stimping at 14, about as fast as I've heard of in competition. Someone is going to putt into a bunker. This is great stuff!
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Warwick, Thanks much for sharing your insights. What an awesome place to know every inch.
My one observation from the tellie is the grass color and apparent texture differences.
Does the increased distinction between fairway and green,make the course less deceptive?
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:o :o :o
Amazing golf being played , as players are using the slopes to great advantage! Tons of birdies in the alternate shot !!!! Reminiscent of greens at Augusta visually with all the big breaks to putts. Love the large internal contours versus the microbrews that are so often lauded on GCA.
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The golf course looks flat-out incredible. The coolest visual feature, to me, is the way the bunkers seem to eat into the greens. I love that there only appears to be a few inches of fringe between green and bunker edge and I wish more golf courses would practice that sort of policy.
+1. My first thoughts as well. I am really enjoying the look of the course / the way it is playing. It seems the extremely fast greens are requiring some really creative shots and the shots that try to carry to the hole and spin are being penalized (see Phil's tee shot on 3).
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This is as good as golf gets. Watching match play golf by the best in the world on one of the best courses in the world.
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Tomorrow's schedule moved up 2 hours to 9.30am local time start to try and avoid storms forecast for late afternoon
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I have to play there one day. Bucket list, for sure.
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Tomorrow's schedule moved up 2 hours to 9.30am local time start to try and avoid storms forecast for late afternoon
That's 5:30 p.m. ET. Golf Channel will be live in U.S. Not sure about TSN Canada.
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I’m marshalling this week. If anyone wants to say hello, please do so. The schedule has us going around with Tiger’s group:) I’ll be the tallest and youngest (well, least aged) of those moving around with this group.
It was glorious watching the golf today: a joy. I sat at the green of #4 (6 West) as the groups came through, and that was the most fun I’ve ever had watching pro golf. It was literally breath-taking: as they came to understand what was going on, the entire (large) gallery became visibly excited.
To explain, this green is famous, with a steep slope from back to front. The pin was placed kindly today, to encourage players to go for birdies. When the green is slick, the ONLY way to play this green is to leave yourself uphill putts. An uphill chip is preferable to a downhill putt. Apparently Norman had given strict instructions for all of his pairings to leave their approach shots below the hole – he certainly used to do that himself in his heyday. Much of the gallery’s anticipation lay in watching who would settle for an uphill putt, and who just went for the pin. Most players just went for the pin: these shots looked perfect and checked a little, but not enough to stop them pin-high.
The third group through was Baddeley/Day vs Johnston/Kuchar. Day’s approach finished 10 feet past, Johnston’s 20 feet past. On TV they would have looked a terrific pair, but both were downhill puts. Everybody held their breath. Kuchar hit a very gentle putt, which slowly trickled 15 feet past the hole. Baddeley, a sublime putter, knew a 2-putt would probably win the hole; his putt almost dropped, but then trickled 8 feet past. The pairings halved the hole with 3-putt bogies, having both had straight-forward approach shots from somewhere around 140-150 yards out. The next match saw Goosen hit his approach to almost exactly the same spot Johnston had, and the gallery gasped at the thought of what would likely follow. Mickelson then hit an extraordinary approach, landing on a bank with both down-slope and side-slope, and saw his ball roll down the bank to finish just 3 feet from the pin. I’ve no idea whether this was intended, or a fluke. It appeared to most a spectacular shot, an effort of utter perfection. However, Furyk was left with a tricky downhill 3-footer. He missed, and both Americans must have groaned as the ball kept rolling. Instead of winning the hole, Phil started thinking about having to make the return 4-footer to save the hole. Both pairings scrambled tense two-putts, and halved the hole. A few players left their approaches below the hole, and then the excitement became a matter of whether an uphill 12 footer would be holed, or else finish as a tap-in two putt.
This probably doesn’t start to convey the excitement of those matches. The green conditioning presented a test of skill and brains. It wasn’t unfair or unplayable. This is how the hole is supposed to play: it was a challenge, and made for fantastic matchplay. Expect more excitement there tomorrow, as a more challenging pin placement is highly likely for the fourball matches.
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Warwick, Thanks much for sharing your insights. What an awesome place to know every inch.
My one observation from the tellie is the grass color and apparent texture differences.
Does the increased distinction between fairway and green,make the course less deceptive?
Adam, the contrasting textures are unusually pronounced. A chemical - iron sulphate - would presumably have been applied to the greens recently. This makes greens a bit faster, and gives them a uniform and blackish look. This colour effect won't last long. I'm unsure that the texture differences influence readability/deceptiveness.
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Warwick,
'The greens were reasonably hard'!!
I haven't seen a shot yet despite being there for a couple of days (kind of like going to the Melbourne Cup) but i have walked it and the greens look a little more than reasonably hard to me.
Mike,
Nice to see you out there today. Now that you've seen a day's play, what are your thoughts?
Andrew Bertram similarly indicated that the greens are beyond merely firm, that they are really hard. Both of you know vastly more than me about course management issues: no question there. Whatever the semantics, they are much harder than most golfers would ever have played upon, yet a distinct level below being as hard as they’ve been at various times in my memory.
The greens will play harder tomorrow (Friday) than they've played so far, unless they're watered overnight - they were distinctly firmer today than yesterday; the weather's conducive; and I'd suspect that harder surfaces are desired. I doubt anyone wants them very much faster, but hardness is a different matter.
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Warwick, Thanks much for sharing your insights. What an awesome place to know every inch.
My one observation from the tellie is the grass color and apparent texture differences.
Does the increased distinction between fairway and green,make the course less deceptive?
Adam, the contrasting textures are unusually pronounced. A chemical - iron sulphate - would presumably have been applied to the greens recently. This makes greens a bit faster, and gives them a uniform and blackish look. This colour effect won't last long. I'm unsure that the texture differences influence readability/deceptiveness.
I was going to ask about the colour, as they appear quite dark, but you've explained the reason for this. Thanks!
Do they appears as dark as this in reality?
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Mickelson then hit an extraordinary approach, landing on a bank with both down-slope and side-slope, and saw his ball roll down the bank to finish just 3 feet from the pin. I’ve no idea whether this was intended, or a fluke. It appeared to most a spectacular shot, an effort of utter perfection. However, Furyk was left with a tricky downhill 3-footer. He missed, and both Americans must have groaned as the ball kept rolling. Instead of winning the hole, Phil started thinking about having to make the return 4-footer to save the hole. Both pairings scrambled tense two-putts, and halved the hole.
Warwick
Phil played the same shot the day before in practise to a similar pin position, except Jim holed the putt on the practise day.
I think Phil meant it to happen.
James B
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(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/JamesBennett/Presidents%20Cup%202011/09-W17-0.jpg)
That would be a gum tree then?
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Can someone please get those in charge of the Ryder Cup to watch this?
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Great photos, thank you for posting. I enjoyed catching a bit of the coverage before bed. It's fun watching the big guys play RM.
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Beyond the fact that they were originally designed by Alister Mackenzie and have large greens with lots of internal slopes and contours, I don't see the connection between RM and Augusta National.
Augusta is now a course that stands as legacy to the collective ambitions and egos of the people who have run Augusta National since Bobby Jones' influence dimmed in the 50s due to his medical condition. Royal Melbourne, without the steady stream of bullshit about preserving the legacy of "Jones and MacKenzie" you hear gushing out of Augusta every April, have actually retained the playing characteristics that Mackenzie originally intended for their golf course.
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I got it.
make the greens really difficult...
and the bunkers easier ::)
Is the future of golf now to have a fairway grass(that slows the ball down), a greens grass(that speeds it up), an approach grass(that makes it bounce and allows you to putt), a primary rough grass, and native rough?
Didn't unirrigated bermuda accomplish the same thing there years ago?
I am enjoying how it all seems to play though ;D
The idea of no plugged lies and flat lies all the time in the bunkers may make it look easier but trust me those bunkers are anything but easy. The faces are usually so steep that they don't really hold the sand in a loose form properly anyway and compacting them down keeps the structure of the bunker far better. Even though you get a flat lie these is hardly any sand, only a very fine layer and it is dubious whether you could even call it sand, some people would refer to it as dirt! Couple that together with steep high faces and pins tight to the edge of the bunker and you have a seriously tough shot.
I think it would be safe to say that the average golfer who has grown up playing out of those bunkers will be a far better bunker player than most other golfers, this is true from what I have seen anyway. Nearly all the Aussie pro's are fantastic bunker players and I believe the sand-belt bunkers are partly why.
As for the grasses. The Sutton's mix on the green I believe is exactly the same or as close as they could get to what was originally used when RM was built. Unfortunately though I am told that over the years the greens had deteriorated and they had struggled to prevent other grasses from getting into the greens so they decided to start again with more Sutton's mix.
I am fairly confident in saying that the fairways were changed for the reasons many others have mentioned, partly down to playability but mainly drought resistance. Recently the sand belt courses have been restricted on what water they can use to irrigate the courses leading to a shortage of irrigation water due to cost. This has meant many courses have built large irrigation reservoirs such as the one on the right side of 17 at Vic or the left of 4 at Commonwealth. Essentially water conservation has become a massive issue and Legend Couch survives much better in times of drought than native. Two or three years ago before the irrigation lake was built at Commonwealth the native couch fairways all nearly died and have since be replaced by legend couch fairways to prevent this happening again. As David says the other option for the fairways was Santa Anna which I believe is used at Kingston Heath but I guess RM felt it plays too fast and would make the course play too short so Legend was chosen instead.
This is all from what I have been told and heard from various sources and not fact so don't quote me on it, but I am pretty confident it all makes sense!!!!
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It was an entertaining first day. A few reactions:
1. The approaches look goofy
2. I like the fast greens
3. I do not recall seeing so many fliers in watching one round of a tournament. I love the challenge that those lies in the rough present particularly when combined with the firmness and speed of the greens.
4. Players were forced to make a series of interesting decisions
5. There were more drivers off the tee than I anticipated. I am not sure additional yardage is needed on the course - even for a stroke play event.
6. Wide range of scores in foursomes - from 7 under to 3 over.
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Mickelson then hit an extraordinary approach, landing on a bank with both down-slope and side-slope, and saw his ball roll down the bank to finish just 3 feet from the pin. I’ve no idea whether this was intended, or a fluke. It appeared to most a spectacular shot, an effort of utter perfection. However, Furyk was left with a tricky downhill 3-footer. He missed, and both Americans must have groaned as the ball kept rolling. Instead of winning the hole, Phil started thinking about having to make the return 4-footer to save the hole. Both pairings scrambled tense two-putts, and halved the hole.
Warwick
Phil played the same shot the day before in practise to a similar pin position, except Jim holed the putt on the practise day.
I think Phil meant it to happen.
James B
James
I watched all the groups play through the 4th (6W) from behind the green. I have no doubt that Phil meant to do what he did. Unfortunately he left Furyk with a downhill putt that never looked like going in. Scary quick from behind the hole - and with no wind!!
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It is undeniable that the course looks great, but really not sure about all these different types of grasses -especially visually with the approaches shining out from a distance contrasting against the greens...it just doesn't feel natural.
I had a similar reaction. To be clear, the course looks great. But in past pictures and coverage of RM, the brownish grass seemed to blend much better with the surroundings and bunkers than the multi-colored and greener grass that's there now. Again, this is just an observation about aethetics, not playability.
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Thanks for the thread. Although most of the below information was coveyed above the pictures, I am passing along the hole play list (since I had already done it for myself)
Hole 1 - 3 West, Hole 2 - 4 West, Hole 3 - 5 West, Hole 4 - 6 West, Hole 5 - 7 West, Hole 6 - 10 West, Hole 7 - 11 West, Hole 8 - 12 West, Hole 9 - 17 West, Hole 10 - 18 West, Hole 11 - 1 East, Hole 12 - 2 East, Hole 13 - 3 East, Hole 14 - 16 East, Hole 15 - 17 East, Hole 16 - 18 East, Hole 17 - 1 West, and Hole 18 - 2 West.
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I had an absolute blast watching the Presidents Cup last night. From what I could discern from the coverage, it looked to be a master class in bunkering/bunker placement. Just fantastic stuff.
I would agree the dark greens did look a bit odd in contrast with the rest of the place.
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How cool was KJ's back-to-the-hole-from-15-feet putt? Feherty says, it doesn't break that much moments before KJ hits a beauty that curls down, perfectly on line, stopping 6 inches short of the hole...
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Tweet of the Day:
@DanHicksNBC Melbourne one of most expensive cities in world. Just paid 9 bucks for bowl of cereal and OJ! Checking to c if I have enough cash for coffee
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(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/JamesBennett/Presidents%20Cup%202011/09-W17-0.jpg)
That would be a gum tree then?
Tom
not sure if you were serious, but that is a gum tree high in the background. (Yes, I know, Kookaburra sits on the old gum tree-E....)
The kookaburra is sitting on a piece of tea-tree.
Tea-tree is a wonderful bush which has had a deleterious effect on many sandbelt courses if unmanaged. Melbourne's gorse!
I believe tea-tree has three natural enemies - Graeme Grant (particularly the Kingston Heath species), Michael Clayton and Stihl chainsaws. Tea-tree needs a master.
James B
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Tea tree is the US version of mulberry bush/tree. A noxious species unless just outside the fence of a golf course!
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Tweet of the Day:
@DanHicksNBC Melbourne one of most expensive cities in world. Just paid 9 bucks for bowl of cereal and OJ! Checking to c if I have enough cash for coffee
Dan must never have had to pay for breakfast in New York.
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(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/JamesBennett/Presidents%20Cup%202011/09-W17-0.jpg)
That would be a gum tree then?
Tom
not sure if you were serious, but that is a gum tree high in the background. (Yes, I know, Kookaburra sits on the old gum tree-E....)
The kookaburra is sitting on a piece of tea-tree.
Tea-tree is a wonderful bush which has had a deleterious effect on many sandbelt courses if unmanaged. Melbourne's gorse!
I believe tea-tree has three natural enemies - Graeme Grant (particularly the Kingston Heath species), Michael Clayton and Stihl chainsaws. Tea-tree needs a master.
James B
I think we call a gum tree a eucalyptus.
I am loving watching Royal Melbourne in these conditions. Can anyone post a marked up aerial of the composite routing?
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here you go Billl...
link to a pdf
http://i.cdn.turner.com/pgatour/docs/pdf/Pcup_course_map_2011_27.9.11.pdf
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Tweet of the Day:
@DanHicksNBC Melbourne one of most expensive cities in world. Just paid 9 bucks for bowl of cereal and OJ! Checking to c if I have enough cash for coffee
Dan must never have had to pay for breakfast in New York.
Dan Hicks should tweet about the per diem he gets as well. I'm betting it covers his breakfast.
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What an extraordinary day. Like Warwick did yesterday, I sat by the 4th green (6W) and watched all six groups go through. It was absolute carnage with the hole cut front left, with many of the world's best players torn to ribbons by the wind, the slope and the speed of the green.
My friends didn't know what to think when I predicted that any player who hit their approach shot into the back left bunker had no chance of getting up and down, and a very slim chance of keeping their ball on the green if they hit it anywhere remotely in the direction of the hole.
7 of 24 players visited the back left bunker, and several hit stunning bunker shots. None stayed on the green, only one was even close. In addition, Bubba Watson's birdie putt from the back of the green rolled off the front as well. I'll be interested to read the players' reactions to this hole, because I thought it played extremely difficult but also very fair. Well judged approach shots left very makeable birdie putts, with Tiger and Mickelson benefiting from excellent approaches.
While its fun to see professionals ruining their cards on holes like 6W, I think that this hole is better suited to matchplay, because it forces players to attempt recovery shots around the greens that they wouldn't even consider in a strokeplay tournament.
More broadly, today was easily the toughest I've seen a sandbelt course play (I've only been watching golf since the late 90s). Interested to hear how it stacks up to some of those tournaments in the 70s and 80s which are part of Australian golfing folklore.
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I am loving the look of the course, the way the bunkers eat into the edges of the greens with no collar of rough around them. Not to mention I love quick greens, and these look comparable to Oakmont.
My girlfriend's father lives in Melbourne, a visit might well be on the cards as soon as possible.
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More broadly, today was easily the toughest I've seen a sandbelt course play (I've only been watching golf since the late 90s). Interested to hear how it stacks up to some of those tournaments in the 70s and 80s which are part of Australian golfing folklore.
Chris
The only day that I can recall that seemed harder was the one when they were blown off the greens at RM ?
It was fascinating watching - loved seeing them trying to go for the front pin on 3 and Bubba's putt from above the hole on 4 had me in stitches.
RM is now back to what it was like in the 80's.
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How good was ten west playing downwind in a 4ball!
Players hitting in the drive bunker, in the greenside bunker, over the green, on the green, laying up and pitching on, laying up and pitching over the green. Bubba Watson trying to drive the green with an iron! I reckon I saw that hole played more ways in 1 hour today than I have in all the previous tournaments I have seen at Royal Melbourne. With older equipment and strokeplay conditions that hole is an iron adn a wedge for 90% of the field. The improved equipment and the format of this event has made this hole even better than what it once was.
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Can someone please get those in charge of the Ryder Cup to watch this?
Could you explain why please Jud? Obviously a great location/course but for me the event is one day too long. Perhaps they should watch the Ryder Cup and see how itis done in 2 days.
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Can someone please get those in charge of the Ryder Cup to watch this?
Could you explain why please Jud? Obviously a great location/course but for me the event is one day too long. Perhaps they should watch the Ryder Cup and see how itis done in 2 days.
Would you prefer to watch the type of golf we're seeing at RM or what we saw (will see) at these courses?:
Celtic Manor
Valhalla
K Club
Belfry
Valderamma
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Jud, I 100% prefer to see golf on a course like this as do another 1499 people on this site. I doubt the rest of the golf world could care less. Honestly. I went to the Belfry years ago and never heard a bad word about the course!!!! Unfortunately it is not about the course...it's about getting forty thousand fans in viewing locations to watch 4 matches.....it's also about logistics....and it's also about money! Of course I would love to watch 2 days of golf at Swinley Forest....it will probably never happen. Can a just say again I think the Presidents Cup should go to the two day format. The third day dilutes the event for me......purely an opinion.
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I seriously question the PGA's decision making on course selection lately. Re: PGA Championship courses, I am looking forward to this year at the Ocean Course at Kiawah. However, I am sure that they could find more interesting courses than many of their picks. Their Ryder Cup picks are really questionable.
Here are the PGA Championship courses:
2003 Oak Hill
2004 Whistling Straits
2005 Baltusrol
2006 Medinah
2007 Southern Hills
2008 Oakland Hills
2009 Hazeltine
2010 Whistling Straits
2011 Atlanta Athletic Club
2012 Kiawah
2013 Oak Hill Country Club, East Course
2014 Valhalla Golf Club
2015 Whistling Straits
2016 Baltustrol Golf Club, Lower Course
2017 Quail Hollow Club
Here are the Ryder Cup Courses:
2004 Oakland Hills
2008 Valhalla
2012 Medinah
2016 Hazeltine
2020 Whistling Straits
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My mistake Michael....3 days as opposed to 4!
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I apologize if someone touched on this elsewhere, but why are the fairway-green transitions a different grass (fescue) than the fairways? At least from overhead on television, I find this more visually jarring than the dark greens.
I'm very much enjoying watching the event and the course is a big part of that. For all the talk of a home course advantage for the Int'ls, that only applies to certain players. Apart from KJ Choi, the Asian players who play in Asia or on the U.S. tour don't seem to be adapting too well to the conditions at RM.
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I apologize if someone touched on this elsewhere, but why are the fairway-green transitions a different grass (fescue) than the fairways? At least from overhead on television, I find this more visually jarring than the dark greens.
I'm very much enjoying watching the event and the course is a big part of that. For all the talk of a home course advantage for the Int'ls, that only applies to certain players. Apart from KJ Choi, the Asian players who play in Asia or on the U.S. tour don't seem to be adapting too well to the conditions at RM.
Tim - reply 4 describes it.
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Thanks Jason, good information from Warwick there.
I don't think I saw, though, an explanation for why the fescue was put in around the greens.
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Did Freddie take his team to Orlando to practice putting on the Treasure Island Pirate's Cove ?
How often does the wind blow from the North as it did yesterday?
When the world's best players were struggling to make pars, would an 18 handicapper notice the difficulty, or woul they finish?
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Gary the firmness and speed of the greens make it exceptionally difficult to score. A couple of times I hit perfect sand wedges into 1st on the composite and never held the green. The par 3 third is really tough if you get above the hole as is 4th and 5th. As soon as you get out of position the course crucifies the amateur who cannot get loads of spin on bunker and short approach shots. In the conditions we are seeing low 90s would be a great score for a 10 handicapper.
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To me, having not been down to Melbourne yet, the best part of this event is finally being able to actually see how the golf course PLAYS. Hearing from others that have played it and looking at photos is great, but watching the ball in action on the course has been fun. Next, is to now go play it myself!
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Becker, I agree with your comments about Royal Melbourne. I was in Chicago this week for work, but when I got home last night I finally had a chance to see some of the TV coverage. I'm blown away by how fantastic RM appears to be. The firmness of the course, especially the greens is amazing. But the bunkering is what really blows my mind. I absolutely love that the edges of many of the bunkers go right up to the green surfaces. From my limited experience, and from viewing the coverage on TV, this may be the best course in the world.
I think my dream trip may be to Australia, rather than Scotland. I just need to convince my wife to let me go...easier said than done.
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Gary the firmness and speed of the greens make it exceptionally difficult to score. A couple of times I hit perfect sand wedges into 1st on the composite and never held the green. The par 3 third is really tough if you get above the hole as is 4th and 5th. As soon as you get out of position the course crucifies the amateur who cannot get loads of spin on bunker and short approach shots. In the conditions we are seeing low 90s would be a great score for a 10 handicapper.
Thanks Mark. My new question is: if a 10 handicapper would shoot in the 90s, would an 18 handicapper shoot much over 100? I feel the way RM was playing yesterday both a 10 and an 18 might shoot similar high scores.
I love the bunkering cutting into the greens, Norman had done this at the Medalist and it presented a more testing approach.
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Gary,
An average 18 handicap playing in Friday's conditions couldn't break 120. For a start he would three putt at least a dozen greens and there are many bunker shots he would have no chance of getting onto the green.
The hot north wind off the desert blows maybe 15 days from about now until the end of February. It always changes to the south, as it did last night, at about six o'clock. This morning - it's 6.15 here - it has just stopped raining and it is very still and quite cool.The golf will be much different today and a lot easier.
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Friday was unbelievably hot, dry and windy. Probably 95 degrees F plus, gusty winds from the hot interior and 20% humidity.
Greens were handwatered after play (ie, just greens, not surrounds). Play finished at 4.30pm despite the early start - it was really tough out there and RM greens are unforgiving. The PGA Tour did really well to bring forward play by 2 or so hours. A huge electrical storm wnet through in an hour about 6.30 pm, and we have had a lot of rain since then. Probably enough rain to cause delays at other courses but RM's sand will just suck it up.
Todays greens will be fractionally less quick, and slightly more receptive. There won't be any pitchmarks though (there rarely are at RM). It will be about 74 degrees F today, with far less wind.
James B
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Thanks James B,
Anyone talking about different golf balls being used or different wedges etc... to help get around this masterpiece??
Thanks
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Thanks James B,
Anyone talking about different golf balls being used or different wedges etc... to help get around this masterpiece??
Thanks
I am not on site (obviously), but I heard Tiger remark that he finds the balls that everyone uses so similar it hasn't been an issue. I don't know about wedges.
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Thanks Gray Grieve for posting the link to the Presidents Cup routing. What I was hoping for and would love to see is the entire 36 hole aerial with hole numbers W and E, and the composite routing highlighted. It seems odd that the composite first tee is out in the middle of the course, but the 18th is right by the clubhouse.
Is there much if any difference between the West and East? At Walton Heath there is no discernible difference between Old and New and they actually intertwine in a couple of spots I think. St Andrews Old and New are pretty different in some ways - double greens for sure, and amount and nature of bunkering.
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Bill:
I can't find a link to a routing of both courses, hopefully those with photoshop skills will chime in.
The two courses are very similar in style, although the West feels a bit bolder in both features and contours. The bunkering style is identical, and there really are no discernible differences in the maintenance of each. The East course starts on what is the 11th hole in the composite routing. It winds around the outside of the the front nine of the West course before eventually crossing the road. It returns at the same point after 15 to continue on the outside of the West course back to the clubhouse. If you look at the composite routing, holes 11, 12 and 13 are the first three on the East, with 14, 15 and 16 being the last three holes.
Earlier (or possible on the GC covereage) someone mentioned that MacKenzie did not design the 18th on the East course. I was under the impression that the 18th was his work, and was moved to part of the East course when the additional property for expansion was obtained. I'd be interested in getting some background on the history of the expansion and exactly where he had a role in the design.
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Nice little appearance for Darius Oliver as the authority on modern Australian golf history.
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Thanks James B,
Anyone talking about different golf balls being used or different wedges etc... to help get around this masterpiece??
Thanks
I am not on site (obviously), but I heard Tiger remark that he finds the balls that everyone uses so similar it hasn't been an issue. I don't know about wedges.
On Thursday Tiger practiced with the basic ProV1 balls. I'm guessing this is Stricker's regular ball, and that they played with this in their foursomes that day. If so, this would tie in with your comment. (Tiger played with a Nike-branded ball in yesterday's fourball match, as you'd expect.)
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Bill:
I can't find a link to a routing of both courses, hopefully those with photoshop skills will chime in.
The two courses are very similar in style, although the West feels a bit bolder in both features and contours. The bunkering style is identical, and there really are no discernible differences in the maintenance of each. The East course starts on what is the 11th hole in the composite routing. It winds around the outside of the the front nine of the West course before eventually crossing the road. It returns at the same point after 15 to continue on the outside of the West course back to the clubhouse. If you look at the composite routing, holes 11, 12 and 13 are the first three on the East, with 14, 15 and 16 being the last three holes.
Earlier (or possible on the GC covereage) someone mentioned that MacKenzie did not design the 18th on the East course. I was under the impression that the 18th was his work, and was moved to part of the East course when the additional property for expansion was obtained. I'd be interested in getting some background on the history of the expansion and exactly where he had a role in the design.
Thanks Sven. I really can't think of any golf course(s) I'd rather play right now.
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Believe I just saw David Elvins in a bright green Masters hat standing behind the 3rd tee.
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Believe I just saw David Elvins in a bright green Masters hat standing behind the 3rd tee.
That's him. I recognize the ironic hat.
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David was wearing that hat - I was nearby at that time.
I wish it wass 74 today - it was more like 60, and wet. Portland Oregon weather today after Arizone weather yesterday. Gotta love Melbourne's weather. I haven't ever been so hot and dehydrated one day, and numb with cold the next day.
PS I thought Tiger and Stricker would play a 'Tike' ball.
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Wish there were more compelling singles matches on the docket. Surprised too since it isn't a blind draw....
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The course on the Flyovers, looks positively delicious. The inputs for television are but a pity. Other than that, the golf is sublime, even with the stickiness of the rain.
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Thanks James B,
Anyone talking about different golf balls being used or different wedges etc... to help get around this masterpiece??
Thanks
I am not on site (obviously), but I heard Tiger remark that he finds the balls that everyone uses so similar it hasn't been an issue. I don't know about wedges.
Hey Alex, thanks, but I think Tiger is refferring here to alternate shot....just thinking when it was dry and hard, that all who had use ProV1x regularly on the PGA tour might go to ProV1 etc... How come you are not on site?
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Watching some highlights just now, the team of Stricker and Tiger, remind of Tiger's first full year on tour (Don't know if it was Steve's) when they came to the Clambake, and were paired together the first day at Spy. circa Feb.'97. I remember turning to a total stranger on the shuttle bus, recognizing the palpable feeling that we're on our way to see something really special. Watched them through the 8th, where each walked off, with a birdie, and as they passed me, knowing the greatness of the 8th at Spyglass, I clapped, tip my cap, and said to them both, "world class birdies boys". Palpable indeed!
Blatant obtuse Redanman reference to Follow;
Imo, The 8th at Spy, is the best hole on the course, because of the challenge associated with reading and reacting to the slope of the terrain throughout the hole but especially, on the green.
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James:
Guessing that was you in the white hat. For some reason the bright green stood out a bit more. Glad to see you guys are out enjoying the matches. Any other GCAer sitings at the Cup?
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It has been interesting to see the course play 3 different ways in 3 days. I think the crew is doing a great job of adjusting the greens to the conditions of the day at hand. There is nothing better than match play on a strategic course. So many cool shots made by such great players. I would like to see how the course is put together as well. I also wonder why there are not more marshall's on the course to keep play moving and help with shots that leave the neighborhood. cheers
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A question for the Royal Melbourne cognoscenti:
Is the composite course really much better than RM West, or is it done for logistics and spectating purposes?
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Bill:
The composite course certainly makes the crowd control issues a bit easier to manage. Of the RMW holes listed below, 13 - 16 are across the main road to the club and would present a logjam getting crowds back and forth between the two areas. Using the composite routing keeps everything within one set of fences, which seems preferable over the alternative.
Holes from RMW left off the composite:
8: Shorter par 4 that plays parallel to RME 1 - a tougher hole than RME 1 (Comp 11)
9: Par 4 with a wide landing area, approach plays slightly uphill to a green guarded on the front right by bunkers. Not one of the standout holes on RMW but still pretty good.
13: Short par 3 - interesting green, but probably not as good a hole as RME 16 (Comp 14).
14: Par 4 with trouble up the right that has to be dealt with. Great green. Would be a great addition to the composite routing if it wasn't across the road.
15: Short Par 5 (would probably play as a 4 for competition). Out of bounds runs the entire length of the left side, with a significant area of rough in the area at the end of the fairway.
16: Great longer par 3 with an amazing bunker complex around the green. Would love to see this hole in play.
Of the RME holes used in the composite, RME 1 (Comp 11), 3 (Comp 13) and 17 (Comp 15) are the weakest of the bunch. 18 (Comp 16) is a great addition to the routing, and 16 (Comp 14) is a suitable par 3 addition. Interesting to note that the Composite routing has only three par 3's. RMW has 4, two of which aren't included in what we're watching this week.
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I also wonder why there are not more marshall's on the course to keep play moving and help with shots that leave the neighborhood. cheers
Tiger
play is slow because the players don't know the greens. There is a big difference in play between a 1 degree slope with you and against you. Play would be quicker if each group had a local member as a 'greens-caddie' - they don't need forecaddies. :)
Others
some of the iron is washing off the edges of the greens - I expect that there is less colour difference between the fescue surrounds and the suttons mix on the greens in those areas.
It has stopped raining for a while now. There is a chance of a shower this afternoon, but it will be a light shower, not the rain of yesterday. Strong gusty winds from the west, a little north-west in the morning and south-west (the prevailing breeze) in the afternoon.
hould be a great day for golf, with the greens returning to firmer but not rock hard conditions.
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16: Great longer par 3 with an amazing bunker complex around the green. Would love to see this hole in play.
This hole has got a desrving mention a few times this week, by Mike Clayton and others including Sven (Hi Sven - I was in the stand by 7 west on the early coverage yesterday. You would be a real nerd with fantastic eyes to have picked me out - LOL). I posted this composite picture of 16 East last year, but it is more appropriate now.
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/JamesBennett/RM%20West/RMW16.jpg)
James B
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A question for the Royal Melbourne cognoscenti:
Is the composite course really much better than RM West, or is it done for logistics and spectating purposes?
The composite layout was first used for the 1959 Canada Cup (now called the World Cup). At the time, Australia had never staged a golf event on a scale anything like that one. Huge crowds were expected, and the police didn't want to have to control crowds swarming crossing the roads. Until the Composite was first used, nobody seems to have recognised how good it would be: it wasn't created to make a superior layout; nor was there the intent to ever use it again.
There is a general consensus that the Composite is superior to the West: you go a long way to find dissenters. As James suggests, the really special hole on the outer paddock of the West is the 16th (200m par-3). It is a gem.
Today people assume that the West is vasty superior to the East. This is a relatively new way of thinking. Had the Canada Cup not been been played on the Composite, it may well have been played on the East. Up until the end of the 1970s, just as many pro events had been played on the East as on the West. The Australian PGA Championship was staged on the East as recently as the 1980s (1984 from memory??): the response at that time was highly favorable.
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Bill,
O think the topic was briefly discussed in another thread.
Sven,
You are seriously underating 1 east. It has been argued that it is the best green complex on the property. Just a fantastic short 4 with options q plenty.
17e is not a great hole but it is very important to the composite course as the west course on its own does not have a true par 5. Adding this 570 yard hole to the course significantly improves the course, especially for tournaments.
The composite course has traditionally been 300 odd metres longer than the west course and rated 3-4 shots harder. This is a huge factor for tournaments. It also has better holes and better terrain with more unique holes and shots.
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The East is a very fine course but the outer paddocks lack the fine rolling land of the composite course.
As Warwick says the sad thing about the Composite is missing 16W one of the great par 3s.
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I am surprised they do not try to bust driver onto that 1st green.
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Bubba has driver in his hands right now on 1.
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Are those guys cheerleaders?
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Thanks Gray Grieve for posting the link to the Presidents Cup routing. What I was hoping for and would love to see is the entire 36 hole aerial with hole numbers W and E, and the composite routing highlighted. It seems odd that the composite first tee is out in the middle of the course, but the 18th is right by the clubhouse.
Bill,
The composite first tee (3W) is actually quite near the clubhouse, as 2W (No. 18 composite) heads back in the opposite direction to 1W. I've never been able to post pictures here, but could send you a copy of the 36-hole routing & composite routing on Monday (PM me with your email if you wish).
TK
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Are those guys cheerleaders?
Norman/Couples or the guys in yellow and green? :)
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And I thought the back pin position was tough on 5W (the 3rd)......but then I did keep going long!!
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man...the way the course is set up, I don't think I could break 100.
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Even before hearing Johnny M just say how, if the hole location isn't in it's limited perfect position, some of these greens are "Unfair", I was wondering how much longer we will be blessed with seeing greens of this character?
Afterall it isn't the greens fault, 14 on the Stimp is the new normal.
Also, Im wondering how much RM's unique playing characteristics, played upon Couples, when selecting his team?
And,
.. has there been a trend, where the American's actually play better on these firmer courses? The Ryder cup venues selected by the Euros is always uber lush "American Style" while it was Azinger's instruction to the Super, for firmer conditions, that accounted for our last Victory.
Mac, I bet I would.
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Gentlemen,
Terrific golf on a terrific course!
Mac, I reckon breaking 100 would be a first class, excellent round for me!
Cheers Colin
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For all those who think that technology has ruined the game at the professional level and given Dustin Johnson types a distinct advantage, I give you Royal Melbourne. What a marvelous venue.
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I'll go a step further, and say this is one of my (two or three) favorite events of the year. I like this much more than the typical Ryder Cup event, for a variety of reasons.
Nobody seems to have mentioned this. Tiger Woods is playing well this week.
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It's an intriguing match play venue for the pros and it looks like nirvana for us normal slobs.
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I don't even care about hitting drives, I just wanna hit shots around those greens for hours.
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Put the Australian Open there permanently, play it every November, nix the appearance fees, and you've got your fifth major.
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Is there anyone that thinks Tiger will never win again?
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Craig
I'm positive he'll win on the PGA Tour again - though I'm less positive he'll pass Nicklaus' Major tally.
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Actually, I have been saying the last couple months that I thought he (Tiger) would never win again. This is the best he's played in quite some time. His swing looks much better, doesn't it?
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Actually, I have been saying the last couple months that I thought he (Tiger) would never win again. This is the best he's played in quite some time. His swing looks much better, doesn't it?
John - Looks like he trusts the knee again, Finally.
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Congratulations to the US.
Good contributions by all team members v some obvious lesser one's in the International team.
The 4somes results were the obvious difference.
The highlight ? Great to see RM under all conditions particularly the strong north wind.
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Tiger has shown he is far from done if he can stay healthy! Wifes and caddies can come and go but the abiltiy he has is deep.
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I did enjoy watching the pros play Royal Melbourne in a variety of conditions but after looking at the upcoming venues for both the Presidents and Ryder Cups I am done watching these competitions for the foreseeable future.
I would like to see a prominent tournament played at RM every Australian spring/summer so I could see the course each year on TV.
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Jeff,
I watched a piece (I think yesterday) with the RM super. He was explaining the raking of the bunkers. Apparently, they are using timber boards (?) to smooth the sand on the faces to encourage balls to bounce down to the traditionally raked portion at the bottom. I don't really understand the impotus for this (admittedly I only caught the piece midstream) and it sounded odd to me as well. He was firing balls into the face and they wouldn't plug, but roll to the bottom.
The preparation of the bunkers has been very interesting. There was obviously a desire to have most balls run down the bunker faces to finish on the flat base area. This harks back to the traditional way that bunkers used to be throughout Melbourne's Sandbelt courses - except that bunker bases used to consist of a very, very modest layer of sand atop a hard-pan surface. In recent times, there has been a move away from this tradition, and toward much fluffier sand throughout. In order to firm up the sloped bunker surfaces in preparation for this event, small vehicles (eg Toro mini-tractors) were to be seen being driven up the bunker faces. (Obviously not all the way up the steeper sections.) After this compaction, boards and flat rakes were used to smooth these surfaces.
Back in the days when Sandbelt bunkers fed all balls down to a really hard base, there was a big incentive to stay out of greenside bunkers: they were truly penal.
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A few quick observations:
A lot of the time players hit iron or fairway wood to the same locations that pros used to hit their driver to - that is, in spite of the moden equipment adding to hitting distances, it seemed that most approach shots were hit from the same zones they used to be hit from during the 1980s. (Unsure if others had this impression too??)
Where this week's players tried to use their modern-equipment-aided-length to drive par-4s (primarily the 6th (10w) & 11th (1e)) they didn't seem to gain an advantage - frequently they finished with pars, whereas a more conservative drive would have given them a good chance of birdie.
Over the final two days (when the greens were softened by the rain) we got to see a number of exceptionally difficult pin placements. Talking to various people who know the course well, nobody had ever seen a number of these. It would seem that the Super has been quite imaginative in rethinking possible pin locations, rather than simply reverting to the long established spots. This innovation made for an alternative challenge when the weather blunted the potency of the greens, and to my eye made for terrific matchplay.
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Will this method of bunker presentation be seen more often? And will we see this golfer again soon in the winner's circle?
(http://i43.tinypic.com/qyhdn5.jpg)
(figured out how to get m2t streams from my cable box to my computer via FireWire) ;D
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Warwick
Thanks for your observations. I saw the course on Thursday.
While you suggest the Super may have chosen the pin locations, that would be highly unlikely. While he MIGHT have been in the group that set the next day's pins, this would have primarily been a PGA Tour responsibility. There were some very difficult pin spots out there that I saw on TV today.
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Sitting around after golf yesterday with 8 guys proved what a star RM is. Only one other guy really has an interest in golf architecture although everyone was talking about the course. The bunker style,the way they were raked,grasses and green color all popped up in the discussion. Additionally the types of shots played around the greens had everyone`s attention. I have never been to the land down under but it would certainly be a dream trip to see RM and some of the other Sandbelt courses.
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Will this method of bunker presentation by seen more often? And will we see this golfer again soon in the winner's circle?
(http://i43.tinypic.com/qyhdn5.jpg)
(figured out how to get m2t streams from my cable box to my computer via FireWire) ;D
East Lake is doing their bunkers that way now...just started about a month ago. That is not raking the sides...only the bottom on the bunkers.
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I am a little surprised that no one has mentioned it, but Rock Creek Cattle Co., in Montana maintains their bunkers in a very similar manner.
Michael
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Warwick
Thanks for your observations. I saw the course on Thursday.
While you suggest the Super may have chosen the pin locations, that would be highly unlikely. While he MIGHT have been in the group that set the next day's pins, this would have primarily been a PGA Tour responsibility. There were some very difficult pin spots out there that I saw on TV today.
Hi Neil,
Great you were able to have a look round on Thursday.
I'm sure you're correct that the PGA Tour held all the power in the daily selection of pin placements. Do you think that they would have thought up their own pin placements, or have worked mainly from a list of recommended options from the Super?
I'd presumed the latter. Although this presumption may be quite wrong, that's what I was attempting to suggest. As background, Richard has introduced a number of novel pin placements since he's arrived. Although various ones on show this week have been new, they are in the style of the others he has introduced - being very close to the edges of greens, and commonly around corner sections (eg front right of 6th (10w), as used on Sunday; front left of 12th (2e) as used I think Saturday... are like a front left one he'd previously introduced on 3e, and a rear corner one on 16w).
Whoever's responsible, did you have any thoughts on those tough placements?
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This event was so much more interesting by having the greens as fast as they were IMO. Too fast for the rest of us but thats part of what you need to challenge these guys (along with the firm).
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Warwick
Some pins looked extremely devilish and I had never seen pins there in my time of playing and watching tournaments at RM, such as the very tight left pin on 16 (18E), still they were the day after the greens were rained upon, so if there was a day when you could get away with it, yesterday was it.
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Is there anyone that thinks Tiger will never win again?
I doubt he wins another major.
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I cannot imagine the Tour took full responsibility for pin positions without the heavy involvement of the Superintendent. The greens are too fast and have too much slope for outsiders to take all the risk. It happened a few years ago at Sunningdale during Open qualifying, play had to be stopped and the pin moved. Talking to members they'd never have put the pin where it was.
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Jim,
Sounds like a wager. Tiger putted about as well as I've ever seen him in his singles match. I suppose this was just one of those days where he was feeling it and he still hasn't proven he can do it for 72 holes etc. etc. But combine that with the control of the new swing he exhibited and finally some confidence on the surgically repaired knee and if I were one of the haters I might not be eating crow yet, but I'd be plucking it's wings and buttering up the chafing dish...Not only will he win another major, I'd take 2-1 he does it next year...
P.S. IMO the course made a marginally interesting event must watch TV.
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The golf course was definitely a star. The old standards of classic architecture were in force.... understanding the correct positions, angles, slopes, knowing where you couldn't miss. Unpredictability of what your ball will do if you are hitting out of the rough.
It is a shame we'll never see a US or a British Open here because it obviously lacks jurisdiction to do so. But as a course is it so worthy of a championship of such significance.
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Is there anyone that thinks Tiger will never win again?
I doubt he wins another major.
Even after watching him today? Looked like the Tiger of old.
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Didn't Tiger say it was a tip from Furyk that got his putting going? Whatever, he was on the money in the final match.
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Is there anyone that thinks Tiger will never win again?
I doubt he wins another major.
Even after watching him today? Looked like the Tiger of old.
As long as he's wearing those terrible shoes, he'll never be the Tiger of old in my eyes.
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Craig S. -
In his interview after this singles match, Tiger gave credit to Steve Stricker for helping his putting.
DT
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Tiger loses three of his five matches including one by a record margin, shoots a couple under in the singles and that means "he's back!"? Wow.
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I thought the TV presentation was ... get this ... "better than most" , which helped make this the first time--for me--that the golf course over-shadowed the competition. What a spectacular place with some of the coolest greens I've seen on TV! I'm a professional golf junkie, but I was glued to the TV to see the course. Maybe I'm officially a nerd now?
I'm one that has Tiger not winning again. In fact, I've had an even money bet for the last 18 months with two friends that David Duval, John Daly, Jesper Parnevik, or Calc wins on the PGA Tour before Tiger. I still like my bet.
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Tiger loses three of his five matches including one by a record margin, shoots a couple under in the singles and that means "he's back!"? Wow.
well said
I think he'll win again, probably even at least 1 major, but lets not get carried away just yet
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. In fact, I've had an even money bet for the last 18 months with two friends that David Duval, John Daly, Jesper Parnevik, or Calc wins on the PGA Tour before Tiger. I still like my bet
hmmmmmmmmm..
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I'm one that has Tiger not winning again. In fact, I've had an even money bet for the last 18 months with two friends that David Duval, John Daly, Jesper Parnevik, or Calc wins on the PGA Tour before Tiger. I still like my bet.
Want some more action on that?
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I'm one that has Tiger not winning again. In fact, I've had an even money bet for the last 18 months with two friends that David Duval, John Daly, Jesper Parnevik, or Calc wins on the PGA Tour before Tiger. I still like my bet.
Want some more action on that?
I want in too.
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I still don't think Tiger has four rounds in him, but Duval and Daly's prospects were much brighter 18 months ago than they are today. Calc won't play many more events and Parnevik is screwed unless he can get the planets to line up and the moon phase to shift slightly.
But for the proverbial "$hits and giggles" I will entertain some additional action. Send me a PM and we'll get something squared up. :)
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I still don't think Tiger has four rounds in him, but Duval and Daly's prospects were much brighter 18 months ago than they are today. Calc won't play many more events and Parnevik is screwed unless he can get the planets to line up and the moon phase to shift slightly.
But for the proverbial "$hits and giggles" I will entertain some additional action. Send me a PM and we'll get something squared up. :)
I'd bet my right nut Tiger wins again on tour.
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I want nothing to do with your right nut Sam. I was thinking of something like dinner in South Jersey next time you're out this way. :) The problem with this bet is my action here has no timeline--so when all five don't win there's no action.
I'm willing to set something up for 2012 if you're so confidant that Mr. Woods can again begin making 10 footers with any regularity.
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I want nothing to do with your right nut Sam. I was thinking of something like dinner in South Jersey next time you're out this way. :) The problem with this bet is my action here has no timeline--so when all five don't win there's no action.
I'm willing to set something up for 2012 if you're so confidant that Mr. Woods can again begin making 10 footers with any regularity.
I won't be in Jersey next year unless I win the lottery or bang a Hilton sister. Come to 5th Major and we can throw a steak dinner on it.
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I'm rooting for you on both options Sam!
I'm a definite maybe. With a 4 and 2 year old, the idea of summer golf trips seem to raise the ire of my wife. But I'm good.
I may be in Houston several times next year. If I don't make the 5th Major, perhaps all you can drink margaritas at Ninfa's (sp?) could be arranged.
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I'm rooting for you on both options Sam!
I'm a definite maybe. With a 4 and 2 year old, the idea of summer golf trips seem to raise the ire of my wife. But I'm good.
I may be in Houston several times next year. If I don't make the 5th Major, perhaps all you can drink margaritas at Ninfa's (sp?) could be arranged.
We might be onto something, that would work perfectly, Kyle can get in on it.
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Tiger loses three of his five matches including one by a record margin, shoots a couple under in the singles and that means "he's back!"? Wow.
Come on, lets give a little credit where credit is due. He was four or five under after eleven holes on a day when the golf course was winning in every direction, he showed his old nerves of steel and way out played the field of twenty three top players. He had some head problems, he had some physical problems and he also lost some comfidense as a result. He showed me that he still has it and once that confidense comes back, no one will touch him. He will win another a major and I suspect he will be number one again by this time next year. What was he going into this tournamnet 8-1 odds to win at Augusta. I suspect those odds will be dropping after his final day performance.
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Is there anyone that thinks Tiger will never win again?
I doubt he wins another major.
Even after watching him today? Looked like the Tiger of old.
I didn't watch the PC. Besides the points Scott Warren and Jason Walker made, I don't think the Presidents Cup gives any sign of how golfers will play on tour or in the majors. Same with the Ryder Cup. The format and pressures are too different.
I think Tiger is damaged goods, and has been ever since shortly after his accident. Physically and maybe more important, emotionally. The way he handled his public outing was the exact opposite of what he needed to do, if he wanted to keep his competitive fires burning.
It is a shame we'll never see a US or a British Open here because it obviously lacks jurisdiction to do so.
Is that true about the British? I thought technically it could be played outside the British Isles.
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My guess is the Open Championship could be played anywhere the R&A has jurisdiction so that's USA and Mexico are out.
Going to Ireland is extremely unlikely so I wouldn't hold my breath on Oz!
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Randy:
Come on, lets give a little credit where credit is due. He was four or five under after eleven holes on a day when the golf course was winning in every direction, he showed his old nerves of steel and way out played the field of twenty three top players. He had some head problems, he had some physical problems and he also lost some comfidense as a result. He showed me that he still has it and once that confidense comes back, no one will touch him.
That's fair, he did play very well on Sunday. Better than Furyk played all week, though? He deserves credit, but I think it needs to be measured.
On Saturday he was in the 15th fairway and hit an iron so far left it was almost over the 18th tee. He missed a number of near-gimme putts.
And let's be honest, his Sunday demolition was against the world #49, who has three US Tour wins and has never finished top 10 at a major.
I'm obviously playing it up a little bit -- but the point is that we're talking about the greatest player in the world ascending back to the throne, I think we need something more than a 4&3 win in a low-pressure situation on the back of three fairly poor days' golf to re-ordain him.
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Let's keep this in perspective.
He putted like crap Thursday, Friday and Saturday en route to losing three of four matches.
He looked good at The Lakes a week ago, but had a nightmare moving day that consisted of him moonwalking backwards out of the lead, then bogeyed two eagle/birdie holes on the back nine Sunday to put himself out of contention.
Those with an enormous horn for Tiger have been telling us since the 2010 Masters that he will make his doubters look stupid, that 19 majors is still odds-on and that he still has game that no one else has.
That last bit may well be true, but he has done nothing to prove he is capable of accessing it for four consecutive days. In two years, nothing.
If I had a dollar for every time Tiger's play has allegedly -- in his fanboys' eyes -- announced "he's back!" since Thanksgiving 2009, I'd be a rich man. He might well return to the dominant force he used to be, but as it is he's just a streaky, aging, injury-prone golfer who hasn't won in two years.
I'm not betting against him winning a major in 2012, but by the same token he has done little to convince me I'd want to bet on him winning one, either.
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Well said Scott, the rush to proclaim him 'back' is nauseating. There have been some positive signs during the last two weeks, but also some very troubling ones.
I expect that he'll win again next year, and might even win more majors before he's done. But the mountain to climb for him to be truly 'back' - which means being the dominant number 1 who wins 5-9 times a year - is absolutely enormous.
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I'm sure you're correct that the PGA Tour held all the power in the daily selection of pin placements. Do you think that they would have thought up their own pin placements, or have worked mainly from a list of recommended options from the Super?
Warwick
sorry we didn't catch up - the car parking on the final day was quite tedious, and our plans went out the window.
On Saturday morning, I was in the stand behind 7W (#5 par 3) before play. The hole was being cut for the morning play, and the hole location for the afternoon was being finalised.
First, the hole cutting process. Location was front left, which yielded a few two's. The young greenkeeper cut the start of the hole, enough for the hole cutter to stand by itself. He then stood back and looked at the orientation of the hole cutter to the ground, from all angles. Once satisfied that the hole was going to be cut at the right angle, and only then, did he cut the actual hole. He has a bag of tricks with him to perform all sorts of other actions necessary to finish the hole. It probably took close to 10 minutes to cut the hole, and fill the old hole evenly. It might have been 5 minutes, but it was closer to 10 minutes in my mind.
Second, the hole selection process. This is probably the hole finalisation process, as I expect the general hole location has been decided by others (mt presumption here, no actual knowledge). There were two people involved. I assume the pin was cut in the Saturday afternoon round at front right. A senior greenkeeper (over 40 years old - could be one of the assistants to the Head Greenkeeper) had a putter and a few balls, which he was playing from all angles to a likely hole. An official (shirt and tie man) had a hole marker which the Greenkeeper played to. They looked at the hole from all angles, moved the possible hole marker by a foot or so, tried again a few putts, then moved it back 6 inches or so. This process took the same time as the hole cutting. I am not sure who made the final decision on the exact hole location - greenstaff or official. I think the official may have had final say, as he had the hole marker.
I wish I has seen the process on Friday when the wind was up, from the north.
I spent most of my time on Sunday watching holes 2 (4 west), 3 (5 west) and then 12 (2 east). I saw Bubba and Jason Day putt off the green, and saw Phil take plenty before conceding.
As you would have seen Warwick, Yo Ishikawa fell victim to the false front and the frontt pin on 5 west with his tee shot, failed to get to the green and then played a good third just beyond the pin. Bubba had two putts to win, and putted off the green! A good recovery but a poor putt lost the hole for Bubba.
The 2 east green sits on top of a hill, and the wind was blowing strongly up the hill. There was a lot of backing away from putts as the gusts came through, especially in the earlier groups. Very challenging, exposed green.
Personally, I would have preferred to see the pins a metre or so further from the edge. However, it was match play and not stroke play, so the pins can be a little more challenging.
James B
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I joined GCA in August and this thread is exactly why I did. I have never been to Australia and to be honest, I have really never investigated the world of Australian golf and shame on me. I know what I have been missing and I will spend my winter here in New Hampshire researching all I can about golf in Australia. Can anyone of you kind gentlmen recommend books or websites that would aid in my education.
I have been following this thread intently since the start of the Presidents Cup and I would like to thank all of you gentlemen in the know for the photos, info and opinions.
Really great stuff, very impressed with the knowledge and experience of my fellow members!!
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Pete,
Darius Oliver's Planet Golf and the World Atlas of Golf are a great place to start. Not to mention Ran's reviews on the Courses By Country section of this website and the forum itself, a few great old threads on RM if you use the search function (and it chooses to oblige).
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Scott
Thanks, appreciate the info. This PC was my intro to RM. I've been driving my wife Carol nuts with my comments on the course. Just spectacular!!
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Scott,
I'm not saying Tiger's all the way back, but the main reason he lost the first 3 matches was because Stricker and Johnson gagged it around. As Johnny Miller said, playing as Tiger's partner seems to be a tough gig. And guess what, the PGA tour ain't a team event...How many errant shots did you see him hit all week? How good does his swing look now? Now that he seems to have the swing mechanics grooved and the knee fully rehabbed and can focus on sharpening the world's best short game and mental game we'll see how everyone who thinks that getting caught with his drawers down translates directly to a shaky putter is left...Two weeks ago everyone was bitching about how he didn't deserve a captain's pick, then but for one errant round he would have walked away with the Aussie Open and a week later he lights up a brutal RM in singles. A guy who's won 14 majors and 77 (?) tour events and it's just a flash in the pan? Don't think so.
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Now that he seems to have the swing mechanics grooved and the knee fully rehabbed
Someone who has had the amount of surgery on his leg that Woods has had will never be fully rehabbed. Especially if they keep running.
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Jud:
I'm not saying Tiger's all the way back, but the main reason he lost the first 3 matches was because Stricker and Johnson gagged it around.
That's not true, Jud. Friday afternoon he came to the 16th hole locked in a tight one with Day and Badds and missed his drive about 40 yards left, then dumped his approach in the sand.
17th he gassed his approach long, off the green and above the hole.
18th he knocked his approached 20 yards long, leaving a low-percentage shot at a chip-in to try to halve the match.
He did not play those three crucial holes at all wisely and did not execute well.
That all came after he left himself a great look at birdie on 12 and never looked like holing it.
Saturday afternoon he again went to water facing Kim and Yang, missing plenty of crucial putts down the stretch.
How many errant shots did you see him hit all week? How good does his swing look now?
See above. He missed plenty of shots, and -- importantly -- he missed them when the pressure was on and the stakes were high.
Two weeks ago everyone was bitching about how he didn't deserve a captain's pick, then but for one errant round he would have walked away with the Aussie Open and a week later he lights up a brutal RM in singles.
This is exactly the new Tiger, though. He played horribly on Saturday at The Lakes, starting at the first where he had 80m to a fairly accessable pin and went long, over the ridge and down near the water, which is exactly where you don't want to hit it there -- bogey. 2nd hole he had a perfect angle in and hit it over the back, again the worst place to miss a back right pin -- bogey. Third hole he made a third straight bogey.
Then on Sunday he comes to the 280m, downhill 13th, fairway 60m wide and drives it 40m right, got blessed and stayed dry, tried a low % flop that hit trees and remarkably stayed dry again, missed the green again from about 50m away and got up and down for a bogey. Horrible, horrible golf.
A guy who's won 14 majors and 77 (?) tour events and it's just a flash in the pan? Don't think so.
Not at all a flash in the pan. He had 11 amazing years from '97 to '08 and if you cut his day's play nowadays into a two-minute highlights reel there is enough there to impress you, but the 2011 model Tiger Woods makes errors -- and big ones -- when the early 2000s Tiger thrived.
The current model Tiger doesn't put four consistent rounds together in a week.
No one is saying he isn't a good golfer, a great, one of the best to have lived and still among the most skillful handful on earth, but he isn't the golfer he once was and -- despite hearing for two years that he just needs some more "reps", and that he is "getting close to how Hank and now Sean want him to be and that his knee feels better than ever... we are still yet to see any evidence of a legitimate resurgence.
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Scott,
I am willing to excuse the misses and the odd bad round as being due to not being fully comfortable with his new swing and lack of match practice.
I see no reason why consistency will not come naturally in the next few months.
He played 3 really good rounds at The Lakes and two really good rounds to finish up at Royal Melbourne.
He isn't 'back' yet, but a good gambling man would see his rounds as a sign of good things to come and bet accordingly, IMO.
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David
I don't recall him using the driver too much at RM (where one can get away with some width) or The Lakes ?
It will be interesting as to how he starts the Tour next year as a 36 year old....
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That is a good point, Kevin, the driver could be his nemisis although is course management is so good that he can get around without using it if need be.
36 is a good age to be playing on tour, though. Prime years.
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Fantastic event. Validates my decision to flee down under when things hit the fan up here... :)
If only there were some way to get to the other side of the world in a reasonable timeframe. Maybe something that could transport you there in a day or so. I've heard rumors, but haven't seen anything concrete yet. Maybe we're just behind here in the Burgh.
Well said Scott, the rush to proclaim him 'back' is nauseating.
I can sympathize with this. I was only half paying attention to the announcers, but I would swear at one point Miller said something like "he's starting to look like Tiger 2000". That's a joke.
Still, his play was extremely encouraging to his fans - a lot of really nice chipping and putting and bunker shots in particular, especially in the clutch. I do think he is close to returning to standard Tiger, but he'll never be Tiger 2K (or Tiger 05-07) again.
Can anyone of you kind gentlmen recommend books or websites that would aid in my education.
Welcome, Pete, nice post. You want to go to Paul Daley's website, Fullswing Golf Services (http://www.fullswinggolf.com.au/). Paul has the best series of books on golf course architecture - with a good bit of it on Australian golf in particular - available. He's also a great guy. He used to post on here, haven't seen him post in a long time. Hope he's well.
The book available from Barnbougle Dunes is one of the very best course books I've ever seen, you might want to google their site and buy it. It's very reasonable (even more so when you get it as a gift from a good gca friend, thanks Ed!).
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I joined GCA in August and this thread is exactly why I did. I have never been to Australia and to be honest, I have really never investigated the world of Australian golf and shame on me. I know what I have been missing and I will spend my winter here in New Hampshire researching all I can about golf in Australia. Can anyone of you kind gentlmen recommend books or websites that would aid in my education.
I have been following this thread intently since the start of the Presidents Cup and I would like to thank all of you gentlemen in the know for the photos, info and opinions.
Really great stuff, very impressed with the knowledge and experience of my fellow members!!
Pete, when nyou're up to your backside in snow in New Hampshire, it's midsummer in Australia! ;D
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Randy:
Come on, lets give a little credit where credit is due. He was four or five under after eleven holes on a day when the golf course was winning in every direction, he showed his old nerves of steel and way out played the field of twenty three top players. He had some head problems, he had some physical problems and he also lost some comfidense as a result. He showed me that he still has it and once that confidense comes back, no one will touch him.
And let's be honest, his Sunday demolition was against the world #49, who has three US Tour wins and has never finished top 10 at a major.
Scott it easy to look at things how you want, like pointing out how he won against number 49 in the world. I look at it from another point of view. We all agree the course was fantastic and the set up fantastic and was playing extremly hard. He shot five under through 13 holes and finsihed five under through fifteen holes, nobody in the field came close to that. He made all but one clutch putt on Sunday. Saturday he played well just lipping out all day and got corrected by making a slight adjustment. I am not a big Tiger fan only when it comes to what he has done for bringig the game into more peoples living room. I lost a dollar to my wife during the tournament, I said he would roll it off the green on his second putt on the third hole and my wife said no. I just feel if his knees hold out and our better the rest will fall into place. You don´t smoke the competition for ten years and remain number one in the world and lose all that talent over night. Its there and he showed its still there. When in any sport has someone dominated for ten years or more? If you would have asked me before the tournament, I would have said your guess is as good as mine if he will win again. But seeing how he managed his game, starting with an iron off the first tee and making one putt after another on those greens and shooting five under in thirteen holes on that course...I can´t help but feel if his knee holds out, he will win again, he is in his prime. His swing use to put the kneee through the test, I wonder if his swing has been altered to correct that. I have no idea but it was an outstanding round on an outstanding golf course. We will jus have to wait and see but hopefully I will be aorund come April and we can debate some more and one of us will be able to tell the other....I told you so! But give me the four majors next year, I suspect he will win one of them.
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I'm sure you're correct that the PGA Tour held all the power in the daily selection of pin placements. Do you think that they would have thought up their own pin placements, or have worked mainly from a list of recommended options from the Super?
Warwick
sorry we didn't catch up - the car parking on the final day was quite tedious, and our plans went out the window.
On Saturday morning, I was in the stand behind 7W (#5 par 3) before play. The hole was being cut for the morning play, and the hole location for the afternoon was being finalised.
First, the hole cutting process. Location was front left, which yielded a few two's. The young greenkeeper cut the start of the hole, enough for the hole cutter to stand by itself. He then stood back and looked at the orientation of the hole cutter to the ground, from all angles. Once satisfied that the hole was going to be cut at the right angle, and only then, did he cut the actual hole. He has a bag of tricks with him to perform all sorts of other actions necessary to finish the hole. It probably took close to 10 minutes to cut the hole, and fill the old hole evenly. It might have been 5 minutes, but it was closer to 10 minutes in my mind.
Second, the hole selection process. This is probably the hole finalisation process, as I expect the general hole location has been decided by others (mt presumption here, no actual knowledge). There were two people involved. I assume the pin was cut in the Saturday afternoon round at front right. A senior greenkeeper (over 40 years old - could be one of the assistants to the Head Greenkeeper) had a putter and a few balls, which he was playing from all angles to a likely hole. An official (shirt and tie man) had a hole marker which the Greenkeeper played to. They looked at the hole from all angles, moved the possible hole marker by a foot or so, tried again a few putts, then moved it back 6 inches or so. This process took the same time as the hole cutting. I am not sure who made the final decision on the exact hole location - greenstaff or official. I think the official may have had final say, as he had the hole marker.
I wish I has seen the process on Friday when the wind was up, from the north.
I spent most of my time on Sunday watching holes 2 (4 west), 3 (5 west) and then 12 (2 east). I saw Bubba and Jason Day putt off the green, and saw Phil take plenty before conceding.
Personally, I would have preferred to see the pins a metre or so further from the edge. However, it was match play and not stroke play, so the pins can be a little more challenging.
James B
James,
It's great that you obviously had a terrific time this week. Sunday was a bit hectic, but we'll meet up another time. I did look for you in the 3w grandstand as my group came through, but amazingly that hat-sleeves colour combo was difficult to spot!
Thanks for a terrific description of the hole creation process. I didn't see that procedure, but observed a subsequent procedure: well after the holes were cut (maybe 1-2 hours before play) two carts of uniformed PGA officials, 6 or 7 of them including one of their most senior guys on site, drove from hole to hole examining each pin location. They didn't use a tape measure, but compared the locations to a diagram and looked very closely at the hole from all angles.
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If you guys put any other players under the scrutiny every hole like you do with Tiger, then nobody is ever going to win a major.
Golf is by nature a streaky game. For Tiger, I want to see him play well when he is hitting a lot of drivers. That has been his bugaboo.
Otherwise, when he putts well, he will win. When he doesn't, he won't.