Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: JC Jones on November 14, 2011, 06:07:43 PM
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Per Colton's blog.
Here's hoping it stays open for a long time.
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Per Colton's blog.
Here's hoping it stays open for a long time.
:( :( :(
May it find the right suitor!
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Thanks JC. It's definitely an unfortunate thing for a number of people who have poured a lot financially and emotionally into the club, but hopefully it will come out on the other side better than ever. I doubt a course as good as Ballyneal would just grow over. I'm searching my couch cushions for a couple mill.
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Wow, how does that happen to a place like Ballyneal.
I hope the club comes through this.
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Foreclosure as in the bank took title or some sort of bankruptcy?
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Jim
Any word if there are any potetial buyers?
I got 5 on it
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Ballyneal is a great place with great people - one of the very best. While it will probably be a bit bumpy and uncertain, I hope things will work out.
Hang in there guys. Never lose the emotion and loyalty to a great place.
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Yikes.
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Aargh. Fingers crossed.
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Any details? How much are they indebted? Maybe the bank will take a haircut. Not that it is all comparable but my club went under a year ago and we owed almost 4 million. I negotiated the bank, Bank of America, down to 1 million but the membership balked at buying it, I didnt see enough upside and did not have enough working capital as well as money for necesssary improvements on top of the purchase price to buy it myself. Maybe a mistake long term but didn't want to be strapped in this economy and the horrible weather this year would have made it rough first year. They eventually sold the mortgage to some local investors for 1.565 million.
Dan
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Anyone know how this will effect the building of the second course???
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That course isn't going anywhere. It's too good. And has too many great people. I wish all things Ballyneal the best.
I would also love to not see all the gory details about outstanding debt, second courses, potential courses of action to "rescue" the club, employee issues, etc. all thrown out here. I just think it's the prudent thing to do.
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this sucks
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NOOOOOOO!!!!
Hopefully someone swoops in and saves the day - this is one course that CANNOT be allowed to go night night - it's too good, and such a special place.
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JR Potts,
The plan to save the club would be to have a bunch of people join it.
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Ballyneal the golf course, will survive this. Ballyneal the club, will probably experience a few changes.
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I am shocked to hear this. Does someone have a reliable source to validate this?
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I am shocked to hear this. Does someone have a reliable source to validate this?
For Ballyneal I think Jim is a great source.
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I am shocked to hear this. Does someone have a reliable source to validate this?
I certainly wouldn't make this up.
I appreciate the support that many have offered up here and via PM. I can honestly say this: even if I never play another round at Ballyneal, it would've been totally worth it. Knowing what I know now, I still would signed that check back in 2008 (actually, I would've likely paid twice as much). The course is that good, the club is that special and the people I've met over the past 3+ years (including Ben Cox) are that priceless.
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Jim,
On a random note, I think I met you out there this summer during the infamous hail storm....we only had the chance to play 6 holes, but they were the best 6 I had seen this year. We were all in the basement of the clubhouse finishing our meals....I will never forget seeing Rupert's face when the hail was coming down...my heart just broke knowing what it was doing to his greens.
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Sad.
I have never been, but the pictures capture my imagination like few others.
This course is too special to just go dark.
I suspect Don is correct.
Hang in there Jim!
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This club will make it but no doubt go through some hard times along the road. I will offer a silent prayer that "The Donald" stays far far away. My heart goes out to the member, but most of all the staff, keep your heads up.
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I doubt that anyone is as sorry to see this as I am, but it's probably been inevitable since the start of the recession. Not enough members, not enough visitors, too much debt.
I hope that no one here tries to sort out things out publicly, since there maybe as many interested parties as there are members. All of the debt is privately held, but that may make it harder to sort out, and not easier. A bank would have an immediate interest to sell at whatever price it could get, but the various factions here all have their own ideas on what to do. I am not interested in playing favorites in any of that, since my sole priority is to try and help the eventual owner succeed and preserve the course. [I'm sure Rupert thinks I didn't do enough in that regard, and I'm sorry if that's the case, even though that story is just as complicated as the members' stories.]
As Jim Colton said in his blog, the people I feel for the most are Dave Hensley and Matt Payne, who have done tremendous work to make the golf course what it is, and who currently have no idea where their futures lie. Hopefully, it's still at Ballyneal.
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From a one time visitor,
Best wishes to all the members and the people who work there. My memories are of a fantastic course, staff and caddies who could not have been more courteous and taking a genuine interest in making the experience of visiting as good as possible. Lastly the members who have great pride in their club and are prepared to share it with outsiders.
Good luck for the future, the golf world is a better place for having Ballyneal.
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I hope that no one here tries to sort out things out publicly,
Tom,
I have never been to Ballyneal but obviously I know a few members. You must have skipped the Logic 101 class at Cornell, but if you the architect on the project does not want things sorted out publicly on Ballyneal, it might be best if YOU NOT RESPOND PUBLICLY. ::)
Mike Sweeney
Friend of Ballyneal
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Definitely a bummer.
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Bummer. Can't imagine that a course this good will not get a second lease on life though. Hell I'd buy it if I had the cash. And a shout out to Matt who went out of his way to make our stay enjoyable.
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I hope that no one here tries to sort out things out publicly,
Tom,
I have never been to Ballyneal but obviously I know a few members. You must have skipped the Logic 101 class at Cornell, but if you the architect on the project does not want things sorted out publicly on Ballyneal, it might be best if YOU NOT RESPOND PUBLICLY. ::)
Mike Sweeney
Friend of Ballyneal
methinks if Tom didnt ask people not to discuss, some probably would do so
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Any details? How much are they indebted? Maybe the bank will take a haircut. Not that it is all comparable but my club went under a year ago and we owed almost 4 million. I negotiated the bank, Bank of America, down to 1 million but the membership balked at buying it, I didnt see enough upside and did not have enough working capital as well as money for necesssary improvements on top of the purchase price to buy it myself. Maybe a mistake long term but didn't want to be strapped in this economy and the horrible weather this year would have made it rough first year. They eventually sold the mortgage to some local investors for 1.565 million.
Dan
What lesson can be gleened from this? That club members looked at what they had and wouldn't pony up $1 Million to own it? It would be interesting to know the replacement cost of the club and how horrific the financials must have been.
And what a turnabout from the days not so long ago when the management companies were putting REITS together to buy packages of golf courses. I am aware of a wonderful local course which gets around 40,000 annual rounds, cost upwards $8 Million to build and can be had for around $3. 2010, a good year operationally, the management company squeezed $100,000 NOI (including depreciation, before debt service) and has no interest in owning the property.
I understand Tom Doak's desire to keep the details to a minimum. Bad information, rumors, hurt feelings and sensitivities help no one. However, knowing the debt and what might be required to acquire the club after foreclosure might be helpful in getting a white knight interested (I come from the school that very wide exposure to potential investors is much better for most stakeholders than hush-hush backroom deals). Who knows, if the course is as good as everyone here says it is, maybe the site can birth the new ownership group (something about putting money where the mouth is).
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How is the pheasant hunting in the area? Is the hunting angle viable? Can it add value, specially during the slow winter months?
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I hope that no one here tries to sort out things out publicly, since there maybe as many interested parties as there are members. All of the debt is privately held, but that may make it harder to sort out, and not easier. A bank would have an immediate interest to sell at whatever price it could get, but the various factions here all have their own ideas on what to do.
Tom -
If the debt is privately held as you say, then the deal for the new owners is likely already done (or in place waiting for the paperwork).
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Sad news indeed. A state of the industry I am afraid.
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If Ballyneal is in foreclosure, there are probably public records with a lot of information. That is what interested parties should be sorting out, not speculating.
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As a member or potential member, I would prefer a club with the Honors Course model.
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Excuse me as I go clean-up the vomit!
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Excuse me as I go clean-up the vomit!
what do you mean?
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Any details? How much are they indebted? Maybe the bank will take a haircut. Not that it is all comparable but my club went under a year ago and we owed almost 4 million. I negotiated the bank, Bank of America, down to 1 million but the membership balked at buying it, I didnt see enough upside and did not have enough working capital as well as money for necesssary improvements on top of the purchase price to buy it myself. Maybe a mistake long term but didn't want to be strapped in this economy and the horrible weather this year would have made it rough first year. They eventually sold the mortgage to some local investors for 1.565 million.
Dan
What lesson can be gleened from this? That club members looked at what they had and wouldn't pony up $1 Million to own it? It would be interesting to know the replacement cost of the club and how horrific the financials must have been.
And what a turnabout from the days not so long ago when the management companies were putting REITS together to buy packages of golf courses. I am aware of a wonderful local course which gets around 40,000 annual rounds, cost upwards $8 Million to build and can be had for around $3. 2010, a good year operationally, the management company squeezed $100,000 NOI (including depreciation, before debt service) and has no interest in Downing the property.
I understand Tom Doak's desire to keep the details to a minimum. Bad information, rumors, hurt feelings and sensitivities help no one. However, knowing the debt and what might be required to acquire the club after foreclosure might be helpful in getting a white knight interested (I come from the school that very wide exposure to potential investors is much better for most stakeholders than hush-hush backroom deals). Who knows, if the course is as good as everyone here says it is, maybe the site can birth the new ownership group (something about putting money where the mouth is).
The land is in a desirable residential area but the entire 260 acres isn't buildable. The club was just mismanaged over the years to a point where I as President tookover when foreclosure was looming. I got the bank to give me a year to sort it out and felt the 1,000,000 price was more than fair. Just didn't couldn't get a widespread commitment from the membership. Several groups of members were given the opportunity before the mortgage sale but all tried to get an even better deal and as the bank got pissed they raised the price &100k every two weeks. That ruffled the feathers of any perspective buyers and it became a mess and the membership fell apart.
I got membership form 200 to 250 and without debt service we were in the black but the debt service on 4 million was just to big for the revenue which was 2 millionish. The club had a new watering system and made many other improvements on the course although the buildings were just ok. As a member owned place with no debt I think we would have been successful as I would have been able to drop dues considerably.
I think this is just a sign that outside of metro area where there is more wealth Private golf is in trouble.
BTW for those interested the club is Normanside Country Club www.normanside.com. I'll be happy to answer any other questions for the benefit of others of what I learned. I remained a member at it is run a a semi private.
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A bank would have an immediate interest to sell at whatever price it could get
Stick to building golf courses.
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Very sad to hear this. Hopefully the new owners can keep the golf course open and hopefully they keep some of the wonderful staff like Matt on board.
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very very sad new..please let it all be sorted..so sorry for Rupert et al..whohave tried to make this magical place what it is.
A very very special place..great course great people..great atmosphere....lets hope for the best
please keep us all in the loop Jim....about anyprogress or heaven forbid otherwise.
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Maybe TOm Doak knows information that GCA does not. Maybe he wants to see the right thing done.
Stick to GOlf Design?????
Comment to him is basically unfair. I would suggest listen to him. Ben SIms' comment is wise as well.
Thank You Tom and Ben.
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what's the current membership #? what was the peak #?
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That decision will effectively be to either take it public or keep it private. My guess is public as the private attempt already failed.
Michael,
Colorado Golf, Stone Eagle and Dismal River are other courses built around the same time that had similar growing pains and seemed to come out of it stronger yet still private golf clubs. Mr. Doak had it right when he said the club failed because the amount of play could not support the debt level -- not a huge revelation in this day and age. Every business decision had to be made with this debt in mind. But the business model changes drastically when you remove the debt from the equation. A well-run, modest private club can work in Holyoke. That's what I'm hoping for and willing to support in the future.
Jim
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Jim:
You are right. Pete Dye is another club that has remained private. I deleted my post re: the possibility of going public.
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Michael,
With absolutely no inside knowledge whatsoever, I'd be willing to wager a trip to Ballyneal, Sand Hills and Dismal River that it survives as a private club. 8)
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Michael,
With absolutely no inside knowledge whatsoever, I'd be willing to wager a trip to Ballyneal, Sand Hills and Dismal River that it survives as a private club. 8)
A place that is as well-regarded as Ballyneal, I have to agree unless the debt is a ridiculous number.
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Sorry to hear it and I wish everyone there the best.
For whatever reason, I don't sense that Ballyneal is well-known to the golf community in Denver, the closest metropolitan area. Far more people are familiar with Sand Hills, despite the fact that Ballyneal is significantly closer. (Perhaps to the surprise of many here, neither are that well-known to the majority of golfers). I'm not saying that has anything to do with Ballyneal's current status, but I find it surprising.
If (big if) the model for Ballyneal were to change, would something like a Prairie Club (memberships plus resort play) work? How is Prairie Club doing, by the way? I'm not looking for dirt here, I'm just curious whether, to date, it's generally regarded as successful or struggling.
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Jud:
I am known to make a bad wager in my time - see my Vegas players card for proof. However, not even I would make that bet.
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I hope for BN it works out, I loved the place. The current state of Dismal River following what appears to be a very similar situation, seems to be very favorable. Here is hoping the same for BN.
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I too am grateful for the one visit I had to the place.
I'm not sure how these processes work under the covers, but here's to hoping it gets the most favorable treatment possible, and at the very least limited funds will be available to maintain whats there to a rudimentary level before it can be brought back. It would certainly be a shame to lose a gem of a course like this.
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This is sad news, but I am betting this course survives and eventually thrives. It is too good and already has a history in the golf world developing. It is my contention that The Ben Cox Marathon grows in stature over time and Ballyneal is linked to that wonderful event.
Let's cross our fingers and hope for the best. But like I said, I feel good the course will remain standing.
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I hope for BN it works out, I loved the place. The current state of Dismal River following what appears to be a very similar situation, seems to be very favorable. Here is hoping the same for BN.
Dismal never went through foreclosure. I'm sorry for everyone who is suffering though this trying event but feel I should recognize those who protected my equity during difficult times.
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Maybe TOm Doak knows information that GCA does not. Maybe he wants to see the right thing done.
Stick to GOlf Design?????
Comment to him is basically unfair. I would suggest listen to him.
If I listened to him as a banker and sold every foreclosed asset (immediately) at any price I could get, I'd be out of a job and perhaps thrown in jail.
My comment was anything but unfair. Contrary to popular belief, banking isn't a charity. Though the bigs get seemingly limitless capital, the vast majority of banks actually need to have their loans repaid to stay in business. The cavalier attitude that people can just walk away from their obligations and the bank will happily take it in the shorts is incredibly frustrating to those who depend on people keeping their promises.
Doak (insert any architect) wants the golf course to stay open with the same architectural integrity it enjoys today. To think they care about who holds the debt is naive at best.
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Contrary to popular belief, banking isn't a charity.
Really? Seems like most of us have been working for free for the past 3 years... ;)
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Maybe TOm Doak knows information that GCA does not. Maybe he wants to see the right thing done.
Stick to GOlf Design?????
Comment to him is basically unfair. I would suggest listen to him.
If I listened to him as a banker and sold every foreclosed asset (immediately) at any price I could get, I'd be out of a job and perhaps thrown in jail.
My comment was anything but unfair. Contrary to popular belief, banking isn't a charity. Though the bigs get seemingly limitless capital, the vast majority of banks actually need to have their loans repaid to stay in business. The cavalier attitude that people can just walk away from their obligations and the bank will happily take it in the shorts is incredibly frustrating to those who depend on people keeping their promises.
Doak (insert any architect) wants the golf course to stay open with the same architectural integrity it enjoys today. To think they care about who holds the debt is naive at best.
Only on gca.com :P Our hearts are breaking for all the banksters.
I think Mr. Doak's comment was simply to point out when faced with a situation such as this, it is often easier and quicker dealing with a bank then it is a private investor.
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Maybe TOm Doak knows information that GCA does not. Maybe he wants to see the right thing done.
Stick to GOlf Design?????
Comment to him is basically unfair. I would suggest listen to him.
If I listened to him as a banker and sold every foreclosed asset (immediately) at any price I could get, I'd be out of a job and perhaps thrown in jail.
My comment was anything but unfair. Contrary to popular belief, banking isn't a charity. Though the bigs get seemingly limitless capital, the vast majority of banks actually need to have their loans repaid to stay in business. The cavalier attitude that people can just walk away from their obligations and the bank will happily take it in the shorts is incredibly frustrating to those who depend on people keeping their promises.
Doak (insert any architect) wants the golf course to stay open with the same architectural integrity it enjoys today. To think they care about who holds the debt is naive at best.
Only on gca.com :P Our hearts are breaking for all the banksters.
I could only hope/wish/dream that when/if I'm on the verge of financial ruin, the taxpayers will bail me out!! ;D
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:'(
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Clint, I do not think your "stick with building golf courses" is appropriate. I am sure that Tom has more insight into many aspects of this situation that we don't have.
My (tongue in cheek) comment referred to his notion that the debt holder should just take the immediate offer at any price. Debt restructure is a zero sum game.....no side deserves any more or less than perfect equilibrium. Even though debt holders (whether bank or private) are the boogey man - du jour, they still warrant a fair deal....not just what's in the best interest of the borrower. We get so worked up over losing a great golf course that we forget that the financing came from an entity that held up their end of the bargain and deserves remuneration. No matter what the idiots occupying wall st instead of their parent's basements say.
For what it's worth, Mr. Doak (who I respect fully) has reminded plenty of us to stick at playing golf courses and leave the designing to GCA's. From reading him, I doubt he'll lose much sleep by my comment.
Re: everyone's criticism of banks and financing companies, I will never complain when they actually are making loans - as in this case. My complaint currently is that they are borrowing money for nothing and instead of the intended effect of them making loans to spur the economy, they are hoarding it and making money off spreads.
Pretty sure banks make their spreads off loans....if not, I better get out of the business. The only thing today that raising deposits/liabilities and hoarding the cash does is stress capital ratios....it surely doesn't make money unless it's being reinvested in risk-weighted assets (loans). Plenty of people want a loan, but if their homes are underwater or their business is unprofitable (and looks like it will remain unprofitable) there just isn't much a lender can do.
That said, I'm smart enough to know when the torches and pitchforks are marching towards you it's probably time to bow out. I hope the situation w/ Ballyneal works out for everyone involved.
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Clint:
I stand in solidarity. However, despite what Tom said, the perception is that there are steals to be had when Banks are attempting to free up capital and liquidate their REO and I read Tom's comment to suggest that - nothing more.
Further, I can second the notion that private entities are much harder to work with than financial institutions. More often than not, private entites have a more vested interest into the collateral and often times, especially after paper has traded, actually want the collateral, not a pay-off.
Hope it works out for all. I'm bowing out with Clint.
JRP
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I don't understand the "deserves remuneration" comment
If you don't understand this, you are beyond help.
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I think Alec Baldwin hit this topic spot on in this clip when he was walking around one of the Occupy protest sites:
"You want the banks to do what the banks do.....but when the banks start throwing thier elbow in your eye socket...you want the SEC to throw the flag, but the SEC never throws the flag"
Go to the 2:00 Minute mark:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEnc7iak6ms
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I think Alec Baldwin hit this topic spot on in this clip when he was walking around one of the Occupy protest sites:
"You want the banks to do what the banks do.....but when the banks start throwing thier elbow in your eye socket...you want the SEC to throw the flag, but the SEC never throws the flag"
Go to the 2:00 Minute mark:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEnc7iak6ms
The only thing he hit was the ignorance button.
Do you have any idea how and why the Fed Reserve came about, Kalen? Listen to this and educate yourself.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8484911570371055528#
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Just did some costings.
If Colton was to play 3231 holes in a day, he could raise enough money to buy ballyneal.
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I think Alec Baldwin hit this topic spot on in this clip when he was walking around one of the Occupy protest sites:
"You want the banks to do what the banks do.....but when the banks start throwing thier elbow in your eye socket...you want the SEC to throw the flag, but the SEC never throws the flag"
Go to the 2:00 Minute mark:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEnc7iak6ms
The only thing he hit was the ignorance button.
Do you have any idea how and why the Fed Reserve came about, Kalen? Listen to this and educate yourself.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8484911570371055528#
Ha ha, you gotta be kidding. This guy is a bigger nut job than Ron Paul.
Griffin also pimped the idea that B-17 was the cure for cancer, which was debunked decades ago. So no thanks, I won't be taking my economic information from a proven fraud or be buying his conspiracy theories anytime soon....lol!!
I'm absolutely baffled at the type of garbage that's being tossed into the ring these days as "credible"
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4312930190281243507
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Ran, please delete this thread. Most of us know when to take comments here with a grain of salt. There might be vested parties involved in negotiations that take our comments at face value, as hard as that is to believe.
Mike
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Ran, please delete this thread. Most of us know when to take comments here with a grain of salt. There might be vested parties involved in negotiations that take our comments at face value, as hard as that is to believe.
Mike
Sounds like Bogey is working a deal! ;)
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Mike Hendren:
I deleted my posts. While I doubt that my conjencture on the situation may influence any person, I am very hopeful of the continued success of Ballyneal and am respectful of your's and other's wishes that likely know more than me about the circumstances there.
Good luck to everyone at Ballyneal. I hope to have the privilege of playing there some day.
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Thanks to all for being respectful of the club's privacy in this matter. You have all been kind.
Ballyneal is special for me, and may still be the finest golf course I have played.
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I've never done this before, but Ballyneal will be in my prayers.
John Kirk, I hope you play there for the remainder of your years.
Ballyneal is special.
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Before we invoke the deity, we might just trust that the members will be well represented by lawyers that will handle the next transition well.
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Before we invoke the deity, we might just trust that the members will be well represented by lawyers that will handle the next transition well.
Too late. :)
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Michael George-You have far exceeded the limit on deleted posts. Please go to your room. ;)
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:(
Hold it.. time out.. isn't it the third owner that makes a profit?
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This club will make it but no doubt go through some hard times along the road.
I will offer a silent prayer that "The Donald" stays far far away. My heart goes out to the member, but most of all the staff, keep your heads up.
Why ?
He might be the best thing that could happen to Ballyneal, except, no banks appear to be involved.
He runs a great operation, appreciates great golf courses and has the resources to continue operations.
And, I think he's smart enough to leave it as it is.
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This club will make it but no doubt go through some hard times along the road.
I will offer a silent prayer that "The Donald" stays far far away. My heart goes out to the member, but most of all the staff, keep your heads up.
Why ?
He might be the best thing that could happen to Ballyneal, except, no banks appear to be involved.
He runs a great operation, appreciates great golf courses and has the resources to continue operations.
And, I think he's smart enough to leave it as it is.
Certain courses just have that Trump feel, or potential feel (Doral). I don't think Ballyneal is his style, too remote.
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This club will make it but no doubt go through some hard times along the road.
I will offer a silent prayer that "The Donald" stays far far away. My heart goes out to the member, but most of all the staff, keep your heads up.
Why ?
He might be the best thing that could happen to Ballyneal, except, no banks appear to be involved.
He runs a great operation, appreciates great golf courses and has the resources to continue operations.
And, I think he's smart enough to leave it as it is.
Certain courses just have that Trump feel, or potential feel (Doral). I don't think Ballyneal is his style, too remote.
Ballyneal would be a spectacular addition to his club holdings, especially when you consider that if you're a member of one of his clubs, you get to play the others.
It's a perfect fit for him.
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Edit
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This thread saddens me. I too found the club and course to be a special place. I am sorry for the members and all those associated with the club. I hope this process goes down a path that creates as little pain as possible for all involved.
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Sad news indeed. A state of the industry I am afraid.
Ian,
Thanks for amending your original post. I am sorry that your feelings were hurt and hopefully you can now put this to rest. Tom Doak is clearly able to take care of himself.
Good luck in your new position.
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Michael George-You have far exceeded the limit on deleted posts. Please go to your room. ;)
Tim:
I don't think any of my posts were improper or controversial. However, if people effected by this situation don't want it discussed, then I don't want to be a part of it. Just trying to be respectful to the site and other members. Again, best of luck to Ballyneal's members.
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Foreclosure is a matter of public record. Respect (my take from some on here is do not discuss in public) is not an issue here, or is the sort of thing that its okay to talk about in hushed tones while drinking scotch and smoking a cigar? Honestly, folks on this site do get carried away at times.
Ciao
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okay to talk about in hushed tones while drinking scotch and smoking a cigar?
Sounds good. You buying? 8)
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Foreclosure is a matter of public record. Respect (my take from some on here is do not discuss in public) is not an issue here, or is the sort of thing that its okay to talk about in hushed tones while drinking scotch and smoking a cigar? Honestly, folks on this site do get carried away at times.
Ciao
Sean, only if wearing a smoking jacket!
I wish all the best for the members of Ballyneal and for Rupert and Jim. That's a special place and a great golf course.
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This club will make it but no doubt go through some hard times along the road.
I will offer a silent prayer that "The Donald" stays far far away. My heart goes out to the member, but most of all the staff, keep your heads up.
Ballyneal would be a spectacular addition to his club holdings, especially when you consider that if you're a member of one of his clubs, you get to play the others.
Perhaps the scariest words typed on this website ever.
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Foreclosure is a matter of public record. Respect (my take from some on here is do not discuss in public) is not an issue here, or is the sort of thing that its okay to talk about in hushed tones while drinking scotch and smoking a cigar? Honestly, folks on this site do get carried away at times.
Ciao
Agreed. All this talk of "respect," etc. is ridiculous. It isn't like anybody died.
Why does Ballyneal "deserve" any different treatment around here than any of the other courses that have had financial issues that we've discussed. Hell, Mike Whitaker posted Musgrove Mill's operating costs a while ago and nobody said boo to him.
It is sad to see Ballyneal struggling but lets keep a little bit of perspective here.
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Money can't buy taste, but it can buy minimalism? Actually pretty smart. Not sure someone like Tom would ever agree to work for someone like Mr. T at this point in his career unless he were given contractual carte blanche (yeah right), so he could buy one. Would actually be a pretty interesting litmus test for my personal biases but I think P. Craig has it pretty much nailed with regard to long term real estate value...
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Very sad indeed. Hope Rupert and the investors get things worked out. It's such a fantastic course with great members and staff!
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Foreclosure is a matter of public record. Respect (my take from some on here is do not discuss in public) is not an issue here, or is the sort of thing that its okay to talk about in hushed tones while drinking scotch and smoking a cigar? Honestly, folks on this site do get carried away at times.
Ciao
Agreed. All this talk of "respect," etc. is ridiculous. It isn't like anybody died.
Why does Ballyneal "deserve" any different treatment around here than any of the other courses that have had financial issues that we've discussed. Hell, Mike Whitaker posted Musgrove Mill's operating costs a while ago and nobody said boo to him.
It is sad to see Ballyneal struggling but lets keep a little bit of perspective here.
I know zero about the Ballyneal situation. Zero. But I do know how business negotiations work. Let's assume for the sake of argument, that the debt-holder isn't that sophisticated and doesn't know that much about golf club economics. Yet they check into this site and get the impression that they are about to become the prized owner of the piece of dirt that holds the earth together. Moreoever, there are wannanbe Big-Arse Petes posting here that are apparently willing and able to step in and pay top dollar for the greatest golf course in the world. Isn't it plausible that they might assume the best tactic is to sit around and do nothing, knowing that Jim Dandy will come to the rescue and pay top dollar? In that scenario, what happens to the golf course in the meantime?
I think everyones need to take a morning sip of shut-the-hell-up. There's a big difference between the economic value and intrinsic value of Ballyneal.
If Ran can delete the Penn State thread, I don't know why he won't delete this one.
Ran, pull the trigger.
Bogey
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I hope for BN it works out, I loved the place. The current state of Dismal River following what appears to be a very similar situation, seems to be very favorable. Here is hoping the same for BN.
Dismal never went through foreclosure. I'm sorry for everyone who is suffering though this trying event but feel I should recognize those who protected my equity during difficult times.
John, never meant to provide misinformation, so thanks for clarifying. TW
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Let's assume for the sake of argument, that the debt-holder isn't that sophisticated and doesn't know that much about golf club economics. Yet they check into this site and get the impression that they are about to become the prized owner of the piece of dirt that holds the earth together. Moreoever, there are wannanbe Big-Arse Petes posting here that are apparently willing and able to step in and pay top dollar for the greatest golf course in the world. Isn't it plausible that they might assume the best tactic is to sit around and do nothing, knowing that Jim Dandy will come to the rescue and pay top dollar? In that scenario, what happens to the golf course in the meantime?
I think everyones need to take a morning sip of shut-the-hell-up. There's a big difference between the economic value and intrinsic value of Ballyneal.
Bogey,
Couple of points:
1. Pretty much everyone here is rooting for BN to come out of this as a stronger club.
2. I think what Tom was hoping was that folks wouldn't air out actual facts and figures of any potential negotiations or personnel issues until they are in the public domain.
3. If one can't make the interest payments, one has to sell. If one can comfortably make those payments and wants to be unrealistic and stubborn, I don't think a couple of internet yahoos will sway them much one way or the other.
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I think everyone needs to take a morning sip of shut-the-hell-up.
I'm tempted to make a tagline change... :)
Best of luck to all parties involved.
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Foreclosure is a matter of public record. Respect (my take from some on here is do not discuss in public) is not an issue here, or is the sort of thing that its okay to talk about in hushed tones while drinking scotch and smoking a cigar? Honestly, folks on this site do get carried away at times.
Ciao
I think everyones need to take a morning sip of shut-the-hell-up. There's a big difference between the economic value and intrinsic value of Ballyneal.
Bogey
so much for people not talking about it per Tom's request ::)
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From time to time people on GCA have talked about opening up a "GCA National" golf club. Any possibilities here?
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Foreclosure is a matter of public record. Respect (my take from some on here is do not discuss in public) is not an issue here, or is the sort of thing that its okay to talk about in hushed tones while drinking scotch and smoking a cigar? Honestly, folks on this site do get carried away at times.
Ciao
Agreed. All this talk of "respect," etc. is ridiculous. It isn't like anybody died.
Why does Ballyneal "deserve" any different treatment around here than any of the other courses that have had financial issues that we've discussed. Hell, Mike Whitaker posted Musgrove Mill's operating costs a while ago and nobody said boo to him.
It is sad to see Ballyneal struggling but lets keep a little bit of perspective here.
I know zero about the Ballyneal situation. Zero. But I do know how business negotiations work. Let's assume for the sake of argument, that the debt-holder isn't that sophisticated and doesn't know that much about golf club economics. Yet they check into this site and get the impression that they are about to become the prized owner of the piece of dirt that holds the earth together. Moreoever, there are wannanbe Big-Arse Petes posting here that are apparently willing and able to step in and pay top dollar for the greatest golf course in the world. Isn't it plausible that they might assume the best tactic is to sit around and do nothing, knowing that Jim Dandy will come to the rescue and pay top dollar? In that scenario, what happens to the golf course in the meantime?
I think everyones need to take a morning sip of shut-the-hell-up. There's a big difference between the economic value and intrinsic value of Ballyneal.
If Ran can delete the Penn State thread, I don't know why he won't delete this one.
Ran, pull the trigger.
Bogey
Bogey
Relax. If would be buyers for Ballyneal pay attention to what people on this site say or if they think they have learned anything valuable from tnhis thread, then lord help us all. Don't get so uptight over pubic domain info. In fact, what info has been spilled other than Ballyneal is in foreclosure?
Ciao
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Foreclosure is a matter of public record. Respect (my take from some on here is do not discuss in public) is not an issue here, or is the sort of thing that its okay to talk about in hushed tones while drinking scotch and smoking a cigar? Honestly, folks on this site do get carried away at times.
Ciao
Agreed. All this talk of "respect," etc. is ridiculous. It isn't like anybody died.
Why does Ballyneal "deserve" any different treatment around here than any of the other courses that have had financial issues that we've discussed. Hell, Mike Whitaker posted Musgrove Mill's operating costs a while ago and nobody said boo to him.
It is sad to see Ballyneal struggling but lets keep a little bit of perspective here.
I know zero about the Ballyneal situation. Zero. But I do know how business negotiations work. Let's assume for the sake of argument, that the debt-holder isn't that sophisticated and doesn't know that much about golf club economics. Yet they check into this site and get the impression that they are about to become the prized owner of the piece of dirt that holds the earth together. Moreoever, there are wannanbe Big-Arse Petes posting here that are apparently willing and able to step in and pay top dollar for the greatest golf course in the world. Isn't it plausible that they might assume the best tactic is to sit around and do nothing, knowing that Jim Dandy will come to the rescue and pay top dollar? In that scenario, what happens to the golf course in the meantime?
I think everyones need to take a morning sip of shut-the-hell-up. There's a big difference between the economic value and intrinsic value of Ballyneal.
If Ran can delete the Penn State thread, I don't know why he won't delete this one.
Ran, pull the trigger.
Bogey
1. If you're going to quote me, at least address my questions.
2. Why the indignant rants when discussing the Ballyneal business model/failings and not when we discuss other courses?
3. Did you include yourself in "everyone"? ;D
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This club will make it but no doubt go through some hard times along the road.
I will offer a silent prayer that "The Donald" stays far far away. My heart goes out to the member, but most of all the staff, keep your heads up.
Why ?
He might be the best thing that could happen to Ballyneal, except, no banks appear to be involved.
He runs a great operation, appreciates great golf courses and has the resources to continue operations.
And, I think he's smart enough to leave it as it is.
C'mon Pat,
You know he would do something like this on a hole like 12... ;D
P.S. Yes I'm well aware my Photoshop skills are woefully inadequate! :-X
(http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q234/kbjames_70/golf/Ballyneal/BN12.jpg)
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Bogey,
I believe it may have been Brad Klein who said words to the effect that to the outside world, what's said on this site is mostly irrelevant.
I can't speak for Ran, but it's been my limited experience that he doesn't Prohibit relevant golf issues from being discussed.
Clubs across the country are experiencing great difficulties, and I suspect that more will close or consolidate.
I have heard nothing but great things about Ballyneal. One of my regrets is that I've yet to play it.
Obviously, everyone wants to see it remain a viable, if not vibrant, golf Course.
A related question is: how are the other "destination" courses faring ?
Might a "solution" or method for securing an infusion of cash be, to offer National memberships, at lower fees, based on residence distance from Holyoke, CO ?
Ie, would Mike Sweeney, Steve Lapper, TEPaul and others pay $ 500 to $ 1,000 per year to be National members outside of a 1,000 or 1,500 mile radius ? Get 500 or 1,000 of them and that's a nice income stream. Maybe $ 1,000 to $ 2,500 per year for those between 500 miles and 1,000 miles. In other words, tier the National membership based on milage, and provide National members with reduced privileges, no equity, and availability based on scheduling.
Allow these members to send unaccompanied guests, at a premium.
Part of the appeal of destination clubs is their remoteness, but that has a negative impact on utilization.
In other words, adopt a Pine Valley like operation.
PV has members from all over the world, but those members don't play every weekend, thus you can swell your member ranks with golfers who live a great distance from the club because they RARELY use the club, and usually have to pre-schedule their visits with the club.
They've been very successful in running their club and destination clubs should take note of how they do things.
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I'm compelled to ask: Exactly how many financially distressed golf clubs have been rescued by flippant scenarios tossed out by the members of this website? As a syndicate we're an abject failure.
I'm also compelled to ask: If you held the mortgage on Ballyneal, would you be monitoring this thread with interest?
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I believe it may have been Brad Klein who said words to the effect that to the outside world, what's said on this site is mostly irrelevant.
I think Tom Doak directly disagrees with that statement - based on his comments on the getting started thread.
And this is where Don Mahaffey and I first met, including many other business relationships.
this site may not impact "golf", but it does effect golf architecture as a business and an art
Cheers
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2. Why the indignant rants when discussing the Ballyneal business model/failings and not when we discuss other courses?
I can't answer why, definitively, however, two reasons come to mind as possibilities.
Ballyneal was kind of a GCA.com baby. Tom, leaked the first site visit before he even went. ('03?) And when he returned he posted a picture of the raw land. The randomness of the rolls combined with a sandy look, tugged at the souls of us gca.com veteran geek-o-philes.
The other reason is a humanistic one. It's likely poor form to discuss the financials of any private course, unless you have a capital interest. Using past poor form to justify current ones, ain't fly. Dig?
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Mr. Clayman,
I think your first reason is more likely correct than your second reason.
Bogey,
No. As Tom Doak has made abundantly clear, we don't know anything about the golf business and people don't really care what we have to say.
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Pat Mucci's idea on a National program makes sense to me. A place like Ballyneal needs a model where 2 visits a year seem like enough for a certain group of members. Giant initiation fees tend to get amortized into the costs so keeping those reasonable helps people take the leap. $1000-2000/year dues feels to me like what a 2x/year member from far away could handle for a young club like Ballyneal.
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Per Colton's blog.
Here's hoping it stays open for a long time.
I can not find this article on Colton's blog, of course I can only hold my breath so long.
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It is Part IV (Trump Colorado) of his "Dream Golf Weekend: Bandon" article...
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I think everyone needs to take a morning sip of shut-the-hell-up.
I'm tempted to make a tagline change... :)
(http://www.fairfaxunderground.com/forum/file.php?2,file=33120,filename=Shut_the_fuck_up.bmp)
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Per Colton's blog.
Here's hoping it stays open for a long time.
I can not find this article on Colton's blog, of course I can only hold my breath so long.
John:
Its in part 4 of his Bandon trip write-up. Also referenced in part 6.
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Per Colton's blog.
Here's hoping it stays open for a long time.
I can not find this article on Colton's blog, of course I can only hold my breath so long.
That's a ringing endorsement!
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I think everyone needs to take a morning sip of shut-the-hell-up.
I'm tempted to make a tagline change... :)
(http://www.fairfaxunderground.com/forum/file.php?2,file=33120,filename=Shut_the_fuck_up.bmp)
classic!
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I don't feel strongly one way or another on if it is appropriate forum to discuss a clubs troubles, I am fine with it and also see the other point of view. However as a past President of a club that went through a debt problem, the more awareness the issue has the greater the opportunities are to salvage it. I had limited possabilities at my club but once the news got out the options dramatically increased. Some good some bad. Also provided the opportunity for the folks in charge to combine interested folks. The majority of golfers and people with money that love golf and could be in a position to help don't read this site.
So IMHO the best way to see this saved is to have a lot of possible saviors. Let's face it while I haven't played there I have read the reviews and there are only two options here. Return the land to farm land which isn't likely a good option or maintain it as a premium club. If you make it a poor condition muni it just becomes farmland again as its too remote. When saddled with those two choices the debt holders are likely to realize they can lose virtually their entire investment and farm the land or take a haircut in term or loan balance and likely both and keep the club going and hope it survives and it's greatness eventually provides a return.
The only reason I can see to hush hush things is if someone already has a inside track on a sweetheart deal and will be a great caretaker for the place.
Dan
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Kalen:
Love the photoshop. Ballyneal would be completely out of character for Trump based on his current model, but I did laugh out loud when I saw your artwork.
However, it still is not better then the post that NGLA and Shinnecock were allowing public play during the hurricane. That was really funny stuff.
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Kalen:
Love the photoshop. Ballyneal would be completely out of character for Trump based on his current model, but I did laugh out loud when I saw your artwork.
However, it still is not better then the post that NGLA and Shinnecock were allowing public play during the hurricane. That was really funny stuff.
I was kind of hoping to inspire one of the few guys on this site who are actually good with Photoshop to put a ginormous waterfall behind the 9th green...and make it look like its actually there! ;D
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I think Pat really hit the nail on the head.
While an actual membership at Ballyneal would be out of my range, I could be easily swayed to pay $1k per year for a National one and head out there a couple times per year.
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I think Pat really hit the nail on the head.
While an actual membership at Ballyneal would be out of my range, I could be easily swayed to pay $1k per year for a National one and head out there a couple times per year.
So if Pebble were private you would go twice a year.
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I think Pat really hit the nail on the head.
While an actual membership at Ballyneal would be out of my range, I could be easily swayed to pay $1k per year for a National one and head out there a couple times per year.
So if Pebble were private you would go twice a year.
Thats a fair question John,
But there are a few differences.
1) Two visits would not equal two rounds. More than likely I would play 6 or so rounds during my two visits.
2) I really like the isolation/peace and quiet of Ballyneal. Its got that middle of nowhere adventure thing going for it. Pebble Beach is a bit of a different animal in that respect.
3) Ballyneal feels like a place to get away from it all, Pebble is all about the destination and going where it all is.
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Might a "solution" or method for securing an infusion of cash be, to offer National memberships, at lower fees, based on residence distance from Holyoke, CO ?
Ie, would Mike Sweeney, Steve Lapper, TEPaul and others pay $ 500 to $ 1,000 per year to be National members outside of a 1,000 or 1,500 mile radius ? Get 500 or 1,000 of them and that's a nice income stream. Maybe $ 1,000 to $ 2,500 per year for those between 500 miles and 1,000 miles. In other words, tier the National membership based on milage, and provide National members with reduced privileges, no equity, and availability based on scheduling.
Allow these members to send unaccompanied guests, at a premium.
Are you the same Pat Mucci that just recently defended Private Clubs and pointed out that when paying a premium membership of $70K, it is disconcerting for those members to allow others the same privilage for $1K?
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Might a "solution" or method for securing an infusion of cash be, to offer National memberships, at lower fees, based on residence distance from Holyoke, CO ?
Ie, would Mike Sweeney, Steve Lapper, TEPaul and others pay $ 500 to $ 1,000 per year to be National members outside of a 1,000 or 1,500 mile radius ? Get 500 or 1,000 of them and that's a nice income stream. Maybe $ 1,000 to $ 2,500 per year for those between 500 miles and 1,000 miles. In other words, tier the National membership based on milage, and provide National members with reduced privileges, no equity, and availability based on scheduling.
Allow these members to send unaccompanied guests, at a premium.
Are you the same Pat Mucci that just recently defended Private Clubs and pointed out that when paying a premium membership of $70K, it is disconcerting for those members to allow others the same privilage for $1K?
This should warrant some green pen.....don't let me down Pat ;)
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From time to time people on GCA have talked about opening up a "GCA National" golf club. Any possibilities here?
Does anybody have some view into the financial situation at Ballyneal to figure out how feasible this is? I would think there would be a great deal of interest from everyone here. I would love to see something similar to UK club model...
I am truly sadden to find out about this news. Ballyneal really is a special place.
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Pete,
I didn't see it but was Pat's example dealing with a private club that was in foreclosure and struggling for it's very survival?
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Pete,
I didn't see it but was Pat's example dealing with a private club that was in foreclosure and struggling for it's very survival?
No, of course it wasn't.
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the what to do next is a hard discussion to have without understanding the terms of the loan? (e.g. is there a balloon payment, do rates change over time, etc?)
The challenge I know that alot of clubs face is that their monthly dues don't cover operating expenses and they need an influx of new member with their initiation fees in order to breakeven/ make profit. The result is a budget which is impossible to forecast and an incentive to dramatically reduce initiation fees for a short-term gain (and potentially alienate existing members)
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I like Patrick's model...I have always thought that sort of model makes sense..count me in...
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Pete,
I didn't see it but was Pat's example dealing with a private club that was in foreclosure and struggling for it's very survival?
No, of course it wasn't.
JR,
Feel free to explain to me how allowing $1K members will make the 100 memebers who ponied up $70 happy campers?
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I like Patrick's model...I have always thought that sort of model makes sense..count me in...
For your informsation MWP, Patrick went on for pages explaining why the UK model would NOT work in the US; an amazing turnabout!
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2. Why the indignant rants when discussing the Ballyneal business model/failings and not when we discuss other courses?
I can't answer why, definitively, however, two reasons come to mind as possibilities.
Ballyneal was kind of a GCA.com baby. Tom, leaked the first site visit before he even went. ('03?) And when he returned he posted a picture of the raw land. The randomness of the rolls combined with a sandy look, tugged at the souls of us gca.com veteran geek-o-philes.
The other reason is a humanistic one. It's likely poor form to discuss the financials of any private course, unless you have a capital interest. Using past poor form to justify current ones, ain't fly. Dig?
Well said.
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I believe it may have been Brad Klein who said words to the effect that to the outside world, what's said on this site is mostly irrelevant.
I think Tom Doak directly disagrees with that statement - based on his comments on the getting started thread.
And this is where Don Mahaffey and I first met, including many other business relationships.
this site may not impact "golf", but it does effect golf architecture as a business and an art
Cheers
Not to mention a lot of good friends and interconnections.
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I think everyone needs to take a morning sip of shut-the-hell-up.
I'm tempted to make a tagline change... :)
Best of luck to all parties involved.
George-I`ll flip you for it. That`s a classic. ;D
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I like Patrick's model...I have always thought that sort of model makes sense..count me in...
For your informsation MWP, Patrick went on for pages explaining why the UK model would NOT work in the US; an amazing turnabout!
Hi Pete,
He wasn't talking about a national destination club model though...
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Sean,
Ok, I'm slow on the uptake. Ballyneal was never intended to be anything but a national destination course; even if every rancher within 150 miles joined you couldn't have 100 memebers. So how are the destination members that paid $70K going to feel about the same deal for $1K?
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Sean,
Ok, I'm slow on the uptake. Ballyneal was never intended to be anything but a national destination course; even if every rancher within 150 miles joined you couldn't have 100 memebers. So how are the destination members that paid $70K going to feel about the same deal for $1K?
Pete,
Which scenario would feel worse for the original investors:
1. Course/Club closed and they can never play the course or use the club again
2. Course/Club is open and they can play the course and use the club the same as they always have
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Sean,
Ok, I'm slow on the uptake. Ballyneal was never intended to be anything but a national destination course; even if every rancher within 150 miles joined you couldn't have 100 memebers. So how are the destination members that paid $70K going to feel about the same deal for $1K?
I am thinking that right now they are just hoping to have a course to play going forward...
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Sean,
Ok, I'm slow on the uptake. Ballyneal was never intended to be anything but a national destination course; even if every rancher within 150 miles joined you couldn't have 100 memebers. So how are the destination members that paid $70K going to feel about the same deal for $1K?
Pete,
Which scenario would feel worse for the original investors:
1. Course/Club closed and they can never play the course or use the club again
2. Course/Club is open and they can play the course and use the club the same as they always have
Call me sentimental, but if I can't have a tequilla with Rupert I might pick option 1.
Seriously, I do think that the golf course at Ballyneal will survive. Obviously it will need to be structured quite differently or have a deep pockets sugar daddy. But it was always intended to be a private club and going forward will still need to be one to survive. But giving away $1K national membership seems a slap in the face to those who did the heavy lifting and helped push the ship away from the pier.
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Sean,
Ok, I'm slow on the uptake. Ballyneal was never intended to be anything but a national destination course; even if every rancher within 150 miles joined you couldn't have 100 memebers. So how are the destination members that paid $70K going to feel about the same deal for $1K?
Pete,
Which scenario would feel worse for the original investors:
1. Course/Club closed and they can never play the course or use the club again
2. Course/Club is open and they can play the course and use the club the same as they always have
This stuff is a real issue whenever troubles like this happen but in the end you have to adjust to a new reality whatever that happens to be, the past is the past. There are a few places still where the remaining members would write checks to save the place but I would say that is getting rarer and rarer.
During the "saving my club period" I did a lower cost membership 3k vs say 5k for new folks. A bunch of the old members were quite upset and I understood why but in the end I either needed to do that or charge 7k and 7k would never fly, so in the end that was what was necessary for survival with a plan to meet both categories at 4k eventually if we were successful in year 2 but never got to year 2.
If you paid a high initiation in the past that is worthless today its better for the club to survive and still use it and perhaps recover one day than to lose the initiation and the right to play it and any chance at recovery. Still its a bitter pill to swallow for many. Initiations at inflated rates are like any bad investment, like my internet stocks, no one is going to bail you out of it. Other than highly desirable places the high initiation fee is gone for now and maybe forever without better protection in case of club failure.
Dan
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I think Pat really hit the nail on the head.
While an actual membership at Ballyneal would be out of my range, I could be easily swayed to pay $1k per year for a National one and head out there a couple times per year.
So if Pebble were private you would go twice a year.
Thats a fair question John,
But there are a few differences.
1) Two visits would not equal two rounds. More than likely I would play 6 or so rounds during my two visits.
2) I really like the isolation/peace and quiet of Ballyneal. Its got that middle of nowhere adventure thing going for it. Pebble Beach is a bit of a different animal in that respect.
3) Ballyneal feels like a place to get away from it all, Pebble is all about the destination and going where it all is.
Kalen:
Don't forget that $1,000 doesn't really get you even a single round at Pebble, or at least a guaranteed one, since to get a tee time in advance you have to stay at the resort, where the cheapest room is $600/night. So if you want to be able to get a tee time in advance, Pebble really costs more than $1,100/round. . . .
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Pete,
I didn't see it but was Pat's example dealing with a private club that was in foreclosure and struggling for it's very survival?
No, of course it wasn't.
JR,
Feel free to explain to me how allowing $1K members will make the 100 memebers who ponied up $70 happy campers?
It won't. But, we don't seem to be talking about a traditional membership and traditional club here do we? We're talking about a club in the middle of nowhere and allegedly in foreclosure.
The analysis and question where Pat was referenced was wholly different than what we're possibly dealing with here.
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I think Pat really hit the nail on the head.
While an actual membership at Ballyneal would be out of my range, I could be easily swayed to pay $1k per year for a National one and head out there a couple times per year.
So if Pebble were private you would go twice a year.
Thats a fair question John,
But there are a few differences.
1) Two visits would not equal two rounds. More than likely I would play 6 or so rounds during my two visits.
2) I really like the isolation/peace and quiet of Ballyneal. Its got that middle of nowhere adventure thing going for it. Pebble Beach is a bit of a different animal in that respect.
3) Ballyneal feels like a place to get away from it all, Pebble is all about the destination and going where it all is.
Kalen:
Don't forget that $1,000 doesn't really get you even a single round at Pebble, or at least a guaranteed one, since to get a tee time in advance you have to stay at the resort, where the cheapest room is $600/night. So if you want to be able to get a tee time in advance, Pebble really costs more than $1,100/round. . . .
Karl,
All the more reason a scenario like Ballyneal would be more interesting/doable than Pebble.
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In reference to the Euro model for Ballyneal and similar clubs, I got my club newsletter from Enniscrone GC in Ireland and they had a tough year. They laid off two staff members and I could feel the pain of the President who wrote the letter across an ocean.
Reality is golf in general and destination clubs specifically need more play.
My question is whatever model wins out at Ballyneal, can it survive without carts?
The knee jerk reaction here is to point to Bandon, but obviously it is much cooler there in the summer.
Does walking only give Ballyneal a unique position in a crowded market, or does it limit play moving forward?
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Sean,
Ok, I'm slow on the uptake. Ballyneal was never intended to be anything but a national destination course; even if every rancher within 150 miles joined you couldn't have 100 memebers. So how are the destination members that paid $70K going to feel about the same deal for $1K?
Pete,
Which scenario would feel worse for the original investors:
1. Course/Club closed and they can never play the course or use the club again
2. Course/Club is open and they can play the course and use the club the same as they always have
Call me sentimental, but if I can't have a tequilla with Rupert I might pick option 1.
Seriously, I do think that the golf course at Ballyneal will survive. Obviously it will need to be structured quite differently or have a deep pockets sugar daddy. But it was always intended to be a private club and going forward will still need to be one to survive. But giving away $1K national membership seems a slap in the face to those who did the heavy lifting and helped push the ship away from the pier.
Pete, I have made 2 trips out to Ballyneal over the last 3 yrs and each time I was there the place was almost empty. One trip was in June the other in Sept. I had a very enjoyable time both withthe golf and amenities. Ironically both times we left ,the discussion was the same-how can this club cash flow given the low number of rounds and insufficient usage of the restaurant,bar and very well appointed rooms?.If the model were similar to Pine Valley where you charge a nominal initiation fee,hypothetically$5000 and then charge 2K per year and have 1200 members,you have solved your cash flow problem. The problems that I see are: 1) is that it is difficult to get to -3hrs from Denver airport. 2)Lodging is selflimiting-how many golfers can stay on grounds at one time? 3) Its the only show in town- in Philly you have 10 other excellent choices to chose from if you are looking at other golf. 4) Short season- probably mid May to late Sept. In closing, the reality is that golfers can only support so many destination clubs/courses. When you start to think about Sand Hills, Dismal River, Seccession etc,there is a finite supply of golfers that have the interest ,time and resources to keep these destination clubs afloat.
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My question is whatever model wins out at Ballyneal, can it survive without carts?
There you go, causing trouble again, bringing up the dreaded "C" word ... :D
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Sean,
Ok, I'm slow on the uptake. Ballyneal was never intended to be anything but a national destination course; even if every rancher within 150 miles joined you couldn't have 100 memebers. So how are the destination members that paid $70K going to feel about the same deal for $1K?
Pete,
Which scenario would feel worse for the original investors:
1. Course/Club closed and they can never play the course or use the club again
2. Course/Club is open and they can play the course and use the club the same as they always have
When you start to think about Sand Hills, Dismal River, Seccession etc,there is a finite supply of golfers that have the interest ,time and resources to keep these destination clubs afloat.
It's worse than that though.
The type of golfer sophisticated enough to know about and appreciate Ballyneal, no doubt is a member elsewhere in their local area, and travels as much as he can to places of great architectural interest such as the UK/Ireland, bandon etc.
I woud be quite surprised to hear of a nonlocal member whose only rounds were at Ballyneal (even excluding his home club)
Hopefully there's someone out there who's already figured this out and will produce an effective business plan that maintains the integrity of Ballyneal. (which could simply be a matter of a lower cost basis)
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Mike Interesting you bring up the carts. I am made a personal promise to myself when I regain my health, a walking golfer I will be. However the climate is such in the summer there that carts can be needed to attract older members. It can be really hot there during a short season. Also a cart would be great to have a second round or quick nine before dinner. Most on here agree that walking golf is the best golf. It can be great golf when you have a caddie or lazy golfer drive a cart with 4 sets of clubs on them and everybody else walks. We do a lot of 4 bagging at the Olympic Club. Oh Jeff don't you mean higher revenue rather than lower costs? I have never heard much in the way or cost issues there. It reportedly is a fairly well run operation. It has always been about needing more members and cash flow.
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Lower cost of membership is what I think Jeff meant.
I think the no carts practice is probably an ideal that will have to be sacrificed to maximize membership revenue.
There are a lot of 50-90% walkers that are auto-excluded in that model.
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I woud be quite surprised to hear of a nonlocal member whose only rounds were at Ballyneal (even excluding his home club)
Jeff:
Prior to dropping my membership, Ballyneal was where I played probably 80% of my annual rounds. I live 1100 miles away and don't belong anywhere else. I would only play a handful of rounds (maybe 6) here at home (Columbus) or elsewhere annually.
Is that close to what you were referring to, although it's not fully 100% of my rounds at Ballyneal?
Aside from that, I'm going to sit on the sidelines while everyone continues to speculate. This is heartbreaking to me.
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Is it possible that we are being a little irrational? A foreclosure does not happen overnight. The likelihood is that many menbers knew about this for along time. Wouldn't it be a good idea for members to get together and protect their original investements by purchasing the club themselves? Isnt the greatest possibility that Ballyneal survives with its current members purchasing the club, and making whatever changes are neccessary for survival?
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I'm compelled to ask: Exactly how many financially distressed golf clubs have been rescued by flippant scenarios tossed out by the members of this website? As a syndicate we're an abject failure.
I'm also compelled to ask: If you held the mortgage on Ballyneal, would you be monitoring this thread with interest?
As a lender I might be interested in the thread until I read it. The lenders are going to be looking at the best way to gain reasonable value while disposing of the asset in a reasonable time. So are any buyers. They will have some interest in retaining the goodwill of present members, thus interest in the thread, but mostly it's a numbers game. There is a price at which the course can be viable with good managers. (Trump is a good manager, by the way.) Sooner or later the course will change hands at that price.
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I woud be quite surprised to hear of a nonlocal member whose only rounds were at Ballyneal (even excluding his home club)
Jeff:
Prior to dropping my membership, Ballyneal was where I played probably 80% of my annual rounds. I live 1100 miles away and don't belong anywhere else. I would only play a handful of rounds (maybe 6) here at home (Columbus) or elsewhere annually.
Is that close to what you were referring to, although it's not fully 100% of my rounds at Ballyneal?
Aside from that, I'm going to sit on the sidelines while everyone continues to speculate. This is heartbreaking to me.
Doug,
That's interesting.
Gives a new meaning to running out for a quick game.
Tiger,
I meant a lower cost basis for the property.
i.e. paying less for the property than the original owner.
For instance, if the new owner had no debt(and the old owner did), his annual expenses would automatically be lower.
But I know nothing about this situation other than I wish them well
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Feel free to explain to me how allowing $1K members will make the 100 memebers who ponied up $70 happy campers?
Ok, I'm slow on the uptake. Ballyneal was never intended to be anything but a national destination course; even if every rancher within 150 miles joined you couldn't have 100 memebers. So how are the destination members that paid $70K going to feel about the same deal for $1K?
I guess the $70k guys will be a lot more upset if the place returns to being ranchland.
I know nothing about Ballyneal but plenty about insolvent businesses. Just because a business fails it doesn't mean that the assets cease to exist. The golf course at Ballyneal is simply an asset of a business that appears to be in trouble; if the business goes under the asset will be bought by someone else.
Whether that 'someone else' uses the asset for golf or for ranching cattle depends on the competion there was to buy the land, the price paid, and the motivation for buying it. Whether or not they make a success of it depends on their business model and management capabilities.
In any situation like this the original investors lose their shirts and incoming investors potentially pick up a bargain. It's the market.
What is the fire-sale value of a golf course in the middle of nowhere? Would it be any more than the value of the land it occupies?
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Did the photo thread get to the 18th hole yet?
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Did the photo thread get to the 18th hole yet?
Hole 17 posted. I'm in a race to the finish with the Old Mac photo tour.
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Sometimes the race isn't won by the swift, but I thought there was some cruel irony in the fact that the photo thread was almost done and now we get this development...
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Did the photo thread get to the 18th hole yet?
Hole 17 posted. I'm in a race to the finish with the Old Mac photo tour.
Total elapsed time from start to finish of the thread or the day the last hole gets posted? I might just get motivated to do 17 & 18 if it is the latter.
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Sometimes the race isn't won by the swift, but I thought there was some cruel irony in the fact that the photo thread was almost done and now we get this development...
Terry, this wasn't lost on me.
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Might a "solution" or method for securing an infusion of cash be, to offer National memberships, at lower fees, based on residence distance from Holyoke, CO ?
Ie, would Mike Sweeney, Steve Lapper, TEPaul and others pay $ 500 to $ 1,000 per year to be National members outside of a 1,000 or 1,500 mile radius ? Get 500 or 1,000 of them and that's a nice income stream. Maybe $ 1,000 to $ 2,500 per year for those between 500 miles and 1,000 miles. In other words, tier the National membership based on milage, and provide National members with reduced privileges, no equity, and availability based on scheduling.
Allow these members to send unaccompanied guests, at a premium.
Are you the same Pat Mucci that just recently defended Private Clubs and pointed out that when paying a premium membership of $70K, it is disconcerting for those members to allow others the same privilage for $1K?
Pete,
You can't be that obtuse, or can you ?
How you would equate a national membership, requiring the member to live 1,000 to 1,500 miles away from the club, with giving locals access at a ridiculously deep discount is beyond me, especially when the club being discussed is in a remote location to begin with.
That you don't see the distinction is grounds for Ran to limit your responses for six months, to three (3) words, "yes", "no" and "maybe"
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Sometimes the race isn't won by the swift, but I thought there was some cruel irony in the fact that the photo thread was almost done and now we get this development...
Terry, this wasn't lost on me.
Didn't think so but I'm getting sleepy and obtunded!
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I like Patrick's model...I have always thought that sort of model makes sense..count me in...
For your informsation MWP, Patrick went on for pages explaining why the UK model would NOT work in the US; an amazing turnabout!
Pete,
Help me out here, I'm not great at geography, having been a chemical engineering major when I entered college.
Where would one have to live to be 1,500 miles away from any course in the UK ?
Norway ? Sweden ? Italy ? Spain ?
Help me out here.
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Gents, i like walking and often carry my own bag when no caddies are available (i think its wrong not to give a guy work if a caddie has made it out to the course)
but if i wanna play fast/have played 18 in the am/feeling lazy i like taking a cart, and iam willing to admit it. Why not offer carts to people who have flown 5 hrs/driven 3 hours to get to a course, esp. on a 90 degree day? nobody makes you take one....
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Sean,
Ok, I'm slow on the uptake. Ballyneal was never intended to be anything but a national destination course; even if every rancher within 150 miles joined you couldn't have 100 memebers. So how are the destination members that paid $70K going to feel about the same deal for $1K?
I don't know if you noticed, but there's a city just to the west of Holyoke, called Denver.
I'm not sure, but I think it's about 166 miles from the Denver Airport
The drive from Denver is a little more than the drive from Northern New Jersey to Hidden Creek Golf Club outside of Atlantic City.
And, from LI, Westchester and Manhattan it probably takes longer to get to Hidden Creek.
If I recall correctly, Denver is the 11th largest city in the U.S with area population of about 2,400,000
I also think that the Denver Airport, an airport large enough for TEPaul to get lost in it, had about 20,600,000 passengers travel through it just from January through May this year.
And, if I'm not mistaken, there are accomodations on the property at Ballyneal.
I doubt, if someone lived in Denver, and paid $ 70,000 for unlimited privileges, that they'd object to national members, who live 1,500 miles away, with limited privileges, paying $ 1,000 per year. Unless of course, those who paid $ 70,000 want their dues to go up by $ 5,000 to $ 10,000 per year without those national members.
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Pete,
I don't know if you're aware of it, but a good number of clubs offer National memberships to individuals living beyond a specified radius.
My observations regarding a club of that nature is that there is no acrimony between national and local members, and both classes of members understand the value each brings to the club.
Upon what experiences with local and national memberships do you base your position ?
David Lott,
I agree, you have to have a seller and a buyer and they have to agree on the price.
Without agreement, there can be no deal.
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This club will make it but no doubt go through some hard times along the road.
I will offer a silent prayer that "The Donald" stays far far away. My heart goes out to the member, but most of all the staff, keep your heads up.
Why ?
He might be the best thing that could happen to Ballyneal, except, no banks appear to be involved.
He runs a great operation, appreciates great golf courses and has the resources to continue operations.
And, I think he's smart enough to leave it as it is.
C'mon Pat,
You know he would do something like this on a hole like 12... ;D
P.S. Yes I'm well aware my Photoshop skills are woefully inadequate! :-X
Kalen,
That's not bad.
And, I'm starting to like that waterfall, especially in the summer ;D
(http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q234/kbjames_70/golf/Ballyneal/BN12.jpg)
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Patrick,
The economic realities are, initiation dues have to come down to attract new members at most clubs. But that doesn't change the fact that many of the members who paid more will not be happy when it happens. I've experienced it first hand and its like an old money/new money class divide happens. Most everybody knows it has to happen, and they understand the business logic, but its not an easy pill to swallow for some.
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I think everyone needs to take a morning sip of shut-the-hell-up.
I'm tempted to make a tagline change... :)
(http://www.fairfaxunderground.com/forum/file.php?2,file=33120,filename=Shut_the_fuck_up.bmp)
Was there a BE RUDE pill in the coffee yesterday? This is a bizarre reaction to a pointless thread.
Ciao
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Patrick,
The economic realities are, initiation dues have to come down to attract new members at most clubs. But that doesn't change the fact that many of the members who paid more will not be happy when it happens. I've experienced it first hand and its like an old money/new money class divide happens. Most everybody knows it has to happen, and they understand the business logic, but its not an easy pill to swallow for some.
Don,
You're confusing a situation whereby members have paid lower prices for the same membership class, with a situation whereby members of different membership classes are paying different amounts.
Secondly, having belonged to a number of clubs over the last 50 years, initiation and dues have vacillated with the economic environment, up and down, and not once did I ever observe any resentment on any segment of the membership over the fact that members, depending upon when they joined, paid differing amounts.
Having sat on finance committees and boards for over 40 years at a number of clubs, I think I'm amply qualified to discuss this matter from the perspective of actual experiences of the membership, new and old.
In addition, I belong to a club with a national membership program and there is no resentment toward national members from the regular members.
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Mark Chaplin & Mark Pearce,
Where's your righteous indignation over the post below ?
Why have you been silent on the posting of such harsh language ?
Do you know how to spell "hypocrite" ?
(http://www.fairfaxunderground.com/forum/file.php?2,file=33120,filename=Shut_the_fuck_up.bmp)
[/quote]
Was there a BE RUDE pill in the coffee yesterday? This is a bizarre reaction to a pointless thread.
Sean,
It's not a pointless thread, it's a thread that addresses the difficulties all clubs are facing in these challenging economic times, especially the more remote clubs
It's a
Ciao
[/quote]
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I dont really understand why anyone would want to build golf courses in remote destinations.
I dont understand why someone would pay $1,000 per year and live a 1,000 miles away.
I dont understand why someone would stump up $70,000 to join.
I dont understand why a club would not allow someone to ride in a cart.
Probably someone in love with this course will buy it, perhaps in a group of other lovers, I expect they will still pay to much for this and toilet their money. It probably does not work, but it might take a few owners to understand that.
Location Location Location is so important, Land fit for purpose is not so important
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Adrian...
Evidently, you are not a propsect for one of these clubs. Thanks for sharing.
To all...
On this thread itself, perhaps it started off with potential but it has become a trainwreck and embarrassing. It is my belief that Bogey wanted this thread deleted and went above and beyond in an effort to have foul language and inappropriate behavior recognized by the board administrator in an effort to achieve that goal.
Like so many threads on GCA, I will no longer be reading this one.
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A statement with several caveats:
IF BN has been foreclosed upon;
IF said forclosure was due to liquidity concerns (i.e not enough money to pay the bills, whether from: lack of operating cash (revenues less expenses), no assets to sell, no additional equity to be infused;
IF there is no consensual restructuring agreement between debtor and creditors (i.e a pre-packaged bankruptcy, in fact or premise); then...
...the restructuring process will likely unfold over a longer period of time, not shorter. That no banks are involved makes things no clearer whatsoever. Both banks and private parties have the abilty to act quickly, decisively, rationally and economically...if they want to. But herding the cats is always a big effort.
There are several stages in a restructurng, something like: denial, blame, apathy, rescue, acceptance, agreement, resolution. I have no idea the facts in the matter so can't opine on where the process is, but I wish all involved the best of luck to save what I've heard (mostly from gca.com) is a fantastic place.
It's sad: if I could join two national clubs they might have been Musgrove Mill and Ballyneal; tough times, indeed.
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Adrian,
It's pretty simple. Let's say you live in a major metro area of the U.S., love playing golf primarily on sand, prefer golf clubs to country clubs and don't feel like dropping $10-20k per annum and $50-100k down to play a Doak 4-6 course built on clay and/or kissing enough ass and waiting long enough to get invited to the one or two really great courses in town (that are also quite pricey). Well one can play Doak 4 or 5 public golf for $50-$100 a week with the masses, make several trips to their Doak 8 or 9 national club, throw in a trip to Bandon or GB&I all the while being ahead of the game in terms of # of quality rounds/dollar. That's pretty attractive to some of us, and I'd venture to say well beyond the confines of the obsessed on this site. Yes most folks only care about the pool, the convenience and green grass but some of us have our priorities in a different place. Yes folks in the UK probably scratch their heads at all this as they have a plethora of fine links and heathland courses at reasonable prices. That's not the case on this side of the pond....
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I dont really understand why anyone would want to build golf courses in remote destinations.
Acquisition costs tend to be lower.
I dont understand why someone would pay $1,000 per year and live a 1,000 miles away.
Because the $ 1,000 doesn't mean that much to them and it gives them the ability to play a wonderful course when they choose or are in the neighborhood. I know a fellow who's in Denver several times a year on business. Why wouldn't he join ?
I dont understand why someone would stump up $70,000 to join.
Because they can afford $ 70,000 and feel that membership at the club enhances their quality of life.
I dont understand why a club would not allow someone to ride in a cart.
I've often been puzzled by the prohibition against carts as it seems to eliminate a segment/cadre of golfers.
My guess is that they want to establish a "culture" of golf at that particular club.
Probably someone in love with this course will buy it, perhaps in a group of other lovers, I expect they will still pay to much for this and toilet their money. It probably does not work, but it might take a few owners to understand that.
Time will tell.
One thing seems apparent, everyone raves about the golf course, so it must be something special.
Location Location Location is so important, Land fit for purpose is not so important
The problem with great locations is that they cost an inordinate amount of money.
SEBONACK might be exhibit "A"
Now, how do you recapture your investment in the land when you expend 65 million or more just for the land ?
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I guess this is a case of "be careful what you wish for" because all of the fawning over Ballyneal by the hobbyist crowd has now turned a bit judgmental. Let's get over ourselves. It's a club that has financial issues. It has plenty of company, unfortunately.
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Well I can only applaud your enthusiasm, as a lazy Britt that just seems so much trouble for a game of golf and the concept has zero chance of success here. I tried to get 12 of us to go to Bandon and as soon as I said we had to walk it was a big NO, they went to South Carolina. I have not heard of anyone from here going to Bandon, two reasons I suspect, its too far for us and for the money we have great courses here although a lot depart here from October to May to play in Spain and Portugal. Spanish courses on the Costa del Sol are not great but the sun wins the fans over.
Another question if this was so cheap and minimal why was is $70,000 to join. Most of my courses with land cost, house and course are still less than $5,000 to make so at $50,000 you could have 100 Founder members (owners).
I dont much about the exact location but if you could get 30 twin rooms to house 60 persons and do weekends or trips those outings could pay for the upkeep 60 x $500 thats $30,000 per week if you can do it for 6 months that should be close to enough. Make sure they have carts though, you need the income!!!
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this thread now reminds me of the original Ballyneal thread i started in 2007....that didn't end very well (for me) either
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Adrian,
As a fellow Brit, allbe it one who has become somewhat Americanised, I think you miss the entire point of what Ballyneal is and wasdesigned to be.
A treasure for "true" golfers to have fun...what the Americans call TRUE GOLF.....no gimmicks, no big lakes with flash bunkering, no cart paths to ruin the landscape..pure untouched golf.
Now it appears that model has run into problems and before you condemn the model as inpractical...it works at Sand Hills which is not that far away and not much less remote as a locale.
The two courses are difficult to seerate in trems of quality and as a golfing experinece...I admit Sand Hills does have carts although not that many are used.
The cart issue perhaps should and I am sure will be more leniant in the future.
The cost and value are hard to understand from someone playing in the UK...dIFFERENT WORLD MY FRIEND...Different animal altogether.
My country club here in Arkansas for instance..nice course Langford/Moreau built in 1914..so of some significance...monthly dues run $425 minimum, which in the UK would be very expensive...that is just the nature of what the game is in this country.
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Michael - I dont think it did miss the entire point at all. I understand the concept, I understand the demographics, I am fairly sure there are not enough people that care enough to put in the sort of effort to give these courses enough rounds. I see a similar thing on this site wereby many on here would bust a golf club very quickly with their minor headed ideas. There is always room for an unusual one and just because Sand Hills works or worked does you yield a path forward for others, they may have taken all the creamy members already, perhaps with multiple destination clubs none of them end up working.
The way Americans run their golf courses and pricing is as crazy as the banking crisis. Golf should not cost $425 per month, but then you are going to tell me you get the tennis courts, the pool and someone in suit to tell me its a nice day.
The USA golf model will really struggle while you pay too much for froth. Ive played a fair range of American course and Ive played some really nice courses for a $50 green fee, so it can be done.
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this thread now reminds me of the original Ballyneal thread i started in 2007....that didn't end very well (for me) either
...or the Merion thread you started when you first joined the DG. :)
When I google 'Ballyneal foreclosure' this thread is right up there at #2.
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Isn't the reason for no carts because it is fescue or is it that they made their minds up from the beginning that it would be walking only and the type of turf didn't matter?
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Wow Adrian. Thanks for your input. Are you putting together an "Occupy Augusta" program for April?
The way Americans run their golf courses and pricing is as crazy as the banking crisis. Golf should not cost $425 per month, but then you are going to tell me you get the tennis courts, the pool and someone in suit to tell me its a nice day.
The USA golf model will really struggle while you pay too much for froth. Ive played a fair range of American course and Ive played some really nice courses for a $50 green fee, so it can be done.
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this thread now reminds me of the original Ballyneal thread i started in 2007....that didn't end very well (for me) either
...or the Merion thread you started when you first joined the DG. :)
Or my first Dismal River thread or the Dormie Club thread that some guy lost it... or the Augusta National thread before I played where John K told me "not to smoke before sex"... ::)
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Just a couple thoughts for Adrian;
I would equate You asked why pay $1,000 and live 1,000 miles away...what was Royal St. Georges initial function?
Also, didn't Augusta National have significant financial difficulties very early on?
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I think everyone needs to take a morning sip of shut-the-hell-up.
I'm tempted to make a tagline change... :)
(http://www.fairfaxunderground.com/forum/file.php?2,file=33120,filename=Shut_the_fuck_up.bmp)
Was there a BE RUDE pill in the coffee yesterday? This is a bizarre reaction to a pointless thread.
Ciao
Lighten up, my friend. Dan just posted that jokingly because I got a chuckle from Bogey's colorful language. Sometimes you have to take a look at who is posting something - I think Dan and I have earned the right to be given the benefit of the doubt.
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Just out of curiosity, who came up with the "$1K for national membership" number? That seems ridiculously low for a course of Ballyneal's quality.
Or are there other highly regarded courses with similar offerings? I know Prairie Dunes is (or perhaps was) a steal at its national membership rate, but even that was a good bit higher than $1K.
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Jim - I dont know those answers, but when I read how lovely Ballyneal is and what a great day people had they report ...it was great we had the course to ourselves.... Now it depends how you read stories and how full or empty your glass is or on which side of the fence you want to sit, but READ THE TITLE OF THE THREAD. If its in foreclosure what are the reasons? If you can isolate the reasons and repair those problems it can work? If those problems are not going to go away its always going to be a problem.
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Adrian,
as soon as the debt is written down and the club is sold to an operator at today's fair market value the majority of the problem disappears.
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Adrian,
Dont get me wrong, I agree that we pay way too much for our golf over here when compared to he UK..I was a member at Copt heath when at home, a nice course as you know and pain a margin of what I pay here for a comparative course.
I still have not truly been able to figure it out why?
But somewhere like Balltneal...the UK "model' would not work..
UK clubs are generally local emebers, which could not apply to somewhere desolate like Ballyneal...but the $x...per year with unlimited play model would in my opinion work.
I would bet if Ballyneal was to offer $500 annual natinoal memberships for anybody outside a 500 mike radius, they would recieve over 1000 members within 14 days.
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READ THE TITLE OF THE THREAD. If its in foreclosure what are the reasons?
Where did the money go?
Land, Golf course Architect, Golf course construction, Pro Shop, Dining Room/Kitchen/Bar, very well appointed rooms, Turtle bar, and more very well appointed rooms, Staff salaries, Management salaries, Golf course maintenance, Interest, and costs associated with planned "2nd" course.
I visited Ballyneal twice, loved it both times, but, I believe, that the fatal flaw in the model was this. In order to get members to pay $70k initiation fees plus dues, the amenities had to be really, really nice. I mean 5-star quality, and I believe they are. Unfortunately, the costs of providing the quality outran the memberships ability or willingness to support them.
Compare the quality of the accomodations at Ballyneal with the rather spartan rooms at Sand Hills. Big difference. Big $.
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I would bet if Ballyneal was to offer $500 annual natinoal memberships for anybody outside a 500 mike radius, they would recieve over 1000 members within 14 days.
Well if they could do that I think that should be the new model.... What I would look to do is try and get the 110 members to own the club..... Issue up to 880 shares, give every existing member 1 new share and give him the right to buy 7 new ones at a price that raises twice what the debt is, ie the new shares are at a very heavy discount to 70,000, perhaps they would be at 3,000 each...if an existing shareholder does not pony up he does not get much new pie.... Then open the club up so the national memberships pay the run cost, If this place is doing 5,000 roinds per annum you need to get this up to 15,000.
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Deleted. Carry on.
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I dont really understand why anyone would want to build golf courses in remote destinations.
I dont understand why someone would pay $1,000 per year and live a 1,000 miles away.
I dont understand why someone would stump up $70,000 to join.
I dont understand why a club would not allow someone to ride in a cart.
Probably someone in love with this course will buy it, perhaps in a group of other lovers, I expect they will still pay to much for this and toilet their money. It probably does not work, but it might take a few owners to understand that.
Location Location Location is so important, Land fit for purpose is not so important
I think it was largely built out of the excesses of our economy at the time. Also trying to perhaps follow in the footsteps of others like Sand Hills that achieved success and continue to flourish. The problem is when the economy is booming there may be room for several but when it's struggling the number of potential members diminishes greatly from not just a money perspective, but time and priority.
Also the memberships that support these places are not young perhaps a 20 years golfing window on average? The replacement of those members is not going to get easier in 10 years from now. People marry later, have kids later and atleast for now incomes are stagnating and falling. While there will always be room for a few tough economies eliminate the weakest places or those who are late to the party unless they can offer a better product. Ballyneal is supposedly great but I haven't heard it's better than Sand Hills which already has attracted the avid affluent and has the prestige, so if given a choice most National members will chose Sand Hills so they will continue to do well but others won't.
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Dan,
Where do I send my check for a Sand Hills membership?
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Dan,
Where do I send my check for a Sand Hills membership?
You can't. That is the difference one high quality remote course is flush and I can't join without the right connections while another one may not quite as nice struggles to survive. The economics are not related much to the difference in quality but more the demand for such places and the amount of potential customers.
Dan
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Ballyneal is supposedly great but I haven't heard it's better than Sand Hills...
Ok, Now you've heard it.
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Pat,
You've made my day, Three green replies in one day!
From your replies it is obvious you haven't been to Ballyneal as you don't seem to grasp the situation there very well. There is a big difference, at least in my mind, between a destination club and a club with national members. By definition the national member club has a stable base of local members and simply fills out the remaining times on the tee sheet with national members who drop by a few times a year, their revenue is greatly appreciated. However you must be located near a dense population base for this model to survive. Ballyneals' model was to sell 130 memberships at $70K each; this is a destination club. I would wager there are very few members who live within 150 miles. Sand Hills is a destination club, I know you have been there. I'm sure you know that all the members there paid they same initiation and dues, irrespective of how far they live from the Sand Hills.
The objection I had to your original post was twofold. First I disagree with your notion that you can turn a destination club into a national membership club without seriously alienating the members who ponied up the big bucks. Just like you didn't want people who pay a big nut to join a private have to put up with casual play at a bargain basement price.
My biggest surprise was when you suggested unaccompanied play! Don't forget this is still a private club; there could be sex offenders and ex-felons who accept your generous suggestion. Think of the liability issues, they are no diiferent from Merion or NLGA just because this club is located in the chop hills of Co.
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Ballyneal is supposedly great but I haven't heard it's better than Sand Hills...
Ok, Now you've heard it.
I haven't played either but even of better the timing was wrong. Sand Hills was already up and sustained. Is there something that would cause people to leave Sand Hills for Ballyneal? Unless there is or the economy or marketing identifies more customers it seems like it was more important to be first than a marginal if any improvement on the product. Even if you built a better NGLA the history and mystique most often are going to win out. There are some exceptions of course.
Dan
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Even if you built a better NGLA the history and mystique most often are going to win out. There are some exceptions of course.
Dan
Are you saying Sebonack was a big mistake and is doomed to failure?
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Pete,
One thing to think about from the perspective of a member that spent $70k is that they are "wiped out" now. If they want to drop because Ballyneal shifts its business model and lets in low initiation feemembers to get the club restarted and out of the hands of lenders they have that right or they can just hold a grudge and continue as members. Either way their money is gone and their club is insolvent right now. I suspect they all know that changes are on the way with some outcomes in the spectum of the possible when in BK being more severe to them than others (eg. return to ranch etc).
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Ballyneal is supposedly great but I haven't heard it's better than Sand Hills...
Ok, Now you've heard it.
I haven't played either but even of better the timing was wrong. Sand Hills was already up and sustained. Is there something that would cause people to leave Sand Hills for Ballyneal? Unless there is or the economy or marketing identifies more customers it seems like it was more important to be first than a marginal if any improvement on the product. Even if you built a better NGLA the history and mystique most often are going to win out. There are some exceptions of course.
Dan
Dan:
You're working off the assumption that Ballyneal was supposed to be the next Sand Hills. They're different golf courses, different hospitality models and different vibes. Ballyneal was intended to be Ballyneal.
Sven
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Even if you built a better NGLA the history and mystique most often are going to win out. There are some exceptions of course.
Dan
Are you saying Sebonack was a big mistake and is doomed to failure?
Not at all. It would be one of the exceptions best I can tell the money involved is way beyond typical It is a place where their is extreme wealth and a large golfing population so it can survive and maybe over time prosper and switch places with a NGLA hard to know what the next generation of golfers will view as the best when the present one who have ushered the building boom and the ranking hype are gone. Without any influence regarding money yes I would say Sebonack would go before NGLA.
Dan
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I think Dan is simply saying there are a limited number of people in the world who will invest in a destination club. Sebonack is not a destination club, at least in the sense Pete means. There are an unlimited number of wealthy people on Long Island... :)
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Ballyneal is supposedly great but I haven't heard it's better than Sand Hills...
Ok, Now you've heard it.
I haven't played either but even of better the timing was wrong. Sand Hills was already up and sustained. Is there something that would cause people to leave Sand Hills for Ballyneal? Unless there is or the economy or marketing identifies more customers it seems like it was more important to be first than a marginal if any improvement on the product. Even if you built a better NGLA the history and mystique most often are going to win out. There are some exceptions of course.
Dan
Dan:
You're working off the assumption that Ballyneal was supposed to be the next Sand Hills. They're different golf courses, different hospitality models and different vibes. Ballyneal was intended to be Ballyneal.
Sven
Yes I am certainly generalizing. However the differences form what I can tell are not extreme. Is a established member of Sand Hills going to leave for Ballyneal because the rooms are nicer and give up the additional prestige and friendships they have built? Maybe 1 or 2. More likely there are those with the economics to do both with little concern. In the end the two courses share many more simalarities than differences. That pretty much explains why one is flourishing and another is not as there aren't presently enough customers at Ballyneals cost to meet the supply. Perhaps a different model
will work.
I may be mistaken but when Sea Island got in trouble the members of Ocean Forest where ready to buy it to preserve what they have, maybe Ballyneals will do the same or someone passionate about the place will write a check and keep it afloat till things improve or just keep
It going out of love for the place. Hopefully a happy ending.
Dan
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I think Dan is simply saying there are a limited number of people in the world who will invest in a destination club. Sebonack is not a destination club, at least in the sense Pete means. There are an unlimited number of wealthy people on Long Island... :)
George,
Sebonack is wholly different animal. The wealthy of NYC (not L.I.) are the demographic driving the membership of this club.
It is both stand-alone worthy (especially for those who will not likely ever be admitted to NGLA or Shinny) as well as a great deal for those who wish to not buy a Hamptons estate, but instead periodically visit the area and play at a terrific venue. As for the business model, it's backer has very deep pockets and the intelligence to promote long-term sustainability over short term gain.
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The thing that separates clubs/courses like Ballyneal from your run of the mill metropolitan based club is the quality of the golf course itself. So many here are trying to apply some sort of business logic or model to explain what happened or what will happen. Fact is, its not logic that compels people to want to play great golf courses anymore then its logic that makes people want to drink fine wine or eat prime instead of choice. What many forget though, is its all about the golf, the golf course. You can get a great meal in almost any town or stay in a nice place. Don't break the bank building facilities when its all about the golf. Pay as you go and build as you go.
I believe we will always have dreamers who want to do something special. My only advice to them is stay focused on the dream and avoid the business experts who tell you what people want. Its not logical to build a great golf course out in the middle of nowhere and it isn't business logic that makes people want to go there and play.
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Don - So what do you say to the people if they have lost their or going to lose a significant amount of their $70,000... sorry your dream was a nightmare.
What you must do is apply buisness logic because dream golf will not work, remember the title of the thread. Buisness logic ideas are required to find a way to get more people to this resort, it will probably need daily fees or weekend outings though that might not be popular with some but getting the plan to work as originally intended looks a gonner to me.
There seems no doubt that is a wonderful course, its just in the wrong place.
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My only advice to them is stay focused on the dream and avoid the business experts who tell you what people want.
Even if that dream has failed once already?
Reminds me of the financial comedy of a boat owner who names his boat "Never Again II"
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Mike, do you own golf clubs? if so, why?
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I think it's a misnomer to think that because the first iteration of BN went in foreclosure that the second iteration of BN is doomed for failure even if it's the same basic business model. As somebody who lost a good chunk of money on this (not 70k), I really don't mind losing that money if out of the ashes is a well-run, healthy club that I can play at a reasonable cost for years to come. The money will be a distant memory if the club turns out okay. I doubt I'm alone in that sentiment.
If for every 50 guys that think like Adrian, there is one who doesn't, then I think Ballyneal will be just fine.
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I don't think Ballyneal is in the wrong place - just like Bandon Dunes is not in the wrong place.
The challenge is the business model - which obviously could not survive in its previous iteration.
There is a model that can work for Ballyneal - but some outside play, lower initiation fees and annual dues, etc. will be required.
I am with Don on keeping the dream and vision alive and focusing on that - not necessarily on what the "business world" is telling you.
People thought Mike Keiser was crazy and he did it, I assume people thought Dick Youngscap was crazy as well for building Sand Hills, and other founders were crazy for building their clubs or bringing them back from a scary place like Chris Johnston did at Dismal - some succeeded and some didn't - some will rise from the ashes with a wiser and more realistic model and thrive while others will cease to exist, as we have seen already. But the key for success is a vision and a membership, or group of golfers, that can hold hands and buy into it.
I don't know anyone - and this is just personal experience - who has left Ballyneal and thought they had a ho hum experience. The resounding reaction is "I wish I could tee it at Ballyneal whenever I can get a hall pass. That place is amazing." It doesn't take THAT many guys who have been moved by the place to step up given an opportunity if the club becomes more affordable and united behind a future vision that is viable economically and operationally.
If Jim Colton's ability to walk 155 holes in one day to raise over $110k for Ben Cox and his family is any indication of the passion that the course and club stirs in its membership then I am optimistic and hopeful that Ballyneal will get thru this and be stronger for it.
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I agree with Jim here, 100%. He didn't invest in Ballyneal, he joined, and the club has every opportunity to come of this better and more healthy. Any smart owner would want to keep the members and keep them very happy.
Rob Rigg is on the mark too, as is Don.
No one here knows what is really going on there, other than the mortgagor wasn't paid. I can imagine several scenarios where the members can still recoup (part or all of) their investment and still enjoy the club, a place they obviously like very much.
Many people look for blame. If that is you, blame the economy. Its ravaging the entire industry.
The destination golf model is alive and well and those who make the choice are pleased to have done so. At Dismal, we don't charge an arm and a leg to join, and our dues are probably alot less than your home club, and we will have two of the best courses, lodging and culinary in the business. It works but it ain't easy. We have happy members, most of whom are big fans and, dare I say, friends. It isn't hard to get to a handful of times a year, and thats what they were built to serve. These aren't national membership clubs, they are national destination clubs. A different animal entirely.
I would caution against members buying the club. There is a huge difference between being a member and being an owner - just ask the good men who were part of Dismal V2. Ownership is a million details. If the deal was fair to both the lender, members, we would love to have a look if we are welcome by all involved. Ballyneal has great people and great members - thats a recipe for success but I can assure you, nobody will make a killing. This is a labor of love and love of the game.
Lets all wait to see how things shake out before we throw dirt on a fine club or a great concept. Yes, the course is very good, but every great club has great people.
Ballyneal will survive and remain a great club. We are cheering for her and will do anything we can to help. That's what neighbors do.
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I think everyone needs to take a morning sip of shut-the-hell-up.
I'm tempted to make a tagline change... :)
(http://www.fairfaxunderground.com/forum/file.php?2,file=33120,filename=Shut_the_fuck_up.bmp)
Was there a BE RUDE pill in the coffee yesterday? This is a bizarre reaction to a pointless thread.
Ciao
Lighten up, my friend. Dan just posted that jokingly because I got a chuckle from Bogey's colorful language. Sometimes you have to take a look at who is posting something - I think Dan and I have earned the right to be given the benefit of the doubt.
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Just out of curiosity, who came up with the "$1K for national membership" number? That seems ridiculously low for a course of Ballyneal's quality.
Or are there other highly regarded courses with similar offerings? I know Prairie Dunes is (or perhaps was) a steal at its national membership rate, but even that was a good bit higher than $1K.
George
I am light enough not to tell people to STFU. You must remember, I haven't met you, Dan or Bogey. All I have to go on is what is posted. You are probably right that at least one instance was a joke, but I think the humour was lost in cyberspace.
Ciao
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Let's cut to the chase. Can some one here who knows tell me what is owed on the property and what can it be purchased for?
Don, is your involvement with Dismal River coloring your perspective? You didn't use to be a romantic when it came to golf. The universe of people who are willing to pay for our version of "quality" golf is rather limited and, I suspect, not all that financially endowed.
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I agree with Jim here, 100%. He didn't invest in Ballyneal, he joined, and the club has every opportunity to come of this better and more healthy. Any smart owner would want to keep the members and keep them very happy.
Rob Rigg is on the mark too, as is Don.
No one here knows what is really going on there, other than the mortgagor wasn't paid. I can imagine several scenarios where the members can still recoup (part or all of) their investment and still enjoy the club, a place they obviously like very much.
Many people look for blame. If that is you, blame the economy. Its ravaging the entire industry.
The destination golf model is alive and well and those who make the choice are pleased to have done so. At Dismal, we don't charge an arm and a leg to join, and our dues are probably alot less than your home club, and we will have two of the best courses, lodging and culinary in the business. It works but it ain't easy. We have happy members, most of whom are big fans and, dare I say, friends. It isn't hard to get to a handful of times a year, and thats what they were built to serve. These aren't national membership clubs, they are national destination clubs. A different animal entirely.
I would caution against members buying the club. There is a huge difference between being a member and being an owner - just ask the good men who were part of Dismal V2. Ownership is a million details. If the deal was fair to both the lender, members, we would love to have a look if we are welcome by all involved. Ballyneal has great people and great members - thats a recipe for success but I can assure you, nobody will make a killing. This is a labor of love and love of the game.
Lets all wait to see how things shake out before we throw dirt on a fine club or a great concept. Yes, the course is very good, but every great club has great people.
Ballyneal will survive and remain a great club. We are cheering for her and will do anything we can to help. That's what neighbors do.
No offense Chris, but for once can we have a conversation on this board that doesn't turn into a blaring neon advertisement for Dismal River.
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I am amazed that this thread is 218 post. You guys need to take a deep breath and sit back. Somebody will work this out and I would bet they would welcome the former members in a second.
I would say that there are some courses out there right now where if they were given to you, you could not bring in the revenue to keep it open because of the way they are set up but BN should work. I would guess that if BN could bring in $100,000 per month in revenues somebody can make it work.
So you guys go back to watching reruns of Napoleon Dynamite. ;D ;D
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I agree with Jim here, 100%. He didn't invest in Ballyneal, he joined, and the club has every opportunity to come of this better and more healthy. Any smart owner would want to keep the members and keep them very happy.
Rob Rigg is on the mark too, as is Don.
No one here knows what is really going on there, other than the mortgagor wasn't paid. I can imagine several scenarios where the members can still recoup (part or all of) their investment and still enjoy the club, a place they obviously like very much.
Many people look for blame. If that is you, blame the economy. Its ravaging the entire industry.
The destination golf model is alive and well and those who make the choice are pleased to have done so. At Dismal, we don't charge an arm and a leg to join, and our dues are probably alot less than your home club, and we will have two of the best courses, lodging and culinary in the business. It works but it ain't easy. We have happy members, most of whom are big fans and, dare I say, friends. It isn't hard to get to a handful of times a year, and thats what they were built to serve. These aren't national membership clubs, they are national destination clubs. A different animal entirely.
I would caution against members buying the club. There is a huge difference between being a member and being an owner - just ask the good men who were part of Dismal V2. Ownership is a million details. If the deal was fair to both the lender, members, we would love to have a look if we are welcome by all involved. Ballyneal has great people and great members - thats a recipe for success but I can assure you, nobody will make a killing. This is a labor of love and love of the game.
Lets all wait to see how things shake out before we throw dirt on a fine club or a great concept. Yes, the course is very good, but every great club has great people.
Ballyneal will survive and remain a great club. We are cheering for her and will do anything we can to help. That's what neighbors do.
No offense Chris, but for once can we have a conversation on this board that doesn't turn into a blaring neon advertisement for Dismal River.
Sorry, Sven. My post was in support of Ballyneal and had little to do with Dismal. If you don't like my posts, I recommend you choose not to read them...just pass them over. If you don't like Dismal, feel free not to come out. I share information when I think I can contribute to a topic.
Mike Young - I agree with you too.
No offense, but I'll post what I like.
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Sven,
I for one appreciate the enthusiasm and spirit for the game that Chris has brought to the forum and he's certainly put his actions behind his words in a very turbulent environment. I see it exactly like he does...a healthy "sand hills" region is best for the most amount of people when everyone wins... and with that I wish all the success in the world for every club in the extended area.
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I'm with Mike Young on this one. It's a bidness issue. Will get sorted out. Let's get back to something else we know less about, which doesn't narrow the field, but you get my drift.
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Pat,
You've made my day, Three green replies in one day!
From your replies it is obvious you haven't been to Ballyneal as you don't seem to grasp the situation there very well.
Pete,
I stated that I'd never been to BN, however, you might be surprised about how much I know about the situation.
There is a big difference, at least in my mind, between a destination club and a club with national members.
I think you've identified the problem, your "mind"
By definition the national member club has a stable base of local members and simply fills out the remaining times on the tee sheet with national
members who drop by a few times a year, their revenue is greatly appreciated.
How would you categorize Pine Valley ?
Hidden Creek?
Sand Hills ?
Seminole ?
ANGC ?
However you must be located near a dense population base for this model to survive.
Denver ?
Augusta ?
Atlantic City ?
Palm Beach ?
Ballyneals' model was to sell 130 memberships at $70K each; this is a destination club.
I would wager there are very few members who live within 150 miles.
Extend it out another few miles to 175 so that you include the greater Denver area and I'll take that wager. [/b][/size]
Sand Hills is a destination club, I know you have been there. I'm sure you know that all the members there paid they same initiation and dues, irrespective of how far they live from the Sand Hills.
That's because EVERYONE lives far away.
Denver isn't that far from BN, probably equivalent to NY and Philly when PV started.
Same for ANGC, very few locals, lots of NY'ers.
SH and BN don't have a significant local membership and neither did PV initially, but BN can draw "locals" from Denver.
The objection I had to your original post was twofold. First I disagree with your notion that you can turn a destination club into a national
membership club without seriously alienating the members who ponied up the big bucks.
On what basis or experiences do you draw from when making that statement ?
If my club offered a national membership to people living 1,500 miles away, I couldn't care less, and my club isn't in financial distress.
You should also know that many of Trump's courses have members who paid differing initiation fees and I haven't noticed any discord between the members. Are you under the impression that members only play with those members who paid the same initiation fee ?
Just like you didn't want people who pay a big nut to join a private have to put up with casual play at a bargain basement price.
That you don't understand the distinction is mind boggling, providing strong support for my recommendation that you be prohibited from posting words other than "yes" , "no" and "maybe"
My biggest surprise was when you suggested unaccompanied play!
ONLY when sponsored by a member
Don't forget this is still a private club; there could be sex offenders and ex-felons who accept your generous suggestion.
If you're angling for an invitation, forget it.
I have, however, sponsored many of my degenerate friends
Think of the liability issues, they are no diiferent from Merion or NLGA just because this club is located in the chop hills of Co.
Obviously, you're unfamiliar with the vetting process.
When you have a membership screening process you have the ability to eliminate undesirables such as yourself, but when you provide unfetteres access to total strangers, that's how you let the riff raff and those walking and riding "liabilities" on your property.
Before Ran takes action, please confine all of your future answers and comments to the words, "yes", "no" and "maybe"
Thanks
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Let's cut to the chase. Can some one here who knows tell me what is owed on the property and what can it be purchased for?
Don, is your involvement with Dismal River coloring your perspective? You didn't use to be a romantic when it came to golf. The universe of people who are willing to pay for our version of "quality" golf is rather limited and, I suspect, not all that financially endowed.
Lou, if one used the "accountant" angle in everything they did, there wouldn't be much golf played and the world could do with a lot less restaurants and other non-essential business.
If I owned a club in some remote area that was perfect for golf like the sand hills, I don't need a universe of people; I just need a couple hundred who want to be a part of something very cool. Playing golf has never really made any business sense has it?
I've always loved the game, so in that way maybe I have romantic ideas, but I'm very much a pragmatist about how golf courses should be operated, no matter where they are located.
Working at Dismal River has given me the opportunity to see some of the greatest golfing land in the world. Most people will never get it, and would never spend the time getting there or the money to join a club out in the middle of no where. But, if great golf stirs your soul, then sometimes you leave your accountant out of the conversation.
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If I owned a club in some remote area that was perfect for golf like the sand hills, I don't need a universe of people; I just need a couple hundred who want to be a part of something very cool. Playing golf has never really made any business sense has it?
I've always loved the game, so in that way maybe I have romantic ideas, but I'm very much a pragmatist about how golf courses should be operated, no matter where they are located.
Working at Dismal River has given me the opportunity to see some of the greatest golfing land in the world. Most people will never get it, and would never spend the time getting there or the money to join a club out in the middle of no where. But, if great golf stirs your soul, then sometimes you leave your accountant out of the conversation.
Well said, Don.
As to Lou: You may be correct that it would be crazy to develop a new property in the Sand Hills region today. But, Ballyneal is already there, and the bottom line is that it will thrive when the debt is written down to a small fraction of what's there now. I'm not sure if they have ever operated in the black for a year, but they certainly could, if they didn't have to find some way to pay down the debt. That day will come, it's just a matter of how fast the creditors come to understand it.
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"You guys need to take a deep breath and sit back. Somebody will work this out and I would bet they would welcome the former members in a second."
Yep. The right price is there. It will take a little work to find it.
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While I enjoy talking about the business and have a bit of experience in it, I want nothing but the best for the place. It sounds wonderful. Hopefully a plan will come to fruition that allows the place to thrive. While I am on the east coast I am a CU grad and love Colorado and would consider a membership if the economics where affordable to me. Sounds like a place any avid golfer would love.
Dan
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Tom Doak,
I think the ultimate success of Ballyneal may be determined by the eventual owner and whether he/they are in it for the profit or for the passion.
Clubs that were the product of passion seem to fare better than those that were the product of profit.
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Don, Tom, and all who wish for the best for a great place in a great place...Right On!
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The destination golf model is alive and well and those who make the choice are pleased to have done so. At Dismal, we don't charge an arm and a leg to join, and our dues are probably alot less than your home club, and we will have two of the best courses, lodging and culinary in the business. It works but it ain't easy. We have happy members, most of whom are big fans and, dare I say, friends. It isn't hard to get to a handful of times a year, and thats what they were built to serve. These aren't national membership clubs, they are national destination clubs. A different animal entirely.
I would caution against members buying the club. There is a huge difference between being a member and being an owner - just ask the good men who were part of Dismal V2. Ownership is a million details. If the deal was fair to both the lender, members, we would love to have a look if we are welcome by all involved. Ballyneal has great people and great members - thats a recipe for success but I can assure you, nobody will make a killing. This is a labor of love and love of the game.
No offense Chris, but for once can we have a conversation on this board that doesn't turn into a blaring neon advertisement for Dismal River.
Sorry, Sven. My post was in support of Ballyneal and had little to do with Dismal. If you don't like my posts, I recommend you choose not to read them...just pass them over. If you don't like Dismal, feel free not to come out. I share information when I think I can contribute to a topic.
Chris, a couple of questions if I may:
Isn't the first paragraph you quoted promoting Dismal River? You have every right to be proud of your club, but can't you see how people might find praising the merits of your own club off-putting when it's done on a thread about financial issues at a different club?
What did you mean by the "if the deal was fair" comment in the second paragraph? I want to be sure I don't misunderstand.
Thanks
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Hi John
Nope. I was merely pointing out what has been mentioned elsewhere in the thread - today, value sells. High costs don't work real well these days - Dismal was but an example where I have first hand knowledge to share. Others have pointed out seperate examples here and in the national club thread. Ballyneal is unbelievably good but we have learned even the very best can't escape current economic reality. The business is tough today, for everyone. My intent was not to promote, it was to support. I like the guys at Ballyneal.
wrt to "fair" - the members have done a ton to help build the club and shouldn't be washed away in a foreclosure. As an acquisitions guy, I believe a deal must be fair to the owner(s), the members, and any other constituents, if any. A good deal is one where everyone has a chance to win and/or benefit. While I won't talk about DR as it apparently offends some thinner skins here, all parties were treated in this manner when we stepped in. It was a win-win. Simply I believe this is the best path and a worthy goal. I'm sure you agree.
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Chris,
Thanks for the clarification. Your "fair" sentence in the second paragraph sounded like you were offering to buy Ballyneal, but I guess you were just offering your thoughts on how the groups should interact. Sorry for misunderstanding.
You're right that other people have offered up examples in the national club thread, but it feels different to me since that's not a thread about the situation at Ballyneal. I don't doubt your intentions at all, but it just doesn't seem right to see this sort of comment on this particular thread (no matter how well-meaning the intent).
At Dismal, we don't charge an arm and a leg to join, and our dues are probably alot less than your home club, and we will have two of the best courses, lodging and culinary in the business. It works but it ain't easy. We have happy members, most of whom are big fans and, dare I say, friends
Thanks again for clarifying your intentions. So easy to misunderstand people in this sort of medium.
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I think the ultimate success of Ballyneal may be determined by the eventual owner and whether he/they are in it for the profit or for the passion.
BINGO. There are good investments with our hard earned money and then there impassioned hobbies. They are different endeavors unless you are infinitely wealthy.
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Thanks, John! I'm glad you get it.
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I have not seen info about Forrest Dunes. THey dont have any bloggers?
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Ballyneal is already there, and the bottom line is that it will thrive when the debt is written down to a small fraction of what's there now. I'm not sure if they have ever operated in the black for a year, but they certainly could, if they didn't have to find some way to pay down the debt. That day will come, it's just a matter of how fast the creditors come to understand it.
Exactly.
As with any infrastructure project, it is servicing the debt incurred to build the thing that can cripple the ongoing business. Take the debt away - as happens in a bankruptcy - and whoever buys the asset at a fraction of what it cost to build will have a much better chance of making the new business model work.
As Tom says, sooner or later the creditors have to realise that their money is gone...
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Sven, John: I thought the same thing when I read that. Good to see the above exchange clarifying.
It is somewhat unsettling (for want of a better word) reading sentiments this week re: Ballyneal saying "it must be saved", "golf needs Ballyneal" etc from some people who to the best of my knowledge do not belong to a golf club. At the risk of agreeing with John Kavanaugh (;)), if you're not part of the solution, you might be part of the problem.
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I have not seen info about Forrest Dunes. THey dont have any bloggers?
[/quote
There were definitely threads on both Forest Dunes and Lochenheath. Financials were certainly discussed.
You're right in that not nearly as many people cared and also, nobody had problems with the discussion or speculation.
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Sven, John: I thought the same thing when I read that. Good to see the above exchange clarifying.
It is somewhat unsettling (for want of a better word) reading sentiments this week re: Ballyneal saying "it must be saved", "golf needs Ballyneal" etc from some people who to the best of my knowledge do not belong to a golf club. At the risk of agreeing with John Kavanaugh (;)), if you're not part of the solution, you might be part of the problem.
Scott,
I don't think you need to be a member of a club to understand that Ballyneal is a special golf course and should continue to operate. Long before I had any ability to join a golf club, I knew it was important to golf architecture. Some paintings are better and more valuable (in every sense of the word) than others. Ballyneal is one of those special pieces of work.
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Sven, John: I thought the same thing when I read that. Good to see the above exchange clarifying.
It is somewhat unsettling (for want of a better word) reading sentiments this week re: Ballyneal saying "it must be saved", "golf needs Ballyneal" etc from some people who to the best of my knowledge do not belong to a golf club. At the risk of agreeing with John Kavanaugh (;)), if you're not part of the solution, you might be part of the problem.
So if I don't have enough wealth/income to join Ballyneal or other private clubs, I am part of the problem? This is one of the more ridiculous statements I have ever seen on this discussion forum.
I had the honor and pleasure of playing at the inaugural Yucca Cup at Ballyneal last summer, due to Jim Colton's generosity. Easily the most enjoyable time I have ever had playing golf, due to the people attending the event, the hospitality of Ballyneal's employees, and the amazing golf course. I feel that if Ballyneal were closed it would be a great loss, but I do not worry that this will happen.
I won't speculate on how this situation will resolve, and I have no insight into these financial matters anyhow, especially compared to many people on this forum who have far more expertise than I. But I do take exception to your statement that I am somehow part of the problem because I am a public golfer.
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This site would be a whole lot less interesting if people directly involved in the industry didn't share their experiences. Please don't anyone try to encourage people to share less. If you aren't interested, ignore it and let the rest of us continue to enjoy it.
Sean, though we haven't met - and I haven't met Dan or Bogey either - I certainly can understand when someone is joking. Dan is one of the nicest, most considerate people on this site. Maybe he should have just emailed me the poster; that would have been the safer thing to do. But then anyone who saw it and laughed would have missed out. Context - particularly with respect to the poster - matters greatly.
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Let's all agree that Ballyneal is a great golf course and we are all optimistic that it will survive.
Concerning the finances of the club we have no idea how much it cost to build, how much debt there is, how much it costs to operate, how many rounds are played, etc. so why are we going off in all directions giving opinions with respect to how it can survive?
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Sean, though we haven't met - and I haven't met Dan or Bogey either - I certainly can understand when someone is joking. Dan is one of the nicest, most considerate people on this site.
George, so where does that leave me? ;)
Bogey
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Is it possible that Ballyneal could thrive if it didn't price itself out of the young generation? IMO Ballyneal is the anti uber-private golf club but still a world class golf course. The laid back attitude and casual feel of Ballyneal is what made me fall in love with Ballyneal. This atmosphere, I would guess, is what younger people want from golf. All the greatness of golf and a great course without all the “rules”.
That being said, as a young professional 70K at this point is well beyond my means, and in this economy I would guess I’m in the majority. Would it be so bad if Ballyneal kept the basic model it has as a destination course but allow a younger generation to actually look at joining with a lower initiation and dues? Along the lines of Pat Mucci's proposal? Would more members really taint this place? I don't think so, but the world of national/destination memberships is lost on me as I don't/can't have one at this time. Hopefully in a few years I will have a better idea, meaning I'll somehow be a member of Ballyneal.
I know Ballyneal will be just fine one way or another. Its way to freaking good not to
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Sean, though we haven't met - and I haven't met Dan or Bogey either - I certainly can understand when someone is joking. Dan is one of the nicest, most considerate people on this site.
George, so where does that leave me? ;)
Bogey
:) Sadly, with me.
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Harris,
But the question is how many more members? There is only so much room to put people and with a short season, weekends could get booked very quick.
I know of one member who couldn't go two different times this year because the club was full. Imagine if there are hundreds of members and they can send unescorted guests.
That doesn't work either.
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If I owned a club in some remote area that was perfect for golf like the sand hills, I don't need a universe of people; I just need a couple hundred who want to be a part of something very cool. Playing golf has never really made any business sense has it?
I've always loved the game, so in that way maybe I have romantic ideas, but I'm very much a pragmatist about how golf courses should be operated, no matter where they are located.
Working at Dismal River has given me the opportunity to see some of the greatest golfing land in the world. Most people will never get it, and would never spend the time getting there or the money to join a club out in the middle of no where. But, if great golf stirs your soul, then sometimes you leave your accountant out of the conversation.
Well said, Don.
As to Lou: You may be correct that it would be crazy to develop a new property in the Sand Hills region today. But, Ballyneal is already there, and the bottom line is that it will thrive when the debt is written down to a small fraction of what's there now. I'm not sure if they have ever operated in the black for a year, but they certainly could, if they didn't have to find some way to pay down the debt. That day will come, it's just a matter of how fast the creditors come to understand it.
Now, Don, are you calling me a bean counter ???? ;) (Ok, I'll fess up, I was a CMA for a few years during my days in the corp. world, but I was primarily a strategy and financial guy.) My point is that clubs of this type, even really, really good ones, have a rather thin market, i.e. there are relatively few people in a sport that's for the most part declining in both participation and, reportedly, intensity (my own term for rounds played by core golfers) who would fork-up relatively big money for even a hugely spiritually satisfying experience. While we have many simpaticos on this site who would on occasion wander to the middle of nowhere (no disrespect to the sand belt area) for golf, I suspect that we're a very unrepresentative sample. It is not just you looking for a "couple hundred", but you, Chris, Dick, and perhaps quite a few others with equal passion.
Concering love and romance, unfortunately, it is not just about operating the course that's the issue here. There are those nasty but necessary capital costs to build and then support the infrastructure as a going concern. Passion does come into play here and I suspect that the type of courses we're talking about require multiple doses of that.
In one of today's papers, George Will quotes Thomas Sowell- "The first lesson of economics is scarcity. There is never enough of anything to fully satisfy all those who want it. The first lesson of politics is to disregard the first lesson of economics". Whether we are talking about the bigger problems of the U.S. economy or the golf industry, money is scarce and there aren't too many folks who will WILLINGLY fund deficits out of their pocket primarily for the benefit of others. Unfortunately for the industry, unlike Big Brother, golf course owners don't have the power to compel a relative few to dig deeper into their pockets to satisfy the desires of much larger numbers (or the latter to buy memberships and/or pay green fees).
Tom D,
Where did I suggest that someone would be crazy to develop a new property anywhere? What people do with their own money is their business. It would be nuts (and an impossibility) for me to build a new course, but for Don's partner or someone who might otherwise build a $50 Million house, why not?
I fully agree that the capital investments put into Ballyneal are essentially sunk costs. The question is what capital structure can be supported by the property as a golf course vs. the alternative use of the land. Can an operator like Don run the course in a manner that generates sufficient revenues to cover operating expenses and capital improvements? Are there enough "passionate" golfers who will put up the necessary investment and working capital to then acquire the property out of foreclosure?
From the reports of the course from Adam Clayman and others whose opinions I trust, I have no doubt that Ballyneal is a great course. I am very interested in these answers.
Chris J,
Take no offense. Keep posting. I've read nothing unseemly or improper in your comments. I hope your efforts at DR are properly rewarded.
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Lou, to be completely frank, I find you questioning me about my involvement at Dismal River out of line, as is your comment about my partner and a $50 million dollar house. I'm the same guy I've always been and I'm not sure where you’re going with that sort of dialog.
Last week I called Patrick Mucci a master of the obvious and he called me testy. Can we all agree that developing a golf course in a remote area may be a challenging business model? I don't think I've ever read so many smart guys find so many different ways to try and justify that it’s a tough deal. Quite sure that all involved deduced it was a tough deal long before the first shovel went into the ground.
It is my belief, and always had been, that just because there is no guarantee, and even though the finance types in the world may say you’re nuts, some ideas are still worth chasing.
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Last week I called Patrick Mucci a master of the obvious and he called me testy. Can we all agree that developing a golf course in a remote area may be a challenging business model? I don't think I've ever read so many smart guys find so many different ways to try and justify that it’s a tough deal. Quite sure that all involved deduced it was a tough deal long before the first shovel went into the ground.
It is my belief, and always had been, that just because there is no guarantee, and even though the finance types in the world may say you’re nuts, some ideas are still worth chasing.
Love it.
As you may have overlooked, one of the worst qualities of smart people is that they think they know everything - especially about everyone else's life and work. Although, I don't think that is what Lou's doing, he's simply trying to reconcile your romantic side with your practical side. He's forgetting that there's more than one side to most of us! :)
You couldn't be more right about the dream aspect of golf. And that's true of many businesses, if you think about it. There are a lot of "easier" ways to make money than to open a restaurant, yet the world is littered with attempts, failed and successful. And running a restaurant is far from easy, kind of like a golf course.
I can honestly say my accountant relishes my decision to follow my dream. Now my wife, on the other hand...
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Speaking existentially about golf; there's nothing pragmatic about it. Why must the existence of Ballyneal (or any other golf club for that matter) be questioned in regards to feasibility? It's about joy, fun, peace with a bigger force, art. There's nothing pragmatic about any of those things.
As a disclaimer, there CAN be pragmatism in how you manage golf.
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Speaking existentially about golf; there's nothing pragmatic about it. Why must the existence of Ballyneal (or any other golf club for that matter) be questioned in regards to feasibility? It's about joy, fun, peace with a bigger force, art. There's nothing pragmatic about any of those things.
As a disclaimer, there CAN be pragmatism in how you manage golf.
And that's what Don does well, reconciling the two.
Golf is not unique, btw - I'd argue that outside of food, shelter and clothing (especially t shirts!), many industries are not necessarily pragmatic and most are built on dreams. The beauty of the capitalist system is that we are all free to choose our indulgences - and we are all better for it. Sorry about the digression and propaganda...
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This is all a bit silly. If you distill the dollars and cents guys, we'd all just find the cheapest course with bargain basement annual dues and play there daily year round, sort of the antithesis of what much of this site is about. If you place a premium on top notch golf without breaking the bank, there probably hasn't been a better time to look at one of these clubs since the great depression.
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I think there is always a level of "feasibility" that should always be included in any discussion when it comes to when and where to build a golf course. You can build the most awesome course in the world on a teeny sand based island in the middle of the pacific somewhere...but if just getting to it cost thousands of dollars and 20 hours of travel, then that should be given its due weight.
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"As Tom says, sooner or later the creditors have to realise that their money is gone..."
Only the unsecured creditors, and the members, their money is gone.
The real creditors, well, I guess they now own a golf course.
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My guess is that the Ballyneal debt situation is a bit more complicated than simply buying out a bank note (at whatever price) and formulating a new membership structure. Obviously, those in the know do not want to discuss it here. Hopefully whatever intricacies that exist in getting this settled will work themselves out and the club will end up in the right hands.
Until then, it makes little sense for anyone with no knowledge of exactly what the creditors and membership are dealing with to speculate on solutions. I'd suggest we wait for the good news to filter out when the time is right.
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Ballyneal Financing LLC
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Often times these places are created purely by the will of the person who wants to achieve something beyond dollars and cents and has the money to make it happen. Saratoga National in my area was created in this manner. I am not sure how it does financially but it's hard to imagine much of a return on capital but it very well may be operationally positive. The founder wanted to do it, spent what it took to meet his standards. Could he have spent less, sure but that wasn't the point. He could afford to follow a dream and did.
Perhaps there is another motivated person out there who just want to own something spectacular and has the means to make it happen. If it can be operationally profitable without debt that is a huge help.
Dan
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Jimmy Chandler,
So if I don't have enough wealth/income to join Ballyneal or other private clubs, I am part of the problem? This is one of the more ridiculous statements I have ever seen on this discussion forum ... I do take exception to your statement that I am somehow part of the problem because I am a public golfer.
You misunderstand my point, and perhaps I didn't make it as well as I could have.
I understand that there are people in golf who cannot join a club and support the game by paying green fees at public courses. This is effectively the same thing as joining a club in that they are supporting a golf course operator (or operators) and helps to keep those facilities open the same way joining a club helps to keep it open.
Completely different to that are the folks who elect not to join a club despite having the means and play predominantly as a guest at private clubs or as a rater. And truth be told I am an "to each their own" type of guy and don't really question their choice to do that until those same people lament the state of golf or make posts like those I referenced previously.
Public courses cannot survive without greenfee-paying customers. Clubs cannot survive without members. I'm not sure anyone who makes a choice to remove themselves from those two categories is in much of a position to lament the closure of a golfing facility.
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Just ran across a quotation from John Maynard Keynes that I'm pretty sure is a propos to this thread:
"If the animal spirits are dimmed and the spontaneous optimism falters, leaving us to depend on nothing but a mathematical expectation, enterprise will fade and die -- though fears of loss may have a basis no more reasonable than hopes of profit had before."
Here's the line in the (recommended) context where I read it -- in John Cassidy's "The Demand Doctor" (The New Yorker, 10/10/2011):
"In particular, Keynes understood how a financially driven economy, like ours, can go into self-sustaining downward spirals (and upward spirals) under the influence of crowd psychology and chronic uncertainty about the future. In the classical scheme of things, banks and financial markets are treated as abstractions, which effortlessly convert savings (money) into investment (forms of capital like factories or computers). Keynes pointed out that the link between savings and investment was far from straightforward. It relied on people who are looking to make quick profits, and who are susceptible to shortsightedness, herd behavior, and panic. 'Speculators may do no harm as bubbles on a steady stream of enterprise,' he commented. 'But the position is serious when enterprise becomes a bubble on the whirlpool of speculation. When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done.'
"The problem isn’t that Wall Street traders are reckless or stupid; Keynes had a wary respect for their smarts. The problem is that our investment choices can never be truly rationalized. 'If we speak frankly,' Keynes wrote, 'we have to admit that our basis of knowledge for estimating the yield ten years hence of a railway, a copper mine, a textile factory, the goodwill of a patent medicine, an Atlantic liner, a building in the City of London amounts to little and sometimes to nothing.' Keynes distinguished this sort of incalculable uncertainty from quantifiable risk—the risk, say, that your straight flush will be trumped by four of a kind, or that you will be killed at Russian roulette. When you decide to build a factory or take a flyer on the stock market, the arithmetic of probability and rational decision theory provide no real guidance. Such decisions can be taken, Keynes wrote, only as a result of 'animal spirits—of spontaneous urge to action rather than inaction, and not as the outcome of a weighted average of quantitative benefits multiplied by quantitative probabilities.'
"In a boom, when animal spirits are high, businesses and entrepreneurs are brimming with investment projects, which banks and other financial institutions are all too eager to finance. After a bust, the opposite applies. In Keynes’s words, 'If the animal spirits are dimmed and the spontaneous optimism falters, leaving us to depend on nothing but a mathematical expectation, enterprise will fade and die—though fears of loss may have a basis no more reasonable than hopes of profit had before.' Five years ago, banks were extending mortgages to anybody who walked in the door; today, many good borrowers can’t get credit. Corporate America, after jettisoning workers by the millions to preserve profits, is sitting on billions of dollars of cash. American households, known everywhere for their prodigal ways, have discovered the virtues of saving and thrift."
Read more at http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/10/10/111010fa_fact_cassidy#ixzz1e5yTpc50 (http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/10/10/111010fa_fact_cassidy#ixzz1e5yTpc50)
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Thanks, Dan for the brief respite from the revolving arguments by the uninformed yet certain. There are very few people hereabouts that have the education or experience to come to the judgments herein rendered. The rest has been nothing more than internet chat room drivel.
I'm guessing Colton wishes he hadn't posted this item on his blog.
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...nothing more than internet chat room drivel.
So true...nothing like your stirring input on the finer points of the hobbyist influence on modern architecture. That was pure gold! ;)
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Jimmy Chandler,
You misunderstand my point, and perhaps I didn't make it as well as I could have.
Ah, I understand now, and I apologize for any intemperate remarks on my behalf.
Trust me, if I could afford to join a club like Ballyneal I would in a heartbeat. Let's hope you and I get to play there together one day.
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No dramas mate, I could have expressed myself more thoroughly in the first instance and I know the cost of private golf in the US can be prohibitive.
Ballyneal is definitely on "the list". One day...
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Lou, to be completely frank, I find you questioning me about my involvement at Dismal River out of line, as is your comment about my partner and a $50 million dollar house. I'm the same guy I've always been and I'm not sure where you’re going with that sort of dialog.
Last week I called Patrick Mucci a master of the obvious and he called me testy. Can we all agree that developing a golf course in a remote area may be a challenging business model? I don't think I've ever read so many smart guys find so many different ways to try and justify that it’s a tough deal. Quite sure that all involved deduced it was a tough deal long before the first shovel went into the ground.
It is my belief, and always had been, that just because there is no guarantee, and even though the finance types in the world may say you’re nuts, some ideas are still worth chasing.
Don,
I am really sorry that you feel I was out of line. I must be a really, really poor writer because nothing that I tried to communicate regarding you, Ballyneal, Dismal River, Al, or anyone else was intended to be in a negative light. Not long ago, I asked a local GCAer to hit me over the head with a 2 by 4 everytime he saw me posting on this site. Your reply had the same effect.
Please cite where I have questioned your involvement at DR. The reference to your partner was in response to Tom Doak and it was highly positive- i.e. that I thought people should do whatever they want with their own money and that they might be one good source for new development of courses we like on this site.
Ditto for the $50 Million house. It was a reference in my reply to Tom to recent articles on a guy who was being criticized for building a 90,000 sf house and how he and others defended their right to do what they pleased with their own money. There was even a follow-up letter to the editor from a home builder noting how many jobs this guy created by having his home built. You of all people should know how strongly I feel about people doing what they please with their own money. It is those who seek to appropriate other people's money through government and the law for their own purposes who earn my ire.
Very disappointing, really.
George,
From what did you infer that I am forgetting that people are complex and multi-faceted? Life is much about reconciling conflicting feelings, thoughts, demands, etc. Being practical- a compliment I was trying to pay to Don, apparently very poorly in its articulation- is precisely about reaching that balance.
As to smart people, if "they" (the self-proclaimed) were right, there would be no such thing as a Bell Curve. Most people tend to think very highly of themselves and others who parrot their views, and correspondingly less of everyone else (the 4th Estate and the Academy is full of them).
The bottom line is that one doesn't have to be an Einstein to do well in most facets of life. By the same token, those with very high IQs aren't guaranteed to set the world on fire either. As you might guess, I much prefer being among the doers vs. the talkers; the makers vs. the takers. And I have never claimed to be very smart. Afterall, I went to the largest public university (at that time) in the U.S., far better known for its football program and fine golf course than famous alumni populating Washington and other centers that draw the "really smart" people.
Dan Kelly,
What would Keynes have to say about "animal spirits" in the public sector? Any evidence that our "servants" can ascertain the future any better? With government spending around 40% of GDP vs. 8% a century ago, shouldn't we have mastered those irrational overreactions by now?
For another more entertaining perspective:
http://econstories.tv/2010/06/22/fear-the-boom-and-bust/
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Article in the Holyoke paper with sparse details on the Ballyneal foreclosure. Auction date is March 7.
"Following input from members and the development of a new business plan, Ballyneal intends to re-emerge as a member-oriented club that continues to provide its members quality facilities and a wonderful golf experience,” said GM Matt Payne.
http://www.holyokeenterprise.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=4679:ballyneal-foreclosure-procedure-initiated-rebuilding-anticipated&catid=35:agbusiness&Itemid=54
(http://www.holyokeenterprise.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=4679:ballyneal-foreclosure-procedure-initiated-rebuilding-anticipated&catid=35:agbusiness&Itemid=54)
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I'm thinking about bidding. [Blatant membership selling alert] Who wants to join Ballyneal 2.0?
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Good luck, Jim. I hope you get it!!
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Jim,
I have been watching a lot of auctions shows lately. I think the key is to show up in a really flashy car, hoping to scare people off, and then when you bid, do it very loudly and obnoxiously. I believe this method will help in letting other potential buyers know you are interested. Either that, or the guys on TV are total dicks!
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I'm thinking about bidding. [Blatant membership selling alert] Who wants to join Ballyneal 2.0?
Terms???
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I'd love to be in on this....I'm guessing there'll be more than 1 bidder showing up for this one...
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I'd love to be in on this....I'm guessing there'll be more than 1 bidder showing up for this one...
Jud:
Really? It's one thing if a buyer has incredibly deep pockets and doesn't care if the club runs a profit, but I would love to hear people's thoughts as to why they would actually want to lever up and purchase Ballyneal. No doubt it's a great place, but it would have to be an extremely risky business decision.
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I suppose alot depends on what the reserve price is, in terms of how many are going to show up and whether it could potentially be a profitable endevaour at some point in time.
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I'm only talking about buying it at or below today's fair market price, not eating an above market portion of the note. Without a huge debt there's no reason the club, run properly, shouldn't be successful IMO.
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Isn't it the third owner that reaps the success?
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I'm only talking about buying it at or below today's fair market price, not eating an above market portion of the note. Without a huge debt, there's no reason the club, run properly, shouldn't be successful IMO.
I don't mean to hurt anyone's feelings with my comments, only that I'm interested as to the financial risk associated with purchasing this from auction.
Let's assume you buy the mortgage for $3MM (I think I remember the note is for ~$4MM). Assuming you somehow find a bank willing to give you a 25 year $2.5MM note @ 5.00% (little cushion built in)= (-$235M in annual P&I payments)
It costs you $1.5MM a year to keep the facilities running, all in. (-$1.5MM)
You have ~150 members paying ~$5,000 a year in dues. (+$500M)
Significant guest play fees, lodging, pro shop, etc.. (+$250M), F&B breaks even.
That's a $985M loss.
Would you still buy it?
Granted the math above is hardly a detailed financial model, nor does it take into account any actual information from Ballyneal's books. However, my guess is that either Ballyneal needs about 100 more members paying similar or higher dues, or whomever buys the course would have to have deep pockets and no mortgage.
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I've been saving this picture for Mark's awesome Ballyneal thread, but with the circumstances of uncertainty lingering, it is my hope that posting it here serves as a reminder to everyone who's been out that it truly is a special place and I trust that many more fortunate souls will have an opportunity to experience it again this season and beyond.
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/photo-159.jpg?t=1309475988)
I wish a bright and prosperous future for Ballyneal.
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Pat,
That doesn't sound too exciting. Clearly you're going to need to get some more members. I don't see why they couldn't follow the same model as Dismal however. If anything it's a better location given the weekenders from Denver.
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Pat,
That doesn't sound too exciting. Clearly you're going to need to get some more members. I don't see why they couldn't follow the same model as Dismal however. If anything it's a better location given the weekenders from Denver.
Of course there are some hardcore golfers that would be an exception, but people in Denver generally look west for their entertainment and activities, not east.
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Tim,
There's 2.4mm people in the metro area. Getting 50-100 members at one of the best courses in the world at a reasonable price isn't much of a stretch IMO...
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Okay...one piece of advice...and I'll shut up...
Don't pay $3mm on a $4mm dollar note for a piece of property on the court house steps.
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Jim:
Good luck with the auction. I hope that the course obtains the right owners.
If there is karma in this world, your good deeds of 2011 deserve this to work out for you.
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Okay...one piece of advice...and I'll shut up...
Don't pay $3mm on a $4mm dollar note for a piece of property on the court house steps.
Just an assumption Mac. Even with no debt and current membership levels it's hard to imagine it running a profit. In reality, they need about 400-500 members (paying comparable dues to other Sand Hills clubs), or the same number of members paying much more than they are now.
I hope Ballyneal survives and prospers as by all accounts is a great place, but it most likely needs an owner with a huge checkbook.
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Pat,
I'm not going to go into assumptions, but I'm closer to BN's actual numbers and I can tell you in reality that it doesn't need 400-500 members to make it. If that's the case, then they should just let it go to pasture.
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Best of luck.
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Sounds like things are happening and that is a good thing. Too good a place, and too many good people, for any other outcome.
Who knows, maybe two or more great places can work together. Sounds fun to me, and fun is the name of the game.
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How long before this thread turns ugly??
12 pages isn't enough?
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Sounds like things are happening and that is a good thing. Too good a place, and too many good people, for any other outcome.
Who knows, maybe two or more great places can work together. Sounds fun to me, and fun is the name of the game.
. How would that happen?
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A couple questions.
1) how much land is part of ballyneal which is not part of the course?
2) what are the zoning options for the area?
From an investment perspective, the property is worth $1 than its next best use. If there is no possible for any development, then the price will probably be 40% on the dollar.
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A few points to consider the owner doesn't have to sell the note. They can outbid other bidders and prevent a fire sale. This is a necessary step in perhaps the note holder taking control of the property? I obviously don't know any particulars but I went through this at my club last Spring. My assumption based on what little I know the note holder isn't going to let the note go cheap. Otherwise they would just sell the note prior and not have the foreclosure costs and time delay that a foreclosure takes. Banks prefer to sell the note as then they aren't dealing with the costs of maintaining or shutting down the place. Let alone the balane sheet issues of an oreo. Assuming they are looking to get recap as much money as possible they would have to maintain the golf course and perhaps commit to opening it for members or public. Otherwise it gets very expensive to bring back at a later date.
What little I have read on this saga is the debt holder is a private individual not a bank?
Lastly assuming the note is 4 million as mentioned in the thread and what actually is the security for the note; land, equipment, furnishing or everything based on what I read here about how wonderful the place is that seems cheap. Not necessarily cheap as profitable to operate but cheap relative to replacement costs. There are plenty of folks who can write a few million dollar check and operate it purely for their own enjoyment and that of their invited guests without worry all that much about the operating costs. I have no idea if the place is "special" enough to be that type of purchase. There is an much larger population that can write the check with the thoughts of breaking even on it but holding the asset. Of course if it is a wonderful as I read about here what about a Mike Keiser type of buyer the experience and money to make it a true destination?
Anyhow I have a bit of experience with golf course forclosures and if I can be helpful to any one feel free to PM me.
BTW my club, nothing special and BofA sold the note in auction for 1.575 million on a 4 million note and a 5 million appraisal. I had struck a deal with the bank prior to buy it for 1.1 million and have the membership all put up 5k but the members wouldn't do it. I didn't do it myself as the return on my investment didn't seem good enough and there were lots of risks that I couldn't afford.
Dan
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If you pay 1.5 mill for a 5 mill foreclosure today. you paid too much. I'm seeing 4.5 mill foreclosures go for $650000. And some of those are not good deals...
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If you pay 1.5 mill for a 5 mill foreclosure today. you paid too much. I'm seeing 4.5 mill foreclosures go for $650000. And some of those are not good deals...
Not necessarily, and certainly not in all markets. In good markets with prospects for gowth, replacement cost of quality real estate has relevance. As long as there is demand, the key is a sound capital structure behind a superior product, providing a competitive advantage despite the cycles of the economy.
It is my understanding that the note in question posted for foreclosure is one of several. I also hear that there are other title/ownership issues that will require some work to resolve them. An advantage of completing the foreclosure is that junior liens and other title defects can be wiped-out. The hope here is that the lienholder understands the alternative value of his collateral and the likelihood that there is not a white knight with plenty of cash and love for the club to make him whole. He, being much closer to the situation than most of us, might have better information (e.g. there could be a few members who can easily write a check to save the club) to guide his decision. However, if he has deep pockets and no one steps up soon, I hope that he will support the maintenance of the club until someone does. Dry, wind-swept sandy soil erodes quickly; nature will reclaim the site in short order if unabated.
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Tim,
There's 2.4mm people in the metro area. Getting 50-100 members at one of the best courses in the world at a reasonable price isn't much of a stretch IMO...
Jud,
The "reasonable price" bit is the trick--to some, around $50,000 is more than reasonable for a course of the quality of Ballyneal; for others, not so much. I could be out of the loop on this--that's certainly possible--but I continue to be surprised, in my experience, by how few golfers in Denver know much about Ballyneal. I don't know the reason for this.
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Tim,
There's 2.4mm people in the metro area. Getting 50-100 members at one of the best courses in the world at a reasonable price isn't much of a stretch IMO...
Jud,
The "reasonable price" bit is the trick--to some, around $50,000 is more than reasonable for a course of the quality of Ballyneal; for others, not so much. I could be out of the loop on this--that's certainly possible--but I continue to be surprised, in my experience, by how few golfers in Denver know much about Ballyneal. I don't know the reason for this.
Tim,
I believe Ballyneal suffers in the Denver market because it is not far enough away to be a true destination course. It's a tweener.
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Tim,
There's 2.4mm people in the metro area. Getting 50-100 members at one of the best courses in the world at a reasonable price isn't much of a stretch IMO...
Jud,
The "reasonable price" bit is the trick--to some, around $50,000 is more than reasonable for a course of the quality of Ballyneal; for others, not so much. I could be out of the loop on this--that's certainly possible--but I continue to be surprised, in my experience, by how few golfers in Denver know much about Ballyneal. I don't know the reason for this.
Tim,
I believe Ballyneal suffers in the Denver market because it is not far enough away to be a true destination course. It's a tweener.
John,
I think that's true. A corollary to that is, for about the same or less time, you can be in the mountains enjoying some okay golf and other activities with your family at cooler temperatures rather than playing links golf on the parched fairways of eastern Colorado. We here sometimes forget that links golf is not everyone's cup of tea--some people, even hardcore golfers, don't like the lack of trees, shade, water hazards, etc.
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Tim,
I have no inside knowledge but I'm guessing the downstroke may be somewhat different under the new regime. Perhaps you hit on a key point. If you live in Denver you might say "Why should I pay the same downstroke for a club X hours away when I can join a local club for the same $$'s?" Change the cost structure and Denver golf nuts might be coming out of the woodwork...
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The amount of speculation and misinformation on this thread serves no purpose other than to muddy the waters. As stated before, the folks who really know what is going on with Ballyneal 2.0 are keeping things pretty close to the chest, for good reasons. Its a trickier situation than most realize, and involves more than just figuring out the numbers.
I find this type of talk akin to a neighbor openly discussing how much he'd pay to buy the house out from under the family of four that can't make their mortgage payment because both parents lost their jobs. If it was your club facing a reorg, would you want to log on here and read a bunch of uninformed posts from uninvolved parties about what should be done?
Please let this be the last post on this thread.
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Tim,
I have no inside knowledge but I'm guessing the downstroke may be somewhat different under the new regime. Perhaps you hit on a key point. If you live in Denver you might say "Why should I pay the same downstroke for a club X hours away when I can join a local club for the same $$'s?" Change the cost structure and Denver golf nuts might be coming out of the woodwork...
Jud,
I absolutely believe that to be the case.
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If there is value in the Ballyneal asset, I am confident that a smart businessman (or group of) will make a play for it on the steps of the courthouse, at a price that will allow them to meet or exceed their financial objective for this investment.
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People still buy boats.
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To help stem the numbers speculation, some real details via Pete Finch:
http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/blogs/wheres-matty-g/2012/01/trouble-at-ballyneal-whats-the.html#entry-more (http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/blogs/wheres-matty-g/2012/01/trouble-at-ballyneal-whats-the.html#entry-more)
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Any chance they add carts? Walking only limits the number of golfers who could be members.
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Any chance they add carts? Walking only limits the number of golfers who could be members.
Good question. Might help with folks getting in a late round after coming in from Denver or before they head to the airport.
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The amount of speculation and misinformation on this thread serves no purpose other than to muddy the waters. As stated before, the folks who really know what is going on with Ballyneal 2.0 are keeping things pretty close to the chest, for good reasons. Its a trickier situation than most realize, and involves more than just figuring out the numbers.
I find this type of talk akin to a neighbor openly discussing how much he'd pay to buy the house out from under the family of four that can't make their mortgage payment because both parents lost their jobs. If it was your club facing a reorg, would you want to log on here and read a bunch of uninformed posts from uninvolved parties about what should be done?
Please let this be the last post on this thread.
Probably no surprise but I couldn't disagree more with Sven's post. When the 5th rated course in the US is in trouble, it is certainly newsworthy and worthy of discussion, as long as that discussion is civil. Most of us learned about it here, following a blog post by one of the members. With the Golf Digest piece, it is also very much in the public domain. Rather than be uniformed, why not inform? It isn't a state secret, and I haven't seen anyone post here hope for a anything but positive outcome for Ballyneal, its members, and terrific staff.
It sounds like things are moving forward and that is a good thing.
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The amount of speculation and misinformation on this thread serves no purpose other than to muddy the waters. As stated before, the folks who really know what is going on with Ballyneal 2.0 are keeping things pretty close to the chest, for good reasons. Its a trickier situation than most realize, and involves more than just figuring out the numbers.
I find this type of talk akin to a neighbor openly discussing how much he'd pay to buy the house out from under the family of four that can't make their mortgage payment because both parents lost their jobs. If it was your club facing a reorg, would you want to log on here and read a bunch of uninformed posts from uninvolved parties about what should be done?
Please let this be the last post on this thread.
I don't know, Sven. The analogy would be apt if the family of four was doing interviews with national media outlets disclosing the amount of their debt and if the children in the family were blogging about the family's financial woes.
If it was meant to be secretive then why would the GM be disclosing figures to Golf Digest?
In any event, I think you are overvaluing GCA.com and the value anyone "close to the situation" would place on the information in this thread. Now, Golf Digest on the other hand, information there might matter, which is why I find it surprising they would disclose so much.
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From Golf Digest article:
Some of that debt consists of loans from founding members, which will in all likelihood be wiped out.
One man's suggestion, I would offer the current members who gave loans to Ballyneal (above their initiation fee) some percentage of equity in the new entity. Karma of the place will be enhanced, imo.
Good luck.
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People still buy boats.
http://www.boatingindustry.com/top-stories/2011/09/27/pontoon-migration-no-end-in-sight/
(http://www.boatingindustry.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/12-Month-Pontoon-Sales.jpg)
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From Golf Digest article:
Some of that debt consists of loans from founding members, which will in all likelihood be wiped out.
One man's suggestion, I would offer the current members who gave loans to Ballyneal (above their initiation fee) some percentage of equity in the new entity. Karma of the place will be enhanced, imo.
Good luck.
Mike:
I certainly agree with your post. However, if the finances don't allow, they should at least create a "founding member" designation that provides these people some benefit.
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The amount of speculation and misinformation on this thread serves no purpose other than to muddy the waters. As stated before, the folks who really know what is going on with Ballyneal 2.0 are keeping things pretty close to the chest, for good reasons. Its a trickier situation than most realize, and involves more than just figuring out the numbers.
I find this type of talk akin to a neighbor openly discussing how much he'd pay to buy the house out from under the family of four that can't make their mortgage payment because both parents lost their jobs. If it was your club facing a reorg, would you want to log on here and read a bunch of uninformed posts from uninvolved parties about what should be done?
Please let this be the last post on this thread.
Probably no surprise but I couldn't disagree more with Sven's post. When the 5th rated course in the US is in trouble, it is certainly newsworthy and worthy of discussion, as long as that discussion is civil. Most of us learned about it here, following a blog post by one of the members. With the Golf Digest piece, it is also very much in the public domain. Rather than be uniformed, why not inform? It isn't a state secret, and I haven't seen anyone post here hope for a anything but positive outcome for Ballyneal, its members, and terrific staff.
It sounds like things are moving forward and that is a good thing.
Chris:
The fact that we made it though 12 pages on this thread before it became public that the note holder is Rupert's brother in law is evidence enough for me that the majority of the posters on this thread did not have enough information to contribute anything but speculation or misinformation. If you read my post #255 from back in November, I tried to make this point the last time we went through this.
There's a human element to this story that was overshadowed by the talk of numbers, hospitality models and travel times to Denver.
I never said this story wasn't newsworthy. I did say that if you knew the facts, what had been written in this thread had little relevance.
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The amount of speculation and misinformation on this thread serves no purpose other than to muddy the waters. As stated before, the folks who really know what is going on with Ballyneal 2.0 are keeping things pretty close to the chest, for good reasons. Its a trickier situation than most realize, and involves more than just figuring out the numbers.
I find this type of talk akin to a neighbor openly discussing how much he'd pay to buy the house out from under the family of four that can't make their mortgage payment because both parents lost their jobs. If it was your club facing a reorg, would you want to log on here and read a bunch of uninformed posts from uninvolved parties about what should be done?
Please let this be the last post on this thread.
I don't know, Sven. The analogy would be apt if the family of four was doing interviews with national media outlets disclosing the amount of their debt and if the children in the family were blogging about the family's financial woes.
If it was meant to be secretive then why would the GM be disclosing figures to Golf Digest?
In any event, I think you are overvaluing GCA.com and the value anyone "close to the situation" would place on the information in this thread. Now, Golf Digest on the other hand, information there might matter, which is why I find it surprising they would disclose so much.
JC-
Funny thing is, I had not yet seen the Golf Digest article when I posted earlier today. Now that the cat's out of the bag and the world knows who holds the note, perhaps we want to explore the intricacies of family and in-law relationships before we speculate on the simple dollar cost of buying out the debt.
Go tell your wife's brother you are taking his dream away, see how he responds. When you get back home, let me know if the locks have been changed.
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Sven,
When JC got married he took a lot of his wife's family's dreams away.
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Sven,
When JC got married he took a lot of his wife's family's dreams away.
Hands down the funniest thing I've ever read on this site. I have tears in my eyes I'm laughing so hard. So pure, I love it.
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Sven,
When JC got married he took a lot of his wife's family's dreams away.
Hands down the funniest thing I've ever read on this site. I have tears in my eyes I'm laughing so hard. So pure, I love it.
I just figured your in-laws were Buckeye M.D.s.
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Sven,
When JC got married he took a lot of his wife's family's dreams away.
Hands down the funniest thing I've ever read on this site. I have tears in my eyes I'm laughing so hard. So pure, I love it.
There have been some really funny posts today. Good because I have a foot of snow outside my window.
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Keith great line. lol
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Sven,
When JC got married he took a lot of his wife's family's dreams away.
Reminds me of a good golf line: The son-in-law shot. You know when you half top a 3 wood and it somehow rolls out 200 yards?
Not what you were hoping for, but you'll live with it...
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Sven,
When JC got married he took a lot of his wife's family's dreams away.
Reminds me of a good golf line: The son-in-law shot. You know when you half top a 3 wood and it somehow rolls out 200 yards?
Not what you were hoping for, but you'll live with it...
Bill, too funny! I don't don't kno if I'm crying because I'm laughing so hard or the fact that I have 2 unwed daughters. :'(
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A couple questions.
1) how much land is part of ballyneal which is not part of the course?
2) what are the zoning options for the area?
From an investment perspective, the property is worth $1 than its next best use. If there is no possible for any development, then the price will probably be 40% on the dollar.
Mark - If you had ever been to Ballyneal you would know that the best use for the land is the world class golf course that sits on it! The only other possible use is as a cattle ranch with a very low carrying capacity.
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A couple questions.
1) how much land is part of ballyneal which is not part of the course?
2) what are the zoning options for the area?
From an investment perspective, the property is worth $1 than its next best use. If there is no possible for any development, then the price will probably be 40% on the dollar.
Michael,
You are missing my point. My comment was strictly around the potential valuation options for the property. With any development, the ultimate value is driven by the next best alternative, whether it be a golf course, a game farm, a farm, airport or housing development.
Mark - If you had ever been to Ballyneal you would know that the best use for the land is the world class golf course that sits on it! The only other possible use is as a cattle ranch with a very low carrying capacity.
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Go tell your wife's brother you are taking his dream away, see how he responds. When you get back home, let me know if the locks have been changed.
Sympathy quickly sides with the debtor these days. How about this angle: Go tell your wife that her brother can't pay you the $1.7 million he borrowed from you (or someone else in case you purchased the note) and see how she responds.
Oops, I forgot that we bankers are the new bad guys (you're welcome, lawyers).
Bogey
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Hendren,
I think the tiff or issue has not been with the lenders who have been responsible throughout and followed the rules....
...its been the ones playing with house money (namely our money, the depositors) and then wanting a bailout cause they blew it all!!
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It has swung though Kalen...now it's any banker that's not handing out money on easy terms to people that look like they probably can't pay it back...there was a funny article somewhere about the lawyer who negotiated the 8.5B deal from BoA. The punch line was out of a greatful dead song...touch of gray.
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The auction took place this morning and was won by John Curlander, and will be open for the upcoming 2012 season, according to;
http://ballynealcaddy.blogspot.com/2012/03/ballyneal-auction-wray-colorado.html
This is great news, and I hope the future is nothing but bright for the golf course and its members.
TK
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The auction took place this morning and was won by John Curlander, and will be open for the upcoming 2012 season, according to;
http://ballynealcaddy.blogspot.com/2012/03/ballyneal-auction-wray-colorado.html
This is great news, and I hope the future is nothing but bright for the golf course and its members.
TK
So the "secured lender" (according to http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/blogs/wheres-matty-g/2012/01/trouble-at-ballyneal-whats-the.html) buys a property out of foreclosure, of which he foreclosed on himself? What am I missing?
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Great news for golf and Ballyneal, although I'm sure a very sad day for Rupert.
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.
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The auction took place this morning and was won by John Curlander, and will be open for the upcoming 2012 season, according to;
http://ballynealcaddy.blogspot.com/2012/03/ballyneal-auction-wray-colorado.html
This is great news, and I hope the future is nothing but bright for the golf course and its members.
TK
So the "secured lender" (according to http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/blogs/wheres-matty-g/2012/01/trouble-at-ballyneal-whats-the.html) buys a property out of foreclosure, of which he foreclosed on himself? What am I missing?
Pat,
Not sure what you were missing...it all went down as planned and as outlined in the article you linked to.
"Curlander's plan is to buy the property out of foreclosure and keep the club running...and will not seek help, guidance or advice fro
Rupert."
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Jim,
For us non-fiance gurus, it would appear he bought the property from himself...which seems odd.
I'm guessing there are legalities and otherwise hoops he had to jump thru to accomplish this, but it would seem the lender just took ownership of the asset and wrote off the loss.....
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Correct. The foreclosure sale is the final step of the legal process by which the secured lender takes ownership of the asset.
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The auction took place this morning and was won by John Curlander, and will be open for the upcoming 2012 season, according to;
http://ballynealcaddy.blogspot.com/2012/03/ballyneal-auction-wray-colorado.html
This is great news, and I hope the future is nothing but bright for the golf course and its members.
TK
So the "secured lender" (according to http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/blogs/wheres-matty-g/2012/01/trouble-at-ballyneal-whats-the.html) buys a property out of foreclosure, of which he foreclosed on himself? What am I missing?
Pat,
Not sure what you were missing...it all went down as planned and as outlined in the article you linked to.
"Curlander's plan is to buy the property out of foreclosure and keep the club running...and will not seek help, guidance or advice fro
Rupert."
Jim,
From the article:
Its sole secured lender, owed $1.7 million, filed for foreclosure in November. The course will go to auction on March 7.
In an interesting twist, that secured lender is Colorado computer executive John C. Curlander, brother-in-law to Rupert O’Neal.
Why would a sole lender have to purchase a property that it already foreclosed on? So John C. lends his brother in law ~$1.7MM, forecloses on the note, then turns up at the court house and purchases the property for $2.xMM? So is he effectively just paying the difference of what is already owed him, and the purchase price?
I'm hardly an expert in foreclosures (thankfully), just trying to understand the transaction.
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Correct. The foreclosure sale is the final step of the legal process by which the secured lender takes ownership of the asset.
But it makes me wonder why it would go to auction then? If he was the secured lender, wouldn't he have rights to it and be able to avoid the dog and pony show of showing up with a check written to himself? Perhaps it was a contractual thing that it must go to auction instead of going into direct receivership of the lender.
Anyway you slice it, feel bad for Rupert, but glad to hear it will remain open....
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He didn't own the property. He owned the secured debt. There's a difference.
Think of this like a corporate bankruptcy. When a company files for bankruptcy, all of the secured and unsecured creditors file and indicate how much they are owed. The court may choose to liquidate the company assets (the auction sale) to raise money to pay off the creditors. The liquidation proceeds are used to pay off certain costs of the bankruptcy process and to pay off the secured creditors. If there's anything left over, then the unsecured creditors may get some money. In this case, with one bidder at the auction, the amount that needed to be bid in order to completely wipe out any existing liens was the amount of the secured debt and the costs.
That's the simple version, things get a bit more complex when there are preference issues, automatic liens, liens on different types of assets, etc.
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Got it, thanks Sven.
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The key to the whole issue is that in Colorado property is held in trust until all of the underlying debt is paid. The mortgage document would have had a power of sale clause that allows the trustee to sell the property at auction (upon meeting all notice requirements) to satisfy any unpaid debt. Its basically a mechanism to clear the title.
Here's a bit more information on foreclosures (very general): http://money.howstuffworks.com/personal-finance/debt-management/foreclosure1.htm
There are two states that provide for strict foreclosure, essentially an automatic transfer to the lender without having to go through the auction process.
Its a timely topic these days.
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I assume this is good news for the staff at Ballyneal. I've only been there once but the place was in great condition and I would think it wise to keep the green's staff in place.
Wonder what this means for the 2nd course?
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Sven,
Thanks for the clarification, that makes a lot more sense now. I always figured, the person who owns the debt is the "real" owner... ;)
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It was pretty neat to see pictures, via Dave Hensley on twitter, of the irrigation systems getting primed this past week. I assumed from some of this that everything would work out, but I guess in situations like this you never know.
Just happy that no one will have to watch yucca take over the fairways and greens anytime soon.
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Between this and the Olympics news, this has got to be the biggest news day in the past few years of GCA...
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The secured lender always gets the option to credit bid the amount of the outstanding indebtedness, plus fees, costs, etc, at the sale. They get this right because technically, they've already spent it. Often times, when there is an arranged buyer, the secured lender will underbid to the appraised value (assuming the appraised value is less than the indebetedness) and allow the arranged buyer to purchase at sale (helps with tax issues)....and if there's a guarantor or note holder with money, the lender will then look to the borrower under the note or guarantor and attempt to collect the difference....plus fees, costs and interest of course.
Hopefully this is all good for Ballyneal.
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Between this and the Olympics news, this has got to be the biggest news day in the past few years of GCA...
Jud,
I highly doubt it.
Speaking of all of this information going around, I wish someone would show the place some respect and not talk about all the financials here on the internet.
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Respect begin and ends in the public records unfortunately.
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Between this and the Olympics news, this has got to be the biggest news day in the past few years of GCA...
Jud,
I highly doubt it.
Speaking of all of this information going around, I wish someone would show the place some respect and not talk about all the financials here on the internet.
JC-
If you're going to try to turn the tables, at least get the original statement correct. I haven't seen anything resembling speculation or inaccuracy in what has been discussed today.
Sven
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JC,
I've never got why its disrespectful to talk about publicly disclosed transactions and events with their corresponding figures. If its private and speculative, I get that....
Am I disrespecting Taco Bell if I announce that I only paid $1.63 for a Burrito Supreme because I have a 50 Cent off coupon? Are they now pissed because the "secret is out" to their other millions of customers?
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Don't really know if it means anything other than all the people who put money into Ballyneal just were wiped out except Curlander/Oneal family. It doesn't quite............
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I certainly hope this works out well for the club, its members and staff. I am sorry for Rupert and his family if I am reading all of this correctly. The Neal's put their heart and soul as well as their land into the project.
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I certainly hope this works out well for the club, its members and staff. I am sorry for Rupert and his family if I am reading all of this correctly. The Neal's put their heart and soul as well as their land into the project.
I am sorry for the people that invested in it, they lost investments. O'Neal's still own it.
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Between this and the Olympics news, this has got to be the biggest news day in the past few years of GCA...
Jud,
I highly doubt it.
Speaking of all of this information going around, I wish someone would show the place some respect and not talk about all the financials here on the internet.
JC-
If you're going to try to turn the tables, at least get the original statement correct. I haven't seen anything resembling speculation or inaccuracy in what has been discussed today.
Sven
Sven,
If you're going to call me out, at least get the original statement correct. Ben Sims's admonishment on the first page had nothing to do with speculation.
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Aside from the sordid financial details, the real news is that the guys like Jim who truly love the place will be able to tee it up again come summer. That, JC, is the headline to me.
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Between this and the Olympics news, this has got to be the biggest news day in the past few years of GCA...
Jud,
I highly doubt it.
Speaking of all of this information going around, I wish someone would show the place some respect and not talk about all the financials here on the internet.
JC-
If you're going to try to turn the tables, at least get the original statement correct. I haven't seen anything resembling speculation or inaccuracy in what has been discussed today.
Sven
Sven,
If you're going to call me out, at least get the original statement correct. Ben Sims's admonishment on the first page had nothing to do with speculation.
His may not of, but mine did.
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Aside from the sordid financial details, the real news is that the guys like Jim who truly love the place will be able to tee it up again come summer. That, JC, is the headline to me.
Jud,
This is a headline: http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/7657131/michigan-wolverines-players-tweets-violated-ncaa-rule
:P ;D
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Between this and the Olympics news, this has got to be the biggest news day in the past few years of GCA...
Jud,
I highly doubt it.
Speaking of all of this information going around, I wish someone would show the place some respect and not talk about all the financials here on the internet.
JC-
If you're going to try to turn the tables, at least get the original statement correct. I haven't seen anything resembling speculation or inaccuracy in what has been discussed today.
Sven
Sven,
If you're going to call me out, at least get the original statement correct. Ben Sims's admonishment on the first page had nothing to do with speculation.
His may not of, but mine did.
I don't know what yours said, I'm referring to the initial admonishment by Ben that we shouldn't talk about the place because it might hurt people's feelings. There was no qualification when there should have been. I agree with you on speculation, but don't agree with Ben on a general gag order.
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I assume this is good news for the staff at Ballyneal. I've only been there once but the place was in great condition and I would think it wise to keep the green's staff in place.
Wonder what this means for the 2nd course?
What second course?............No money .
Chef works inTenn at CC of Tenn, I believe. Some others were let go. Matt Payne GM and Dave Hensley (greens super) are still there. Gina and JP, I believe are still there. Nic Flan, (awesome guy) will take over as caddy master it is rumored.
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Aside from the sordid financial details, the real news is that the guys like Jim who truly love the place will be able to tee it up again come summer. That, JC, is the headline to me.
I hear it was mid 70s there today. I knew I should've gone to the auction. Could've gotten one more round in as a member of Ballyneal LLC to lower that ultimate cost per round from astronomical to just plain absurd.
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Aside from the sordid financial details, the real news is that the guys like Jim who truly love the place will be able to tee it up again come summer. That, JC, is the headline to me.
Jud,
This is a headline: http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/7657131/michigan-wolverines-players-tweets-violated-ncaa-rule
:P ;D
Right now all I care about is the prices in my NCAA draft next Monday...And you're on like Donkey Kong for Grudge Match II; this time I may have to give you strokes...
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Aside from the sordid financial details, the real news is that the guys like Jim who truly love the place will be able to tee it up again come summer. That, JC, is the headline to me.
Jud,
This is a headline: http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/7657131/michigan-wolverines-players-tweets-violated-ncaa-rule
:P ;D
Right now all I care about is the prices in my NCAA draft next Monday...And you're on like Donkey Kong for Grudge Match II; this time I may have to give you strokes...
After the brackets come out there will be a wager on which team goes deeper in the tourney.
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It remains to be seen if this is great news or not.
As Brad Isaacs says, the bankruptcy has wiped out the unsecured creditors -- in layman's terms, the group of very supportive members who put in money over the past 5 years to keep the place afloat. Many of them feel that they've been taken advantage of, and have vowed not to return. That's not a great start for Ballyneal 2.0.
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Damn, I hate sad stories. But often what seems to be the absolutely worst event in one's life turns out to be a blessing in the long term.
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What Tom said.........
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Brad How do they still own the land? Unless it was on a long term lease to the entity that owned the course. I mean who would loan money to a golf course that does not own the dirt or have the same effect by the length of the lease. Of course by that I mean a large amount of money to fund construction etc. I am not talking about the members who helped by loaning money to keep things moving along with hopes things would get better.
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I have no inside knowledge about Ballyneal or any course outside of mine for that matter, but if one is expecting some type of return out of a golf membership, they are barking up the wrong tree. Jim flippantly discusses his round cost averaging....and I don't care where you are, it doesn't make financial sense. Not even close.
Like restaurants, I wouldn't put one penny into a golf course membership that I ever hoped to see again. That said, I will put many more dollars into golf course memberships in my future. It's just a loss that I don't mind taking. But it aint no investment...at any membership level.
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Tiger.....I don' t know if I quite understand what you are making exact reference too? Help. Give me a ring....
Brad
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Like restaurants, I wouldn't put one penny into a golf course membership that I ever hoped to see again. That said, I will put many more dollars into golf course memberships in my future. It's just a loss that I don't mind taking. But it aint no investment...at any membership level.
Where the hell were you 5 years ago before I wrote that check? ;)
PS. Not to Ballyneal....
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...
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Seems to me somebody might be in the owners ear with some very poor advice. How can he turn his back on the members? How can he expect to drum up more members at a national club in these economic and now golf saturated times? Just in that area alone the new Dismal and the Prairie Club were going to take a bite.
I also agree that for the owner to buy his note and take creditors out and sell it would be one thing - him running it after wiping out the debt smells really bad to me, too. Maybe karma says there's another owner in a season or two.
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The last thing I'm trying to do is to stir up trouble here. I think I want to see the golf club succeed as much as anyone does. It's one of my best courses and I want to see it thrive. And, no one appreciates the job Dave Hensley has done there more than I do. But much of the info posted here and elsewhere has been incomplete [at best], and now that my duty to my former client has passed through the bankruptcy, I wanted to make sure what's being said is on the level.
Mr. Curlander has some major issues to address. I'd be happy to help him, if I can, but my sense is that many of the former members are not going to support his efforts ... and as Matt says, it will be hard to replace them in the present economic environment.
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I have a story which is a poor analogy for this. LSU went through a period in the 1990's where we hired a few really unqualified coaches in a row. I was having dinner with our athletic director. He was complaining about the $50,000 to $100,000 a game he was losing in concession sales. I laughed and told him he was forgetting about his customer and they are not his to abuse for life with a bad product. I said you are taking for granted that having 100% season tickets sales is not common in college sports. It took years to build up that up and make 100% sell outs a part of our lives. I laughed and told him there are many great things to do in September October and November other than watch a suck program and bitch about it with friends. I mentioned a few options which costs less and are great fun. I think when a business has a bad business plan in the case at hand, they need to fix it. I do not see how making any significant percentage of the membership mad or feel slighted or worse help a club that needs increased cash flow bad. I hope this is not the case, but if it is, these members may well find there are plenty or great places to spend their time in the summer months playing great golf at a place they feel loved and is not filled with bad memories. Again I hope this is not the case and the members are happy going forward. The club needs all of them and more, not less.
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I have a story which is a poor analogy for this. LSU went through a period in the 1990's where we hired a few really unqualified coaches in a row. I was having dinner with our athletic director. He was complaining about the $50,000 to $100,000 a game he was losing in concession sales. I laughed and told him he was forgetting about his customer and they are not his to abuse for life with a bad product. I said you are taking for granted that having 100% season tickets sales is not common in college sports. It took years to build up that up and make 100% sell outs a part of our lives. I laughed and told him there are many great things to do in September October and November other than watch a suck program and bitch about it with friends. I mentioned a few options which costs less and are great fun. I think when a business has a bad business plan in the case at hand, they need to fix it. I do not see how making any significant percentage of the membership mad or feel slighted or worse help a club that needs increased cash flow bad. I hope this is not the case, but if it is, these members may well find there are plenty or great places to spend their time in the summer months playing great golf at a place they feel loved and is not filled with bad memories. Again I hope this is not the case and the members are happy going forward. The club needs all of them and more, not less.
You people will never get over Curley and Gerry.
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Ballyneal is an amazing golf course. It needs love and care right now. And people with some money that love golf. :)
Are there folks that got screwed in this deal? No doubt. And it is a very bad thing that people lost money because of golf. But the future of a great golf course and great guys like Dave Hensley and Matt Payne hang on positive thinking, entrepreneurial thought, and people that care about something special. And that is as far as this conversation needs to go.
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Sam The one is Curley Hallman. I will never ever get over hiring that aggie. I will tell you a story next time we play. When he was the coach at LSU, my secretary had been the Adm Ass to the Pres of Southern Miss when he was there. They were trying to get rid of him and we took him off their hands. Brett Favre made him look like he could coach. The stories are the BS he pulled while at Southern Miss and LSU.
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You still may need a place to sleep and eat.
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Sam The one is Curley Hallman. I will never ever get over hiring that aggie. I will tell you a story next time we play. When he was the coach at LSU, my secretary had been the Adm Ass to the Pres of Southern Miss when he was there. They were trying to get rid of him and we took him off their hands. Brett Favre made him look like he could coach. The stories are the BS he pulled while at Southern Miss and LSU.
This could be a great thread on tigerdroppings.
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It remains to be seen if this is great news or not.
I'm confused a bit, the secured note holder has eliminated the debt that was on the club. He has now, in theory, made it much more economical to run (i.e. no principle and/or interest payments to make out of the cash flow).
The previous equity partners were NOT going to get their money back, that point is proven by the fact that there was no one else on the court house steps to bid on the foreclosure. (Let's not forget that there is always a level of risk in any investment, many people like to blame someone else when an investment goes bad but somewhere down the road, one of the assumptions in the financial model failed, and when that happens, it usually does not turn out well).
Therefore, the stated desire of Mr. Curlander, to open the club, etc. is a positive sign. Whether it turns out positive or not depends on the revenue model he designs and the number of golfers he attracts to the club.
On the other hand, the news could have been a lot worse, a rancher could have won the foreclosure bid and 500 head of cattle could be roaming the fairways come summer.
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No question about it, Dave Hensley has done amazing things for that Golf course out in the Chop Hills.
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It remains to be seen if this is great news or not.
I'm confused a bit, the secured note holder has eliminated the debt that was on the club. He has now, in theory, made it much more economical to run (i.e. no principle and/or interest payments to make out of the cash flow).
The previous equity partners were NOT going to get their money back, that point is proven by the fact that there was no one else on the court house steps to bid on the foreclosure. (Let's not forget that there is always a level of risk in any investment, many people like to blame someone else when an investment goes bad but somewhere down the road, one of the assumptions in the financial model failed, and when that happens, it usually does not turn out well).
Therefore, the stated desire of Mr. Curlander, to open the club, etc. is a positive sign. Whether it turns out positive or not depends on the revenue model he designs and the number of golfers he attracts to the club.
On the other hand, the news could have been a lot worse, a rancher could have won the foreclosure bid and 500 head of cattle could be roaming the fairways come summer.
Mike
This is my take. Well said. If folks haven't realized it by now, building courses in the sticks is a high risk proposition no matter how good the product is. That said, it surprises me a bit that members would not choose to wait and see what comes out of the wash. Presumably the new owner knows his position as well as anybody and will be looking for ways to retain members.
Ciao
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This is my take. Well said. If folks haven't realized it by now, building courses in the sticks is a high risk proposition no matter how good the product is. That said, it surprises me a bit that members would not choose to wait and see what comes out of the wash. Presumably the new owner knows his position as well as anybody and will be looking for ways to retain members.
Ciao
Sean,
I went through this once at Long Island National roughly 10 years ago when it tried to go private. They tried to jam through a membership without talking to their existing "founding players". We bought the right as a group to weekend tee times before the course even opened and we considered the place our "home club". The management group then forced a silly membership on the "founding players" without talking to us and it never took. Public course still today at way cheaper rates than what we paid ten years ago.
He had 3 months to speak to the membership at Ballyneal and clearly no rancher was going to pay up for land, so he was the only possible bidder in this family feud that the members got stuck in between. Not one member in support here so far and none at the courthouse from what we can see. Doak is obviously on the outside too, and while he has not stated or complained about it, I will assume he just got wiped out as a creditor.
Sorry, this has all the signs of a family feud gone bad and they forgot the members and the architect. I have never been there, and I am just stating what seems obvious to me.
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No question about it, Dave Hensley has done amazing things for that Golf course out in the Chop Hills.
Wow. The tension is palpable when you won't refer to the course by name.
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Question for anyone with knowledge of how foreclosures work in Colorado. It seems that the note holder bought the property here for more than the total debt. I.e 1.7 million was owed and it went for 2. If he was the only bidder, why would he have bid so high? Could he have bid 1 dollar and held the debtor liable for the deficiency? If he could have, and decided not to, this could add to the feeling of "inside politics" among the members. I think everyone understands that an nvestment can go badly, but people don't want to feel like it was insider trading.
Of course if the local laws dictate the minimum bid at foreclosure, this is meaningless.
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so the people who were members before the foreclosure are no longer members???? they would have to reapply and pay another initiation fee????
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so the people who were members before the foreclosure are no longer members???? they would have to reapply and pay another initiation fee????
No, that would be outrageous.
Though the new initiation fees are only 1/5 of the old.
The bottom line is that while most if not all of the existing members (regardless of how much money they lost) would have preferred a member owned club, Curlander was never offered enough a figure that he felt like selling the club for.
Ultimately he is the one that lost the most money so it's his call. His plan is to keep the club the same as it has always been.
There is a lot of skepticism amongst the current membership and as Tom said a lot of the original founding members who supported the club financially over the years have stated that they will not be continuing as members of Ballyneal 2.0
Time will tell........
Brian
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"There is a lot of skepticism amongst the current membership and as Tom said a lot of the original founding members who supported the club financially over the years have stated that they will not be continuing as members of Ballyneal 2.0"
If the a good portion of those that supported it over the years are not going to continue and they didn't have enough members to support it in the first place, I don't see how it's going to last going forward. ???
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Craig,
Thats obviously a good point.
The plan of the new owner is that with the new initiation fees they will get enough new members over the next few years to make things work.
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I know nothing of the BN situation but I have seen enough club foreclosures lately and the basics are whoever bought it can do whatever he wishes. He can plant corn if that is what he wanted. BUT these guys aren't stupid. You have one of two situations. 1. As the noteholder you know there are no other bidders so you bid the note in at your price instead of allowing someone to take it at a much lower price on the courthouse steps.
2. Then once it has been thru the foreclosure you have a clean slate and you can either operate it or sell it and take a partial loss on your terms rather than the foreclosure terms. (This is what the banks usually do)
Even if the guy that had the note knows nothing of golf he has let it be known he intends to go forward or he would have already dismissed the staff. He's probably smart enough to know he will need TD around. My bet would be "give the guy a chance and he might turn it all around"...it's his sandbox. And I'm sure he wants most fo the past guys playing it. ;) JMO
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Just what do you people mean when you talk about "members who supported the club financially"? To me it sounds like some guys who for some reason loaned the club a little bit of money, but not enough to make a difference. Curlander, on the other hand, loaned the club a ton of money, enough to keep it out of foreclosure by a bank (and probably resolve some 941 tax delinquencies and unpaid property taxes). He was smart and took an assignment of the debt he bailed. Now he's in charge. The members who wouldn't step up to the plate with the real money it took to fix the problem will go unpaid because they made a bad loan.
The membership could have bought this club for 2M, but wouldn't. They should be grateful if they don't get kicked out.
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The membership could have bought this club for 2M, but wouldn't. They should be grateful if they don't get kicked out.
John,
You are simply wrong.
The membership did approach the current owner as early as last May.
When you say "They should be grateful if they don't get kicked out", that just seems silly. This is not Pine Valley or Shinnecock in the middle of 20 million people living within two hours.
As others have said, let's see what he does now, but if you need a lawyer to join a golf club in the Sand Hills, I will stick with Wild Horse. Golf Clubs are supposed to be clubs.
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John,
You are simply wrong.
The membership did approach the current owner as early as last May.
Did they approach him with $2,542,071.87? less non-incurred cost/interest?
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John,
You are simply wrong.
The membership did approach the current owner as early as last May.
Did they approach him with $2,542,071.87? less non-incurred cost/interest?
Without really knowing, of course not.
Who in the world would throw away $2.5 million and buy land/golf course on a property in the middle of nowhere that has been owned by the family for generations and clearly the bankruptcy is not really going to remove the family from this. They live there, it is their town and the people that work there are clearly loyal to the family.
I restate my position, this is a family feud that screwed the members. I am so happy to learn that the farm hands of Eastern Colorado have used the US legal system to wipe every penny that was placed into the club by outsiders. Perhaps developer Donald Trump of Palm Beach and NYC will feature one of the Eastern Coloradan developers on one of his TV shows. Congratulations to the new owner!
The old members wanted to be partners, not adversarial.
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The old members wanted to be partners, not adversarial.
Well, they don't get to be partners. But I am guessing they will get to keep their membership, so that aint a bad deal.
What would the members have gotten if the Bank of Colorado, the IRS, and the CO Dept of Labor had pursued their legal remedies?
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Who in the world would throw away $2.5 million and buy land/golf course on a property in the middle of nowhere that has been owned by the family for generations and clearly the bankruptcy is not really going to remove the family from this. They live there, it is their town and the people that work there are clearly loyal to the family.
[/quote]
Is it really true that this land had been owned by the family for generations?
Bart
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No, not true.
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I remember working on a project with similar issues. We spent months working with the exiting staff, formulating & revising our bid, multiple conversation swith the Trustee in charge of the sale and submitting a bid which worked financially for all, including the exisiting memebrs (some wanted to stay, some leave).
In the end we were outbid by about $1.5 million by a single guy who wanted to keep the club operating the way it was. He has the deep pockets to do this. Club still exists and he still owns the place....many on here would know the facility.
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"members who supported the club financially"? To me it sounds like some guys who for some reason loaned the club a little bit of money, but not enough to make a difference.
Do you have any idea how broad the statement in quotes could possibly be? And then you actually draw a conclusion from it? On top of that, you're conclusion is wrong.
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so the people who were members before the foreclosure are no longer members???? they would have to reapply and pay another initiation fee????
No, that would be outrageous.
Though the new initiation fees are only 1/5 of the old.
The bottom line is that while most if not all of the existing members (regardless of how much money they lost) would have preferred a member owned club, Curlander was never offered enough a figure that he felt like selling the club for.
Ultimately he is the one that lost the most money so it's his call. His plan is to keep the club the same as it has always been.
There is a lot of skepticism amongst the current membership and as Tom said a lot of the original founding members who supported the club financially over the years have stated that they will not be continuing as members of Ballyneal 2.0
Time will tell........
Brian
thanks Brian...I obviously know nothing about this type of thing, but if i was an original member and the new owner wnated me to pay another initiation fee...well, that doesnt seem fair at all, to say the least
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"members who supported the club financially"? To me it sounds like some guys who for some reason loaned the club a little bit of money, but not enough to make a difference.
Do you have any idea how broad the statement in quotes could possibly be? And then you actually draw a conclusion from it? On top of that, you're conclusion is wrong.
Yes, I realize how broad it is. I asked what was meant by it. Care to explain?
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Who in the world would throw away $2.5 million and buy land/golf course on a property in the middle of nowhere that has been owned by the family for generations and clearly the bankruptcy is not really going to remove the family from this. They live there, it is their town and the people that work there are clearly loyal to the family.
Is it really true that this land had been owned by the family for generations?
Bart
[/quote]
From The Denver Post and the Ballyneal website:
"wrestled at the University of Northern Colorado before returning from college to run a 3,000- acre farm that has been in the family for 98 years. Looking for additional ways to make money, he started an upland game-bird hunting club."
www.ballyneal.com/app/webroot/pdf/BN_denverpost_7.23.09.pdf
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Mike:
Is that where the golf course is?
Bart
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From the Feature Interview with Jim O'Neal (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/feature-interview/jim-oneal-july-2006/) on this site:
2. When did your brother Rupert and you first see the property that Ballyneal now occupies?
I probably saw the land when I was four or five years old. Our family would drive from Holyoke to the neighboring town of Wray to go fishing, and we would see the “Chop Hills,” as they are known in the area. The area was known as land for grazing cattle and for having a place we called “Old Baldy,” which was a big blowout where we would go on a Sunday afternoon for a picnic. It was like going to a sandy beach without the water. A little different, but fun as a kid.
When I was in high school in the early 80′s, I was getting more and more into golf, so the thoughts of the sand hills as a golf course became stronger. I didn’t have a clue how it would come about, but I stopped a few times on the county line and would walk into the pasture looking for holes. I would watch the British Open (what I used to call it) now the Open Championship, and then wander out in the pasture to find holes that looked like those on TV.
Rupert and I really saw the land up close and personal with the thought of building a course in the fall of 2001. The owners of the land, the Brinkema’s, were nice enough to allow us to drive four-wheeled ATV’s on the land to get a good look one evening.
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Question for anyone with knowledge of how foreclosures work in Colorado. It seems that the note holder bought the property here for more than the total debt. I.e 1.7 million was owed and it went for 2. If he was the only bidder, why would he have bid so high? Could he have bid 1 dollar and held the debtor liable for the deficiency? If he could have, and decided not to, this could add to the feeling of "inside politics" among the members. I think everyone understands that an nvestment can go badly, but people don't want to feel like it was insider trading.
Of course if the local laws dictate the minimum bid at foreclosure, this is meaningless.
Keith:
Take another look at the amounts. $1.7m in principal, plus $793k in unpaid interest. The rest represents the basic costs for going through a foreclosure.
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From the Feature Interview with Jim O'Neal (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/feature-interview/jim-oneal-july-2006/) on this site:
2. When did your brother Rupert and you first see the property that Ballyneal now occupies?
I probably saw the land when I was four or five years old. Our family would drive from Holyoke to the neighboring town of Wray to go fishing, and we would see the “Chop Hills,” as they are known in the area. The area was known as land for grazing cattle and for having a place we called “Old Baldy,” which was a big blowout where we would go on a Sunday afternoon for a picnic. It was like going to a sandy beach without the water. A little different, but fun as a kid.
When I was in high school in the early 80′s, I was getting more and more into golf, so the thoughts of the sand hills as a golf course became stronger. I didn’t have a clue how it would come about, but I stopped a few times on the county line and would walk into the pasture looking for holes. I would watch the British Open (what I used to call it) now the Open Championship, and then wander out in the pasture to find holes that looked like those on TV.
Rupert and I really saw the land up close and personal with the thought of building a course in the fall of 2001. The owners of the land, the Brinkema’s, were nice enough to allow us to drive four-wheeled ATV’s on the land to get a good look one evening.
Thanks George...so Mike, not family land. Land bought to develop a golf course. Does this change your opinion?
Bart
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Thanks Sven,
I guess my question really was, why would the only bidder bid so close to the debt amount?
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Thanks Sven,
I guess my question really was, why would the only bidder bid so close to the debt amount?
Think of this in terms of clearing title. In order to do so, the existing debt has to be wiped out, including any costs incidental to the foreclosure process. Normally, the first bid in any auction process is made by the existing lien holder for the exact amount that is needed to do so. (Sometimes, the first bid is set at an amount equal to the appraised value of the property.) If anyone wants to bid over that amount, they are free to do so. Going forward, the new owner (the old lien-holder) holds the property free and clear of any attachments, and can claim clean title if they are looking to sell it to a third party.
These situations get interesting when the amount of debt remaining unpaid is very low as compared to the value of the property. Or if it is a property that the bank/lien holder does not necessarily want to own. There's a gigantic business out there right now for REO (Real Estate Owned) properties. With the number of foreclosures that have taken place over the last few years, the service industry for maintaining/protecting REO properties has boomed.
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Throughout all this, looking at photos, reading the descriptions, I still have a hard time remembering the 12th hole ...
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Mike:
I have a different memory process when it comes to Ballyneal. It seems like every time I play it I pick up something new on just about every hole. For that reason, I have multiple memorable yet almost distinct images of each hole out there, including 12. I attribute this to the scale of the course, the varied possible pin placements and the way the wind can have a huge impact on how a hole is played.
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Sven,
That is correct, and normally where a bank is the lender, they will set an upset price that represents the amount below the debt they are willing to sell the property for. The banks can do this because thy have a limited interest in becoming realtors. If you owned the property yourself, and you intended on taking possession, i.e. you wanted it back, and you were the only bidder, what is the need to bid so close to the value?
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Sven,
That is correct, and normally where a bank is the lender, they will set an upset price that represents the amount below the debt they are willing to sell the property for. The banks can do this because thy have a limited interest in becoming realtors. If you owned the property yourself, and you intended on taking possession, i.e. you wanted it back, and you were the only bidder, what is the need to bid so close to the value?
As a secured creditor, isn't offering the full amount of the debt the same thing as offering $1, if you want the property? In my jurisdiction, the lender doesn't put in a bid, but seeks an "order absolute", vesting title to them, in the event that there are no satisfactory bidders.
I do some foreclosure work, but for most lenders, private or institutional, owning the property is the last thing they want.
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Will, the difference would be whether or not the debtor is liable for the deficiency.
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Sven,
That is correct, and normally where a bank is the lender, they will set an upset price that represents the amount below the debt they are willing to sell the property for. The banks can do this because thy have a limited interest in becoming realtors. If you owned the property yourself, and you intended on taking possession, i.e. you wanted it back, and you were the only bidder, what is the need to bid so close to the value?
Keith - from what I understand there was no bank involved. The gentleman who ended up "buying" the property was the main lender on the project. He bid the minimum amount he could to get the property free and clear of any liens, including his own. A big portion of that balance he essentially paid to himself. Had someone come in and bid more than him, the vast majority of the proceeds would have gone to him to pay back the principal and interest he was owed by the club.
He didn't write a check to the county for $2.5MM to get control of the property. It's more semantics than anything.
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Will, the difference would be whether or not the debtor is liable for the deficiency.
I see. I am quite sure that in BC, when someone takes title, they forego any shortfall. They can only pursue a shortfall if a third party buys. Perhaps it is the same in Colorado, but I am speculating here.
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Keith:
My guess is the price bid was the price necessary to remove the property from the deed of trust it was being held under until all of the existing debt was paid. Clear title is worth a lot in the RE world.
What is interesting to me is that the original note was quoted as being $4mil, yet the auction value was significantly lower. At some point folks (Rupert, the original lender, etc.) thought the property had a value equal to or more than the amount of the original loan. Even with the improvements that have taken place, no one was willing to make a bid for an amount over the existing debt level. It seems like the fair market value of BN, like a lot of other development properties (not necessarily implying housing) around the country, took a severe hit over the last couple of years.
I know just enough of the story to surmise that this story might have had a different ending if someone else was driving the model. But then again, we wouldn't even be discussing Ballyneal at all if Jim and Rupert hadn't undertaken this project.
We can take this discussion down a series of roads, such as:
1. Timing is everything;
2. What models work;
3. Why the best land for golf may not always be in the best spot to start a golf club; and
4. Without deep pockets its a crapshoot.
There are a bunch of valid lessons to learn from what has happened at Ballyneal. The real lesson to me is that golf club ownership is a business. No matter how wonderful the dream, it needs to make sense from a dollars perspective. You can build a world class course, hire top notch folks to run the place and recruit a group of members that are second to none and willing to invest their own golf $$ into the place, but there's no guarantee things will work out.
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George:
It was my understanding that Curlander bought the note from the original bank lender, but I may be wrong on that.
Sven
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Throughout all this, looking at photos, reading the descriptions, I still have a hard time remembering the 12th hole ...
Hole twelve is a relatively short par 4 that tempts the long hitter to try and drive it with a green comprised of three bowls that challenges you to two put if your not in the correct bowel. This is definitely a hole that grows on you. I didn't use to like the green but I find it more brilliant as time goes on. A lot of ways to turn this hole into a big number and I think I have done most of them. I love this hole. Precision counts tremendously!
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At my job, we are often looking at making product investments multiple times.
At every time, we do, we ask one simple questions, "what's changed?" Too often, people want to arrive at a different decision when none of the key facts have changed.
In the case of Ballyneal, here is what has changed
- A high profile bankruptcy
- alienation of some key members
here is what hasn't changed
- location
- amount of overnight lodging
- the fundamental business model
While I would love to see the club succeed, I am not sure how this happens. If anything, prospective members will be less willing to plop down mid five figures to join given the recent bankruptcy.
Unless the new owner is willing to run the club at a loss, or create some new revenue stream which hasnt been discussed here. I am not sure how the long-term business proposition changes.
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Courtesy of Larry Lambrecht, www.golfstock.net
(http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd44/johnmkirk/Ballyneal_12BGN.jpg)
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At my job, we are often looking at making product investments multiple times.
At every time, we do, we ask one simple questions, "what's changed?" Too often, people want to arrive at a different decision when none of the key facts have changed.
In the case of Ballyneal, here is what has changed
- A high profile bankruptcy
- alienation of some key members
here is what hasn't changed
- location
- amount of overnight lodging
- the fundamental business model
While I would love to see the club succeed, I am not sure how this happens. If anything, prospective members will be less willing to plop down mid five figures to join given the recent bankruptcy.
Unless the new owner is willing to run the club at a loss, or create some new revenue stream which hasnt been discussed here. I am not sure how the long-term business proposition changes.
Nobody is going to put down mid 5 figures. The question is whether they will put down $10,000
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At my job, we are often looking at making product investments multiple times.
At every time, we do, we ask one simple questions, "what's changed?" Too often, people want to arrive at a different decision when none of the key facts have changed.
In the case of Ballyneal, here is what has changed
- A high profile bankruptcy
- alienation of some key members
here is what hasn't changed
- location
- amount of overnight lodging
- the fundamental business model
While I would love to see the club succeed, I am not sure how this happens. If anything, prospective members will be less willing to plop down mid five figures to join given the recent bankruptcy.
Unless the new owner is willing to run the club at a loss, or create some new revenue stream which hasnt been discussed here. I am not sure how the long-term business proposition changes.
Mark:
The big change is that the new owner does not have any debt service, disregarding any working capital lines that may be arranged. That greatly reduces the amount of income that is needed to keep the place afloat.
There's the possibility that Curlander will be looking to recoup some of his "investment." But without the pressure of a payment schedule, the club should have a much easier time operating on the positive side of the ledger, in theory.
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In the case of Ballyneal, here is what has changed
- A high profile bankruptcy
- alienation of some key members
here is what hasn't changed
- location
- amount of overnight lodging
- the fundamental business model
While I would love to see the club succeed, I am not sure how this happens. If anything, prospective members will be less willing to plop down mid five figures to join given the recent bankruptcy.
Unless the new owner is willing to run the club at a loss, or create some new revenue stream which hasnt been discussed here. I am not sure how the long-term business proposition changes.
Mark,
The main thing that needed to change was that the initiation and dues were apparently not in line with other very good to great destination clubs post-boom. The assumption is that writing off this debt frees them up to adjust to where the market is now.
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If I was the new owner I would want the old members if there was plenty of space. I would probably offer them a deal, lets say they paid 50,000 originally and my new scheme for initiation was 10,000. I think I'd let the originals in zero and just pay their dues. If I thought I could fill every space with new players I would be very greedy but keeping the originals that stumped up 50K are better kept sweet, they are likely to be a great advertising tool for the new scheme with a lighter price and maybe they know someone that can afford the low rate but could not afford the origonal rate. The new model should allow open play at a reasonable rate.
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If I was the new owner I would want the old members if there was plenty of space. I would probably offer them a deal, lets say they paid 50,000 originally and my new scheme for initiation was 10,000. I think I'd let the originals in zero and just pay their dues. If I thought I could fill every space with new players I would be very greedy but keeping the originals that stumped up 50K are better kept sweet, they are likely to be a great advertising tool for the new scheme with a lighter price and maybe they know someone that can afford the low rate but could not afford the origonal rate. The new model should allow open play at a reasonable rate.
Sounds like a fair deal for everyone...
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Ross,
Why would anyone pay 10K plus whatever in dues if it's open for a "reasonable rate"? Even if $250 is reasonable...
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Mark Johnson,
Are you 100% sure about this point:
here is what hasn't changed
- amount of overnight lodging
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Mark Johnson,
Are you 100% sure about this point:
here is what hasn't changed
- amount of overnight lodging
I hope it has. If so, then it changes the economics of the club significantly.
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Ross,
Why would anyone pay 10K plus whatever in dues if it's open for a "reasonable rate"? Even if $250 is reasonable...
This is what I always wondered about the Prairie Club -- does it make sense to join when I can play it as a resort guest? I suppose if you live close enough to play a lot then it does, but not for 2-4 trips a year.
Of course, there's the non-monetary benefit of belonging to a club, which does have some value.
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Sorry, I can't hold back any longer. :(
Only a handful that have posted on this thread have a clue as to what has really happened in this situation. Your speculation is pointless unless you have all the facts. That said, I won't be the one to enlighten everyone as to the exact details in this case. It would not be proper to air them in a public forum and definitely not in the spirit of what Ran had in mind with this discussion group.
Now if you want to talk about the 12th hole, I am down with that. ;D
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Again, I know nothing of BN but if I was the owner I would say "screw the membership route" and follow the Bandon model. ;)
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Again, I know nothing of BN but if I was the owner I would say "screw the membership route" and follow the Bandon model. ;)
Certainly part of this statement is correct. Perhaps more parts than one. :)
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In the case of Ballyneal, here is what has changed
- A high profile bankruptcy
There was no bankruptcy.
Perhaps if there had been, some of the "members who supported the club financially" would have gotten something; although it's doubtful
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Again, I know nothing of BN but if I was the owner I would say "screw the membership route" and follow the Bandon model. ;)
Certainly part of this statement is correct. Perhaps more parts than one. :)
No doubt, this is partially a very true statement! As has been mentioned before most of you have no idea what you are talking about and most of the members are not willing to bring out the dirty laundry. This is neither the time or place.
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Michael - your point is well taken. Thanks.
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I would wager that most who think they know what's going on don't
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In the case of Ballyneal, here is what has changed
- A high profile bankruptcy
There was no bankruptcy.
Perhaps if there had been, some of the "members who supported the club financially" would have gotten something; although it's doubtful
In bankruptcy the members who certainly would be classified as unsecured creditors would have received nothing.
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It would not be proper to air them in a public forum and definitely not in the spirit of what Ran had in mind with this discussion group.
Daryl,
Please see the following:
1. Lido Golf Club - now a row of condominiums in Long Beach, NY.
2. Timber Point - now 27 holes on top of the original 18 on the south shore of Long Island.
3. Hollywood GC - still a great course but please see the aerial in the Men's Grill of what was there.
4. Lekarica - Stiles and Van Kleek that is now a $25 public course.
5. Yale Golf Course - Which has been rescued.
Filled in bunkers, shrinking greens, and planting of trees. Should we simply wait to see the great architecture disappear?
Ballyneal had a membership that supported golf at its very finest. Even Melvyn would approve! ;)
The Founding Members put in $5.0 million, the current owner put in $5.0 million +. The Founding Members currently own 0.00% of the equity and 0.00% of the debt. The current owner, brother-in-law, put in $5.0+ million and owns 100%. Let's ignore the regular members for this conversation.
Did I miss anything?
Oh right, the 99 year lease on the housing. I have to admit, I did not understand that one.
Forgot that they announced less than one year ago that they were building a second 18 hole course. Less than 12 months later, it is being purchased in state court?
My wife recently received a check for $5000 for a club that her parents were "founding members" of in the 1950's. The estate made $0.00 on that investment 50+ years later and that is a good thing.
Please feel free to correct any of the above.
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I think the best part of this thread is that the total number of people on the planet who might be remotely interested, including everyone who has ever had a financial interest in the place, might equal 350. That's what made Jud's comment yesterday so damn funny. If there was ever an indication of GCA.com myopia (pun intended), this is it.
Golf courses are closing every day, this isn't news. Businesses close every day, this isn't news. Ballyneal is, was and will always be a business. I've seen less of an emotional breakdown from people who worked for GM for 30+ years that watched their pension evaporate while the union and the secured lenders were fighting over the carcass.
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Yep, golf courses fail all the time.. how many of them were #6 on the Golfweek top 100 modern courses?
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4. Lekarica - Stiles and Van Kleek that is now a $25 public course.
You overpaid
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Yep, golf courses fail all the time.. how many of them were #6 on the Golfweek top 100 modern courses?
That'd be relevant if a majority of Brad's panel wasn't also a member of GCA.com.
Do me a favor, head down to your local public track or if it is cold where you are, your local golf retail shop and ask everyone you see what their thoughts are on the Ballyneal situation. Let me know what you find out.
edit: I just went to golfwrx.com and checked their forums. I looked at the first two pages of their section on courses and the number of threads about Ballyneal = 0.
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Yep, golf courses fail all the time.. how many of them were #6 on the Golfweek top 100 modern courses?
2 in the top 10 and 4 in the top 20.
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JC,
For the life of me I don't get why you say something like that.
A young man lost his life in my little TX town not long ago. It was devastating to those of us close to him. You didn't hear about it, didn't know him or his family, so its not news to you, which is fine, happens all the time all around the world. But I knew him very well, and it was very much news to me and my family, whether the rest of the world cared or not.
What is happening at Ballyneal may not be national news, but it matters to some people, and to dismiss it because you don't care doesn't make you smarter.
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I think the best part of this thread is that the total number of people on the planet who might be remotely interested, including everyone who has ever had a financial interest in the place, might equal 350. That's what made Jud's comment yesterday so damn funny. If there was ever an indication of GCA.com myopia (pun intended), this is it.
Golf courses are closing every day, this isn't news. Businesses close every day, this isn't news. Ballyneal is, was and will always be a business. I've seen less of an emotional breakdown from people who worked for GM for 30+ years that watched their pension evaporate while the union and the secured lenders were fighting over the carcass.
And yet, some four long months ago, you were the person that started this thread...
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What is happening at Ballyneal may not be national news, but it matters to some people, and to dismiss it because you don't care doesn't make you smarter.
Confirming what Don said, the great thing about the internet and this website is you can find a small group of people that are passionate about very narrow niche topics.
I don't subscribe to Golf Digest anymore and I don't watch CNN, but I do send in my contribution here.
And yet, some four long months ago, you were the person that started this thread...
Wow, I am soooooo disappointed in myself that I did not pick up on that one first. Nicely done Greg!
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JC,
For the life of me I don't get why you say something like that.
A young man lost his life in my little TX town not long ago. It was devastating to those of us close to him. You didn't hear about it, didn't know him or his family, so its not news to you, which is fine, happens all the time all around the world. But I knew him very well, and it was very much news to me and my family, whether the rest of the world cared or not.
What is happening at Ballyneal may not be national news, but it matters to some people, and to dismiss it because you don't care doesn't make you smarter.
Nothing hammers my point home more than drawing an analogy to the death of a human being.
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There seems to be an overwhelming presumption that John Curlander is going to ruin Ballyneal. Why do you people feel that way? Why is not possible to accept that he is going to save the place from returning to cow pasture? The best days of Ballyneal may be just around the corner.
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I think the best part of this thread is that the total number of people on the planet who might be remotely interested, including everyone who has ever had a financial interest in the place, might equal 350. That's what made Jud's comment yesterday so damn funny. If there was ever an indication of GCA.com myopia (pun intended), this is it.
Golf courses are closing every day, this isn't news. Businesses close every day, this isn't news. Ballyneal is, was and will always be a business. I've seen less of an emotional breakdown from people who worked for GM for 30+ years that watched their pension evaporate while the union and the secured lenders were fighting over the carcass.
And yet, some four long months ago, you were the person that started this thread...
Big disconnect between my original post and the ensuing 18 pages
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JC,
For the life of me I don't get why you say something like that.
A young man lost his life in my little TX town not long ago. It was devastating to those of us close to him. You didn't hear about it, didn't know him or his family, so its not news to you, which is fine, happens all the time all around the world. But I knew him very well, and it was very much news to me and my family, whether the rest of the world cared or not.
What is happening at Ballyneal may not be national news, but it matters to some people, and to dismiss it because you don't care doesn't make you smarter.
Nothing hammers my point home more than drawing an analogy to the death of a human being.
What IS your point?
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And yet, some four long months ago, you were the person that started this thread...
Wow, I am soooooo disappointed in myself that I did not pick up on that one first. Nicely done Greg!
As tall as you are it surprises me that it would be over your head.
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What IS your point?
Proportionality
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JC,
Its about loss.
For you no loss, so you mock.
Not all that funny to those feeling the pain.
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I think the best part of this thread is that the total number of people on the planet who might be remotely interested, including everyone who has ever had a financial interest in the place, might equal 350. That's what made Jud's comment yesterday so damn funny. If there was ever an indication of GCA.com myopia (pun intended), this is it.
Golf courses are closing every day, this isn't news. Businesses close every day, this isn't news. Ballyneal is, was and will always be a business. I've seen less of an emotional breakdown from people who worked for GM for 30+ years that watched their pension evaporate while the union and the secured lenders were fighting over the carcass.
And yet, some four long months ago, you were the person that started this thread...
Big disconnect between my original post and the ensuing 18 pages
Well, you started the thread for a reason...and you know how passionate about the place people are on here...I'm not sure what exactly you expected to happen...
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JC,
Its about loss.
For you no loss, so you mock.
Not all that funny to those feeling the pain.
Don,
Get a grip. How many people on this thread "suffered a loss"? Half dozen? Forgive me for not making a financial hiccup for a bunch of rich people akin to a kid dying.
Death is loss. $50k to rich people who can afford a $50k membership isn't on that level.
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JC,
Its about loss.
For you no loss, so you mock.
Not all that funny to those feeling the pain.
Don,
Get a grip. How many people on this thread "suffered a loss"? Half dozen? Forgive me for not making a financial hiccup for a bunch of rich people akin to a kid dying.
Death is loss. $50k to rich people who can afford a $50k membership isn't on that level.
JC,
The 20 Founding Members lost $250,000 each. They have been advised by their attorney to not comment. That does not mean they are not feeling pain. Sure for some it is not a big deal, but certainly not all.
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JC,
I've asked this before of you, I'll ask again. What's your angle? What's your point? I don't understand why you're so mad. Your passion on this and other threads makes no sense to me. Quit stirring dog piles with a stick because it makes it stink more. What good does that serve?
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JC,
The 20 Founding Members lost $250,000 each. They have been advised by their attorney to not comment. That does not mean they are not feeling pain. Sure for some it is not a big deal, but certainly not all.
I'm concerned about your reading comprehension.
They made a business decision and lost money. I agree, that really sucks. But for a couple hundred people with no skin in the game to meltdown over it on an internet message board and act as if someone died is a bit over the top, no? No one is disputing it's noteworthiness.
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JC,
Its about loss.
For you no loss, so you mock.
Not all that funny to those feeling the pain.
Don,
Get a grip. How many people on this thread "suffered a loss"? Half dozen? Forgive me for not making a financial hiccup for a bunch of rich people akin to a kid dying.
Death is loss. $50k to rich people who can afford a $50k membership isn't on that level.
Save your advice.
I don't hear anyone complaining about money.
Shit happens that people care about, the fact you don't care is irrelevant.
I don't see anyone melting down.
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There seems to be an overwhelming presumption that John Curlander is going to ruin Ballyneal. Why do you people feel that way? Why is not possible to accept that he is going to save the place from returning to cow pasture? The best days of Ballyneal may be just around the corner.
Sarge,
If the man gave 10% of the equity to the Founding Members and 5% of the equity to the Regular Members, he would create an enormous amount of goodwill. 85% ownership with goodwill is much more valuable than 100% ownership.
It is simply good business and good karma for him to pull in the members into whatever is the next phase of Ballyneal. Please name the great club without a great membership?
There are many historic clubs that have been through financial hardships, but I have never heard of such a one sided deal at any of those clubs.
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Don,
Where did I say I didn't care?
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There seems to be an overwhelming presumption that John Curlander is going to ruin Ballyneal. Why do you people feel that way? Why is not possible to accept that he is going to save the place from returning to cow pasture? The best days of Ballyneal may be just around the corner.
Sarge,
If the man gave 10% of the equity to the Founding Members and 5% of the equity to the Regular Members, he would create an enormous amount of goodwill. 85% ownership with goodwill is much more valuable than 100% ownership.
It is simply good business and good karma for him to pull in the members into whatever is the next phase of Ballyneal. Please name the great club without a great membership?
There are many historic clubs that have been through financial hardships, but I have never heard of such a one sided deal at any of those clubs.
Mike:
Thank you for that last post. I have been hoping that someone would see the light on that, to no avail. He is acting like a too big to fail banker, but ironically, in reverse -- you made the loan, so it's all your fault! Although, to be fair to Mr. Curlander, there are a lot of members who wouldn't be happy with the percentages you propose, either.
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There seems to be an overwhelming presumption that John Curlander is going to ruin Ballyneal. Why do you people feel that way? Why is not possible to accept that he is going to save the place from returning to cow pasture? The best days of Ballyneal may be just around the corner.
Sarge
Exactly the point I made in my earlier post. A hard look at reality has a way of making folks see sense. If its no skin off the members' collective nose (and there well could be situation where many fear they will lose some skin) why not hang about and see what comes of it all? In any case, I hope it all turns out well because I hate to see any American business fail.
Ciao
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There seems to be an overwhelming presumption that John Curlander is going to ruin Ballyneal. Why do you people feel that way? Why is not possible to accept that he is going to save the place from returning to cow pasture? The best days of Ballyneal may be just around the corner.
Sarge,
If the man gave 10% of the equity to the Founding Members and 5% of the equity to the Regular Members, he would create an enormous amount of goodwill. 85% ownership with goodwill is much more valuable than 100% ownership.
Keep in mind they didn't have that deal before, why should they expect it now.
It wasn't Curlander who screwed the members
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What is the difference between then and now? The people running it are the same people.
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There seems to be an overwhelming presumption that John Curlander is going to ruin Ballyneal. Why do you people feel that way? Why is not possible to accept that he is going to save the place from returning to cow pasture? The best days of Ballyneal may be just around the corner.
Sarge
Exactly the point I made in my earlier post. A hard look at reality has a way of making folks see sense. If its no skin off the members' collective nose (and there well could be situation where many fear they will lose some skin) why not hang about and see what comes of it all? In any case, I hope it all turns out well because I hate to see any American business fail.
Ciao
Sean,
That's really the interesting thing, isn't it? What's another few thousand dollars when you've already sunk so much in? I think it boils down to this: is this really Ballyneal 2.0 (a new day, debt-free club, market-realistic pricing, benevolent dictator) or just Ballyneal 1.1? I think if it were Ballyneal 2.0, many or most existing members would be on board and would champion the place to their friends and folks here. Many question the business model but I absolutely believe a Ballyneal 2.0 would thrive. So one has to wonder why many are prepared to walk when sticking it out and at least kicking the tires seems like the logical next move. I haven't decided what I'm going to do yet. It's a complicated issue.
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There seems to be an overwhelming presumption that John Curlander is going to ruin Ballyneal. Why do you people feel that way? Why is not possible to accept that he is going to save the place from returning to cow pasture? The best days of Ballyneal may be just around the corner.
Sarge,
If the man gave 10% of the equity to the Founding Members and 5% of the equity to the Regular Members, he would create an enormous amount of goodwill. 85% ownership with goodwill is much more valuable than 100% ownership.
It is simply good business and good karma for him to pull in the members into whatever is the next phase of Ballyneal. Please name the great club without a great membership?
There are many historic clubs that have been through financial hardships, but I have never heard of such a one sided deal at any of those clubs.
Mike,
This is just a perfect example of the free market at work. Where is Lou Duran when you need him?
You're a Wall Street man, Mike, tell me if Goldman should write checks for $2k to all of their clients who lost money last year. I bet that would create some good will. Hell, I'm going call Fidelity because my 401K lost 5% last quarter.
The secured lender exercised his rights in foreclosure. What is there to be mad at? Why would you expect him to function differently than any other secured lender? Everybody goes apeshit over poor people who need foodstamps, but when it comes time to bailout someone who invested $250k in a walking only golf course in the middle of nowhere, all of a sudden everyone turns into Robert Owen.
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JC,
Do you regret that you started this mess?
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The secured lender exercised his rights in foreclosure. What is there to be mad at? Why would you expect him to function differently than any other secured lender? Everybody goes apeshit over poor people who need foodstamps, but when it comes time to bailout someone who invested $250k in a walking only golf course in the middle of nowhere, all of a sudden everyone turns into Robert Owen.
Robert Owen? That's PHD level stuff at State isn't it? Let's not get overly intellectual here and keep things exactly where they belong, in the gutter and on TMZ....
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The secured lender exercised his rights in foreclosure. What is there to be mad at? Why would you expect him to function differently than any other secured lender? Everybody goes apeshit over poor people who need foodstamps, but when it comes time to bailout someone who invested $250k in a walking only golf course in the middle of nowhere, all of a sudden everyone turns into Robert Owen.
Robert Owen? That's PHD level stuff at State isn't it? Let's not get overly intellectual here and keep things exactly where they belong, in the gutter and on TMZ....
;D
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JC,
Do you regret that you started this mess?
It was on golf digest writers' twitters and the blogs of members of Ballyneal before it got posted to GCA.com.
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The secured lender exercised his rights in foreclosure. What is there to be mad at? Why would you expect him to function differently than any other secured lender? Everybody goes apeshit over poor people who need foodstamps, but when it comes time to bailout someone who invested $250k in a walking only golf course in the middle of nowhere, all of a sudden everyone turns into Robert Owen.
There is one big difference here.. Unlike any of the financial examples, the investors are now your members and a key revenue stream fora business that was foreclosed on because it didnt have enough revenue.
This isn't about a bailout, its about making a good business decision by creating goodwill about your key CUSTOMERS. If the new owner wants to upset existing membership and let them walk, that's his prerogative to do so. However, if he does, he better have a plan to replace their dues, guest fees and restaurant spending.
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So one has to wonder why many are prepared to walk when sticking it out and at least kicking the tires seems like the logical next move. I haven't decided what I'm going to do yet. It's a complicated issue.
I encourage you to be logical. You joined for the golf course. It's still there.
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So one has to wonder why many are prepared to walk when sticking it out and at least kicking the tires seems like the logical next move. I haven't decided what I'm going to do yet. It's a complicated issue.
I encourage you to be logical. You joined for the golf course. It's still there.
Thanks John Cullum
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Although, to be fair to Mr. Curlander, there are a lot of members who wouldn't be happy with the percentages you propose, either.
Tom,
That was based on my understanding that the membership put in $5.0 million, but I was corrected that it was closer to $7.0 million
Either way, it is pretty simple to solve that difference. The numbers are conceptual, but the solution is:
His best sales force is the old membership. Start them out as 15% ownership. He can put himself in as a preferred (stock or convertible debt, I don't know enough details) so that he is the first to get his money out, which I am told is his goal. As the new membership grows, the equity that the members own grows. New initiations pay him off. Give the old members the incentive to build equity in the club. He gets paid out over time, his equity is reduced as the preferred is reduced.
So one has to wonder why many are prepared to walk when sticking it out and at least kicking the tires seems like the logical next move. I haven't decided what I'm going to do yet. It's a complicated issue.
I encourage you to be logical. You joined for the golf course. It's still there.
Sarge,
Based on Jim's good deeds last summer, I think he can play just about anywhere. I think he joined Ballyneal for the golf club that had a great golf course. Jim can correct me.
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I think he joined Ballyneal for the golf club that had a great golf course. Jim can correct me.
A word of advice to those who want to join a great club- Don't put any serious money down unless its a member owned club
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Mike,
The club and course were really one and the same for me. It's hard to imagine a 2012 without golf at Ballyneal for me. It's also hard to imagine golf at Ballyneal in 2012 without running into the friends I've made over the past 4+ years.
Look, it's no secret that I really love Ballyneal. I really want to play golf there this summer. The fact that I'm still on the fence should be some indication how complicated the issues there are.
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Nothing like the intersection of money and passion to reveal character. Even golf does not do it as well...
Best wishes for everyone involved, I hope it works out in some respect.
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...
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Don't know the principals involved. But based on prior experience...The good thing about a benevolent dictator running a club is that he makes all the decisions. The bad thing about a benevolent dictator running a club is that he makes all the decisions. For better or worse, a club is the membership and culture which starts at the top, not just a golf course.
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So one has to wonder why many are prepared to walk when sticking it out and at least kicking the tires seems like the logical next move. I haven't decided what I'm going to do yet. It's a complicated issue.
I encourage you to be logical. You joined for the golf course. It's still there.
There are a lot of wonderful golf courses out there that I really need to play. Ballyneal, been there done that, tired of the drama, and don't think they want me. A lot of members feel that way. A lot of members don't see the difference between 1.0 & 1.1(thanks Jim) A lot of people don't think this model will survive financially so maybe time to cut your losses and move on. There is more golf to play :D. Maybe 2.0 when that occurs, if not involved elsewhere.
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There seems to be an overwhelming presumption that John Curlander is going to ruin Ballyneal. Why do you people feel that way? Why is not possible to accept that he is going to save the place from returning to cow pasture? The best days of Ballyneal may be just around the corner.
Sarge
Exactly the point I made in my earlier post. A hard look at reality has a way of making folks see sense. If its no skin off the members' collective nose (and there well could be situation where many fear they will lose some skin) why not hang about and see what comes of it all? In any case, I hope it all turns out well because I hate to see any American business fail.
Ciao
Sean,
That's really the interesting thing, isn't it? What's another few thousand dollars when you've already sunk so much in? I think it boils down to this: is this really Ballyneal 2.0 (a new day, debt-free club, market-realistic pricing, benevolent dictator) or just Ballyneal 1.1? I think if it were Ballyneal 2.0, many or most existing members would be on board and would champion the place to their friends and folks here. Many question the business model but I absolutely believe a Ballyneal 2.0 would thrive. So one has to wonder why many are prepared to walk when sticking it out and at least kicking the tires seems like the logical move. I haven't decided what I'm going to do yet. It's a complicated issue.
Jim
If its really about the folks and course, then I think many will hang on for a spell and see what gives. That said, feeling betrayed (if that is the case here) is a tough thing to forgive of the people we love let alone the people we do business with. I can see both sides. I don't really know the business model or its chances of success, but I hope common sense prevails all round as the course does look something extra-special.
Ciao
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Looking at a previous post....
And please forgive me for my financial ignorance...
But why would the founding members put in that much money and not get any equity in return? It looks like according to Mike, it was half of the money put in overall at 5 Mill, or perhaps even 7 mill as suggested in another post? Meanwhile, this other guy puts up the other half and owns the entire thing?
I'm trying to think of any business model where I'm a founding investor in a company, put up a substantial amount of money to get it off the ground, and not get any shares/equity in return? This sounds a bit like a hustle to me, unless I just don't understand the nature of what the original arrangement was.
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The more pieces of real information that trickle in to me, the sadder i become for the Members, unsecured creditors and those associated with this club. Lets hope over time this becomes a better story than what appears to be the case now. Many of us have friends who are members as well as part of the design team with Tom and know Rupert and Jim. It is a great course. Time will tell. My fingers are crossed.
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Looking at a previous post....
And please forgive me for my financial ignorance...
But why would the founding members put in that much money and not get any equity in return? It looks like according to Mike, it was half of the money put in overall at 5 Mill, or perhaps even 7 mill as suggested in another post? Meanwhile, this other guy puts up the other half and owns the entire thing?
I'm trying to think of any business model where I'm a founding investor in a company, put up a substantial amount of money to get it off the ground, and not get any shares/equity in return? This sounds a bit like a hustle to me, unless I just don't understand the nature of what the original arrangement was.
Kalen - it all depends where you are in the capital stack...
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After learning what everybody on this site was reading I suddenly felt intellectually inadequate to participate in the discussion group. Thanks to this thread, many otherwise bright people have suddenly come back to the pack. Proving once again that Dad was right - we're all ignorant, just about different things.
Knowing nothing about Ballyneal, I realize that sometimes not everybody involved gets the deal they bargained for, regardless of whether their capital contribution is cloaked as equity or debt and that as a result they can ultimately be surprised by where they fell in the pecking order, or as the financial cognoscenti like to call it, the capital stack. Perhaps capital is raised on a piece-meal basis and side deals are cut without the consent or knowledge of previous capital providers (be they members, lenders or investors). Folks get screwed. Again, I know nothing about Ballyneal - I'm just saying it happens.
Bottom line, debt is an unforgiving and inflexible master and absent the stay of bankrupty foreclosure wipes everybody else out. Think of it this way, when the food is limited, some folks are going to have to be excused from the table and the lender had the only reservation. In such instances, everybody loses something. Being turned away is even more frustrating if the would-be-diners had been told that the establishment doesn't take reservations. In my work-out experience as a banker, we've never broken even on a foreclosure - not even close. As a result, I'm hardly inclined to give those wiped out a piece of the action going forward. Besides, the issue is moot as there isn't any equity to share.
Bogey
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I'm trying to think of any business model where I'm a founding investor in a company, put up a substantial amount of money to get it off the ground, and not get any shares/equity in return? This sounds a bit like a hustle to me, unless I just don't understand the nature of what the original arrangement was.
I'm wading into territory where I might get scolded -- that being that I'm totally ignorant of the details behind the Ballyneal deal. That said, it is not uncommon at all for equity holders to be totally taken out by a secured creditor when it all goes bad. Its also is not uncommon for some equity holders to have rights that are preferential to others.
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I suppose in retrospect this is true...I was thinking in terms of a "positive" event as my default start position with my last post.
With a negative event, it is a whole different ball game. I do recall now learning from a previous start up I was involved with that if there was a liquidity/restructuring event, despite the fact that I had shares in the company, I could pretty much count on getting nada ...due to others having preferred shares, and a lot more of them, as compared to my common shares.
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I suppose in retrospect this is true...I was thinking in terms of a "positive" event as my default start position with my last post.
With a negative event, it is a whole different ball game. I do recall now learning from a previous start up I was involved with that if there was a liquidity/restructuring event, despite the fact that I had shares in the company, I could pretty much count on getting nada ...due to others having preferred shares, and a lot more of them, as compared to my common shares.
Therein lies the rub. When things are going well, it's natural for "investors" to trust and try to lend a hand, believing in the future. It's when things go wrong that it gets ugly. Joe's right in that it's not uncommon for equity holders to get wiped out, but I'd also add, it's not unusual for equity investors to provide extra help if they trust the folks in charge, particularly when the investment carries a lot of social capital along with it.
It's pretty easy for me to say what I'd do if I ended up in charge, but that's why I'll never end up in charge...
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A possible solution that involves risk is for the displaced members to move over to Dismal River. They will soon have two awesome courses. The risk is that by moving to Dismal River, Ballyneal 2.0 will flame out into bankruptcy and then they are in position to buy the club at an even better discount than Curlander achieved. If Ballyneal succeeds without them then they will have lost a second time on a Doak masterpiece course. There are a few courses in SoCal that are finally doing well on their 3rd incarnation because the debt service is finally realistic.
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A possible solution that involves risk is for the displaced members to move over to Dismal River. They will soon have two awesome courses. The risk is that by moving to Dismal River, Ballyneal 2.0 will flame out into bankruptcy and then they are in position to buy the club at an even better discount than Curlander achieved. If Ballyneal succeeds without them then they will have lost a second time on a Doak masterpiece course. There are a few courses in SoCal that are finally doing well on their 3rd incarnation because the debt service is finally realistic.
Chris, is that you? :)
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Nope. I've been driving all day from Dismal back to Jackson Hole. Isn't the worst idea I've ever heard. ;D
I'm avoiding this thread like the plague but do hope for the best for all involved at Ballyneal and will always do what I can to help.
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??
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...
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---
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Tim I will gladly delete it.
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Tim I will gladly delete it.
Thank you Tiger.
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.
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I'm. Wondering how many People would change their tune if they had over heard Ronnie say that he might not be the second Owner but its third?
Ronnie is RO'N?
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Who is "Sarge?"
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Article from the local Holyoke paper:
http://www.holyokeenterprise.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5014:ballyneal-foreclosure-sale-complete&catid=63:featured-articles (http://www.holyokeenterprise.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5014:ballyneal-foreclosure-sale-complete&catid=63:featured-articles)
No reported changes on the golf operations:
-- "Golf course will essentially operate the same, according to Matt Payne, head golf professional and general manager."
-- "Payne said Curlander plans to operate Ballyneal as a private destination walking-only golf club, utilizing a caddie program."
-- "The first order of business will be to get members. Payne said they plan to reach out to previous members of the old Ballyneal Golf & Hunt Club to invite them back to membership in the new Ballyneal. From there, they will try to find new members, as well."
-- "In the past, Ballyneal opened for the season around the middle of May or beginning of June, and Payne anticipates that will be the timeline for the 2012 season as well."
But there's good news for neighboring pheasants as the hunt club will cease operations.
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A possible solution that involves risk is for the displaced members to move over to Dismal River. They will soon have two awesome courses. The risk is that by moving to Dismal River, Ballyneal 2.0 will flame out into bankruptcy and then they are in position to buy the club at an even better discount than Curlander achieved. If Ballyneal succeeds without them then they will have lost a second time on a Doak masterpiece course. There are a few courses in SoCal that are finally doing well on their 3rd incarnation because the debt service is finally realistic.
Chris, is that you? :)
Classic, Jim. Classic. Wishing you and all those involved with BN the best. This thread has me seriously rethinking some recent "investments."
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"[ballyneal] members think Tom is God"
Some interesting tidbits here. Limited cart play?
http://www.coloradoavidgolfer.com/news-and-press/ballyneal-s-fresh-start.aspx
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"[ballyneal] members think Tom is God"
Some interesting tidbits here. Limited cart play?
http://www.coloradoavidgolfer.com/news-and-press/ballyneal-s-fresh-start.aspx
Sounds good at least in the short term. Is limited cart play a non starter for some of the prior members that they are looking to bring back on board?
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Another 9 by Tom?!
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JC Jones had told me he was interested in joining based on the new financial offerings. I wasn't sure if it would come to fruition, but it is good to see this happen!
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I am a member of Ballyneal and just committed for 2012. I joined in 2011, so you can do the math. I hate taking carts. I think it is a great idea to offer limited cart use.
They need new members, right? No need to significantly limit your potential demographic.
The last 48 hours have honestly been the first time I have started to feel good about things.
Hopefully momentum is starting to shift.
Brian
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JC Jones had told me he was interested in joining based on the new financial offerings. I wasn't sure if it would come to fruition, but it is good to see this happen!
Friends don't let friends drink and post on GCA.com
Happy St Paddy's day your Irish bastard.
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Wonderful News!
Congratulations Ballynealers!
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I am a member of Ballyneal and just committed for 2012. I joined in 2011, so you can do the math. I hate taking carts. I think it is a great idea to offer limited cart use.
They need new members, right? No need to significantly limit your potential demographic.
The last 48 hours have honestly been the first time I have started to feel good about things.
Hopefully momentum is starting to shift.
Brian
Brian-Best of luck going forward and I think despite not being a cart fan your attitude is spot on for the good of the club. 9 more holes by Doak is sure going to sweeten the prospectus for potential new members if it happens. That is some exciting stuff.
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JC Jones had told me he was interested in joining
Jeez,
Between this revelation and me actually rooting for Ohio State in the tournament for financial reasons, I may have to go to confession tomorrow...
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Jud,
I come to this site to stop thinking about the (temporary) woes of my beloved Michigan.
Was strange to root for OSU over MSU 2 weeks ago. Never again I hope.
Brian 96'
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JC Jones had told me he was interested in joining
Jeez,
Between this revelation and me actually rooting for Ohio State in the tournament for financial reasons, I may have to go to confession tomorrow...
I think you going to confession would be the biggest of the 3.
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Jud,
I come to this site to stop thinking about the (temporary) woes of my beloved Michigan.
Was strange to root for OSU over MSU 2 weeks ago. Never again I hope.
Brian 96'
But I didn't think we were your rivals....
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Jud,
I come to this site to stop thinking about the (temporary) woes of my beloved Michigan.
Was strange to root for OSU over MSU 2 weeks ago. Never again I hope.
Brian 96'
But I didn't think we were your rivals....
JC,
Wrong message board for this battle. We'll settle this in Holyoke.
Brian
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Brian and Jud - Look at the positives...at least you guys know who "Ohio" is now.
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Brian and Jud - Look at the positives...at least you guys know who "Ohio" is now.
sound of me wincing
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Ohio = Referred to as "Harvard on the Hocking".
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"At least you guys know who "OHIO" is now!
Classic!
GO GREEN!
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Great news for all things Ballyneal!
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"[ballyneal] members think Tom is God"
Don't you mean GCA'ers?
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I thought one of main issues with carts was the impact on the fescue. I suppose if it is limited that may do the trick.
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I thought one of main issues with carts was the impact on the fescue. I suppose if it is limited that may do the trick.
May leave some tracks but won't affect play.
Good to see people supporting Mr. Curlander's efforts!
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It seems like they could do something like, after you play your 1st 18 of the day, you can use a cart on your 2nd 18. Or have cart use for those with a medical exemption.
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I thought one of main issues with carts was the impact on the fescue. I suppose if it is limited that may do the trick.
May leave some tracks but won't affect play.
Good to see people supporting Mr. Curlander's efforts!
Keeping the caddie off the back of a fully loaded cart ::) ::)would help be big help to the fescue.........
those familiar with the cart/caddie ::) ::) process know what I mean
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"[ballyneal] members think Tom is God"
Some interesting tidbits here. Limited cart play?
http://www.coloradoavidgolfer.com/news-and-press/ballyneal-s-fresh-start.aspx
Sounds good at least in the short term. Is limited cart play a non starter for some of the prior members that they are looking to bring back on board?
Isn't that picture of JC and Tom on the restaurant wall? I think I've seen that a number of times.
Anyone who has seen footprints on the fescue in July, has serious reservations about carts on that surface in Holyoke, Co. They will have to change the grasses, and hence how it plays? "Get down with brown " will be gone.
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Article from the local Holyoke paper:
http://www.holyokeenterprise.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5014:ballyneal-foreclosure-sale-complete&catid=63:featured-articles (http://www.holyokeenterprise.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5014:ballyneal-foreclosure-sale-complete&catid=63:featured-articles)
No reported changes on the golf operations:
-- "Payne said Curlander plans to operate Ballyneal as a private destination walking-only golf club, utilizing a caddie program."
There seems to be a disconnect on the cart thing relative to what the recent Holyoke Enterprise article said about the topic.
I think they've had limited cart availability the last few years, but only in unique circumstances and only when the turf can handle it. I think most of the time the carts stick to the maintenance paths which in many cases are way outside the holes. In some cases, it requires the golfer to walk and the caddie to meet up with you later on. Adam might have a better idea how it works.
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PP
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I tried to get into the GCA thing but couldn't so I gave the place the gufata.
Anthony
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Can someone explain the issue with the carts and the fescue grass? Kingsley has fescue turf and allows carts and I have never noticed an issue. Is it a different type of fescue or the different climate or something else? I always thought the walking only thing at Ballyneal was part of the vibe, along with no tee markers and no yardage markers. Never heard it was a turf issue before this thread.
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We have significant visual damage, (brown tracks) only on the really hot days in Summer, might only be a couple of spots, especially if getting everything irrigated the night before was challenged by other factors.
I am only guessing, but think that is over 38-40 + degrees C, over 100F.
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Same with Dismal River. Cart tracks but playability isn't an issue.
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http://www.coloradoavidgolfer.com/news-and-press/ballyneal-s-fresh-start.aspx
Curlander states:
"We’re not Augusta, Pine Valley or Cypress Point."
___________________________________________
I don't know that much about Cypress Point or Augusta, but I know a little about Pine Valley.
Pine Valley always was a "second club" similar to Ballyneal. In the 1920's there was no plane travel to speak of, and getting to South Jersey was probably no picnic from even Main Line Philadelphia.
I would encourage Curlander to read Chapters 4-12 of Jim Finnegan's "Pine Valley Golf Club - A Unique Haven of the Game" and see what William deKrafft, Brown and others went through for years and years to save the club. The Board tried to save every membership that resigned during The Depression and they worked with every member to keep the club afloat.
He should also read about the Arkell Trust at Ekwanok Country Club, and how Newport Country Club invited local businessmen during the late 1940's to join as members. Some of the locals did not even play golf, but NCC recognized that they could not survive in the modern era with a Mansion Row membership. Even when I caddied there in 1984, they were still integrating the membership.
Curlander's statement simply seems like the words of a smart guy who got lucky and flipped his company at the right time and place. If you read what Pine Valley, Fishers and some other great clubs went through, you see that a longer term vision is needed. Short term flips between brother-in-laws won't work.
Other than location, why would anyone join Ballyneal when Dismal is building a Doak course to compliment the Nicklaus course? Facility to facility, Ballyneal can't compete when the new Doak course opens. That have to compete in other ways, and the membership would be the first focus, IMO.
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http://www.coloradoavidgolfer.com/news-and-press/ballyneal-s-fresh-start.aspx
Curlander states:
"We’re not Augusta, Pine Valley or Cypress Point."
___________________________________________
I don't know that much about Cypress Point or Augusta, but I know a little about Pine Valley.
Pine Valley always was a "second club" similar to Ballyneal. In the 1920's there was no plane travel to speak of, and getting to South Jersey was probably no picnic from even Main Line Philadelphia.
I would encourage Curlander to read Chapters 4-12 of Jim Finnegan's "Pine Valley Golf Club - A Unique Haven of the Game" and see what William deKrafft, Brown and others went through for years and years to save the club. The Board tried to save every membership that resigned during The Depression and they worked with every member to keep the club afloat.
He should also read about the Arkell Trust at Ekwanok Country Club, and how Newport Country Club invited local businessmen during the late 1940's to join as members. Some of the locals did not even play golf, but NCC recognized that they could not survive in the modern era with a Mansion Row membership. Even when I caddied there in 1984, they were still integrating the membership.
Curlander's statement simply seems like the words of a smart guy who got lucky and flipped his company at the right time and place. If you read what Pine Valley, Fishers and some other great clubs went through, you see that a longer term vision is needed. Short term flips between brother-in-laws won't work.
Other than location, why would anyone join Ballyneal when Dismal is building a Doak course to compliment the Nicklaus course? Facility to facility, Ballyneal can't compete when the new Doak course opens. That have to compete in other ways, and the membership would be the first focus, IMO.
Shouldn't we let the new course at Dismal open before we go crazy for it?
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Shouldn't we let the new course at Dismal open before we go crazy for it?
Sam,
I said the same exact thing about Streamsong and have now seen enough and talked to enough people to say that it will be the #1 winter destination for GCAers.
Let's assume Doak @ Dismal is borderline Top 100 Modern, my opinion would stay the same.
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Shouldn't we let the new course at Dismal open before we go crazy for it?
Sam,
I said the same exact thing about Streamsong and have now seen enough and talked to enough people to say that it will be the #1 winter destination for GCAers.
Let's assume Doak @ Dismal is borderline Top 100 Modern, my opinion would stay the same.
I thought Streamstrong didn't open until the fall?
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I thought Streamstrong didn't open until the fall?
Sam,
This is Golf Club Atlas. Open to the public and open to "friends, family and raters" are two separate things. ;)
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I thought Streamstrong didn't open until the fall?
Sam,
This is Golf Club Atlas. Open to the public and open to "friends, family and raters" are two separate things. ;)
I guess nobody likes me.
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Other than location, why would anyone join Ballyneal when Dismal is building a Doak course to compliment the Nicklaus course? Facility to facility, Ballyneal can't compete when the new Doak course opens. That have to compete in other ways, and the membership would be the first focus, IMO.
Mike,
That's an interesting question, and one I guess I was faced with this offseason since CJ was gracious enough to extend me an invitation to join DR. In the end, I think location counts for a lot, as I can get a lot more golf in a 3-day weekend at BN than DR or any other course in that region. I think the facilities are perfect. And I think the golf course is one of Tom's best if not his best. And it's there ready to play versus in progress. All of those factors made it a no-brainer in my mind. Plus staring at aerials and spending time out in the surrounding land, I think there is opportunity for at least two more courses out there. I'd love to get to the point where we could give Tommy Deez the blank canvas and say have at it (again).
I think the silver lining in this economic mess is that it's an absolute great time to join one of these clubs and get in on the new ground floor. Hopefully there are enough guys who feel strongly enough to want to see these places make it.
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Other than location, why would anyone join Ballyneal when Dismal is building a Doak course to compliment the Nicklaus course? Facility to facility, Ballyneal can't compete when the new Doak course opens. That have to compete in other ways, and the membership would be the first focus, IMO.
Mike,
That's an interesting question, and one I guess I was faced with this offseason since CJ was gracious enough to extend me an invitation to join DR. In the end, I think location counts for a lot, as I can get a lot more golf in a 3-day weekend at BN than DR or any other course in that region. I think the facilities are perfect. And I think the golf course is one of Tom's best if not his best. And it's there ready to play versus in progress. All of those factors made it a no-brainer in my mind. Plus staring at aerials and spending time out in the surrounding land, I think there is opportunity for at least two more courses out there. I'd love to get to the point where we could give Tommy Deez the blank canvas and say have at it (again).
I think the silver lining in this economic mess is that it's an absolute great time to join one of these clubs and get in on the new ground floor. Hopefully there are enough guys who feel strongly enough to want to see these places make it.
Well said. Did you consider Colorado Golf Club? I've never been there but it would seem the best place to go to play lots of golf. If Ballyneal has a competitor it must be her.
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CGC has a national membership. I didn't consider it.
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CGC has a national membership. I didn't consider it.
Yes and there is always next year.
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I think the silver lining in this economic mess is that it's an absolute great time to join one of these clubs and get in on the new ground floor. Hopefully there are enough guys who feel strongly enough to want to see these places make it.
Jim,
I am a member of Enniscrone GC which has gone through its own financial issues. When I got a newsletter over the winter describing how they had to let go a long time employee, I could feel the pain in the GM who wrote the newsletter.
It appears that you are trying to be analytical about the process as a now probably former member. I have never been to Ballyneal and have no plans to visit. I am a student of golf club history and have read and own many golf club histories in the time wasting time spent here and other places on this topic. Curlader called the foreclosure a "non event". I have never seen that term used in reference to any member in any club history. Why would a new member give him $10,000 when to him foreclosing on his current members was a "non event"?
I am a big boy and have gotten wiped out on a variety of investments. The same sort of thing just happened at Chechessee Creek, and I had a friend get wiped out on his loan/equity contributed about his initiation. The main differences in my mind are:
1. There was a real estate play at CCC from day one.
2. The old owner failed and a new owner came in from the membership roster, not a brother-in-law.
3. The membership at CCC was not nearly as financially and emotionally involved in the club. At Ballyneal, it is my understanding that the members contributed the majority of the money.
There are lots of great courses these days, very few great modern clubs, IMO. I have never met Chris Johnston and have had only have one direct exchange with him. Based on what I read and hear from others, I would pick him all day long over Curlander to run, grow, establish and curate a great club.
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http://www.coloradoavidgolfer.com/news-and-press/ballyneal-s-fresh-start.aspx
Curlander states:
"We’re not Augusta, Pine Valley or Cypress Point."
___________________________________________
I don't know that much about Cypress Point or Augusta, but I know a little about Pine Valley.
Pine Valley always was a "second club" similar to Ballyneal. In the 1920's there was no plane travel to speak of, and getting to South Jersey was probably no picnic from even Main Line Philadelphia.
I would encourage Curlander to read Chapters 4-12 of Jim Finnegan's "Pine Valley Golf Club - A Unique Haven of the Game" and see what William deKrafft, Brown and others went through for years and years to save the club. The Board tried to save every membership that resigned during The Depression and they worked with every member to keep the club afloat.
He should also read about the Arkell Trust at Ekwanok Country Club, and how Newport Country Club invited local businessmen during the late 1940's to join as members. Some of the locals did not even play golf, but NCC recognized that they could not survive in the modern era with a Mansion Row membership. Even when I caddied there in 1984, they were still integrating the membership.
Curlander's statement simply seems like the words of a smart guy who got lucky and flipped his company at the right time and place. If you read what Pine Valley, Fishers and some other great clubs went through, you see that a longer term vision is needed. Short term flips between brother-in-laws won't work.
Other than location, why would anyone join Ballyneal when Dismal is building a Doak course to compliment the Nicklaus course? Facility to facility, Ballyneal can't compete when the new Doak course opens. That have to compete in other ways, and the membership would be the first focus, IMO.
Mike:
Thanks for the vote of confidence in our work. However, there are two things to remember:
1. Dismal River does not yet have a golf course as good as Ballyneal. I'm hopeful that it will, soon, but I also know that Ballyneal is one of my very best courses and there is never a guarantee that any course turns out that good. Not all "Doak courses" are the same, and breaking into my top 3 or top 5 is not that easy, even for me. ;)
2. "Other than location" is a nice dodge, but location is pretty important to the future success of Ballyneal. It's exactly half as far from Denver [and the Denver airport] as Sand Hills or Dismal River, and if you haven't got your own jet, the difference between a three-hour drive and a six-hour drive is huge -- it's the difference between playing golf on your travel day or not, or the difference between a comfortable weekend trip and a three-day trip to play the same amount of golf.
For the latter reason, I've really never felt that the two projects compete with each other as much as people here think. Dismal River's natural market is Nebraska, and points east, and I think it's inevitable that eventually it will be a big part of a Nebraska golf trail that lures outsiders and supplements the members' dues. Ballyneal's natural market is Denver, and Denver is big enough to give it a solid foundation. But, one of the key early investors in Ballyneal was a Denver guy who left on very bad terms, with the result that Ballyneal was never going to sell many memberships there as long as the original management was in charge. It remains to be seen whether John Curlander can convince people in Denver that he does represent new leadership, and the original members will have a voice in that by their choice of whether to stay or leave.
2.
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Mike,
You might be right. I'm not ready to endorse John Curlander as the only thing I really know about him is he is Rupert's brother-in-law. But I am willing to put a few bucks in to find out and enjoy a great golf course in the mean time. No matter what you want to say about Rupert's management or leadership, Ballyneal doesn't exist without his vision so I'll always give him credit for that. And despite all that, in my opinion, Ballyneal had a great membership; just not enough of them in the end. The course is obviously very unique and is self-selecting in the type of golfers it attracts. These are generally guys I'm predisposed to enjoy being around. It saddens me that some of existing members won't be back.
But the way I look at it, it's now minimal investment to bring a few friends into the fold who might otherwise only come once a year. So if it means I get to play more golf with close friends than before, the utility of that membership will only increase.
Jim
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Tom,
For me, finally someone has articulated the practical differences between Ballyneal and the courses of Nebraska AND their demographic pools of potential members and guests...i havent noticed it in the last 22 pages.
The length of the drive into Nebraskan (?) sand hills from Denver, for us was a surprisingly long trip...but wow, what a trip with incredible golf, I hope that they all succeed, and that every golfer with a passion for fine, fine golf and a great golf experience, gets to see and play these in their lifetime.
BM
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All
Have to disagree - I don't believe location is an issue at all. Both Ballyneal and Dismal require an effort to get there, and the travel time is pretty much equal if flying in to North Platte. People will join where they feel they fit. Most members will be national, just like our neighbor Sand Hills. Dismal is bigger than Ballyneal - simply, we have more beds. For Ballyneal to expand from where thay are, it will require a substantial investment. We have alot of people who enjoy stopping by Ballyneal as part of a trip, and we would love to work with them.
John Curlander has gone, for some, from "villan" last week, to some doubting members now seem to be willing to give Ballyneal another shot. That is wonderful! I don't know John personally but know he did a good thing and it couldn't have been easy. That is a good thing for a great place. I don't know enough about the situation but John and his team have my full support as I know the difficulty of the task they face. I have said many times that we support Ballyneal and that has always been the case. The business isn't easy these days, and Ballyneal should have every chance to reach its potential. If we can help them, we will. John needs support. He has mine.
I know alot of people think we are, or should be, competitors. That is incredibly short sighted. Both places are different and very good, both have good people, and both are fun. The fact remains, we don't compete with each other...we compete with everything else.
Jim Colton is an advocate for Ballyneal, always has been. She will need more people like Jim to succeed.
Let's all support John's efforts. It is good for Ballyneal and good for the game.
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Chris/All,
For Ballyneal, I see one major positive vs the other great Sand Hill courses: Denver. As someone that is familiar with both the area (from Eastern CO) and region (live in Denver), I'd equate the Denver to Holyoke drive to Denver to Vail on a snow weekend. Including traffic, drive times are very comparable and the drive to Holyoke is much less stressful. Thus, I don't think the drive time should be a large limiting factor for the Denver market.
Personally, I feel Ballyneal focused too much on a National membership and not enough on the relative "closeness" of a major metropolitan area. I hear very little talk about Ballyneal at my Denver area club, and most have no issues with the 2-3 hr drive to Vail in the Winter. I realize there are other variables in play, mostly mountain houses/condos, but I'm not certain a strong Denver membership would detract from the Ballyneal experience. I can't imagine Ballyneal being overly busy with 2X+ the # of members, all while being in a better place financially. Perhaps the new fee structure will make that more feasable.
Just my unsolicited $0.02
John
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Given the new pricing structure, if I lived in Denver this would be a no-brainer. I'm not familiar with the Denver area golf scene, but if they can't get a bunch of new Denver members with this structure I'd be shocked.
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John - I agree with you 100% wrt Denver. Only issue is there are some really good newer clubs closer to Denver - CGC, CP & CPCC, Ravenna, etc in additional to the great old stalwarts. Also, from what I know, Denver folks generally head west for recreation and alot of people are alreay members of clubs in the mountains. That is no way to diminish Ballyneal, its just a bit of a "tweener" in a very competitive market. I also think there was some "taint" in Denver so let's hope that can be healed over time. I certainly think they can do it but it won't be easy.
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Aren't places like CGC significantly more expensive for a local membership?
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Aren't places like CGC significantly more expensive for a local membership?
Does anyone really know what it costs to join anywhere these days?
I had some of the best golfing days of my life at Ballyneal both playing golf with and having dinner with Rupert. Will he still be at least an ambassador for the club? It wouldn't be the same without him.
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I hope that Mr. Curlander implements some sort of incentive system to the existing members for bringing in or sponsoring new members. Most of the private clubs around here have such systems in effect and it seems only fair considering the fact that the members at Ballyneal who are grandfathered in paid at least 5X more to get into the club - other than having decent standing on most of the course ranking lists, I'd have to say the best marketing tool the club has is through positive word of mouth from their loyal members, who know what a great course (and club) they actually have.
I know this is just business to the new owner and perhaps I'm being naive but if it were me, I'd be doing everything possible with the existing members to ensure they are kept happy and engaged throughout the difficult process of rebuilding the membership.
I loved my very limited time spent at Ballyneal and hope to return again sooner rather than later. It's a wonderful place and I offer my best wishes to the club and especially the members who have maintained their patience through a difficult time.
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in any case ... the new financial model at Bally will be a very public test of the viability of this type of enterprise .. and given the economy .. it could be a harsh test .. IMHO ... the public-private model has the best chance of success .. something that apparently Bally is not willing to engage this time ..
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I would encourage Curlander to read Chapters 4-12 of Jim Finnegan's "Pine Valley Golf Club - A Unique Haven of the Game" and see what William deKrafft, Brown and others went through for years and years to save the club. The Board tried to save every membership that resigned during The Depression and they worked with every member to keep the club afloat.
I think the above comment from Mike is beyond interesting and just might be invaluable for any and all clubs currently operating.
I've tried to make it a point to study the operations of the world class golf clubs since their inception, and Pine Valley certainly is one of them. Survinving World Wars, Depressions, mutliple recessions, and daily life in general is no small feat. These clubs histories just might prove to be great "best practices" guidlelines.
My 2 cents for all golf clubs and their leadership.
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in any case ... the new financial model at Bally will be a very public test of the viability of this type of enterprise .. and given the economy .. it could be a harsh test .. IMHO ... the public-private model has the best chance of success .. something that apparently Bally is not willing to engage this time ..
Les, I would counter that Bally is a public attempt to be private model. If you want to go there you can, just call. The real question is , why be a member? for the discount price? Unless you are going to go multiple times a year, which isn't very many people even in GCA, it just isn't worth it and does not deny you access. Colton would always sponsor you.
The facility is so cash strapped that for the immediate future any who can pay will be allowed to go.
The members are there because they made an emotional commitment to the place, if unwise with their money.(from the totally financial perspective)
Brad
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in any case ... the new financial model at Bally will be a very public test of the viability of this type of enterprise .. and given the economy .. it could be a harsh test .. IMHO ... the public-private model has the best chance of success .. something that apparently Bally is not willing to engage this time ..
Les, I would counter that Bally is a public attempt to be private model. If you want to go there you can, just call. The real question is , why be a member? for the discount price? Unless you are going to go multiple times a year, which isn't very many people even in GCA, it just isn't worth it and does not deny you access. Colton would always sponsor you.
The facility is so cash strapped that for the immediate future any who can pay will be allowed to go.
The members are there because they made an emotional commitment to the place, if unwise with their money.(from the totally financial perspective)
Brad
Brad,
With all due respect, I think your entire post is ill-advised and based on assumptions instead of fact.
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Matt,
Quoting many of my friends who have out there multiple times with me, why should I join, I can go with you as much as I would ever want to.
They didn't go through a foreclosure because they had a business model that made them a lot of cash. They have the same, perhaps smaller customer base of members.
Maybe Mr. Curlander , who isn't a golfer, will support a club that lost money and seemingly will continue to lose money for a while.
So , I am confused. When I first went out there, I called, they said come on out........Why when they are trying to build a club would it be different?
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It doesn't seem to get discussed much on this board, but does anyone know how Prairie Club is doing with it's semi-private business model?
Matt, Brad does raise a good point. It seems like private clubs all need to figure out where they want to be on the exclusivity vs. outside revenue spectrum. I imagine it'd be very hard for clubs that are less than full to pass on the incremental income in order to protect the exclusivity that their members are willing to pay a premium for.
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It doesn't seem to get discussed much on this board, but does anyone know how Prairie Club is doing with it's semi-private business model?
When I visited the Prairie Club last year it felt like there were more members than public paying customers. Each day only members are allowed to play one of the 18's and they have a private bar and pool room upstairs.
I am looking for better things out of them now that they hired Kemper Sports to manage the place.
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Brad, I do not find anything you said to be correct on any level other than you are just posting an opinion of your own.
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It doesn't seem to get discussed much on this board, but does anyone know how Prairie Club is doing with it's semi-private business model?
Matt, Brad does raise a good point. It seems like private clubs all need to figure out where they want to be on the exclusivity vs. outside revenue spectrum. I imagine it'd be very hard for clubs that are less than full to pass on the incremental income in order to protect the exclusivity that their members are willing to pay a premium for.
Agreed, hence the Outpost Club exists and seems to thrive...
My local club and national club are (or will be very soon) Outpost Club participants. I can't blame them one iota for it. My cost per round at my national club is very high but only because I only go once or twice a year. The good news is though that it is very inexpensive for my guests, which is good, since it is expensive to get there.
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It doesn't seem to get discussed much on this board, but does anyone know how Prairie Club is doing with it's semi-private business model?
Matt, Brad does raise a good point. It seems like private clubs all need to figure out where they want to be on the exclusivity vs. outside revenue spectrum. I imagine it'd be very hard for clubs that are less than full to pass on the incremental income in order to protect the exclusivity that their members are willing to pay a premium for.
I agree with you, Jim. When you are club building the line was blurred and the blurr was not the goal, just the reality. I don't know what the ultimate reality will be! Pine Valley or Pebble Beach( probably not Pebble as there is only watching corn grow or shooting things other than golf, oops drinking etc.)
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No knowing ONE THING about BN's issues or back stories, I wonder if a viable solution given the location is to allow public play M-T-W and then limited and/or none as you move closer to the weekend? Would give the tourists/drive-by-ers a chance to play, get some increased revenue and marketing traffic, but it would still be (and feel) like a private on the weekend, when most Members presumably come for a few days and want to "own" their course?
Good luck to all, can't wait to see it one day.
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its a wierd thing .. because i joined pasatiempo years ago in part because the longstanding public-private model kept costs down for the member contingency ... and the public play really supported the bottom line ...and we are talking a decent, classic golf course .. invariably there are some complaints from the members .. but in the end most are quite happy with the mixed business model and it has proven to be financially durable ... we are surviving .. and parenthetically i belong to ballyliffin ...same basic model ...like many UK/Irish courses ...also sustaining itself ..
the point is .. the pub-priv model can be very acceptable to all ... and a few perks like preferred T-times ..etc ...smooth some of the rough member edges ..
it seems legit to argue that this is the best, most realistic operational model for all high end courses ... at this point in the economic cauldron we are experiencing ..
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its a wierd thing .. because i joined pasatiempo years ago in part because the longstanding public-private model kept costs down for the member contingency ... and the public play really supported the bottom line ...and we are talking a decent, classic golf course .. invariably there are some complaints from the members .. but in the end most are quite happy with the mixed business model and it has proven to be financially durable ... we are surviving .. and parenthetically i belong to ballyliffin ...same basic model ...like many UK/Irish courses ...also sustaining itself ..
the point is .. the pub-priv model can be very acceptable to all ... and a few perks like preferred T-times ..etc ...smooth some of the rough member edges ..
it seems legit to argue that this is the best, most realistic operational model for all high end courses ... at this point in the economic cauldron we are experiencing ..
Additionally the public/private model allows flexibility as to the split of times which I think gets honed and changed as required. It would seem Pasatiempo is a great example of a successful model.
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tim ... that is exactly correct .. over time modifications are made until you hit the perceived sweet spot with the members ...and/or you can adjust with flexibility to the economic environment when revenue becomes more of an issue ..
in that way its a pretty cool model .. like an "investment" ... diversification of the revenue stream is key ..
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its a wierd thing .. because i joined pasatiempo years ago in part because the longstanding public-private model kept costs down for the member contingency ... and the public play really supported the bottom line ...and we are talking a decent, classic golf course .. invariably there are some complaints from the members .. but in the end most are quite happy with the mixed business model and it has proven to be financially durable ... we are surviving .. and parenthetically i belong to ballyliffin ...same basic model ...like many UK/Irish courses ...also sustaining itself ..
the point is .. the pub-priv model can be very acceptable to all ... and a few perks like preferred T-times ..etc ...smooth some of the rough member edges ..
it seems legit to argue that this is the best, most realistic operational model for all high end courses ... at this point in the economic cauldron we are experiencing ..
Pasatiempo is the closest I've seen to what I consider a great model in the UK, high end privates (even Muirfield and Sunningdale!) that are happy to let the well-behaved non-member play at certain times. Everyone seems to be happy over there, and yes, the dues structure for members is well supported by the outsiders paying 125 quid to play.
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it's really funny ... but in the mid 90's when i joined pasa the annual dues was about $1000 .. now things have tightened up in part due to large capital intensive projects like the cart paths, sprinkler system, restoration, cart shack...etc ..in addition to the economy ..and declining golf popularity..
still attractive financially, tho ..
there is enough at these great courses for everybody .. they do not necessarily need to be "exclusive" ..
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Les,
You can function that way at Pasa because you are NOT a private club but are incorporated. There are huge ramifications for tax purposes between the two models. I agree that your model is great, but the privates do like to keep the unwashed at bay by insuring that they derive no more than 10% from outside sources. That 10% just isn't enough income to make a real difference.
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Pete .. True enough ... and a good distinction ... I am not conversant enough
on the business organization side to know what models would be feasible in this setting ..
could it be as siimple as a "public" entity offering special conditions for people who pay
annual dues and/or a membership fee ..?? Not sure..!
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Les,
Though I agree that the private/public model is attractive, I think Pasa is unique based on two things. 1) They have as much history as just about anyone around and 2) The "share" is a unique approach and is a large barrier to entry.
Even though 1K a yr is incredible for a club like Pasa, I've heard some stories about the dot boom price for a share being in the neighborhood of another mortgage.
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It doesn't seem to get discussed much on this board, but does anyone know how Prairie Club is doing with it's semi-private business model?
Matt, Brad does raise a good point. It seems like private clubs all need to figure out where they want to be on the exclusivity vs. outside revenue spectrum. I imagine it'd be very hard for clubs that are less than full to pass on the incremental income in order to protect the exclusivity that their members are willing to pay a premium for.
I am a member at Prairie Club. We are up to 275ish members. Guest rounds last season seemed to be up significantly. It seems that they have pricing power for guest rounds/lodging, the price has basically tripled since opening. I have heard different numbers of members targeted to build Old School. I believe it's still quite a way down the road.
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yes, ben .. the good 'ole days of high share prices ... and they were high .. no more ..!
getting back to bally ... and drawing on local experiences ..the private model has taken a huge hit ... and is gasping for air ... why then pursue it in an even more problematic and stressful geography like the Holyoke area .. ?? i was very surprised when i read in the thread that Bally had only 75 members .. just to be contrarian, perhaps the $5000/year dues for a "shorter" season is as much a barrier as a higher .. say $50k .... initiation fee ..
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It is amazing to me how many golfers I talk to in the Denver area have never heard of Ballyneal. I won't disagree with those who say that folks here are used to their recreational opportunities being west of town, but making a turn east isn't impossible, especially if the product is something to believe in. Knowing that the place exists is an important first step. Of course, I could be talking to golfers who are in the wrong economic echelon........
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Les, a serious question.
Why are you waging a war against proper grammar?
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Les, a serious question.
Why are you waging a war against proper grammar?
richard, don marquis wrote a book ... or was it a poem? ... about a cockroach named archie and his girlfriend mehitabel. archie couldn't hold down the shift key and a letter key at the same time, hence no capitalization. it was a big success.
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Les, a serious question.
Why are you waging a war against proper grammar?
broken shift key? ...stuck period key? ...
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Changing the debt, ownership or membership structure is relevant only if they can generate an operating profit, which no one seems to have focused on in this thread. Operating profit means that expenses (golf operations, personnel, cart expense, maintenance, utilities, taxes, insurance, cost of bar and restaurant, promotion and advertising, management overhead, legal, accounting, etc.) have to be exceeded by income (daily fees, dues, bar and restaurant income, event income, etc.) There must also be enough working capital to carry the operation, particularly important given the seasonality.
Operating profit is the primary calculation, and if you can't generate a profit consistently from operations in the short season they have, you aren't going to be viable. The new owners doubtless are trying to figure that one out. The "structure" or "model" will derive from those factors, and those factors alone.
I wish bonny good luck to all concerned.
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Les, a serious question.
Why are you waging a war against proper grammar?
what does it matter if he is typing phrases, etc?????
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Pete,
Glad to hear TPC is doing well. I plan on stopping in for a day to check it out and play a little golf during my visit to nebraska late this summer. I've heard fantastic things about the Dunes Course and to my luck it is the "Public" course on the day I'll be able to get up that way.
Kalen
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Les, a serious question.
Why are you waging a war against proper grammar?
what does it matter if he is typing phrases, etc?????
Paul,
It is rude and shows a lack of respect for your fellow GCA members to not at least capitalize when appropriate. I figure it might be a Blackberry thing because an iPhone does it automatically.
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John ... nothing disrespectful intended ... i will try to capitalize names in the future if it really bothers you that much or sends a negative message .. no problem ..
Richard .. i appreciate your reading my posts ...and reacting to them .. but i think it is better to let grammar issues on a golf web site die a natural death .. substance IMHO should trump form ...
les
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Les,
While not a big deal to me, I can see Richards point of view. It can be hard to build/gain credibility from others when the grammar is at elementary school level.
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Kalen .. if you feel strongly enough to post another reply ... and for the sake of consistency .. be sure to remind Richard to write in complete sentences ..
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It...is...hard...to...grasp...substance...when...rudimentary...grammar...rules...are...not...followed
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Oh man, the grammar police are back out. It is hard enough writing here knowing the DG is populated with authors, lawyers, and Ivy leaguers. I help my kids with math, science, and history, English is my wife’s subject and she is too busy to proof my stuff.
I'm toast if we're clamping down on grammar.
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Capitalization is the difference between helping your Uncle Jack off a horse and helping your uncle...
Back nearer the original topic - Doak's comments about Denver area members really makes a lot of sense. Having that as a natural market would seem to be an opportunity worth pursuing.
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I don't mind grammar errors. People make them all the time, including me.
What Les does is not an error. It is something he actively repeats over and over again. I am just wondering why...
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I love Ballyneal. I think is brilliantly routed and elegant in it's rustic setting. If I lived in Denver, however, I would go to the mountains. I'd buy a place where I could ski in the winter, hike in the fall and spring and play golf in the summer. Actually that is what I do now and I live in Maryland. I wonder how prevalent that attitude is.
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I think Tommy hits on a key point as there already is a lot of really good golf in the Denver area without "needing" to drive 3 hrs out to Ballyneal.
Sure maybe us GCA'ers put a premium on playing that good of a course, and it "only" being 3 hrs from a major metropolitan area is nice, but with the other high end privates in the area, I would suspect the vast majority don't see it that way. Maybe it really isn't the Denver market it needs to tap into, but the National Club market.
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I think Tommy hits on a key point as there already is a lot of really good golf in the Denver area without "needing" to drive 3 hrs out to Ballyneal.
Sure maybe us GCA'ers put a premium on playing that good of a course, and it "only" being 3 hrs from a major metropolitan area is nice, but with the other high end privates in the area, I would suspect the vast majority don't see it that way. Maybe it really isn't the Denver market it needs to tap into, but the National Club market.
If you don't expect someone from Denver to drive 3 hours to play Ballyneal why would you expect someone from Los Angeles, Chicago or New York to take a whole day to get out to Ballyneal?
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The vast majority aren't needed, just a (good) bit more than what they have. It would be wrong to overlook any potential sources, Denver or national.
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I think Tommy hits on a key point as there already is a lot of really good golf in the Denver area without "needing" to drive 3 hrs out to Ballyneal.
Sure maybe us GCA'ers put a premium on playing that good of a course, and it "only" being 3 hrs from a major metropolitan area is nice, but with the other high end privates in the area, I would suspect the vast majority don't see it that way. Maybe it really isn't the Denver market it needs to tap into, but the National Club market.
If you don't expect someone from Denver to drive 3 hours to play Ballyneal why would you expect someone from Los Angeles, Chicago or New York to take a whole day to get out to Ballyneal?
Because I would think there is at least a dozen or so people from every major metropolis area who appreciates fine GCA enough to be willing to spring for a membership, especially at the now cheaper rates...and that includes Denver. So while 8-12 people from Denver isn't enough to keep the place afloat....8-12 people from the 25 largest metro areas would be enough.
In reality, we know the numbers won't work out that evenly, so I'm really only trying to point out that I don't think there would be 200-250 people from Denver willing to do this. So the club needs to think nationally to make it work, IMO.
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I think Tommy hits on a key point as there already is a lot of really good golf in the Denver area without "needing" to drive 3 hrs out to Ballyneal.
Sure maybe us GCA'ers put a premium on playing that good of a course, and it "only" being 3 hrs from a major metropolitan area is nice, but with the other high end privates in the area, I would suspect the vast majority don't see it that way. Maybe it really isn't the Denver market it needs to tap into, but the National Club market.
Kalen:
I have to disagree here.
Certainly, there are some good courses in Denver proper -- though not all that many great ones, and nothing with remotely the same sort of character as Ballyneal.
The "National Club market" you describe is dog-eat-dog right now. There are dozens such courses vying for the same few potential members. And even some local clubs are starting to create national membership categories to subsidize their business -- Stonewall and Saucon Valley are two that I know of which have done this in the past year. Then, there are deals like the Outpost Club, taking potential national members off the top and promising them access to multiple courses -- including many of the clubs trying to sell national memberships.
For someone in San Francisco or Seattle or Kansas City, Ballyneal is no more accessible than Rock Creek or Gozzer Ranch [or Bandon or Cabo]. But for someone from Denver, it is uniquely accessible. Essentially, if they just sucked up a majority of the people in Denver who were in the market for a national club, that would be a good foundation.
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At GolfClubAtlas.com, there's a long tradition of using proper grammar in one's posts.
How valuable are traveling golfers who can afford a second membership, and have the time and motivation to travel to that club year after year? How large is this group, and how many have already made their financial and emotional commitments? How much influence does this group have on other like-minded luxury golfers? Finally, on average, how many years does the typical traveling golfer have the time, money and motivation to keep returning?
Finally, I disagree with Chris Johnston and Tom Doak, among others, and believe that Ballyneal and Dismal River are competing for members.
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Again, not knowing the details of the Denver private market, I find it hard to believe there's anything on the quality/$$ scale available as good as Ballyneal 2.0. There's gotta be 50 guys in Denver who would rather have 1/2 the rounds on a course that's twice as good for 1/2 the price of what's available locally...
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Les, a serious question.
Why are you waging a war against proper grammar?
So typical that a UM grad would not use proper grammar when criticizing someone else's.
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The accolades for the golf course itself as well as one Tom Doak declaring it one of his best has me scratching my head as to how location is not the biggest part of the problem. There are any number of more populated areas where Ballyneal absolutely thrives. And it thrives regardless of the model because it is that good.
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Tom,
I really hope you are right, because I would hate to see a place like Ballyneal fail in the long run and dare I say become NLE. I also really hope the updated pricing structure is able to attract 50-100 guys from Denver.
But as The Threadkiller suspects I too think Dismal and Ballyneal are both competing for the same people more or less, which I have to believe is mostly, (more than 50%), national members.
P.S. While I agree with you assessment of RCCC, I'd have to think Gozzer is in a slightly different category as its only 45 minutes door-to-door with a major airport in Spokane. Wine Valley, which is a Doak 8 in my book, is a 3 hours drive from me in Spokane, but on average I only get down there once per year.
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I agree with John Kirk on this one. As the clubs are currently constituted, Ballyneal and Dismal River are competitors. There are a limited number of prospective national members and both of these clubs offer the Nebrasaka/Colorado sand hill experience. They don't work together and each would gladly welcome a member from the other.
However, I also believe that they don't have to be - in fact, they are both so out of the way, they shouldn't be. If there was a cooperative arrangement between the two clubs, each could drive revenue to the other. I have to believe that if given the opportunity, a person flying into Denver would love to stay and play a day at Ballyneal on the way to Dismal River. Likewise, if you were at Ballyneal, I don't know why you would not make the drive for a stay and play at Dismal River. Kind of like a sandhills golf trail on the private side. It certainly brings more value to the members.
In addition, anyway you slice it, Denver is going to be the primary market for memberships. However, Denver is unique due to its hub airport. There are pretty cheap flights to Chicago, LA and Dallas - which could easily be "secondary" markets.
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At GolfClubAtlas.com, there's a long tradition of using proper grammar in one's posts.
How valuable are traveling golfers who can afford a second membership, and have the time and motivation to travel to that club year after year? How large is this group, and how many have already made their financial and emotional commitments? How much influence does this group have on other like-minded luxury golfers? Finally, on average, how many years does the typical traveling golfer have the time, money and motivation to keep returning?
Finally, I disagree with Chris Johnston and Tom Doak, among others, and believe that Ballyneal and Dismal River are competing for members.
Both clubs are equal distance from Kansas City (515 miles) and you would never fly to either one of them. Too much hassle factor in the end vs. the straight drive.
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I 'third' the notion that the top national destination clubs are, to some extent, in competition for the same members. I live in New Jersey and have been shopping for a membership for the past few years. In my case, Ballyneal and Dismal River are both highly appealing, and so is a club like Hidden Creek which is a 2.5 hour drive but far enough that I would qualify as 'national'. While it is hard to justify any national golf membership on pure economic terms, the social benefits of 'being a member' are very important to me, and I will ultimately pull the trigger. I would also note that in the Denver market, Colorado Golf Club must be compelling to many of the GCA folk who would find Ballyneal attractive...dues for local membership would certainly be higher, but it's obviously a far easier drive.
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I 'third' the notion that the top national destination clubs are, to some extent, in competition for the same members. I live in New Jersey and have been shopping for a membership for the past few years. In my case, Ballyneal and Dismal River are both highly appealing, and so is a club like Hidden Creek which is a 2.5 hour drive but far enough that I would qualify as 'national'. While it is hard to justify any national golf membership on pure economic terms, the social benefits of 'being a member' are very important to me, and I will ultimately pull the trigger. I would also note that in the Denver market, Colorado Golf Club must be compelling to many of the GCA folk who would find Ballyneal attractive...dues for local membership would certainly be higher, but it's obviously a far easier drive.
Keith,
What are the social benefits of being a member? What does that mean?
Brian
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For me, being a member brings a sense of 'belonging' - I was a member of Loch Lomond for a decade and really felt at home whenever I would drive through those gates - I got to know the staff and some of the members and still savor those memories. in this economy, one can certainly arrange a trip or two every year to fine destinations that are public (i.e. Bandon) or even private (certain national clubs can be played periodically by non-members) - the golf will be great, the experience memorable, but for me it wouldn't be the same as being 'a member'.
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For me, being a member brings a sense of 'belonging' - I was a member of Loch Lomond for a decade and really felt at home whenever I would drive through those gates - I got to know the staff and some of the members and still savor those memories. in this economy, one can certainly arrange a trip or two every year to fine destinations that are public (i.e. Bandon) or even private (certain national clubs can be played periodically by non-members) - the golf will be great, the experience memorable, but for me it wouldn't be the same as being 'a member'.
Got it, and agreed.
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Give Chris and his guys a minority position in BN, merge the two clubs to create a dual site club that could eventually have perhaps 108 holes? Could be come the model for a new type of National Club. Have some form of transport option back and forth between the two.. and voila. A can't miss club.
Call me nuts but I think there is something there.
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This is a bit of a circular argument that smacks of deja-vu. But for the price of 1 or 2 trips to Bandon you can be "a member". Yes it's a commitment to make several trips to the same world-class golf club each year. When some of us find the perfect gal, we close the deal and get a ring on her finger. Others still prefer the one night stand. Kind of sad once you get past a certain age, but to each his own...
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Well said, Keith.
I personally am not interested in belonging to a place no matter how good the course is unless I am truly comfortable with the club. I can visit great golf courses and enjoy them as a visitor without making the emotional investment to be a member.
When it comes to investing that emotion in belonging to a club, I am only interested in one that has members that are interesting, entertaining and share my same passions for the game. One where you always feel at home when you visit. Where you don't feel like a customer, but more like a steward of something important to your member friends. You should feel accountable for the club's success and work hard toward that and not just tickled to death about what a good deal you got when you joined.
To belong to a club like I just described that also happens to have a great golf course is the sweet spot. Doesn't happen often and it isn't because of the golf course. Think about the clubs you know that even in this day and age have a waiting list. It is not always about how good the course is, but usually how good the club is. All you have to do is read all the postings on this site about this great course and that great course where you can join for a song. I have left situations where the golf course was awesome, but the club was not to my liking. Do I miss the course? Sure. But not enough to hang around wasting my golfing time.
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Daryl,
You bring up a valid point, a club is it's membership. However, I'd say as far as pricing vs. course quality it has a hell of a lot more to do with location than culture in most instances...
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Greg's idea is such a well duh!!!...it makes you wonder why somebody hasnt already done this.
Those who have met Greg realise this guy is no normal club pro...his knowledge and know how of the golf business go well beyond the restrictions of most club pros...I like his idea and believe if one could get the right people across the right table this could be a huge merger that would benefit everybody involved..
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Greg's idea is such a well duh!!!...it makes you wonder why somebody hasn't already done this.
The problem is reconciling the egos.
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I somehow do not see anyone going for that in either membership. They are different places.
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All
As posted several times before and following the Sand Hills template, the beauty of the national destination model is it need not be expensive, but it has to be good. Most members visit only 2-3 times per season and the sense of belonging to something special is important. No matter the club, don't underestimate sense of place, and belonging. If you are considering joining one, I'm happy if you choose any of the options, so I don't see anyone else as competition. Each is different and one may simply fit you better than another for a number of reasons. The people who choose Dismal (including a handful of guys here) love it, and I suspect it will be the same with Ballyneal if they do things right. Based on activity at Dismal, I believe there is plenty of interest in all of the clubs.
Greg T - Yoiu are indeed wise. We would welcome the opportunity to work with Ballyneal as I can see real benefit for both clubs, and together there would be some real operational efficiencies. I agree with you that the clubs being aligned would be something very special, and unique, in the world of golf. Having access to both cool places under one membership would probably appeal to an even more broad base, especillay if the cost to join was very resonable. And, the existing members would be free to play either, or both, as they see fit.
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This is a bit of a circular argument that smacks of deja-vu. But for the price of 1 or 2 trips to Bandon you can be "a member". Yes it's a commitment to make several trips to the same world-class golf club each year. When some of us find the perfect gal, we close the deal and get a ring on her finger. Others still prefer the one night stand. Kind of sad once you get past a certain age, but to each his own...
You win the "tortured metaphor of the day" award for that.
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All
As posted several times before and following the Sand Hills template, the beauty of the national destination model is it need not be expensive, but it has to be good. Most members visit only 2-3 times per season and the sense of belonging to something special is important. No matter the club, don't underestimate sense of place, and belonging. If you are considering joining one, I'm happy if you choose any of the options, so I don't see anyone else as competition. Each is different and one may simply fit you better than another for a number of reasons. The people who choose Dismal (including a handful of guys here) love it, and I suspect it will be the same with Ballyneal if they do things right. Based on activity at Dismal, I believe there is plenty of interest in all of the clubs.
Greg T - Yoiu are indeed wise. We would welcome the opportunity to work with Ballyneal as I can see real benefit for both clubs, and together there would be some real operational efficiencies. I agree with you that the clubs being aligned would be something very special, and unique, in the world of golf. Having access to both cool places under one membership would probably appeal to an even more broad base, especillay if the cost to join was very resonable. And, the existing members would be free to play either, or both, as they see fit.
Take it a step further (after this I wish to be compenstaed ;) ). As Tom is designing a course alongside his Jack's at Dismal, in fairness, allow Jack to design the second alongside Tom's at BN. Given Jack has some stake in Dismal and thus the new merged club of course his fee would be "on the cheap" and appealing to Curlander's group.
Somebody make a phone call.
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All
As posted several times before and following the Sand Hills template, the beauty of the national destination model is it need not be expensive, but it has to be good.
Chris:
I think you touched on a worthy talking point. That is, did Ballyneal and Dismal actually follow the Sand Hills template. From a type of course built perspective, I'd say yes. If its a question of the economics, I don't think they did.
My guess is that Ballyneal was built for something in the neighborhood of 8 to 10 million, if not more. I've heard a number north of 30 million for Dismal (not including the new course). Based on what I know of the modest infrastructure at Sand Hills, i can't imagine it was built for anything approaching those numbers.
Sand Hills also came first, and to great acclaim. It was probably an easy sell for them to reach their quota of members, those needed to sustain the enterprise. DR and BN were the late-comers to the party. As evidenced by the comments discussing the rush to get BN open before DR, at some point there was competition to attract new members. Add in the fact that the idea of a destination club in the middle of the country was still a novel idea, and its not hard to see that the pool of prospective members was not very well stocked. Throw in the economic events that took place in 2007 and that pool becomes even smaller.
So both clubs were left with a quota that was probably a bit higher than the number Sand Hills needed to keep the lights on with a shrinking pool of potential members. It doesn't surprise me that they both struggled, to break even they probably had to double or triple the revenue of the template setter.
Sven
PS - The Dismal figure I quoted above is a number that stuck in my head from past discussions, it may be off. I didn't think you'd care too much about throwing it out there, as it pertains to the original ownership and not any costs incurred under your tenure.
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Add in the fact that the idea of a destination club in the middle of the country was still a novel idea, and its not hard to see that the pool of prospective members was not very well stocked.
Does Prairie Dunes fit this equation? It's been around for a while.
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This is a bit of a circular argument that smacks of deja-vu. But for the price of 1 or 2 trips to Bandon you can be "a member". Yes it's a commitment to make several trips to the same world-class golf club each year. When some of us find the perfect gal, we close the deal and get a ring on her finger. Others still prefer the one night stand. Kind of sad once you get past a certain age, but to each his own...
Does Kingsley know you're cheating on her with your Bandon trips?
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Give Chris and his guys a minority position in BN, merge the two clubs to create a dual site club that could eventually have perhaps 108 holes? Could be come the model for a new type of National Club. Have some form of transport option back and forth between the two.. and voila. A can't miss club.
Call me nuts but I think there is something there.
Greg,
At present, these courses host a few thousand rounds per year. New golf courses are expensive to build and maintain, and I would argue they are an unnecessary expense. In the case of Ballyneal, the existing course is very special, and I see no need to expand the golfing facilities unless rounds per year exceeded 15-20k.
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Give Chris and his guys a minority position in BN, merge the two clubs to create a dual site club that could eventually have perhaps 108 holes? Could be come the model for a new type of National Club. Have some form of transport option back and forth between the two.. and voila. A can't miss club.
Call me nuts but I think there is something there.
Greg,
At present, these courses host a few thousand rounds per year. New golf courses are expensive to build and maintain, and I would argue they are an unnecessary expense. In the case of Ballyneal, the existing course is very special, and I see no need to expand the golfing facilities unless rounds per year exceeded 15-20k.
John, I am one who believes that that think inside the box during times such as these are almost certainly headed for failure.
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OK, Greg, I'll bite. What makes "times such as these" different?
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Add in the fact that the idea of a destination club in the middle of the country was still a novel idea, and its not hard to see that the pool of prospective members was not very well stocked.
Does Prairie Dunes fit this equation? It's been around for a while.
Don't know for sure, but I'd bet you get a bit more of the day visit type of golfer/member at PD than you do at the other courses.
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OK, Greg, I'll bite. What makes "times such as these" different?
Honestly?
Sour economy
Golf course shrinkage (it was cold!)
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Way to keep it light and happy. I appreciate that.
Compared to the typical GCA member, I have a rather dismal view of future golf economics, and though I am not involved in the golf business, I would recommend proceeding with caution. The big difference between you and me is how we perceive today's sour economy. Maybe I'm your basic conservative liberal.
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This is a bit of a circular argument that smacks of deja-vu. But for the price of 1 or 2 trips to Bandon you can be "a member". Yes it's a commitment to make several trips to the same world-class golf club each year. When some of us find the perfect gal, we close the deal and get a ring on her finger. Others still prefer the one night stand. Kind of sad once you get past a certain age, but to each his own...
Does Kingsley know you're cheating on her with your Bandon trips?
He should be ashamed of himself.
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Prairie Dunes is different because there is a large local membership and no debt. That being said, PD relies very heavily on the 150 national members it has to stay in the black, both in dues and mor importantly, the dollars that are spent there by the national members and their guests.
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Way to keep it light and happy. I appreciate that.
Compared to the typical GCA member, I have a rather dismal view of future golf economics, and though I am not involved in the golf business, I would recommend proceeding with caution. The big difference between you and me is how we perceive today's sour economy. Maybe I'm your basic conservative liberal.
I am in the golf, resort and development business... trust me, the economy is like year old milk.
Perhaps it's just Mexico?
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We are in danger of changing the course of this thread, which was solid today. Let's leave it there.
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Thread killer!
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Greg - I agree with you here too. That's why "value" and "fun" are critical elements.
Sven, you aren't far off. Luckily, we have very little debt.
All - To Greg's idea...I'm curious...how many of you would be interested in a combined Ballyneal and Dismal? If costs are reasonable, is this an interesting concept?
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Greg - I agree with you here too. That's why "value" and "fun" are critical elements.
Sven, you aren't far off. Luckily, we have very little debt.
All - To Greg's idea...I'm curious...how many of you would be interested in a combined Ballyneal and Dismal? If costs are reasonable, is this an interesting concept?
Chris,
It's hard for me to see why merging would help. They're hours apart.
Are you assuming more members would be attracted to both? (thus upping the total # of dues payers)
or are you assuming members would pay more for access to both.
Hard to see many efficiencies-hard to share a super,pro,or manager hours apart, or even equipment for that matter.
certainly staff could be rotated for events, but it would seem that both places would need to be pretty booked during peak season to do well
.Can you help me to understand?
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Most members visit only 2-3 times per season and the sense of belonging to something special is important.
I know some national members who get 50+ rounds per year in at their "away" club (I'm not talking about old fat hacks like me)...granted not your average national member, but they do exist. The value/quality proposition at some of these clubs for the truly obsessed is simply phenomenal....get it while the getting's good boys. It wasn't that long ago when I would have been thrilled to have one-off access to some of the best courses in the world. Now you can join for a f*$%ing song! Step up!
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I know some national members who get 50+ rounds per year in at their "away" club.....
How does marriage and something like this work? ???
I see the cost of these national clubs and I so desperately want to join. But knowing how many rounds I'd be able to play, I simply can't make it pencil on any rational basis. And my family can't afford for me to be irrational about this sort of thing.
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Joe,
Add in travel, food and lodging costs and it gets worse. And those costs get worse the more you go as your per round cost goes down.
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CJ, can you bring back the Cessna and run a daily shuttle back and forth? Then maybe you got something.
There might be some value for a prospective member, but from a Ballyneal member perspective, I'm not seeing a significant benefit. I think JaKa said the same thing from his perspective the last time this was brought up.
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CJ, can you bring back the Cessna and run a daily shuttle back and forth? Then maybe you got something.
There might be some value for a prospective member, but from a Ballyneal member perspective, I'm not seeing a significant benefit. I think JaKa said the same thing from his perspective the last time this was brought up.
What is teh drive time between locations?
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3 1/2 hours?
Chris, talk to the proprietor of your other club and I bet the interest would go through the roof!
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3 1/2 hours?
Chris, talk to the proprietor of your other club and I bet the interest would go through the roof!
No Cessna necessary. Just comfortable transport manned by club staff.
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We would welcome the opportunity to work with Ballyneal as I can see real benefit for both clubs, and together there would be some real operational efficiencies.
Chris,
On a local level here, in Philadelphia, I've never quite figured out how the notion of operational efficientcies actually plays out in real life. Can you share your thoughts, as an operator, where these savings come from?
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Jim,
I'm guessing in administrative costs.
1 accountant, 1 lawyer, 1 COO, 1 vendor list, 1 purchaser, etc.
As for the idea of these two joining, it sounds terrific on paper. I don't know how feasible it would be in reality, but the prospect of playing 4 days in the Sand sounds awesome. It would be relatively easy to get in 6-7 rounds over 4 days including drive time.
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I love Ballyneal. I think is brilliantly routed and elegant in it's rustic setting. If I lived in Denver, however, I would go to the mountains. I'd buy a place where I could ski in the winter, hike in the fall and spring and play golf in the summer. Actually that is what I do now and I live in Maryland. I wonder how prevalent that attitude is.
Most of the guys that belong to Ballyneal really value the way that the course plays and what a terrific job Dave Hensley does to deliver an incredibly firm and fast surface. People have many attractive places to play good golf in Denver and in the resort areas west of Denver. However, for those who truly love playing links golf, and hitting links golf shots, there are only a handful of places in America to play that offer the kind of surface on offer at Ballyneal. There are even fewer places where you can play true links golf in terrific weather as opposed to bundled up in rain gear!
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Thanks guys, this thread has really improved over the last 2-3 pages of posts.
I was trying to consider, in practical terms, what traveling 3 hours to my golf course/home club would really be like for me, and for friends of mine that are passionate about golf, and have families, etc
Traveling from a big city such as Denver, I imagine would also have its issues, if you are on the wrong side of town travel time would be even more, and why would I want to join Ballyneal, when I can play at CGC, a relly good quality club (?), and then my family all love(and so do I) the lure of the mountains and all the leisure and activity that they offer. (my one trip to BN we got a little lost on the way)
In the end, I think the distractions of our 'normal lives' may reduce the frequency, and then they may also be at the expense of other trips to other annual trips and the like, and in the long run, I think the 3 hour hike would be too far for even the general GCA enthusaists - of course, there will be the 20-50 who for them, it is bliss, but there is a risk that these guys are already part of the 75 existing(?)
What I really do think would be a winner, - and it certainly sounds like it meets Chris' mantra for DR, and also syncs in with Greg's suggestion, and am sure it has been discussed here before - is if all these Denverites are experience and adventure seekers, fun loving outdoor orientated leisure customers, then that will be the model that a successful BN will embrace, a 2-4 day golf experience, 1, 2 or 3 times per year. They are almost a National type member, but without the upfront joining fee, where they go and blow a bunch of money with their golfing buddies, and drive home with big cheesy grins on their faces. This was my 4 day experience with friends in 2010, our experience at BN (with Jim and th Yucca crew) and then at SH - not only rivaled, but probably the bettered the following 4 days at Bandon, and I think we generally thought we had far greater bang for our buck in Colorado and Nebraska than we did in Oregon. Unfortunately, we were unable to squeeze in visits to Dismal or TPC, but this region has the potential to rival the other destination places, not as members only, but as the experience of welcoming return guests once or twice a year, to be made to feel at home. (Regular visitors to Barnbougle Dunes in Tassie, find this experience, greeted and welcomed back every time, as if you were a member. )
The only negative, was the driving, while tired and sunburnt (&hungover), long distances, this could easily be addressed with small coach/bus transfer - think UK golf tour little trucks with a couple of tables for cards, some eskies(coolers), TV, etc
Not enough locals to make survival from private local members only, but would be tons of experience seeking golfers from that same market that could justify blowing $2,000 on a long 4 day weekend, but not $10k upfront and $5k annuals, plus spending money.
Now that really is my two cents, as I have only been there once.
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Jeff and Jim,
In addition to Kalen's comments, I would think the one thing that is most elusive and always in short supply for both these clubs is leads, i.e. golfers that are potential customers.
By linking the two, you guarantee to pick up everyone that plays at the other, effectively probably adding a third extra revenue without any outlay. Resourced and managed from one central system/person.
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I love Ballyneal. I think is brilliantly routed and elegant in it's rustic setting. If I lived in Denver, however, I would go to the mountains. I'd buy a place where I could ski in the winter, hike in the fall and spring and play golf in the summer. Actually that is what I do now and I live in Maryland. I wonder how prevalent that attitude is.
Tommy,
Funny, we live in the mountains, between Silverthorne and Steamboat, I make the drive to The Prairie Club about twice a month.
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Greg - I agree with you here too. That's why "value" and "fun" are critical elements.
Sven, you aren't far off. Luckily, we have very little debt.
All - To Greg's idea...I'm curious...how many of you would be interested in a combined Ballyneal and Dismal? If costs are reasonable, is this an interesting concept?
Chris,
It's hard for me to see why merging would help. They're hours apart.
Are you assuming more members would be attracted to both? (thus upping the total # of dues payers)
or are you assuming members would pay more for access to both.
Hard to see many efficiencies-hard to share a super,pro,or manager hours apart, or even equipment for that matter.
certainly staff could be rotated for events, but it would seem that both places would need to be pretty booked during peak season to do well
.Can you help me to understand?
Jeff, Jim, Kalen, Brett, off the top of my head, efficiencies would be in non daily equipment (aerators, etc), procurement, and back office. Heck, you could have one Executive Chef planning menus for both. Accounting, IT, and reservations could probably be rolled up in one place. Both clubs have to have full staffs stand alone. Believe me, these days, $300,000 matters.
The distance between the club isn't a problem from and Ops standpoint. We are used to long distances out this way. Many people like to play a mix of PC, Sand Hills, Dismal, Awarii, Wild Horse, and Ballyneal anyway.
wrt existing members, I agree they would all probably favor their original club. Having another cool place is icing on the cake and events could be held to build bridges. With DR, BN might even remain walking only. Colton could play Ballyneal and Kavanaugh could play at Dismal if that is what they wanted. THe organization just wants people to have fun.
wrt new members, the cost to join wouldn't have to be any higher than for each individually. Same with dues as BN's are still above what I would charge. You would have to have more members overall and the individual "vibe" would be very important.
There are alot of members and guests who play both places and the question would be would more people be interested in both? If only 20% extended a visit by a day, that matters too.
I don't have all the answers, but agree with Greg it would be interesting to visit and discuss. Sometimes consolidation and critical mass is a good thing.
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Matt,
The golf course is so great.
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I somehow do not see anyone going for that in either membership. They are different places.
Please explain how they are different places. I am all for whatever Chris thinks is best for the club. If I were a member at Ballyneal I would be staying and playing with my seven guests on an upcoming trip as opposed to Bayside as I currently have planned. I estimate that in green fees and lodging I would provide Ballyneal with around $5,000 per year in revenue. Sound like a win/win.
Funny thing is, even if I never play Ballyneal again, I will gladly host any past, current or future member of Ballyneal at any time. I can assure you that no individual membership has shown me the kindness that the original members of Ballyneal have in the past. I will forever be in their debt.
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Matt,
The golf course is so great.
John:
I agree. I just think how the course plays due to the way the fescue is maintained is all too often overlooked.
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TK - nice post.
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I can assure you that no individual membership has shown me the kindness that the original members of Ballyneal have in the past. I will forever be in their debt.
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I couldn't agree more.
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wrt new members, the cost to join wouldn't have to be any higher than for each individually. Same with dues as BN's are still above what I would charge. You would have to have more members overall and the individual "vibe" would be very important.
Do you mean members would pay, say, BN's fees or DR's fees, but not both? i.e. if BN charges 10k and DR charges 5k (I'm making these up for the example), would the combined club charge 15k?
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I'm finding this thread very interesting as it progresses. Thanks for the great info from all involved.
Ballyneal was one of my favorite PLACES I have ever visited. I absolutely loved the golf course and wish I could play it every day. I probably played the course in the worse conditions possible, 3 days of rain and cold in the middle of July, but I still loved it. I can only imagine how much fun it is in the intended conditions.
That being said, what I truly loved about the place was the atmosphere. Hanging out in the bar between rounds and after, the bocce ball area, the lodging, the way you were treated by everyone, the laid back atmosphere, no dress code, total comfort. At no point you walked around on egg shells hoping not to offend anyone. ALL members were extremely friendly. None of this is new to anyone here, but it's what makes this place so amazing.
I've never visited Dismal, but I get the impression it is very close if not the same there.
I would love to see BN become a semi-private or public resort for my own selfish purposes. I make a decent living running my own business, but joining one of these clubs even at the reduced price is out of the question for me. Having the option to visit every couple of years would be ideal.
Unfortunately for me, I think the public/semi-private model would take away from all that I loved about Ballyneal. If it was packed full of people or filled with a bunch of random people it might feel like any other resort. How could the staff get to know everyone? How could relationships be formed? The public model would change it for the worse, IMHO.
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It boggles the mind that noone bats an eyelash at the per round cost of a home club and then as soon as the national membership comes up guys come out of the woodwork bitching about the per round cost, when in fact you often get significantly better golf at a lower per round cost than at many of the home clubs. I guess it's easier to justify 20k to the wife when she can take the kids to the pool than 5k for guy's trips, especially when you don't wear the pants in the family 8). Here's the secret guys, get the wife and kids to play and the national membership becomes a win, win, win...
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Here's the secret guys, get the wife and kids to play and the national membership becomes a win, win, win...
Jud,
Couldn't agree more with that. Both my wife and 15 year old son play and a national membership has definately been a win, win, win. Helps that we can hop in the car and be there in a little over two hours, but a big win none the less. I've just needed to now accept that I'm the third best golfer in my house...
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Jim - Having not seen any numbers, I would guess the initial join fee would be in the $10,000 range, one price for both. Dues lower than BN today, probably at $3,600/year.
Jud - you are right on! I took my son to Sand Hills beginning at age 9. We would spend close to a week and it was a wonderful time as a dad. Over time, Ian started by playing close to the greens, then moved to the 150 yard marker, then playd from my drive, then played the entire hole. One of the highlights was a hole in 1 on #3 from the forward tees. ALways took other guys but Ian was the reason.
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Here's a simple idea that would add value to members of both clubs. And I think it would give each club incremental revenue as it would drive more memberships and guest play for each.
Ballyneal gives Dismal members and their guests 200-300 free rounds/days per year.
Dismal gives Ballyneal members and their guests 200-300 free rounds/days per year.
Obviously, the 200-300 number could be tweaked. And restrictions would have to be added (ex: each member could visit the other only 1x a year, Sun-Thu only, etc.).
Having quasi membership access to a 2nd amazing club would be very appealing to many.
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Morgan,
I believe the members of both clubs are happy to pay to play. It is a sad reality that somebody gotta pay.
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It boggles the mind that noone bats an eyelash at the per round cost of a home club and then as soon as the national membership comes up guys come out of the woodwork bitching about the per round cost, when in fact you often get significantly better golf at a lower per round cost than at many of the home clubs. I guess it's easier to justify 20k to the wife when she can take the kids to the pool than 5k for guy's trips, especially when you don't wear the pants in the family 8). Here's the secret guys, get the wife and kids to play and the national membership becomes a win, win, win...
Or just promise a trip to Cabo each year as well. By the way, who owes who?
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Let's go for Dismal owning Bally
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Here's a simple idea that would add value to members of both clubs. And I think it would give each club incremental revenue as it would drive more memberships and guest play for each.
Ballyneal gives Dismal members and their guests 200-300 free rounds/days per year.
Dismal gives Ballyneal members and their guests 200-300 free rounds/days per year.
Obviously, the 200-300 number could be tweaked. And restrictions would have to be added (ex: each member could visit the other only 1x a year, Sun-Thu only, etc.).
Having quasi membership access to a 2nd amazing club would be very appealing to many.
From a marketing perspective I believe folding them into a single club would be far more powerful/appealing than promoting "access".
Either way this seems like the perfect case study for such a union.
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It boggles the mind that noone bats an eyelash at the per round cost of a home club and then as soon as the national membership comes up guys come out of the woodwork bitching about the per round cost, when in fact you often get significantly better golf at a lower per round cost than at many of the home clubs. I guess it's easier to justify 20k to the wife when she can take the kids to the pool than 5k for guy's trips, especially when you don't wear the pants in the family 8). Here's the secret guys, get the wife and kids to play and the national membership becomes a win, win, win...
That sounds great in theory, but I just don't think the math works, even if the Sand Hills didn't have a really short golfing season that overlaps entirely with the season in the rest of the northern part of the country. (Unless you're claiming that it costs $20,000/year to belong to a local country club, which strikes me as incredibly high.) Here in DC, we can play about 9 months/year, and I'd say dues average $500-$600/month, so let's be conservative and assume an annual expense of $8,000/year. If you play just once a week during the nine-month season, that's $222/round. [$8,000/36]. If you're paying $5,000/year in the Sand Hills, you'd have to play 23 rounds to have the numbers even out -- and that's assuming zero cost of travel or lodging.
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It boggles the mind that noone bats an eyelash at the per round cost of a home club and then as soon as the national membership comes up guys come out of the woodwork bitching about the per round cost, when in fact you often get significantly better golf at a lower per round cost than at many of the home clubs. I guess it's easier to justify 20k to the wife when she can take the kids to the pool than 5k for guy's trips, especially when you don't wear the pants in the family 8). Here's the secret guys, get the wife and kids to play and the national membership becomes a win, win, win...
That sounds great in theory, but I just don't think the math works, even if the Sand Hills didn't have a really short golfing season that overlaps entirely with the season in the rest of the northern part of the country. (Unless you're claiming that it costs $20,000/year to belong to a local country club, which strikes me as incredibly high.) Here in DC, we can play about 9 months/year, and I'd say dues average $500-$600/month, so let's be conservative and assume an annual expense of $8,000/year. If you play just once a week during the nine-month season, that's $222/round. [$8,000/36]. If you're paying $5,000/year in the Sand Hills, you'd have to play 23 rounds to have the numbers even out -- and that's assuming zero cost of travel or lodging.
Those intent on "penciling the numbers" on a membership will most likely be public golfers forever. Not that this is a bad thing.
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Or just promise a trip to Cabo each year as well. By the way, who owes who?
I had Tom and Gil at 3-1.
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Or just promise a trip to Cabo each year as well. By the way, who owes who?
I had Tom and Gil at 3-1.
Damn, could not remember if Gil was part of the deal or not. Round of golf on Ocean or a dinner at Nick-San on me.
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It boggles the mind that noone bats an eyelash at the per round cost of a home club and then as soon as the national membership comes up guys come out of the woodwork bitching about the per round cost, when in fact you often get significantly better golf at a lower per round cost than at many of the home clubs. I guess it's easier to justify 20k to the wife when she can take the kids to the pool than 5k for guy's trips, especially when you don't wear the pants in the family 8). Here's the secret guys, get the wife and kids to play and the national membership becomes a win, win, win...
That sounds great in theory, but I just don't think the math works, even if the Sand Hills didn't have a really short golfing season that overlaps entirely with the season in the rest of the northern part of the country. (Unless you're claiming that it costs $20,000/year to belong to a local country club, which strikes me as incredibly high.) Here in DC, we can play about 9 months/year, and I'd say dues average $500-$600/month, so let's be conservative and assume an annual expense of $8,000/year. If you play just once a week during the nine-month season, that's $222/round. [$8,000/36]. If you're paying $5,000/year in the Sand Hills, you'd have to play 23 rounds to have the numbers even out -- and that's assuming zero cost of travel or lodging.
Carl,
Couple of points:
1. Try joining a club in NY, Chicago or LA for 5k dues per year, not to mention a significantly higher downstroke.
2. I assume these local clubs you're talking about aren't all Doak 8's and 9's.
3. 23 rounds is only 2 trips for the GCA fanatic crowd. If 1 or more other family members plays and/or if the club in question is within driving distance, it's a layup.
4. In my case, my wife and son both play and there's probably only 2 clubs in my hometown with golf as good or better than my national club, although both have inferior playing surfaces. Not to mention the fact that neither would have me and they're probably 3x the price for dues and a much higher multiple for the downstroke.
5. Not everything in life is about dollars and cents. I assume you don't shop exclusively at the Dollar store or aspire to being the next Hetty Green... ;)
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It boggles the mind that noone bats an eyelash at the per round cost of a home club and then as soon as the national membership comes up guys come out of the woodwork bitching about the per round cost, when in fact you often get significantly better golf at a lower per round cost than at many of the home clubs. I guess it's easier to justify 20k to the wife when she can take the kids to the pool than 5k for guy's trips, especially when you don't wear the pants in the family 8). Here's the secret guys, get the wife and kids to play and the national membership becomes a win, win, win...
That sounds great in theory, but I just don't think the math works, even if the Sand Hills didn't have a really short golfing season that overlaps entirely with the season in the rest of the northern part of the country. (Unless you're claiming that it costs $20,000/year to belong to a local country club, which strikes me as incredibly high.) Here in DC, we can play about 9 months/year, and I'd say dues average $500-$600/month, so let's be conservative and assume an annual expense of $8,000/year. If you play just once a week during the nine-month season, that's $222/round. [$8,000/36]. If you're paying $5,000/year in the Sand Hills, you'd have to play 23 rounds to have the numbers even out -- and that's assuming zero cost of travel or lodging.
Those intent on "penciling the numbers" on a membership will most likely be public golfers forever. Not that this is a bad thing.
I agree, but for those who are going to do the numbers, might as well get them right.
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It boggles the mind that noone bats an eyelash at the per round cost of a home club and then as soon as the national membership comes up guys come out of the woodwork bitching about the per round cost, when in fact you often get significantly better golf at a lower per round cost than at many of the home clubs. I guess it's easier to justify 20k to the wife when she can take the kids to the pool than 5k for guy's trips, especially when you don't wear the pants in the family 8). Here's the secret guys, get the wife and kids to play and the national membership becomes a win, win, win...
That sounds great in theory, but I just don't think the math works, even if the Sand Hills didn't have a really short golfing season that overlaps entirely with the season in the rest of the northern part of the country. (Unless you're claiming that it costs $20,000/year to belong to a local country club, which strikes me as incredibly high.) Here in DC, we can play about 9 months/year, and I'd say dues average $500-$600/month, so let's be conservative and assume an annual expense of $8,000/year. If you play just once a week during the nine-month season, that's $222/round. [$8,000/36]. If you're paying $5,000/year in the Sand Hills, you'd have to play 23 rounds to have the numbers even out -- and that's assuming zero cost of travel or lodging.
Carl,
Couple of points:
1. Try joining a club in NY, Chicago or LA for 5k dues per year, not to mention a significantly higher downstroke.
2. I assume these local clubs you're talking about aren't all Doak 8's and 9's.
3. 23 rounds is only 2 trips for the GCA fanatic crowd. If 1 or more other family members plays and/or if the club in question is within driving distance, it's a layup.
4. In my case, my wife and son both play and there's probably only 2 clubs in my hometown with golf as good or better than my national club, although both have inferior playing surfaces. Not to mention the fact that neither would have me and they're probably 3x the price for dues and a much higher multiple for the downstroke.
5. Not everything in life is about dollars and cents. I assume you don't shop exclusively at the Dollar store or aspire to being the next Hetty Green... ;)
Jud,
These are all assumptions that may or may not be true in all cases, or that don't always cut in your favor. For example, the same GCA fanatic who plays 11 rounds on a trip also probably doesn't play just 1 time a week at home (an assumption I made to be conservative, but that can be made much more aggressive and drive the numbers much cheaper).
As for your point (5), I agree completely [and am a member at a club notwithstanding the per-round cost], but you were the one who started with the dollars and cents argument, which I was just responding to.
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I think we've established long ago on this site that people don't normally join clubs in the US for good cost per round figures....
And even a Ballyneal/Dismal union would still mean the same thing.
P.S. Its like JK always says. Being a private club is not so much about who you let in, its about who you keep out! ;)
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Or just promise a trip to Cabo each year as well. By the way, who owes who?
I had Tom and Gil at 3-1.
Damn, could not remember if Gil was part of the deal or not. Round of golf on Ocean or a dinner at Nick-San on me.
As the OC, Nick-San is so very good.
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Nick-San is excellent, although given my druthers I'd take this one:
http://travel.nytimes.com/travel/guides/north-america/mexico/baja-california/san-jose-del-cabo/66969/don-emiliano/restaurant-detail.html
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Nick-San is excellent. Although given my druthers I'd take this one:
http://travel.nytimes.com/travel/guides/north-america/mexico/baja-california/san-jose-del-cabo/66969/don-emiliano/restaurant-detail.html
Amazingly I have never eaten there... I need to spend more time in San José versus San Lucas. That said best dinner in SJ is a place simply called "H".
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Haven't read this whole thread but I just wanted to add the following . . .
I'm saddened to read that there are problems at Ballyneal.
I had one of the greatest golfing / living experiences of my life at Ballyneal.
I was invited very generously by someone who I "met" here, to spend a day or 2 at the club with my best friend who lives in CO.
It was a wonderful way to spend some time with a great friend in an incredible setting.
The course is one of the very best I've ever seen and or played.
The people at the club could not possibly have been more kind and or welcoming.
I'm wishing the very best to all involved.
Best,
Ted
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H was pointed out to me by the Cabo guide himself...I will second that recomendation.
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H was pointed out to me by the Cabo guide himself...I will second that recomendation.
As part of this new unified club maybe we can get Papa and hijo Espinosa to open a restaurant at each facility club with one trying to outdo the other. Heck I might join this club if it came to pass.
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Good to see BN making a hard push for new members.
From the National Membership thread:
Wow! This just came across my inbox:
Ballyneal
Initiation: $10,000
Dues: $4,000/yr regional member (within 300 miles); $2,500/yr national member (outside of 300 miles)
They also instituted some incentives if you and your friends join:
2 Golfers = $1,000 club usage credit per each new member
3 Golfers = $1,500 club usage credit per each new member
4 Golfers = $2,000 club usage credit per each new member
5 Golfers =$2,500 club usage credit per each new member
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I think we've established long ago on this site that people don't normally join clubs in the US for good cost per round figures....
And even a Ballyneal/Dismal union would still mean the same thing.
P.S. Its like JK always says. Being a private club is not so much about who you let in, its about who you keep out! ;)
If this is the case, why are clubs closing shop and/or struggling? Furthermore, why aren't these empty slots being snatched up? Sure, the elite clubs will always be able to switch people off to the cost per round analysis because they are either loaded and/or like the cache of elite membership, but I can assure you, there are plenty of golfers out there who will do the numbers and act accordingly. With folks having less time (or not as willing to devote time to the club) for club life, the reasons for joining a club are less compelling these days. This is going back some time now, but when I figured my cost per round just for golf was going to be north of $100 per game I declined to join the club I had been associated with since childhood.
Ciao
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I think we've established long ago on this site that people don't normally join clubs in the US for good cost per round figures....
And even a Ballyneal/Dismal union would still mean the same thing.
P.S. Its like JK always says. Being a private club is not so much about who you let in, its about who you keep out! ;)
If this is the case, why are clubs closing shop and/or struggling? Furthermore, why aren't these empty slots being snatched up? Sure, the elite clubs will always be able to switch people off to the cost per round analysis because they are either loaded and/or like the cache of elite membership, but I can assure you, there are plenty of golfers out there who will do the numbers and act accordingly. With folks having less time (or not as willing to devote time to the club) for club life, the reasons for joining a club are less compelling these days. This is going back some time now, but when I figured my cost per round just for golf was going to be north of $100 per game I declined to join the club I had been associated with since childhood.
Ciao
Sean,
You hit the nail on the head....less time, less money.
In my previous post, I was only referring to the people who still have more time and more money, but you would be right that there are indeed less and less of these peeps floating around these days.