Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Carl Nichols on September 06, 2011, 08:44:43 PM
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I'm in Palo Alto for work, and thought I'd tee up the question I've always wondered about -- why aren't there better courses here? It's obviously not about money or weather, and it seems like there would be some terrific sites. Is it a lack of available land? Something else?
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As I have traveled this great country I have come to the conclusion that people get the courses they deserve. It is no different than you will find with food, music or beautiful women. Have you ever went out to a fine dinner and seen the women of silicon valley? Case closed.
Note: I have not played The institute, but neither have you.
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check out the price per acre and report back to the group...
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I think Pasa and Stanford are pretty good courses. I heard San Jose CC and Los Altos CC are ok but have played them.
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check out the price per acre and report back to the group...
I get that it's ridiculously expensive here. It's also expensive on Long Island [though not as expensive], but both Sebonack and Friar's Head were built recently. Plus, the fact that it's really expensive here now doesn't explain why a great course wasn't built before.
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The resort areas near there have Pebble, Cypress Point and MPCC. try to balance populations etc during the 20's in both places.
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check out the price per acre and report back to the group...
Also, check out the percentage of nerds that play golf, and report back to the group.
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check out the price per acre and report back to the group...
Also, check out the percentage of nerds that play golf, and report back to the group.
99% percent of the nerds that post here (comprising 100% of the discussion board members) play golf. ;D
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Plus, the fact that it's really expensive here now doesn't explain why a great course wasn't built before.
Dr. Mac had numerous courses in the area, you have SFGC, Olympic, Cypress Point, Pebble Beach, Cal Club, MPCC and Pasatiempo all within 1 1/2 hours from Silicon Valley.
But back in the day, when those great courses were being built, Silicon Valley was farm land, the wealth was primarily in San Francisco.
And finally, an argument can be made that the land of Silicon Valley isn't all that noble for golf courses, lacking many of the great features found in great golf courses ...
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Well what courses around Silicon Valley have great sites? I would say there are a lot of good ones but not that really great ones, from what I've seen. And of those which ones really aspire to be great as opposed to nice country clubs or that sort of thing?
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If you want something pretty good but not great, head to Cinnabar Hills. That's an interesting course.
Assuming were limiting this to just the San Jose area and not including Santa Cruz, the peninsula (san fran), or the east bay...it pretty much ends there I think.
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I really enjoyed Cordevalle. Beautiful setting, fun course, good challenge. Pretty strategic, each time I played it I learned a bit more.
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check out the price per acre and report back to the group...
Also, check out the percentage of nerds that play golf, and report back to the group.
check out the percentage of Koreans that play golf.
The nerds I was referring to were the hardware and software geeks of silicon valley. Perhaps you can enlighten me about the Koreans you refer to. Are they software and hardware types, or business types? The Koreans that I know at my club are typically small business owners.
Software Geek
EDIT: I thought of tacking this on to my last post. My fellow software geeks at work are most likely to discuss frisbee sports including frisbee golf, and killer frisbee golf courses with drop shot par threes, and cool doglegs you have to curve the disk around.
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If you want something pretty good but not great, head to Cinnabar Hills. That's an interesting course.
Assuming were limiting this to just the San Jose area and not including Santa Cruz, the peninsula (san fran), or the east bay...it pretty much ends there I think.
Kalen -
From Palo Alto, the travel time to Cinnabar or Pasatiempo is nearly identical ...
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I haven't seen Sharon Heights mentioned. It is one of the best Country Club courses in that area and was rated as one of the toughest courses in No. Cal at one time. Used to be known for great greens. Jack Flemming course.
http://www.golflink.com/golf-courses/course.aspx?course=105945
Also Boulder Ridge CC is pretty spectacular course.
http://boulderridgegolfclub.com/
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If you want something pretty good but not great, head to Cinnabar Hills. That's an interesting course.
Assuming were limiting this to just the San Jose area and not including Santa Cruz, the peninsula (san fran), or the east bay...it pretty much ends there I think.
Kalen -
From Palo Alto, the travel time to Cinnabar or Pasatiempo is nearly identical ...
Mike,
Thanks for the clarification...I would have thought Cinnabar to be a fair amount closer. But then again, when I think Silicon Valley I think San Jose/Santa Clara. Palo Alto is on the far north end of Silicon Valley though.
Either way, one thing is for sure...there is no good golf right in Silicon Valley. Best one I can think of is Santa Clara Stars and Stripes, but thats a Doak 3 at best.
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Where is Tom Huckaby when you need him? You would be sure to hear a rant of some sort out of him. The price of land is out here is outrageous, but that is not the reason why there aren't better courses. When San Jose and the Peninsula really grew population wise, cities built municipal golf courses. Of course, when those courses were built, it wasn't exactly in the Golden Age of course design. Therefore you get Shoreline, Palo Alto Muni, San Jose Muni, Sunnyvale, and Santa Clara. They are built on similar types of land that are not all that note-worthy or interesting. Of those listed about, Santa Clara does probably have the most interesting terrain, and Shoreline probably the best design. That's not saying a whole lot unfortunately. Santa Teresa, Huckaby's old home track is good too, but nothing spectacular architecture wise. And Kalen gave my place of employment, Cinnabar Hills, a little free advertising. Thanks for the plug man. Cinnabar does have some very quality attributes, and was my favorite public course to play even before they started signing my paychecks. San Jose Country Club would probably be my favorite private course truly in Silicon Valley, although some would argue for Boulder Ridge or Almaden. SJCC is an old-school type of course, 6,200 yards, small greens, and has some very good holes. Being a San Jose guy, I consider Stanford to be on the Peninsula, but that is a very good golf course. Sharon Heights is good too, not quite Stanford though.
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Carl — Good question. Ask it in a few years once we get our arm around Palo Alto Golf Course (Palo Alto Muni). This c. 1956 layout was both Wm. P and Wm. F Bell, although the elder Bell passed away before it opened. It has seen better days, for sure. Our work is very similar to what we found at Olivas Park in Ventura, CA (a tired course with no shortage of issues, and issue categories) before we transformed the course into Olivas Links.
Regarding the geeks...there are a boatload of serious golfers and golf enthusiasts in this area. Even if you grabbed a very low 5% participation rate, you have a built-in golf population that is hungry for better golf. This is why the City of Palo Alto is focusing on its public course...to meet that demand. My take is that people play the offerings in this area because of (1) price and (2) location.
BTW, the site is very cool with some great views to the Baylands. Although flat, we see great potential.
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Carl — Good question. Ask it in a few years once we get our arm around Palo Alto Golf Course (Palo Alto Muni).
They just rebuilt Palo Alto Muni, what? 12 years ago?
Is it time to do it again?
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Hey Pete,
Good to see you around. I sure wish they had something like your course in Silicon Valley. ;D
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Peter — It was the late 1990s and the work was incomplete as they "ran out of funds."
This (current) work has to do with re-aligning the San Francisquito Creek flood channel, so it trumps whatever improvements were completed, including the work of RTJ Sr. back in the 1970s-80s.
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Here is a listing of public courses in SV and surrounds that are at least worth mentioning on a Four Seasons information page:
http://www.fourseasons.com/siliconvalley/other_recreation/golf.html
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Peter — It was the late 1990s and the work was incomplete as they "ran out of funds."
This (current) work has to do with re-aligning the San Francisquito Creek flood channel, so it trumps whatever improvements were completed, including the work of RTJ Sr. back in the 1970s-80s.
So does that mean that another agency will be paying for some of the work?
Even though they ran out of funds, they haven't finished paying off the debt, the City sucks a healthy chunk of money from the revenue each month guaranteeing that the course is not profitable in many months.
If you can, describe the work that will be done with the flood channel moving ...
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Here is a listing of public courses in SV and surrounds that are at least worth mentioning on a Four Seasons information page:
http://www.fourseasons.com/siliconvalley/other_recreation/golf.html
Kevin,
That's all fine and good but including Crystal, Presidio, HMB, Pasa, and Pebble as "SV and surrounds" is a bit of a stretch.
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That's all fine and good but including Crystal, Presidio, HMB, Pasa, and Pebble as "SV and surrounds" is a bit of a stretch.
Not sure why this is such a big deal for you.
Go to any major metro area and if you had to limit the travel to 30 minutes from the hotel, you will likely only have a couple of courses on the list. Expand the travel window to an hour, the list gets bigger. At least the Four Seasons is providing accurate travel times to the courses.
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Mike — The floodway work will pay for their share of whatever course reconfiguration takes place. The scope and specifics are not determined as we are just now in the planning stages. Basically, the western and norther edges will shift to accommodate a larger, wider and realigned creek channel.
I do not foresee the City undertaking any major improvement work to the course at their cost...unless it were to increase revenue or reduce cost — those would be sensible opportunities.
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Loved your work at Olivas. Hope you can do the same with Palo. I played there once about 30 years ago and the only thing I remember was the Hof Brau restaurant that was on the premises. Pretty flat and nothing to remember.
You need to come to Sacramento next and redo Hagin Oaks-Mackenzie.
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As I have traveled this great country I have come to the conclusion that people get the courses they deserve. It is no different than you will find with food, music or beautiful women. Have you ever went out to a fine dinner and seen the women of silicon valley? Case closed.
Note: I have not played The institute, but neither have you.
Sir,
When I was 12 or 13 years old, discovering an interest & teaching myself the game, coming from non-golfing family of moderate means, paying for my own clubs, greens fees & balls, bumming a ride to the closest course when ever I could, did I get the golf course I deserve ..... ??
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Our work is very similar to what we found at Olivas Park in Ventura, CA (a tired course with no shortage of issues, and issue categories) before we transformed the course into Olivas Links.
BTW, the site is very cool with some great views to the Baylands. Although flat, we see great potential.
Slightly confused here, so even though you haven't fully scoped and spec'd the project, you have defined the style of course that will result?
And let's be serious, as I commented above, the mid-Peninsula / Silicon Valley does not have the land forms to present a great course. And as to the views, the view out to the Baylands is not exactly like the one to Great Peconic Bay.
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Mike — Well, we plan on it being an improvement ... and something that will transform the course. Check in later this year. We have just begun to look at the possibilities. Your take might be that the land is not very good, but I see it differently. I think if you look past some of the conditions and landscape, the site has a lot of interest. After all, it used to be the natural mouth of the San Francisquito creek as it poured into the Bay. Many of the small depressions and low areas are still there, they have just been allowed to grass over and become overrun with a mess of odd tree varieties.
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When is the work scheduled to begin?
When is it scheduled to end?
Will the entire course be closed for a period of time or just parts of it?
Thanks.
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No firm timetable for the improvements to begin. Not likely before 2013. We are hoping for a short, six month, work window, but that has obviously not been determined. Ideally, 9-holes or more will stay open during all work.
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No firm timetable for the improvements to begin. Not likely before 2013. We are hoping for a short, six month, work window, but that has obviously not been determined. Ideally, 9-holes or more will stay open during all work.
Sounds good. Look forward to it. Enjoyed what you did at Olivas very much.
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Thanks for the kind words about Olivas. The end result was better than all of us thought ever possible, and we managed it for a very low investment.