Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Jim Hoak on August 19, 2011, 09:51:19 AM
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Is it ready? Were the planned changes completed? Anyone seen it recently? Will it work for the Amateur this week?
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I hope the course is dry and in good condition this week. Regardless of the course's condition I'm looking forward to watching the tournament this week!
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Is it ready? Were the planned changes completed? Anyone seen it recently? Will it work for the Amateur this week?
Played there in late May. Looks ready to go to me and planned changes are complete. I think it will be a fine venue. BTW, free admission for patrons.
Here is a photo album:
http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/erinhills/
Here is my earlier thread called "Wisconsin photo tour" with some pics and discussion of EH at the beginning:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48480.0.html
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I had the pleasure of playing Erin Hills last August and cannot say enough good things about the course. I simply cannot believe it doesn't get more acclaim than it does. It's only somewhat remote as it's about 2 hrs from Chicago, but if you're going that way, you're much more likely to go to Whistling Straits.
The course has a great mix of interesting holes, short long, around, over, etc., even a blind shot or two thrown in for good measure. I'm perhaps biased towards it because I played my best round of the summer there from the tips, but it's a real gem. The creepy basilica on the hill nearby adds a spooky element that only further persuades you you're in Ireland. If the wind blows, the guys will really struggle I predict.
I can't wait to get back out there, but for this summer I'll just have to watch it on TV. Can't wait!
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My friend Jesse an 11 handi, played it last FRi, with his Son- a scratch, and Jesse shot over 100 from the whites, and son 95 from blue. His son regularly shoots par to low 70s at 'the Bull', which is the tough Nicklaus course, so he is no chimp. Many three putts in the group. He said the conditions were very good, and the rough didn't factor (but he really hits a nice controlled but short ball finding the FW most every shot.
The weather has moderated from all the heat, and if it holds, it should be ideal. He said he couldn't make FW a couple of times, too long of a walkout.
I'm not sure yet which day, probably during an early round, but at least the two of us are going. For those who may go and have the time or extra day, don't miss viewing a round at Blue Mounds, which may be even more of a point of interest to the old school GCA fossils who haven't seen that excellent series of Raynor template holes. I won't be going to BM this time, since I"ve seen/played it a couple times. But for a first timer, it is a treat. I'll be very interested to see the big boys tackle EH.
If anyone is going, try me on IM, and maybe we can arrange same day and meet-up.
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anyone heading up? I'm thinking of heading up for the Saturday round with my son....
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If I were closer, I'd be just as interested in visiting Blue Mound for one of the stroke play rounds to watch some of the young guys play a shorter Seth Raynor design.
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Short hitters will definitely struggle. I'm a fairly long hitter (carry it about 275, so can hit it 300 yds when the ground is dry) and there were a few into the wind holes where I couldn't make it to the top of an upslope, leaving a horribly awkward, long uphill shot to the green. I think it may have been 8? Try hitting a three wood off a 35+ degree slope to a blind green...rough
The day I played, my girlfriend and I were joined by two guys who dressed like they were straight out of a Nike commercial. One shot 65, the other 74. On the front nine....they refused to move up a set of tees and neither would've broken 150.
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Here are more threads...
One I did last summer at about this time, when it was much wetter, of Erin Hills:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,45966.0.html
And here's one from last summer of Blue Mound:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,45401.0.html
Some thoughts:
-- It's hard to imagine two more contrasting golf courses than Erin Hills and Blue Mound; I think those who play Erin Hills first will have a tougher time gearing down for BM than the other way around.
-- It has been (at least an hour west and somewhat south of the two courses) pretty darn dry here for the past few weeks; BM is typically kept pretty green, while I know the folks at EH were hoping for a dry lead-in to the Amateur. Looks like they got it.
-- (Edit) Here is the championship website: http://www.2011usamateur.com/ The USGA link at http://www.usga.org/ChampEventSite.aspx?id=17179869326 has the list of players, pairings, and starting times.
-- Also, admission to the entire tournament at both courses is free for all days of the championship.
(If anyone needs any help on getting to either course, or other insights, feel free to IM me; I'm headed up to EH sometime during the championship.)
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I've had this on my calendar for a year now. I'm really looking forward to seeing how the top Ams play the firm turf and undulating fairways at EH. Hopefully the USGA uses some elasticity with the set-ups over the week, because depending on wind and firmness, I would guess the course can play very different from day to day. I really hope they don't take it all the way out to 8,200 or whatever the true tips measure out at.
What hole is everyone most interested in seeing the Ams play? #2 should be pretty cool with the various options and the opportunity to drive the green. #15 will be neat as well for similar reasons.
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It's a very good course. I like it as much and maybe even better than Straits, which is a little excessive (to say the least) with the eye candy and a bit of an abomination for a finishing hole. It will be a great site for the Amateur and for the US Open as well.
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George:
I'll watch #2 a lot; my favorite hole on the course, and one of more polarizing ones out there. #15 as well should be fun to watch.
I'll be interested to see whether they make any of the par 5s truly reachable in two for the Ams, who hit it a ton. Also interested in how #12 plays; it was a beast during last year's Mid-Am qualifying.
For those who haven't been to Erin Hills, there are a number of mounds and hills with great vantage points to watch multiple holes. But be prepared for a bit of hiking -- some of the best vantage points are aways away from the clubhouse.
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I played there last fall and will be interested to see the Am played there. I played the course both before and after the major changes. It is a much better course, currently. Wow, it's a demanding walk, and that comes from a guy who walks all the time.
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Pretty interesting synopsis of Erin Hills history
http://www.jsonline.com/sports/golf/128134403.html
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I played it in July, phenomenal course. It will be great for the Am and great for the US Open. I didn't follow all of the fuss about the changes but what they have right now is great.
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Pretty interesting synopsis of Erin Hills history
http://www.jsonline.com/sports/golf/128134403.html
Buck:
Here's the definitive story on Erin Hills, and the interesting and odd road that led to this week's championship (and the US Open):
http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-tours-news/2010-01/golf_erin_hills_ginella_0125
I think it's fair to say Whitten, among the original architects, is not terribly happy w/ how this all turned out.
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They're off and going. Early scores look pretty good.
Anybody know anything about the other course being used for stroke play--Blue Mound?
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They're off and going. Early scores look pretty good.
Anybody know anything about the other course being used for stroke play--Blue Mound?
Jim:
See reply #8 on this thread.
There may be a 1,000-yard difference in the two courses, which may be a USGA first/record.
So far a pretty good mix of scores -- leader is -5 at Blue Mound (par 70), with Uihlein in with a 68 (-4) at EH (par 72). Some rounds in the mid-to-high 70s at each course. Ideal scoring conditions today in Wisconsin -- temps in mid-70s with a light breeze. Turns more humid the next two days, with a chance of late-afternoon rains/storms tomorrow, which could interrupt play.
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Potentially obvious question alert :) : They keep the pins in the same location both days on the respective courses right?
So I assume Blue Mound is using quite a bit of hard and "sucker" pins to keep the scores from going very low. I am pretty surprised that 65 is the low round so far.
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Short hitters will definitely struggle. I'm a fairly long hitter (carry it about 275, so can hit it 300 yds when the ground is dry) and there were a few into the wind holes where I couldn't make it to the top of an upslope, leaving a horribly awkward, long uphill shot to the green. I think it may have been 8? Try hitting a three wood off a 35+ degree slope to a blind green...rough
The day I played, my girlfriend and I were joined by two guys who dressed like they were straight out of a Nike commercial. One shot 65, the other 74. On the front nine....they refused to move up a set of tees and neither would've broken 150.
David-
I must be missing something. If one of the guys shot 65 from the tips, why do you think he wouldn't have broken 150?
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Erin Hills
-- Set up at 7,760 yards and will play to a par of 36-36–72. (Longest course in USGA history, surpassing the 7,742 yards played at Chambers Bay last year)
Blue Mound Golf & Country Club
-- Set up at 6,622 yards and will play to a par of 35-35–70.
The front nines at the two courses have a 600-yard differential, but only one-shot to par difference.
Blue Mound has a 492-yard par-5, while Erin Hills has four par-4s over 490.
(http://i1089.photobucket.com/albums/i352/hriefs/Screen20shot202011-08-1920at2010_26_2220AM.png)
(http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2011/8/19/erin-hills-longest-course-in-usga-history-even-though-distan.html)[/list]
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Short hitters will definitely struggle. I'm a fairly long hitter (carry it about 275, so can hit it 300 yds when the ground is dry) and there were a few into the wind holes where I couldn't make it to the top of an upslope, leaving a horribly awkward, long uphill shot to the green. I think it may have been 8? Try hitting a three wood off a 35+ degree slope to a blind green...rough
The day I played, my girlfriend and I were joined by two guys who dressed like they were straight out of a Nike commercial. One shot 65, the other 74. On the front nine....they refused to move up a set of tees and neither would've broken 150.
David-
I must be missing something. If one of the guys shot 65 from the tips, why do you think he wouldn't have broken 150?
The course is a slog - a very tough and long walk. I think the back 9 his harder. 65 on the front was his better 9...
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So I assume Blue Mound is using quite a bit of hard and "sucker" pins to keep the scores from going very low. I am pretty surprised that 65 is the low round so far.
Pure speculation,but I'd guess not--pace of play trumps resistance to scoring.It's hard enough to get that many guys around the golf course putting every flag in the center of every green.
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I think one other thing needs mentioning -- EH is designed to play fast and firm, with wide fescue fairways, so it's probably playing "shorter" than 7,760, as Wisconsin's had a nice run of dry weather lately. BM, on the other hand, is kept pretty green and is pretty tight -- my guess is that nearly everyone playing is using whatever they can off the tee to place the ball where they want to for approach shots. I can see the smart amateurs not using their drivers all that much at BM -- you really don't need to that often.
Added: EH also has a number of elevated tee shots; BM plays on very flat terrain, with hardly any elevated tee shots.
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Short hitters will definitely struggle. I'm a fairly long hitter (carry it about 275, so can hit it 300 yds when the ground is dry) and there were a few into the wind holes where I couldn't make it to the top of an upslope, leaving a horribly awkward, long uphill shot to the green. I think it may have been 8? Try hitting a three wood off a 35+ degree slope to a blind green...rough
The day I played, my girlfriend and I were joined by two guys who dressed like they were straight out of a Nike commercial. One shot 65, the other 74. On the front nine....they refused to move up a set of tees and neither would've broken 150.
David-
I must be missing something. If one of the guys shot 65 from the tips, why do you think he wouldn't have broken 150?
The course is a slog - a very tough and long walk. I think the back 9 his harder. 65 on the front was his better 9...
Ahhh, I thought the 65 was for 18 holes and you meant 150 as two-round score . . . not that these guys were two complete chops.
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Erin Hills looked good today. Fescue not quite there on the hills but by next year it should be perfect.
Playing firm and fast.
Asked some guy sitting on an umbrella chair on the third tee what group just teed off. Then I saw his name tag - Mike Davis. Nice guy - talked to me for a few minutes. He knew about this website but said too busy to watch it.
EH will be a hoot for match play.
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If JVB or Mark S., are looking in, or if anyone knows: will either or both those fellows be there for officiating duties?
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Just have to say....
As someone who's been pretty critical of the USGA and Davis for their set-ups at recent US Opens, they seemed to have done an interesting and good job with the two courses used for the Amateur this year. Blue Mound was a pleasant surprise; many figured the USGA would opt for the nearby (Erin Hills, that is) Art Hills-designed Washington County for the alternate stroke-play course, but instead they went the opposite direction with the classic BM.
So far, the two quite contrasting courses are yielding similar scores -- -5 leads so far, with two of those at BM, but the courses seem to be yielding roughly equal numbers of -4, -3 and -2 rounds. And neither course has a monopoly on the higher-scoring rounds. Well done so far.
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Phil
A guy told me today Lang insisted Wash Co not be the other course due to some beef.
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Commentary on the two courses from Randy Haag along with a few pictures and some shots at Chambers Bay:
http://randyhaag.com/2011/08/22/2011-us-amateur-begins-monday-at-erin-hills-and-blue-mound-cc/
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How about this sad paragraph? (From: http://www.jsonline.com/sports/golf/128134403.html)
Twelve years after Lang and Trattner toured Millikin's land, Ziegler does own a golf course. He owns Erin Hills. He purchased it in October 2009, from an overextended Lang, who had indeed bought the land, built the course and opened it three years earlier.
Lang, whose dream morphed from building a nine-hole course to pursuing a U.S. Open - an obsession that cost him millions and consumed nearly his every waking moment - hasn't stepped foot on Erin Hills since the day he sold it.
Millikin passed away in March at age 80. Her son, Jeff, owns a gas station on the corner of Highway 83 and County 0, one mile from Erin Hills, once home to his family's prized herd of Charolais beef cattle.
"I chased a lot of cattle up and down those hills in my younger days," Jeff Millikin said.
Trattner, Erin Hills' first general manager, is serving a 35-year prison term at Waupun Correctional Institution for killing his wife, Sin Lam, in their Mequon home in 2006.
And Erin Hills?
The public course, seemingly unaffected by the drama that has unfolded around it, plays host to the 111th U.S. Amateur Championship this week. Stroke-play qualifying begins Monday and the championship concludes next Sunday.
Geez... talk about a happy ending ::)
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Here's another interesting quote from the same article above:
Whitten, anxious to get started on the project, had written a letter to Davis in 2003 in which he described the land as a potential site for a U.S. Open. He hoped the letter would inspire Lang to start construction.
"I talked to Mike Hurdzan and said, 'Mike, would you mind if I dangled the U.S. Open in front of Bob?' " Whitten said. "Mike said, 'Ron, the U.S. Open is never going to go to Milwaukee.'
"I said, 'You know that and I know that, but Bob doesn't know that.' "
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Also intriguing is this tidbit from Ginella's Golf Digest piece:
Lang didn't see a better use for his property than a low-key course for locals, his original vision just nine holes. Tom Doak, in the mid-1990s before he was the renowned Tom Doak (and before Lang owned the land), was asked to make some preliminary plans for a course. But in 2000 Lang met architect Mike Hurdzan, and they hit it off.
One can only imagine what the course would look like today if Doak designed it -- be it with or without the inevitable subsequent tweaks from Lang.
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Also intriguing is this tidbit from Ginella's Golf Digest piece:
Lang didn't see a better use for his property than a low-key course for locals, his original vision just nine holes. Tom Doak, in the mid-1990s before he was the renowned Tom Doak (and before Lang owned the land), was asked to make some preliminary plans for a course. But in 2000 Lang met architect Mike Hurdzan, and they hit it off.
One can only imagine what the course would look like today if Doak designed it -- be it with or without the inevitable subsequent tweaks from Lang.
Howard,
This will give your imagination a little clarity:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,39001.0.html
Jim
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Howard,
This will give your imagination a little clarity:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,39001.0.html
Jim
Amazing. Thanks for sharing, Jim. My imagination wouldn't have put me on the 1st tee.
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TV coverage starts today at 3 on Golf Channel, for those interested.
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GCA has a man on the ground today at EH (not me...); let's hope he files a report tonight. :D
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I'm planning to head up to EH on Saturday for the semifinals. Play starts at 8 a.m. according to the tournament website (http://www.2011usamateur.com/schedule-of-events.php).
If anybody wants to meet up, please let me know.
anyone heading up? I'm thinking of heading up for the Saturday round with my son....
Jud, are you going up?
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not sure now. maybe sunday if at all. i'll let you know if i'll be up...
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John Van der Borght on TV intepreting a rules question!
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Phil, don't know if you meant me as the man on the ground today, but a stomach bug had me up all night. So, didn't go, but my friends did.
I have been watching the playoff and just saw why I simply didn't like 12 from the git-go, when I'd played there before the remodel. The time I played there with Hendren, I played it just like Jaeger, pulled left tee shot, went into fescue blind off tee on right, then blind again to green, went right rough, and nearly blind again 3rd shot to green. Ribbon fairway is too narrow, and it is too blind from too many areas that even good players are likely to go off tee. Not to mention when they have 10s of 1000s spectators, where or how far back they will have to be monitored in the blind area 100yards wide in the LZ, and even that is very much a potential LZ hazard for specators, IMO.
I may re-schedule to go down SAt or Sunday.
Great to see JVB getting a prominent upfront USGA role. No one has been more passionate and worked harder and deserves the promo more. 8)
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not sure now. maybe sunday if at all. i'll let you know if i'll be up...
Sounds good. It's a good drive to make an 8 a.m. start.
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RJ:
I did mean you! Hope you're feeling better.
Well, despite the wayward nature of many of the shots, #12 yielded four pars and two bogeys in that final playoff group -- and one of those was a gack of a putt from about three feet by the clearly nervous Miller. My counterpoint would be (maybe not for you and Bogey, but for these guys and the pros) -- yep, narrow fairway and really rambunctious terrain; probably the most severe over any one hole out there. But stuff does sort of funnel down to that green, and the green itself struck me as one of the flatter ones out there. I can maybe see widening the fairway a bit, but I like the blind nature of the recovery shots -- hit off-line, and you face a tough recovery.
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The new definition of "smitten" is Mike Davis on Erin Hills:
.“I think it is going to go down as one of the great championship tests in the United States,” Davis said. “I start to go hole by hole, and I compare this to some of the great U.S. Open sites, like Shinnecock, like Pebble Beach, like Oakmont. This stands up with all of them. I really believe that.”
Shinnecock? Pebble? Oakmont?
http://www.golfchannel.com/news/golftalkcentral/davis-compares-erin-hills-to-shinnecock-pebble-beach/
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The new definition of "smitten" is Mike Davis on Erin Hills:
.“I think it is going to go down as one of the great championship tests in the United States,” Davis said. “I start to go hole by hole, and I compare this to some of the great U.S. Open sites, like Shinnecock, like Pebble Beach, like Oakmont. This stands up with all of them. I really believe that.”
Shinnecock? Pebble? Oakmont?
http://www.golfchannel.com/news/golftalkcentral/davis-compares-erin-hills-to-shinnecock-pebble-beach/
I have to say I agree with him. After I played it last year, it jumped into my top 5 all time. In fact, I remarked to my friends after playing it that "I couldn't think of a course I played that was better - some that were equal but none better." Watching the Am on tv last night reminded me of how much I liked it. I'm STUNNED it doesn't crack the top 100 on either GD or GM's lists. I think that has to be due to a lack of exposure/play by the raters more than anything else. Every hole is unique. I can honestly say there's no hole there that I've played elsewhere. #12 is real gem. 10, 11 and 12 really beat up the playoff contenders yesterday too...
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David,
There's a difference between a great test for the best players and being one of the best courses in the world. Yes it's a great piece of property and a course of note, but what specifically leads you to believe it's one of the best courses on the planet?
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I'm STUNNED it doesn't crack the top 100 on either GD or GM's lists. I think that has to be due to a lack of exposure/play by the raters more than anything else.
David: EHills had a very rough beginning, and has changed substantially since it first opened five years ago. I'm not even sure the course that Lang opened in 2006 could be called the same course as the one the amateurs are playing this week. And that might partially account for how it's been perceived by the raters. In addition, the changes made to the course to get it ready for the US Amateur and the US Open shut down the course for long stretches -- it didn't open last year until August, which means it missed roughly two-thirds of the golfing season here.
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I like Erin Hills, and enjoyed my round there quite a bit last summer (I never saw one of the previous versions, just the current course) and think it fits its purpose well now. However...on the same level as Oakmont? Really Mike?
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David,
There's a difference between a great test for the best players and being one of the best courses in the world. Yes it's a great piece of property and a course of note, but what specifically leads you to believe it's one of the best courses on the planet?
I think the variety of the holes there is excellent and the challenges it poses to good players are fantastic. I've never seen a course of that length that wasn't just bomb it, find it, whack it at the green. I think Bethpage is a perfect example of a course like that. I think it's grossly overrated. It's long for the sake of being long, it has incredibly boring, flat greens and is a paradigm of what is wrong with stretching golf courses to that length. Whereas Erin Hills is long (but plays shorter because of how firm the ground usually is), but rewards shotmaking.
When I played the course, I was fortunate both to: (i) be swinging as well as I would the entirety of that summer and (ii) have a great caddy. There's so much strategy involved in picking lines off the tee to set up an angle for a second shot based on where the pin is and then how to play the approach shot to get it close.
I'll give you an example:
#10: When I played the pin was back right and my caddy told me the best way to get it close was to try and hit the slope 10 yds right of the green and let it feed down, but that the shot there worked best if you were on the right side of the fairway so you could draw it onto the slope helping it kick down.
I'm going to agree with Mike Davis on this one. I think it's a fantastic course and I've played a number of courses on the current US Open "rota." I think EH is much more interesting than, for example, Congressional or Baltusrol.
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Thanks. I'd agree that it's more fun than a lot of the traditional brutish championship courses. The knock on it has been that perhaps A) they were a bit too fanatical about the "only moved a spoonful of dirt" on 14 (?) holes concept and B) that although laid out like a links both the severity of some of the greenside slopes and the maintenance meld available on southern Wisconsin clay prohibits a lot of ground game options typical of real links golf.
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Thanks. I'd agree that it's more fun than a lot of the traditional brutish championship courses. The knock on it has been that perhaps A) they were a bit too fanatical about the "only moved a spoonful of dirt" on 14 (?) holes concept and B) that although laid out like a links both the severity of some of the greenside slopes and the maintenance meld available on southern Wisconsin clay prohibits a lot of ground game options typical of real links golf.
I didn't have a problem with how little dirt they moved. There are a few blind shots, but only one that you can't avoid with a well-placed shot - #2 tee shot.
Your critique on the upslopes around some of the greens is fair. There are a lot of hole where you must fly the ball on top. However, for me that added to the challenge/interest because you couldn't simply hack the ball up short and let it kick on every hole. Sometimes you had to fly it, sometimes you had to bounce it. That challenge was interesting I thought. Long, short, left, right - there was a "best" way to get it close to every hole and I thought that the level of creativity that evoked was memorable. It allows creativity normally reserved for short game shots and I loved that.
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I'm going to agree with Mike Davis on this one. I think it's a fantastic course and I've played a number of courses on the current US Open "rota." I think EH is much more interesting than, for example, Congressional or Baltusrol.
For context, it might help to share which of the current Open courses you've played and which of the other top whatever you've played. Not trying to be mean, just trying to get a grasp of what you're saying.
You better hope the NY guys don't see what you said about Bethpage, or you might want to look over your shoulder... :)
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I'm STUNNED it doesn't crack the top 100 on either GD or GM's lists.
EH is exempt from the GD list as one of the three original course architects, Ron Whitten, is the architecture editor at the magazine.
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Some course statistics from the two rounds of medal play that might be of interest (presumably Mr. Davis may look at the course stats as the USGA "tweaks" EH for the Open in six years):
-- EH averaged just over 75 strokes per round, +3. The front nine (37.891) played more than a half-stroke more difficult than the back nine (37.243).
-- The two easiest holes were #s 1 (the par 5 opener) and #11 (shown extensively during yesterday's Golf Channel coverage -- the mid-range par 4). Not terribly surprised by either hole; despite some of the wildly off-line tee shots in yesterday's playoff, #11 has a gathering fairway and a not-terribly-difficult green to negotiate; #1 played as the shortest of the course's par 5s in this set-up. One wonders if Davis might lengthen #1 to provide more of a challenge at the US Open; it played at 563 yds for the Amateur, but can be pushed back another 70-75 yards.
-- The two most difficult holes were #s 8 and 3 -- not surprised at #3, a 500-yard par 4 into the wind with fierce bunkering and a very good and challenging green. #8 was a bit of a surprise, playing nearly a full half-stroke over par, making it the most difficult hole on the course. But, if you don't catch the downslope on that fairway with the drive, you're left w/ a long approach off a potentially downhill lie to a green above you that's pretty shallow and bunkered in front. I guess I can see why it might be hard. :D
-- EH started off soft -- #s 1 and 2 were two of the four easiest holes on the course during stroke play -- then smacks you with #s 3 and 4, two of the four hardest holes on the course. An interesting ying and yang to start off the round. By and large, the front nine looks like the test you have to get through in order to keep your round in shape; only one of the six hardest holes on the course (#10, the one featured in yesterday's TV coverage -- a whopping 526-yd par 4) was on the back nine. In fact, once you get through hole #12, you've played 7 of the 9 toughest holes on the course, and all six of the most difficult.
-- The two short, gambling par 4s -- #2 and #15 (both set up at 370 yds or shorter, which is short for EH) -- played much differently. #2 played just slightly over par (4.016) as the fourth-easiest hole on the course; it yielded one eagle and 55 birdies, along with 48 bogeys and 7 double-bogeys. This, to me, is the mark of a very good short par 4 -- it yields under-par scores with good execution, but penalizes loose or poor play (note the under-par scores nearly exactly equaled the over-par scores). Golfers were far more careful, it seems, with #15 -- only 28 birdies, with 67 bogeys and 8 doubles (it played as the 8th-toughest hole during stroke play). The stats for the two holes reinforces my view that the green surrounds at #15 are too penalizing for the golfers to take on the risk-reward approach seemingly built into that hole; the risk-reward equation seems to work out much better on #2. Further justification for my view that #2 is one of the best holes at EH. :D (Paging Pat Craig. ;D)
Stats here from the USGA: http://www.usga.org/ChampEventScore.aspx?id=17179869326&year=2011&type=coursestats
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I'm going to agree with Mike Davis on this one. I think it's a fantastic course and I've played a number of courses on the current US Open "rota." I think EH is much more interesting than, for example, Congressional or Baltusrol.
For context, it might help to share which of the current Open courses you've played and which of the other top whatever you've played. Not trying to be mean, just trying to get a grasp of what you're saying.
You better hope the NY guys don't see what you said about Bethpage, or you might want to look over your shoulder... :)
Haha it's ok, I'm from NJ. We're used to dealing with NY braggards. Bethpage is a good course, don't get me wrong, but it's wildly overrated simply because it's public, in my opinion.
To give some perspective, I've played the following US Open courses: Congressional, Baltusrol, Bethpage, Pinehurst, Erin Hills, and Onwentsia. I've played about 25 of the Top 100 US for Golf Digest/Magazine (Plainfield, Shoreacres, etc. etc.), so I consider myself to have seen a lot, but certainly not all and have a decent standard of comparison.
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Thanks. I'd agree that it's more fun than a lot of the traditional brutish championship courses. The knock on it has been that perhaps A) they were a bit too fanatical about the "only moved a spoonful of dirt" on 14 (?) holes concept and B) that although laid out like a links both the severity of some of the greenside slopes and the maintenance meld available on southern Wisconsin clay prohibits a lot of ground game options typical of real links golf.
Jud:
A few reactions:
-- I think you can make a pretty good argument that the USGA has directed several changes that have actually softened the no-dirt-moving ethos that was clearly how Lang and esp. Whitten originally envisioned the course. The denuded esker at #17, which led to the possibility of a blind approach into the green from the fairway, is one example; the green at #2 has clearly been expanded from when it first opened; a hogsback feature on #1 fairway has been flattened. I'm not saying it's a better course because of those changes; but I think the course was perhaps even more severe when it first opened in terms of its lay-of-the-land architecture.
-- The course does play -- or at least has here in August -- rather linksy in many respects: the ball runs out on those fescue fairways, and a lot of it is exposed, so with the kind of winds they had yesterday, you really have to take into account how the wind will impact shots. But, on the other hand, it's kind of an "up-down-up" course as David suggests -- lots of elevated tees to fairways down below (some of which have what I'd call a "gathering" element to them -- there are some semi-half-pipe fairways out there) to greens sitting up high. There aren't too many greens that can be approach in a running fashion there (#2 being a notable exception ;D).
-- One of my main concerns remains whether the USGA can replicate the kind of conditions they are finding right now -- I think the USGA and EHills folks must be overjoyed with the firmness and dry-ness of the course right now, but we've had a run of real dry weather for the better part of a month now. And Wisconsin is historically drier in August than in June -- maybe Davis can use his new powers at the USGA to move the US Open back to August. ;)
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Thanks, David.
Erin Hills is way up on my wish list, can't wait to see more of it this weekend.
Go JVB!
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Thanks, David.
Erin Hills is way up on my wish list, can't wait to see more of it this weekend.
Go JVB!
It's worth a trip. I'm fortunate that my girlfriend lived on the North Shore of Chicago at the time, so it was a quick hour and a half drive, but I think a Whistling Straights/Erin Hills trip would be great. I'd add on EH to a WS visit for a hell of a long weekend. The cottages are very cool as well. You really do feel like you're in Ireland.
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David,
You seem fairly well travelled. Would you personally rank EH above places like Pinehurst #2 and Shoreacres?
Phil,
Fair enough. I reserve judgement as I haven't played or seen (besides yesterday's coverage) the latest version of the course. I played it several times in it's earliest incarnation. And I do prefer it to Whistling Straights for reference. But changes to appease the USGA such as increasing green sizes and eliminating blind shots may or may not be progress IMO...
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David,
You seem fairly well travelled. Would you personally rank EH above places like Pinehurst #2 and Shoreacres?
Phil,
Fair enough. I reserve judgement as I haven't played or seen (besides yesterday's coverage) the latest version of the course. I played it several times in it's earliest incarnation. And I do prefer it to Whistling Straights for reference. But changes to appease the USGA such as increasing green sizes and eliminating blind shots may or may not be progress IMO...
Jud:
I think there's a difference between, say, changing the slopes of greens at Merion East at the request of the USGA (awful, in my view) vs. similar kinds of changes at EHills. For better or worse, EHills and their ilk are now the template for courses holding majors -- we'll see alot more of their kind than we will of the Merion's of the world hosting majors. And that means tweaking them at the behest of the blue coats.
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David,
You seem fairly well travelled. Would you personally rank EH above places like Pinehurst #2 and Shoreacres?
This is where I had trouble deciding...I can't say it's better than those courses, but, frankly, I can't say it's worse. It's that good. I should mention that I haven't played the revamped #2, though. I cannot understand though why EH is outside the Top 100. It shouldn't be.
I happen to rank Shoreacres very high because I love Seth Raynor courses, so that might be a bit of my own bias. Shoreacres could never host a US Open, whereas EH will, so make of that what you want. Comparing those two is an apples to oranges problem...
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Davis may just be right on this one. He's saying that it may wind up being one of the great championship tests in golf. In the USGA's argot, this means that Erin Hills has every chance to be a venue that will be viewed as a "great" site for an Amateur, a US Open of other national championships that it puts on. I think it does. It may not be an architectural masterpiece, but then again, not very many architectural masterpieces are appropriate hosts for the US Amateur or the US Open. This course is long, but has enormous setup flexibility. If the wind picks up, it can be incredibly demanding. The greens look like they will handle excessive speeds just fine. And the property is perhaps peerless in its ability to accommodate enormous amounts of spectators and its ability to provide those spectators unencumbered views on virtually every hole on the property. If the USGA thought the first Bethpage Open was a grand slam, this site has every chance to equal or surpass it.
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Good opportunity right now to see some of the elasticity that Terry refers to -- par 4 #4, played at 450 yds for stroke play, set up today at 286 yds with the opportunity to drive the green. Uihlein and Fritelli just showed how the hole has a lot of teeth still at such short yardage. Coverage on the Golf Channel for the next 1-1/2 hours.
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Good opportunity right now to see some of the elasticity that Terry refers to -- par 4 #4, played at 450 yds for stroke play, set up today at 286 yds with the opportunity to drive the green. Uihlein and Fritelli just showed how the hole has a lot of teeth still at such short yardage. Coverage on the Golf Channel for the next 1-1/2 hours.
Playing 4 at just under 300 yds in match play is a fantastic concept. Waiting to see the first guy lay up to wedge range off the tee, don't think its happened yet today.
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Good opportunity right now to see some of the elasticity that Terry refers to -- par 4 #4, played at 450 yds for stroke play, set up today at 286 yds with the opportunity to drive the green. Uihlein and Fritelli just showed how the hole has a lot of teeth still at such short yardage. Coverage on the Golf Channel for the next 1-1/2 hours.
Playing 4 at just under 300 yds in match play is a fantastic concept. Waiting to see the first guy lay up to wedge range off the tee, don't think its happened yet today.
That's what happens when you only have one mid-am guy make match-play. :D Several folks butchering the hole via driver off the tee, when that pin to that green seems receptive to a wedge from the fairway.
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That is one downside - it seems like EH favors younger bombers tremendously. However, one would've expected more mid-ams to have a shot at making the field considering Blue Mound was only 6600 yds.
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Those interested in the perspectives on the courses and the event from a 52-year old in the qualifying field might want to check out Rand Haag's blog:
www.randyhaag.com
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Those interested in the perspectives on the courses and the event from a 52-year old in the qualifying field might want to check out Rand Haag's blog:
www.randyhaag.com
Great read - he has quite the CV.
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Mike Davis goes over the "tweaks" he envisions for Erin Hills for the US Open:
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/128405428.html
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Mike Davis goes over the "tweaks" he envisions for Erin Hills for the US Open:
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/128405428.html
Phil, thanks for the link, pretty interesting.
Regarding play yesterday I was surprised to see the tee up on #4. When I played EH last Fall the pin on 4 was over to the right and there wasn't much room there at all to keep the ball on the green. A little short and the ball was coming back at you, but it was also very easy to get it past the hole and roll off the back. I wondered at the time when the hole was cut over there how it would play at the US Open when the greens would be really fast and thought it might be too severe especially for a hole that can play pretty long. From TV yesterday it looked like this is the pin they were playing and they played the hole up at under 300 yards which would make that hole location much more accessible with a wedge. Curious to see if they do the same at the US Open or if they'll use the hole at its full length when the hole is over there.
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Mike Davis goes over the "tweaks" he envisions for Erin Hills for the US Open:
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/128405428.html
Some interesting stuff in there:
On the first hole:
The back one, they can go ahead and bulldoze because we’ll never use it."
That's what they said about 7500 yard courses back in 2000! ;)
On what I thought to be probably the weakest hole:
No. 8, par-4: "Surprised me. I was very concerned that 8 wouldn’t play right and it’s played great."
On 14:
No. 14, par-5: "There are going to be some big changes for the Open.
And on 16:
No. 16, par-3: "Has been a very pleasant surprise. I think that hole has played beautifully. We have a new tee that’s up a little bit to the left; when we have it there in match play it will be a partially blind shot where you just see the top of the flag. You don’t see the whole flagstick, which is kind of neat."
Overall, does Mike Davis play architect a little too much??
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Jeff:
That is a pretty severe pin position on #4 -- that's a new green (the original was a punchbowl some 30-40 yds closer to the tee) that sits on a small shelf, with a pretty sharp back-slope, and the green is not that deep, esp. on that right side (as the golfer is looking at it from the fairway). I hadn't thought of a short tee on #4, but looking back at some photo threads, the hole lends itself to that, because of that fronting central bunker and the upslope of the fairway leading up to the green. I would've liked to see whether any of the guys playing yesterday geared down and played it 5-iron/wedge; I'm not sure that's in their DNA. :D It's a bit less severe on the left side of that green, which is where they'll place the pin most days I'd think when the hole plays at its usual 450 yds.
Pat:
I hope to post some pics from some of the EHills threads that illustrate some of Davis' recommended changes. My initial thoughts: #3 had easily the coolest-looking green out there, but maybe it's too severe (it was changed at the behest of the USGA to tie it closer to the bunkers fronting the green); you'd have to watch it pretty closely for a few days to see the range of putts there. I like his thinking on #5, although if I read Davis correctly, he's talking about a back tee on the right side of the fairway, as opposed to the current one, which is high up on a hill on the left side of the fairway. Do they have the room for that? I really like this thinking on #16.
Yes, I think Davis tends to play more big-picture architect than Meeks, who seemed more concerned about conditions and set-up (rough, green speed, pin positions) than the architectural nuances of holes. But, I also think he feels a particular closeness to EHills on this issue; he's been involved in the changes here since the very beginning -- different than, say, Chambers Bay.
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I think some of Davis' tweaks are a bit over the top and nit-picky. I might argue that a sign of great course architecture is that there is an element of chaos in the design - not everything is perfectly engineered. Just as minimalist designers let the natural contours of the land dictate the layout (which are far from "perfect"), so too should an architect allow for some shots that are either "boring" or a little "bizarre." It's part of the fun. Davis seems hellbent on making every hole play as if it were the ONE best hole on the course. That's why they have 18 of them. Having one somewhat easy, straight tee shot isn't necessarily a bad thing.
We have a word for when every shot it "unique" - gimmicky.
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A solid recap of yesterday's play, including the terrific match between Cantlay and Henley that included a pitch-in from Cantlay on 17 to extend the match, and dueling eagle putts on the 19th hole to keep it going as well. A very good contest in the round of 32:
http://host.madison.com/sports/golf/article_1feee29e-cf4b-11e0-b457-001cc4c002e0.html
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A solid recap of yesterday's play, including the terrific match between Cantlay and Henley that included a pitch-in from Cantlay on 17 to extend the match, and dueling eagle putts on the 19th hole to keep it going as well. A very good contest in the round of 32:
http://host.madison.com/sports/golf/article_1feee29e-cf4b-11e0-b457-001cc4c002e0.html
Wow...that's incredible golf over a very difficult course.
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David:
In Davis' defense (and I don't defend him that often here ;)), I think he's trying to add some element of choice and thought to tee shots, esp. the par 5s. If you look at his specific ideas on changes:
-- He views #3 green as perhaps too severe and gimmicky;
-- He wants to add some challenge to the tee shot at the long par 4 5th (I had the same thoughts when I toured the course last year, in that even the back-tee shot from high on that hill didn't look all that difficult for the top players);
-- He seems to want to create different ways to attack the two par 5s -- #s 7 and 14 -- that create risk for those going for it in two, yet provides a safe corridor for those playing it conventionally.
-- I think he's right on #15; the green surrounds are too severe it seems to have a go at that hole with driver. Needs to play @ 275-300 for that to be an option? But that's a hole original to the design; Davis has had little to do with it since its inception.
-- He's on target with #16 -- a hole in which the greensite (not quite a punch-bowl, but it's a deep green sunk into its surrounds) lends itself to a blind or semi-blind tee shot.
-- He seems to want to do something similar with #17 as #5 -- create a bit more challenge to the tee shot, not simply make the hole play longer.
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Phil:
I don't disagree with him on the bulk of the changes. My comment, more generally, was that I think the USGA has a habit of nitpicking and making changes that aren't necessarily improvements.
I'm not sure about #15. I played it from a back tee so going for it wasn't an option, but I would've laid up anyway. I thought it was an interesting hole because a well-played layup over/around the high-walled fairway bunkers left an awkward approach. I have no problem with that on such a short hole. It was a unique challenge because, normally, I'd try to never leave myself that second shot. It's severely uphill, from an odd yardage and it was very difficult for me to gauge the distance. I believe I hit it 20 feet, 2 putted and was very happy to escape with a par. I didn't think it needed to be driveable to be an interesting short hole. Not every short hole has to be driveable. What happened to all the interesting 350-375 yard par 4's? I always loved #3 at Augusta.
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David:
You may be right about that -- that's a good thought about the short but not drivable par 4 with the awkward chip. I thought from the first time I saw that hole that it was really severe in terms of trying to drive the green (which I think was the original intent of the hole).
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Pat,
You asked, "Does Mike Davis play architect too much?" I suppose that's a legitimate question, even if what he's really doing is trying to take advantage of the architecture in order to be more creative with his setup decisions. I don't know if Davis would claim enough knowledge about course architecture to "play architect", but he sure knows enough about hosting national championships and enough about architecture to be a valuable source of information. In the case of Erin Hills, a course that is still embryonic as compared to some of the other places that host USGA championships, I am guessing that he had some significant input into some architectural changes. And like Rees Jones' work with other hosts of US Opens, I'm sure that the architect and owner at Erin Hills did their best to implement some of his recommendations. Nothing wrong with that, since it is the USGA that is going to promote the heck out of the otherwise unknown course.
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I guess I don't really have a problem with EH catering to the whims of the USGA. The course is a work in progress and this is their best chance financially to garner significant publicity in the distant suburbs of Milwaukee. I just wonder how many non-sticks will travel to Erin, WI and pony up for a difficult walk. I guess there's a bit of overflow traffic from Whistling Straights but I'd guess there's plenty of tee times available at the other Kohler courses (and Lawsonia for that matter.)
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David:
You may be right about that -- that's a good thought about the short but not drivable par 4 with the awkward chip. I thought from the first time I saw that hole that it was really severe in terms of trying to drive the green (which I think was the original intent of the hole).
I think you're 100% correct that it was originally intended to be driveable, but it's VERY severe. It's not worth a chance. However, I like it as an awkward chip. How often from 60-70 yds are pros going to struggle to put the ball inside 30 ft....not often, but they will there.
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Pat,
You asked, "Does Mike Davis play architect too much?" I suppose that's a legitimate question, even if what he's really doing is trying to take advantage of the architecture in order to be more creative with his setup decisions. I don't know if Davis would claim enough knowledge about course architecture to "play architect", but he sure knows enough about hosting national championships and enough about architecture to be a valuable source of information. In the case of Erin Hills, a course that is still embryonic as compared to some of the other places that host USGA championships, I am guessing that he had some significant input into some architectural changes. And like Rees Jones' work with other hosts of US Opens, I'm sure that the architect and owner at Erin Hills did their best to implement some of his recommendations. Nothing wrong with that, since it is the USGA that is going to promote the heck out of the otherwise unknown course.
Terry,
I understand. And perhaps this is really the future of the Open host courses as I can't imagine him making the same comments so loosely at Merion, Oakmont, Olympia Fields, etc. What struck me was just how matter-of-fact his comments were, as if changing the fairway contours was an easy fix.
That being said, I thought Erin Hills looked good yesterday in the coverage I saw, and was interesting to watch. As long as the winning score is reasonable and the Championship is a success financially, I can see them going back to Erin Hills once a decade.
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It's remarkable that for a long time, this course promoted the fact that little or no dirt was moved during its construction. Now I can't keep the multiple iterations straight in my head.
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Mike Davis goes over the "tweaks" he envisions for Erin Hills for the US Open:
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/128405428.html
In an effort to go completely over the top ;D I thought it might be helpful to depict some of the holes Davis talks about with photos; all photos taken from EH threads posted by myself and Joe Bausch:
Hole #1 (par 5 that played at 560 yds for stroke play and can be pushed back to 637 yds).
Davis: No. 1, par-5: "We will use not only the tee we used for (U.S. Amateur) stroke play (qualifying) for the U.S. Open, but we’ll go one back or maybe even build one in between. Because I think that that tee probably played a touch short. The back one, they can go ahead and bulldoze because we’ll never use it."
Here's the tee likely to be bull-dozed:
The hole can be played from the tips at 637 yards; here’s the tee shot from the very back tees. The green sits just above the farthest-right blue umbrella, middle-left of picture.
(http://i475.photobucket.com/albums/rr120/philmcdade/erinhills/eirnhills099.jpg)
Hole #3 (a long par 4 that can play as far as 500 yds.)
Davis: "I would say if I had a concern about a green, the third green is the one. I’ve had that concern all along and I think this week kind of proved that out."
A look back at the 3rd, with its two-tiered green (one of the larger ones on the course). This green was also expanded at the request of the USGA to be closer to the fronting bunkers.
(http://i475.photobucket.com/albums/rr120/philmcdade/erinhills/eirnhills125.jpg)
(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/erinhills/3e.jpg)
Hole #5 (another long par 4 that can play @ 500 yds)
Davis: "This was the one that surprised me. Here’s a hole that’s 500 yards where I do think we need to do something with the drive zone because I think that that one, the kids were just bombing it down the left side and you were watching them hit at most a mid-iron into the green. So I think shifting (the tee) slightly to the player’s right is going to make them think a little bit more off the tee and bring that bowl that’s kind of short-right much more into play."
The fairway on this hole has been shifted left; from the way-back (U.S. Open) elevated tee, the shot is over a large area of native grass to a fairway that runs off to the left. The fairway of the 7th hole, which runs in the opposite direction of the 5th, can be seen to the left.
(http://i475.photobucket.com/albums/rr120/philmcdade/erinhills/eirnhills142.jpg)
A closer look at the fairway contours; I think Davis wants to bring in the blind element for the approach shot that comes from being on the right side of the fairway.
(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/erinhills/5a.jpg)
Hole #7 (par 5 of 600+ yards that plays over the NLE Dell hole)
Davis: "The par-5, I think, needs something else in the drive zone because again I think you can stand up there and almost not think and wail on it. The rest of the hole played great."
From the back tee:
(http://i475.photobucket.com/albums/rr120/philmcdade/erinhills/eirnhills150.jpg)
LZ:
(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/erinhills/7b.jpg)
A look back:
(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/erinhills/7e.jpg)
Hole #14 (another long par 5 that can play 600+ yds)
Davis: "There are going to be some big changes for the Open. That’s one where we really want to make it a risk-reward par-5 and right now it’s too long from the tee we’re playing and it would be way too short from the next tee up. There’s like 80 yards difference between those two tees. So we’re going to try to get a tee in there. And then the area that’s short-right of the green and to the right in the drive zone, we’re going to make that much more penal. So you’re either going to play it as a three-shotter going up the left or you try to carry it but if you don’t carry it and make it you’re going to be in trouble. We’ll get that right. It’s nobody’s fault, but that’s not quite done yet. It’s a work in progress."
Two looks at the fairway landing area.
(http://i475.photobucket.com/albums/rr120/philmcdade/erinhills/eirnhills190.jpg)
(http://i475.photobucket.com/albums/rr120/philmcdade/erinhills/eirnhills191.jpg)
Two more looks at the fairway; sounds like Davis wants to bring these fairway bunkers more into play by building a tee at @ 540-550 yds (it can play as far back as 614; played at 586 during stroke play):
(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/erinhills/14a.jpg)
From Joe's comments: These bunkers can't really be challenged from the back tees, but can be from the middle tees:
(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/erinhills/14b.jpg)
Hole #15 (shortish par 4 originally designed as a possible driveable par 4; played at 370 yds for stroke play. Back tee is the highest point of the course).
Davis: "This is a hole where I don’t think we know yet how it will play for the Open. We’re going to start using the up tee some for match play and I’m convinced that Tour-level players will never try to drive that green if you put a driver in their hands. So I think we’re going to have to go down a couple tees and see what they do with 3-woods – for some of the kids maybe even less than 3-wood."
(http://i475.photobucket.com/albums/rr120/philmcdade/erinhills/eirnhills193.jpg)
(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/erinhills/15a.jpg)
(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/erinhills/15b.jpg)
Hole #16 (mid-range par 3)
Davis: "Has been a very pleasant surprise. I think that hole has played beautifully. We have a new tee that’s up a little bit to the left; when we have it there in match play it will be a partially blind shot where you just see the top of the flag. You don’t see the whole flagstick, which is kind of neat."
Note my original comments from the EH thread of a year ago ;D
I actually prefer this tee (171 yards, according to the yardage marker), as the glacial mound hides a good portion of the green and would make a flag on the back (and even middle) portion of the green invisible. For perspective, the green extends as far back as a line extended down from the third large oak tree from the right.
(http://i475.photobucket.com/albums/rr120/philmcdade/erinhills/eirnhills196.jpg)
A look back; the tee that Davis talks about is to the right of the small V-shaped notch in the landscape just to the right of the line of tee boxes:
(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/erinhills/16c.jpg)
Hole #17 (a par 4 that can play @ 480 yds)
Davis: "Here’s a hole that’s 509 yards and I said to myself, ‘I know what’s going to happen. They’re going to take a long hole and they’re going to make it into a short hole.’ Because that hole always plays straight downwind. It’s a straight shot, which for good players, they can just bomb it. They don’t have to think about a certain angle or movement to the fairway. There’s one that I think for the Open, a new teeing ground that’s slightly offset to the player’s left would make you think more about, ‘OK, if I hit it on this angle I’ve got to hit it a certain distance but if I hit it too far it’s going to go through the fairway.’ I think there’s some other adjustments to 17, too, with the mow lines, particularly up near the green that we want to create more closely mown – particularly short-left where you can bounce your shot on."
This is the offset back tee that I think Davis references, but maybe he wants a tee more off-set to the left than this one; there's room for it from just behind the 16th green:
(http://i475.photobucket.com/albums/rr120/philmcdade/erinhills/eirnhills135.jpg)
A look back at the fairway; Davis may want a tee located (looking at the picture) just to the left of the walking path, on the other side of the small U-shaped dip in the land there.
(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/erinhills/17d.jpg)
Two looks at the green surrounds:
(http://i475.photobucket.com/albums/rr120/philmcdade/erinhills/eirnhills141.jpg)
(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/erinhills/17f.jpg)
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Great pictures! Thanks for sharing them. I think the pictures of 15 really show what a tough short hole it is as a NON-driveable par 4. The center bunker is right in the middle of the landing area. It divides the fairway into three little spots. The tee shot is almost like playing to a par 3. You have to pick which small section of the fairway to hit to. You can bail right, but you leave a longer shot. I love it with the tees back.
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It's remarkable that for a long time, this course promoted the fact that little or no dirt was moved during its construction. Now I can't keep the multiple iterations straight in my head.
Jim:
They really have moved very little dirt out there. There has been shaping of greens, of course, but to use one example: the 4th green was originally located in a natural depression at the end of the fairway; it's now located on a natural shelf that sits above the fairway. Big change, yes; but not a lot of dirt moving other than the shaping of the green there. The single biggest change from its original conception to now is the addition of really challenging bunkering. Alot of the changes Davis talks about it are tees that will simply be located in somewhat different spots than now, and new tees require the least amount of dirt moving as anything.
It's a gigantic piece of land, and you can do a lot with it -- one of the reasons I think Davis really likes it.
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No comment on the 2nd hole? The one with the teeny green?
I guess it was either playable or if not Mike liked seeing them struggle and take bogeys.
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No comment on the 2nd hole? The one with the teeny green?
I guess it was either playable or if not Mike liked seeing them struggle and take bogeys.
Kalen:
See post #54 on this thread, particularly the 4th point. #2 appears to play as designed -- a short, gambling par where birdies and even the occasional eagle is possible, but also frought with some danger. Played just slightly over par (4.016) during stroke play. Davis likes it; he should -- it's one of the best holes out there. ;)
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No comment on the 2nd hole? The one with the teeny green?
I guess it was either playable or if not Mike liked seeing them struggle and take bogeys.
Kalen:
See post #54 on this thread, particularly the 4th point. #2 appears to play as designed -- a short, gambling par where birdies and even the occasional eagle is possible, but also frought with some danger. Played just slightly over par (4.016) during stroke play. Davis likes it; he should -- it's one of the best holes out there. ;)
Thanks Phil,
I must have skipped right over that bit when you 1st posted it. Sounds like they have what they want then.
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Field report, having just returned from Saturday's semi's:
-- Anyone interested in seeing truly fast and firm conditions should head out to EHills, either tomorrow for the finals or soon after, before fall rains hit. This is as ideal of a maintenance meld I've seen on a course -- fescue fairways a light shade of green, yellow/tan in sports, not brown, nothing burned out, and a firmness to both the fairways and greens that demanded players take into account the often-significant rollouts of shots.
-- The weather has been very good, and -- ideally -- shifting winds have significantly changed how some holes play. This week has seen a traditional seasonal wind out of the south/southwest, a brisk wind out of the north, and today -- unusually so, because you don't see it that often in these parts -- a funky wind out of the northeast. From both a weather and wind perspective, this week has been ideal for showing off how an "inland" links-like course can play.
-- The course gets the US Open in six years, and seems likely to be put into some kind of US Open rota, given Mike Davis' obvious love of the place. But it should definitely earn a spot on a permanent rotation to host the US Amateur, and it should consider hosting other kinds of match-play tournaments (like the Mid-Am). The course's elasticity and flexible set-up makes it ideal for match-play; today's set-up featured two driveable par 4s among the first four holes of play, two reachable par 5s (irons for second into one of them), and two par 4s at 500+ yards into the wind that required (or would've; neither match got to hole #17 today) woods for second shots. It's almost as if Davis and the USGA set-up folks don't really care about par at this course, and simply want to offer up a mix of strategies, choices, and shots available to the players. It really works for match play.
-- Those who are fans of other links-like courses built in recent years (the Bandon courses, Sand Hills, Ballyneal) yet still skeptical of EHills (paging Mr. 155-holer ;)) should make a trip to see how EH plays in its current conditions. Long rollouts (the John Kirk theory of looong shots is in play all the time here), pinball-like bounces, contours affecting play (and needing to be taken into consideration) and providing options about how to attack a hole -- all of those are evident throughout EHills. I was a bit skeptical of the course when I first encountered it -- wet -- last year; when dry, firm and fast -- this is a spectacular course.
-- The holes that initially appealed to me when I first visited the course -- #s 2, 8, 9, and 12 -- still stand out (for my tastes) as first-rate holes, with some options about how they can be played (2, notably) or how they can play in varied conditions. Hole #8, a roller coaster of a par 4, has had players with second shots ranging from wedge to fairway wood this week. A close inspection of #9 -- a tough little downhill par 3 -- reveals just how varied the hole can play simply through the choice of the teeing box. Five separate teeing areas range in yardage from the low 130s to mid-160s, with a teeing width of some 70 yards.
-- I thought the greens a bit tame upon initial inspection last year; I'd amend that now, and a closer look reveals a lot of greens with a lot of interest, and, running as fast as they are this week, full of trouble. Greens at #7, 9 and 13 all feature interesting internal contours, subtle slopes (9 is really tilted from front to back, which you really can't see unless you're standing at the very front of the green), and some really challenging pin positions. The green at #3, which Davis this week suggested might be tamed, is quite severe.
-- I still wonder about hole #15, a shortish par 4 that plays from a tee at the highest point of the course and was designed, in part, to be driveable. It all just seems a bit busy for my tastes, and most players simply played hybrid out to a wide, flat area of the fairway right of all the trouble, with a little wedge in. Dramatic looking, but somewhat dull in how it's played. (Senior, who is really long and was down 3 with 4 to play today, tried to drive the green today, and had the benefit of an ideal helping wind. He didn't make it.)
As for tomorrow's match -- Cantlay is the real deal. Maybe 150 pounds sopping wet, he hits it a ton (his drive at the par 5 #7 rolled out at 403 yds), has a deft short game, and is a steely putter. A very low-key demeanor -- he makes everything look pretty simple, like this is the most natural thing he could be doing. But beware Kraft in tomorrow's final -- dude's got one hot putter. :D
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Enjoyed a great day at Erin Hills following the Cantlay-Russell match. Phil described the course and how it's playing in great detail. I haven't been on the course since playing it in 2009. It looks quite different, with countless trees removed, assorted new bunkers courtesy of Mr. Lang, greens enlarged, new tee boxes, etc.
It played fast and firm. Greens were running quick -- maybe 13 or so. Cantlay would hit a putt that looked like it would stop 4 feet from the hole and it would run by 4 feet.
When walking the course as a spectator, it's easier to see the massive size of the course. The tremendous room between fairways and behind the greens. The USGA can fit grandstands practically wherever they want. There's no shortage of room for hospitality tents ala Merion.
I've attended the last four US Opens and after today am more excited about 2017 at Erin Hills than I was when the course was first awarded the tournament. The only foreseen challenge will be 25,000 cars descending down county roads each day.
Beyond the course, Cantlay has some serious game. While he didn't drop too many putts today, he can hit it a mile and has a deft short game. Russell hung in the best he could but didn't hit enough greens to make more than one birdie (I believe). I'm looking forward to watching Cantlay-Kraft on Sunday, though it will be on my TV.
Jeff:
That is a pretty severe pin position on #4 -- that's a new green (the original was a punchbowl some 30-40 yds closer to the tee) that sits on a small shelf, with a pretty sharp back-slope, and the green is not that deep, esp. on that right side (as the golfer is looking at it from the fairway). I hadn't thought of a short tee on #4, but looking back at some photo threads, the hole lends itself to that, because of that fronting central bunker and the upslope of the fairway leading up to the green. I would've liked to see whether any of the guys playing yesterday geared down and played it 5-iron/wedge; I'm not sure that's in their DNA. :D It's a bit less severe on the left side of that green, which is where they'll place the pin most days I'd think when the hole plays at its usual 450 yds.
The tee on #4 was actually up on Saturday and played around 280, with the pin front left. Cantlay played first, and hit a medium iron that landed 20 yards short of the centerline bunker and rolled out until it crawled into it. Russell also grabbed an iron and ended up short of the bunker. Both hit their approaches on the green, with Cantlay hitting a nice wedge from a the downslope of the bunker. If memory serves, Russell two-putted for par while Cantlay three-putted.
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Phil,
Great pics.
I was fortunate to play EH twice before the initial changes, and I found the course superb. Do you find the recent changes enhance EH overall? Admittedly the old green on #2 was too small, but I had a soft spot for the dell hole. It was really neat.
Having played Chambers Bay quite a bit this year it's amazing the similarities that these courses have. I'm interested to see how they both play for the Open; should be perfect. I'll try and catch some of the final tomorrow.
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Town of Erin -- Mike Davis, executive director of the United States Golf Association, went over "minor" changes he foresees at Erin Hills before the 2017 U.S. Open.
Davis already considers the 6-year-old public course to be among the finest championship tests in America but has learned a lot about Erin Hills at the U.S. Amateur this week.
He went over the changes he envisions over the next few years with me. For you golf architecture geeks, here's his hole-by-hole analysis:
No. 1, par-5: "We will use not only the tee we used for (U.S. Amateur) stroke play (qualifying) for the U.S. Open, but we’ll go one back or maybe even build one in between. Because I think that that tee probably played a touch short. The back one, they can go ahead and bulldoze because we’ll never use it."
No. 2, par-4: "It played beautifully. I would make some adjustments in the fairway contour but that will be an awesome hole for the U.S. Open with risk-reward."
No. 3, par-4: "I would say if I had a concern about a green, the third green is the one. I’ve had that concern all along and I think this week kind of proved that out."
No. 4, par-4: "This was a new hole, the green set-up there. That one had me concerned and I watched it this week and it’s wonderful. One of the great changes in this latest renovation."
No. 5, par-4: "This was the one that surprised me. Here’s a hole that’s 500 yards where I do think we need to do something with the drive zone because I think that that one, the kids were just bombing it down the left side and you were watching them hit at most a mid-iron into the green. So I think shifting (the tee) slightly to the player’s right is going to make them think a little bit more off the tee and bring that bowl that’s kind of short-right much more into play."
No. 6, par-3: "Played beautifully."
No. 7, par-5: "The par-5, I think, needs something else in the drive zone because again I think you can stand up there and almost not think and wail on it. The rest of the hole played great."
No. 8, par-4: "Surprised me. I was very concerned that 8 wouldn’t play right and it’s played great."
No. 9, par-3: "That green concerned me. But it’s been awesome. It’s a 140-yard shot downhill but that hole was good. I love the fact that you’ve got a big golf course but then you’ve got a tiny little shot with the scariest green on the course. You really have to know what you’re doing, particularly if you get it firm."
No. 10, par-4: 'This was another one where, I’ll be honest, I wasn’t sure how it was going to play. That fairway is 60-some yards wide and going into it I couldn’t figure out what do we need to do with it. I think in hindsight it’s perfect the way it is because if you play it right and catch that bowl and go down you pick up an extra probably 30 yards. But you’re down in this hole and you’re trying to hit up; the angle’s not as good. But if you play it out to the left, it's a much longer shot but a better angle. I’m convinced that, you know what, the U.S. Open, that’s going to be a 60-, 65-yard wide fairway and it will play marvelously. I was thinking about narrowing it either from the right or the left and it’s good the way it is."
No. 11, par-4: "Played well.".
No. 12, par-4: "It has played very good. We were nervous in stroke play to play it back for fear that some people wouldn’t get to the fairway. But I think that can be played from the back tee. That’s a very unique hole."
No. 13, par-3: "Played well."
No. 14, par-5: "There are going to be some big changes for the Open. That’s one where we really want to make it a risk-reward par-5 and right now it’s too long from the tee we’re playing and it would be way too short from the next tee up. There’s like 80 yards difference between those two tees. So we’re going to try to get a tee in there. And then the area that’s short-right of the green and to the right in the drive zone, we’re going to make that much more penal. So you’re either going to play it as a three-shotter going up the left or you try to carry it but if you don’t carry it and make it you’re going to be in trouble. We’ll get that right. It’s nobody’s fault, but that’s not quite done yet. It’s a work in progress."
No. 15, par-4: "This is a hole where I don’t think we know yet how it will play for the Open. We’re going to start using the up tee some for match play and I’m convinced that Tour-level players will never try to drive that green if you put a driver in their hands. So I think we’re going to have to go down a couple tees and see what they do with 3-woods – for some of the kids maybe even less than 3-wood."
No. 16, par-3: "Has been a very pleasant surprise. I think that hole has played beautifully. We have a new tee that’s up a little bit to the left; when we have it there in match play it will be a partially blind shot where you just see the top of the flag. You don’t see the whole flagstick, which is kind of neat."
No. 17, par-4: "Here’s a hole that’s 509 yards and I said to myself, ‘I know what’s going to happen. They’re going to take a long hole and they’re going to make it into a short hole.’ Because that hole always plays straight downwind. It’s a straight shot, which for good players, they can just bomb it. They don’t have to think about a certain angle or movement to the fairway. There’s one that I think for the Open, a new teeing ground that’s slightly offset to the player’s left would make you think more about, ‘OK, if I hit it on this angle I’ve got to hit it a certain distance but if I hit it too far it’s going to go through the fairway.’ I think there’s some other adjustments to 17, too, with the mow lines, particularly up near the green that we want to create more closely mown – particularly short-left where you can bounce your shot on."
No. 18, par-5: "I think 18 is one of the great finishes in golf. I think that is an awesome hole. Other than just a little bit of a fairway adjustment there, I think that is going to be one of the great closing holes for the U.S. Open that we have. I think it gives a guy a chance because that should play straight downwind. You can get there in two but you can get yourself in trouble, too."
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Walked the morning round of the finals. It was my first viewing of Erin Hills, so I don't have the perspective (baggage) from past iterations. I was very impressed with the course from the perspective of a championship venue. I enjoyed seeing the finalists hitting hybrids and long irons into the par 4s for approaches. The turf conditions were PERFECT, very firm and fast.
My expectations were low due to a lot of the criticism the course has received on this DG. I was pleasantly surprised.
Brad
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Walked the morning round of the finals. It was my first viewing of Erin Hills, so I don't have the perspective (baggage) from past iterations. I was very impressed with the course from the perspective of a championship venue. I enjoyed seeing the finalists hitting hybrids and long irons into the par 4s for approaches. The turf conditions were PERFECT, very firm and fast.
My expectations were low due to slot of the criticism the course has received on this DG. I was pleasantly surprised.
Brad
I had somewhat muted expectations before I played Erin Hills last fall but I'm a big fan now.
In my judgment this championship has demonstrated that Erin Hills does have every chance to become an instant classic on the national stage. The conditions have been just perfect with the course getting crunchier and crustier by the day. There have been some quirky bounces and nutty runouts on the green but nothing like we saw last year at Chambers Bay. To me this course takes some elements of minimalism adds muscle and some shotmaking demands off the tee with the end result being a pluperfect stage for amateur and professional golf.
In short, an absolute home run that could develop into a grandslam when the big one rolls into those rolling hills six years hence.
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Phil,
Great pics.
I was fortunate to play EH twice before the initial changes, and I found the course superb. Do you find the recent changes enhance EH overall? Admittedly the old green on #2 was too small, but I had a soft spot for the dell hole. It was really neat.
Having played Chambers Bay quite a bit this year it's amazing the similarities that these courses have. I'm interested to see how they both play for the Open; should be perfect. I'll try and catch some of the final tomorrow.
Brent:
I think one's perspective on EHills depends in large part on how you view for the course for what it's trying to be. Initially, it was kind of an ultra-minimalist course -- literally, something in which fairways and greens were routed and found, with very little earth moved to accomodate the terrain there. I still think that's what Whitten envisioned for the whole thing. From that perspective, the loss of the Dell is a bummer. But -- it was the second of two consecutive par 3s (which, I don't think the USGA would've gone for), it was a little gimmicky (not the blindness, but the rather simple approach to the hole -- compare it to #9, a real butt-puckerer of a hole), and it was pretty tame -- hard to imagine much worse than bogey being made there.
The single biggest change out there, I'd argue, is the addition of all those bunkers, and that's what makes that course worthy of holding a US Open (maybe worthy is the wrong word; "tough enough" might be a better way of putting it). It now "looks" like a top-tier championship course, and can probably play like it. Before -- I'm not so sure. I think many of the changes there have generally improved the course, but they have also made it more conventional in how it plays.
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I for one love what I saw on TV.
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Glad to see all the positive reviews. I played version 1.0 about 4 years ago (actually I remember getting in the car afterwards to drive to Lawsonia and hearing that Brett Favre had decided to "unretire" for the first time. Needless to say that was big news on Wisconsin sports talk radio...)
Loved the course then and I'm really looking forward to playing it again. The new 10th looks like a great long par 4. With all the talk about bunkers being added everywhere, I was a little worried it would look too busy. But it appeared that they got it right this time.
What more can you ask for as far as championship golf (especially on this site)? Firm and fast, lots of variety in the par 4s, variable winds, holes that make the player think, holes that for the most part did not require much movement of dirt, etc....
Hopefully, the people complaining that they should have stopped tinkering with the course so much over the past few years saw the end result this week with an open mind. It's a good course, not just for the "pros" but for everyone.
I'm looking forward to another double dose of Erin Hills and Lawsonia next summer!
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I'm looking forward to another double dose of Erin Hills and Lawsonia next summer!
Me too. When you going?! ;)
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I agree with you, Terry. It was a colossal home run. Wish I could say the same for NBC's 3-hour slobbering love affair with Patrick Cantlay ...who lost by the way...although somebody probably still needs to convince Dan Hicks, Gary Kock and Roger Maltbie of that fact. Ugh.
Like most journalists they sounded a little lazy by focusing on the chosen one but who can blame them? Cantlay is the real deal. Four PGA starts and all in top 25? Pretty solid. He lost at the Western Am on the last hole as well. My only question is whether he played too much this summer. Might have shown some signs of burnout recently.
But how about that no-effort golf swing of Cantlay? Combine it with Kraft's putting stroke and you'd have an amazing golf cyborg!
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Count me in the group who also generally loved what I saw out there.
The only thing that seemed somewhat off-putting was the massively long slog of par 4s, (15 being the exception, more on that later). It seemed almost every par was 450+? Was that because all of the landing areas for these guys featured a downslope/speed slot so they put the tees way back to compensate?
P.S. I really loved how a short little 253 yard par 4 completely confounded these guys. The hole was won with a par and only then because the guy hit a terrific texas wedge from off the green out of a little low area. Either way, it was odd how both of these guys looked like they had no freaking clue on what to do on that hole. Cantalay hits 8 iron off the tee and still goes in a bunker...wtf?
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I enjoyed what little I got to see this weekend. The 675 yd 18th seemed like a beast.
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No Kalen, those long par 4s largely brought the fairway bunkering into play. There were some speed slots, but I can't tell you how many 3 iron/hybrid second shots these guys hit into the par 4s. Count me as a fan of that. I thought that the treehouse (a.k.a. Beard-Pullers Anonymous) generally lamented the lack of long approaches into par 4s with the modern game. Its always been a tough group to please I guess.
I drank the "prevailing GCA wisdom" Kool-Aid and have ignored the course until today's matches, and I regret doing so. It is a man-sized course (kinda like Bethpage is/was?) that many people will ding due to its difficulty. There's nothing quaint about it. The criticisms levied because of the marketing drivel about minimalism are graduate level beard pulling junk. Who cares how the course was made, as long as the final product is great? The "minimalism" inflation that is the in thing is overhyped. Heck, maybe the next "minimalist course" will only move dirt with tweezers, until the next one comes along and uses laster dissecting microscopes to move each individual grain of sand.
I'll get off my soapbox before my Unibomber manifesto-esque essay on how this group simultaneously raised and ruined my appreciation of the game gathers any steam.
Brad
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Who cares how the course was made, as long as the final product is great? The "minimalism" inflation that is the in thing is overhyped. Heck, maybe the next "minimalist course" will only move dirt with tweezers, until the next one comes along and uses laster dissecting microscopes to move each individual grain of sand.
Brad,
I think clients care. I think the consumers paying greens fees care. Indirectly at least. I can identify with your angst over the "in" thing. But in this case, the tenets of golf architecture that the most successful minimalists have brought into the mainstream--again--aren't just product differentiation and marketing drivel. I think the proof is in the pudding.
But if you're game, I'd love to see your manifesto.
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Ben,
If someone magically recreated Ballyneal molecule for molecule in Vegas, it wouldn't provide you the same experience? I (by and large) appreciate the products of the modern minimal design as much as anyone else here, but its not because of the PROCESS, its because of the PRODUCT.
Brad
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...but its not because of the PROCESS, its because of the PRODUCT.
Brad
Brad,
Isn't that what got us into this whole mess of over leveraged golf courses and third owners being the only profitable ones?
The process matters. It has to. Your argument holds water in a vacuum. But I don't see anyone recreating Sand Hills in Phoenix. That's because it's stupid to try and do so. Minimalism works on flat sites too. Check out Talking Stick North or The Rawls Course. It's not about how much dirt you move. That's the biggest misconception about minimalism.
The best practitioners are the ones that wouldn't put Ballyneal in Vegas.
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I'm not sure I am getting the gist of your comments, Brad. I agree that minimalism for minimalism's sake isn't the be all and end all path to creating a great golf course, necessarily. In fact, unless I mis-remember, the early commentary on EH was a debate of how great it was due to the relatively strict adherence to minimalism, or where so many blind drumlins were not "melted down" (as the Doak team refers to their work at Ballyneal) and that it was unplayable. I remember Jason Blaseburg and his wife had enjoyed a round or two soon after it opened, his high praise, and the argument was that if you played the proper up tees, it wasn't so overwhelming, not even for his wife. Others, particularly a fellow whose opinion I value very much and an excellent player panned it. There was some supported criticism I heard 3rd hand from certain conversations and activity of someone 'very close' to the construction operation that was quite revealing in my view.
The general criticism by others that I had heard prior to going there myself was unless you played with a caddie and forecaddie aid, you may loose a couple sleeves or more of balls in the native. The first several months, the native was in play from mowing lines that were way too narrow. By the time I played it with Mike Hendren, they had bitten the bullet and had literally green chopped about 6-8 yards a side more of the native down to a rough unsightly cut of weedy woody stems of brush and broadleaf weeds that was the native. But, it was still a slog, playing with no forecaddies. WE happened to play it after a huge rain as well, and it was pudding soft and not ideal to say the least.
We had a young man, Brendan Dolan who was an area turf student who worked on the construction who was very proud and complimentary to the course. We had quite a build up of photos and comments from pre-construction to post construction on the exciting original 10th, par 5 with a wild wide yet meandering and blind to blind potential corridors of FW, to an 80 yard green with biarritz trough. It was one of those things that was loved by some, and I for one didn't care for it and thought it was just too over the top. Not to mention the abyss that was in the foregreen and the abrupt OOB right behind the green.
What turned out to be many of the early criticisms was largely based on the potential that it was unrealistic design for holding a major tournament because they didn't address the extreme quirk that wasn't mitigated in favor of sound tournament conventional expectations of playing shot values and characteristics, for minimalism's sake. So, if the notion of minimalism was marketing drivel, it was bent towards the unacceptable if they were really going to hold a big toon-a-mint. Obviously, the USGA eventually saw it that way and instituted the remodel, and the original ideas were a commercial-financial failure. A real sad story for the gentleman that put his heart and soul into it.
So, to sum up my own thoughts on how the design has evolved, I'm glad they kept working and apparently will continue to tweak it to hold the big one. But, they have to survive for another 6 years and will have to also have a course that people want to play and pay the freight to do so and survive a long time waiting to take the national stage again. Now that they have softened many of those 'too minimalist' features, it has a chance, I think. The first versions were going to be a hit and run, with not that many returns, if you ask me. The average day trip WI golfer, doesn't want to play with caddie, forecaddie and for a lot of $$$ and loose a dozen balls to boot. Maybe they have addressed many of those issues now.
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The Rawls Course is "minimalist design"? You are joking, right?
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The Rawls Course is "minimalist design"? You are joking, right?
So your definition of minimalism only deals with the quantities of dirt moved? Not the product?
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still skeptical of EHills (paging Mr. 155-holer ;))
Called out! I wouldn't say that I'm skeptical of Erin Hills. I've played it early on and again last year and thought all of the many changes were for the better. I'm sure the course will make for a successful championship venue for the USGA. I've followed the evolution of the course very early on since the "one of the greatest sites for golf I've ever seen" or whatever Whitten said, plus all of the hype from Mr D'Amato ("top 20 in the U.S.") in the Milwaukee paper. A potential Shinnecock 2.0 just 2.0 hours from my house? That'll get your attention. Plus, I had a little extra vested interest having actually tried to route a course there from the Armchair Contest.
I do think EH's winding path to success has been an interesting one. I'd love to read a Harvard-like case study on all of the twists and turns that got them to where they are today. It's a shame that Mr. Lang had to go broke over it. I can't help but think of some of the initial decisions -- like the strict minimalist thing, Whitten's pet holes that were eventually scrapped, 19 holes, tree removal, carts versus walking only -- and their impact on what's there today. Sure, they've made improvements and it sounds like they will continue to under the guidance of the USGA, but they are constrained by what they started with at least to some extent. I can't help but wonder if the course might be even better if they hypothetically started from scratch without the constraints from version 1.
ps. glad to see B-Swanny back on the board
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Can I get a read on the walking difficulty? "The Walking Golfer" rates it an easy walk, with a note "several long green to tee walks." Is that fair? Can a foursome really get around in 4 - 4.5 hours?
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Gary Koch said it was an 8 mile walk from 1 tee to 18 green. I'm not so sure it is 'that' long. But, easy walk was not accurate in version 1. We walked it with push carts after a heavy rain, and it was a real slog. My friend walked it with caddie a couple of weeks ago, and said it was long.
I'm having a hard time imagining the average golfer 12-15 handi, even from up tees can play this course in less than 4.5hours.
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Can I get a read on the walking difficulty? "The Walking Golfer" rates it an easy walk, with a note "several long green to tee walks." Is that fair? Can a foursome really get around in 4 - 4.5 hours?
John,
While the green to tee walks are reasonable, the scale of the course is simply large. Think of Chambers Bay with less elevation change. 4.5 would be moving for your average foursome. GCA golfers could play in 4 with nobody in front.
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John:
It's a pretty demanding walk, and one of the quandries is that it's something like 8 miles (at least that's what the NBC guys said) from #1 tee to #18 green from the back tees, yet the walks from greens to "up" tees is even longer in some cases. A lot of up and down, and a lot of longish walks between greens and tees.
Examples:
50-yard walkback from 1 green to 2 back tee (which is still only @ 350 yds; it's obviously a shorter walk to the up tees, but that's a hole that alot of folks would want to play from the back tee).
Short walk from 2 green to 3 tee, but it's straight uphill, roughly two stories.
Long, strange, not-intuitive walk from 4 green to 5 tee, and about a three-story climb if playing the back tee on 5. Be careful, or you might end up playing 17 instead of 5 after 4.
Another longish walk between 7 green and 8 tee, around 18 teeing grounds.
Decent walk between 9 green and 10 tee.
Very long walk from 10 green to tips at 11, less so if playing the 410 yds tees.
Short but uphill climb from 12 green to 13 tee.
Very short walk from 13 green to the very back tee at 14, but a bit of a hike if playing 14 at, say, 500 yds.
Another abrupt climb to 15 tee, although you've already made half the journey up the hill if you putted out on 14.
Another longish walk from 16 green to anything but the back tee at 17.
18 green is at least 75 yds from the clubhouse.
EHills is a course with a lot of up and down journeying in between holes (lots of elevated tees), and amongst the holes themselves -- 7, 8, 10, 12 (esp.), and 15 all have some pretty severe terrain that they cover. And that's just the severe stuff; there is little that is flat there.
But don't let any of that dissuade you from playing it. ;D In its current conditions, it's a wonderful course.
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Thanks, Phil.
Eight miles, with lots of ups and downs does not equal "easy to walk". Maybe for thin, strong 35 year olds. It looked nice on TV, but very severe, a championship course for the modern game.
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John,
It is not an easy walk in my opinion. As Phil outlines, there are quite a few long tee to green walks. The walkability would be my biggest knock against it. Kudos to the caddies that schlepped it this week,
Brad
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I'm impressed that those guys could walk 36 a day out there. I'm not sure I could do it.
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I'm impressed that those guys could walk 36 a day out there. I'm not sure I could do it.
Funny post of the week!
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Can I get a read on the walking difficulty? "The Walking Golfer" rates it an easy walk, with a note "several long green to tee walks." Is that fair? Can a foursome really get around in 4 - 4.5 hours?
John,
While the green to tee walks are reasonable, the scale of the course is simply large. Think of Chambers Bay with less elevation change. 4.5 would be moving for your average foursome. GCA golfers could play in 4 with nobody in front.
Went back and checked the time-stamps on my pics from late May: my GCA threesome played in 4h 5m. It would have likely been under 4h if we did not catch a 4some on the front nine.... closer to 5h probably if they did not let us through!
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I thought the US Am was quite a success this week at Erin Hills. The course was interesting to watch on TV and it produced some really good matches.
I really enjoyed watching the final match yesterday. Cantlay flat out blew it on 15 and 16. How the heck do you hit an 8 iron off the tee into that bunker with a ton of room all around it after teeing off first? Plus, his first putt on 16 was way off.
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I was out there yesterday. I was pretty impressed with the conditioning they were able to achieve aided by mother nature. The fairways were very tight and crusty. And I agree with Terry that from the USGA's perpective, the place is a homerun in terms of patron viewing, plant and equipment. Although a bit more conventional now as Phil states, many of the changes are a positive, although I still prefer the old second green (It was reminiscent of Bandon Trails #14 in it's prior incarnation). Removing the tree on #1 has got to be one of the better tree removal programs in recent memory. The "Dell" hole is no loss IMO; the "new" #9 was always a better hole. It'll be interesting to see what kind of turnout they get for the Open. The owner may be a rich hedge fund guy, but I also really wonder how many people will make the drive to pay $200 + caddy for a tough walk and a tough test on a "links-like" championship course. I guess once it vaults up the rankings the lemmings will come. :-\ Speaking for the average consumer, I'll take 4 rounds at Lawsonia (or 10 rounds at Spring Valley) every time before ponying up to play Erin Hills or Whistling Straights again. Of course if I were 20 years younger, a bit cockier and had a prayer at scaring 80 out there I might give up shopping at the Apple store for a few months to test my mettle...
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Loved the event. The course is a series of highs and lows with a routing I still do not get. 18 is just an incredibly bad hole. 12 is an incredibly great hole.
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I was out there yesterday. I was pretty impressed with the conditioning they were able to achieve aided by mother nature. The fairways were very tight and crusty. And I agree with Terry that from the USGA's perpective, the place is a homerun in terms of patron viewing, plant and equipment. Although a bit more conventional now as Phil states, many of the changes are a positive, although I still prefer the old second green (It was reminiscent of Bandon Trails #14 in it's prior incarnation). Removing the tree on #1 has got to be one of the better tree removal programs in recent memory. The "Dell" hole is no loss IMO; the "new" #9 was always a better hole. It'll be interesting to see what kind of turnout they get for the Open. The owner may be a rich hedge fund guy, but I also really wonder how many people will make the drive to pay $200 + caddy for a tough walk and a tough test on a "links-like" championship course. I guess once it vaults up the rankings the lemmings will come. :-\ Speaking for the average consumer, I'll take 4 rounds at Lawsonia (or 10 rounds at Spring Valley) every time before ponying up to play Erin Hills or Whistling Straights again. Of course if I were 20 years younger, a bit cockier and had a prayer at scaring 80 out there I might give up shopping at the Apple store for a few months to test my mettle...
Jud,
Considering I'm now even further away from Lawsonia, it's awfully tough to turn down a round at Lawsonia if I'm within an hour of it...regardless of price! I'm still a little bummed that the USGA didn't pick the (closer to EH than Blue Mound) Lawsonia as the co-host for stroke play. That would of been fun to watch...however unlikely it would of been.
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I'm impressed that those guys could walk 36 a day out there. I'm not sure I could do it.
It is a difficult walk for sure. I don't think most people could do it in under 5 hours. I had a caddy and was an in shape 25 years old when I played it last summer and I don't think I'd have enjoyed 36 holes too much either, so don't feel bad.
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I thought the US Am was quite a success this week at Erin Hills. The course was interesting to watch on TV and it produced some really good matches.
I really enjoyed watching the final match yesterday. Cantlay flat out blew it on 15 and 16. How the heck do you hit an 8 iron off the tee into that bunker with a ton of room all around it after teeing off first? Plus, his first putt on 16 was way off.
I realize the Ams aren't pros (yet), and they're young, but I thought it was pretty notable how little they talked about how Cantlay disintegrated -- he bogeyed 3 out of the last 4 holes to lose the US Am!
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As a Wisconsin resort Erin Hills might be pricey with a caddie but the Straits seems to do okay despite that issue. The course is a challenging walk but if you can't handle the challenge don't play! The presence of a caddie isn't quite as important as at Bandon which has a lot more elevation changes, blind shots and plenty of fairway rollout issues.
Last point about the renovations. They were undertaken with an eye toward major championships not major minimalism geeks like us. Seems to me that they've done an excellent job thus far toward completing their mission statement.
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Gary Koch said it was an 8 mile walk from 1 tee to 18 green. I'm not so sure it is 'that' long. But, easy walk was not accurate in version 1. We walked it with push carts after a heavy rain, and it was a real slog. My friend walked it with caddie a couple of weeks ago, and said it was long.
I'm having a hard time imagining the average golfer 12-15 handi, even from up tees can play this course in less than 4.5hours.
I played it walking and carrying my bag in less than 3.5 last fall. Its not that bad.
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Didn't see much, but I really liked what I saw. Bummer to see Cantlay lose in part due to one really bad putt, on a relatively simple putt, no less.
Off to read the other posts...
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The course is walkable but may be a challenge for some. On Saturday, a marshall handling the "ropeline" for the Cantlay-Russell match said it's all of 8.5 miles from 1 to 18. The match ended on 15 so that distance wasn't realized. Though I can confirm that wearing sneakers for the walk up-and-down the hills is not advisable, and I wish I was one of those who wear golf shoes to a golf tourney.
Didn't see much, but I really liked what I saw. Bummer to see Cantlay lose in part due to one really bad putt, on a relatively simple putt, no less.
Really a poor put from Cantlay on 16 (34th hole): three-putting from 15 feet.
Here's a solid Golf Week recap of the Kraft-Cantlay match and Kraft's run-up to a spot on the Walker Cup team.
http://www.golfweek.com/news/2011/aug/28/kraft-beats-ucla-star-cantlay-us-am-final/
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George, the 19 year old seemed very composed for several of the matches where he came from behind. It seemed to me that he went to the edge one too many times, and when it got late in the round and it became a test of poise and experience, he made that fatal error on 15 with the 8I off tee. I think he knew it and it hit him hard. You could see his whole demeanor change, and that one really sort of embarrassed him as things like a mistake tend to do, particularly with the very young and self assured, until that big goof up. That seems to be when the panic set in, and he botched that 15th and his putting grip seems to have tightened and the tension caused him to hit that bomb of a blown putt past the hole on 16.
But, no doubt he'll be back the wiser and more seasoned. What I can't believe in watching that kid is his arms. He looks more like a kid from the audio visual club in H. S., than a fellow that can really haul the mail with a pretty long golf game. I couldn't detect any definition to his arms. Where does he get such power?
But back to GCA and EH., I'll repost the link to the Ziegler interview where much of the thinking behind the EH story is revealed.
http://www.jsonline.com/sports/golf/91274844.html (http://www.jsonline.com/sports/golf/91274844.html)
Frankly, it seems we just can't have what I call, "big lot golf" that can be designed to hold big tournaments anymore, without the ultra wealthy developer figure behind it. Lang just wasn't big enough of a financial player to handle it. The influence and dream that was cultivated in Mr Lang's dream and ego by certain players, was something of a ethical question in my view. Others may just chalk it up to caveat emptor.
To build and design the big lot venues, takes too much mad money and takes the average rec golfer out of it for the most part. And, even at the so called goal to 'just break even', these sort of big lot courses are simply not going to be built with all the required features and infra structure to be places for the average joe to play. That is simply the reality.
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Lots of folks quick to judge. ::)
Erin Hills hasn't even been open a full season, really, when you take into consideration the multiple renovations that have been undertaken, and then again preparation for this past week's Amateur. RJ -- I seem to recall lots and lots of people quite skeptical of Herbie Kohler building championship courses in Sheboygan, of all places, and he seems to have made it work.
I continue to be impressed by what I'd call the low-key and subtle improvements to some of the amenties at Erin Hills. They've built three cottages and a mini-clubhouse up on the hill that overlooks #1, with wonderful views of the course, but they are sort of out-of-the-way and unobtrusive (far less jarring on the landscape than what I've seen in the Dismal River threads). The pratice area is huge, but again out of the way, and the place continues in my estimatation to reflect its surroundings -- the main dining area for the Amateur was a barn with mismatched old tables and chairs. To me, it seems focused primarily on the golfing experience, and while providing amenities that I'm sure are quite nice and comfortable, look fairly modest and not over the top. You get a real sense of being out in the middle of the countryside there -- maybe not the sense of isolation that I'm sure is one of the draws of places like Ballyneal, SHills, and Dismal River, but a place that you could get away for the weekend and enjoy some very good golf.
And I'd also add this to some of the comments about the "hype" and "marketing" of EHills. As one who actually lives here in Wisconsin, EHills gets a lot less hype among the lay public than Kohler's courses did, initially, and to this day the Kohler courses enjoy (I'd argue) a far stronger sense of marketing themselves to the public than EHills. The "hype" of EHills was within the very small and tight-knit world of golf geeks, not so much the general public (stop 100 random sporting fans in Wisconsin, and I'd bet far more have heard of WStraits than EHills). True, part of that is because the Straits has been around alot longer, and has had two majors, but I just don't get this argument about EHills being over-hyped to the general public. Maybe it was over-hyped as a great championship golf site, but that's another story, well-chronicled here and elsewhere.
It's opened at a bad time, no doubt -- the Wisconsin economy is still pretty shaky. But while everyone (on this board? :o) is going ga-ga over the second Dismal River course that's miles (and miles, and miles, and...) from nowhere, there's a pretty solid course 30 minutes from Milwaukee.
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Phil,
Your comparison to the over-the-top, "ga ga" reaction to Dismal River is quite apropos in many ways, but let's not forget that DR has a mission that is the polar opposite of EH. Dismal wants the geek squad to join and linger. They want a certain type of member, the type that will hear the angels sing every time they see the sign pointing them to the club. And that is great, it seems like they're really going to improve their facility with the second course. And I'm sure they have no pretense for hosting any sort of championship other than the occasional state amateur event. Bandon Dunes is a similar story, except they have the kind of golf courses that are perfect for national amateur championships. Mike Keiser has said repeatedly that he wants the best amateurs competing at Bandon, not the pros. He can "afford" to be more of an architectural purist and embrace quirk here and there on the property. Erin Hills is the sort of place that has to make architectural concessions if it is going to succeed in its mission. They will make some more in the next year or two as they get ready for the big event. I think that we on this board have to remember the mission of a course before we too harshly judge what kind of work they're doing.
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Phil, while we all have our differing price points, and evaluation of value for our $$ we spend on our discretionary recreational budgets, I'd ask you as a relatively average situated guy, and decent rec golfer, and WI resident; how many times in the coming 6 years until the big USGA open, do you 'think' you'll play Erin Hills? Then, factor that 200 green fee, and 50 caddie fee+ tip that will likely go up as that time goes by.
BTW, EH is an absolutely beautiful setting for golf. On site appeal alone, it is one of the great ones.
I played WS the first tournament they ever had, free. ::) ;) ;D But, the next time was less than a year later in '99-2000(?) with Mike Cirba, and it was only 220 plus 60 caddiefee and tip. Both of us evaluated it at that price over a few brewski's and admitted we both had a bit of 'buyers regret'. Sure, it is a big time course, has tons of discussion rich architecture to chew on, but that is a lot of dough to most average folk.
Yes, I indulge myself to about the most I can justify to pursue playing some of these courses. I will probably return to EH once, always looking for a spring special, or what not. But, thinking I"m not all that different from the average enthusiastic typical golfer with our basic regional expectations on price and so forth, once will be about it. I'll never return to WS at the prices they charge, even at pre memorial day specials.
If, and perhaps it is a big if, I am typical of those that might seek out this sort of venue once, due to excessive price, what might a marketting strategy for a place like EH or WS be, but hype and appeal to belt notchers, and intrepid fanatics or the corporate entertainment crowd, who desire all the amenities?
IMHO, EH will not 'grow the game of golf', and apparently that isn't part of the owners big picture personal goals at any rate.
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As Terry states, they're doing a great job of moving toward a top championship tournament venue. Whether they can garner the 15-20,000 rounds (?) necessary to get to break-even status as a walking-only venue long-term in the distant Milwaukee burbs with 1 course, a few rooms and a 5 month season of decent weather is another matter...
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We haven't even talked about the local politics and economy of what is instore or needed to take place in coming years, to build up to a USGA national open. There may be some very intense debate and resistance from locals who fiercely hold onto the unique local charm and environment of the 'holy hill' area, that may not be overly enthusiastic to upgrade roads, and see attendant commercial development follow the 'big time' golf venue.
Haven hasn't seemed to become a congested metropolis, so maybe they have a good plan to keep the local area charm of the town of Erin. I hope so...
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Ben,
If someone magically recreated Ballyneal molecule for molecule in Vegas, it wouldn't provide you the same experience? I (by and large) appreciate the products of the modern minimal design as much as anyone else here, but its not because of the PROCESS, its because of the PRODUCT.
Brad
Don't you think the process has something to do with the outcome of the product? I sure do.
Someone might be able to re-create Ballyneal molecule for molecule, but I don't think someone would create Ballyneal that way.
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Ben,
If someone magically recreated Ballyneal molecule for molecule in Vegas, it wouldn't provide you the same experience? I (by and large) appreciate the products of the modern minimal design as much as anyone else here, but its not because of the PROCESS, its because of the PRODUCT.
Brad
Don't you think the process has something to do with the outcome of the product? I sure do.
Someone might be able to re-create Ballyneal molecule for molecule, but I don't think someone would create Ballyneal that way.
You've turned my hypothetical 90 or maybe 180 degrees. Sure I believe the process has something to do with the outcome, but the bottom line is the product. Do your customers really care HOW you stencil their shirts, or do they just care about the final PRODUCT?
George, IIRC, you were a big fan of the Rawls Course, and it was created that way, wasn't it, or did Tom D use his magical GCA telekinetic power to create that course from a flat parcel of land.
Brad
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You've turned my hypothetical 90 or maybe 180 degrees. Sure I believe the process has something to do with the outcome, but the bottom line is the product. Do your customers really care HOW you stencil their shirts, or do they just care about the final PRODUCT?
Brad
I believe the two are interrelated, in both architecture and t shirts. (And make no mistake, I am no Tom D or anyone else special when it comes to t shirts). How we print a t shirt has a great deal to do with the final product. Our industry is on the cusp of a major paradigm shift; they are really close to developing direct to garment digital printing that is really nice. But it's still not quite there yet. I can almost guarantee that I could tell you how a t shirt was printed, but only for a few more years. I'd guess many of the architects could tell you how a hole was created, at least most of the time.
I don't think I changed your hypothetical, I think I refined it... :) I agree that the bottom line is the product, but I still think the process is vital to the outcome. I just don't see anyone being creative enough to come up with Ballyneal by starting off with a flat site and creating it. And I say that as a huge fan of Rawls, which I wouldn't call minimalist, either.
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RJ:
I'm probably the single worst person to ask about discretionary income for golf and EHills, because: a) I don't spend alot of money playing golf anyway; b) I care less about belt-notching than.....anyone in golf; and c) most of my discretionary money in the coming years will be headed toward our state's final public universities in the form of tuition. ;)
In short, I'm not their target audience, irregardless of how much I fake knowing about it by posting about it here at GCA. :D
The broader question is: Can the course hold up, as an economic thing, in this market? I think it can -- and I think the renovations and tweaking and improved conditioning (which tend to draw a discerning and sometimes critical eye here on GCA) have improved the course for their target audience, i.e, serious golfers who want to test their game on a US Open-worthy course. After all, there aren't too many of those, anywhere, for the non-access trolling crowd (Pinehurst, TPines, BBlack, Ch. Bay).
Fewer, arguably, than private, national-membership golf courses in the sandy, choppy, hilly, rock/cattle-strewn lands of the great West. :o
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I, for one, am not all that interested in the process. Like politics, some of the process of creating the various iterations of this young golf course may have been a bit like making sausage. It it's good in the end, I'll be a happy consumer. Am I less pleased with the nearly final product if some architectural pleasantries may have been offended in the process? Heck no, because I like the resulting product and I'm excited for them to host a US Open, even at the perceived expense of another, more venerated club that I've been a member of (Olympia) and at the expense of a great public course (Cog Hill) that I've always had affection for.
We're talking about Erin Hills which wants to host a US Open, not Old Macdonald which deservedly hosted a US Publinks. One is primarily a business oriented proposition and the other is more the passion product of a true patrician of the game. Both worthy pursuits, but different.
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Gary Koch said it was an 8 mile walk from 1 tee to 18 green. I'm not so sure it is 'that' long. But, easy walk was not accurate in version 1. We walked it with push carts after a heavy rain, and it was a real slog. My friend walked it with caddie a couple of weeks ago, and said it was long.
I'm having a hard time imagining the average golfer 12-15 handi, even from up tees can play this course in less than 4.5hours.
I played it walking and carrying my bag in less than 3.5 last fall. Its not that bad.
OK, Sven, but I've walked and carried at Stone Eagle in under 3 hours, though I was working hard for exercise. Few consider Stone Eagle a walkable course.
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We're talking about Erin Hills which wants to host a US Open, not Old Macdonald which deservedly hosted a US Publinks. One is primarily a business oriented proposition and the other is more the passion product of a true patrician of the game. Both worthy pursuits, but different.
Terry, I truly don't know which is which in your observation. Is MK a true patrician of the game and Ziegler running it as a 'primarily business oriented prop'? Or, is it the other way around. Because, Z said in his interview that he is OK with it merely 'breaking even'. Yet, to my knowledge, Z is a member of Milwaukee CC but up until now, hasn't actually been what one would call a true patrician of the game of any other longstanding noteworthy endeavor in golf. (Or has he?) Yet, he is obviously a very big time investment star. On the other hand, MK has now quite a noteworthy global legacy as a true patrician of the game, but as a primarily business oriented guy, he isn't exactly chopped liver! :o ;D 8) Who is who?
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RJ:
The connections between Milwaukee CC and EHills are quite interesting -- see reply #15 of this thread and the link for details. (The short story -- influential members of MCC shepherded EHills' entree into the world of the USGA and its site selection process, and were also instrumental at getting Ziegler to be the financial savior of the place.)
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I continue to be a big fan of EH. The course looked great on TV yesterday and appeared to be playing at near ideal conditions. IMO, it is more interesting to watch that type of golf vs. overwatered, tree-lined fairway parkland layouts, by a long shot.
And for everyone chirping about how tough of a walk it is, I would have to disagree. I have carried twice out there, and although it isn't the EASIEST walk in the world (there are a decent amount of ups and downs), I didn't think the walk was that bad at all.
If you live within 2 hours of the course and haven't seen it yet, you're definitely missing out. Especially if you catch it on a day when it plays as firm as it was displayed this week.
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Brad and George,
Call me a BB, but I think these essays are worth a read. It speaks to what minimalism is when large earthmoving may be required. Like I said, I don't think it's about the dirt. It's about what that dirt looks like when it's moved and how it interacts with its surrounds. Rawls looks like something you could find in the eroded areas southeast of Lubbock or a number of other red dirt areas of west Texas. Flying over it, it looks like it could occur naturally. Shadow Creek? Not so much.
http://www.renaissancegolf.com/thoughts/minimalism_defined/
http://dev.brightbridge.net/RGD/selected_essays/play_it_as_it_lies/
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Brad and George,
Call me a BB, but I think these essays are worth a read. It speaks to what minimalism is when large earthmoving may be required. Like I said, I don't think it's about the dirt. It's about what that dirt looks like when it's moved and how it interacts with its surrounds. Rawls looks like something you could find in the eroded areas southeast of Lubbock or a number of other red dirt areas of west Texas. Flying over it, it looks like it could occur naturally. Shadow Creek? Not so much.
http://www.renaissancegolf.com/thoughts/minimalism_defined/
http://dev.brightbridge.net/RGD/selected_essays/play_it_as_it_lies/
Ben,
There is surely merit in what you say but it ain't dogma. There's nothing more useless in our society than absolutism whether we are talking about golf course design, cultural issues or debt ceiling debates. Give and take, flexibility and compromise is the lubrication of civilized folks. If one wants to take any position to an extreme you wind up sounding extremist. Which sounds pretty boring and uninformed to me.
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Terry,
Well said. I understand I become more like Melvyn when I make posts like my previous. But I do believe the process is as important as the product. I have to believe that it is. I am ingrained in a community and culture that demands accountability for not only the security it provides, but how it provides it. I am not aggressively shrewd enough in the ways of the business world to believe solely in product.
But thanks for the flint to my steel. I understand where Brad is coming from. I just wanted to defend against "dirt moved" as an identifier to what I believe to be a very important era for golf architecture.
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Ron Whitten weighed in with a review of how Erin Hills played during the Amateur:
http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/blogs/wheres-matty-g/2011/09/erin-hills-post-game-review.html#entry-more
He also tongue-in-cheek tipped his cap to GCA:
I’m just happy that Erin Hills’s performance during the U.S. Amateur has resulted in more golfers appreciating what is admittedly a very primitive, minimalist, lay-of-the-land design. Heck, even some of the Golf Club Atlas crowd grudgingly approves of it.
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Mike Davis and Erin Hills aren't wasting any time in making course tweaks. From an end-of-season email I received from EH:
During the off-season, these minor improvements will be made to the course, with both daily play and the 2017 U.S. Open in mind:
• new 405 tee on the 5th hole
• extension of the 487 tee on the 8th hole
• enlarging the right fairway bunker on the 3rd hole
• new fairway bunkers on the left of the 7th hole
• enhanced target greens on the practice area
• attacking invasive grasses in the fairways
• new bridge from the 13th green to the 14th tee
I'm sure Phil can weigh in on these changes as he's most familiar with the course and how it played during the Amateur.
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Mike Davis and Erin Hills aren't wasting any time in making course tweaks. From an end-of-season email I received from EH:
During the off-season, these minor improvements will be made to the course, with both daily play and the 2017 U.S. Open in mind:
• attacking invasive grasses in the fairways
Attacking invasive grasses? Anyone know what this is?
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Getting rid of some poa areas in the fairways.