Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Joe Bentham on June 27, 2011, 02:32:41 PM
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Check out my Public Links coverage out at www.pacduneslooper.com (http://www.pacduneslooper.com)
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Joe,
Please keep us up to date. I can't imagine a better venue for the Pub Links than Bandon.
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Joe:
Any idea why they chose the courses that they did to host the matches? Just curious...
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Are you going to be caddying during the tournament?
I would think local knowledge would be especially critical at Bandon.
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Joe,
Love the on-course camera you mentioned in the previous blog post. Hopefully they'll do it for the other courses as well. This could be the most fun live webcam since Africam.
http://www.bandondunesgolf.com/pages/on_course_cameras/114.php
Looking forward to reading more about the Publinx from you this week, as well as watching a bit on TV later this week.
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Gentlemen
In half the time it took to post a question you could've followed my link, read the post and had the answers.
For those of you interested enough to do so I'll be updating all week so check back often.
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Joe,
Hope you have fun out there.
Other than length, any interesting wrinkles in course setup?
What are greens stimping at?
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Joe:
Any idea why they chose the courses that they did to host the matches? Just curious...
Of course..Bandon will now have had a USGA championship conducted on each of the four courses @ the resort...unprecedented
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Joe,
Love the on-course camera
+1, looking stormy!
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Gentlemen
In half the time it took to post a question you could've followed my link, read the post and had the answers.
For those of you interested enough to do so I'll be updating all week so check back often.
Love the snappy 'tude...wish I'd had you on the bag when I talked myself into trying to drive #6 at PD.
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Gentlemen
In half the time it took to post a question you could've followed my link, read the post and had the answers.
For those of you interested enough to do so I'll be updating all week so check back often.
Love the snappy 'tude...wish I'd had you on the bag when I talked myself into trying to drive #6 at PD.
Joe would have slapped you silly while kicking your ass.
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Gentlemen
In half the time it took to post a question you could've followed my link, read the post and had the answers.
For those of you interested enough to do so I'll be updating all week so check back often.
Love the snappy 'tude...wish I'd had you on the bag when I talked myself into trying to drive #6 at PD.
Joe would have slapped you silly while kicking your ass.
Not really. He's kind of a kitten until you throw clubs at him.
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For some reason I don't think this fellow likes #14 @ Bandon Trails...
http://www.usga.org/ChampEventScore.aspx?id=17179869204&year=2011&type=card015
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Gentlemen
In half the time it took to post a question you could've followed my link, read the post and had the answers.
For those of you interested enough to do so I'll be updating all week so check back often.
Joe,
If you want to redirect traffic to your blog...take out an advertisement. If you actually want to talk golf, golf courses, and the Pub Links this week why don't you post your information/observations/whatever here.
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Wow - they are playing 3 on Trails as a par 4 at 513 yards. It was a par 5 for the Mid-Am.
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For some reason I don't think this fellow likes #14 @ Bandon Trails...
http://www.usga.org/ChampEventScore.aspx?id=17179869204&year=2011&type=card015
Poor guy, though with a par he still would've shot 86... :)
As for #3, 513 means the tees are up a bit from the tips, but with that southerly wind it must be playing like a par 5!
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Gentlemen
In half the time it took to post a question you could've followed my link, read the post and had the answers.
For those of you interested enough to do so I'll be updating all week so check back often.
I did read the post and it didn't answer the questions posed. It did, however, answer the question of whether you can write and spell correctly. In the negative, but it did answer that question. Thanks.
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Gentlemen
In half the time it took to post a question you could've followed my link, read the post and had the answers.
For those of you interested enough to do so I'll be updating all week so check back often.
I did read the post and it didn't answer the questions posed. It did, however, answer the question of whether you can write and spell correctly. In the negative, but it did answer that question. Thanks.
X2
I guess the questions I had shall remain a mystery in this thread as well.
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Without putting words in Joe's mouth, I saw two questions prior to his reply:
First question: "Any idea why they chose the courses that they did to host the matches?"
From the blog: "As for how the courses are going to play, one word comes to mind: long".
That doesn't necessarily mean that's the reason they chose those two courses, and there are certainly back tees at each course that are not figured into the yardage that mortals like us play, but BT and OM are the two longest courses from the back tees per the scorecards.
Second question: "Are you going to be caddying during the tournament?"
Pretty clear from the blog.
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For some reason I don't think this fellow likes #14 @ Bandon Trails...
http://www.usga.org/ChampEventScore.aspx?id=17179869204&year=2011&type=card015
Wow, a 13 is quite a number for a hole with no water. That's the icing on the cake--I love that hole.
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Someone has an idea to build another golf course south of the town of Bandon.
Who?
None other than Mike Keiser.
"Keiser: There is another 400-acre parcel that is called the Sheep Ranch, which has 14 Tom Doak-designed green shapes in a big pasture right on the ocean. That’s a site for an additional golf course sometime [in the future]. I haven’t planned it yet. I do hope that I can complete a deal with the state parks to build Bandon Muni Golf Links. It would be south of Bandon, six or seven miles away [from the resort]. It’s right on the ocean. It will be 27 holes. Juniors and locals pay virtually nothing. It’s just like St. Andrews. Tourists pay full ride and Oregonians pay half price.
What is the topography of that proposed layout?
Keiser: Pretty much exactly like Pacific Dunes. It’s about there that the dunes stop. It’s the southern-most edge."
http://www.usga.org/ChampEventArticle.aspx?id=21474837645
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wow, I forgot how lame GCAers can be.
The two questions I was referring to where: Why where Old Mac and Trails used and was I looping in the tournament. Both topics I covered in my blog post. But it case you missed it there and where others have pointed it out, now that Old Mac has hosted, all four courses have had USGA events played on them. A pretty good reason to choose Old Mac. And my bag shot 73 this afternoon in the tough side of the draw weather wise.
Enjoy the clubhouse here boys.
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wow, I forgot how lame GCAers can be.
Yeah, this coming from the guy that thought Greg Oden was going to have a better career than Kevin Durant!
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wow, I forgot how lame GCAers can be.
The two questions I was referring to where: Why where Old Mac and Trails used and was I looping in the tournament. Both topics I covered in my blog post. But it case you missed it there and where others have pointed it out, now that Old Mac has hosted, all four courses have had USGA events played on them. A pretty good reason to choose Old Mac. And my bag shot 73 this afternoon in the tough side of the draw weather wise.
Enjoy the clubhouse here boys.
Joe, I don't think GCAers are lame but it can be a tough crowd; best of luck to your man--hope he qualifies for match play.
FYI both courses played pretty tough yesterday: Trails averaged 78.5 and Old Macdonald 82.6!!
http://www.usga.org/ChampEventScore.aspx?id=17179869204&year=2011&type=coursestats
http://www.usga.org/ChampEventScore.aspx?id=17179869344&year=2011&type=coursestats
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Interesting to see that #5 at BT played the fourth-toughest for the men yesterday at 126 yards. Where did they have the pin?
#14 was the 8th toughest hole in relation to par.
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Thanks for the thoughts, Joe. If you have time, it might be interesting to compare how many Bandon loopers saw their man get through the qualifying rounds versus those who carried or had a friend do so.
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I love Mike Keiser. He called the pros "petulant."
Fabulous :o
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Looks like Joe's man had a tough round @ OM today:
http://www.usga.org/ChampEventScore.aspx?id=17179869204&year=2011&type=card153
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Looks like Joe's man had a tough round @ OM today:
http://www.usga.org/ChampEventScore.aspx?id=17179869204&year=2011&type=card153
Doubles on the par-5 6th and 17th were the killers.
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Joe gave me wonderful club selection at OM a couple of weeks ago- he really knows how to navigate 14- plus kept me out of the fairway bunkers on 10- a first!- maybe his man was stubborn. J- how did the outing at Monarch Bay turn out?
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George--
Good question. I keep an eye out for that. I do know that 2nd and 3rd place currently in the Men's qualifying are being carried by Bandon Loopers. My brother has Max Marsico's bag and they are in thrid place at 144.
Doubling two par 5's in a round and still having a chance at a playoff for match play isn't terrible. It is just a little heart wrenching when you think where two pars on those holes would have gotten us. Safely inside the cut line. Heading back out there right now to wait and see.....
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George--
Good question. I keep an eye out for that. I do know that 2nd and 3rd place currently in the Men's qualifying are being carried by Bandon Loopers. My brother has Max Marsico's bag and they are in thrid place at 144.
Doubling two par 5's in a round and still having a chance at a playoff for match play isn't terrible. It is just a little heart wrenching when you think where two pars on those holes would have gotten us. Safely inside the cut line. Heading back out there right now to wait and see.....
Joe, how does a scratch player make 7 on #17 at OM? Please describe this dog's porridge.
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Been interesting to follow this scoring. They might have a good chance at not even having a playoff. Exactly 64 guys at 151 has been that way for awhile. Looking at the 15 or so players left on the course and it doesn't look like it has much chance to change. At best, a 6-for-1 playoff at 152 it looks like.
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Two interesting points from the men:
1. Right now, exactly 64 dudes are at +10 or better, negating the need for a playoff...what would the odds be for that?
2. Two dudes went 82-68 to qualify, again proving the statement attributed to Churchill, golf lover he, to "never, never, never, never, never give up."
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George--
Good question. I keep an eye out for that. I do know that 2nd and 3rd place currently in the Men's qualifying are being carried by Bandon Loopers. My brother has Max Marsico's bag and they are in thrid place at 144.
Doubling two par 5's in a round and still having a chance at a playoff for match play isn't terrible. It is just a little heart wrenching when you think where two pars on those holes would have gotten us. Safely inside the cut line. Heading back out there right now to wait and see.....
Joe, how does a scratch player make 7 on #17 at OM? Please describe this dog's porridge.
Sorry to kibitz, but a lost ball left would help.
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Looks like a 6-for-3 playoff at 152 on the men's side. On the women's side it's a 9-for-3 playoff at 159. Some girl named Cheyenne Woods was the medalist at 1-under.
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6 for 2 on the guys side, correct on the ladies side
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Bill--
The trouble started with the tee shot. From the tee the ball needed to be played at the very left edge of the fairway. He started it at the middle of the golf hole trying to turn it over a bit and it didn't turn leaving him in what amounts to a green side bunker with little hope of advancing it 50 yards which he accomplished. Thinking he had to stuff it to stay alive he overcooked his 3rd shot into an unplayable lie left of the green and failed to get it up and down.
The double on 6 is the one that will forever haunt me. 10 yards short of the green in 2, we 5 putted. Hit the first one through the green and then failed to get the second putt up the false front from behind the back right pin location. The buried elephant called "Mike's shield" responsible for this misery might replace the hump on the right side of #15 at Pacific Dunes as my favorite (or least favorite, I'm not sure which it is) green side hazard on the resort.
I have to move on though, I've been reassigned a bag for the match play. Will be starting at 10:50 tomorrow at Trails. Follow the action at pacduneslooper.com (http://pacduneslooper.com) if your interested.
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Joe:
How did that mound in the back of #6 green get the name "Mike's Shield" ? I don't remember that from construction, anyway.
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... we 5 putted ...
Doesn't really deserve a comment ...
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Mike Dugger touched on this...here is a longer quote from M. Keiser:
"And that’s why I like amateur events. I didn’t build this for the pros. Now some have come here. Even though they are moderately short by modern standards, the wind is a great equalizer. These golf courses would stand the test of the pros. But I didn’t build them for them because they are a petulant group. I built them for 25 million amateurs and amateur tournaments. These people are the best of us. So they are my target."
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Tom
I was trying to describe the hump at the front right of 6 green. It has been labeled "Mike's Shield" in the caddie yardage book since it came out. Whatever it is called, it is an awesome Green side hazard for a par 5. Especially when 6 plays downwind like it did yesterday. Just wish we could've hit our line on our second shot. We would've been on the left side of the hole with an angle.
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Mike - In your opinion, have the players adapted more to a ground game or semi ground game as opposed to their typical aerial game on Old Macdonald?
It will be interesting to see how that develops as the week goes on.
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How about some "positive" results for a Woods.
It would appear his neice is sitting pretty after 1st two rounds...
http://sports.yahoo.com/golf/pga/news?slug=ap-womensuspublinks
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How about some "positive" results for a Woods.
It would appear his neice is sitting pretty after 1st two rounds...
http://sports.yahoo.com/golf/pga/news?slug=ap-womensuspublinks
Funny, I did not think the next time I saw reference to Tiger's "neice" it would golf related.
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What can be attributed to the seemingly high scores for the medal rounds?
A lot of discussion (on other golf forums) about the recent US Open at Congressional and what "needs" to be done to "protect par" for such championships. The same old suggestions keep getting rehashed, like super narrow fairways and super penal rough, more hazards, more trees, water and more water, etc. All the things that we "the enlightened," seem to frown upon.
So what about Bandon made it so tough for these top AMs? Was it mostly the weather/wind? Length? Unfamiliarity with links golf and the types of shots that are needed to be successful?
Does this demonstrate that it is possible to have a course that is both playable and fun for the golfer of average skill yet still able to test the expert ?
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What can be attributed to the seemingly high scores for the medal rounds?
A lot of discussion (on other golf forums) about the recent US Open at Congressional and what "needs" to be done to "protect par" for such championships. The same old suggestions keep getting rehashed, like super narrow fairways and super penal rough, more hazards, more trees, water and more water, etc. All the things that we "the enlightened," seem to frown upon.
So what about Bandon made it so tough for these top AMs? Was it mostly the weather/wind? Length? Unfamiliarity with links golf and the types of shots that are needed to be successful?
Does this demonstrate that it is possible to have a course that is both playable and fun for the golfer of average skill yet still able to test the expert ?
Gotta be the wind and dry/fast conditions...it's all ground game
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So what about Bandon made it so tough for these top AMs? Was it mostly the weather/wind? Length? Unfamiliarity with links golf and the types of shots that are needed to be successful?
I have a couple of questions as well. What is the course rating for Old Mac from the back/back tees?
Also, how good in reality is the field at the publinx?
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Tom
I was trying to describe the hump at the front right of 6 green. It has been labeled "Mike's Shield" in the caddie yardage book since it came out. Whatever it is called, it is an awesome Green side hazard for a par 5. Especially when 6 plays downwind like it did yesterday. Just wish we could've hit our line on our second shot. We would've been on the left side of the hole with an angle.
Joe:
I thought you were talking about the knobby contour on the back right-center of #6 green, which is Jim Urbina's creation, I think. [It was already there when I got there.] The raised front right hump was actually my addition to the green. It's not as severe as the one on the 14th green at St. Andrews -- the model for the Long hole -- but the whole point was to get people to play left unless they got all the way to the green. So it sounds like it's working as intended.
Jim N: The course rating for Old Mac is 73 point something from the yardage they're playing. But it's all about the conditions ... several guys broke par in the more benign conditions late Tuesday and early Wednesday. If there had been 144 Tour pros in the field, somebody would have shot 62 or 63, if not lower. But, it's not dead calm very often there!
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Is Cheyenne Woods truly a pub links golfer?
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I wonder what the people who were not so hot on OldMac because the driving provides no challenge and how easy the course is, are saying now...
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I'm not sure what the perception is out there in cyber space, but the scores yesterday at Old Mac where good. The scoring conditions where good and a lot of players took advantage in the afternoon. If you haven't been here there is no way to explain it to you. And if you have been here then you might understand how hard Old Mac is when you play it from the back of the back boxes to all the tough pin locations.
A player in the field this week who also played in the US Open at Congressional this year was one better there then he was here, 153-154. He said Old Mac was tougher yesterday morning then Congressional was either of the days he played it.
The Public Links field is strong and I think everybody would've been amazed at how much higher the scores would've been yesterday had the north wind blown.
Getting your ball close at Old Mac is a challenge for even a group of highly skilled and ranked amateurs. So sitting at home and calling the scores high is really, really easy.
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Can't wait to see the golf on the Golf Channel tomorrow. The thought of a nationally televised amateur championship at Bandon Trails/Old Macdonald is really pretty special.
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I'm not sure what the perception is out there in cyber space, but the scores yesterday at Old Mac where good. The scoring conditions where good and a lot of players took advantage in the afternoon. If you haven't been here there is no way to explain it to you. And if you have been here then you might understand how hard Old Mac is when you play it from the back of the back boxes to all the tough pin locations.
A player in the field this week who also played in the US Open at Congressional this year was one better there then he was here, 153-154. He said Old Mac was tougher yesterday morning then Congressional was either of the days he played it.
The Public Links field is strong and I think everybody would've been amazed at how much higher the scores would've been yesterday had the north wind blown.
Getting your ball close at Old Mac is a challenge for even a group of highly skilled and ranked amateurs. So sitting at home and calling the scores high is really, really easy.
Back tees to tough hole locations, enough said...doubt the pros would shoot 62/63 even in benign conditions. Thaks
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I just looked at the scoring stats. Looks to me like the 82.6 average at Old Mac was for the women. I think the men's average in medal play was 76.
The 4 toughest holes there against par, in order starting with the hardest, were #10 (Bottle), #9 (Cape), #12 (Redan) and #11 (Road). The field averaged slightly more than 2 strokes over par on those 4 holes alone. i.e. each was almost a perfect half par, from the hard side.
Of the par 3s, the Biarritz was easily the toughest, at 3.523. The field averaged nearly 1.5 strokes over par on the par 3s. The number in parentheses gives the rank of the hole in difficulty.
#2 Eden: 3.439 (6)
#5 Short: 3.194 (12)
#8 Biarritz 3.297 (10)
#12 Redan 3.523 (3)
Only one hole - #15 Westward Ho, par 5 - played under par that day, and then just barely, at 4.961.
At Bandon Trails, #3 (a par 4) averaged 5.205. #2, a par 3, averaged 3.923, and #1 averaged 4.538. Brutal start to that round. Also, the shortest hole on the course, #5 listed at 126 yards, averaged 3.603.
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I just looked at the scoring stats. Looks to me like the 82.6 average at Old Mac was for the women. I think the men's average in medal play was 76.
The 4 toughest holes there against par, in order starting with the hardest, were #10 (Bottle), #9 (Cape), #12 (Redan) and #11 (Road). The field averaged slightly more than 2 strokes over par on those 4 holes alone. i.e. each was almost a perfect half par, from the hard side.
Of the par 3s, the Biarritz was easily the toughest, at 3.523. The field averaged nearly 1.5 strokes over par on the par 3s. The number in parentheses gives the rank of the hole in difficulty.
#2 Eden: 3.439 (6)
#5 Short: 3.194 (12)
#8 Biarritz 3.297 (10)
#12 Redan 3.523 (3)
Only one hole - #15 Westward Ho, par 5 - played under par that day, and then just barely, at 4.961.
At Bandon Trails, #3 (a par 4) averaged 5.205. #2, a par 3, averaged 3.923, and #1 averaged 4.538. Brutal start to that round. Also, the shortest hole on the course, #5 listed at 126 yards, averaged 3.603.
Jim N: I tired for a few minutes to make some sense of the scoring averages for Old Macdonald, but then gave it up as useless. It's all dependent on the wind and on the hole locations -- #9 is a pretty good example -- that is not one of the hardest holes on the course, unless the southwest wind is blowing.
Likewise, the only thing I got from your analysis of Bandon Trails is that those first three holes must have been playing into the wind. And did they change par on the third hole for the event? In real life, it's a short par-5, though it would usually play downwind in summer and be easily reachable for these guys.
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Tom - they made it a par 4 for the event.
Is that really necessary? Are we worried about par in amateur event? Just play the course as it is. I know par is a fictitious number anyway, but when a whole plays more than 1 stroke over par on average for a fairly elite field I think that is ridiculous.
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I remember at Chambers Bay that the course really beat the heck out of them in the stroke play but the more they played it the better they scored and I presume it was because they learned how to play it - in the end they wound up with the best players advancing and I presume that will be the case here. I can't wait to see it on TV.
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Tom - they made it a par 4 for the event.
Is that really necessary? Are we worried about par in amateur event? Just play the course as it is. I know par is a fictitious number anyway, but when a whole plays more than 1 stroke over par on average for a fairly elite field I think that is ridiculous.
The summer wind became a winter wind and the USGA setup back fired, I was surprised to see #3 change to a par 4.
Frankly, a little tired of "the USGA set-up", what happened to play it as you find it???
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Tom - they made it a par 4 for the event.
Is that really necessary? Are we worried about par in amateur event? Just play the course as it is. I know par is a fictitious number anyway, but when a whole plays more than 1 stroke over par on average for a fairly elite field I think that is ridiculous.
I don't know the hole in question,but it's possible/probable that it was made a 4-par for pace of play.
If there's a 5-par that's reachable by half the field,you frequently get a bottleneck with so many guys waiting for the green to clear.Sometimes it's better to just move the tee markers forward so everyone will be able to reach.
Again,I don't know if this is what happened at Bandon,but it's done.
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Joe, I'd like to hear your opinion of what George Bahto was trying to ask?
Are the players adapting to the game at Bandon? This of course implies they are not well suited to play the game the way it does on tawny fast turf.
Also, Would you say it's their unfamiliarity with the ground game that yielded high scores, or the nature of the architecture, or both?
Thanx and feel free to expound in any direction you'd like.
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I remember at Chambers Bay that the course really beat the heck out of them in the stroke play but the more they played it the better they scored and I presume it was because they learned how to play it - in the end they wound up with the best players advancing and I presume that will be the case here. I can't wait to see it on TV.
Same at Merion a few years ago...
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I remember at Chambers Bay that the course really beat the heck out of them in the stroke play but the more they played it the better they scored and I presume it was because they learned how to play it - in the end they wound up with the best players advancing and I presume that will be the case here. I can't wait to see it on TV.
Same at Merion a few years ago...
There are two reasons why the averages went down after the stroke play at Chambers.
The course was firmer than what USGA wanted so they drenched the place with water after the stroke play was done. The course played much softer in the match play. They also moved up many of the tees so that the course played a lot shorter.
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I think the players are struggling a bit with the short game. From what I've seen most of the men's field is trying to play the ground game, they just aren't sure how to execute. The player I carried for during qualifying was very comfortable hitting 8-9 irons chips, at times too comfortable. There where several instances at Old Mac where I thought he should have lofted the ball in the air (front side of #6 at Old Mac for instance). At this level the players can hit the lofted chip shots off the tight lies. So sometimes when presented with an opportunity to hit it in the air, they should IMO.
Old Macdonald requires that you get your golf ball in the right sections of those massive greens. When you've missed those sections getting your lag putts close is almost impossible. And if you've missed greens there is so much contour to deal with that a highly skilled players best option is often to carry it over some of the slope, taking it out of play. I think some of the field had convinced themselves that shot wasn't the right one BEFORE they got here and that is complicating their thought process. I'm not saying they shouldn't be playing it along the ground, they just shouldn't be married to that shot all the time.
As for #3 at Trails, I think moving the tees up and playing it like a par 4 was a great idea. None of the players I seen even considered laying up short of the center bunker because of how far the hole played yardage wise. So most of the field was trying to land their tee ball on either side of that trap, which is a really narrow target. And by making it a par 4 it forced the players into thinking they had to play it like a par 4. Great idea by the USGA IMO.
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Joe, that is very interesting as at last year's US Am at Chambers I thought players were using the sand wedge way too much. It was pretty rare to see people using bump and run even as the lies were very tight and rolling the ball was definitely the better play.
Perhaps a lot of these players got burned from last year and have over-adjusted?
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One of the most amazing things about watching pro golf to me is how terrific they are at bump and run type shots. All you see week in and week out is aerial drop and stop golf, yet when they have to - either on recovery shots, or the rare firm and fast type of dictated shot - they manage to hit it remarkably close time and time again.
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I wonder if weekend scores are always better, simply because the better golfers are left and the lesser golfers are gone.
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I wonder if weekend scores are always better, simply because the better golfers are left and the lesser golfers are gone.
I think you're right with the following adjustment.It's not so much that the remaining golfers are "better",just that they're playing better.
As I re-read your line,it looks like that's what you probably meant.So now,I just agree without the adjustment.
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That is indeed what I meant, and I like your wording better. You are a better writer than I - or at least wrote better in this instance. :)
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That is indeed what I meant, and I like your wording better. You are a better writer than I - or at least wrote better in this instance. :)
I'm glad I re-read more closely.
Whenever I see "lesser" player in the same sentence as a USGA event,I usually think the worst.It never ceases to amaze me that guys who can't play dead would diss someone who's qualified for a tournament at this level.There aren't any "lesser" players in these fields.
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I think the players are struggling a bit with the short game. From what I've seen most of the men's field is trying to play the ground game, they just aren't sure how to execute. The player I carried for during qualifying was very comfortable hitting 8-9 irons chips, at times too comfortable. There where several instances at Old Mac where I thought he should have lofted the ball in the air (front side of #6 at Old Mac for instance). At this level the players can hit the lofted chip shots off the tight lies. So sometimes when presented with an opportunity to hit it in the air, they should IMO.
Old Macdonald requires that you get your golf ball in the right sections of those massive greens. When you've missed those sections getting your lag putts close is almost impossible. And if you've missed greens there is so much contour to deal with that a highly skilled players best option is often to carry it over some of the slope, taking it out of play. I think some of the field had convinced themselves that shot wasn't the right one BEFORE they got here and that is complicating their thought process. I'm not saying they shouldn't be playing it along the ground, they just shouldn't be married to that shot all the time.
Joe,
Interesting color. This shot separates the men from the boys off that turf IMO and sounds like the right call in certain instances such as you describe. Can't wait to see the telecast.
P.S. Please, under no circumstances recommend that shot to me next month.... ;)
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To Cliff's question: Having played in a number of US Public Links qualifiers (before joining a private club) I can attest that there are few, if any, players in the field without anytime access to private clubs. They exploit loopholes to compete in the Championship. There may be bonafide public golf course players in qualifiers but eventual roster for the event itself is essentially made of collegiate players.
Does anyone really believe Ms. Woods doesn't play at at least one private club?
WW
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Folks- forgive me while I gush a bit. This is exciting for me to read Joe's account of the PubLinks. Here is why: I had a course in college that analysed culture. Two different observations stuck with me. Pop culture was defined as a mass audience that consumed the culture from an artist from afar and the audience and artist would never genuinely interact. High culture (forgive the snotty title) was explained as a more intimate culture where the audience and the artist interacted and knew each other- discussed and critiqued & appreciated the culture together. Where am I going with this? For most of my life, I have been an enthusiastic sports fan of major league teams and sports (pop culture). I witnessed from afar, never knew the players etc.... In recent years, I have decreased my interest in major league sports and replaced it with an interest in golf and GCA. I am a frequent flyer at Bandon Dunes. I take Joe as my looper when he is available. I really enjoy are rounds together talking about golf, GCA and the lastest at Bandon Dunes. It feels like "high culture" to read his reports from the PubLinks- I (as well as many of us) have played the same holes- been thwarted by the same brillant design (although I am a hack and these players are stix)- I can feel Joe's enthusiasm for the event. I'll never set foot on Wrigley Field or Candelstick Park- or meet & discuss the nature of baseball and football with the players on those teams. But golf, Bandon Dunes, this DG allows us enthusiasts to actually feel closer to the sport we love/hate but can't leave ;)
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Very cool to see Old Mac on TV. Hopefully we'll get to see some of the earlier holes on today's coverage. Charlie Rymer was really pushing the brown, firm/fast, ground game agenda on air as well.
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The men's medalist hit it right on 16 to where he could see the flag, and then proceeded to close out his match there. Afterwards, when interviewed he said he was using a local caddy and the caddy tells him to hit it places he wouldn't normally choose.
Joe,
Are the caddies at Bandon telling the players to hit it right to remove the blindness of the alps?
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I watched for the first time last night and I couldn't help but notice the greens on OldMac were very fuzzy. Was that because of the wind? Are they trying to keep the balls from moving with long greens or are they that way all the time to give the course an old time feel?
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Was looking at the scoring summary just now, and they must have moved up the tees on #9 at Old Macdonald for today's matches. Two of the guys made 2's at the ninth!
Also, from what I've seen there has not been a single birdie at #11 or #12 during the match play portion of the competition. In the 12 matches I checked (3rd round and quarterfinals), players were +14 on each of those two holes ... that's 2/3 of their total over par (+37 for 12 matches).
Players were +6 today on #8 after being under par the previous round ... I wonder where the hole is for the quarterfinal?
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They used the front tpin for the Redan yesterday; very difficult to get close to down wind. They said it was playing 218 yards.
I was shocked to see the pin on the left half of the 18th green; I thought Mike Keiser didn't like that hole location?
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They used the front tpin for the Redan yesterday; very difficult to get close to down wind. They said it was playing 218 yards.
I was shocked to see the pin on the left half of the 18th green; I thought Mike Kieser didn't like that hole location?
Methinks the USGA is setting pin positions, not Mike Keiser.
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Yes, the USGA is in charge of hole locations. And I had a sneaking suspicion they would use all the ones Mike won't let them use for everyday play, like the one on 18. Sadly, not many of the matches got that far.
#1 played a lot harder this morning, too ... guessing that the pin was up on one of the plateaus.
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I watched for the first time last night and I couldn't help but notice the greens on OldMac were very fuzzy. Was that because of the wind? Are they trying to keep the balls from moving with long greens or are they that way all the time to give the course an old time feel?
I do not think the greens are fuzzy. They are fescue greens and so they look different than anything else you would see on TV. They look very similiar to the greens at Chambers Bay last year.
The greens are still rolling faster than the rest of year. If they had them any faster, then balls would start rolling in 30 mph winds.
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It was a fun day when Mike was with us and he first saw the upper left plateau, possible pin, on the 18th.
We pretty much knew what to expect from him and he went right for it (our jugular) - it was sort of, “we’re not going to pin that spot, are we” (not his EXACT words but close) -
Our response was “sort-of” a guarded NO - but under our breathes we sort of laughingly whispered – not unless you’re out of town. Mike”
that is one great pin placement
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This has been a treat to watch. I hope Bandon Dune stays in the loop for these events. A Walker cup would be s cool.
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Watching the semis now. Wind howling. Players forced to make decisions with and again' the wind or pay the price. Great stuff.
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One player had a 75-yard putt on one hole with a shared green. She four-putted. :o
Course looks great -- terrific sheen to the greens and fairway.
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Sure wish the coverage was in true HD.... looks like a widescreen 480P telecast to me by TGC, just like their coverage of the LPGA. :(
But I'm enjoying it very much nonetheless. ;D
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Tom D;
The cup on #8 this morning was cut immediately past the swale, in the left quadrant.
I didn't see the location for the tee on #9, but would guess it was on the new tee, right of the 8th green. Drivable even for us mortals with the wind as it is today.
Tom
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Wow, I just read the report of the quarter-final matches ... one of them had an ugly ending.
J. J. Spaun of California was one down through 16 holes. Both he and his opponent reached the 17th hole in two. Spaun marked his ball to line up an eagle putt to try and get back even ... and then was told that his ball was actually not on the green ... it's hard to tell with the grass there, and I guess they've painted white dots so they can make rulings on this. Anyway, two-stroke penalty, and match over. Ugh.
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Wow, I just read the report of the quarter-final matches ... one of them had an ugly ending.
J. J. Spaun of California was one down through 16 holes. Both he and his opponent reached the 17th hole in two. Spaun marked his ball to line up an eagle putt to try and get back even ... and then was told that his ball was actually not on the green ... it's hard to tell with the grass there, and I guess they've painted white dots so they can make rulings on this. Anyway, two-stroke penalty, and match over. Ugh.
At the Mid-Am in 2007 i was in the 10 man playoff for five spots to get in match play. I was in the first group of five to play #1 at BT. I hit the green in two but just barely. Another player was on his way to double, saw me mark my ball, and told the rules official I was not on the green. The official came over and said that I was. I thought that was a really jerk move.
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They showed a funny stat on yesterday's broadcast:
Stimp:
Greens -11
Fairways - 10
;D
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Tom Y;
They can show the 'stat' if they want, but it is fabrication. There is no way the fairways are 10s. Possibly immediately outside of the 'edge' of the green, but certainly not on a level lie in the fairway portion of the cut. It is simply TV looking for a story, drama, ratings. And that's ok by me...it just shouldn't be advertised as 'truth'.
Just my opinion, based on my knowledge of the turf at OM and the Resort in general.
More wind tomorrow!
Tom
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This was an absolute treat to watch on tv this evening. Even my almost 5-year old daughter was enamored with "how windy" it was and how the ball would roll all over the place. ;D It's a good thing older sister was at the grocery store with mom or I'd have been relegated to "Good Luck Charlie."
The winners scores today were Even and +5 on the men's side and +5 and +9 on the women's side. Really entertaining golf to watch and par was just a number. Great stuff!
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She four-putted. :o
Technically a 3-putt as her first putt finished off the putting surface ...
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Is the USGA happy with OM for this tournament? What about the players? I'm wondering if more USGA events might come to Bandon.
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I think the USGA loves Bandon. We'll never see a pro event there, but I think all the amateur's can be played there and probably will be at some point. I wouldn't be surprised if it was Keiser's goal to host every amateur championship that the USGA contests. Would absolutely love to see the Walker Cup there; the Curtis Cup was really fun to watch.
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It was a fun day when Mike was with us and he first saw the upper left plateau, possible pin, on the 18th.
We pretty much knew what to expect from him and he went right for it (our jugular) - it was sort of, “we’re not going to pin that spot, are we” (not his EXACT words but close) -
Our response was “sort-of” a guarded NO - but under our breathes we sort of laughingly whispered – not unless you’re out of town. Mike”
that is one great pin placement
+1
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Tom D;
The cup on #8 this morning was cut immediately past the swale, in the left quadrant.
I didn't see the location for the tee on #9, but would guess it was on the new tee, right of the 8th green. Drivable even for us mortals with the wind as it is today.
Tom
new tee? cool
there is some dilemma there between the 8th green and the 9th's tee boxes?????
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Would be interesting to take a poll as to how many people watched the Pub Links primarily to: (a) see Old MacDonald vs. (b) see the matches.
Not be fair on this web site.
However, would be interesting for USGA to see whether some more remote courses could be used for their championships by increasing TV revenue (in lieu of ticket sales).
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Tom Y;
They can show the 'stat' if they want, but it is fabrication. There is no way the fairways are 10s.
No doubt.
The greens are probably not 11 either.
Neither is Bandon a "pure links."
But don't you think that the differential between fairway and green "stimp" is probably less than any course in the USA that we will see a championship being played. In other words, the stat, despite being a fabrication, is still a fair indication of how different this course is from our typical American course. And that is why I thought it was cool.
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I tuned in today to see the course, no doubt about it. If there were playing on almost any other venue, no way I tune in today.
That being said, that back 9 was just painful to watch. Its only 2 guys and it took them almost 2:45 to bring it home after the turn. I understand its high stakes and all for these guys, but cmon, that was just ridiculously slow.
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Congrats to Tom and Jim.....I thought the courses showed off great in the telecasts.
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Kalen- I agree. The plumb bobbing was winceful. Also, Dodd's father on her bag- constantly checking her alignment on every shot and verbally coaching her up to the moment of her backswing was very distracting.
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Kalen- I agree. The plumb bobbing was winceful. Also, Dodd's father on her bag- constantly checking her alignment on every shot and verbally coaching her up to the moment of her backswing was very distracting.
I must admit, I got a little cackle seeing the frustration on that kids face who was wearing the red shirt. He would get flustered every time he flew his ball on the green and it ended up 30-40 feet past the hole. You would think after an entire week there, he'd figure out those kind of shots don't fly.
Overall though, I thought the course looked fantastic. That was my 1st time seeing the extent of that Alps hole on 16 and I almost laughed at the size of that dune that must be negotiated when going for the green. I'm guessing there are a few elderly senior players who would like to blow that thing up. ;)
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As much as I hate EVER hearing about the dreaded Stimpmeter, as a former Bandon caddie (and I'd be interested hearing from Joe or other Bandon vets), the 11/10 readings for greens/fairways doesn't seem unrealistic at all. I've had players putt from over 50 yards off the green in certain situations given that it was the best play and the difference in speed is very slight. I would add though that downwind, the green readings could be 14 and into the wind as slow as 7 - depending on slope obviously.
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I watched some of each telecast and I thought that the course looked great. I appreciated the commentary about the architecture and the very special opportunity of holding the PubLinks for both men and women at the same facility.
The most astounding thing to me is that they hosted a national championship on a golf course that was open for only a year. Has that ever been done in the modern era? I rather doubt it.
That, to me, is another feather in the cap of Mike Keiser. Like everything else about Bandon, the notion that one of its courses would be both worthy and ready to host a national championship only a year removed from Opening Day is simply astounding.
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Old Macdonald was opened June 1st of last year so it has been open more then a year.
As for the Turf, I'll defer all of those issues to Tom Jefferson. If he says the fairways aren't 10, then they aren't 10. I'm not sure the greens where 11...but like Tom said, it sounds good on TV.
I'm curious how come no one is talking about Mills's drop on 10. He hit it through 10 green to the back of 5 green. The USGA official MADE him take a drop of of 5 green to play his next shot. I understand the ruling if it was a different green but 5 and 10 are the same green! They don't get a drop at the old course during the open at St. Andrews!! They had to play shots of the practice putting green at Oakmont a couple of years ago. Im glad Mills lost the hole but I think the USGA dropped the ball when the decided to call #5 and #10 greens separate.
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Tom Y; Regarding the relative similarities in speed and turf species and selection between the greens and fairways, you are no doubt correct, IMO.
(With the possible exception of the Old Course)
Joe; Of course, the supt. for Old Mac, Eric Johnson, and his colleague Ken Nice are the experts ('masters', if you will) regarding turf at Old Mac, as Ken grew it in and Eric has been fine tuning it for some months now. Those two deserve the kudos for the purity of the playing surfaces, and the overall phenomenal presentation of the course.
Regarding the 5th/10th green issue, in preparation for the championship and with a bit of consulting from Jim Urbina, the two greens, once mowed as one, lately have been mowed separately. If you stood on the turf between the two, you would not only see a slight difference in turf height and character between there and the greens, but you would also see the lines of white paint dots denoting the respective green edges.
As to why Mr. Mills received, or was forced into, a drop from #5, Ms. Dodd one day and in an almost identical situation, had to play her ball from where it lay on the 5th, as she was playing the 10th, I do not know. The rules and their interpretation, at least to the observer, are quizzical sometimes.
Best,
Tom
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My intention was always that #5 and #10 greens were separate, although they started mowing them together when the course opened and had not stopped the last time I played there [which was on Opening Day a year ago]. I'm happy to hear they are separated now. From a Rules standpoint, there ought to be a drop in play, because if you wind up way over from #10 fairway, there are some places on the right front of #5 green where you couldn't get a putt to stay on #10 green at all ... and if they mowed them together and called it a double green, then there would be no option to drop.
I guess they could have a local rule that says players are FORCED to drop, if they want to keep players from taking a wedge out on the green and taking a divot -- that's always a legal option, although not one very many players would be comfortable taking up. I am curious if the young lady in the semi-final match really was forced to play her ball from on the #5 green back to #10, or if she just OPTED to do so. If she was forced to do so, I believe that was an incorrect ruling, with the two greens marked as separate. Surely they didn't just change it up for Sunday's play?
P.S. As to hosting tournaments early, my recollection is that the Ocean Course at Kiawah hosted the Ryder Cup before it ever opened for public play. It was certainly within a couple of months of its opening, anyway.
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Joe,
Thanks for the edit/correction. My trips out there must be blending together.
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Tom
Then isn't having the 10th green and the 5th green so big and so close a design flaw?
Corbin Mills hit such a bad second shot into 10 green that his third should have been in a place that didn't allow him to get it close to the pin. Allowing him to take a drop and hit a wedge to 10 feet after he poorly planned and executed his second shot isn't in the spirit of the game or links golf in particular IMO.
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Joe,
I believe the putting green at Oakmont played as OOB for the Open and does on a day-to-day basis.
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It was a real treat watching the coverage on TV. I think the thing that impressed me the most was how good Mills was hitting the various wedge chip shots around the green. Something that is completely beyond my skill set.
I wonder if the players fell in love with links golf the way most of us do when we first experience Bandon courses or if because it is a competition they come away more frustrated.
+1, golf as it was meant to be!
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Since 5 and 10 are now mowed as separate greens if you are 5 plating 10 (and vice versa) they are wrong putting greens. You get a free drop when your ball is on gthe wrong putting green at the nearest point of relief. I surmise Mills asked the refereee if he was on a wrong putting green and was allowed to drop off. The day before, when (Dodds?) putted from nearly the same position she suffered a loss of hole penalty. She was apparently unaware of the infraction, and her opponent had the opportunity to call the penalty, but didn't. It was all moot and didn't change the outcome of the match because (Dodds?) lost the hole anyway by scoring higher. OR, while it appeared on TV that she was one the green, when in fact she was not.
As a referee there are two schools of thought as to how much to intercede in the match. Hopefully the referee was aware of the situation and was ready to ac if a claim was made by the opponent. And I was suprised the USGA didn't have a rules official assigned to the telecast. The commentary by the talent was near abysmal from a rules standpoint, IMHO.
Other than that I thought the courses and the resort came out +1, especially with the blue skies. I'd guess BDGR has been saving them up since last November :P
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Tom
Then isn't having the 10th green and the 5th green so big and so close a design flaw?
Corbin Mills hit such a bad second shot into 10 green that his third should have been in a place that didn't allow him to get it close to the pin. Allowing him to take a drop and hit a wedge to 10 feet after he poorly planned and executed his second shot isn't in the spirit of the game or links golf in particular IMO.
Joe:
It isn't ideal that #10 and #5 are so close. The fifth green wasn't going to be that big initially.
However, the second half of your argument is ridiculous. It is entirely consistent with links golf that sometimes a bad miss will result in a fairly easy recovery -- while in other cases, you're completely screwed. I did not see the shot in question, but I can't think of too many places around the fifth green where it would be easy to get close to a flag on #10.
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Tom
Then isn't having the 10th green and the 5th green so big and so close a design flaw?
Corbin Mills hit such a bad second shot into 10 green that his third should have been in a place that didn't allow him to get it close to the pin. Allowing him to take a drop and hit a wedge to 10 feet after he poorly planned and executed his second shot isn't in the spirit of the game or links golf in particular IMO.
Joe:
It isn't ideal that #10 and #5 are so close. The fifth green wasn't going to be that big initially.
However, the second half of your argument is ridiculous. It is entirely consistent with links golf that sometimes a bad miss will result in a fairly easy recovery -- while in other cases, you're completely screwed. I did not see the shot in question, but I can't think of too many places around the fifth green where it would be easy to get close to a flag on #10.
I saw both Dodd's putt and Mill's chip and it appeared based on what the Golf Channel folks reported that she was allowed to putt but that he was forced to drop. However, Dodd had a line the 10th flag and Mills did not, so maybe it was misreported and he was allowed a free drop to avoid taking a divot in the 5th geren.
As far as an easy recovery, from watching on TV I would say Corbin hit a pretty remarkable shot. He flopped it high, probably some 40-50 yards, landed it softly just off and on top of the back left ridge of the 10th green and it rolled down the hill to within about 15 feet. I'll bet 3 times out of 4 he would have been left with 50.
All in all a great event and a great venue!
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Tom
Then isn't having the 10th green and the 5th green so big and so close a design flaw?
Corbin Mills hit such a bad second shot into 10 green that his third should have been in a place that didn't allow him to get it close to the pin. Allowing him to take a drop and hit a wedge to 10 feet after he poorly planned and executed his second shot isn't in the spirit of the game or links golf in particular IMO.
I don't see them as a design flaw, but I didn't see the topography prior to construction. When two holes share a topgraphical feature they have to be close together. I've never seen a ball on 10 when playing playing the 5th and you already said that it was a poorly planned and executed shot(on a 480 yard par 4), so the problem seems to be the play rather than design. Are you advocating a more penal architctural style which would be the opposite of all the resort has done in the last ten years to speed up play.
So he hit a great wedge shot to 10 feet. He had the advantage of wind against and hit the shot to a 2 yard deep section which allowed the shot to be successful. That's how he won the tournament. I have no idea how taking a legal drop isn't in the spirit of the game or links golf so I won;t further answer.
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I watched some of each telecast and I thought that the course looked great. I appreciated the commentary about the architecture and the very special opportunity of holding the PubLinks for both men and women at the same facility.
The most astounding thing to me is that they hosted a national championship on a golf course that was open for only a year. Has that ever been done in the modern era? I rather doubt it.
That, to me, is another feather in the cap of Mike Keiser. Like everything else about Bandon, the notion that one of its courses would be both worthy and ready to host a national championship only a year removed from Opening Day is simply astounding.
One of our least favorite courses (or is it one of our favorite courses?) was awarded a major tournament before the course was even opened....
Of course, Erin Hills.
It opened in 2006 and hosted the women's APL in 2008. And then it has been redesigned every year since.
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The shot Corbin Mills was 'forced' to hit from in front of the 5th green into the 10th green was difficult, no doubt. Damn near impossible for the handicapped golfer to get that one down in three once in 10 tries. But for a scratch player on his way to winning the APL? Well it wasn't nearly as difficult for him to get that shot close as it would've been had the USGA made him play it off of the 5th green where it had finished. And that is my point, sometimes you've hit a shot so bad that you just can't get there from where your at.
Corbin should have had to either play his wedge from off the 5th green, hit a putter down off the front of 10 green or concede the hole. As it was he made a 5 and if his opponent hadn't made a stellar 4, Corbin would have pushed, or worse won, a hole from Alcatraz.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-3HDjgCNxjZM/ThKmxUuTBCI/AAAAAAAABA8/q86hqylpbO8/s800/%25252310%252520and%252520%2525235%252520flags%252520at%252520Old%252520Mac%252520with%252520%25252317%252520flag%252520at%252520Pac%252520WAY%252520in%252520the%252520distance%2525207.4.11.jpg)
This picture is from earlier today (7.4.11). The pin in the foreground is the 10th, the one in the background is the 5th (and WAY in the back is 17 at Pacific. But you guys already know all this). You could have putted your ball from the 10th pin to the 5th pin and the consistency of the grass under your golf ball would have been the same the WHOLE way.
Old Macdonald, as it was presented for the last couple of days of the matches and the condition it is still in as of this afternoon, is amazing. Fast, rock hard and the greens rolling in all their glory. I'm a Pacific Dunes disciple through and through but my argument wouldn't have been as loud this afternoon had someone said Old Macdonald was the best course on property.
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But Joe, Old MacDonald is the best course on the property.
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My thoughts and observations after watching the Fri and Sat telecasts:
1) Old Mac looked amazing visually. The size and elevation changes of the greens was greater than I imagined. The Alps hole looked spectacular.
2) Friday looked very windy. The players appeared to be struggling. On Saturday the winds were lighter and the players were executing very well.
3) The USGA has to be thrilled. Both matches went down to the 36th and 37th holes. The course and the matches were very compelling - back and forth leads, near holes in 1 by both groups, etc. I should not have spent as much time as I did watching the matches, but I couldn't pull myself away. Playing women's and men's on the same course was fun to watch.
4) The announcers seemed to love the course and Bandon in general. Lots of love for Mike Keiser - perhaps 1 mention of him every hour. Nice shout-outs to Tom Doak and Jim Urbina too.
5) As usual, the broadcasters were too lazy to provide much beyond a passing mention of the strategy and origins of the template holes. It was much easier for them tospend time reminding of us Michelle We's Pub Links victory many years ago. Yawn.
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In regards to Morgan's point #4 as I watched I kept thinking how much did Bandon have to pay to get the Publinks on TGC? It was like one giant infomercial. How many times did they show where Bandon was located, talk about the how high the four courses were ranked, how Keiser searched the whole country for land like this, and how it is the truest links experience in the US? All of this is true but when it was like watching one of those Hawaii infomercials Rolfing used to do when someone wasn't hitting a shot.
Has the Publinks ever been televised before? Perhaps it has but I only watched this one because it was on Old Mac.
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In regards to Morgan's point #4 as I watched I kept thinking how much did Bandon have to pay to get the Publinks on TGC? It was like one giant infomercial. How many times did they show where Bandon was located, talk about the how high the four courses were ranked, how Keiser searched the whole country for land like this, and how it is the truest links experience in the US? All of this is true but when it was like watching one of those Hawaii infomercials Rolfing used to do when someone wasn't hitting a shot.
Has the Publinks ever been televised before? Perhaps it has but I only watched this one because it was on Old Mac.
It has been televised before, several times, if memory serves. I vaguely recall seeing Trevor Immelman for the first time during a Pub Links, but it could have been something else. And I think they televised it when Ryan Moore was winning every amateur tourney in sight. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think they have an agreement with the USGA to televise one of a few different am events - the Pub Links, the Mid-Am, the Senior Am, etc - and it rotates somewhat from year to year, though there are probably allowances when someone compelling comes on the scene.
I'd call the frequent touting a win-win! :)
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At the Mid-Am in 2007 i was in the 10 man playoff for five spots to get in match play. I was in the first group of five to play #1 at BT. I hit the green in two but just barely. Another player was on his way to double, saw me mark my ball, and told the rules official I was not on the green. The official came over and said that I was. I thought that was a really jerk move.
In match play, I might agree, but in that situation, wouldn't that be protecting the field? Maybe a better way to do it would have been to point it out to you first, and then discuss it with you. If there was still a doubt, then call in the rules official.
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To Cliff's question: Having played in a number of US Public Links qualifiers (before joining a private club) I can attest that there are few, if any, players in the field without anytime access to private clubs. They exploit loopholes to compete in the Championship. There may be bonafide public golf course players in qualifiers but eventual roster for the event itself is essentially made of collegiate players.
Does anyone really believe Ms. Woods doesn't play at at least one private club?
WW
Indeed, during the finals the announcers said that Kevin Chappell had called in and said that fellow Fresnoite 'Derek Ernst plays at Belmont Country Club, er Belmont Golf Club'. The announcers, I think, were trying to drop Kevin Chappell's name, not drop a dime on Ernst, and it was funny that they tried to catch themselves and change it the name of this private club from country club to golf club.