Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Adrian_Stiff on June 09, 2011, 05:53:51 PM
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Golf Worlds Top 100 in England
1 ROYAL BIRKDALE
2 SUNNINGDALE OLD
3 WOODHALL SPA HOTCHKIN
4 ROYAL LYTHAM & ST ANNES
5 ROYAL LIVERPOOL
6 ROYAL ST GEORGES
7 WALTON HEATH OLD
8 SAUNTON EAST
9 WENTWORTH WEST
10 SUNNINGDALE NEW
11 GANTON
12 WEST SUSSEX
13 THE BERKSHIRE RED
14 ALWOODLEY
15 FORMBY
16 ST ENEDOC CHURCH
17 HILLSIDE
18 ROYAL CINQUE PORTS
19 NOTTS
20 ROYAL WEST NORFOLK
21 ST GEORGES HILL
22 SILLOTH ON SOLWAY
23 RYE
24 SWINLEY FOREST
25 WOBURN MARQUESS
26 WENTWORTH EAST
27 WOBURN DUKES
28 LITTLE ASTON
29 THE BERKSHIRE BLUE
30 HUNSTANTON
31 ALDEBURGH
32 WALTON HEATH NEW
33 BURNHAM & BERROW
34 FERNDOWN
35 HANKLEY COMMON
36 LINDRICK
37 WOKING
38 WORPLESDON
39 CHART HILLS
40 BROADSTONE
41 THE ADDINGTON
42 ROYAL ASHDOWN FOREST OLD
43 NEW ZEALAND
44 WEST HILL
45 REMEDY OAK
46 BELFRY BRABAZON
47 ST MELLION NICKLAUS
48 SOUTHPORT & AINSDALE
49 WEST LANCASHIRE
50 LIPHOOK
51 SEACROFT
52 MOORTOWN
53 TREVOSE
54 PRINCES
55 SEATON CAREW BRABAZON
56 WALLASEY
57 DELAMERE FOREST
58 PERRANPORTH
59 LITTLESTONE
60 ASHRIDGE
61 BEAU DESERT
62 ROYAL NORTH DEVON
63 IPSWICH
64 THE GROVE
65 LUFFENHAM HEATH
66 BEARWOOD LAKES
67 FULFORD
68 SAUNTON WEST
69 PARKSTONE
70 CROWBOROUGH BEACON
71 ISLE OF PURBECK
72 THE LONDON HERITAGE
73 SHERINGHAM
74 HAYLING
75 BAMBURGH CASTLE
76 BLACKWELL
77 GOODWOOD
78 EAST DEVON
79 BLACKMOOR
80 WOODBRIDGE
81 FOREST OF ARDEN (ARDEN)
82 FAIRHAVEN
83 THURLESTONE
84 BROCKET HALL PALMERSTON
85 WOBURN DUCHESS
86 FOREST PINES
87 KINGS LYNN
88 EAST SUSSEX NATIONAL WEST
89 STOKE PARK
90 FELIXSTOWE FERRY
91 KNOLE PARK
92 BERKHAMSTED
93 THE WISLEY
94 THE OXFORDSHIRE
95 BUCKINGHAMSHIRE
96 THE PLAYERS CLUB
97 SHERWOOD FOREST
98 HINDHEAD
99 ROYAL WORLINGTON & NEWMARKET
100 ST ANNES OLD LINKS
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Let the fur fly!!! ;D
(http://theweeklycat.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/cats_fighting_102006_5.jpg)
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Possibly the most ridiculous single entry on any of these lists I have ever seen Any guesses as to which single listing gets me saying that?
It's not Silloth being so low (below RCP and the Berkshire Red, both courses I love but know aren't as good as Silloth). It's not Ganton being outside the top 10 (absurd as that is), it's not Hoylake (again, I love it) being above RSG (in 6th! Idiots.) No, there's a course included in this list that, beautiful and charming though it is, simply does not belong in this list, simply has no place in a top anything list, except for setting that completely and utterly devalues this list.
Bamburgh Castle. At 75. I can immediately think of three courses in the Northumbria which are (clearly, without any question, even to a member of BC) superior and not listed.
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Mark, I was going to guess Bamburgh Castle, then I scrolled down and saw you'd actually listed it in your post!
No Huntercombe, either.
Congratulations to Adrian on TPC coming in at 96.
As far as I can tell, these are all in the exact order they're found in the GB&I list, down to the mid 40s where the GB&I Top 100 ends. That being so, I can only assume the same votes led to both lists, which means that while Golf World only lists its 101-200 in GB&I alphabetically, this list gives us a look at those that only just miss out (in the high 40s and low 50s).
I'd have thought Royal Wimbledon might have cracked it for a spot.
Westwood Ho! at 62?!
Cinque Ports is too low at 18, or The Berk (Red), Alwoodley and St Enodoc are too high...
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R2 No1 and 3, those raters really love a flat lie! ;D Neither in my top 10.
Have played 29 of top 50 and 40 of 100. I can suggest another 20 tracks that are as derserving of a place in 50-100.
It sells magazines...
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I am disappointed there is no room for Huntercombe, Stoneham, Prestbury, Camberley Heath, Northamptonshire Co and Cavendish.
Ciao
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Swiinley Forest cant even crack the Top20 and The Belfry cracks the Top50 - I'll be damned ???
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Despite some cracking links courses there's a 50/50 split on links and inland in the top ten and virtually the same in the top 20, England rocks for all round golf!!
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Brian - too short, too expensive & too private? Ps I love the place!
Interesting to see Deal's improvements are down to Troon Golf.
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I am disappointed there is no room for Huntercombe, Stoneham, Prestbury, Camberley Heath, Harborne, Northamptonshire Co, Cavendish, Southfield and Coxmoor.
Putting my money where my mouth is:
Sherwood Forest, Forest of Arden, Blackwell, Belfry and St Mellion OUT.
Huntercombe, Northamptonshire Co (this one is an absolute no-brainer because its big and brawny - just what these folks look for), Cavendish, Camberley Heath and Stoneham IN.
More controversially; Hayling, Westward Ho!, S&A & Hillside (the most over-rated course I ahve ever come across) OUT
Prestbury, Harborne, Southfield and Coxmoor IN.
Ciao
Sean - what is the issue with Sherwood - from the photo tours I have seen and the reviews, it looks stunning - after playing Beau the other week this was near the top of my "want to play" list (the affordable one!)?
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<<< ATTENTION K-MART SHOPPERS !!! ATTENTION K-MART SHOPPERS !!! >>>
Effective IMMEDIATELY and until further notice the England Section of our Fine Golf Courses Collection willl no longer stock Woodhall Spa (Hotchkin).
Recent placements of the course in Golf World and Golf Magazine rankings, you have told us, no longer represent the value-for-ranking you have come to depend upon from us.
Although we believe the course is very good and, as you, our loyal customers, will note, we do not put much stock (heh, we are a retailer) in rankings (they are not aimed at their customers or ours but directly or indirectly at their advertisers), nevertheless we believe the course is overranked to the point where our customers and their expectations may be affected.
Indeed, we have read carefully your comments placed in our BlueLight Comments Box. We understand these comment not not necessarily affect your willingness to play the course but rather relate to its current value-for-ranking. A representative sampling of comments includes:
- ‘Surprising lack of variety off the tee -- angles, absolutely, but too many forced carries down tree “framed” corridors to blind fairways’
- ‘Excellent fairway bunkering but much of the challenge off the tees, often unremarked, consists of a forced carry to an LZ not defined by the bunkers but by tree-choked margins of hole’
- ‘Many shots are “defined” by hitting down tree-lined, alleys’
- ‘Green complexes can feel a little repetitive once the golfer is deep into his round. Bunkers on the flanks with raised greenside lips; greens proper lack internal contour’
- ‘Openings to greens too frequently defined by bunkers on either side’
- ‘Forced carries off tee plus bunker-choked green entrances result in loss of “dimensionality,” specifically high reliance upon aerial game’
- ‘Relative (note: relative to other English courses) reliance on aerial game knocks down the fun quotient a notch’
- ‘Not equally challenging and fun for all types of games / golfers’
- ‘Location, routing, and bracken forests lead me to suspect the course does not get as much action from the available wind as it could -- or perhaps there’s just not as much wind on offer as at other, unnamed inland courses’
- ‘Routing does not relate each hole to the larger whole (like that, guvnah?) -- more like an odyssey, not a bad routing at all, in fact a nice walk through a forest, but lacks the “puzzle-piece nesting” of trapezoid / polygon routing / property types’
- ‘Flattish, “point and click” greens’
- ‘Overly dependent on creating challenge from the tee end rather than from the green end as you prefer’
- ‘One does not feel a proper communion with the rest of the course’
Looks like a curate might have been sneaking off for a round, that last commenter! Sorry, right...
Clearly Hotchkin is a course of great quality; the above comments simply indicate it is not perfection, much less the third-best course in England, as this latest ranking would have us believe.
We share your belief that Hotchkin’s current ranking is unsustainable; however, until you our loyal customers tell us it has returned to its rightful, ranking value-appropriate position, we will continue to serve you via our outstanding rota of properly-ranked English courses.
We remind you Hotchkin continues to be available at Waitrose and other purveyors of overranked goods.
Thank you!
The Management
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Mark P,
You beat me to it with your comment on Silloth. The first thing I do when I look at one of these lists is to see how Silloth faired. I then judge the rest of the list based on that. On this basis I do wonder how accurate this one is.
Adrian - well done on making the list. For all my previous comments above its still an achievement to be proud of, congrats, and hope to be able to judge the course for myself some time in the future.
Niall
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Adrian
I presume you'd obviously be happy with TPC making the list - where do you think it should sit on same ?
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I am disappointed there is no room for Huntercombe, Stoneham, Prestbury, Camberley Heath, Harborne, Northamptonshire Co, Cavendish, Southfield and Coxmoor.
Putting my money where my mouth is:
Sherwood Forest, Forest of Arden, Blackwell, Belfry and St Mellion OUT.
Huntercombe, Northamptonshire Co (this one is an absolute no-brainer because its big and brawny - just what these folks look for), Cavendish, Camberley Heath and Stoneham IN.
More controversially; Hayling, Westward Ho!, S&A & Hillside (the most over-rated course I ahve ever come across) OUT
Prestbury, Harborne, Southfield and Coxmoor IN.
Ciao
Sean - what is the issue with Sherwood - from the photo tours I have seen and the reviews, it looks stunning - after playing Beau the other week this was near the top of my "want to play" list (the affordable one!)?
Paul
I like Sherwood Forest and would certainly go back. One issue I have is there isn't really a standout hole. In total the course is very solid, however, even if it belongs in the top 100 (which at that point doesn't mean much) I would not sacrifice any of the courses I mentioned for it.
Mark B
Your comments apply for Lytham as well. #4????
Ciao
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Another list, lost like some modern car ‘Sat Nav’ system among the golf courses of England. Ladies and Gentlemen you are more likely to end up in the North Sea than on the courses you have chosen.
Nevertheless, it kills off many minutes and hours of one’s life in the pointless pursuit of the perfect list – Presume it’s more fun for some than just playing the courses.
The impossible ever recurring dream that is in fact a bloody nightmare - I’m believe we have even gone to war for less. But enjoy the forever moans about such list which is far more repetitive that my moans on aids etc.
Melvyn
PS Should these lists not come with a Public Health Warning ;)
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Adrian
I presume you'd obviously be happy with TPC making the list - where do you think it should sit on same ?
Kevin - Sort of. In 2006 we were 113 in the main Golf World GB & Ireland list, in 2008 and 2010 they have listed courses 101-200 in no particular order, 113 GB&I equalled about 49 if you subtracted Wales, Scotland and the Irelands so I was dissapointed with the drop at first. Logically I can only see about 5 courses who I think should be lower than us and I can think of perhaps another dozen that should be infront of us. The more recent panels have downgraded most of the newer courses, Queenwood did not make the 100 and others like The Buckinghamshire have moved down like us, perhaps next year we will be OUT altogether. There seems an inclusion of quite a few courses that stage the regionals and local final qualyfying, there are still a few good uns not to make it IMO Enville, Whittington. Carden Park and Hanbury Manor did not make it and the inclusion of this sites faves; Beau Dessert and Wallasey are new additions to Golf World, those courses were always strange omissions from the 200 to me, rightly so they have made it. Bearwood Lakes was 101 in the GB&I at one time, I thought 66 in England was a bit low. I think the England 48 was equal to the GB & Ireland 100.
Ratings of courses are very very popular in selling magazines, they are also very popular on this site as we chat about them a lot and argue like cats and dogs. It all depends on your criteria for awarding the positives and if you not so worried about length, conditioning, scenery might appeal more or detract its all going to add up differently, you might like the fact everyone wears a red jacket or the ball washers are full of water.
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Curious to know if anyone else has played Carlisle and if so where they think it stands in relation to this list.
Niall
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Curious to know if anyone else has played Carlisle and if so where they think it stands in relation to this list.
Niall
I'm also interested, as Carlisle is a possibility for the "second" course for next year's BUDA. Unless we dispense with a second course and just play 3 days at the most under-rated course in the UK.
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Mark
I promise you that you will enjoy Carlisle. I think its a cracking course with loads of interesting and varied architecture. Its got probably the best short par 3, next to the Postage stamp, that I've played. On Mark R's thread on best by county, I note that he doesn't have it in his list of candidates. He lists Penrith, which is really nice course, but its not as good as Carlisle by some margin IMHO. What I will say, is that it is a little like a lot of the non-links courses in Scotland, in that you want to play it in the summer when its at its best. Otherwise the condition of the course takes the shine of the design.
Niall
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<<< ATTENTION K-MART SHOPPERS !!! ATTENTION K-MART SHOPPERS !!! >>>
Effective IMMEDIATELY and until further notice the England Section of our Fine Golf Courses Collection willl no longer stock Woodhall Spa (Hotchkin).
Recent placements of the course in Golf World and Golf Magazine rankings, you have told us, no longer represent the value-for-ranking you have come to depend upon from us.
Although we believe the course is very good and, as you, our loyal customers, will note, we do not put much stock (heh, we are a retailer) in rankings (they are not aimed at their customers or ours but directly or indirectly at their advertisers), nevertheless we believe the course is overranked to the point where our customers and their expectations may be affected.
Indeed, we have read carefully your comments placed in our BlueLight Comments Box. We understand these comment not not necessarily affect your willingness to play the course but rather relate to its current value-for-ranking. A representative sampling of comments includes:
- ‘Surprising lack of variety off the tee -- angles, absolutely, but too many forced carries down tree “framed” corridors to blind fairways’
- ‘Excellent fairway bunkering but much of the challenge off the tees, often unremarked, consists of a forced carry to an LZ not defined by the bunkers but by tree-choked margins of hole’
- ‘Many shots are “defined” by hitting down tree-lined, alleys’
- ‘Green complexes can feel a little repetitive once the golfer is deep into his round. Bunkers on the flanks with raised greenside lips; greens proper lack internal contour’
- ‘Openings to greens too frequently defined by bunkers on either side’
- ‘Forced carries off tee plus bunker-choked green entrances result in loss of “dimensionality,” specifically high reliance upon aerial game’
- ‘Relative (note: relative to other English courses) reliance on aerial game knocks down the fun quotient a notch’
- ‘Not equally challenging and fun for all types of games / golfers’
- ‘Location, routing, and bracken forests lead me to suspect the course does not get as much action from the available wind as it could -- or perhaps there’s just not as much wind on offer as at other, unnamed inland courses’
- ‘Routing does not relate each hole to the larger whole (like that, guvnah?) -- more like an odyssey, not a bad routing at all, in fact a nice walk through a forest, but lacks the “puzzle-piece nesting” of trapezoid / polygon routing / property types’
- ‘Flattish, “point and click” greens’
- ‘Overly dependent on creating challenge from the tee end rather than from the green end as you prefer’
- ‘One does not feel a proper communion with the rest of the course’
Looks like a curate might have been sneaking off for a round, that last commenter! Sorry, right...
Clearly Hotchkin is a course of great quality; the above comments simply indicate it is not perfection, much less the third-best course in England, as this latest ranking would have us believe.
We share your belief that Hotchkin’s current ranking is unsustainable; however, until you our loyal customers tell us it has returned to its rightful, ranking value-appropriate position, we will continue to serve you via our outstanding rota of properly-ranked English courses.
We remind you Hotchkin continues to be available at Waitrose and other purveyors of overranked goods.
Thank you!
The Management
Mark I wonder if The Management would care to say how many plays this is based on? I have always wondered if there’s more to it than I saw on one visit, because others who’s views normally have merit, rate it highly. IMO The Management are doing their job here.
Sean
First visit to Lytham this Thursday ; £150 (Plus a night in a hotel), no refunds, forecast is for rain.
I hope you are wrong!
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Hi Tony
Mgt has played the course thrice. I think it would be well regarded were it relocated to London; however, I bet it would drop from its current perch.
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I omitted Carlisle from my list through ignorance. Peter Alliss included it in his Good Golf Guide, describing it as, 'One of the finest parkland courses in the north of England.' If BUDA comes to the far NW a round at Brampton is worth considering - great fun.
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<<< ATTENTION K-MART SHOPPERS !!! ATTENTION K-MART SHOPPERS !!! >>>
Effective IMMEDIATELY and until further notice the England Section of our Fine Golf Courses Collection willl no longer stock Woodhall Spa (Hotchkin).
Recent placements of the course in Golf World and Golf Magazine rankings, you have told us, no longer represent the value-for-ranking you have come to depend upon from us.
Although we believe the course is very good and, as you, our loyal customers, will note, we do not put much stock (heh, we are a retailer) in rankings (they are not aimed at their customers or ours but directly or indirectly at their advertisers), nevertheless we believe the course is overranked to the point where our customers and their expectations may be affected.
Indeed, we have read carefully your comments placed in our BlueLight Comments Box. We understand these comment not not necessarily affect your willingness to play the course but rather relate to its current value-for-ranking. A representative sampling of comments includes:
- ‘Surprising lack of variety off the tee -- angles, absolutely, but too many forced carries down tree “framed” corridors to blind fairways’
- ‘Excellent fairway bunkering but much of the challenge off the tees, often unremarked, consists of a forced carry to an LZ not defined by the bunkers but by tree-choked margins of hole’
- ‘Many shots are “defined” by hitting down tree-lined, alleys’
- ‘Green complexes can feel a little repetitive once the golfer is deep into his round. Bunkers on the flanks with raised greenside lips; greens proper lack internal contour’
- ‘Openings to greens too frequently defined by bunkers on either side’
- ‘Forced carries off tee plus bunker-choked green entrances result in loss of “dimensionality,” specifically high reliance upon aerial game’
- ‘Relative (note: relative to other English courses) reliance on aerial game knocks down the fun quotient a notch’
- ‘Not equally challenging and fun for all types of games / golfers’
- ‘Location, routing, and bracken forests lead me to suspect the course does not get as much action from the available wind as it could -- or perhaps there’s just not as much wind on offer as at other, unnamed inland courses’
- ‘Routing does not relate each hole to the larger whole (like that, guvnah?) -- more like an odyssey, not a bad routing at all, in fact a nice walk through a forest, but lacks the “puzzle-piece nesting” of trapezoid / polygon routing / property types’
- ‘Flattish, “point and click” greens’
- ‘Overly dependent on creating challenge from the tee end rather than from the green end as you prefer’
- ‘One does not feel a proper communion with the rest of the course’
Looks like a curate might have been sneaking off for a round, that last commenter! Sorry, right...
Clearly Hotchkin is a course of great quality; the above comments simply indicate it is not perfection, much less the third-best course in England, as this latest ranking would have us believe.
We share your belief that Hotchkin’s current ranking is unsustainable; however, until you our loyal customers tell us it has returned to its rightful, ranking value-appropriate position, we will continue to serve you via our outstanding rota of properly-ranked English courses.
We remind you Hotchkin continues to be available at Waitrose and other purveyors of overranked goods.
Thank you!
The Management
Mark. i think that the management has it placed right where it needs to be...if it was in London it may even be higher as then people would realise it is indeed better thatn Sunningdale!!!
But we all have our own opinions, to me it is the fairest tough course I have played, love the bunkering, the demand on the tee shots being in the fairway and the premium placed on overall accuracy.
Would actually be my number2
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Michael,
Behind Ganton at No 1, presumably?
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First post in too long due to extenuating circumstances. Wentworth West at 9 is a joke, and it's not a funny one!
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I omitted Carlisle from my list through ignorance. Peter Alliss included it in his Good Golf Guide, describing it as, 'One of the finest parkland courses in the north of England.' If BUDA comes to the far NW a round at Brampton is worth considering - great fun.
Mark
Brampton is fun but not if you're playing it twice in one day. There's some serious climbs there. BTW, I would suggest Carlisle has more of a moorland/heathland feel to it when its dry and running.
Niall
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First post in too long due to extenuating circumstances. Wentworth West at 9 is a joke, and it's not a funny one!
You think it should be higher or lower Tom?
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First post in too long due to extenuating circumstances. Wentworth West at 9 is a joke, and it's not a funny one!
You think it should be higher or lower Tom?
Lower by a chunk! The East is lovely course and the Edinburgh has some lovely holes. I just don't see many great holes on the West. Haven't played since the latest changes but I like 9 (the run off on the new green looks nice as seen from the train), 10, 11 and 13. 1 is also good, but haven't got much love for the rest, particularly 5, 6 and 14-home. First time I played there I remember staring across the railway tracks and looking at an awesome piece of heathland - didn't realise that it was Sunningdale, well, almost. I can't believe how un-heathland Wentorth is when you see what surrounds it near the train - especially the big patch of heathland that borders 10 and I suspect, 12 and 13. Saying all that, it is still a very nice course in the scheme of things, but a long way shy of number 9 and £360 plus compulsory caddie - 1 round at Wentworth or 36 and lunch at Hankley, Woking, Blackmoor, Hindhead and probably some change. Hmmmm.