Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Bryan Izatt on June 08, 2011, 12:15:30 PM
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Does this hole embody the principles of a Bottle Hole? It is a very recent course. It is on a flat piece of ground and consequently it is difficult to gauge the location and distance of the bunkers and find a line off the tee. I assume that would be clarified by multiple plays.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/RSPBottleHole.jpg)
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Im not sure why you would want to play down the left?
Mark
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Comment #1:
The green is oriented to encourage shots from the wide portion of the fairway.
Comment #2:
The narrow portion of the fairway looks too narrow to attempt a play there.
Comment #3:
But if it isn't too narrow, then this works only if the green tilts from back right down.
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Bryan,
How long is the hole?
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funny this is mentioned. I work right next to a 'resort' course and view this uphill par 4 as I enter every morning. I was telling my buddy that it looks to be a solid hole and would place one bunker on the hole...which I then went on to say that one placed greenside would be nice, but essentially place emphasis on the drive's placement. Instead, I suggested a small bunker slightly off center in the fairway would be better as long as the slimmer side of the fairway was the preferred line into the green.
There is not only an unnecessary amount of bunkers on this hole, but it seems the comments from both John and Mark are spot on, without answering if this is a bottle hole or not.
I would not classify this as a Bottle, but more of a two option, almost multiple fairway type hole. It would be nice to know the orientation of the green complex, but I too see the same as the comments mentioned before; as well as the length of the hole.
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Im not sure why you would want to play down the left?
Mark
+1
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I agree. Without knowing the green slope, the left fairway certainly doesn't look like much of a temptation given it's narrowness and green orientation.
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Here's my best effort (still poor) at fixing the strategy of the hole even though I don't actually know how long it is. You can lay back off the tee down the left side but leave yourself with a poor angle in. The other options are to fly the center bunkers down the left side (a longer carry) to the widest portion of fairway that has an ok look at the green but is still better because you've got a shorter club in hand. The last option is to challenge the bunkers down the right, with the last bunker protecting the ideal line of play. The closer one can put it to that bunker, the better the look into the green.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-HIgBMyV0e7s/Te-yUtqsIfI/AAAAAAAAAOY/ZjVsDVEVb6U/s1600/kkjjlj.jpg)
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not too shabby, hasty Photoshop work and explanation to boot...
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Bryan,
The "Original", just roll the cursor over the holes to find #12.
http://wikimapia.org/4278681/12th-Hole-Sunningdale-Golf-Club-Old-Course
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Bryan, They bottleneck concept is pretty simple. The longer one hits it on the preferred line, the more accurate one must be. So arguably any golf hole which requires increased accuracy as the length of the shot is a "Bottle Hole." At NGLA there was also an option of carrying the ball out of the bottleneck, but that option left a less preferred line over a bunker.
Here is H.J. Whigham's 1909 description of the Bottleneck concept as it was originally intended at NGLA, along with an aerial of NGLA bottleneck and a diagram of the concept from the same Whigham article.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Golf%20Courses/Old%20Photos/Old%20National%20Pics/NGLA-Bottle-Whigham-Desc.jpg?t=1221584075)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Golf%20Courses/Old%20Photos/Old%20National%20Pics/NGLA-Bottle-Aerial-Sketch.jpg?t=1221585160)
The hole and the options have changes somewhat over the years.
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That's Stone Bridge isn't it? Number 1?
I think they call it a Bottle Hole if it is...good course, great practice for your short game.
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Bryan,
I suppose some could call it a "bottle" hole, but, it would seem to be the mongrelized version at best.
There appears to be no decision presented to the intelligent golfer and no risk reward for taking the more difficult path off the tee..
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It's a hole on a golf course. Call it whatever you want
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Bryan,
I suppose some could call it a "bottle" hole, but, it would seem to be the mongrelized version at best.
There appears to be no decision presented to the intelligent golfer and no risk reward for taking the more difficult path off the tee..
Patrick, take a look at the aerial posted in post #10 by David. From the aerial, and from I remember from my only two plays of NGLA's Bottle hole, there is no advantage to being on one side or another of the central bunkers. From either side, you must carry front bunkers up onto an elevated green. The challenge is keeping the tee shot in play as the fairway(s) narrow with length.
It seems to me that the hole shown has the same attributes even if not nearly as ancient or sexy. Thoughts?
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Bryan,
I suppose some could call it a "bottle" hole, but, it would seem to be the mongrelized version at best.
There appears to be no decision presented to the intelligent golfer and no risk reward for taking the more difficult path off the tee..
Patrick, take a look at the aerial posted in post #10 by David. From the aerial, and from I remember from my only two plays of NGLA's Bottle hole, there is no advantage to being on one side or another of the central bunkers.
Previously, I had to prove the advantage to TEPaul, now I have to prove it to you.
The right side of the fairway sits down, well below the left side.
In addition, the right side has far more slope in it, whereas the left side is relatively flat
Thus, the left side, the more difficult side to hit from the tee, provides a tactical advantage. (risk/reward}
The lower, sidehill, uphill slope, when combined with a prevaling wind in your face makes the approach shot more difficult from the riight side, and tends to push the ball to the right, which is death
From either side, you must carry front bunkers up onto an elevated green. The challenge is keeping the tee shot in play as the fairway(s) narrow with length.
It seems to me that the hole shown has the same attributes even if not nearly as ancient or sexy. Thoughts?
While I can't see the topo of the hole Bryan posted, the challenges look entirely different.
On Bryan's hole, tee shots hit to the wider right side are rewarded with a more benign approach into a green angled to accept balls from the right better than balls from the left
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Well, at least I feel honored to be mentioned along with Tom Paul. ;D
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Nice post David.
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The hole in question is from Rattlesnake Point Copperhead course near Toronto. Designed by Tom McBroom in 1999. From the three back tees it measures 443, 408 and 380 yards. The carry distances of the centre of the three bunkers are 330, 300 and 270 yards, so the left fairway is not really an option to carry. Laying up to the left of the bunkers, intentionally or not provides a more difficult angle into the green. The right fairway, which provides a better angle to the green does narrow the further down you try to drive it.
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Comment #1:
The green is oriented to encourage shots from the wide portion of the fairway. It is. But the wide area narrows down the further you try to drive it, hence my feeling that it has the prime characteristic of a bottle hole. My first impression of it was that it reminded me of the bottle hole at Old Mac, although the green is a whole lot more receptive than the one at Old Mac.
Comment #2:
The narrow portion of the fairway looks too narrow to attempt a play there. I agree, and it is out of the range of any golfer playing from the appropriate tees. In that respect, I think the left fairway seems to be a failure unless it is designed to attract the gullible.
Comment #3:
But if it isn't too narrow, then this works only if the green tilts from back right down. There's a semi bowl on the left side of the green, so I guess a bit of a sloe up to the back right. I'd love to hear your analysis of this hole when you are on the tee for the first time. I found it confusing. Perhaps that was intended in the design.
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Alex,
Tom McBroom is a well respected modern Canadian architect. Redesigning his holes for him is a little brash. ;D ;) Although, even you with your length couldn't use the left fairway on this hole.
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Jim,
Thanks for the Sunningdale original. Like many templates it looks very little like the CBM version to my eye.
David,
Thanks for the Whigham article and sketch. If the principle feature of the bottle hole is the narrowing of the preferred landing area, then this hole seems to qualify. Interesting that some of the features described in the article and the sketch don't match with the aerial. For instance, the sketch seems to suggest that the 260 bunker actually blocks the narrow opening.
Patrick,
"Mongrelized"? Didn't CBM espouse that variation on the principle theme were a good thing. I agree there is no apparent risk/reward for the more difficult left side. But it does have the requisite major principle of the narrowing of the fairway. It doesn't seem to have the nuances of the two fairways that you describe at NGLA. So, it's not a copy, but perhaps it's a template.
Bill,
What did you think of the Old Mac bottle hole? Was it close to the NGLA one?
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Alex,
Tom McBroom is a well respected modern Canadian architect. Redesigning his holes for him is a little brash. ;D ;) Although, even you with your length couldn't use the left fairway on this hole.
Haha. Could you describe the topography of the hole? Maybe there is some silver-lining to what he did? I'd like to think there's something I'm missing because, well, it's hard to see how those bunkers (and their mowlines) work in their current formation. Also what's the point of the pair of bunkers in the upper-left? I hope I'm not being prematurely critical... ::)
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Alex,
It is easy to criticize any hole. It all depends on perspective. Let's assume that you would play this hole from the back tees at 443 yards. The two bunkers left are over 260 yards. I suppose they'd punish you if you were trying to go up the left side and pull hooked it a bit. They are probably unnecessary, the first cut bluegrass rough is punitive enough. If you go left side it is about 300 yards to the left corner of the three middle bunkers. From there your approach has to carry the left greenside bunker. If you opted to play right, the shoret right bunkers require a carry of 260 yards. That might get in your head if the wind was against. the right fairway slopes a bit down towards the centre bunkers, so when the fairways are firm and fast you can get more rollout than you expect. If you pick right, then where are you going to aim. If you miss right the rough is, well, rough. If you tug it a bit left, you can easily run out into the bunkers. If you hit 3 wood and lay up to the bunkers, then you have a longer second shot. So, lots of options. And the primary feature of a bottle hole. I thought that would be popular on here.
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Jim,
Thanks for the Sunningdale original. Like many templates it looks very little like the CBM version to my eye.
As I understand it, CBM was much more concerned with the underlying concepts than he was the golf holes from which the concept came. I may me misremembering, but I think somewhere CBM or Whigham wrote that the inspiration for the Biarritz concept was not even a good golf hole, but that the concept was a good one.
David,
Thanks for the Whigham article and sketch. If the principle feature of the bottle hole is the narrowing of the preferred landing area, then this hole seems to qualify. Interesting that some of the features described in the article and the sketch don't match with the aerial. For instance, the sketch seems to suggest that the 260 bunker actually blocks the narrow opening.
I won't get into whether the aerial you posted matches anyone's idea of a "template" but it sure looks like it uses the underlying bottleneck concept. It might fit better with the concept if there bunkers or more identifiable trouble narrowing the fairway on the right, but perhaps bunkers are enough.
As for the Whigham article, I don't think it necessarily contradicts the diagram because in 1909 I don't think Whigham contemplated anyone driving it 260 into the last bunker. In other words, I think he viewed "the neck" as short of the last bunker.
Patrick's take on NGLA's bottle hole is interesting because it shows that the strategic balance of the hole may have evolved, at least for Patrick. The left carry was always a possibility and it was probably always preferred by some people, perhaps when it was conceived, the advantage of the higher ground might have been offset by longer second shot and the angle and the carry bunker, but it sounds like for him at least Patrick sees this as the preferred shot.
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Bryan,
A narrowed fairway doesn't a bottle hole make, and that fairway doesn't narrow until you're practically next to the green.
David,
What's interesting about the sketch is that it bears no resemblance to the play of the "bottle". Hole at NGLA
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Bottle (Langford):
(http://www.hotelmule.com/forum/attachments/month_0904/20090401_686e84e2f7d64703d916OjyObXM7s2EE.jpg)
Bottleneck(Ross):
(http://www.hotelmule.com/forum/attachments/month_0904/20090401_718cf6382e0c27d749a4esCXHuiiVTxb.jpg)
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At the risk of being vilified en vert, I think the Bottle hole at NGLA is an elaboration on the basic theme of the bottle concept, which is a fairway that narrows as you get closer to the green. Macdonald throws in the alternate fairway, risk/reward enhancement to this hole, but the basic Bottle concept is illustrated in Jim Kennedy's two drawings.
Bryan, I really didn't get the bottle feeling that much at Old Mac because driving the ball far enough to get "squeezed" is no longer an option! The sheer width and scale of Old Mac means there aren't any real bottlenecks. I thought the dominant feature of the hole was that cliff of a false front on the right half of the green.
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At the original at Sunningdale, Macdonald was interested in the "narrowing" of the second shot. He applied that feature into the tee shot at National, although they do not use his original tee any longer.
A simple explanation would be, the narrowing of a landing area which gives ample room for the short hitter but gets progressively more difficult for the longer players.
There can be many variations to this strategy, of course.
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Thanks to all for the comments. As usual there is no consensus, but that's just fine.
Bill, I get what you are saying about not being squeezed any more. I'm getting there too. Maybe we should have moved up a tee. ;) And, yes that was one !$@#$%@! of a green at OM.
I think you have a point about NGLA being an elaboration on the concept. George's simple explanation and variations to the strategy point I think support this.
And, "vilified en vert" - that's good. Thanks for the smile tonight.
Patrick, I'm sure that the NGLA Bottle Hole is a wonderful hole with many nuances, but it seems to go beyond the basic principle of a bottle hole as originated at Sunningdale. The squeezing there is on the second shot and thus near the green too.
So, for once you are wrong. ;D ;) There's no ducking emoticon, or I would use it.
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Technically, yes it is a bottle hole. It just has that whole left fairway thingy that is more maintenance than it is worth.
I like bottle holes. Pictured below are two interesting flavors (not back to back, the top is 13 and the bottom 17). The 13th is a driveable (300 yards) par 4 where the bottle "squeeze" is in the middle, forcing you to lay way back or go for it. The 17th is strikingly similar to the hole that is the topic of this thread, with some important tweaks. The left fairway is actually easier to hit (shorter carry, wider) but leaves a less attractive approach to the green.
Cheerio,
Matt
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj310/mjwaterbury/BRBottleHoles.jpg)
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The original main 8th tee at National was just to left of the Road hole green and from there you had the choice of two narrowing tee shots - straight in, not on a diagonal.
The hole was short, just around 380-something or another so it was decided to move the tee to its present location which produced the present diagonal to the left fairway. I’m not sure when it was done and whether it was Macdonald’s idea or not, but something had to be done. About the length of the hole - you certainly couldn’t go further back from the original tee or you’d kill someone on the 7th green,.
More problems about the length came up when long hitters were driving beyond the last of the split fairway hazards so they added the Principals Nose bunker beyond to counter the that problem.
In its true sense, it may have not what Macdonald originally wanted but, hey, look what it ended up - still a great hole and one, it seems, everyone likes a lot.
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Byran,
I'm certain that you're incorrect ;D
Perhaps, before rendering judgement you/we should examine all the "bottle" holes crafted by CBM-SR-CB.
Studying the entire body of work as it relates to the bottle concept would seem to be the more intelligent method by which to evaluate the elements necessary in order to categorize a hole as a bottle hole
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George,
Thanks for the additional insights on NGLA's Bottle Hole. If the original tee shot offered two alternative straight on narrowing fairways, that seems at odds with the 1909 sketch from Whigham that David earlier provided. Did the original hole, as built, ever approximate the Whigham sketch?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Golf%20Courses/Old%20Photos/Old%20National%20Pics/NGLA-Bottle-Aerial-Sketch.jpg?t=1221585160)
Patrick,
I'm sure I'm incorrect as usual too. ;D
Studying the body of work of CBM-SR-CB would, no doubt, give us a fuller understanding of the variations on a theme that they used over time. But, it would raise the question of whether the concept of CBM's bottle hole template should be the principle(s) that existed in CBM's mind when he built his first one, or should be based ex post facto on his whole body of work. If it is to be based on his whole body of work, then is it not our modern interpretation of all his variations on a theme of the basic principle?
It might be interesting to look at some additional CBM-SR-CB bottle holes. Care to suggest two or three that you think are close to their original layouts, and I'll post the aerials of them?
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Did the original hole, as built, ever approximate the Whigham sketch?
NO - not even close (I don't get where Whigham was going with that drawing)
most later versions of the Bottle hole by Charlie's "henchmen" were usually just a pinching on of a fairway landing area - not very exciting
actually, thinking abut it now, there really were not many VG Bottle holes based on the original concept
my book pictured the present 10th at Brendan Byrne in West Orange, NJ - the original West Course of Essex County CC - where the optional fairway was/is up on top, well above the wider fairway, and to play to it was pretty treacherous (narrow and at a pretty severe angle but the reward for playing there was that you were at an eye-level to green. To play to the "easier" fairway you had an easy tee shot but from that landing area the green was blind, way above you. That shot was/is not an easy one either.
I think that was one of the finest examples of a Bottle hole, esp with the green perched above you (picture the green as Cape-style green with a 30' fall off the the right and the rear
I'll see if I can post that diagram
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George,
That bottle hole at Francis Byrne is terrific!
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(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g85/ggb313/ecccwesthole10diagram.jpg)
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The bottle hole concept can vary like the variations in actual bottle shape. I keep thinking of the Absolute bottle adds. Hey, it is Friday! Must be time to investigate this bottle theory a little closer!
Matt, Nice pic of Black Rock. I might categorize 17 as a reverse bottle as compared to NGLA!
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Hi George,
Hope all is well.
I am curious where you got that information about the tee being left of the 7th green, and also when the change was made.
The I think the map on the back of the scorecard, printed in CBM's Report to the Members, signed Jan. 4, 1912, has the tee to the right of the green.
Thanks.
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David,
Could you post the map on the back of the 1912 scorecard.
George Bahto,
Since the highly touted results at ECE have become more widespread, have you been contacted about restoring ECW ?
Also, how much more work would you like to do at The Knoll ?
And could you identify it ?
Thanks
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George,
Looking at the pictures posted about the Ross Bottle and others where it is a straight hole with no alternate fairway, would you consider the 3rd hole at Essex County CC a version of the bottle hole?
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David,
Could you post the map on the back of the 1912 scorecard.
Here it is. Given the report was signed Jan 2. 1912, I think it more likely it was the scorecard for 1911.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Golf%20Courses/NGLA1911mapscorecard.png)
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David,
You'll note that the tee for # 12 is to the left of the 11th green, whereas, today, it's on the right of the 11th green.
It also shows the 16th tee to the left of the 15th green. Today, it's both left and right of the 15th green.
George Bahto,
In what year was the tee on # 12 shifted to the right ?
It would seem that the hole is an easier driving hole with that shift and that the 7th fairway is a llttle safer.
Was the tee used for # 12 also employed for # 8 ?
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Not to sidetrack the CBM discussion, but here's a good one from Devereux Emmet, mid '20s, at the Hob Nob Hill GC (NLE) in Salisbury, Ct.
He's got the player pinched twice.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4089/5200290334_56c78048b9_b.jpg)
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Thanks for posting that Jim. That is a neat hole. How long?
Not sure I'd segregate Emmet's courses from a discussion on CBM principles. I would think some of the same principles would show up on the courses of each given that they were buddies and Emmet played a role in NGLA, and they worked together on Women's National, I think.
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Here's a Bottle hole at Kinloch, posting for Lester George:
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d132/billmcb/th_Kinlochbottlehole.jpg)
This an aerial from above the green. The left fairway is 10' higher than the right, and yields a better angle. This is similar to the strategy at NGLA with the essential narrowing characteristic of the Sunningdale Bottle hole.
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d132/billmcb/th_Kinloch2300.jpg)
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David,
The yardage was ca. 360 overall; about 200 yards from the tee to the crossing road in the first fairway(on the right), and around 250 to the center of the second fairway(on the left).
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Jim -
The Emmet hole is fascinating. A sort of Double Bottle with all sorts of playing choices, even before you know anything about the fw contours. A reminder of how much Emmet is under appreciated.
Bob
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Bill McBride,
Kinloch's "bottle" hole looks pretty good.
Is there any elevation at the green ?
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Patrick wrote: George Bahto,
Since the highly touted results at ECE have become more widespread, have you been contacted about restoring ECW ?
Also, how much more work would you like to do at The Knoll ? I think they have already added a bit to the 2nd tee; new tee on#11, a bit of length on #14 (I think itz done); great new back tee on #15
some new tees have already been added as per my tee-plan and hopefully a few more will be added, like the back tees on #8 - #9 - #16 and #18
And could you identify it ? Pat, there is nothing more to do on the course itself, it is back to the original Banks design with no new architect's footprints added !!!
* * *
Essex County West (Francis Byrne) now belongs to the Essex County Park Commission along with Weequaic (sic) and Branch Brook. They finished a project of modernization and drainage repair at those courses. I was asked if I wanted to be involved but declined because they were not thinking about return the West course to what Banks built. The course "looks" nice but is not what it was meant to be. That course, if returned to exactly what was built, would stand as one of NJ's best. Too many alterations over the years, even by the home club when they owned it.
At his point, I would only want to work on meaningful restorations, or as with Old Macdonald, a new course.
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Alex asked:
George,
Looking at the pictures posted about the Ross Bottle and others where it is a straight hole with no alternate fairway, would you consider the 3rd hole at Essex County CC a version of the bottle hole
I think it now has a bottleneck feature in the landing area because of the way Gil and I pinched in the landing zone bunkering, yes, but I would fall a bit short of calling it a Bottle hole. Many, many landing zones are pinched in and they are not Bottle holes.
The third at Essex County CC is a bit short and it needed something in both the landing area to make the player think and when we deepened the left green greenside bunker and pulled it further to the left, I think we made it a much better hole. That bail-out area left greenside works well, much better after we enlarged it
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David, close examination of the original blueprint (not the scorecard map) of the course showed the tee for the bottle hole being left of 7 green. Note the short yardage for the Bottle hole on that early scorecard. Also, I think I have it someplace that they moved the 8th green a bit but it is not detailed.
The original blueprint also indicated the original 12th tee being to the LEFT of 11 green.
A few tees were altered as play at National got heavier over the years and players began hitting into groups coming down from parallel fairway
Then Macdonald found golfers hitting beyond his original hazard placements so tees were added, greens moved (17 & 14 and possibly 8), lines of play altered, hazards were added, in order to overcome these longer hitters.
I was at National yesterday and Bill Salinetti and his crews have the place looking and playing great.
The fairway expansion and approach area right of the first green adds a great deal to the hole - and a new look from the fairway as the front, right , greenside bunker looks like it is now IN the approach. Very cool.
Also Bill has expanded the short-cropped areas around the right and rear and a bit to the left of the 9th green, adding more interest if you miss the green in those areas. These areas were rough before and now you might want to chip or putt on to the 9th green from those areas.
some minor, thoughtful tweaks besides
gb
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Like a prior poster, I do not wish sidetrack the CBM discussion, but this thread made me recall a par 5 hole in urban SoFla. Its the 4th at International Links, a golf course adjacent to Miami Int'l Airport which was designed in the 1962 by Dick Wilson and Joe Lee, and redesigned in 1997 by Charles Mahannah. It always been a intriguing hole, giving you options off the tee, but subsequently pinching you to a smaller landing area on the next shot. Always a memorable hole. I would call it an elongated bottle hole.
(http://www.golfclubatlas.com/Users/dezman/Desktop/InternationalLinksMiami4.jpg)
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#5 @ Bandon is becoming less bottle like as the gorse has been removed to the right and left of the neck of the bottle.
Thanks
pre-gorse removal
(http://i1032.photobucket.com/albums/a403/thesmiledoctor/5.jpg)
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Bill McBride,
Kinloch's "bottle" hole looks pretty good.
Is there any elevation at the green ?
Patrick, I haven't played there yet - will in October in the Dixie Cup - so hopefully Lester George will see this and comment.
A close examination of the photo from the green end does make it appear to be elevated. The parallel mowing lines around the green make it appear to fall off both sides. There are also parallel lines across the front of the green, perpendicular to the line of play, that show the green sitting several feet above the end of the fairway. Depending on length, it's a very nice looking hole. I suspect it's a bit longer as the front is open for running approaches.
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d132/billmcb/th_Kinloch2300.jpg)
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BCrosby,
Here's a Google topo of the area. Emmet's Bottle hole would have been between (roughly) the green lines.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5103/5833936712_8ce1d3d64b_z.jpg)
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Bill,
Thanks for posting the 2nd at Kinloch. I'll get this picture thing figured out one day. Bad resolution really hurts the whole thing.
Pat,
As Bill said, the left fairway is higer than the right. It is level to slightly down (depending where you are on it to the green. From the left you can literally hit a bump and run into the front to middle portion of the green as there is a completely flat transition from fair to green.
From the right you obviously have a slightly uphill shot into the green over the the bunker. Depth perception is a little tricky. I I had sent a better phot you could see that there was little to no earth moved throughout most of the hole. The landform set up so well for this that I actually decided to do the split after we cleared and I saw how good it was. I suspected it was that good, but wanted to make sure.
Lester
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David, close examination of the original blueprint (not the scorecard map) of the course showed the tee for the bottle hole being left of 7 green. Note the short yardage for the Bottle hole on that early scorecard. Also, I think I have it someplace that they moved the 8th green a bit but it is not detailed.
Thanks George. I have seen a stick drawing from 1907 where the tee is well to the left, but the accompanying article reported that the 9th (then the 18th) would be the bottle hole, so I was wondering if that tee placement was before they decided to make the hole a bottle hole.
And thanks for the update on what has been ongoing at the course. When I was there years ago he was expanding he fairways and the close cut areas. Nice to hear the progress continues.
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Lester,
Thanks for the info, the hole looks pretty neat.
What are the carry distances for each set of mid-line bunkers.
George,
I'm scheduled to visit NGLA later this month and am always anxious to see what's in the works.
I still think that my suggestion for a tee left of # 12 green for # 13 and a tee back by the gate next to the 17th green for # 18 would be excellent additions, as would a back tee on # 7.
Since play for the Walker Cup will be very limited, has anyone suggested a back tee for # 12 back and to the left of # 11 green, making the carry over the diagonal bunker features a challenge (risk/reward)
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Pat - the back tee for the 7th (Road hole) is already in the works - it is(will be) way back on the hill of 14-fairway
I think Bill told me about a new tee for 18 also
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George,
I think those additions will be great in terms of bringing the intended architectural features back into play.
Don't tell TEPaul about the tees on # 7 and # 18 as his solution to the distance problem has been changing par from 5 to 4 on those holes, rather than moving the tees back.
This is why he has so much more to learn about GCA.
I think he liked replicating the approach shots on # 7 and # 11 at TOC at # 13 at NGLA.
Years ago I looked at the tee shot on # 12 from the left side of # 11 green.
I liked the diagonal hazard that the bunkers presented.
Not that different from the diagonal hazard on # 8.
I'll look at it again when I next visit.
The one thing that seems to make sense with that tee configuration on # 12 is the long catch bunker at the right flank of the fairway, well into the DZ near the downslope.
As it is now, there's no heroic carry required of any tee shot.
From the left of # 11, almost every tee shot would require the decision as to whether to be heroic and get a huge reward, or conservative and be left with a most difficult approach.
I might even play a ball from that general area, south of the road triangle and parallel with the front of the green, provided noone's coming up # 7. This is definitely a trial to be held after midnight ;D