Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: cary lichtenstein on May 02, 2003, 06:04:06 AM
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Starting a trip in Vail, Colo and finishing in Albuquerque, New Mexico. Below are the courses I have tentatively pencilled in. Should I cross out any? What are I missing?
Summit
Red Sky 2 courses
Redlands Mesa
Telluride GC
The Cliffs
Pinon Hills
Las Campanas 2 courses
Twin Warriors
Paa Ko Ridge
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I can recommend seeing the backnine at Riverview while you're in Farmington. It's in Kirtland and is the best linksy feeling you can get. Open windswept and fun. The nine consists of three par 3's three 4's and 3 five 5's. As for the frontnine, it is challenging but lacks much land movement and If you can ignore the refinery, it's beautiful. Other than that, Devil's thumb in Delta is suppose to be worthy but I can't personally report until after the 15th when I get back from Monticello's Hideout.
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If you don't visit The Hideout in Monticello, UT I will be forever hurt and will not send you any holiday gifts. (The Hideout is 2 hours north/east from Farmington.)
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No Aspen? If this is golf related, skip Telluride for Aspen and play Maroon Creek. If golf is not the focus, do not miss Telluride.
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quassi:
Skip Las Campanas -- it's OK Jack but nothing super special. As alternatives I would recommend the following in New Mexico:
Santa Ana (also just north of Albuquerque) *play the main two nines that are usually used for tournaments -- I believe it's the Tamaya and Cheenya nines.
Also, just opening up in Espanola is Black Mesa. I plan on playing the course in the next 10 days or so.
Durango is a fun town but the golf is really more r-e-s-o-r-t type stuff.
I second what Forrest said about The Hideout -- I intend on playing it when I head west.
Devil's Thumb in Delta is a also a worthy stop, but just keep in mind impeccable grooming is not the primary attribute when compared to Redlands Mesa.
I also agree with SPDB on Maroon Creek -- the holes across the road really juice up the experience. I really enjoyed this TF layout and it's got more juice than plenty of the mountain courses.
Hope this helps ...
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One more thing: Do NOT miss Goosenecks State Park just north of the Utah state line from Arizona/New Mexico — a few minutes off Hwy. 191 — Goosenecks is the most spectacular view you may ever see of an etched river. Plan on just 15 minutes...but it will be absolutely breathtaking.
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quassi,
I'd skip both Cliffs in Durango and Telluride. As Matt says they're resort courses and not too interesting IMO. Play Pinon Hills twice vs Durango.
Once prominent but now overshadowed by Paa-Ko in ABQ is University of New Mexico South. I really like UNM South (Red Lawrence), and if you're going to be flying out of ABQ it's 5 minutes from the airport.
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Quassi...
Don't listen to SPDB and Matt about Aspen. I lived there for many years and have played all the area tracks. Maroon Creek is exceptionally expensive and exceptional at nothing else! It represents a wonderful job of stuffing 18 holes into a hillside, but falls way short past its grooming and location. The membership is limited to those who have $$ and no taste, local real estate fortunes or felony convictions. Local lore will correctly tell you there is at least one fistfight a season between members. (See if you can time it right and get a ringside seat!)
My choices would be Aspen Glen or the Roaring Fork Club (Both vastly superior to Red Sky's pair). I would also take a look at the Breckinridge town course....from the tips, it is a wonderful test of everything you have in the bag.
I can help with Roaring Fork if you need it.
Steve
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BLACK MESA is not to be missed!
(http://www.foregolf.net/images/bm/600x400_14th.jpg)
(http://www.foregolf.net/images/bm/600x400_16th.jpg)
See the Pinon thread for a few other pictures.
Also by Ken Dye - Dalton Ranch Golf Club 1991 Durango, CO
(he designed Pinon and Paa-Ko)
Black Mesa was designed by his partner Baxter Spann.
Cheers
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Steve (aka the "slapper):
Puhleeeeeeze -- enough of Aspen Glen -- this is the standard fair for Nicklaus Design et al with all the usual over produced type golf. ::)
I do concur with you on Roaring Fork in Basalt and Breckenridge but I think a good 19th hole discussion would ensue regarding if they THAT MUCH better than MC.
I said I liked MC -- yes, it's certainly wedged in a few holes on the side of the mountain, but please tell me what holes are really bad -- save the start and conclusion which are on the clubhouse side of the road.
quassi -- Doug W is right on target with UNM / South but the issue there is always putting down too much H20 on the layout -- Paa Ko Ridge has had a bit of this too. Just realize that if both courses are indeed firm then you will experience some exceptional golf.
One last thing -- the last picture that Mike N posted is the 16th at Black Mesa -- I saw the hole when I visited the site last September and the hole is T-R-E-M-E-N-D-O-U-S! It's somewhat similar to the 15th at PV in that it becomes narrower the further you go. A superb routing by architect Baxter Spann to take a course from one location of the property and bring you back in fine fashion.
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Dear Matt "aka" Brutus:
Glad to hear about some agreement, but I respectfully disagree to even remotely agree. MC has a few holes worth something, but fewer worth any more than mention. Yes, all the holes on the ranch side, with the exception of #2 , are totally unnotable. Once across the highway, the initial par 3 (#5), the short but fun #6 , and #7 uphill 4 par stand out, but few others do more than offer a goat's workout. Only #15 really makes the cut for a par 5. #12 and 13 are okay holes, but very gimmicky. The remaining par 3's and fours are so weak. #'s 14/16/17 are absolutely bland and offer no redeeming shot value variety. They just follow each other and little else. #9 is perhaps the worst par 3 I've ever played. It is approximately 200-160yds (at 10,000 feet above sea level) with OB left and the progressive slant of a hillside that invariably drains left exactly onto or into the green. It is literally built to reward bad pushed or sliced shots. Many of the other holes do just the same job. Fazio has made it so weak golfers have an easy time finding their missed shots right in the middle of the fairway....Matt, you must like this feature for the other Nicklaus courses nearby don't ever allow the same.
I would grant you that nothing in the RF Valley will wildly excite anything but the aesthetic senses of a golfer, but JN has outdesigned TF by a high altitude 5 miles.
Matty my boy...I've got you here...I lived there, played all the places, often competitively, over 30 times each.
Now look out the door of your rental car and pick me up to catch a piece of Black Mesa...it looks awesome.
:-*
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Matt
You have made it rather obvious that you do not particularly like Nicklaus golf courses with your comments about Las Campanas and Aspen Glen. For my own edification, would you explain what your are referring to when you say AG is "standard JN fair with usual over produced type golf".
It is really hard for me to conceive that anyone would like MC over LC and/or AG. But, that is what makes life go around isn't it?
I'll be interested in your explanation. Thanks.
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Forrest, I just pulled up a map of the Four Corners area - wouldn't that be Monticello UT is two hours Northwest of Farmington? Unless there's some Bermuda Triangle stuff going on there in the Four Corners...........(eerie music here)!
8) Funny - I'd been thinking of that NM trip and didn't realize Monticello is only two hours. Loved the Golf Journal series and want to get to the Hideout.
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Yes, Bill. I stand corrected. It is north/west. Having driven it 30 times I must have always been looking east.
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Matty Boy,
PS...I've seen two Aces on MC's #9 in my time...both really bad irons that ran off the right hand slope....either shot would have been no better than a heroic up and down anywhere else.
I've also seen a 20hcp make eagle 2x on #8 with crappie, ugly but effective mishits that ran around the surrounding hills...great course architecture from such an acknowledged master..just missing a windmill and clowns-mouth!
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An hour from Vail in Leadville is the 'Highest Golf Course in North America', not a bad diversion and you can hit some unreal shots at that altitude. The Vail Valley doesn't have any bargains but if you're there I'd recommend Singletree which I think is Semi-Private. If you have the connections CC of the Rockies is my favorite Nicklaus course. Also the Vail Muni or the Course at Eagle Vail are fun. The course at Beaver Creek would be a good one to add to the "I walked it" list as you'd have to be part mountain goat. Can't vouch for the courses at Cordillera but I've heard some good reports.
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My experience in Colorado is unfortunately limited, so I have little basis for comparision, but I agree with Slapper...the Nicklaus course at Breckenridge is really enjoyable. Scenic, interesting, varied, playable, and strategic, I would play it again in a heartbeat.
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I thought the highest course was Cloudcroft in New Mexico...9,000 ft. I believe....?
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Here's another vote for Santa Ana, outside of Albuquerque.
TimT
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Forrest
I'm not sure which course is considered the highest, but The Summit Course at Cordillera's 18th tee/fairway is at 9040. The lowest point on the course is at 8640.
See ya next week!
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JWL:
Let me say at the outset that I rate courses irrespective of who the designer is and I believe my assessments of courses follow a pragmatic position -- in sum -- there's no absolute right or wrong in my book -- I judge them on their individual merits and don't get sucked into the fancy pictures many of these high profile real estate developments put forward through their well designed collateral matreials. Some here on GCA follow the idea that if person "X" designs the course then ipso facto it must be something special. I don't do that, or at the minimum, don't do it consciously.
I do like plenty of Jack's works and for a time I was a big fan of Geronimo at Desert Mountain until Lyle Anderson saw fit to change the 13th and 14th holes. ???
I have played Aspen Glen and Las Campanas and both are heavily shaped. They are layouts where man's hand is clearly seen. In some of the holes at both courses you find the standard mounding and shaping so that all the holes have the GQ or Vanity Fair model look. There is little for the golfer to "guess" about because everything is layed out in the same manner that food is served at your basic cafeteria -- just walk through the line and go from there.
I don't doubt the locale "adds" the experience because when yo look at Mt. Sopris in the background at AG and you have such striking features from the terrain off-site at Las Campanas but it's the desire to run roughshod over the property and impose the carpeted "been there" -- "done that" look that turned me off.
Please don't misunderstand me I believe both facilities do present a fair test of golf and there are quite a few holes that can be demanding when the tees and pins are placed accordingly. But, in the final analysis -- it's the overdone grandiose style that provides little mystery to add to the expectation of future rounds.
Now, let me mention among some of Jack's recent designs I thoroughly enjoyed Old Works in Anaconda, MT (arguably the best value course anyone can play given what many Jack courses cost to play) and I believe the Chirichua Course at Desert Mountain is a bonafide candidate for top five consideration in the Grand Canyon State. I also believe Great Bear in Marshalls Creek, PA is one of the top 4-5 public courses in all of the Keystone State and is so grossly undervalued by the major publications. There are others I could also mention but my fingers are tiring.
Let me once again clarify my comments about MC. I didn't put the course up on a pedestal and make it out to be the secomd coming of Moses! ;D
I will defer to the comments of Slapper and yourself since you've probably played them more times than I have (I played MC twice and I've played AG and LC -- both 18's just once).
I liked what TF did with the property -- BUT I ALSO MENTIONED THAT THE HOLES ON THE ROAD CLOSEST TO THE CLUBHOUSE WERE SIMPLY MAILED IN AND UNINSPIRING. Somehow I think people just take out one or two sentences and then begin to assert that Ward said this when one needs to look at the totality of what was realy said. I hope this helps.
P.S. For what it's worth I also like Haymaker in Steamboat Springs. A fine Keith Foster design that gets little attention but that goes beyond the immediate geography area that is a part of this thread.
One last thing -- glad to see someone else mention Santa Ana -- the two 9-hole layouts I mentioned (Tamaya & Cheenya) are very good as many people will automaticaly head over to Twin Warrior.
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Matt
You have explained that you think that AG and LC are over shaped with the standard mounding. You stated that you do not base your opinion of a course on who the architect might be. However, you seem to have a preconceived opinion of Nicklaus designs because you have in your mind that AG and LC are "standard fair of over produced type golf." This indicates to me that you have a predetermined what a Nicklaus design looks and plays like.
I also don't really understand what you are referring to when
you say Nicklaus ran "roughshod" over the site with standard mounding and shaping.
You couldn't be more wrong in your assessment. But, there clearly isn't enough room on this board or time to point out hole by hole how/why you are mistaken.
If you don't like the courses, that is certainly OK with me. I just want to clarify for any others that may be reading this thread, that I do not agree that your descriptions and assessments of these two fine courses are accurate. I am referring to the Sunrise course at LC, since I haven't seen the Sunset course grassed.
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Mount Massive Golf Course (public)
259 County Rd 5
Leadville, CO 80461
(719)486-2176, fax (719)486-1536
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This facility claims that its course was built at the highest elevation in North America, 10,000 feet about sea level. The course was built at the bases of Mt. Elbert, Colorado's highest mountain, and Mt. Massive, Colorado's second highest mountain. It was built in an extremely scenic valley that is home to an abundance of wildlife, such as prairie dogs, elk, and deer. The natural rough, a combination of sagebrush and wildflowers, is very fragile at this altitude, so carts are not permitted in the rough. There is an additional set of tees that can be used when playing an eighteen hole round.
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Quassi,
You're on the right track with your original courses as modified by the first few suggestions, so...
--Fugeddaboud any courses in and around Vail till you get to Cordillera to the west in Edwards. There are no really golfworthy courses around Vail especially for the $$$, including Beaver Creek, Vail Muny (intensely boring) and Eagle Vail (a true goat track). Singletree (now Sonnenalp) is OK but missable vs the others on your list.
--Breckenridge is my favourite Colorado mountain course but if you're starting in Vail and heading west it's going the wrong way. Breck is 40 minutes east of Vail. Same for Haymaker in Steamboat. A very good course but way outta da way to the northwest.
--Mt. Massive in Leadville? No way, unless you're there to hike some 14ers and heading over Independence Pass to Aspen...
If you want more detail send me a message.
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Jwl- I have golfed the Sunset course at LC and felt it was like a symphony. Climaxing with the ultimate in all water carrys. I found the course to be long and an arduous walk. The front nine starts with all the openness needed for all levels of golfer, but then (around the fifth hole) the par 5 that zigs and zags, found me scratching my head. Maybe cause I played the hole poorly, but even so, there seemed to be few options for recovery from the left side. The following tee is way up the hill and the slight jog back towards play seemed odd.
The backnine's differences become immediatly apparent, especially at the green. I felt the green shapes became more interesting on the back and the use of the natural wash was truely inspired. The par 3's were all strong and there was enough variety to make it interesting. A solid golf course where if you were forced to play there everyday, you wouldn't be disappointed.
I would be interested in your recollection of any of the aspects that I noticed plus if you could add any of your own, some of us dilatante's have inquiring minds. ;D
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JWL:
To be clear -- I do like plenty of Jack's courses -- you have a different opinon and that's fine. I'm just curious -- are you member at either of the facilities?
I don't have a "pre-conceived" idea of Golden Bear designs because if you bothered to read what I said I highlighted a number of courses Jack has done that are very good and in many ways vastly underrated. The Chirichua Course at Desert Mountain is one of my personal favorites in all of Arizona and unfortunately gets little attention -- ditto the highly successful efforts Jack achieved with the difficult site at Old Works in Anaconda, MT. One of the best bargains you can have in playing a Jack design in the nation.
I fully understand how Jack has "evolved" in his thinking regarding what "works" and doesn't work for the average player because, as you may know, many of his earlier designs were thought to be too tough (i.e. The Geronimo at Desert Mountain is one example) although I think many people who made these comments had the misfortune of playing these layouts from the wrong tee boxes.
JWL, I don't have a "pre-determined" viewpoint on any course. I play the course in question and go from there -- simple as that. I don't hold what an architect did previously either for or against him. I judge the work for what it is -- period! When I say roughshod I believe that the folks who built Sunrise when the extra mile in building containment mounding on a few holes and the course seems more transported from another locale than actually fitting into the native New Mexico location. Again -- my opinion.
Let me ask you this -- do you believe the Sunrise Course is superior to Paa Ko Ridge in New Mexico? To the Tamaya and Cheenya Nines at Santa Ana? To Pinon Hills? To Twin Warrior? To UNM / Championship? I don't doubt the course is good, however, the competition in the Land of Enchantment is quite good at the top and you now have coming on line Black Mesa near Santa Fe. Are you suggesting Sunrise is the best course in NM? Please also tell me where you see Aspen Glen in the entire state of Colorado?
JWL: You have a different take on these two particular Jack designs -- so be it. But rest assured I do enjoy a number of Jack's designs and I believe some of his newest efforts are an evolution of where he started in the design business a number of years ago. I don't have any "bias" towards what Jack or other designers do and I believe my comments on GCA reflects that whenever I weigh in on the merits (lack thereof) of any course. Nothing more -- nothing less. ;)
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Matt
I thought I heard or read somewhere that JWL is an employee of Jack's group. Just trying to help.
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Matt Ward:
JWL is Jim Lipe, who has been Jack Nicklaus' senior design associate since the early 1990s and was the lead designer on such courses as Cabo del Sol, Mayacama, Castle Pines, among others.
Though I played on my high school baseball team, I'd probably be a little more deferential and listen more than I talked when discussing the game with, say, Greg Maddox. He's a player, I'm not. ;)
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pacgd:
Appreciate the put down. ;D
It would be most helpful if someone who actually works for an architect publicly discloses his connection to same. Clearly, the issue of partiality becomes a matter of debate and has to be placed in sort of context.
I've stated my opinions -- no less than others -- and backed up my conclusions on a wide range of Nicklaus courses by being fair, at least I think so, in all of the comments I've made.
pacgd, remember learning is a two way street even for those of us who sit in the "cheap seats." ;)
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Never ceases to amaze me!
JWL has a vested interest, he works for Jack.
Matt Ward is paid to critique golf courses.
We are all subjective human beings. Just because you build golf courses does not mean your word is fact. Just because you critique courses does not mean your word is fact. Matt doesn't like what JWL likes (thank goodness). JWL may not like what Matt does (thank goodness). I think what is important about all this is that people are giving explanations and reasoning behind their positions. This is the point of GCA.com. FRANK DISCUSSION
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mdugger -- You seem to mesh "build" with "design" when you meant "design". I suppose the two acts can be interchanged in certain instances, but you really meant "design" didn't you? I mean, this is what architects do — they design. And we occasionally jump in and carry out our designs by jumping on eqipment, etc. — And, there are talents such as Gil Hanse who does both design and building. But mostly, "Builders" "build".
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Forrest
Yes, design does carry more relevance in this instance.
My bad. :)
In my own fantasy world every designer builds his own.
I wish it was true.
I can understand why it would be a little silly to get up in arms about a golf course that you built if you had ZERO say in the design. I meant to say design.
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Matt
I appreciate your position on critiquiing golf courses, and I applaud you on not having preconceived ideas of what a course is or isn't based on a prior opinion of a designer.
I must admit, however, that you threw me with your comments with wording like "standard, over shaped/produced mounding", etc. It seemed like you were describing a preconceived idea of what standard Nicklaus design was, and that those courses met that description to you. I stand corrected.
My posts are always to set the record straight, as I see it, regarding any course that I know intimately. I never attempt to make any comparison or declare one course better than another, because, like you, I believe beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
I am glad that there a several Nicklaus designs that you enjoy. One of them, Anaconda, however, has considerably more shaping and is on land that has been run "roughshod" over much more than AG or LC.
Regarding the other courses you mentioned in NM, I unfortuately have not played any of them. I have seen pictures, and some of them look quite appealing. I, by no means, have inferred that LC or AG are better or worse than any that you have mentioned, except in the beginning thread on MC.
As for mdugger's comments about my not liking what you like, and vice versa, I think he/you might be surprised as to how much agreement we actually have.
As for my identifying myself, I didn't think it appropriate, since I have posted here previously, but I also had no intention of misleading anyone. I just enjoy the discussion, I defend my work when I feel it needs/deserves it, and although I have been a designer for 33 years and in my 20th year as Jack's senior design associate, I never feel like I am to old to learn. Although I am pretty old.
Thanks for you input.
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JWL,
Can you give us the lowdown on Pronghorn? How is it coming along?
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mdugger
Sorry, but that is not one of my projects. Therefore, I am out of the loop on its status.
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JWL:
Appreciate your post. I would urge you to play / see some of the courses I mentioned in New Mexico -- in fact, I'm in the state now and will be visiting Black Mesa in a few days.
Let me also clarify about the notion of overshaping -- at the site in Anaconda I can go along with it given the nature of what the site was and what was needed to be done in order to comply with EPA guidelines. Jack and his team did a first rate job -- in fact, I think the course is one of his very best because of the end result AND the fact that the public can enjoy it at such a modest cost.
I also credit Jack for being the major player in opening up the Southwest area of the country for more and more top courses. Yes, Red Lawrence deserves high marks for Desert Forest but it was Jack that caused more heads to turn with Desert Highlands and obviously others have followed.
However, I don't see the level of detail / shotmaking requirements at Las Campanas (Sunrise) -- have not played Sunset. Ditto with Aspen Glen. Yes, they have their share of good holes but in the final analysis, for me anyway, they lack the pizzazz and staying power (memorability) that I believe a course should have.
P.S. One last thing -- was it Jack's idea or Lyle Anderson's to change the 13th and 14th holes at Geronimo at Desert Mountain? I loved both of the former holes and the greensite at the 14th was one of the Bear's best. Be interested if you can comment. Thanks!
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Quassi:
I lived in Durango in the late 80's and have lived in Denver ever since, so I familiar with the area and some of these courses.
My two cents worth:
I can't talk about the courses in the Vail Valley or Aspen area because I can't afford the green fees. I did play the Aspen town course once and thought it was medicore at best.
One of the most respected courses in the Colorado Front Range mountains is the old course at Keystone. I think it is a Trent Jones course, I have seen it and it looks great. There is a second course at Keystone (The River Course?) that I know nothing about.
Battlement Mesa in Parachute, just off I-70 a bit east of Grand Junction is worth a visit.
Rifle Creek in Rifle, a bit east of Battlement Mesa. I have not played it, but lots of people rave about it.
Redlands Mesa is a must play.
Devil's Thumb in Delta is excellent. As someone else mentioned, the conditioning could be better, but it is a new course.
Telluride - cost $135 on a weekday in 1999. Not worth it. A few good holes, but a quirky routing. Strange broad bladed high altitude grass gave funky lies on the fairways.
Fairway Pines outside of Ridgeway (between Delta and Ouray) is worth a visit. It is up on a mesa and has incredible views of the San Juan Mountains. It will cost less than half of Telluride and although it has a few funky holes it is a better golf course.
If you like mountain views, be sure to drive Hwy 550 from Ouray, through Silverton, and on to Durango. It is called the "San Juan Skyway" and crosses 3 passes above 10,000 feet.
The Cliffs: Only played it a couple times, always early season. Some very tight holes, some very blind shots, quite a few elevation changes. Scenic place, but not the high mountain views at other Colorado courses.
Hillcrest is the town course in Durango is not a must play but is a great value and always in great condition, especially the smooth and fast greens. Durango is a great resort town, laid back, casual, a bunch of good restaruants - and very affordable compared to the well know Colorado resorts such as Vail and Aspen.
The GCA New Mexico contingent has already addressed their courses.
Remember you are coming to the high country so watch out for the altitude. Drink LOTS of water, use plenty of sunscreen, easy on the booze. It will take your body a couple of days to adjust so take it easy at the beginning, especially if you fly to Denver and head right to Keystone or Vail, they are both around 9000 feet!
Have fun and spend lots of money, we like visitors here in Colorado!
Bill