Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Kyle Henderson on April 11, 2011, 03:46:04 PM
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Barnbougle Lost Farm sits on property of a markedly disparate character to its sister course, Barnbougle Dunes, even though the two are separated by little more than a river crossing along the shore of Anderson Bay (seen through the tunnel adjacent to Lost Farm’s 18th green)
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5182/5599378413_066dc0fa4b_z.jpg)
Lost Farm also deviates from its sibling in having much wider and often flatter fairways, 20 holes (!!!) and a restaurant that sits 100 feet above the sea.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5301/5608579563_615fe3ee59_z.jpg)
1st Hole, 467 meters, par 5
The opening tee shot offers a wide swath of fairway to encourage confident swings, but those willing to challenge the left bunker can bring the green within reach.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5225/5599960952_8135d97979_z.jpg)
Par is still attainable for those that find the bunker, but birdies are unlikely.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5187/5599378749_61977265d7_z.jpg)
Second shots that cannot reach the green will do well to travel far and left past the bunker in the foreground, leaving a simple approach.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5066/5599961332_9d36fb34cf_z.jpg)
This back/right hole location is well protected. Good luck stopping a shot near the pin from the greenside bunker.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5106/5599961570_a6462be2f8_z.jpg)
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Kyle:
Your photos of the first hole don't do justice to how difficult the tee shot feels into a strong prevailing wind, nor to the size of the green -- which is very small. As an opening hole, I liked this one very much. Into the wind, it gives you plenty of room to fidn your ball and hit it again, and downwind, getting on in two would never be easy because of the size of the green and the right front bunker which guards it.
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It was quite calm on the day I played Lost Farm, but your description sounds plausible.
I'm not really sure how I would go about taking photos that do justice to the influences of wind, especially given that I was shooting in broad day light between playing shots in a competitive match. Flat holes such as this tend to come across as being rather bland in photos, since it is so hard to offer perspective -- by the time I was close enough to shoot the contours of the green, I was too close to capture its shape.
I promise you the pics will get more interesting at the 3rd, even sans wind dipictions.
It is interesting to note that Friar's Head features similar potato farm terrain adjacent to seaside dunes, yet the holes here seem distinct, despite the similarities in shaping. I should also note that Friar's Head is even more difficult to photograph, as it is against club policy.
Kyle:
Your photos of the first hole don't do justice to how difficult the tee shot feels into a strong prevailing wind, nor to the size of the green -- which is very small. As an opening hole, I liked this one very much. Into the wind, it gives you plenty of room to fidn your ball and hit it again, and downwind, getting on in two would never be easy because of the size of the green and the right front bunker which guards it.
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I think I've said this before, but I notice how C&C will let you work into the round. That's not to say the 1st and/or 2nd holes will be pushovers. They just don't seem to beat you up out of the gate should you screw up.
No different here at Lost Farm. There's an opportunity to play your way into the round it seems and that's appreciated from my standpoint. Especially if there's no range time to warm up.
One thing I noticed at LF on the 1st is it's a fine line between the aggressive vs. the conservative line off the tee. By aggressive / conservative, I don't mean to the extreme end of the spectrum here. Drove comfortably the 1st round to only find my ball run through to the fairway bunker on the right. The recovery was pretty straightforward and you can still score as Kyle mentions. The 2nd round I took a slightly more aggressive line towards the left fairway bunker and barely cleared it. The same kind of thing happens on the 5th for the margin between aggressive / conservative. Did anyone feel this way?
Agreed we probably didn't experience this to the fullest with nay wind. Same happens on the 16th I'll guess.
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Guys, the elevated tee and wide fairway make for a less than stressful beginning. LF was a very pleasant walk and this hole sets the tone for the day.
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I really liked this hole.
The ground had some nice contour, the tee shot worked well for a first shot of the round, the bunkers were all perfectly placed in a way that made the angles work really well, and the green sat nicely.
the best of the holes on the 'flat land' IMO.
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I agree with David - this is a very good hole particularly as an opener. Fantastic placement of bunkers.
On my second round I landed in the front left fairway trap and still could hit an easy 5I out of it. The size and lack of depth in the green is also a real plus for mine.
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Kyle, straight back into it mate - admire your commitment - well done.
Again, I agree that is a charming opening hole, not too long, plenty of width, best line to the access the green is from the furthest left sides of the fairway - my favorite part of this hole ( with similar type shot on 10) was the opportunity to hit an agressive approach shot for 2 or perhaps 3 into the wind, down the left of the green even past pin high without fear of penalty and taking the deep green side bunker out of the equation.
I also liked the long black tee in front of the new clubhouse - just to confirm - the building at the top of the dune is the restuarant, the building at the back of hole 20 will be the clubhouse, retail, bar, casual food.
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At 309 meters from the tips, the 2nd hole is a very short, wide par 4. The direct route to the green is down the very left edge of the fairway (the flag seen above on the right is for the17th hole).
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5107/5611807637_705697e30d_z.jpg)
With the prevailing wind coming in from the left, bold players can aim over the port-side marram grasses and let the air current bring their ball back into play. The conservative play is further right.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5029/5612390990_71615ca963_z.jpg)
Viewed from the right/center fairway, these two central fairway bunkers must be factored into one’s choice of line when playing conservatively.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5230/5612391128_825e107119_z.jpg)
As seen from short and right, the 2nd green is defended by a bunker to starboard, giving an advantage to those able to keep their tee shots left.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5027/5612391286_aa1ffc382d_z.jpg)
This vantage point is from the 17th green, looking across the 3rd tee to the 2nd green.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5149/5612391412_1aed810b9c_z.jpg)
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On this 2nd, straight down the middle seemed to work pretty well.
The approach is kind of cool. Big green, but somewhat shallow. You don't really want to go long here. You can definitely go wide.
Luckily I did not end up to the left of the green, but that area appears to have some fun recovery shots. There's a slight break / swale between this left area and the green that could steer your ball either way if you're not too careful on your approach. I almost wish that left side could be used as a divided green option, but I think it makes the conservative shot off the tee to the right too appealing perhaps and too easy?
Anyway, those with the long ball can give it a go I'd think if there's no prevailing wind as the ball should run right on.
After this hole, you feel ready for what lies ahead.
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To me this hole is all about strategy based on the day's pin. The green is essentially three conjoined areas from side to side, with the lower left side being separated from the middle by a small ridge. There is a hill that runs from the back of the green that serves to separate the right and the middle. With a left pin, the play is definitely to the left (shortening the hole and taking the ridge out of play), and a drive to the right sets you up nicely for a right pin (although a shot from the left to a back right pin leaves a good angle to play down the width of the green). When the pin is in the middle, its pick your poison, either challenge the fairway bunkers for a shorter shot in or play to either side or short of the bunkers to ensure a a shot from the fairway. With the wind predominantly into your face, the narrow run down the left is particularly daunting, although it takes a big tee ball to reach the second of the two fairway bunkers which is in direct line to the left side of the green.
I really liked this hole. For a flat setting there was a ton going on.
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To me this hole is all about strategy based on the day's pin. The green is essentially three conjoined areas from side to side, with the lower left side being separated from the middle by a small ridge. There is a hill that runs from the back of the green that serves to separate the right and the middle. With a left pin, the play is definitely to the left (shortening the hole and taking the ridge out of play), and a drive to the right sets you up nicely for a right pin (although a shot from the left to a back right pin leaves a good angle to play down the width of the green). When the pin is in the middle, its pick your poison, either challenge the fairway bunkers for a shorter shot in or play to either side or short of the bunkers to ensure a a shot from the fairway. With the wind predominantly into your face, the narrow run down the left is particularly daunting, although it takes a big tee ball to reach the second of the two fairway bunkers is in direct line to the left side of the green.
I really liked this hole. For a flat setting there was a ton going on.
Sven has it sorted pretty well.
Terry and I played after Boomerang to a left hand pin, and coming from centre or right was difficult to get near the pin (the ridge made a downhill slope that had to be traversed), whereas left was easier and allowed some use of the ridge to your advantadge if you were a little right.
The ridge is a subtle penalty, not severe, which is perhaps in keeping with the second hole on a resort course.
When I played in November into a strong westerly, it was quite a fearsome hole. At the Boomerang, the weather was more benign, and so the hole can look quite easy.
James B
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I thought the second green was fascinating ... it reminded me instantly of some of the greens on The Old Course at St. Andrews, like it was just sitting on the ground that way the whole time. I asked Bill Coore what he had done there to shape the green, and he said it was pretty much like that all along, that they really didn't shape it much at all.
I don't think anyone would identify it as one of the best holes on the course, but it is neat to encounter a hole like it, and it certainly adds variety to the course.
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Tom D:
I thought the second green was fascinating ... it reminded me instantly of some of the greens on The Old Course at St. Andrews
Likewise. It struck me a week or two after playing BLF that it was more like The Old Course than any other links I have played and the second green was such a big part of that.
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Scott:
I really didn't think the rest of the course was much like St. Andrews at all ... but then again, people have made the same comparisons between Old Macdonald and The Old Course, and I really don't see that, either. All three of them are wide and a lot of the green fronts are open, but neither Lost Farm nor Old Macdonald really give you scope for the running approach on half as many holes as St. Andrews does.
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my innitial impression of the second hole is that it is a bit of a dumb blonde.
I like the hole, the green is cool, and the bunkers are in such great position with the tee shot. For a flat site it looks like a really cool hole.
But I don't think it all works together well enough to bamboozle a player the way it should. Whilst the tee shot looks like it has options, I really can't see any advatnage in taking one more than the other,. Even the time I put it in the bunker, it was a pretty easy wedge to the green. It would be really hard to find a position in the (left) bunker where the green couldnt be easily hit. Maybe with the pin on the left side of the green, there is an advantage in going left off the tee, but otherwise just blast away, wedge in and away you go.
Maybe a bit more wind would make the approach harder but this would be balanced by making the drive easier.
I reserve final judgement until I have played it a few more times with different winds and pin positions but at the moment I reckon it is a hole that the archie buffs will love the first few times around but tire of over time.
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Even the time I put it in the bunker, it was a pretty easy wedge to the green. It would be really hard to find a position in the (left) bunker where the green couldnt be easily hit. Maybe with the pin on the left side of the green, there is an advantage in going left off the tee, but otherwise just blast away, wedge in and away you go.
It's a nice hole, but it feels like it should be 40 or 50 yards longer. Maybe that way the shallowness of the green and the ridge within it would exert more influence.
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I really like the first hole, I think is is as good a first hole as you will find because it is a perfect "introduction" to the round you are about to play. I first played this Thursday afternoon (the day Kyle spent in the airport :) ) in a 3-4 club wind. And while the wind eventually beat me down that day, in retrospect (time heals all wounds...), I think this was a great way to play my introductory round at Lost Farm because you can see that Bill Coore gave the player great width for just such days. It is almost as if the architect is saying: " I know, I know, the wind can be brutal, but look at how much room I am giving you to work width! Play smart conservative golf and you'll get around the course just fine."
Although the wind is in your face on the first hole, being a slight dogleg you really have about 100 yards of width to work with. Only an over aggressive line with a hook will get you in trouble. I hit really good drives and perfectly positioned 5 woods on all three rounds here, and made only one par. That is because I left myself with half with 3 half wedges off tight lies to a small, hard, and fast green. So here too the architect is saying: "Even though you've hit good full shots, you better be able to control the roll of your ball today if you expect to score well on this course." On a typical parkland course, I would have sand wedge in hand and fired at the pin, expecting at least one or two birdies and never worse than par. But when my first wedge hit near the (front) pin and rolled to the back of the green, I was quickly reminded that this is links golf. So the next two times I resorted to bump and run shots, leaving one short and the other rolled past the hole and off the green. Welcome to Lost Farm.
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I agreed with Bill. The other I like about 1 is that it gives you plenty of room to play left on the second shot if you don't think you can go direct at the green, but position becomes all important. The green slopes from left to right so the golfer must make a decision whether to try to play close to the green, or play wide left and short, or wide left and long. Pin position and the wind on the day will dictate where you want to hit to with your second and what type of shot (air or ground) you play for your third.
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my innitial impression of the second hole is that it is a bit of a dumb blonde.
I like the hole, the green is cool, and the bunkers are in such great position with the tee shot. For a flat site it looks like a really cool hole.
But I don't think it all works together well enough to bamboozle a player the way it should. Whilst the tee shot looks like it has options, I really can't see any advatnage in taking one more than the other,. Even the time I put it in the bunker, it was a pretty easy wedge to the green. It would be really hard to find a position in the (left) bunker where the green couldnt be easily hit. Maybe with the pin on the left side of the green, there is an advantage in going left off the tee, but otherwise just blast away, wedge in and away you go.
Maybe a bit more wind would make the approach harder but this would be balanced by making the drive easier.
I reserve final judgement until I have played it a few more times with different winds and pin positions but at the moment I reckon it is a hole that the archie buffs will love the first few times around but tire of over time.
David,
Taken on its own, perhaps you would not call this a great hole. However, I think you need to place this hole in context and keep in mind the very challenging holes that will soon follow in the round. I think it is appropriate that the second hole be a bit of a breather, even a real birdie hole for the better players, a place to "put one in the bank" because you wiill surely need it later. As a fan of central hazards, I really like the tee shot because I think long left is a better angle to attack center and right pins, but the prevailing wind in your face requires that you have a good knowledge of how far you can carry the ball in the air. And while you can easily avoid this hazard by playing wide right, this will add 10 to 30 yards to your approach shot to the green, decreasing your acfuracy when you play your second shot.
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Even the time I put it in the bunker, it was a pretty easy wedge to the green. It would be really hard to find a position in the (left) bunker where the green couldnt be easily hit. Maybe with the pin on the left side of the green, there is an advantage in going left off the tee, but otherwise just blast away, wedge in and away you go.
It's a nice hole, but it feels like it should be 40 or 50 yards longer. Maybe that way the shallowness of the green and the ridge within it would exert more influence.
When the wind blows, I'll bet it plays 50 yards longer. I find the hole is great for match play, where a 4 may not be good enough for a half.
Generally speaking, I think Lost Farm is a great place for a Ballyneal-style matchplay round, as I enjoyed with Derek, Brett, and Tyler. Winners chose the next teeing ground. Best of all, we often chose ground not marked (or intended) for use as a tee box *(e.g. just off the edge of the previous green).
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David,
Taken on its own, perhaps you would not call this a great hole. However, I think you need to place this hole in context and keep in mind the very challenging holes that will soon follow in the round. I think it is appropriate that the second hole be a bit of a breather, even a real birdie hole for the better players, a place to "put one in the bank" because you wiill surely need it later. As a fan of central hazards, I really like the tee shot because I think long left is a better angle to attack center and right pins, but the prevailing wind in your face requires that you have a good knowledge of how far you can carry the ball in the air. And while you can easily avoid this hazard by playing wide right, this will add 10 to 30 yards to your approach shot to the green, decreasing your acfuracy when you play your second shot.
Bill,
I pretty much agree with most of your post. I would never criticise a hole for being easy but I will if the shots don't seem interesting.
On the 2nd, I am playing down the left every time. Into the wind, the bunker on this side doesn't really even come into play. Without wind, I am probably laying up short of it or hitting driver and not worrying about it (it is a very shallow hazard).
My suspecion is that with time the shots on this hole will not hold as much interest as they should.
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David,
I see your point, and agree that once you have found the fairway, the second shot is rather straightforward. But I seem to recall that when you go left you have much less room than right, and you bring the marrum grass into play if you go too far left. Obviously, you are a far better driver of the ball than I am :)
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I thought the second green was fascinating ... it reminded me instantly of some of the greens on The Old Course at St. Andrews, like it was just sitting on the ground that way the whole time. I asked Bill Coore what he had done there to shape the green, and he said it was pretty much like that all along, that they really didn't shape it much at all.
Another look at the green. Sure looks like they just started mowing.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s196/jmayhugh/barny%20lost%20farm/IMG_0866.jpg)
Kyle,
Sorry not to contribute more on these great threads. You're moving too fast for me to keep up!
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David,
I see your point, and agree that once you have found the fairway, the second shot is rather straightforward. But I seem to recall that when you go left you have much less room than right, and you bring the marrum grass into play if you go too far left. Obviously, you are a far better driver of the ball than I am :)
Our one round together should be enough evidence that this is not the case!
Left of the bunker is a bit tight but being right of the bunker is still on the left half of the fairway! There is 'going left' and 'going left' i suppose.
All the fairway out to the right and the right fairway bunker give the allusion that there are more options off the tee than there are, IMO
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Though short for a par 4 at 253 meters from the tips, the 3rd plays a bit up into the seaside dunes and the easterly breeze.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5183/5617598327_64a0e1e5ee_z.jpg)
Weather and skills permitting, an aggressive drive drawn from the right can run onto the green. Slight pulls will end up in the fronting bunker, as I discovered twice in two rounds (birdie, par).
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5225/5617598893_c14b9c364c_z.jpg)
As always, short-hitters have space to set up a full-wedge approach, but great care must be taken, as a large mound on the right will redirect shoddy shots and create awkward lies, often to great misfortune.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5070/5617599029_52d89e455d_z.jpg)
The fronting bunker requires a long and lofted recovery shot from the left while the right side is usually a bit more forgiving, for those subjected to its depths. The spray of sand short of the green provides evidence of the typical wind pattern.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5066/5617599189_26936e2582_z.jpg)
A raised tier defines the green’s aft segment. All pin positions are appropriately well-guarded for such a short test.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5143/5618185736_7d92676bb4_z.jpg)
Looking back from on high.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5183/5617697631_110886f01e_z.jpg)
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While I normally like centerline hazards, I think it does not work well on this hole. While I can probably carry it, I am risking too much just to get myself in half-wedge range, plus I bring a possible lost ball in the marrum grass into the equation. (At Lost Farm, a ball in the marrum grass is GONE, you can't even get in there to look. Trust me, I tried many times...) So this hole gets reduced to 4-iron wedge, and the best target off the tee is right side, over the large mound. Short of the mound is blind, and a weak shot may roll back down the hill, so I guess the layup shot has some interest.
I just think on a short hole there has to be more "reward" to make me take risk. If the bunker was 20 yards closer, in the full wedge to the green zone, I would have to take it on. In otherwords, if you let me choose between half wedge and full wedge, I am laying up almost every time, and the hole starts to feel a little like target golf. But if the choice is full wedge or 6 iron, I am much more likely to take on the hazard.
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David,
I see your point, and agree that once you have found the fairway, the second shot is rather straightforward. But I seem to recall that when you go left you have much less room than right, and you bring the marrum grass into play if you go too far left. Obviously, you are a far better driver of the ball than I am :)
Our one round together should be enough evidence that this is not the case!
I'm going to have to agree with Bill on David's skill with the driver. On 14 at Lost Farm I observed him skillfully play a low drive in such a way that it caroomed off a conveniently placed plastic tee (lying 15 feet in front of the boxes), utilizing the resulting back spin to perfectly arc with a slight fade into Position A in the fairway. I'd swear it was a mishit but I believe the same shot was played at least two other times during the round.
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While I normally like centerline hazards, I think it does not work well on this hole. While I can probably carry it, I am risking too much just to get myself in half-wedge range, plus I bring a possible lost ball in the marrum grass into the equation. (At Lost Farm, a ball in the marrum grass is GONE, you can't even get in there to look. Trust me, I tried many times...) So this hole gets reduced to 4-iron wedge, and the best target off the tee is right side, over the large mound. Short of the mound is blind, and a weak shot may roll back down the hill, so I guess the layup shot has some interest.
I just think on a short hole there has to be more "reward" to make me take risk. If the bunker was 20 yards closer, in the full wedge to the green zone, I would have to take it on. In otherwords, if you let me choose between half wedge and full wedge, I am laying up almost every time, and the hole starts to feel a little like target golf. But if the choice is full wedge or 6 iron, I am much more likely to take on the hazard.
Surprised you have this take knowing that you played the hole on Thursday afternoon with the wind howling. I'm going to divide this post into a strong wind analysis and a light wind analysis.
Strong Wind:
First, you'd be hard pressed to reach the bunker (which I'd classify as a fronting bunker and not a center-line hazard). In our group, I think there were two or three drivers hit and one or two three woods, and the closest anyone came to it was 40 yards short (leaving a full shot uphill, into a 3 or 4 club wind from around 70 or 80 yds). Second, the right side looks attractive, but any slightly pushed ball is dead and the chances of getting an even lie are slim to none. Third, Coore gave you plenty of options from the left side. You can play a ball up in the air over the bunker like any american parkland player would, or you could choose to use the contours to run a ball up the right and have it curl off the bank to the hole, like the St. Andrew's caddy program trained Sean Walsh did on Thursday.
Light Wind:
Faced with conditions where your ball wasn't blowing off the tee, the idea of going for the green comes into play. For a short par 4, I thought the risk reward options were great. If you're going for it, there's not a ton of room to miss, as a shot too far right is gone and anything that does not hit the right-side entry point is most likely going to roll into the bunker. I'm shocked that Kyle was able to play the hole in -1 in two tries from that bunker, but the pin on Saturday was pretty favorable for an easy up and down. For those that choose to layup, now you're faced with the myriad of decisions you discussed, distance, direction, etc.
For me, it was driver both days and in both wind conditions, and I wasn't displeased with either result. I found the 3rd to be incredibly fun, and although not my favorite short par 4 on the property it was high on the list.
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David,
I see your point, and agree that once you have found the fairway, the second shot is rather straightforward. But I seem to recall that when you go left you have much less room than right, and you bring the marrum grass into play if you go too far left. Obviously, you are a far better driver of the ball than I am :)
Our one round together should be enough evidence that this is not the case!
I'm going to have to agree with Bill on David's skill with the driver. On 14 at Lost Farm I observed him skillfully play a low drive in such a way that it caroomed off a conveniently placed plastic tee (lying 15 feet in front of the boxes), utilizing the resulting back spin to perfectly arc with a slight fade into Position A in the fairway. I'd swear it was a mishit but I believe the same shot was played at least two other times during the round.
I missed that shot of David's! I have little doubt that when he sees a centerline hazard he thinks "OK, that is something meant to be flown, give me the driver!"
I'm pretty sure this is him in the blue after climbing out of the hazard on Hole 4 at BD :)
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee169/wcb323/DSCN1153.jpg)
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Sven,
I played 3 wood on the really windy day, hit a blocked-right high ball that landed on the large mound and trickled back. Even in a strong wind, I can reach that bunker with a well hit driver because I will get decent roll.
Second time I played a 3 wood left and rolled it into the fronting bunker and hit a straightforward full sand wedge and made par. Third time I hit 4 iron- or maybe a 5 wood, then full gap wedge and made birdie. Both of these were very light wind days. And yes, the pin was in the front so the approach was much easier, we even had a slight backstop to work with, the ridge that divides the front and rear green sections.
But I don't see how you've made the case for taking on the risk of hitting driver, even in light wind days.
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Sven,
I played 3 wood on the really windy day, hit a blocked-right high ball that landed on the large mound and trickled back. Even in a strong wind, I can reach that bunker with a well hit driver because I will get decent roll.
Second time I played a 3 wood left and rolled it into the fronting bunker and hit a straightforward full sand wedge and made par. Third time I hit 4 iron- or maybe a 5 wood, then full gap wedge and made birdie. Both of these were very light wind days. And yes, the pin was in the front so the approach was much easier, we even had a slight backstop to work with, the ridge that divides the front and rear green sections.
But I don't see how you've made the case for taking on the risk of hitting driver, even in light wind days.
In my match on Saturday morning both my opponent and I hit driver, he was pin high and I was just off the front. We both made birdie. Its risk/reward, we were both rewarded. In match play, its a great hole.
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OK, I guess I am a wimp. Maybe I layed up on Saturday because I was still smarting from the 8 balls I lost on Thursday...including a long walk from the marrum grass on 18 with nary a ball left in my bag, too mad at myself to beg for another ball.
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I think you need another crack at it, when's the Boomerang returning to Tazzie?
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guys
I have a good photo of play from the blue tee on 3. I have to find my photo chip!.
3 blue is reached from the lhs of 2 green. It is set on top of the sandhill, overlooking 6 green. A lovely spot, but a shorter hole. That wide fairway you see on the left makes more sense having seen this tee. The hole doesn't use that rhight hand slope as much.
Photo to come, sorry.
James B
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James B: 3 blue is reached from the lhs of 2 green. It is set on top of the sandhill, overlooking 6 green. A lovely spot, but a shorter hole. That wide fairway you see on the left makes more sense having seen this tee. The hole doesn't use that rhight hand slope as much.
James that sounds fascinating - I didn't realise there was a tee up there - I think that would make for an interesting narrow entrance to the green between both traps. looking forward to the Pic.
Guys,
my take on this hole, is that on first seeing the hole layed out in front of you, it just looks like a great fun hole, and a bit of an arrowhead with the pointest end requiring the most accurate shot, I began with driver, then went back to 3W, then back to 4i until my final day was a 6iron to leave me a full 100-110m shot into the front pin. Hitting a 6 iron off the tee, is not the shot of most fun (that would be driver), but if you are 2 down after two, strategic play was required.
As with many of the great courses with these fabulous green complexes, I really feel like we miss out when we don't get to see some of the more interesting pin positions - I am dying to play this hole with the pin up the back, to me this one set the hole up the best, with a tiny green section to play to, with multiple features to navigate to get it all the way back there, most of them are an uphill shot.
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Hole 2:
Again, because of the length, some seem to think that it may lack some defence, but I do not agree with this, and apart from it being absolutely fine to have a 3.5 hole here in the routing, I think, as mentioned in previous post, that the pin positions affect play on this hole immensely, I think it is about 60 yards wide this green(?), and the central left bunker is about 200m off the tee, so it is certianly not a proposition to take driver down the left with a high degree of risk, (the bunkers depth will change over time I imagine) and although Dave maybe a proficient FW bunker player, (I thought the 60-100m bunker shot was one of the hardest in golf?) IMO that is adequate defence of the left hand side of the FW and as mentioned, the green is very shallow so distance control into the wind is of great importance.
An earlier round I played to a pin on about 6-10 paces frm the left, just near to the severest undulations on the green, and the four shots I watched played into the pin made for a great spectacle, because unless the shot was carried out exactly as intended, it was kicked away and bogie was best result.
So, even though it can play short, and with a lay up tee shot, trouble is removed, depending on pin placement, I think the next shot is critical and can result in a simple birdie put, a 3 putt or a chip and 2 putt - not perhaps in the top 6 holes on the course, but certainly, for mine not in the worst.
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Tom Doak:
I really didn't think the rest of the course was much like St. Andrews at all
My point was not that it was, but that the course as a whole was more like St Andrews Old than any other links I've played.
Perhaps that says more about all the others than it does about Barnbougle Lost Farm.
It struck me as odd while living in the UK that so few links courses seemed to have taken a lead from the oldest and gratest of them all.
What links in your travels have reminded you most of TOC?
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I found the third hole to play better when a crow doesn't steal your ball. Would love to have found their stash as they also snagged one from me a few holes later.
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Brett M,
Below is a photo from the Pre-Opening Pictorial Thread I posted on Lost Farm (here at GCA and on ww.thegolfforum.com),
taken from the Keiser tee on 3. It's a cool hole from up there. I prefer the Coore tee however.
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o64/kiteboymm/IMG_2507.jpg)
Below is the view from the back tee, for sake of comparison.
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o64/kiteboymm/IMG_2505.jpg)
MM
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When I got to the 3rd, it felt like "game on" to me.
I can see what Bill's saying, but I sure felt tempted to go for it. Especially right of that bunker. I chickened out with 3W on both rounds and that paid off. So maybe I'm a little biased.
Liked the green complex with its ridges that you can play with. A little TD rubbing off on C&C maybe on this one?
Couple of additional pics. I think a draw into the channel right of the bunker but not up top of the shelf has to be one hell of a shot.
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l320/UBeenMiniD/Barnbougle%20Lost%20Farm%203-11/DSC02649.jpg)
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l320/UBeenMiniD/Barnbougle%20Lost%20Farm%203-11/DSC02648.jpg)
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l320/UBeenMiniD/Barnbougle%20Lost%20Farm%203-11/DSC02647.jpg)
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Lost Farm 3rd Hole Blue Tee, starring Fran!
Not sure of the length, perhaps 180 metres. I guess this hole shows one of the challenges to the golf course architect - finding great features at the right distance apart to make a good hole.
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/JamesBennett/barnbougle/IMG_0495-1.jpg)
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I wasn't that enamored by #2 other than the green with the ridge running through it.
#3 is the start of one of the best three hole stretches on the property - the hole can be approached any number of ways and the centerline bunker is well placed. It's a pretty quick putt from above the hole as well. A very good short P4 though I prefer 14 moreso.
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The 4th hole is a par 3 of 124 meters in a stunningly beautiful setting.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5304/5623704472_0b3514ac59_z.jpg)
Playing into the wind, it is important to keep your head down and make a smooth swing. Though the 4th plays on the short side, flighting one’s ball through a substantial breeze with a lofted club can be tricky. Fortunately, the weather was very mild on this day.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5223/5623704804_05ef09d4d5_z.jpg)
The green is amply proportioned and not overly contoured. Furthermore, a miss into one of the bunkers will usually still offer a reasonable chance of getting up and down for par. Conversely, a bad miss can be lost in the marram grass.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5189/5623117283_97f08ba944_z.jpg)
Do not miss long and left.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5303/5623117437_d08615bb55_z.jpg)
Thanks to the spectacular panoramic views of the sea and the Barnbougle Dunes golf course across the river, waiting for the group ahead is hardly an inconvenience at this point in the round.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5022/5623117701_162f9cea0d_z.jpg)
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Did anyone successfully use the putter down the walking path?
This hole has the feel of a connecting par 3. A good one as it turns into a different direction and presents all kinds of trouble in and around the green. Yes, the setting and views are quite spectacular. I did not think the hole to be too difficult given the lack of wind we had (made a real mess of it in my second round though) and I think the smallish green size is what's important. For those that experienced it on the day with the 3-4 club wind, I'd love to hear how it played. Will a knockdown hold? It looks like a low knockdown just past the right fronting bunker will run and kick left into the green.
It was cool to see ahead of time from BD how long and left was trouble.
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l320/UBeenMiniD/Barnbougle%20Lost%20Farm%203-11/DSC03012.jpg)
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l320/UBeenMiniD/Barnbougle%20Lost%20Farm%203-11/DSC02598.jpg)
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l320/UBeenMiniD/Barnbougle%20Lost%20Farm%203-11/DSC03009.jpg)
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Patrick
I tried the putter about three times - one successful. I started by the blue tees on the rhs as well. Great fun, but quite narrow and you have to get the length and stregth right for your line.
James
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Patrick:
The wind on Thursday was not only up but quartering off the ocean. Any straight shot that was going to have a chance needed to start out well over the dunes on the right. I don't think anyone in our group was brave enough to try to launch one out far enough to that side, thus the result being four balls that either found the marram on the left or (if lucky) the tee box for the fifth (probably the only spot on the course where people on the next hole were in danger of being in the line of a slightly off target shot). The shot to play would probably be a hard low fade that fights back into the wind.
The back pin from Saturday made for some fun shots as balls played to the front right of the green generally fed off the slopes back to the hole. There was a bit of finesse involved as well to avoid running through. However, I think the front pin from Thursday provided a great deal more interest once you were on the green. From below the hole, a putt hit six feet past would turn around and have a chance of going in on the roll back.
For a baby par the 4th can be a devil if the wind is up, and its tough to beat that setting. The routing by Bill Coore out to the very corner formed by the estuary and the river is genius, and is the first example of a theme at Lost Farm that you don't find as much at Barnbougle Dunes, which is the use of corners and sharp angles. To me, Lost Farm felt much more like a jig-saw puzzle in the way a lot of the holes were arranged, especially here and in the home stretch from 16 to 18.
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3 and 4 are nice holes. I think however they might suffer by comparison to the great short par 4s and short par 3 across the river, which is a bit unfair on 3 in particular. I think both holes are held slightly back by a lack of width on the playing area. There seems to be more lost balls than cool recovery options on both holes. When Kyle says you don't want to be long and left on 4 I think it is a bit misleading because at least it is a place where you can find your ball. I think 4 really needs wind. The great short par 3s that i have played and seen call for an exacting shot, even in still conditions. 4 does not do this. It is pretty good evidence for the argument that par 3s aren't Coore's strong point, IMO.
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3 and 4 are nice holes. I think however they might suffer by comparison to the great short par 4s and short par 3 across the river, which is a bit unfair on 3 in particular. I think both holes are held slightly back by a lack of width on the playing area. There seems to be more lost balls than cool recovery options on both holes. When Kyle says you don't want to be long and left on 4 I think it is a bit misleading because at least it is a place where you can find your ball. I think 4 really needs wind. The great short par 3s that i have played and seen call for an exacting shot, even in still conditions. 4 does not do this. It is pretty good evidence for the argument that par 3s aren't Coore's strong point, IMO.
David:
Par-3's are not supposed to be my strong suit, either. But, saying a hole at Barnbougle really needs wind is kind of pointless ... how many days have you played there where there wasn't a good wind?
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It is pretty good evidence for the argument that par 3s aren't Coore's strong point, IMO.
David
I'd be interested as to how many C&C courses you have now seen to make that statement ?
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When Kyle says you don't want to be long and left on 4 I think it is a bit misleading because at least it is a place where you can find your ball.
I think it would be more misleading to suggest that long and left is a place you do want to be. A large fraction of players would make a better score hitting 3 from the tee than 2 from the bottom of that hill.
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The eminently memorable 5th is a par 4 of 443 meters that curves right around a mountain of grass-laden sand.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5066/5623247435_a5217f8d92_z.jpg)
A small patch of fairway seen from the tee lures players to the left, but tee shots must land right of the small ridge in the fairway to avoid bouncing into the bush or carrying the short grass entirely. Big hitters can aim well right to shorten the hole.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5025/5623247591_8a02e12c45_z.jpg)
Once around the corner, the heaving fairway works towards a green perched against the river.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5265/5623837016_5b0220909c_z.jpg)
A view of the hole from above.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5070/5623247741_eab52e4f9d_z.jpg)
This is naturalistic design at its finest.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5309/5623247897_c81b9a6aeb_z.jpg)
Those able to cut off some distance over the corner will have a much better chance of reaching the green in two, especially with the wind coming in from the right.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5265/5623248327_34c14ca176_z.jpg)
The large green is open to long, running approach shots and tilted toward the front/right corner.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5065/5623248619_4cd54770aa_z.jpg)
Here is a rearward view of Lost Farm’s 5th green from across the river (near Barnbougle Dunes 15th tee).
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5138/5559566655_d7f70c7989_z.jpg)
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Without question one of my favorite holes at LF.
Here's the deal though, it's a fine line for the drive. As Kyle points out, if you refuse to go over the dune and keep it left ... you might consider 3W if you're a straight hitter or bust out your power fade. But who wants to go 3W on this? No one. I got hosed with driver going down just left of the dune but to the right of the ridge in my afternoon round. Perfect drive or so I thought. It went through the fairway is our only explanation. In the morning round I challenged the dune and went right over the top where the roundish bush is. Nowhere to be found and we think it got caught up somewhere on the way down. I'm positive I cleared the top, but it's a long way after that to clear the ball onto the fairway. That's because the dune runs somewhat diagonally (almost parallel when you look a Kyle's pic from above). I like how you get a good look at the hole on your way from the 4th (or even 3rd to the 4th). I did not take advantage of that obviously.
The approach is very cool to that nestled green perched up and in to the right of the scrub. Lots of fun putts up there.
I'll post a couple later, but from the tee ... you can see the opening around the dune to the right that would take you into the green. It's mowed and shaved Brazilian style from that angle and you can see this from the tee and across the way from BD. I'll bet anything with a wind like there was on Thursday that someone with some distance could give it a go from that angle.
I'll go on a limb and say the stretch from the 3rd through the 5th is up there at the top.
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For those not familar with this hole, Kyle's first two photos are not from the tee, but rather, slightly to the left so he can show you more of the hole.
While I think the second shot and the green complex are superb, I have doubts about the blind tee shot, which asks you to pick a spot on the huge dune to carry. I'll throw this out to the group for opinions:
Do you think a blind tee shot works well on a dogleg, especially on a destination course? I played with Patrick Kiiser and we both hit excellent tee shots over the center of the hill. Both went right through the fairway into the marrum, my ball never to be seen again. I really think a bunker should have been placed on the outside of this fairway to prevent this. Thoughts?
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I really think a bunker should have been placed on the outside of this fairway to prevent this. Thoughts?
Bill,
Agreed ;D I think a bunker like the one on the 1st on the opposite side of the fairway would help.
That or clearing up more of the brush and keeping it at the same rough length, so you can find your ball.
I'm curious to know how many experienced the same result.
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David:
Par-3's are not supposed to be my strong suit, either. But, saying a hole at Barnbougle really needs wind is kind of pointless ... how many days have you played there where there wasn't a good wind?
[/quote]
Tom,
It's par 5s that aren't your strong point, not par 3s. :)
The majority of rounds I have played at Barnbougle have been less than 2 clubs. I have played more than 14 rounds. It is noticeable that the 7th hole at bd is a demanding shot on a still day. The 4th at lf is not. Not by a long way. I think great holes are great in a variety of conditions. The Bowled green at 4 makes the tee shot unchallenging on a still day. The marram close to the green makes it penal on a windy day, I suspect.
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It is pretty good evidence for the argument that par 3s aren't Coore's strong point, IMO.
David
I'd be interested as to how many C&C courses you have now seen to make that statement ?
Kevin, read it more closely. The argument is not mine. Just pointing out that this hole supports those that make the argument, imo.
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I really think a bunker should have been placed on the outside of this fairway to prevent this. Thoughts?
Bill,
Agreed ;D I think a bunker like the one on the 1st on the opposite side of the fairway would help.
That or clearing up more of the brush and keeping it at the same rough length, so you can find your ball.
I'm curious to know how many experienced the same result.
Patrick, not to be picky, but I found YOUR ball...You went a few feet to the left of the peak of the dune and still got screwed. MY BALL went over the dead center of the peak and I killed it, never to be seen again...My problem with this hole is that everyone must pick a (blind) line. Yeah, i know its only blind once...but when you fly 16 hours and lose a ball on a caeer drive...
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Patrick, Bill,
I believe the course spuperintendent said that they were clearing out vegetation through the fairway and intending to clear out some more. Maybe the middle tee is a bit pokey for the drive? There are a few back tees that arent used, I think, one right up near 4 green.
I think it is the one hole at Lost Farm that is unquestionably great. The diagonal ridge in the driving area is a great feature, the approach is spectacular and the green extreme in its contours. Loved it.
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I am pretty sure this is a picture of the approach to the 5th green from the left side of the fairway, where Patrick and I had to drop...You can see that the hole is gorgeous and is crafted beautifully from the land. I just have doubts that it can be called "great" when a significant % of the players will be taking drops from the gorse on the left. But I may just be whining...I just think a fairway bunker placed right about where you see the white plate, framing the outside of the landing area, would make the hole so much better. I am not making par, but at least I am not dropping.
Also note the Raynor-like slope on the bank to the right of the green. A number of CGAers commented on this and we wondered if Coore has built others greens like this, or maybe this was just a natural land form?
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee169/wcb323/DSCN1217.jpg)
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I am pretty sure this is a picture of the approach to the 5th green from the left side of the fairway, where Patrick and I had to drop...You can see that the hole is gorgeous and is crafted beautifully from the land. I just have doubts that it can be called "great" when a significant % of the players will be taking drops from the gorse on the left. But I may just be whining...I just think a fairway bunker placed right about where you see the white plate, framing the outside of the landing area, would make the hole so much better. I am not making par, but at least I am not dropping.
Also note the Raynor-like slope on the bank to the right of the green. A number of CGAers commented on this and we wondered if Coore has built others greens like this, or maybe this was just a natural land form?
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee169/wcb323/DSCN1217.jpg)
Bill,
I'm pretty sure that picture is of hole #8...
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One of my favorite holes anywhere. Only regret is we didn't get to play to a top shelf pin.
I can see how others might not like the tee shot, but for me it fit my eye. The idea of picking a spot up on hillside as an aiming point and trying to keep the ball from moving right of that line worked for my game.
Brett Morrissey pointed out the Keiser tee on the north side of the 4th green. Would make for an amazing hole by lengthening the drive and opening up the fairway a bit.
This is another hole where a strong wind makes a difference. On Thursday it seemed like the helping (yet slightly crossing wind) served to protect balls from going right. It also shortened the hole a bit and made the approach a little easier. Not sure of the green sizes at LF, but this has to be one of the biggest, thus finding the putting surface by no means guarantees a par.
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Bill, Kyle is correct - that is the approach on 8.
I was fortunate not to be bitten by " long left off the tee" - I think for competent golfers that tee box is a bit cramped at the driving zone and then brings into question the 'legitimacy' of the blind tee shot.
Whereas, back to the black tee, it then becomes cut off some of the blind corner, OR hit it toward the FW that is visible on the left and you shouldn't be able to make the lost ball area.
Dave is correct, the super said along with a little thinning, clearing, they were going to grow some of the FW turf down the to make a deeper first cut, to pull your ball ip before the marram and bush
Clayts is the one I read said that from the tiny tee to the North of the 4th green, this may be the best P4 in OZ, Clayts correct me if that is not stated accurately. I think that would be a great tee to be in play.
Some of our group thought it was helpful when golfers on 4 tee, watched our tee shots to confirm they were ok.
I too think this is a spectacular hole, do not care about the blindness, it adds to the intrigue, for mine, it is the uncertainty and not complete commitment to the shot that will usually result in a lost ball. Debate on the tee as to the line to take is great fun.
I know some pretty big hitters, but none of them can take on the right side of the dune carry to that Brazillian turf that Pat is fond of!
I too was very keen to see a back pin, so it was only dismay felt the foolwing and last day at Batnbougle coming down 14 to see the back pin in play after we'd left!
As beautiful a site as 4 is for the par 3, I agree in mild conditions, which as I have stated earlier is a frequent occurrence for my trips to BD, for me it lacks teeth (I'd have preferred a hole like 6 located on Sally's Point), it feels as though the first run of 4 holes are still easing me into the round, I love shorter holes, but feel like a few of the starting holes would benefit from black tees or as suggested, swapping the two P3's 4 & 6 locales.
Of course with a club or more prevailing, there is no issue with these first four holes, which I am sure is one of the biggest issues the builders have to deal with on a coastal routing like this - how to balance benign vs strong breeze playability.
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Brett:
Clayts is the one I read said that from the tiny tee to the North of the 4th green, this may be the best P4 in OZ, Clayts correct me if that is not stated accurately. I think that would be a great tee to be in play.
I believe Mike's comment was "that's the best golf hole in Australia that isn't a golf hole" and it was made while standing on the 4th tee and looking down towards the 5th green.
I may be wrong.
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Scott,
My recollection of the comment was it referred to the spot north of the fourth green.
I thought that 5 and 8 were the standout holes on the front nine. The only reservation I have with this hole (and I will need to play it a few more times) is that the tier running diagonally from front left to the back (creating the back left shelf) is possibly too severe for a back right pin position, given that the average golfer will be approaching this green with a long iron or fairway wood in hand.
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Couple of pics as promised. Check out the first pic to the very far right of the fescued dune (sorry for the bright sun)... You can see the flag from the tee. Then the second for the mowed ridge to the left of the fescue covered dune.
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l320/UBeenMiniD/Barnbougle%20Lost%20Farm%203-11/DSC02672.jpg)
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l320/UBeenMiniD/Barnbougle%20Lost%20Farm%203-11/DSC02684.jpg)
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l320/UBeenMiniD/Barnbougle%20Lost%20Farm%203-11/DSC02685.jpg)
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It is pretty good evidence for the argument that par 3s aren't Coore's strong point, IMO.
David
I'd be interested as to how many C&C courses you have now seen to make that statement ?
Kevin, read it more closely. The argument is not mine. Just pointing out that this hole supports those that make the argument, imo.
David
I found it odd that you of all people would be prepared to make a claim of that sort IMO without having seen a few C&C course hence why I asked ;)
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One of my favorite holes anywhere. Only regret is we didn't get to play to a top shelf pin.
Pin was there the next day Sven, on the Monday!
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David
I found it odd that you of all people would be prepared to make a claim of that sort IMO without having seen a few C&C course hence why I asked ;)
I think you are being a bit of a trouble maker, Kev. I already explained that I did not make the claim, but others have. Patrick Kiser being one of them who is contributing to this thread. I have only seen 4 C&C courses so withold judgement for now. But 4 and 15 and maybe 17 are underachievements in design IMO and support the opinion of Patrick and others.
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David
Pot calling kettle ?
The only real dog at Lost Farm for mine is 18a - they shouldn't have bothered building it. Would be interested to hear you explore your thoughts - maybe on another thread re: C&C as after all - I've never known you to sit on the fence ? ;D
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David
Pot calling kettle ?
The only real dog at Lost Farm for mine is 18a - they shouldn't have bothered building it. Would be interested to hear you explore your thoughts - maybe on another thread re: C&C as after all - I've never known you to sit on the fence ? ;D
Agree with you on 18a, Kevin. It will be a chipping green within a few years, IMO. There is a big difference between a dog and an underachievement though. I haven't seen C&C build a bad hole on any of the courses I have played.
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The 6th is a par 3 of 155 meters, playing a touch downhill and with the wind typically blowing from left to right.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5229/5634256813_34f3709e02_z.jpg)
The green is generously proportioned with a bunker on the front/right.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5307/5634257063_5fe8859236_z.jpg)
While the bunker’s lip will punish poor sand play, it can be even more punishing to those unable to flop a high, soft pitch from a tight fairway lie short of the trap.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5068/5634257339_c104dac9d0_z.jpg)
Recovery shots are much simpler from the front/left corner…
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5226/5634257597_9da483855f_z.jpg)
…although this day’s flag position, viewed from the right edge of the green, is just beyond a vexing ripple in the putting surface.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5026/5634258037_369b603fa2_z.jpg)
The right side of the green is tilted from front-to-back, adding further complication to club selection when the pin is tucked behind the bunker.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5102/5634258479_67bd0b03ef_z.jpg)
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At this point in the round, I am glad that I had a breather hole on #2...I hit what I thought was a decent iron to the green, only to be on the wrong side of the "vexing ridge" that Kyle described above. I had a 25 foot putt, and literally no way to get it near the hole. After crossing the ridge I would have had way too much pace on the ball from the downslope to get it within 10 feet...So I tried putting off the back of the green and hoped the slope would bring it back towards the cup. Bogey.
I have not played enough C & C greens to prove this, but I got the feeling that this was one green where Bill Coore was influenced by neighboring BD and "went for it" with the construction of this green.
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Bill,
I left myself the same putt and tried the backboard play as well.
It's a great green, IMO. Perfect for the mid-iron you're likely to have in and the width of the green suits the prevailing crosswind.
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I think the hole is best described as having two greens, a left hand and a right hand green. The 'ridge splits the two effective greens apart with a severe hazard.
The pin played in the Boomerang was on the left edge of the right hand green. Woe betide you if you went left! yes you avoided the bunker, but the recovery putt was more difficult.
It may be that the penalty of the ridge diminishes over time if the fescue component in the greens takes off. IMO, the Lost Farm greens (which have some bent in them for initial establishment) play faster than those across the stream at Barnbougle.
Pup had the putt from the wrong green, and with our encouragement, took 4. He saw the backboard play and didn't take it. His practice shot immediately afterwards executed a perfect backboard play!
Local knowledge is indeed at play on what appears to be a benign pin position.
James B
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I noted with interest that there was a vague comparison between Lost Farm and St Andrews previously.
I have only had one day at St Andrews so my memory isn't great but the 2nd and 6th holes reminded me a bit of some of the holes at St andrews in that there was a big green but a central feature on the green that it seemed like the pin needed to be close to to have a lot of interest.
I loved the 6th hole at Lost Farm to the pin position we played. It offered all sorts of options and rewarded good execution. I think all the really good pin positions are near that central ridge, although I might be selling some of the contour on the left half of the green short. Not sure if this is much of a limitation or not. Really interesting hole IMO.
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Really liked this hole as I got lucky in the morning round with a bird ;D
It looks reverse Redanish in a way. It's got the table top thing going and the entrance into the green definitely allows you to run it and turn it. The ridge and the backboard make it that more interesting.
Just a good hole. Period.
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I liked #5 & #6 - both offer some really interesting setups that encourage a bit of lateral thinking and execution.
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Just had a brief read on the latest interview and Flynn's triangular routed groupings on windy courses- it seems this to me reminds me of this last 3 hole stretch - With one more to come - and it feels so good to play and be challenged by he wind so differently so quickly by simply turning 270 degrees over 3 holes and am surprised this is not utilized more...
Once again, as with a few of the previous holes, for me there is a stand out preferred pin position and that is behind the the bunker on the right requiring great skill in controlling the distance, accuracy the lesser importance, go back to 4 and accuracy probably prevails over distance a little.
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Brett,
In my experience, linksland this wide, allowing for routings like at Lost Farm, is rare, or we'd see more routings like that.
There is a lot to be said for a routing that turns so frequently, like Royal St George's and Hankley Common do.
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In response to David Elvins comment on the pin needing to be near the central ridge to provide any interest, I would whole-heartedly disagree. The Thursday pin was in the "dell" like area over the bunker. With a strong cross wind from left to right, it was exceedingly difficult to find that portion of the green, but if you managed to get over the bunkers and not run through into the marram, balls would generally feed to the middle of the putting surface leaving a fairly straight forward putt.
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Bringing golfers back through the flats, the 7th is a 396 meter-long par 4. Here, the wind is usually from behind or quartering from the right.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5022/5634858802_99d8a4804c_z.jpg)
Somewhat reminiscent of the 17th at Cruden Bay, the fairway here is interrupted by a large mound smack in the middle of the landing zone, yet plenty of width is provided for those electing to skirt by on either flank.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5146/5634859086_b8b45967a0_z.jpg)
Ever the minimalist, Bill Coore once bemoaned the placement of a natural heap in the planned 7th fairway as being too near the right side. Hearing this, the owner/client had crew members move the pile 20 yards left during the middle of the night.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5270/5634859334_50c6672177_z.jpg)
Tee balls that stop short of the mound yield blind approaches.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5022/5634279297_fd5542175e_z.jpg)
Skirting the left side will open up the longest axis of the green.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5027/5634860032_6df033e597_z.jpg)
From the right, pins become progressively more difficult to access the further right they are placed.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5064/5634280107_80d4c76714_z.jpg)
For big hitters or in strong tailwinds, carrying the mound entirely is possible. Few will be crooked enough to miss this massive playing corridor.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5145/5634860994_63581850b4_z.jpg)
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This tee shot is pure FUN. I played the hole 3 times. Carried the bunker once, skirted it on the left once (best angle to the green) and hit a good drive that failed to carry the dune once, and got my just rewards, a near buried lie on the mound.
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Bill,
I remember clearly that was where your drive ended on the Sunday afternoon, and even more clearly the incredible effort from there to get the ball into the greenside bunker. Remarkable shot.
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I'm not a fan of the "Ayres Rock" styled mound on #7 - it looks and feels so manufactured for mine.
They could have achieved a similar effect with the creation of a series of bunkers instead ?
That said - the green site location is particularly pleasing.
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I'm not a fan of the "Ayres Rock" styled mound on #7 - it looks and feels so manufactured for mine.
Does anyone know if the mound was built up or found?
This was the only hole where I got "Brightlyed," I hit what I thought was a good drive over the left side of the mound, never to be seen again. Only guess is that the ball hit the back of the mound and took off for the long stuff. To me the play is directly over the mound (very doable with the any breeze over 2 clubs) or just to the right of it. The green sets up to feed balls coming in over the short right-side bunker back to the middle and over to the left side. I thought the green contours were some of the best on the course, with a myriad of pin positions that could make things interesting. I also noticed how the left side of the green was shaped to propel a slight miss away from the green while capturing a shot that was 3 to 4 yards within the green boundary.
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Sven,
Don't forget about the crows...they seem to particularly like scooping up well hit drives...
The mound was built up (actually moved...) In our after dinner Q & A with Richard Sattler, he said that Bill Coore commented that he wished the dune on the right side of the fairway was actually in the center. I think I heard Richard sattler say that he got on the bulldozer himself and moved it that night, surprising Coore when he next saw the hole.
I did not think it was unatural-looking, but Kevin must have a keen eye. I imagine that it will blend in with the surrounds over time.
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Jevin, Sven, Bill,
I mentioned the orgins of the mound above (reply #81)...
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Hole # 8 extends up to 554 meters, but plays downwind to a wide (!) fairway.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5182/5634894654_757fa9b05b_z.jpg)
The fairway is angled from left-to-right with respect to the advanced teeing grounds. Aggressive lines down the right edge can bring the green within reach, but anything that strays too far to starboard will be punished severely.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5068/5634314745_b27a6db02c_z.jpg)
When the wind is howling, one must be careful not to run their tee shot into the left-center fairway bunker. On calmer days, in reverse winds or for very short/crooked hitters (i.e. under normal conditions), the bunker will affect second shots.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5261/5634315037_256d2736f6_z.jpg)
The final approach to the green is uphill, with a centerline pot bunker set well short of the surface to catch low runners from long range.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5261/5634895476_47e757a66e_z.jpg)
Though small, this little pot coaxes many to play down the right…
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5110/5634895820_f73a67b51b_z.jpg)
… and will require a well-played escape shot to reach the green.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5222/5634896296_b8ae2834bc_z.jpg)
Looking backwards, it becomes clear that missing right of the green (left of frame) is no bargain.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5225/5634896750_d8035ea3d0_z.jpg)
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I'm kind of with Kevin on the mound for the 7th. Feels contrived.
Like the green and surrounds though.
The 8th is one of my favorites. That's just a cool hole. I really like how the tee shot shapes. In the afternoon round the crows also got one of my best drives of the day. The green complex and the massive dunes to the back and right are something else. The fronting green bunker seems to be a magnet. C&C use this strategy on several of their courses I've noticed.
I'll say it again, I feel C&C make some pretty good par 5s.
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The 8th is one of my favorites. That's just a cool hole. I really like how the tee shot shapes. In the afternoon round the crows also got one of my best drives of the day. The green complex and the massive dunes to the back and right are something else. The fronting green bunker seems to be a magnet. C&C use this strategy on several of their courses I've noticed.
I'll say it again, I feel C&C make some pretty good par 5s.
Patrick
I loved 8. I thought it was the best P5 on the property - there's interest on every shot.
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Couple of pics to supplement Kyle's
7th approach:
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l320/UBeenMiniD/Barnbougle%20Lost%20Farm%203-11/DSC02702.jpg)
7th green from right dune:
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l320/UBeenMiniD/Barnbougle%20Lost%20Farm%203-11/DSC02707.jpg)
8th approach from left shelf:
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l320/UBeenMiniD/Barnbougle%20Lost%20Farm%203-11/DSC02719.jpg)
8th green entrance right:
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l320/UBeenMiniD/Barnbougle%20Lost%20Farm%203-11/DSC02722.jpg)
8th green entrance left: notice rise thanks to Scott
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l320/UBeenMiniD/Barnbougle%20Lost%20Farm%203-11/DSC02724.jpg)
8th green front bunker:
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l320/UBeenMiniD/Barnbougle%20Lost%20Farm%203-11/DSC02725.jpg)
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I am still not convinced about the FW mound on 7, I think it would have 'blended' into the surrounding FW with a few smaller mounds and bumps, and that with a couple of years of coastal wind, it will probably get blown and moved around a bit - I believe the super suggested that there may be some tweaking of it, perhaps with exposing some sand, it will hopefully evolve into something that looks more natural.
- a super green site with smile inducing back drop of dunes, sandy blowouts and marram.
Eight is a favorite, I am probably 50/50 successful on my tee shots, and still love it, and my absolute favorite bunker on the course is the nasty little fella just short right of the green, very hairy and gnarly and deep.
The only negative on both 7/8 tees, and it is no fault of Mr Coores, but the new clubhouse (not the restaurant) roof line is enormous, and looks very ugly, a poor design because of no consideration giving to the aspect from the golf course, it seems, IMO!
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The 9th hole is a par 4 measuring up to just 306 meters and generally played in a left-to-right wind. Sadly, the on-site accommodations detract from the aesthetics.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5264/5642729184_9b65e9d68e_z.jpg)
Featuring a split fairway, the lower left side of the hole is wider and on a more direct line to the green. The rough separating the upper and lower fairway sections is quite penal, as are the bushes that border the prepared corridor.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5265/5642729318_58c8f81f26_z.jpg)
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Interested to get others thoughts on this hole - it seemed to me there was little reward for going to the smaller right fairway segment, especially with such a short club in hand on approach irrespective of drive placement. I know the green is angled to favor approaches from the right, but the shot from the left didn't seem so tough.
MM
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MM
the hole 'looks' better from the black tee. From the 'terracotta', the upper level just doesn't seem an option.
Benje
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The hole really is narrow up near the green. I took driver the first time I played it but dont feel the risk is worth the reward.
It was just an OK short P4 for mine - there's a little too much room left if one decides to layback to give it any real interest.
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It's a very different hole from the two tees. From the back, it almost forces a particular shot on the player - a faded driver or three wood, since you wouldn't hit to the right hand portion deliberately, and a draw could carom off the mounds or slope past the ridge into the rubbish left.
From the middle tees, it's just a layup. Some pins may be easier to access from the right, but it is too narrow, with too much trouble for missing, to hit it there. The dune up near the green also hinders depth perception to some degree from there. After all the width on offer in the previous holes, it is interesting to be confronted with such a narrow hole, and it is a very nice green, but the fairway doesn't match the green.
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Thing is, on a property so chockers with choice short fours, one that lacks greatness just sticks out like a sore thumb.
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With the critiques of this hole pretty much in agreement - why does the DG think was the reasoning, strategy behind the architects laying out of the golf hole with the smaller right section not really offering a reward that is fitting that of the risk?
So, what should they have done? I guess there is room to remove some foliage from the high right - perhaps removing more down left may offer the easiest and unthinking option more room, but a more challenging and difficult angle into the green?
Is the rough "wall" in the centre of the FW, just a feature to enliven what would have been a strong sloping FW left to right without much interest and seemingly easy hole, the separation adding visual interest off the tee, but really is just a narrow FW on a short hole?
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Does the 9th at Lost Farm remind anyone a little of ... a reverse 8th at the Dunes?
I felt that way a little off the tee. Without question I felt 3W here and not driver as well.
Agreed the risk/reward factor of going right doesn't seem to provide much of an advantage. Perhaps with the wind it makes a difference? Not sure.
To Scott's comment about this hole sticking out and being memorable for what it is not, I actually feel this even more on a few holes on the back 9. Namely the 13th and 16th strike me as kind of blah. I could be missing something on those though...
To Brett's question, my guess would be the lay of the land dictated this right section being a part of this hole as the routing back to the clubhouse was of more importance. Ultimately a question for C&C, but just a guess on my part.
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Patrick,
Completely disagree (especially about 16). 13 is a wind tunnel that, when the wind is blowing, forces two well struck shots to give you a chance at birdie. The flattish green (as with 16) is a nice change of pace from the other holes on offer.
16 is a lovely hole on some of the least interesting land on the property.
Re 9. I agree with most of the comments here. I found the gully to the right of the top fairway twice and the left half of the fairway once.
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I found the 9th to be an absolute nothing hole. Hit a 3 wood past the rough in the middle of the fairway and have a boring pitch into the green.
The 8th I think is one of the best par 5's anywhere, and it's fantastic that it's a true 3 shotter playing up to 550m! I loved the angle of the tee shot, and the 2nd shot felt a bit more demanding to me than the rest of the 2nd's on the other par 5's.
Also I am going out on a limb here and will say that the 5th at LF is the best hole I've ever played. It's an absolute brute. Anyone else love this hole as much as me?
Of the par 3's at LF I would say that the 6th was my favorite. It's a fantastic green with that ridge dividing the green into 2 distinct portions. However I'm sure if I played the 4th in much windier conditions, then my opinion of best par 3 might change.
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Patrick,
Completely disagree (especially about 16). 13 is a wind tunnel that, when the wind is blowing, forces two well struck shots to give you a chance at birdie. The flattish green (as with 16) is a nice change of pace from the other holes on offer.
16 is a lovely hole on some of the least interesting land on the property.
Re 9. I agree with most of the comments here. I found the gully to the right of the top fairway twice and the left half of the fairway once.
Sean,
Oh I'm not saying they're bad holes. Just not very memorable. Without any wind (which was our case on Saturday), both were rather uninteresting to me. That makes them somewhat one dimensional I think. Agreed they break up the action and kind of build up the barometer for what's ahead. Both of those holes feel more about the helping out the routing to me.
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I can understand the mixed reviews on 13, but I thought 16 was outstanding. I'll reserve comment until the tour reaches those holes, except to say the green setting and subtle front left to back right cant at 16 was phenomenal.
As for 9, I don't see the reward in trying to play to the right, but I didn't mind having that area to help a slight push. To me, the play is as close to the central rough as possible, opening up a bit of the green for a left side pin and giving you a good line into the swale on the right for a pin on that side. If you were anywhere to the left of the pin on Saturday, the upslope on the extreme right side of the green was an excellent backstop. While playing with James and Sean, we tried a couple of putts up the bank and back with a great deal of success. i would imagine a front left pin would be a bear in any conditions.
I didn't comment on 8, but thought it was a very strong hole. To play the hole successfully, you almost engage in a bit of a chess match with the architect. He asks you to stay right off the tee, which opens up the fairway for your second. But it is pretty hard to trust your line with the most common results being a drive that misses its mark to the right or is pulled a bit and runs through the fairway to the left leaving a shot over the massive fairway bunkers. On the second, there is way more room out to the left past the fairway bunkers, but the desired shot into the green is as close to the right as you can get. Play safe and have to come over the collecting bunker or challenge the rough line and risk disaster. I did not play this hole well during my three rounds, and I'd love another crack at it.
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The 10th hole heads inland from the foot of a sprinkler-laden dune (to stabilize the sand while accommodations are constructed).
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5068/5650233442_618c2ddc8b_z.jpg)
A true 3-shot hole of 543 yards, the 10th tends to play dead downwind.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5110/5649669091_8f0247294c_z.jpg)
The peripheral dunes lend the illusion of a constricted fairway, but plenty of room is offered.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5065/5650234106_d193eb2872_z.jpg)
Well-played tee shots that find the left-center of the fairway will shorten the hole considerably.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5143/5649669669_079dc53a65_z.jpg)
Straying too far right, one may be blocked out a bit by this towering sand mound.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5102/5649670071_bee7fafb1f_z.jpg)
The second shot will ideally be positioned to somewhere short and right of the green. Anything hole-high and right may call for a flop shot over the scrubby, treed hillock.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5063/5650235126_734f388331_z.jpg)
This small hump in the fairway might kick running approaches into the left bunker or wide right of the green, complicating the task of reaching the green in two shots.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5228/5650235602_04a316fcdf_z.jpg)
Behind the green, one may find some interesting lies.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5068/5650236328_7f6edf98fd_z.jpg)
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I thought this was one of the coolest green sites on the course. For some reason or another, most everyone I played with seemed to get out of position to the right, and fumbled away a shot or two or three around the green.
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Another great "Coorener," the way the 10th green, 11th tee and 12th green fit together is wonderful. On my first play, I fell victim to the right side danger, hitting a 3wood second shot into an unplayable lie in the small tree line to the right of the green. The way the 10th sits off to the side from the fairway, and the daunting look of the bunkers on the short left side, makes this a tough green to hit in two. There is a bunch of room off to the left that is not evident from the fairway that could be used as a bailout for those playing the heavy prevailing wind to get there in two.
I really liked the tee shot on this hole as well, the elevated nature of the drive to the canyon below looked really cool. The danger being one might try to cut off some room on the left, which looks like a possiblity but in reality will only lead to a lost ball.
[Cue Mayhugh and others discussing the crows at this point in the round.]
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Yes, another good hole and this starts off the stretch of "farm" holes. Nicely framed tee shot to a wide open fairway and a clever approach to the nestled green to the left. The subtle bumps adjacent to the greenside bunker are a neat little feature
But ... in both rounds just about everyone was trying to understand what was going on with all that mowed grass behind the green and adjacent to the 11th tee. Many were confused by it. That's more than plenty for any recovery. Was something planned here?
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l320/UBeenMiniD/Barnbougle%20Lost%20Farm%203-11/DSC02758.jpg)
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Maybe Sven answered my question, but I guess it was surprising to see that much back there. On a back pin setup it might come in really handy perhaps.
Sven,
What cant on the 16th? We couldn't see anything to suggest a cant ??? ??? ??? .
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Patrick,
Here’s another view from behind the 10th green, showing the "lawn" that wraps around the 11th tee. My impression is that they grassed the area for aesthetic reasons. Since everything else at the bottom of the valley was prepared fairway, it would seem strange to have a an open patch of native ground here.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5270/5649938563_96f404305b_z.jpg)
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Maybe Sven answered my question, but I guess it was surprising to see that much back there. On a back pin setup it might come in really handy perhaps.
Sven,
What cant on the 16th? We couldn't see anything to suggest a cant ??? ??? ??? .
The entire 16th green slopes from the front left to the back right. Its very deceptive (almost an optical illusion), as it appears perfectly flat, but every putt on the green is affected by that slope.
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Maybe Sven answered my question, but I guess it was surprising to see that much back there. On a back pin setup it might come in really handy perhaps.
Sven,
What cant on the 16th? We couldn't see anything to suggest a cant ??? ??? ??? .
The entire 16th green slopes from the front left to the back right. Its very deceptive (almost an optical illusion), as it appears perfectly flat, but every putt on the green is affected by that slope.
I guess I'll just have to back down and check it out at some point ;) .
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I thought this was one of the coolest green sites on the course. For some reason or another, most everyone I played with seemed to get out of position to the right, and fumbled away a shot or two or three around the green.
tom,
How has Coore designed the green so that hitting right is out of position. What features has he used to achieve this? Are they common features or unique to this hole?
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I was lucky enough to get a sneak peak at LF about 18 mths before opening, as we drove in, Mr Coore was walking down the 12 the FW with his pink flags - the 10/11/12/13 area was shaped, and we thought it looked incredibly cool, a few specimen trees, and just beautiful short cut grass all around, and a really good way to tie all this opening b9 set of holes together.
Dave, I really like the way the green is tucked around the corner, with a large and pretty deep bunker and the dune/the trees [edit] guarding every approach from down the fairway, I would think this is the kind of feature usually saved for a good short par 4, so my preferred play of the hole after a few attempts, in benign conditions, is to hit my 2 nd shot down the right hand side to about bunker or pin high - and the further the right the better, we have been allowed tons of room to play away from the bunker, this leaves with a pitch straight down the axis of the green and up to 80 yards, a solid pitch or chip gives a chance a birdie.
I really like the feel of the green and 11 tee in close proximity.
And with 12 green, also found an intentional long shot thru the green, provides a relatively straight forward chip back to most of the left and back pin positions.
To me, number ten as a par 5, is a strategic hole that I have not seen a lot, and am struggling to think of a p5 laid out similar without water on the left. A very, very good hole IMHO.
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No doubt this is a very strong par 5. I wonder if it reminded anyone else of the par five 12th at Pacific Dunes, where both have greens set off to the left and ecourage second shots played on a line well to the right of the green. It would be an interesting comparison. I'd give the edge to Pac Dunes green setting, but LF's green complex.
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The 11th tee shot asks for a drive up and over a hanging saddle, adding a bit of variety to the round. With the wind coming in from the right, trajectory control is crucial on this 405 meter par 4.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5110/5650422576_aeb20af4ce_z.jpg)
Up top, bilateral bunkers will ensnare shots over-shaped towards either side.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5142/5650422822_91b14fa634_z.jpg)
The approach is a tad downhill to a large green tilted toward the left/front corner.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5026/5650423082_4c278e9b02_z.jpg)
Reaching the green from this right fairway bunker is possible with a fortunate lie. Note the busy movement of the turf short and left of the green.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5026/5649858681_961575c07f_z.jpg)
Viewing from the right (the 12th tee) , one perceives the lack of greenside bunkering. Finding the green in two is a relatively easy task, but the ample size and tilt of the putting surface will favor those able to fire shots close to the pin from the left side of the fairway.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5221/5649858975_32ba11d7c9_z.jpg)
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The 11th is one of the best second shots in all of the 36 holes of the property.
I didn't like the tee shot much, though. I don't mind playing blind and uphill once or twice in a round to set up a downhill approach, and Bill often does just that in his routings. But I could not get oriented for the tee shot at all, even playing in a group with the architect and the owners! I hit a pretty good tee shot completely out of play to the right. Either it needs to be a bit wider up on top of the hill, or they should have cleared a bit more marram to the left and maybe added another fairway bunker to the left, to get you aimed over that way a bit more.
Just noticed in the first picture that you actually can see the end of the fairway on the right from the tee. From the more forward tee we played, I don't believe you could see any of that.
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The 11th is one of the best second shots in all of the 36 holes of the property.
I didn't like the tee shot much, though.
Tom,
Interesting that almost everyone else views it in the opposite manner.
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I agree that this is a very cool second shot, and the huge, sloping green invites a wide variety of shots. To me, it sets up beautifully for a sweeping draw that will feed nicely to center or left pin placement, but it will also receive a fade into the slope.
I know what Tom is saying about the tee shot. It is a very uncomfortable feeling on the tee because the landing area is blind, and there is much more room long left than you can see. While the actual landing area is wide enough, from the tee all you see is the trouble: hill and fronting bunker that you must carry, bunker right, and nasty marrum hill on the left. It is one of those tee shots where you have to take all of that in, then forget about and hit your normal tee shot.
First time I hooked it into the marrum on the left and unfortunately found it...took 3 or 4 whacks at it and was in my pocket. The next two times I hit good tee shots and enjoyed a nice, slightly downhill approach shots and made solid pars.
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My preferred hole out of these opening three holes on the B9, I loved the look of the tee shot from the first time I laid eyes on it, I really like the requirement of a committed tee shot, and I find a good sense of directional cues from the two sets of bunkering either side of the FW and probably in the back of my mind is the poplars in the distance assisting alignment - for me anyway - I also enjoy the challenge of playing over a centre cross bunker as a carry - great fun, particularly after a strong downhill down wind tee shot on ten.
I also thought the approach shot set up really good to a receptive green in its tilt back toward the player, but many lies will be played from and an uneven lie and probably downhill, so a tough shot, all properties have to a boundary, and this place is no different, in one of the preview threads (MM's?), there was some discussion re the tree line at the rear - Someone (Clayts?) responded that it was a good cover of the power lines at the rear and serve a purpose for the time being. I also like the monster green, which for a good player should be a birdie chance and for us less skilled multiple chances of a three putt for poorly placed approaches or chips.
And perhaps another three set of triangle holes.
Mark: I did not hear the general consensus you speak of for the approach shot on this hole - "almost everyone"?
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Sorry Bill - posted while you were posting ! :)
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My thoughts re: #10 was that it was a good tee shot and greensite though the second shot was a bit ho hum
I'm with Mark on 11 re: the approach to the green and concur with others that the tee shot is awkward to say the least. The green for mine is too big particularly given that it's unbunkered. One could have adopted the same general design philsophies with a smaller target and still have the fallaways ? Even better he could have set the green much closer to the dunes to the right ?
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Kevin,
How is a green "too big"? Why does it need a small target?
I think I have had 3 widely spaced pin positions on that green, which provides variety, ech time I play, each ave their own challenges approaching from the fairway and then attempting birdie putts - no matter how long they may be :)
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The 11th is one of the best second shots in all of the 36 holes of the property.
I didn't like the tee shot much, though. I don't mind playing blind and uphill once or twice in a round to set up a downhill approach, and Bill often does just that in his routings. But I could not get oriented for the tee shot at all, even playing in a group with the architect and the owners! I hit a pretty good tee shot completely out of play to the right. Either it needs to be a bit wider up on top of the hill, or they should have cleared a bit more marram to the left and maybe added another fairway bunker to the left, to get you aimed over that way a bit more.
Just noticed in the first picture that you actually can see the end of the fairway on the right from the tee. From the more forward tee we played, I don't believe you could see any of that.
From a man who loves RMW 4, and also created St. Andrews Beach 13, Barnbougle 18 and Kidnappers 4, that's a surprising comment Tom.
To me anyway.
I do feel you'd assess the drive differently from the back tees on your next visit, as you suggested from assessing the pictures above.
IMO, the hole works well with the prevailing wind (from the right when driving on 11).
Another clue for the good drive line on 11, from the back tee, is a straight ball aimed on the peak of the mountain visibile in the distance.
I'm pretty sure that isn't a happy coincidence.
MM
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I thought the green is what made this hole. Preferred this green to what I saw on the 13th or 16th for comparison.
This green lulls you into a false sense of security I feel.
Yet you'll be hard pressed to score well because it is tough getting it to the hole on so much surface AND subtle undulations. Must be a killer hole with some wind. I don't think the hole tilts back to front either.
Ya, the tee shot does feel a little uncomfortable, but it is rare when a drive down the middle on a blind hole doesn't work. So that was my strategy and it paid off. Agreeing with Tom it's a little narrow, but more if you chose the wrong tee. With the right tee, I saw things open up.
Question for me is does this hole tend to get a tailwind? quartering wind? headwind? I'll guess a quartering wind more.
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Kevin,
How is a green "too big"? Why does it need a small target?
I think I have had 3 widely spaced pin positions on that green, which provides variety, ech time I play, each ave their own challenges approaching from the fairway and then attempting birdie putts - no matter how long they may be :)
Brett
For mine - it just felt on a peripheral sense too manufactured and overtly big. Just my opinion of course though it surprises me that he didn't use the dunes to the right of the hole as the target area ? Why place the green where he did when there is much better land nearby ?
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Kevin,
I also thought the hole might be improved by pushing the green further right, or perhaps if they left the ground alone up to the right edge of the current green instead of turfing that area.
The wind-breaking tree lines are an eyesore, IMHO. I'd thin them out. The other trees on property have a much more weathered and ancient look to them, not to mention their less coordinated (natural) placement.
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Kevin,
The wind-breaking tree lines are an eyesore, IMHO. I'd thin them out. The other trees on property have a much more weathered and ancient look to them, not to mention their less coordinated (natural) placement.
Remove the trees? Then you would have an unobstructed view of that ugly mountain range in the distance...
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Another clue for the good drive line on 11, from the back tee, is a straight ball aimed on the peak of the mountain visibile in the distance.
I'm pretty sure that isn't a happy coincidence.
MM
Matthew:
It might just be a happy coincidence, since Mr. Coore was my partner in the match described above, and he did not tell me to aim at the mountain in the distance. [I'm not even sure we could see it from the middle tee we were playing, actually.]
I have asked Bill before about such things and he has said he doesn't worry much about lining tee shots up with long-distance views, as I try to do. However, it's possible he did it at Lost Farm, or one of his crew did it for him; he just didn't mention it to me.
Of the blind tee shots you mentioned that I've built, the 18th at Barnbougle is the only one without a clear visual of where you'd like to drive the ball -- partly because the tees were separated left and right, and the correct line for one is wrong for another. I think the Lost Farm hole had a bit of the same problem ... the tee we played was left of the line from the back tee, so you have to play further left than you think, with the dune more in your face.
Kevin:
If the green had been any further to the right, the next hole wouldn't have worked at all, and he would have had to build two holes down on the flats instead of the one long one.
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Speaking of the next hole working...get ready for another dogleg/partially blind tee shot, a combination that I really question on destination courses... (Hint, I am about to lose another golf ball after a superbly struck tee shot :) )
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The 516 meters-long 12th hole marks the last inland test before we plunge back into the dunes. Prevailing winds are with the player from the tee.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5105/5649899243_2113981fb9_z.jpg)
The fairway is spacious, turning left past a large port-side bunker.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5064/5649899511_3b915a375f_z.jpg)
Over-aggression will exact a just penalty.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5262/5650464320_8bb675df79_z.jpg)
Round the bend, staggered central bunkers and an expansive waste area along the right edge add interest to the second shot for those unable to reach the green.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5224/5649899995_68fe030e58_z.jpg)
In the waste bunker, one may find grasses, shells or pebbles around their ball. Still, one still has a chance of finding the green with a single stroke.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5310/5649900279_8cf65d0805_z.jpg)
The 12th green is very low in profile. Players may elect to play long, left or short of the green with their approach to leave a simple up and down. This bunker protects the right side.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5108/5650465388_193763337c_z.jpg)
Looking from behind, one can appreciate the understated shaping.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5064/5650465904_c83c8bae15_z.jpg)
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[
Over-aggression will exact a just penalty.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5262/5650464320_8bb675df79_z.jpg)
The problem I have here is that simply carrying this bunker is not good enough, there is about 30 yards of DEEP marrum grass over the bunker. My first drive flew well over the bunker, I thought it was a great line, expected to be able to reach a par 5 in two shots, but the ball was no where to be found. The proper play (for me) is the right edge of the bunker.
I know, a hole is only blind once, but...
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I'm inclined to agree, Bill.
I have an issue generally with bunkers in a position like this that are not to be carried.
You see them on the heathlands as well a fair bit - 14 at NZGC is an example - where carrying the bunker isn't enough, it;s the 30m of heath behind it.
What I will say of Kyle's pics above is that there is no way a pic can adequately indicate just how bloody wide that fairway is. In one round I aimed down the middle, wind from the left and hit the most godawful push slice I can recall hitting in my life, which caught the wind and went hard and it STILL found the fairway!
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I guess I could argue this both ways. One way is if I can't carry the ball 250 yards in the air, I have no business challenging this bunker, and it actually saves a few pulled drives from becoming lost balls in the marrum grass.
But what I'd rather see is another bunker or two over the first one, even if they are hidden and/or penal. I'll pay a price for failing to pull off a heroic shot, but a lost ball just sucks. I almost feel like the architect plyed a trick on me, the architectual version of pulling a chair out when someone sits down...
What do the rest of you guys think?
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Bill & Scott,
I understand your point, extended rough past a carry bunker is difficult to justify.
What does not appear obvious to me on the tee is that it is in fact a carry bunker, as Scott says, the fairway is MASSIVELY wide, for me, the tee shot says drive as close as you can to the bunker for the tightest, and best line for the next shot, BUT do not try to carry it - if you were to further pull it apart logically on the tee, in addition to the massive wide fairway, the fairway would be even wider behind the bunker to allow for a carry - I am not sure that this is the information being offered to the golfer on the tee. The length of the marram grass on the top lips of the bunkers is also a hint, it is long/full length from left to right about 75% and then the final right edge is trimmed and to me this is the only area of that bunker that can be carried - you had better be accurate, and Bill with your beautiful draw, it is only asking for trouble. So for me, this sounds like classic Mackenzie strategy (sans rough), where the most advantageous line is the most challenging and requires the most skill - just to the edge of the bunker or over the right edge with as much width as you need away from the troublesome bunker but extending the length of the hole. Surely the previous hole has you in this frame of mind - that anything wide of the edge bunkers is trouble and risky to carry also.
After the rumbling and large dunes of the previous stretch of holes, this lower land catchs me unaware and it is not until I am futher thru the hole, do I appreciate the break in the big undualtions, and that the bunkering is really nice and the big centreline trap - got me big time, some great pins of the right side of the green and then lovely subtle pins for good short game play on the back and left sections, and I found on my final round (I think) that playing long thru the green (to a rear left pin)took all the trouble out of play and left me with a simple up and down from the back, the front of the green is a little treacherous IMO with a little false front?
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Here is a pic from our tour guide look back toward the corner bunker: note the cut away rough behind the big bunker over the RHS and Bill there are two bunkers there, although their intentions do not appear to be the same as your suggestion.
(http://gallery.me.com/brett65/100145/KH_Lost%20Farm%2012%20pic%20of%20BM%20punch_GCA/web.jpg?ver=13038827780001)
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Kevin:
If the green had been any further to the right, the next hole wouldn't have worked at all, and he would have had to build two holes down on the flats instead of the one long one.
Tom
I beg to differ. He could have built a shorter #11 up the dune. One could still then have had a relatively easy walk to a different tee area.
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What do the rest of you guys think?
Bill
I thought #12 is an average P5 to say the least - and a real let down from the other P5's on the property. The setting of the green site is most underwhelming. One could have considered possibly using the wetlands mores or brought the green site back a bit instead ?
for mine #9 - #12 are the least impressive stretch of holes at LF. Fortunately it starts to pick up again at the 13th tee.
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I really like these three holes.
10 is a wonderful par 5. The tee shot lures you into going right towards the mound. If you are a shorter hitter like me and looking to lay up your second shot this makes positioning that second shot more difficult. For the longer hitters avoiding the mound you are inclined to look for the centre or left of the fairway to avoid the mound, consequently a lack of precision or erring left makes the second shot a more difficult proposition. A very good green.
11 Plenty of interest in the drive. Maybe my mind is playing tricks but it really reminds me of the drive on the 10th at Muirfield. Can't find a picture of it at the moment to check. Really good second shot that sets up for a wood or long iron for me. I would imagine it usually plays with a cross wind and like the large green which allows plenty of inventiveness with the chip/pitch/long putt. Helps that I holed out a pitch from ten yards off the back on the Saturday :)
12 That first picture of Kyle's is just about an exact copy of the 16th at Port Fairy. Add the ocean down the right side (not in play) of that fairway and it's an exact copy of the drive. Ample fairway to find and the cross bunkers were in just the right spot for me at least. Had to make a decision whether to go for the green with a wood or play safe with a 6 iron. A good solid hole. Maybe not in the best par 5's you'll ever play but it is holes like this that quality course are built on.
Patrick,
I like the greens on 13 and 16 for the reason that they are remarkably flat and feel like someone just ran a mower over them. When all around them are wavy movement I enjoy the change of pace and subtlety.
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One question: was anyone able to even try to get home in two?
Now throw in the wind that should be coming in head on for your second...
One of the few true 3 shotters into the green I've seen in a while. Your positioning second is pretty forgiving I think.
However ... I have a feeling the low ball player can run it in for their second.
The wind seems key on this hole.
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Bill Brightly:
You'll probably be pleased to learn that when I played with Bill Coore on opening day, he lost his tee shot on #12 in the marram on the left.
He was not trying to play over the bunker, though ... he pulled it at least 20 yards left of where he was aiming. Remarkably, it was the only ball he lost all day in a 30-MPH wind. I lost a few more than that; it was a tough day.
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Bill Brightly:
You'll probably be pleased to learn that when I played with Bill Coore on opening day, he lost his tee shot on #12 in the marram on the left.
He was not trying to play over the bunker, though ... he pulled it at least 20 yards left of where he was aiming. Remarkably, it was the only ball he lost all day in a 30-MPH wind. I lost a few more than that; it was a tough day.
Tom,
Oh yeah, that makes my day!
Brett,
I forgot about the two bunkers on the left but I bet they get very few balls due to the height of the marrum grass. I wonder what people think about the idea of removing most of the marrum and allowing those hidden bunkers to serve as a deterrent?
Patrick,
The only way to get home in two is to cut the corner, and as we can see from the pictures, this is really not an option except for the most extremely long hitters.I also think the outside right bunkers come into play for very long hitters who fly the right edge of the left bunker. All the more reason to remove the marrum around the two bunkers shown in Brettt's picture, IMO. I think it is better to entice A players to take a risk on the tee (and they will bite on a dogleg left par 5...) rather than forcing them to hit three sensible shots.
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The 13 hole is a par 4 of 382 meters running directly into the prevailing wind. Most tee shots are played diagonally into a wide, flat valley between towering (!!!) sand dunes.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5066/5656886004_cde22343db_z.jpg)
Continuing in the vein of earlier holes, the fairway here is monstrously wide. Anything else would seem silly, since the broad valley floor is so well-defined. Still, I am a bit surprised that no central bunkers were placed to break up the large expanse of fairway. Such restraint!
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5101/5656313483_40232788ec_z.jpg)
There is a sandy hazard on the inside edge of the fairway, and theoretically shots that end up near to but not within this bunker can more easily avoid the other sand pit right of the green. However, the greenside bunker is set too far from much of the playing surface to influence play on most occasions.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5023/5656313689_ea850a123f_z.jpg)
Behind the hole, golfers will quickly ascend as they march on toward the sea.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5144/5656886504_85dcbd120c_z.jpg)
Here is another view from above and behind the 13th green.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5063/5656314069_829f34f80d_z.jpg)
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The spine from back to front makes this green. One of those greens where going to the back and having a front pin to putt towards can be fun.
I liked the amphitheatre feel to the tee shot more than anything though. However, it does not really matter where you land it on the fairway ... as long as it's on the fairway.
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l320/UBeenMiniD/Barnbougle%20Lost%20Farm%203-11/DSC02803.jpg)
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I liked #13 - a nice angled drive and transition back into the dunes.
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The spine from back to front makes this green. One of those greens where going to the back and having a front pin to putt towards can be fun.
I liked the amphitheatre feel to the tee shot more than anything though. However, it does not really matter where you land it on the fairway ... as long as it's on the fairway.
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l320/UBeenMiniD/Barnbougle%20Lost%20Farm%203-11/DSC02803.jpg)
Note the Bandonesque trolleys that can be rolled directly across the greens.
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Sitting up behind the 13th, hole # “13A”exists in part because Mike Keiser was not overly enamored with the 17th hole (according to legend). It can be played from several different angles and distances, maxing out at 121 meters.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5221/5663727830_82cdeeffd2_z.jpg)
From the upper tees, one can clearly distinguish how the large green wraps around the fronting bunker.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5023/5663159871_7f338d4cde_z.jpg)
The view behind the upper tee (if you climb a few feet through the scrub), is quite spectacular. Some day, a golf course may run through the property below as well.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5025/5663728956_707013d902_z.jpg)
More sand is found behind the putting surface, for those who misjudge the wind and the change in elevation from tee-to-green.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5029/5663728184_c54c83e1f6_z.jpg)
From the lower tees, it is easier to distinguish the predominant slopes within the green’s boundaries. Generally, the right side is lower than the left and the front lower than the rear.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5185/5663160189_0cc73cee6a_z.jpg)
Many will find a shot from the front bunker easier to contend with than a chip or pitch running up and over the false front of the green.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5027/5663160459_7d5c813e75_z.jpg)
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Really cool little hole and very well photographed Kyle.
The prospect of course #3 on that land next door had me drooling too....
MM
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One of the funner putts from this course coming on the upper tier to the left of the front greenside bunker to the lower pin to the right.
And ... what a panorama!
Scott better NOT resurface my divot of a shot pic from the afternoon round...
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The view behind the upper tee (if you climb a few feet through the scrub), is quite spectacular. Some day, a golf course may run through the property below as well.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5025/5663728956_707013d902_z.jpg)
Yeah, my foursome definiitely slowed down here when we had to wait for Brett Morrissey to walk up un the dune behind the tee and route the third course...
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Yeah, my foursome definiitely slowed down here when we had to wait for Brett Morrissey to walk up un the dune behind the tee and route the third course...
There seemd to be a nice tract of land to the left of 14. Does anyone know if the reason that the flat land was used instead of this land was so that you could get a hole or two out and back to the "third course" from the Lost Farm clubhouse.
13A looks like it would fit nicely into the routing of such a course if it was ever built.
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Yeah, my foursome definiitely slowed down here when we had to wait for Brett Morrissey to walk up un the dune behind the tee and route the third course...
There seemd to be a nice tract of land to the left of 14. Does anyone know if the reason that the flat land was used instead of this land was so that you could get a hole or two out and back to the "third course" from the Lost Farm clubhouse.
13A looks like it would fit nicely into the routing of such a course if it was ever built.
Wow, that is a great point. I was wondering why such great land was left "landlocked" between the clubhouse, the flat land holes and the water. Maybe holes could play through Lost Farm to get out to the water and back as you suggest.
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I loved 13a - a tip for everyone - don't go long !!
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At 263 meters from the tips, the “14th” (15th) hole is considered a reachable downhill par 4, though it is usually played in a headwind.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5108/5663196795_127e8ecd16_z.jpg)
Predictably, driving the green should ensure the best score. Just short of the green but past the fairway bunkers lies a trough of fairway from which a simple pitch is played down the longest axis of the green. Naturally, this richly rewarded angle of attack is fraught with peril for anyone that strays just a bit to the right.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5142/5663764868_57e04eca5a_z.jpg)
Most mortals will end up left of this bunker and face an awkward wedge shot to a narrow, elevated green.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5262/5663764992_80d5cd0187_z.jpg)
Shots that finish close to the bunker will still have a reasonably forgiving approach angle…
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5189/5663197163_23d55e56cb_z.jpg)
…whereas shots that travel pin high but left (right edge of this photo) require lofted pitches from tight lies to a very narrow surface. Weak efforts from below will often grant golfers at least one more chance to try the same shot. Fortunately, a mound at the green’s back/right corner can be employed to stop the ball.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5144/5663765334_281e3d537f_z.jpg)
Here is a wider angle looking back, with the tee box near the right edge of frame.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5063/5663197689_85d64ba62e_z.jpg)
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I know Mark had issues with the marram to the right, but I absolutely loved this hole.
Totally driveable, but pay the price for failing.
Options are there and what a view from atop.
Fun green with challenging contours and the falloffs around the green make for some challenging recoveries. Some banking onto the slopes to the green can be attempted as well.
I can only imagine this thing with some wind.
It also comes at a point in the routing where it brings the barometer back way up, thus making it that much more memorable.
A wonderful short par 4 in my opinion.
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This truly is a great short par 4. Assuming you fail to drive the green (I can't reach it) there are just so many different possible shots to play, including using the back right slope to feed the ball to the pin. On Saturday I think I ran through 5 possiblities for my 30 yard approach, including putting, finally settling on the "bak slope" plan, pulled it slightly, and the ball curled all the way to the back corner of the green, leaving me a dead down hill putt.
Very cool spine running up the middle of the fairway towards the hole, the right side of which presents the best approach to the green, but this target line off the tee brings the right fairway bunker into play. A very well conceived hole.
On the 4-club wind day, I thought I'd hit a fade and let the wind bring it back, double crossed myself and yanked it left into the marrum, lost ball # 5...
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I know Mark had issues with the marram to the right
Not for me, Patrick, since I am never going to drive near the green.
As always, my thoughts are with my fellow man. I thought Scott hit a pretty good drive on Saturday morning that just missed the green, but it was never seen again.
It's a pretty good hole, and perhaps the only real highlight on the back nine. I had thought the back section was too small and contoured to use, but saw some nice shots played to it.
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.....I absolutely loved this hole.
As did I - particularly to a back pin - great use of a small shelf.
The closer one flirts with the bunker the more they see of the green. So many options available squeezed into such a small meterage.
The hole reminded me of aspects of #16 Friars Head and #17 RMW.
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The hole reminded me of aspects of #16 Friars Head and #17 RMW.
Kevin,
Good to hear you say this. I've only seen Friar' Head 16 in photos but when I was taking photos of 14 at LF from behind it struck me there was a similarity.
14 was the standout hole for me on the back 9. It would be interesting to hear how Coore chose his routing for this hole because there are so many options to route a hole when standing back on the tee - eg. a green on the dune to the left, or run a par 5 through the valley below the restuarant. In some ways the present greensite is one of the less obvious spots to the untrained eye, so plaudits for finding it and making a fantastic short par 4.
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Running between towering dunes and an arching coastline, the 178 meters-long 16th “15th” hole enjoys a setting reminiscent of the links at Cruden Bay.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5068/5663765830_2942ae85a0_z.jpg)
While much of the bunkering is placed well short of the green, with the wind coming in hard from the right it is conceivable that these traps will affect play. There is a bunker pin high/left set to protect par on calm days.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5224/5663198567_c028aba0ba_z.jpg)
Most players will contend with a large swale that runs along the front and right edges of the green. Long and left, a grassy bank will catch shots and feed them back onto the surface.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5223/5663766602_66d67060d2_z.jpg)
Recovery shots may be pressured by the thoughts of a gallery watching in the restaurant/temporary pro shop above.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5268/5663766800_3586850379_z.jpg)
Here is an early morning view looking back to the tee across the right-side swale.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5190/5663766922_33c043cf8d_z.jpg)
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The hole reminded me of aspects of #16 Friars Head
Kevin,
Good to hear you say this. I've only seen Friar' Head 16 in photos but when I was taking photos of 14 at LF from behind it struck me there was a similarity.
Matthew
I've attached a couple of photos of #16 FH for comparison.
A front on view of #16 FH - one can clearly see the fallaway to the left and trouble right. Whilst the green is much more narrower and contoured at LF the setups are somewhat similar.
(http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad65/kpallier23/FH/16b.jpg)
Here is a few from the back of #16 at FH - again one can see a right hand sided bunker up the fairway
(http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad65/kpallier23/FH/16d.jpg)
As soon as I saw #14 LF from the tee a #16 FH immediately sprang to mind.
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Wow, I've missed a lot in a couple of days.
Not to back the truck up too much, I think 14 might be the best short four on either course. Mark makes a fair point about the grass on the right, especially seeing as, if I'm not mistaken the prevailing wind here is a cross-wind from the left - ie. blowing balls towards thast hillside?
The greensite is just ace, and it was great to watch Bill working through the 1001 options he had on his second shot.
There really is a huge benefit for hugging the right, even if you can't drive the green. Anywhere between the bunker and the green gives a fantastic line in and anything down in the bowl on the left is as awkward as hell.
I'm not such a big fan of the 15th, perhaps because it's somewhat reminiscent of a hole or two on the other course.
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I think Scott summed up 14 well. A fantastic hole.
I was a little disappointed with 15. On our last round there, the four of us hit one shot over the left bunker, one shot over the right bunker, one shot in the middle of the green and one shot towards the back of the green. 3 balls finished with 1 foot of each other. the other was 1 yard away. Admitedly we were playing down wind and there would be less run into the wind.
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Wow, I've missed a lot in a couple of days.
Not to back the truck up too much, I think 14 might be the best short four on either course. Mark makes a fair point about the grass on the right, especially seeing as, if I'm not mistaken the prevailing wind here is a cross-wind from the left - ie. blowing balls towards thast hillside?
The greensite is just ace, and it was great to watch Bill working through the 1001 options he had on his second shot.
There really is a huge benefit for hugging the right, even if you can't drive the green. Anywhere between the bunker and the green gives a fantastic line in and anything down in the bowl on the left is as awkward as hell.
I'm not such a big fan of the 15th, perhaps because it's somewhat reminiscent of a hole or two on the other course.
Yeah, because even theough I hit a very long drive, I went straight down the middle of the fairway, and had to come into the green from the left. A much harder shot than yours, which was sitting beautifully on the right, just below the hole, maybe 30 meters away. By the way, very gutsy shot you hit from there Scott...was it 40 or 50 feet short of the cup?
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By the way, very gutsy shot you hit from there Scott...was it 40 or 50 feet short of the cup?
I'd forgotten about that ;D What can I say, I'm a player!
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The 16th...
Not too shabby of a par 3. Tough call to say if it's their better par 3 on the course. I'm about ready to say it is eventhough I kind of like the 6th, 13a/14 and 17th too. However, I think the intangibles can't be dismissed on this one. What an amphitheatre and view!
On the afternoon round, I was very lucky to pull off a shot that appeared destined for the dune to the left. Somehow someway it landed on the left edge then turned all the way back to then roll to the back right pin. Missed the birdie putt, but it sure was fun to stand on the tee and see it all happen. Definitely a good thrill and that makes for a good memory.
Upon approaching the green, you begin to see and realize just how much is going on. There are all kinds of ways to attack this green. Certainly from the tee, but just as much for a recovery situation. I think this is one of the better greens on the course and deserves more examination.
Get yourself stuck on the dune to the left is going to set you up for a challenging recovery ... and you have the audience as Kyle states. But what a recovery if you pull it off.
I didn't give much thought to the huge trap to the right and short of the green, but it certainly appears to hug the green when in fact it doesn't. A little deception could go a long way and I'd hate to get in there.
Then throw in the wind...
So ya ... I liked t. All the ingredients seem to be present on this one.
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The “16th” 17th hole runs straight into the prevailing wind alongside the 1st, culminating with a green site tucked around the dunes on the right.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5147/5677062022_33790cf1c8_z.jpg)
From ground level, it is harder to discern exactly what lies in store.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5261/5677062320_58877b6275_z.jpg)
In calm conditions, a long drive past these left-side bunkers is ideal.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5026/5677062562_1bddb448e6_z.jpg)
Anything short or right of this position will be blocked out by the right-hand dune.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5189/5676501733_7a34ec6aab_z.jpg)
Past the prominent fronting bunkers, one catches a glimpse of the small mounds along the green’s left edge and the larger hump at the far right corner.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5227/5677063114_b9650c8d08_z.jpg)
Looking back, the green contours appear quite benign next to the undulations that surround the putting surface.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5146/5677063624_f684888f45_z.jpg)
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Given that this is a flat piece of land, I really liked this hole. Subtle deceptions throughout. A cool sense of uneasiness about where to aim the drive, and a really neat greensite. Given the prevailing headwind, the architect has given you a way to hit a low running shot to the green, but bunkers left and right loom.Although I've never been there, I imagine this is the type of land you would see at Sand Hills.
Of course, I hit a weak block on the 4 club wind day...lost ball #6 and only two balls left in my bag...
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Given that this is a flat piece of land, I really liked this hole. Subtle deceptions throughout. A cool sense of uneasiness about where to aim the drive, and a really neat greensite. Given the prevailing headwind, the architect has given you a way to hit a low running shot to the green, but bunkers left and right loom.Although I've never been there, I imagine this is the type of land you would see at Sand Hills.
The only relatively flat hole at Sand Hills is #8. Aside from the short (May-November) season, the Sand Hills is property is unparalleled in its suitability for great golf.
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Couple of supplemental pics...
15th
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l320/UBeenMiniD/Barnbougle%20Lost%20Farm%203-11/DSC02845.jpg)
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l320/UBeenMiniD/Barnbougle%20Lost%20Farm%203-11/DSC02846.jpg)
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l320/UBeenMiniD/Barnbougle%20Lost%20Farm%203-11/DSC02849.jpg)
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l320/UBeenMiniD/Barnbougle%20Lost%20Farm%203-11/DSC02851.jpg)
16th
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l320/UBeenMiniD/Barnbougle%20Lost%20Farm%203-11/DSC02867.jpg)
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l320/UBeenMiniD/Barnbougle%20Lost%20Farm%203-11/DSC02868.jpg)
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l320/UBeenMiniD/Barnbougle%20Lost%20Farm%203-11/DSC02871.jpg)
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The 16th was the most hotly debated hole of the weekend. It will be interesting to see if that debate continues here.
I really liked the hole. I think Coore did really well with the most uninteresting piece of land on the two properties. If this hole was found on a Scottish links I don't think there'd be such debate as to its quality. But I suppose the division among the guys is a measure of how good the courses are at Bridport.
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Haven't chimed in for a bit, so forgive me my backtracking.
13 - loved the amphitheater setting of the green and the way you feel like you're turning a corner and heading back into the dunes. Key to me was to avoid getting blocked out to the right, thus lengthening a hole that plays into a wind tunnel. I thought the wide fairway gave you plenty of room for error, but the hole rewarded anyone that could manage a drive hugging the left side. The ability to run a ball onto the green fit a hole where you might have a long club in your hand on the approach.
13a - wasn't very enamored with this hole and thought it disrupted the flow from 13 to 14. Great green, but the walk back to the tees tainted my view of this little par 3 and how it fit into the course.
14 - maybe my favorite hole on the properties. Everyone needs to play this one into a stiff breeze, as the ability to take it on the direct line to the green is no longer an option (even my lilliputian drive cleared the right bunker on Saturday). Thought the raised green and the various bumps and backstops surrounding it made for interesting decisions on what club to pull and what line to play to get any kind of benefit on a slight miss. Watched Sean Walsh run a ball perfectly up the back slope and feed back to the pin on Thursday.
15 - again, another hole that shows its teeth when the prevailing wind is up. I hit driver here and on 17 on Thursday. I thought the left side pin was a lot harder to find than the back right pin we had on Saturday.
16 - Bill Brightly has it right in the sense of unease created on the tee. You know the play is as far left as you can get, but with the wind most likely in your face, many will opt for the safety of the right side. Too bad, because now you've created a blind shot over the bunkers (still doable, as my opponent proved Saturday morning), but I'd much rather have a look from the left where I am playing through the opening to the green with a sight line to the pin. As mentioned earlier, there's a subtle cant to this green even though it looks almost completely flat. I think the mound on the back right creates an optical illusion of some kind making most think the green runs the opposite of the front left to back right slope that is present.
Looking forward to the last two holes, and to reading the subplot of this thread (aka Bill Brightly and the disappearing Titleists).
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I could not get over the complete FLATNESS of the 16th green. Patrick has some good pics showing this in reply# 170. The only thing differentiating it from a giant snooker table is the little hump at the very back center of the green. I absolutelty smashed my drive down the left center and had a 3/4 wedge in. Thought I hit a really good approach only to find I was a good 30-40 feet short. I swear the putt did not break more than a half-inch.
I left the green wondering why on earth would they build such a completely flat green - it had to be on purpose. It did make my wedge shot very difficult to gauge as the relative "nothingness" of the greensite made it difficult to determine how deep the green was. Perhaps this was the intent??
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I could not get over the complete FLATNESS of the 16th green. Patrick has some good pics showing this in reply# 170. The only thing differentiating it from a giant snooker table is the little hump at the very back center of the green. I absolutelty smashed my drive down the left center and had a 3/4 wedge in. Thought I hit a really good approach only to find I was a good 30-40 feet short. I swear the putt did not break more than a half-inch.
I left the green wondering why on earth would they build such a completely flat green - it had to be on purpose. It did make my wedge shot very difficult to gauge as the relative "nothingness" of the greensite made it difficult to determine how deep the green was. Perhaps this was the intent??
Scott,
The more I thought about it after our round, the more I thought this hole absolutely needs wind. I'm convinced that's absolutely critical. At least to make it a little more interesting. I have to also remind myself about the "resort" intention.
Otherwise, it's simply a break in the action to give you a breather before finishing off. Not a bad thing, but I already felt like I had my "break" earlier on this back nine.
It's also about the routing and it's sequence I feel.
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Scott,
The few times I have played the 16th it has been in a big wind ( the same day we hit 4 irons to the 4th and 3 irons to the 2nd) and the green is barely reachable.
It takes a good drive to carry the bunker - and clearly there is a big advantage driving as far left as possible so you can see the green with the approach.
When the hole plays into the prevailing wind it would seen a quite flat green would be perfectly sensible.
I thought it was a tremendous hole - really interesting to play and there is so much fairway to the left.
Patrick,
The hole is not a breather hole into a big wind - quite the opposite really.
Did anyone look at playing the 3rd off the 17th tee?
Into the wind it looked crazy hard - but on a still day it looks like it would be really fun.
Also playing up to the 4th green from the 6th tee look like it would be an amazing hole. It just needs a calm day and a not so busy field.
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Did anyone look at playing the 3rd off the 17th tee?
Into the wind it looked crazy hard - but on a still day it looks like it would be really fun.
Also playing up to the 4th green from the 6th tee look like it would be an amazing hole. It just needs a calm day and a not so busy field.
And 17th green from the 2nd tee
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I left the green wondering why on earth would they build such a completely flat green - it had to be on purpose. It did make my wedge shot very difficult to gauge as the relative "nothingness" of the greensite made it difficult to determine how deep the green was. Perhaps this was the intent??
Scott
Again - l think the hole could have been improved with a greensite closer to or in the dunes.
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The “17th” 18th hole is an uphill par 3 of 167 meters playing toward the sea. The prevailing wind is in from the left.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5229/5677095634_37f35194b0_z.jpg)
Bunkers and a steep false front are set to punish under-clubbed or weakly struck strokes. The third hole is seen to the left.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5183/5677095988_4a02b5fdab_z.jpg)
The view from the right reveals how heavily the green is canted towards the tee box. Over-clubbed shots may bore straight through a head wind and be lost in the bush.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5102/5676535549_9303abf2d8_z.jpg)
While teeing off on #3, players can peek up the hill for a rough impression of the day’s “17th” hole location.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5141/5676535929_8bbfa29f36_z.jpg)
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If I have the story correct, this is the hole that Mike Keiser thought was too hard for most players, so he prompted Bill Coore to find another hole, which turned out to be 13 (A) the previous short par 3.
I thought this is an excellent par 3 for A players, but bad misses are double bogies or worse. To my eye, the best bet is to play for the small piece of fairway short right of the green and let the ball feed to the green, especially with the front pin location that we had. In the 4 club wind day, I hit a tired push right that the wind just laughed at, and I failed to clear the large dune on the right. For those who are following my travails, lost ball #7, only one titleist left in the bag... This is one dune that I think they need to cut down the grass/heatheron the back side of the dune because SO MANY golfers are going to end up there, even crappy 3 handicaps like me.
On the day without wind I overcooked a planned draw and was in the scrub left of the green, another double. To me, this is a hole where you either hit the green (or a bunker) or you are dead, so Keiser may have a point.
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I didn't mind the 17th - plenty of room short and whilst it could probably do with a bit of grass clearing right and left it's good to see an uphill P3.
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I didn't mind the 17th - plenty of room short and whilst it could probably do with a bit of grass clearing right and left it's good to see an uphill P3.
I'm a big fan of uphill par 3s myself. Unfortunately, this one kicked my teeth in on both occasions and I did not get a chance to examine it more closely. It certainly frames nicely off the tee.
I think the timeliness of this par 3 is good as well. I find this par 3 does a good job as a connecting hole while allowing for another change in direction for the upcoming 18th.
A few more pics:
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l320/UBeenMiniD/Barnbougle%20Lost%20Farm%203-11/DSC02875.jpg)
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l320/UBeenMiniD/Barnbougle%20Lost%20Farm%203-11/DSC02903.jpg)
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l320/UBeenMiniD/Barnbougle%20Lost%20Farm%203-11/DSC02905.jpg)
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The 19th hole, known as “18,” plays downhill, with the wind, and along the shoreline for 420 meters. The Lost Farm restaurant is atop the tallest dune with the soon-to-be-opened pro shop off to the right. A well-stuck drive here should secure the match for anyone with a steady game.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5267/5677097116_34c466e65d_z.jpg)
While it will certainly exact some penalty, this right-side fairway bunker offers better lies than the veritable jungle on the opposite side of the fairway.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5062/5677097496_3166758816_z.jpg)
Another bunker reaches into the line of charm from the left just where one might wish to play a recovery shot after a botched drive.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5147/5677097864_8a875f677f_z.jpg)
Looking back from behind, one can distinguish the pronounced left-to-right slope of the fairway and green surrounds (with respect to the direction of play).
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5145/5676537243_5f7d8cc4a0_z.jpg)
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How did this hole play? I tried it three times and hit all three drives into the fescue on the right. For the life of me, I could just not force myself to hit it left where I knew (the last two times) that there was plenty of fairway. The last time I did stay in the cut down portion of the fescue, so kudos to LF for realizing that they needed to soften the course in places. And in the 4-club wind day, I hit a shot DEEP right, lost ball #8, out of ammo , made the long walk back to the clubhouse, too annoyed to beg for a ball :) a beaten man!
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Good finishing hole. Decent drive, but it's the approach and green surrounds that do it for me.
I appreciated all that recovery area to the right and I'll guess it comes in really handy on a windy day off the ocean. The ridge at the green that cuts somewhat across from left to right feels like a hazard in itself when approaching from the right. Less false front in feeling.
I did not attempt the shot, but it looks like a fun one to come in with a knockdown from left to right onto the green. The shoulder to the green from the left looks rather receptive. Did anyone try that out?
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It took me 3 rounds at this hole before I could commit to hitting it far enough left of the green on approach. I would like to submit that a golfer can hit hit it twice as far left than it appears from the fairway. I.e. Well left of the green.
I believe I probably landed my long club a green width wide of the green, which duly fed down to a rear middle pin and I felt like the nut was cracked - one of my preferred green complexes on the course. Pity about the long uphill walk ahead.
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The last time I did stay in the cut down portion of the fescue, so kudos to LF for realizing that they needed to soften the course in places.
Bill
I concur - I thought it was a good move on their behalf. I liked the finishing hole - plenty of interest on the drive and an elongated green to boot.
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The last time I did stay in the cut down portion of the fescue, so kudos to LF for realizing that they needed to soften the course in places.
Bill
I concur - I thought it was a good move on their behalf. I liked the finishing hole - plenty of interest on the drive and an elongated green to boot.
Kevin,
It is good, but it is not the final finishing hole. ;)
Brett,
Thank you for that illuminating post. Sadly, I never managed to put myself in position for any sort of conventional approach shot on this hole...
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Here's a pic that shows just how much to the left of the green is open as pointed out.
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l320/UBeenMiniD/Barnbougle%20Lost%20Farm%203-11/DSC02919.jpg)
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sorry to have missed the chances to post on some of these last few holes - they are an enjoyable bunch close to the beach.
I really enjoy the closing stretch from 13 thru to 18 - my only real issue and thing I wanted to comment on was 13A, I think this was a error by the owners/designers, although a nice par 3, there is already a short par 3 at #4, and it only serves to interrupt what would have otherwise been a really interesting routing of holes. (I have no issue with the actual number of holes being more than 18)
...after the long 12th, and then a wide tee shot to narrowing fairway and green site of 13, as you climb this ridge line, I then felt like I had been pulled up to break the round, pulled aside to let a fast group thru - they may as well built a half way station here (Old Mac), to stop and have a cold beer and a hot pie, etc - you then get to 'resume' your round with the fantastic 14th, and on thru 15, 16, 17 & 18 - I think that it may one day become the LF turf nursery, or a green site for third course.
it is a novelty in the worst sense of the word as it does not count and the general consensus of the groups i have played with was that it should not count toward the score in our comp or match.
Witness Kyle's need to place in brackets the actual hole that he is reviewing – this is just plain confusing.
So for me, 13 thru 18 (sans 13A) offers a great variety of tee shots and lengths, although a draw seems the most beneficial tee shot on all but 14, with placement an important goal, a reasonably strong change of directions to make the most of the coastal conditions - each of these tee shots is then followed by interesting 2nd shots to again good sized green complexes although lightly bunkered, with both 16 & 18 being bunker-less (3.5 on the back nine)– an interesting and to me perhaps unusual close to a routing.
Kyle, I know it is not the finish – but it is the finish it should have.
Overall a magnificent addition to Australia’s golfing landscape – lucky are we.
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Spanning the main path down from the “Lost Farm Village,” the last offering (18A) is a par 3 of just 119 meters.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5183/5677098598_b00c077bf1_z.jpg)
A left-to-right slope dominates this hole in its entirety, with bunkers protecting the high/left side and short grass along the front and right to pull shots away from the putting surface. Winds will usually be from behind/right and a birdie or better may be needed to settle close matches.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5306/5677099086_5d65d6306e_z.jpg)
Conveniently, the 1st tee is just behind the green… and after all, it would be a shame not to play more than 20 holes-a-day after making the long trek to Tasmania.
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Kyle,
a pretty little shelf type green, it was suggested to me that a good way to make the walk up the hill less tiresome was to perhaps put a golf hole up it. good fun to putt on.
:)
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Brett M:
it is a novelty in the worst sense of the word as it does not count and the general consensus of the groups i have played with was that it should not count toward the score in our comp or match.
There was an amusing exchange in our group in the AM as we walked from 13 to 13a.
Player 1: So what do you reckon, will we include the two spare holes in our match?
Player 2: I don't think we should, but I should probably point out that if we decide not to, you just lost 6&5 at the last hole.
Player 1: In that case, I think we should definitely include them!
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nice - well those two holes are good for something, I hope you were able to pull that man with THAT golf swing back from the depths to halve the match???
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The match in question was a very hungover D. Knight vs a spritely and well-slept S. Warren. I won't say who was on which side of the result!
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Kevin,
It is good, but it is not the final finishing hole. ;)
True Kyle but it should be 8)
18a is probably the worst P3 I've seen from Coore - it's just a hole. I reckon it will be a chipping or putting green in due course.
Thanks for your photo tours of BD & LF - great pics - and hopefully those on GCA can see that they are well worth the trip to get too.
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13a and 18a are not part of the "course." Here is why.
a. 13a and 18a are designated as such, not as 14 and 20.
b. They are both slightly out of character with the rest of course, 13a breaking up the flow of the back 9 and 18a just feeling off.
c. 4 is a better short par 3 than either.
d. 18 is a great match play closing hole. 18a is not.
e. 18a doesn't even show up in this video tour, I'm not even sure if it actually exists: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSoKGZdSo-c
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I find criticism of 13a and 18a a little puzzling.
13a is a good hole to my way of thinking. If some thought of it as a distraction, well, they can just walk from 13 to 14 and leave it alone! Be it a match, or a social round. Most visitors will be playing social rounds so the thought of an extra hole isn't too incongruous. It will also serve an important role in the event one of the other holes is out of play with a green being re-laid etc.
18a is simply a way to pass the time walking back to the clubhouse, and should be viewed as nothing more. I'm not sure Mr. Coore expected it to be anything more than that.
MM
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Matt
I have stated my issues with 13a in particular, and agree it is a good hole. Making justifications for it because of the spare hole argument seems a little light on, seeing they have 18a as well, which would be better suited for this purpose being at the end of the round? I love the place, and find it difficult to ever pass up a golf hole, in my first 7 or 8 rounds, I think we skipped 13a twice - that is crazy, but that is the reality of the hole and its position in the round. The other course has not needed a spare hole, but of course a spare can have merit, especially on this type of course that must maintain best possible conditions for paying customers, if TD recommended changes that were interruptive he may face a challenge to get approval...
Do you think it adds to the routing? Do you think you would miss it if it wasn't there?
Do you think it is a better course with it or without it?
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I find criticism of 13a and 18a a little puzzling.
13a is a good hole to my way of thinking. If some thought of it as a distraction, well, they can just walk from 13 to 14 and leave it alone! Be it a match, or a social round. Most visitors will be playing social rounds so the thought of an extra hole isn't too incongruous. It will also serve an important role in the event one of the other holes is out of play with a green being re-laid etc.
MM
The only issue I have with 13a is the access to the left of the 13th green. They should just block that route off and make one go around the back right. A longer walk maybe but it would flow better in my mind at least from a routing POV.
18a is simply a way to pass the time walking back to the clubhouse, and should be viewed as nothing more. I'm not sure Mr. Coore expected it to be anything more than that.
Then why build it in the first place ?
If it's not going to add any particular value other than that and is a drop down in significant quality from the rest of the holes then that alone begs the Q as to it's need. SAB has a bit of a walk uphill from the 18th green back to the clubhouse and Doak didn't see the need to put another hole in there ?
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In the future, I'll probably still play 13a, but not 18a.
The problem with the "you can always skip it" argument re: 13a is that if the group in front plays it, you're screwed. You likely won't have quite enough time to go past them and get clear, so you're stuck sitting around. And if you are just going to sit around, you may as well play it.
At least with 18a if you decide against playing it, you're done, so it doesn't matter.
13a was my favourite one-shotter on the back nine, so I think it's a pity it doesn't really fit.
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Do you think it adds to the routing? Do you think you would miss it if it wasn't there?
Brett, you raise some good points - as usual. I think the hole does add to the routing. Now having played it, I'd miss it if the hole were no longer there. I accept most wouldn't.
If it's not going to add any particular value other than that and is a drop down in significant quality from the rest of the holes then that alone begs the Q as to it's need. SAB has a bit of a walk uphill from the 18th green back to the clubhouse and Doak didn't see the need to put another hole in there ?
Kevin, St. A Beach are lucky to have 18 - never mind building extras!
MM
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Judging by the size of the teeing ground, Bill Coore didn't expect everyone to play 18a. It would be a tiny tee for a long par 5 where driver is used. It is miniscule when it comes th wedge/9-iron divots and recovery, and is located in a shade area so regrowth will be slow.
I think 18a gets more discussion than it deserves or was intended to get. It is a distraction to a great facility - you only need it for a tie-breaker. Nothing else.
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Stumbling through Google Maps, and found this. How would you route a course on this property?
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/JamesBennett/barnbougle/LostFarmbefore.jpg)
James B