Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Trey Kemp on April 04, 2011, 01:45:52 PM
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The 2011 List came out Sunday, here is the top 50. The rest can be seen at sportsdaydfw.com.
1. Whispering Pines Golf Club - Chet William/Nicklaus Design Group
2. Dallas National Golf Club - Tom Fazio
3. Colonial Country Club - Perry Maxwell, Ralpy Plummer & John Bredemus
4. Preston Trail Golf Club - Byron Nelson & Ralph Plummer
5. Carlton Woods, Nicklaus Course - Jack Nicklaus
6. Cordillera Ranch - Jack Nicklaus
7. Vaquero - Tom Fazio
8. Brook Hollow Golf Club - A.W. Tillinghast
9. Escondido - Tom Fazio
10. Boot Ranch - Hal Sutton
11. Miramont Country Club - Robert Trent Jones Jr.
12. Carlton Woods, Fazio Course - Tom Fazio
13. Champions Golf Club, Cypress Course - Ralph Plummer
14. Austin Golf Club - Bill Coore & Ben Crenshaw
15. Austin Country Club - Pete Dye
16. Shady Oaks Country Club - Robert Trent Jones Sr.
17. Lochinvar Golf Club - Jack Nicklaus
18. Houston Country Club - Robert Trent Jones Sr.
19. Shadow Hawk Golf Club - Rees Jones
20. Barton Creek Resort, Fazio Foothills - Tom Fazio
21. Briggs Ranch Golf Club - Tom Fazio
22. TPC Craig Ranch - Tom Weiskopf
23. Pine Dunes Resort - Jay Morrish
24. Champions Golf Club, Jackrabbit Course - George Fazio
25. Redstone Golf Club, Members Course - Peter Jacobsen & Jim Hardy
26. Northwood Club - William Diddel
27. Redstone Golf Club, Tournament Course - Rees Jones
28. River Oaks Country Club - Donald Ross
29. Crown Colony Country Club - Robert von Hagge & Bruce Devlin
30. Walden on Lake Conroe - Robert von Hagge & Bruce Devlin
31. Royal Oaks Country Club - Houston - Brian Curley & Fred Couples
32. Lakeside Country Club - Ralph Plummer
33. The Woodlands CC, Tournament Course - Robert von Hagge & Bruce Devlin
34. TPC San Antonio, AT&T Oaks Course - Greg Norman
35. Royal Oaks Country Club - Dallas - Billy Martindale & Don January
36. Barton Creek Resort, Fazio Canyons - Tom Fazio
37. Dallas Athletic Club, Blue Course - Ralph Plummer
38. Honors Club of Dallas - Ralph Plummer
39. Stonebridge Ranch CC, Dye Course - Pete Dye
40. Horseshoe Bay Resort, Ram Rock - Robert Trent Jones Sr.
41. Oak Hills Country Club - A.W. Tillinghast
42. Cimarron Hills Golf & Country Club - Jack Nicklaus
43. The Hills CC, Hills Course - Jack Nicklaus
44. TPC San Antonio, AT&T Canyons - Pete Dye
45. Comanche Trace - Tome Kite, Roy Bechtol & Randy Russell
46. Gentle Creek Golf Club - D.A. Weibring & Steve Wolfard
47. Lakewood Country Club - Tom Bendelow
48. BraeBurn Country Club - John Bredemus
49. Midland Country Club - Ralph Plummer
50. TPC Four Seasons Resort - Las Colinas - Jay Morrish & Byron Nelson
FYI - The Rawls Course made the list at #54.
Out of the Top 50 theses Architects had the most courses (original design):
Ralph Plummer - 7
Tom Fazio - 7
Jack Nicklaus/Nicklaus Design - 6
Pete Dye - 3
Robert Trent Jones Sr. - 3
Robert von Hagge - 3
Bruce Devlin - 3
A.W. Tillinghast - 2
Jay Morrish - 2
John Bredemus - 2
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Also a nice feature on Whispering Pines in Golf Magazine this month.
Aved number one ranking again..it is avery special place....anybody know if it is on Golf Digest's list at all?
Of course their raters would have to bother going there first, without multiple enticements.....
A better course than a newcomer to its top twenty ;)
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Also a nice feature on Whispering Pines in Golf Magazine this month.
Aved number one ranking again..it is avery special place....anybody know if it is on Golf Digest's list at all?
Of course their raters would have to bother going there first, without multiple enticements.....
A better course than a newcomer to its top twenty ;)
It's not on the Golf Digest list. Probably not enough visits as you say.
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Congrats to Michael Dieckhoff, the super at Whispering Pines. Best I've ever seen in the business. That's now, what, six in a row for WP?
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what happened to the course by Austin Golf Club,Spanish Oaks or something like that?
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what happened to the course by Austin Golf Club,Spanish Oaks or something like that?
Mike,
Unfortunately I don't think they're open for play at this point.
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Kyle,
What has happened at Spanish Oaks??
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The club has been closed since last March, not sure if they will reopen.
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Wasn´t boot ranch number two last year...now number ten?? They seem to change a lot from year to year...anybody got any ideas why???? Jeff, any insight???
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Where is Mike's Wolf Wolf?
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Randy, I don't know why it isn't ranked higher. I personally thought it should be higher ranked than 10. Did Hal Sutton really design the course?
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Boot Ranch probably won't be open next year either.
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Where is Mike's Wolf Wolf?
Wolf Point is terrific but not a lot of visitors.
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Randy, I don't know why it isn't ranked higher. I personally thought it should be higher ranked than 10. Did Hal Sutton really design the course?
apparently from what I understand Halimony did what most did and hired somebody that likes to work and doesn´t care about credit. He must have been talented becasue look at the compitition in Texas..lots of big names and that came out #2 last year...I was impressed without even seeing it!!
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Boot Ranch..not open next year?
I knew they had finacial problems, but are they that bad?
Great layout...decerved top ten placement IMO
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Boot Ranch..not open next year?
I knew they had finacial problems, but are they that bad?
Great layout...decerved top ten placement IMO
Lots of money problems.
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It is my understanding that Spanish Oaks is closed pending negotiations with the original developer who made a successful bid to the bank owner. My source, who works with the management company taking care of the course in the interim, stated that they were doing only enough maintenance to protect the asset (cutting the grass occasionally, watering as needed, I assume). Apparently, there are back-up offers should the accepted bid not pan out.
Boot Ranch is a Jim Lipe design.
http://www.asgca.org/member-spotlight/265-asgca-member-spotlight-jim-lip
I don't recall if it was through correspondence with Jim or from talking with the club's management, but I got the impression that Hal Sutton had considerable design input, though it may have been more in setting what I call top-side goals and objectives. If memory serves, Hal wanted an Augusta National type setting and feeling in Texas' Hill Country, only with green complexes that would allow its members to make well-executed putts. It is an outstanding course in a great place to visit and I sincerely hope the lender can work-out the financial issues.
Finally, in my opinion, Wolf Point would be highly regarded in the DMN list if it had been seen my enough raters. However, I'm not sure where it would place due to its reliance on heavily contoured playing areas, particularly the green complexes, and wind as its major challenges. Its similarity to The Old Course might elicit similar responses.
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Thanks Lou, it all make sence now on how Hal came out so strong with what I had heard was his first. So maybe the sharp decrease from number two to number ten is due to some decline in maintenance practices??? Maybe Jim will give us his two cents.
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I know of only one DMN rater that visited and he was asked not to submit any review. :)
But we did have fun.
I appreciate your comment about its similarity to the Old Course
Thank you very much
I disagree with the reliance part - as it doesn't rely on anything - as it wasn't meant to have major challenges.
Def. of Rely: To be dependent for support, help, or supply.
It was meant to be interesting and fun - it had no other goals.
It is only dependent on someone playing.
Cheers
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Nae golfers, nae golf...huh, Mike?
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I appreciate your comment about its similarity to the Old Course
Thank you very much
Mike, I have noted the similarity in feeling to the Old Course several times, particularly for the way subtle contours around the greens can affect how the ground game works out.
My question: how much time did you spend walking and/or playing the original Old Course to be able to capture that essence?
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I disagree with the reliance part - as it doesn't rely on anything - as it wasn't meant to have major challenges.
Def. of Rely: To be dependent for support, help, or supply.
It was meant to be interesting and fun - it had no other goals.
It is only dependent on someone playing.
Cheers
My apologies for, perhaps, using the wrong term. Without getting too philosophical, I am a creature of habit and consider challenge to be an integral part of "interest" and "fun". If reliance connotes something negative to you and others, from my standpoint, the primary challenge at Wolf Point come from the all the rolls you and Don created in combination with the wind. The creeks and the lake also have impact, but if you left the playing areas flat as you found them and without wind, these would not add much to the "interest" or the "fun".
It should be noted that I speak only for myself, and not at all for the DMN. I have been known to make a mistake now and then, as others have not so infrequently reminded me.
Randy,
I haven't been to Boot Ranch for awhile. It is my understanding that the course shot up in the rankings after it held an important state event and the participants really liked the course. The routing is not very "tight"- it would be a hard course to walk- but it has great balance, lots of variety, and if one can put a good stroke on the line shown by the caddie, it will be a great day on the greens. I think that the course works very well in line with Hal's objectives (but not so much with regards to the financial structure, apparently).
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LOU!!
No need for an apology.
You can say you rely on anything you want.
Just not the golf course. :)
Bill
I visited The Old Course during construction - and I can only point to one direct impact to Wolf Point - on the 9th hole.
Don has probably spent more time there than I - although I did play it backwards... :)
I was working with our non-golf shaper on the first green - it was the first green to get to that stage (before visiting TOC).
We did our stuff
Don came by
I told him I liked it
Don said - "that's it?"
I said "yea"
He said "great"
We both went on from there - mostly more sometimes less
I didn't think it was a big deal at the time
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Randy,
Interesting that you think a drop from 2 to 10 is "sharp." I don't think so in a general sense.
The system is a bit different, too. We are only allowed to rank 3 courses as tens (one of the top three courses in TX) and maybe 5 each for 9.5, 9, etc. It is actually very hard to make the top 3 courses.
Also, the panel is less than 200 strong and the averages tend to lump stuff together. It seems it would only take a few of those panelists who obviously gave it a ten to reduce it to 9 or less because of conditions to drop it to 10th overall.
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Boot Ranch..not open next year?
I knew they had finacial problems, but are they that bad?
Great layout...decerved top ten placement IMO
Lots of money problems.
Even if the original equity washed out, a $30 MM clubhouse can't help the long term fortunes of the club. The initiation is still $100k which blows my mind. Dues are no bargain either at $1k/month.
http://www.mysanantonio.com/business/article/Revamped-Boot-Ranch-kicking-up-heels-1259377.php
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Boot Ranch was once owned (briefly) by the same guy as Diamante here in Cabo and after Lehman's demise he had to walk from 2 or 3 developments in the US and focus on Diamante alone.
Additionally Boot Ranch may be 2 or it may be 10 but it is 100% Jim Lipe though Jim would likely take the high road and give Sutton some credit... due or not.
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Randy,
Interesting that you think a drop from 2 to 10 is "sharp." I don't think so in a general sense.
The system is a bit different, too. We are only allowed to rank 3 courses as tens (one of the top three courses in TX) and maybe 5 each for 9.5, 9, etc. It is actually very hard to make the top 3 courses.
Also, the panel is less than 200 strong and the averages tend to lump stuff together. It seems it would only take a few of those panelists who obviously gave it a ten to reduce it to 9 or less because of conditions to drop it to 10th overall.
Thats the info I was looking for, now that makes sence. Thanks! Is the 200 list public where new clubs could send out invitation for free golf to the raters and follow up with a steak dinner and maybe some bull balls?? LOL
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Boot Ranch was once owned (briefly) by the same guy as Diamante here in Cabo and after Lehman's demise he had to walk from 2 or 3 developments in the US and focus on Diamante alone.
Additionally Boot Ranch may be 2 or it may be 10 but it is 100% Jim Lipe though Jim would likely take the high road and give Sutton some credit... due or not.
I feel all pro branding names deserve some credit..so lets give 99.9 to Jim and for the benifit of the doubt... .1 percent to HAL! All those in favor say...I, I
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Boot Ranch was once owned (briefly) by the same guy as Diamante here in Cabo and after Lehman's demise he had to walk from 2 or 3 developments in the US and focus on Diamante alone.
Additionally Boot Ranch may be 2 or it may be 10 but it is 100% Jim Lipe though Jim would likely take the high road and give Sutton some credit... due or not.
I feel all pro branding names deserve some credit..so lets give 99.9 to Jim and for the benifit of the doubt... .1 percent to HAL! All those in favor say...I, I
Can't do it. Jim deerves to be in the limelight for some of the great work he has done over the years. Taking a back seat to Jack is one thing but Sutton?
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Wasn´t boot ranch number two last year...now number ten?? They seem to change a lot from year to year...anybody got any ideas why???? Jeff, any insight???
I should have caught the error earlier, but I've been informed that Boot Ranch was rated # 8 in last year's DMN's list, and #3 in the prior two years. Changes in the list can be the result of a number of things including new courses, renovations, changes in financial conditions affecting operations, more rater input, etc. I would not bet against Boot Ranch in the future. I also await the re-opening of Spanish Oaks, which, I think, has a chance to compete among Texas's top courses.
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Spanish Oaks is probably a top 20 course, of course I wouldn't put the #5 course in my top 20. Does anyone have the entire list of 100?
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Sam ,I have the entire list but not the energy to post it.
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Lou, et al:
How does a place like Whispering Pines -- which is consistently rated #1 by the Dallas Morning News not get rated AT ALL for any top 100 position -- even when Dallas National and Colonial, are both rated ?
Are the national raters just THAT blind or what ?
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On a recent trip to Austin, the only course I was able to play was the University of Texas Golf Club, designed by Bechtol/Russell. I had a great time with my host, but was not blown away by the course. Any opinions?
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Kirk:
That begs the question -- what were you expecting ?
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maybe from a national rating perspective it is just not easy to get to Whispering.Maybe being closed in the summer hurts how many people see it.Difficult to see anyone putting Dallas National in same league as WP.
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Mike:
You didn't answer the question directly -- how can DN and Colonial be rated that far ahead of WP in the national golf mags but when the state pub like Dallas Morning News weighs in -- WP commands the top position. Are the national raters really that far out of touch when compared to the folks within the Lone Star State ?
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Matt,
As Mike mentioned Whispering Pines has a limited playing season, and I believe getting enough raters there has probably been an issue in the past. However, it is moving up the Golfweek Modern ratings with a bullet. It looks like the course was finally rated by enough people to qualify by 2010 as it appeared on that list at #45. It moved up to #32 on the 2011 Best Modern list.
I haven't played it yet, but hope to get out there this year. I believe I like Dallas National a bit more than Mike, but certainly many down here view Whispering Pines the better track.
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Evidently.The Dallas News panel is represented by several here who could better answer this.Some of the national publications put Dallas National pretty high.I think finding a hill in Dallas overwhelms their senses.
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Greg,I like Dallas National a lot and find the whole set punt be a lot of fun.It is a top course,but to me it is not a Whispering Pines or Brook Hollow.It probably is better compared to the hill country courses.
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Matt et al...
I think with Dallas Ntaional and the likes of GDigest you have a situation similar to that with The Alotian..alot of high dollar high profile ,members who take raters as guests etc....as such it gets more exposure, plus simply easier to get to and thus more rating opportinities.
But as a golf course there is no doubt Whispering is a top 50 in the NATION golf course and will get there over time.
As such its national recognition is not quite there yet...similar to Rock Creek perhaps in that it suffers from location rather than content on a national basis.
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Sam, here is the rest of the list.
51. The Houstonian Golf & CC - Richmond
52. Mira Vista Country Club - Fort Worth
53. Bent Tree Country Club - Dallas
54. The Rawls Course - Lubbock
55. Dallas Country Club - Dallas
56. Traditions Club at Texas A&M - Bryan
57. Deerwood Country Club - Kingwood
58. The Tribute - The Colony
59. Horseshoe Bay Resort, Applerock - Horseshoe Bay
60. Dallas Athletic Club, Gold Course - Dallas
61. Stonebriar CC, Country Club Course - Frisco
62. Memorial Park Golf Course - Houston
63. Riverhill Country Club - Kerrville
64. Stonebriar Resort, Fazio Course - Frisco
65. Bentwater Country Club, Miller Course - Lake Conroe
66. Horseshoe Bay Resort, Slick Rock - Horseshoe Bay
67. Golf Club of Texas - San Antonio
68. Cowboys Golf Club - Grapevine
69. Texas Star Golf Club - Euless
70. Lubbock Country Club - Lubbock
71. Blackhorse Golf Club, North Course - Cypress
72. Barton Creek, Palmer Course - Spicewood
73. Resort Course at La Cantera - San Antonio
74. Lantana Golf Club - Lantana
75. University of Texas Golf Club - Austin
76. The Cascades - Tyler
77. Augusta Pines Golf Club - Spring
78. The Woodlands CC, Player Course - The Woodlands
79. Wichita Falls Country Club - Wichita Falls
80. Tierra Verde Golf Club - Arlington
81. Brackenridge Park Golf Course - San Antonio
82. The Club at Sonterra, North Course - San Antonio
83. Golf Club of Dallas - Dallas
84. The Quarry - San Antonio
85. The Cliffs Resort, Possum Kingdom - Graford
86. Cypresswood Golf Club, Tradition - Spring
87. Blackhorse, South Course - Cypress
88. Pecan Valley Golf Course - San Antonio
89. Pine Forest Country Club - Houston
90. Las Colinas Country Club - Irving
91. Stonebrodge Ranch, Hills Course - McKinney
92. Ridglea Country Club, South Course - Fort Worth
93. Gleneagles Country Club, Queens Course - Plano
94. The Clubs of Kingwood, Island - Humble
95. Palmer Course at La Cantera - San Antonio
96. The Clubs of Kingwood, Forest - Humble
97. Gleneagles Country Club, Kings Course - Plano
98. Ridgewood Country Club - Waco
99. Panther Trail Golf Course - The Woodlands
100. Diamondback Golf Club - Abilene
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Lou, et al:
How does a place like Whispering Pines -- which is consistently rated #1 by the Dallas Morning News not get rated AT ALL for any top 100 position -- even when Dallas National and Colonial, are both rated ?
Are the national raters just THAT blind or what ?
Matt,
I can't speak for national raters, but I was turned on to (that doesn't look right) WP many years ago by a fomer GCAer from Michigan. David Wigler was/is (?) on a national rating panel and took some extra time during a business trip in Texas to play the course. He was blown away with the course, and urged me to see it and get others to do so as well. Andy Hodson- the then head pro at WP and, in my opinion, one of the most oustanding club professionals I've had the pleasure to meet- hosted me, another GCAer, and a friend (a top Houston amateur) in the fall of 2002. Our foursome of players with very different abilities and styles found a rather wet course, but we could see its great attributes from the outset. I've played it a couple of more times since, the last in late 2005, a drought year, when the course was firm and fast at its full potential. Distance, split seasons, and the club's disposition to accepting outside play during certain times no doubt have an impact on rater visits.
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Kirk:
That begs the question -- what were you expecting ?
Ok, I didn't go into much detail. I will expound a bit.
I'd played Dallas National the day before, and enjoyed the course a great deal. I frankly have not played a lot of private club golf, and so each opportunity is both appreciated and perhaps magnified a bit, if you can understand what I'm saying. I had high expectations, and at Dallas National I felt like the course lived up to those expectations. It' wouldn't be my favorite course to play for a number of reasons, mostly related to the fact that I found it to be very difficult, but I enjoyed the greens, and because it was late in the season the rough had been mowed much shorter than normal, so getting around wasn't so brutal, and it never became a slog.
The UT Golf Club was easier, and I scored better, but there were fewer memorable holes. I enjoyed myself, as I said, but it felt like a distinct step down from the experience I'd had the day before. I'm just curious about how others feel about the course. I'll go through the few photos I took during the round, and perhaps post a few.
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Kirk:
That begs the question -- what were you expecting ?
Ok, I didn't go into much detail. I will expound a bit.
I'd played Dallas National the day before, and enjoyed the course a great deal. I frankly have not played a lot of private club golf, and so each opportunity is both appreciated and perhaps magnified a bit, if you can understand what I'm saying. I had high expectations, and at Dallas National I felt like the course lived up to those expectations. It' wouldn't be my favorite course to play for a number of reasons, mostly related to the fact that I found it to be very difficult, but I enjoyed the greens, and because it was late in the season the rough had been mowed much shorter than normal, so getting around wasn't so brutal, and it never became a slog.
The UT Golf Club was easier, and I scored better, but there were fewer memorable holes. I enjoyed myself, as I said, but it felt like a distinct step down from the experience I'd had the day before. I'm just curious about how others feel about the course. I'll go through the few photos I took during the round, and perhaps post a few.
Your take on these two courses is similar to mine. DN is by far the more complete course with great balance. Both are on difficult sites, but I think the architects incorporated the forced carries and awkward parts better at DN. DN can be brutal when it gets firm and fast with a strong wind. The greens can be extremely difficult when they get much about 10', which happens a lot (or so I'm told).
I suspect that when the wind blows the same is true of UTGC, particularly with the tighter course boundaries and the hazards that must be traversed. I'm not sure that it is that much easier, but I've only played it once.
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I have not played Dallas National but I've played Whispering Pines a couple of times. I think there are several things keeping people away from playing Whispering Pines, what I do know is that if enough people got to see the golf course they would see a very special place that would probably rate favorably with many of America's best modern courses.
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I am not trying to put Dallas National down as it is really nice,but trying to emphasize just how good I think Whispering is. one thing WP has is good width,kind of an Augusta look without the hills being so steep plus the sandy Pinehurst 2 feel.Lou once commented that the back nine routing gets a little jumbled,and I assume that refers to the back to back threes which require a detour walk around a lake and then a backtrack.A bridge in 15 would about cure this.To be fair,you have to look away from the fake waterfall on 18.
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Can someobdy explain why Chet Williams gets so much credit compared to all the other senior design associates associated with other Nicklaus design projects. Most hire Nicklaus for the branding name and milk it for every drop they can in the marketing campaign. I have never seen in any other of his designs, where the senior associate gets partial credit. Sometimes you can see stuff about whispering where they just give credit to Chet Williams with out even mentioning NDG. Any light that could be shed would be appreciated.
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To be fair,you have to look away from the fake waterfall on 18.
18 is a disaster.
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I can see the jumbling comment and as for 18 I wish it would be taken out, anything would be better.
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Randy,here are a few guesses but not sure:The course was already laid out by one of the family members or by somebody with the summer youth camp.Then others told Mr Roberson he might have something so he got help.Also,this was never set up to be a money maker and they would rather not have you if you are any trouble,which makes the place very pleasant.
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Lou:
Gun to your head (joking of course) -- you have 10 rounds to play -- how many at DN and how many at WP ?
One otherr question -- among ALL the courses you have ever played -- is WP a top ten? top 25 ? top 50?
Need some context to better understand the course. Loved the article I saw in the current Golf Mag.
Michael WP:
That's a huge compliment when you say WP is a top 50 course in the USA.
Really?
I'd have to know how many of the existing top 100 that GD has listed that you have played.
This would help me better understand your references for cross comparison purposes.
Frankly, I find it hard to believe that local folks in Texas have long seen WP as a great golf course but others have been way behind in doing likewise.
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MATT..
I just counted up 36 out of the 100 I have played...perhaps top 50 was a little stretch but certainly belongs in the top 100.
In answer to the question above ten rounds...I play WP 7 or 8/10 versus Dallas National for example.
I am not at all a lover of somewhere like Whistling Straits..some percentage of rounds out of 10.
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WP is not a Signature Design by Nicklaus. I'm not sure that Jack himself had much, if anything to do with the design (I have been told this from several people), which is why I believe the powers that be at WP make sure that Chet Williams gets his due.
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Matt,
10 rounds at WP or DN? Let me play 2 at each then decide on the remainder. I've played WP when it was slow and wet, and it was not much fun. I played it in drought conditions with the best, nearly grainless Champion (I'm fairly sure, but a bermuda ultra-dwarf anyways) greens I've ever putted on and it was a riot. But of the two, DN gets my slight nod.
I think I've played around half (+/- a couple) of the courses on the GD list with greater concentration in the top half, and between 50-75 would be a good slot for WP (I don't have major issues overall with the GD list). I'll do a personal top 100 after taxes and travel in a couple of weeks, but I suspect that WP would fall toward the end of the top 50 to 70. I do place considerable weight on the routing followed closely by variety and balance. IMO, WP falls a bit short on the first, but does well on the last two.
Re: WP and Chet W, Trey Kemp can address this better than me as his employer knows Chet pretty well. As Greg notes, reportedly, Chet was mostly responsible for what's on the ground today. I don't think that Nicklaus spent any time working on the site, maybe not even literally. Other than to aid a course and development through the use of his name, I get the impression from people who've worked closely with Nicklaus that he is very generous for giving credit to whom it is due.
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Lou,
Thanks for the kind words. WP is a special place. Regarding the routing, it is my understanding that Mr. Robertson, the owner, staked out most of the routing, walking through the scrubby brush with wooden stakes to show the teeing area, mid fairway point and greens. It was going to be a course just for his friends and him. Once the idea of the charity came about and his vision of an International amateur team competition (The Spirit) came about, I think he realized he needed a professional to build it. Thus, NDG and Chet Williams. I don't believe Jack ever set foot on the property. In fact, Chet told me of a story that when JN was building Carlton Woods,and a bit stuck on what to do with a certain par 5, he asked Chet, "What did we do at that course in Trinity?". He was referring to #2 at WP, and now one of the holes at CW bears a very similiar resemblance.
Sam,
Is there now a waterfall on #18??? Was it always there and I just blocked it out of my memory?? And I agree #18 may be the weakest hole on the course, not in terms of difficulty (its a bear), but it seems out of place with the others.
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Lou,
Thanks for the kind words. WP is a special place. Regarding the routing, it is my understanding that Mr. Robertson, the owner, staked out most of the routing, walking through the scrubby brush with wooden stakes to show the teeing area, mid fairway point and greens. It was going to be a course just for his friends and him. Once the idea of the charity came about and his vision of an International amateur team competition (The Spirit) came about, I think he realized he needed a professional to build it. Thus, NDG and Chet Williams. I don't believe Jack ever set foot on the property. In fact, Chet told me of a story that when JN was building Carlton Woods,and a bit stuck on what to do with a certain par 5, he asked Chet, "What did we do at that course in Trinity?". He was referring to #2 at WP, and now one of the holes at CW bears a very similiar resemblance.
Sam,
Is there now a waterfall on #18??? Was it always there and I just blocked it out of my memory?? And I agree #18 may be the weakest hole on the course, not in terms of difficulty (its a bear), but it seems out of place with the others.
I think there is a waterfall on 18. When I come off 17 (an awesome hole) I close my eyes all the way through 18, take my bogey and go home.
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A bogey on the 18th with your eyes closed is a helluva score, Sam!
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8) Sam, are you referring to the upper lake overflow to Lake Livingston as a waterfall????
I remember 18 as an easy par.... ::)
8) Andy, when was the last time you were back at WP?
and lets not forget WP is a great walk
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y41/TXSeve/wp2.jpg)
the subject "waterfall" area.. drainage boys drainage.. without erosion..
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y41/TXSeve/WP17.jpg)
back on the DMN's 2nd half 50-100 list.. though i really like the front nine at Memorial, except for #9, there's no way Memorial Park should be rated at #62 or Augusta Pines at #77...
something smells rotten..
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I am talking about the rock work to the left of the green.Maybe Trump wouldn't think it is a waterfall but I count it.It is really not on the course so it gets a pass.
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Lou:
C'mon Lou - if you have ten rounds how do you split them up between DN and WP ?
Also, can you explain to me how Champions (both courses) are still being rated as top tier
ciourses. No dount the respect for Burke is there -- but where's the architecture ?
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Lou:
C'mon Lou - if you have ten rounds how do you split them up between DN and WP ?
Also, can you explain to me how Champions (both courses) are still being rated as top tier
ciourses. No dount the respect for Burke is there -- but where's the architecture ?
Matt where in the Texas rankings would you put the two courses?
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Sam:
I have not played WP but I am very impressed that the course has been at the top of the heap in the Lone Star State but when you look at the major pubs it's practically invisible.
I've played DN and really enjoyed it. One of TF's best works -- but if WP is ahead of it, as many are claiming, then I have to wonder if national raters have been asleep at the switch.
Just proves what I said on raters in general terms -- better to have more weight given to those who live in a given state because they see such courses more frequently than the one and done outsiders.
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Sam:
I have not played WP but I am very impressed that the course has been at the top of the heap in the Lone Star State but when you look at the major pubs it's practically invisible.
I've played DN and really enjoyed it. One of TF's best works -- but if WP is ahead of it, as many are claiming, then I have to wonder if national raters have been asleep at the switch.
Just proves what I said on raters in general terms -- better to have more weight given to those who live in a given state because they see such courses more frequently than the one and done outsiders.
How would you rank the Champions courses amongst the rest in Texas?
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Matt,
This whole bit about Whispering Pines not getting national recognition isn't particularly accurate...
Whispering Pines is in the current Golf Magazine Top 100, its #32 on the GolfWeek Modern list, and #2 in Texas for Golf Digest (not sure if it has enough ballots for 100 Greatest). That's roughly equal overall with Dallas National, which is on Golf Digest but not Golf Magazine.
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Sam:
Candidly, I have not played the full range of courses in Texas that more active folks have -- among the current listing by the Dallas Morning News I have played roughly 15 of the total 50. I have never thought much about Champions and frankly much of Houston golf because it is so utterly flat and more often than not quite nondescript. I'd be interested in hearing from people who think Champions deserves all the plaudits.
Andy:
GW does mention it - so does Golf Mag but where is Digest for its top 100 placement ? Yes, it's rated #2 in the state poll -- but if the folks at the Dallas Morning News have it as #1 -- for the last five (5) years -- where have the Digest raters been to get it to #1 and to have it among their top 100 poll. Looks to me like the state people are a few steps ahead of the national raters for Digest.
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Sam:
Candidly, I have not played the full range of courses in Texas that more active folks have -- among the current listing by the Dallas Morning News I have played roughly 15 of the total 50. I have never thought much about Champions and frankly much of Houston golf because it is so utterly flat and more often than not quite nondescript. I'd be interested in hearing from people who think Champions deserves all the plaudits.
Andy:
GW does mention it - so does Golf Mag but where is Digest for its top 100 placement ? Yes, it's rated #2 in the state poll -- but if the folks at the Dallas Morning News have it as #1 -- for the last five (5) years -- where have the Digest raters been to get it to #1 and to have it among their top 100 poll. Looks to me like the state people are a few steps ahead of the national raters for Digest.
What other courses in the Houston area have you played?
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Sam:
Champions (36 holes)
Lochinvar
Bear Creek
Memorial
Blue Bonnet
The Woodlands
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Sam:
Champions (36 holes)
Lochinvar
Bear Creek
Memorial
Blue Bonnet
The Woodlands
Which courses at The Woodlands? In fairness Matt you can't lump Bear Creek and Bluebonnet into your assessment of real golf courses in Houston. If you played The Masters in the 80's then yes, but since then that's crazy. As for Bluebonnet that's a glorified par 3 course that gets mowed around midterm elections. It's also in Plantersville and good hike from anywhere in the Houston area.
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Steve,
Its been 5 years or so since I last played WP. And I think my last year of employment there was 2003 (???). I think that's right. Last time I played there the greens were stimping at 13. Since Dieckhoff has been as supt. there, its a entirely different course than when we played there with Lou and the Mack Brown bashing Tiger Bernhardt. :)
And I'm a bit surpriised at your assessment of Memorial. I'd have it much higher. And in your neighborhood, while I really liked the Nicklaus Carlton Woods course, the best course up there is the Player course, esp. if you forget the 8th hole. Really good and quirky. A nice combination of fun and hard.
And where is Westwood CC?? Really solid track after the re-do.
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Sam:
I have played all the courses at The Woodlands. Played Blue Bonnet just to fill the time as I was traveling through the area with my wife.
I played Bear Creek during the '81 US Public Links so it's been some time since I was there.
What would you consider Lochinvar ? An executive coursse ?
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Sam:
To clarify -- The Woodlands CC (Tournament Course) and the Palmer and Player courses.
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Sam:
I have played all the courses at The Woodlands. Played Blue Bonnet just to fill the time as I was traveling through the area with my wife.
I played Bear Creek during the '81 US Public Links so it's been some time since I was there.
What would you consider Lochinvar ? An executive coursse ?
I've never played Lochinvar, I've heard it's very good. Hardly an executive course.
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But it is a course for executives...non distaff division of course
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But it is a course for executives...non distaff division of course
Complete lack of tail though.
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A Bill Diddle sighting. Oh, happiness.
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assume you are referring to Northwood?
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assume you are referring to Northwood?
Boros will haunt you from the grave if you say anything about Northwood.
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Matt,
For me the 10 round split between Dallas National and Whispering Pines would 6-4 either way or 5-5. I'm not on the fence, just indifferent. They are totally different courses, and as many have said, both are among the best the state has to offer. For perspective, I consider Whispering Pines to be superior to the Nicklaus course at Carlton Woods.
If given a choice I would rather spend a day at Wolf Point, Brookhollow, or Champions for reasons architectural and otherwise.
Wyatt
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Sam,I will have to deal with the ghost of you can only hit it as far as you can swing it,but while Northwood is a very nice course and club now,can you imagine it holding a US Open when it was only 6 years old?I bet it would be better regarded if it had never had the open because expectations change. it is one of the strongest courses around here except for the layup 18th and the scary and poorly positioned tunnels under Alpha Road.At the time of the open that was a country lane at best.By the way,the car park is OB.I believe this was Diddels only Texas course.
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Wyatt:
Thanks for your comments.
Why spend the day at Champions ?
Get a better game with the crowd there ? It can't be from the architectural emptiness that exists there.
My point on DN and WP is how empty GD is when they don't include a course that the folks from TX have rated #1 for the last few years. Do GD raters not have their eyes open.
Wyatt -- last question -- where would you place DN and WP among all courses you have played in the States. Top five percent? Top 10%, etc, etc. Thanks again ...
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Matt,
So now you're criticizing Golf Digest for not ranking a course that you haven't even played?
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Andy:
What does me playing or not playing a course have to to with what I said ?
You missed my issue -- again.
The fact that state raters in TX have had WP as the #1 course for five years makes me wonder what the hell are GD raters NOT seeing since the course is not rated among their famed top 100. Check what DN is rated by Digest now -- 59th. Where is WP ?
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Andy:
What does me playing or not playing a course have to to with what I said ?
You missed my issue -- again.
The fact that state raters in TX have had WP as the #1 course for five years makes me wonder what the hell are GD raters NOT seeing since the course is not rated among their famed top 100. Check what DN is rated by Digest now -- 59th. Where is WP ?
Matt,
I didn't miss your issue. If you are neutral on this why don't you ask why the state raters don't have Dallas National #1 since its been in the 100 Greatest for years and Whispering Pines has not? I haven't a clue which is the better course having not played WP, and evidently neither do you.
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Andy:
I don't have to have a clue. I credit TX raters with seeing what WP is about. They HAVE listed it #1 for five straight years.
GD, on the other hand, rates DN but does not have WP listed at all among its top 100.
Beg your pardon -- but you did miss my point big time. Worst of all -- the other mags have the course and GD doesn't.
End of story ...
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Matt,
And you very clearly feel that's enough evidence to validate that everyone else is right and Digest is wrong. If that's not your point, what is it?
And since when do you use ratings as evidence for claims? I've done that to counter you when you've disagreed with them and you of course claim they don't know what they're talking about.
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Andy:
My point -- AGAIN -- is that GD prides itself on being the authority of ratings. Does it not ?
Here they have DN rated #59 and low and behold where is WP ? Not rated among the top 100.
Don't other mags have it included ?
Hello - anybody home ?
Keep this in mind TX raters through the Dallas Morning News has the course listed #1 for five straight years.
How much light on the subject do GD raters need ?
The difference on the rating argument you mention is that I have always believed that state people know more about their
area courses. I would have thought that after FIVE YEARS the GD raters would have seen what WP is about and have it rated accordingly. I guess it's just another example of GD being slow on the switch --ditto for Rock Creek, Kingsley, Black Mesa, WR / Lower and on and on and on it goes.
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Matt,
I have always disagreed with your take on local raters knowing more about their areas than national raters, just based on that one issue. I'll take a well traveled national rater's opinion on any course over some local guy who has never traveled outside the area.
I'll make sure I tell all my rater friends that we have to subscribe to Groupthink to make sure to match everyone else. Having different opinions on various courses is obviously not permitted in Matt's world.
And to get back on topic, if the state raters think that Vaquero is #7 in Texas I'm certainly not willing to assume that I'd agree with their take on other courses. Butterfield Trail in El Paso is at least equal to Vaquero, just minus the amenities. None of this in any way should be seen as a criticism of Whispering Pines--it admittedly looks very good from the photos I've seen.
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Andy:
The one-time "national" raters that you hug only see a course in a very time sensitive manner. They don't see the fullest range when played over a longer period of time. That's irrefutable in my mind. I don't doubt that if someone stays focused solely on the regional or state level -- the wherewithal to do cross comparisons with other courses outside their state / region will be nearly impossible. I never said otherwise. But ...
If DN is rated #59 by GD -- then WP should be rated among the top 100 given the fact that TX raters have WP holding the top spot for TX for the last five years -- count'em five years !
Andy, stop with the nonsense -- you're better than that -- you and any others can have whatever opnions you wish to have. I've seen more than my share of courses to understand the process quite well.
Please don't mislead the discussion -- I don't give a rats behind about Vaquero or Butterfield. The issue is that other mags have WP listed and GD doesn't -- in terms of the top 100. GD is no longer the leader in assessing greatness in design -- it's panel is shooting blanks on a host of fronts. Just my opinion.
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Matt,
Your opinion on the magazine's placement of WP means nothing to me--you haven't seen the course. I have nothing else to add.
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Andy:
I never said I had -- it seems GD raters have not seen it either -- maybe they should given how many Texas raters from the Dallas Morning News and other major pubs have.
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The issue is that other mags have WP listed and GD doesn't -- in terms of the top 100. GD is no longer the leader in assessing greatness in design -- it's panel is shooting blanks on a host of fronts. Just my opinion.
a well reasoned opinion.. IMHO
regardless of my problems with some of the 50-100 TX listings..