Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Richard Choi on March 29, 2011, 08:04:59 PM
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The thread about Bay Hill and my recent experience at Pacific Dunes leads me to this question.
Is there a more penal par 3 than the 14th at Pacific Dune?
(http://fxpppa.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pdKXxpANpE6qjlO6WSDcq58a2MhdSQeyoxbzjkAeKkNCIGZDKBRSP6mQlFImOSopUbe01tYr6GN-8fx8bc6-7uHPXL6kBj8_R/Pacific%20Dunes%20-%20Hole%2014%20-%20b%20-%20Tee%20to%20Green.jpg)
It is certainly a gorgeous hole, but it is a card-wrecker ready to pounce on any unsuspecting golfers. During King's Putter, there were many X's. On the Friday morning round, with the head wind, I hit two draws that became hooks right into the gorse. And on Sunday's round, with a tail wind, I hit a nice wedge to the front green which just kept rolling right into the nastiest bunker you will ever find.
The hole is so exposed to wind and it is so raised up, it is just a beast of a hole now. I think this is the hole that I fear the most at Bandon Resort and perhaps that hole that I fear the most anywhere.
At least if I hit it into the drink at 17th at Sawgrass, I get to drop about 80 yards away to try again.
What is the most penal par 3 you know? Do you think it is more penal than the 14th at Pac?
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Oh I don't know, 16th at Cypress Point?
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I've never played at Bandon Resort, but have you ever played the Postage Stamp at Royal Troon (where I died in the coffin)? If so, how would you comapre that hole with your 14th at Pac Dunes? The look is similar, though right and left are reversed. From your photo I'd say the Pac Dunes green is larger and the bunkers less penal, but then that's just from the photo you've put up. What do others who've played both have to say?
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Richard,
I don't know if it is more penal than PD 14, but one of the hardest par 3s I have ever played is 13 at Wolf Run in Indiana. The hole plays 255 yards(ish) from the tips and 225 from the member tees. I can assure this hole has seen its fair share of X's. Any shot short and left finds the minefield of bunkers and any of the very short bunkers leave an all but impossible uphill recovery over more bunkers to a green that has a severe run-off over the back for the player that catches it just a bit thin. Any shot short and right caroms down the hill and is likely to be blocked out by trees (and even if not it is still a heck of a difficult recovery).
While there is less of a chance of a lost ball than at PD, there is a great Ping Pong possibility. Maybe there are not as many X's as at PD, but I'll bet there are less pars too!
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/WolfRun-13.jpg)
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Richard:
Not even close -- the 8th at Wolf Creek (Mesquite, NV) -- makes the 14th at Pac Dunes look so e-z.
I'd place the 8th there against any par-3 hole in that specific category.
And, it can be quite fair when you play the correct tee.
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In February, on my last day at Bandon, I birdied the 14th at PD.
Perhaps more memorable and special than I realized at the time.
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Richard:
Not even close -- the 8th at Wolf Creek (Mesquite, NV) -- makes the 14th at Pac Dunes look so e-z.
I'd place the 8th there against any par-3 hole in that specific category.
And, it can be quite fair when you play the correct tee.
Matt,
I think you're probably right, 8 at WC is harder than either of the holes listed thus far, but only from the championship tee. But, there is a five yard bailout area to the right of the green. That's all you need from 250 yards, right?
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Richard,
I don't know if it is more penal than PD 14, but one of the hardest par 3s I have ever played is 13 at Wolf Run in Indiana. The hole plays 255 yards(ish) from the tips and 225 from the member tees. I can assure this hole has seen its fair share of X's. Any shot short and left finds the minefield of bunkers and any of the very short bunkers leave an all but impossible uphill recovery over more bunkers to a green that has a severe run-off over the back for the player that catches it just a bit thin. Any shot short and right caroms down the hill and is likely to be blocked out by trees (and even if not it is still a heck of a difficult recovery).
While there is less of a chance of a lost ball than at PD, there is a great Ping Pong possibility. Maybe there are not as many X's as at PD, but I'll bet there are less pars too!
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/WolfRun-13.jpg)
Mark-That looks like golf`s version of the electric chair. Thank god for equitable stroke control. ;)
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Two or Twenty, the old 14th at Engineers
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Richard,
I'm also 1 for 1 in my one playing of Pac Dunes. I birdied it, but had to land my wedge short of the green to allow for the proper roll to 5 feet!
Another penal hole!! ;D
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fd/TPC_Sawgrass_17.jpg)
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#11 at Shinnecock. The shortest par 5 in America..
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Mark:
If someone can hit the 5-yard area to the right of the green at Wolf Creek's 8th -- then hiting the green is a piece of cake.
From 245 yards and with ANY wind blowing -- from any direction -- the hole is just tough as nails. Yields nothing without flawless execution.
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I would hazard a guess that Gene Littler would opt for the 5th at Pine Valley.
Bob
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Designs like this shown in the picture below make me want to deploy good old Victorian diplomacy by sending in the Gun Boat to resolve the problem once and for all.
One good shot could see that island split in two prior to each sinking below the ripples of the pond.
Melvyn
Richard,
I'm also 1 for 1 in my one playing of Pac Dunes. I birdied it, but had to land my wedge short of the green to allow for the proper roll to 5 feet!
Another penal hole!! ;D
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fd/TPC_Sawgrass_17.jpg)
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Bob H:
The 5th at PV is a junior varsity toughness -- compared to the 8th at Wolf Creek when played from tip tee distance.
Played both several times to make that comment.
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The 17th at University of Wisconsin Golf Course (University Ridge) is brutal. It's 250 (from the tips) to a small green with water short and left and a bunker right. There's not really any bail out right or long. I guess there is a little one right, but it's not much shorter and tiny.
I thought the hole was just terrible, honestly. I hit a peach of a driver to 15 feet or so (fortunately the pin was up front as it was into the wind). I just don't understand a hole like that, at that length, with nowhere to go.
I've not played 14th at Pacific Dunes, but if it's harder than this one, I hope it at least has more options.
I'd love to hear other's opinions who have played it.
Mark,
I've played that one at Wolf Run a few times, and it's brutal. I don't understand why the keep it so long, especially with the back and right sloping green that you mentioned. Into the wind, you can't get home and down wind you can't stop it. At least you can find it though!
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Andy:
I'd agree about the 17th at URidge -- if playing from the tips at the newly lengthened back tee. It not only lengthens the hole with water fronting the green, it creates an even tougher angle for the tee shot. You can see some pics of the 17th at URidge in this thread:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,38431.0.html
I don't think the 17th is a killer from the up tees -- still hard from the blues at 192 yds, I think it's around 170 from the whites, and downhill, and the green is actually much deeper than what it appears on the tee. My approach has always been to whack at it with something I know will carry the pond, and worry about the up-and-down afterwards.
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Here's a picture of 8 at Wolf Creek. Not much bailout.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/wolfcreek-8.jpg)
Here's a couple more that I have played, that I found particularly difficult. The one that can really lead to a huge number is 16 at Victoria National. What an amazing hole, but what a nightmare, especially if it's windy.
Victoria National 16
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/VictoriaNational-16.jpg)
Purgatory 17
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Purgatory-17.jpg)
Doonbeg 14
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Doonbeg-14.jpg)
Crooked Stick 6 (though notice my ball close to the pin :))
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/CrookedStick-62.jpg)
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7 at Palmetto
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Kiawah Ocean Course #17
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Mark,
I agree about the up tees, but a 170 (from the whites) carry for the other guys I was with, who weren't great players, was certainly no picnic. The picture in the thread you linked was just how I remember it. The green is so narrow on that angle and far away with water everywhere short. I just didn't think that hole provided any options, especially with any wind.
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Richard,
I've played 14 at PD only four times split up across two days and the wind was mild but I can't see how 14 is even in the top 5 hardest par threes I've played.
Double bogey can be taken out of play pretty easily if needed.
Three par threes that come to mind that are tougher in my opinion (sorry no pictures, I'm on my Nook):
1. Calamity at Royal Portrush.
2. #3 @ Willingers in Northfield, Mn
3. #13 or #14 at Waterlefe in Bradenton, Fl. This is probably the only par three I hae played (played it probably 20 times) where I considered hittng it long into the water on purpose to get a drop near the green.
If I can find pictures I will post them.
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Oh I don't know, 16th at Cypress Point?
Bill, I wouldn't put 16th at CPC on the list because it gives you a bailout. You can play a short(ish) iron, and then a wedge, take X out of the picture, and have a chance at par.
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In every pic save one, at least there are some places where you can find and play your ball...the exception? Sawgrass 17. You can't recover from water.
Dont forget 12 at The Pit and the other tribute version/pastiches of the 17th at sawgrass like at renditions and world tour.
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The tough past about the 8th at Wolf Creek is the feeling of blindness when you launch your approach into space. The green sits well below the tees but you need a good sight line and plenty of confidence to fire away. From 245 yards I can't see much tougher any other hole can be.
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the 8th on the east course at Kai Sai Chau, from tiger tees at 232 yards
(http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss204/dendennis71/P3251293.jpg)
view from the white tees at 199 yards
(http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss204/dendennis71/P3251294.jpg)
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I don't get this thread. Surely the 17th at Sawgrass is, without any doubt, the most penal par 3, given that missing the green almost automatically results in another ball being put in play. Some of these may be harder, and most may be better, par 3s but they aren't more penal.
Just for the sake of massaging my ego I'm 1 under for two plays on that hole at Wolf Run. Something like 40 over for the course, though......
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Jeff Warne -
Agreed about 7 at Palmetto. As I recall, it is 150 yards, slightly downhill, a big but narrow green, with no water and only one (?) bunker. One of the hardest par 3's I've ever played. Simple, short, elegant and terrifying.
A type of par 3 that could be replicated on almost any course with a small hill, but it's not.
Bob
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Second for Calamity at RPR,
5 at PV
17 at MGC
I would even go so far as to nominate 17 at Enniscrone
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I'll throw out the 4th at Shennecossett (Donald Ross) in Connecticut. Volcano hole that plays around 180 to 200. The picture is to the right of the tee but shows the severe fall off. Green slopes to the side. If you miss right or left or over and chip/pitch is not perfect it will come back to your feet. With the green falling off it is all too easy to put the ball on the other side. Best play, might be short to the alley in front and then have a much easier chip.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_cV38Iks6zyE/TZMyaM3CpMI/AAAAAAABByU/3Q-WmTj6KTE/s800/IMG_0726.JPG)
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Mark:
Nice post -- is your score on the 8th at WC from the tips -- I don't give credit for playing the hole from the junior tees. ;D
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Mark:
Nice post -- is your score on the 8th at WC from the tips -- I don't give credit for playing the hole from the junior tees. ;D
Matt,
If that question's for me, then we're talking about different holes. I'm talking 13 at Wolf Run (see Mark S's post) and I hit 3 wood both times, so I'm guessing around 220 yards but I don't recall the exact yardage. I don't think that was the tips, though, I'm not vain enough to think my game suits the tips on most courses, let alone one that delights in being featured on a list of America's hardest.
Isn't anyone going to take up the distinction I drew between penal (which is what the top post asked about) and hard? Or are we just going to discuss very hard (but not neccesarily penal) par 3s. Kai Sai Chau looks pretty damn penal to me.
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Mark:
OK ... the 8th at Wolf Creek in Mesquite NV -- is penal, hard and whatever else you want to say.
Also at 245 yards it's not wedge-olla or a short iron like the 17th at TPC or other such holes.
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The hardest Par 3 I've ever played is the second hole at Isleworth. I've played it 15-20 times.....and I've probably only made 2 or 3 pars. There's so much risk out there.....between the trees, the bunkers, the lake and the run-off on the left of the green.
(http://files.cmsoffice.se/22/bilder/5(2).jpg)
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Here is the link for #15 (I was wrong about the hole # above - it has been 10+ years since I played it) at Waterlefe in Bradenton.
There isn't a bailout and the green is VERY shallow. I equate it similarly to Sawgrass only it is longer and depth perception is tougher because of the marsh.
http://www.waterlefegolfandriverclub.com/sites/courses/custom.asp?id=1022&page=58906&sid=3137
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Man, these are some BRUTAL holes!!! :)
In PD 14th defense, it is only a 130 yard hole, but it still scares the crap out of me.
Water holes don't scare me as much since you can always drop closer. I wish I had pics from the right side bunker at PD 14th, it is the nastiest bunker in the resort!
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If you want to say it's Sawgrass then you have to consider that the 17th at PGA West is the same concept, but considerably more difficult.
17 at Sawgrass is 137 yards. The hole at PGA West is 168 to what I have to believe is a significantly smaller green.
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For a hole of its length, the second at Kingsley is rather penal....anything other than short is dead..only a shortish par 3 but a great hole.
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I just don't find 17th at Sawgrass as penal because even if I put it in the drink, there is a drop area about 80~60 yards from the green. Sure, I can put it in the water again, but you have to admit that drop shot is much easier.
The problem with some these other holes with gorse and what not is that it is an automatic re-tee or the bunker is so severe that you may not get it out.
To me, that is more penal than water.
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I just don't find 17th at Sawgrass as penal because even if I put it in the drink, there is a drop area about 80~60 yards from the green. Sure, I can put it in the water again, but you have to admit that drop shot is much easier.
The problem with some these other holes gorse and what not is that it is an automatic re-tee or the bunker is so severe that you may not get it out.
To me, that is more penal than water.
If you drop from the water and hit the green with your next you're no better off than even if it took you two to get it out of a bunker and onto the green. The water is an absolute and thus truly penal. Bunkers and other hazards might be intimidating but there is some question as to what their real penalty will be.
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Ryan,
I've only seen that par 3 at Isleworth on TV and in photos but it appears that the tree chute you have to hit through is just an unnecessary obstacle and that they block what would be a nice view of the hole. Does it look much different in person?
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From that pesky little front bunker with the delightful name....#10 at Pine Valley ;D
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Matt, if I hit into the right bunker at 14th, I am looking at a SEVERE uphill lie with the green about 20 feet above me (and bunkers at Bay Hill would be a hardpan compare to the bunkers at Bandon). Even if I get lucky and get it out of the bunker, the distance control has to be spot on as if you are short, it will roll back and if you are deep, you are over the green and flirting with the gorse.
I will take an 80 yard shot over the water on a perfect lie over that anyday.
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Oh I don't know, 16th at Cypress Point?
+1
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I'll nominate the 11th at Crystal Downs. Don't have the card in front of me, but i'm thinking it's 215+. Very well bunkered. And, a TOUGH, nasty back-to-front tilting green.
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Ryan,
I've only seen that par 3 at Isleworth on TV and in photos but it appears that the tree chute you have to hit through is just an unnecessary obstacle and that they block what would be a nice view of the hole. Does it look much different in person?
The trees certainly aren't needed but for the tour-caliber membership at Isleworth, they really don't come into play unless you're playing the Tiger tees (back tees) into the wind. From the non-Tiger tees, the hole's main defenses, while narrow through the tree chute, are not the trees.
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If you want to say it's Sawgrass then you have to consider that the 17th at PGA West is the same concept, but considerably more difficult.
17 at Sawgrass is 137 yards. The hole at PGA West is 168 to what I have to believe is a significantly smaller green.
There is a replica Sawgrass 17 in Davidsonville, MD (Renditions GC), except the wind is often howling. Doh.
Capitol Hill Golf Club's Judge Course, has 2 entries. An island green 6th, 230 from the tips, 190 from the members:
(https://stracka.com/my/photos/4/3/8/0/438039_2010419201247.jpg)
And a 256/233 yard peninsula green 16th, that I cannot find a photo for.
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The 11th at the Downs is indeed difficult, but the bailout is anywhere short, particularly just short-left. It is certainly extremely penal if you're one of the few to hit it long.
That picture of Doonbeg has me thinking that's somewhere in the running for the penal category.
I also am not surprised someone brought up the 2nd at The Kingsley Club. Always a nice place to make either a 2 or a 10 while playing the same ball. One of my favorite par threes anywhere.
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Bob H:
The 5th at PV is a junior varsity toughness -- compared to the 8th at Wolf Creek when played from tip tee distance.
Played both several times to make that comment.
Matt--
8 at Wolf Creek certainly looks hard. But other than that, or in spite of that, what makes it a good hole?
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Here's one that only I would nominate. ;)
Perhaps a combo of penal and just plain hard, the 15th at the public course in Sugarloaf, PA by Cornish plays 266 yards, water in front, woods right, bunker left, with a two tiered green. I think it has the rare status of being the #1 stroke hole as a par 3.
(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/sugarloaf/15a.jpg)
(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/sugarloaf/15b.jpg)
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The one thing I am learning from this thread is that some people don't know how to design a par 3.
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Got you all beat, the 14th at Coeur d'alene:
http://www.golfcoursegurus.com/reviews/cdaresort.php
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I also am not surprised someone brought up the 2nd at The Kingsley Club. Always a nice place to make either a 2 or a 10 while playing the same ball. One of my favorite par threes anywhere.
I played Kinglsey a handful of times a few summers ago and found the 9th hole more difficult/penal than the 2nd. Maybe it was the specific tee/pin combination on 9 that day - it was brutal. I really enjoyed the 2nd and became enemies with the 9th.
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17 at U-Ridge was always a brutal hole at 195. I can't remotely imagine playing it at 250.
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The 11th at Shinnecock Hills for Donnie:
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_4m0FdCNoEm8/TSiVp7HxzfI/AAAAAAAAAE4/9DdbOqj4JY8/s1600/Shinnecock-side.jpg)
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I played Kinglsey a handful of times a few summers ago and found the 9th hole more difficult/penal than the 2nd. Maybe it was the specific tee/pin combination on 9 that day - it was brutal. I really enjoyed the 2nd and became enemies with the 9th.
You know, I've had the opposite experience and fared slightly better there than on the 2nd, but you're right, it may be more penal, in that if you miss the green you've got your hands full.
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my vote is for the 7th at princeville. 210 from the tips over a ravine to a tilted green bordered by the ocean
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Ok, I have three to add. I will start from least penal to the hardest. Trust me though par is a very, very hard task on all three of them.
First is #15 at Aldarra in Seattle. At something like 235 yards to a extremely raised green that is shallow, and run off areas all around. You just need to strike a real high solid hybrid or three wood here to make a par.
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pferlicca/Ald15t-1.jpg)
Second is #11 at Tumble Creek in Cle Elum, Washington. Though it is only 176 yards from the tips, it is almost always into a 20+mph wind. A small narrow green that drops off all around, means you better strike your club just perfect, or the wind will just push it all over the place. Lets me just say that the bushes on the right collect A LOT of balls. Tons of X's are recorded here. If you do catch it on a calm day, you still feel happy about getting a par.
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pferlicca/TC11t-1.jpg)
Last, is #11 at The Summit Course at Cordillera in Edwards, CO. At 275 yards, a lot of people are pulling out the big stick and hoping they hit it straight, and there really isn't even a bailout area. And then on top of it, the green is a steep two tiered green, I am pretty sure a 18+ handicapper should just move to the next hole and not even bother losing multiple golf balls.
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pferlicca/Summit11t-2.jpg)
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Richard Choi:
At least if I hit it into the drink at 17th at Sawgrass, I get to drop about 80 yards away to try again.
On how many other par threes are you likely to (perhaps regularly) be playing three from 80 yards out?
That's pretty bloody penal IMO!
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I agree With Matt about the difficulty of 8 at Wolf Creek.
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Rich,
I would say that #14 at PD is sneaky penal. You can cruise up to the tee, see the flag, pull a 9 iron and a few minutes later you are putting a 5 on the card and shaking your head.
When you step up to #8 at WC, you know the hole has trouble everywhere. #14 at PD it sneaks up on you.
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1. Kai Sai Chau looks brutal.
2. 250 yarders at Tullymore and Whistling Straits Straits course are brutal ones that I have played.
3. Flemma has the right course but the wrong hole at The Pit...I think it's number 3 with the Jurassic Park Jungle all around that little green.
4. 17 at Harvest Hill in Orchard Park, NY, is pretty brutal, but only due to its poor design. From the tips, you have to float a 3-metal over an enormous kettle of water, land it on an average-sized green and not have it roll off to the cartparth and backing forest.
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Rich,
I would say that #14 at PD is sneaky penal. You can cruise up to the tee, see the flag, pull a 9 iron and a few minutes later you are putting a 5 on the card and shaking your head.
When you step up to #8 at WC, you know the hole has trouble everywhere. #14 at PD it sneaks up on you.
"Sneaky penal" does not mean "most penal" (as in the title of this thread), but nevertheless, well said and I agree with you completely.
Mark
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The 8th hole at Wolf Creek in Mesquite is as penal as I have ever seen. A drive into the water almost is the safe shot!
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I had a little trouble with #9 at Kingsley Club. In three rounds I ended up in 3 different bunkers.
(http://)(http://i1177.photobucket.com/albums/x353/mhogan21/P1010056.jpg)
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#2 at La Quinta - Mountain course is very difficult. Just adding to the list.
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Carl:
The topic of this thread is "most penal" -- the 8th at Wolf Creek only rewards the best of the best approaches. The slightest pull and it's wet -- the slightest push and it can be a quick reload. Laying up is no bargain either.
In sum -- it can be a three or put it in your pocket type hole.
Best thing about it -- is that the more forward tees do enhance playability -- only those who feel the need for a challenge should be back at the tips.
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Best thing about it -- is that the more forward tees do enhance playability -- only those who feel the need for a challenge should be back at the tips.
Or the 6300 yard tees - 217 yards on the 8th
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Jason:
How nice of you to leave out the 150-yard markers.
People can easily pick and choose the different tee boxes as they wish.
In certain situations -- such as the 8th -- that would help many for sure.
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this is the first hole at Clearwater Bay in Hong Kong. Would have to rate as one of the hardest stroke index 11 starting holes anywhere
(http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss204/dendennis71/P3231129.jpg)
(http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss204/dendennis71/P3231130.jpg)
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I don't claim this to be as penal as some of the brutes in this thread, but as we haven't had anything from the UK yet, I offer this one as a token of how mean we can be.
This is the 4th hole at Brampton Park in Cambridgeshire. 174 Yards....Stroke Index 1!! Hole was designed by Simon Gidman during his time with Hawtree, back in the late 80's. I played it once and it was a simply terrifying prospect from the tee. The cloying presence of the thick forest was bad enough, but the entire hole is surrounded by flooded gravel pits, so anything short, long, left or right is gone. It is SERIOUSLY narrow.
We Brits don't give up golf balls lightly and this is definitely a hole on which you want to dig to the very depths of your ball pocket and find that scraggy Pinnacle or Top Flite you keep for special occasions.
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af45/jronimo/4th-hole-resize.jpg)
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af45/jronimo/BramptonParkHole4.jpg)
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Robin,
That looks a piece of cake compared to the 9th at Brancepeth (which anyone joining us on the Friday of the Coltathon will get the chance to play twice). I don't knowe if Boony has a photo he can share?
Mark
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Folks seem to be saying that length adds to how penal a hole is. I would think that length increases difficulty, but has no bearing on whether a hole is penal or not.
Ciao
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14th at Doonbeg...
8th at Royal Troon...
Incredibly penal holes both...
Also both under 120 yards...
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I played Kinglsey a handful of times a few summers ago and found the 9th hole more difficult/penal than the 2nd. Maybe it was the specific tee/pin combination on 9 that day - it was brutal. I really enjoyed the 2nd and became enemies with the 9th.
You know, I've had the opposite experience and fared slightly better there than on the 2nd, but you're right, it may be more penal, in that if you miss the green you've got your hands full.
I'm with you, Brian. Last summer I played #9 at 1 under in a few rounds. I've never made anything less than a 5 at #2. It has gotten to the point where I am a complete mental trainwreck on the tee.
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Sean writes:
"I would think that length increases difficulty, but has no bearing on whether a hole is penal or not."
If difficulty has no bearing on whether a hole is 'penal' or not, what does have a bearing? Is there such a thing as an easy penal hole? Asked another way, in what sense does the term 'penal holes' as used in this thread differ from the term 'hard holes'?
Maybe another way to get at the same issue is to ask what is the opposite of 'penal' as used here? 'Non-penal' does not count as an answer.
Bob
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Sean writes:
"I would think that length increases difficulty, but has no bearing on whether a hole is penal or not."
If difficulty has no bearing on whether a hole is 'penal' or not, what does have a bearing? Is there such a thing as an easy penal hole? Asked another way, in what sense does the term 'penal holes' as used in this thread differ from the term 'hard holes'?
Maybe another way to get at the same issue is to ask what is the opposite of 'penal' as used here? 'Non-penal' does not count as an answer.
Bob
Bob
A penal hole is defined by its lack of choices; one choice of play being the most penal on the continuum. While the length of a forced carry may increase or decrease the difficulty, it doesn't alter the nature of the hole. Its the ability of golfers that shifts, not the definition for penal.
Ciao
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Sean writes:
"I would think that length increases difficulty, but has no bearing on whether a hole is penal or not."
If difficulty has no bearing on whether a hole is 'penal' or not, what does have a bearing? Is there such a thing as an easy penal hole? Asked another way, in what sense does the term 'penal holes' as used in this thread differ from the term 'hard holes'?
Maybe another way to get at the same issue is to ask what is the opposite of 'penal' as used here? 'Non-penal' does not count as an answer.
Bob
Bob
A penal hole is defined by its lack of choices; one choice of play being the most penal on the continuum. While the length of a forced carry may increase or decrease the difficulty, it doesn't alter the nature of the hole. Its the ability of golfers that shifts, not the definition for penal.
Ciao
Sean... I agree with your definition of "Penal".
However, with a Par-3, I think that other "penal" (i.e. the difficulty of recovering from the hazards) has to also be taken in to an equation... Because let's face it - there are very few choices. You tee from the same distance and angle and try and hit the same target on every par-3, give or take wind and some firm conditions. Therefore the difficulty should be considered in the equation.
Anyway, choice and difficulty can be intertwined: A 25 yard deep green with water tight short and tight long can be held easily with a 9 iron but becomes near impossible with a 3-iron. There is less of a choice of shot (perfection being required) and a big penalty for missing it.
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Sean - Thinking out loud with you here. You write:
"A penal hole is defined by its lack of choices;..."
That is the usual definition. But I don't think it is helpful. The 'lack of choices' boils down to an architect demanding that a player execute a certain shot. But isn't a hole with a 'lack of choices' just a fancy way to saying the hole is hard? Doesn't building a hole without choices amount to building a hole with hazards and difficulties so arranged that you are required to play to certain spots? And if you fail to do so - you are in big trouble. That is, a penal hole (by the definition of 'penal') is going to be a hard hole.
Note that if the arrangement of hazards are such that playing choices are possible, you have a hole that is at once not penal and easier (at least for the average player).
What I am driving at is that the term 'penal' sheds little light about a hole. What sheds much more light is to use terms like 'hard' or 'difficult'. In part because they come closer to what is really going on. But more importantly because those everyday terms exist on an easy to understand continuum that runs from hard to easy and back again.
Which takes me back to one of my original questions. Is there such a thing as an easy penal hole? My guess is no, there is no such animal. By definition. It would follow that the phrase 'hard penal hole' is redundant. All of which suggests that there are problems with that age-old architectural terminology.
Bob
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Bob,
Sorry, but I am having a bit of trouble following your logic. So a penal hole is one without choices? And a hole without choices is thus a hard hole? I'm not sure I get this. I think penal is defined by the cost of making a mistake. I think that one could have a fairly easy hole (say a 100 yard island green) but it still be very penal. On the other hand, one could have a very hard hole (at least in relation to par, but have it not be penal) - something like a flat, wide open 250 yard par 3.
To me, penal is not as much about how easy (or hard) it is to make par on the hole. The key to penal is when you miss the green, how much of a penalty do you pay? That is why I posted the 13th at Wolf Point. If you miss the green there, for most players they are looking at 5 or X.
I'm not sure I've made this any more clear (even in my own mind) and thus maybe you're right in saying we should just stick to "easy to hard"
Mark
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Mark -
What makes a hole one that is without choices? The positioning of hazards so that play is dictated by those hazards to designated spots. That is also a good working definition of a hard hole. Miss the designated spots and you pay a heavy price.
Which suggests that 'penal' holes are all 'hard' holes. Let me put that differently. There could be hard holes that aren't penal, but there are no penal holes that aren't hard.
My suggestion is to use terms like 'hard' to describe such holes. It carries less baggage, is more precise and has many useful antomyms like 'easy'. Terms like 'penal' have no such antonyms.
Bob
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Mark -
Rereading your post, I failed to address one of your points.
"I think penal is defined by the cost of making a mistake."
I don't agree. Making a mistake on a strategically designed hole can be, and often is, more catastrophic than a mistake on a what people call a 'penal' hole'.
Sean has the definition of 'penal' mostly right. Penal holes are usually distinguished by the absence of playing choices. (Though as noted above, I think that is not a helpful framework for thinking about the difficulties (or lack thereof) of holes.)
Bob
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Richard,
You're mostly right about PD's 14; that's where my wheels started coming off in my match with Reef and I shanked my 9-iron. In prior rounds, I've hit it right and made double. But in my final round on Monday afternoon, I punched a little 8-iron into the 10 mph W/SW wind to 15' and made my only putt of the Bandon trip. One can miss left and it is a short hole so, it can't be my most penal.
I have a bit of a brief but infrequent history with CPC's #16, taking enough total strokes that would suggest more than double the rounds that I've actually played. But the difficulty of the hole is more due to its reputation and the silly rule, in my humble opinion, that the ocean is a part of the course (no boundaries allowing a drop where it crossed).
My candidates for most penal par 3s are all from the great state of Texas: #2 Austin CC; # 4 Horseshoe Bay Resort- Ram Rock; #15 The Cliffs at Possum Kingdom. Honorable Mention goes to #s 12 and 17 at Stonebridge Ranch CC (Dye). All have water guarding the greens, wind and elevation change affecting club selection, and difficult green complexes often draining into the water features. Length is a factor, but the tightness created by the water is the defining feature. Sorry I don't know how to post pictures, but they wouldn't do justice anyways to just how terrifying these holes are, particularly in competition.
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anyone added the 4th at royal county down?
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Carl:
The topic of this thread is "most penal" -- the 8th at Wolf Creek only rewards the best of the best approaches. The slightest pull and it's wet -- the slightest push and it can be a quick reload. Laying up is no bargain either.
In sum -- it can be a three or put it in your pocket type hole.
Best thing about it -- is that the more forward tees do enhance playability -- only those who feel the need for a challenge should be back at the tips.
I know. But you have said many times that you think Wolf Creek is a great course, and I'm trying to figure out how #8 and its difficulty fits into that overall assessment.
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8 at Wolf Creek gets my vote too. No bailout, water both sides. PENAL. #5 at PV is a close second as the only bailout is short plus the green is lightning quick so if you are above the hole, good luck. At least the green at Wolf Creek is not severely tilted.
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Sean - Thinking out loud with you here. You write:
"A penal hole is defined by its lack of choices;..."
That is the usual definition. But I don't think it is helpful. The 'lack of choices' boils down to an architect demanding that a player execute a certain shot. But isn't a hole with a 'lack of choices' just a fancy way to saying the hole is hard? Doesn't building a hole without choices amount to building a hole with hazards and difficulties so arranged that you are required to play to certain spots? And if you fail to do so - you are in big trouble. That is, a penal hole (by the definition of 'penal') is going to be a hard hole.
Note that if the arrangement of hazards are such that playing choices are possible, you have a hole that is at once not penal and easier (at least for the average player).
What I am driving at is that the term 'penal' sheds little light about a hole. What sheds much more light is to use terms like 'hard' or 'difficult'. In part because they come closer to what is really going on. But more importantly because those everyday terms exist on an easy to understand continuum that runs from hard to easy and back again.
Which takes me back to one of my original questions. Is there such a thing as an easy penal hole? My guess is no, there is no such animal. By definition. It would follow that the phrase 'hard penal hole' is redundant. All of which suggests that there are problems with that age-old architectural terminology.
Bob
Bob
To me saying a hole is difficult or hard doesn't convey the meaning of a hole because those are sliding terms depending on one's ability. When used properly, "penal" does convey a sense of the character of a hole. For good players, yes, there are fairly easy penal holes. Isn't that why fairways have been allowed to be narrowed even on penal holes? I might think 40 yard fairways lined with bunkers (a penal hole) is difficult whereas a pro may think its not so difficult - being used to 30-35 (and often less) yard wide fairways lined with hazards. Its a matter of perspective that I admit is rather skewed by the top end (in the main touring pros) of golfers. In any case, I will stick with penal as a descriptor of a style of architecture because it makes absolute sense when the term is properly understood and used.
Ciao
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I played Kinglsey a handful of times a few summers ago and found the 9th hole more difficult/penal than the 2nd. Maybe it was the specific tee/pin combination on 9 that day - it was brutal. I really enjoyed the 2nd and became enemies with the 9th.
You know, I've had the opposite experience and fared slightly better there than on the 2nd, but you're right, it may be more penal, in that if you miss the green you've got your hands full.
I'm with you, Brian. Last summer I played #9 at 1 under in a few rounds. I've never made anything less than a 5 at #2. It has gotten to the point where I am a complete mental trainwreck on the tee.
I too would agree. #2 is just so demanding from the tee, whereas you have a little more room to maneuver on #9, especially from the south tees. I would say it is easier to make a 4 on #9 than it is on #2. #9 will spit out the occasional X on your scorecard, but I would say on average, scores tend to be higher on #2. Despite their difficulty, both holes are a blast to play (as opposed to many on this thread??).
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11th at The Old Course.