Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Tim_Weiman on January 26, 2002, 12:14:56 PM
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Many are probably aware of the famous description of Cypress Point as "the best seventeen hole course in the world".
This stems from criticism of #18.
The World Atlas of Golf described the situation as follows:
"If there is weak hole at Cypress Point, it is the 18th, which ordinarily should be the strongest hole on any golf course. It is a par-four dog leg going right and uphill to a green where it is hard to know where the flagstick is, leaving grave doubts as to what kind of putt must be faced...."
Based on my limited experience at Cypress Point, I've always felt criticism of this hole was overdone, largely because the hole seems so "mood appropriate".
By that I mean, the golfer has just been through some of the most dramatic holes in golf and to end on another dramatic note just doesn't seem right. Instead, I think Mackenzie sensed that an emotional cool down was appropriate.
Does any share this feeling? Conversely, can anyone detail something different they think Mackenzie should have done?
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Tim:
Yes, I feel exactly as you do.
How much higher could MacKenzie (and Raynor) get the golfer after 15-17? Why would he want to? I say 15-17 is the ultimate peak in all the golfing world and 18 serves to gently bring one back to reality.
Furthermore, I say the entire course plays as if it were a sexual interlude with 18 being the cigarette/hug after a golfing orgasm.
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calling Geoff Shakelford, but I don't believe the Dr. intended for one to "fall asleep" on the 18th! (Remember the plans for the tee and bridge)
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Gene,
A JakaB style analogy, but it illustrates your point perfectly!
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I think that another factor in Mackenzie's design of the 18'th is the location of the clubhouse.
It wasn't until I read Geoff's book on Cypress that I understood the view, but on page 52 is a photograph from the balcony overlooking the the 16'th green. I did not realize what a view the clubhouse has of that hole.
It's not possible to get into Mackenzie's mind, but one can speculate that once you fix the 16'th hole, and the clubhouse location, playing back up the hill for the 18'th (instead of another hole along the ocean), is the only way to complete the routing.
I agree that the criticism of the 18'th hole is overdone.
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I'm afraid I can't accept anti-climactic finishing holes as "appropriate" regardless of the preceeding spectacular experience. I sure wouldn't change Cypress one iota to "fix" the problem, but I'd rather have 1 more great hole than a "letdown" 18th.
Inverness is another fine course with an 18th hole that would be fine somewhere else except as the finisher. Bethpage Black is another one with the same affliction, I think. Going down a notch, Somerset Hills in NJ (Tillinghast) has a pretty bland 18th on an otherwise neat layout. Prestwick and Machrihanish also come to mind. Finally, I'm afraid I have to include TOC in the same category - Valley of Sin or not.
Any other first-class "17 hole" tracks to suggest as "2nd best"? TOC, maybe?
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Another layout that comes to mind, also in NJ, besides Somerset Hills, is Plainfield. After you play the 17th hole you feel like there must be one hole big time hole before you conclude the day. Nada!
The 18th is a gentle finishing hole that lacks the zest / punch / wow feeling you would expect from a course that provides so much.
As I'm sure many on GCA probably know the existing 18th was really the original 16th hole as two previous holes were abandoned with the building of today's practica area. The holes lost were added in the tunnel area and the expansion of the 12th into a superb par-5 that is one of the best of it's kind in America.
I've always wondered whether the existing 18th at Plainfield has held back the course in the minds of many people when it's overall standing is taken into account.
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18 at TOC is perfect. Something a bit quirky is the perfect way to end it. Who said a final hole had to be overly difficult?
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Yes, but didn't Mackenzie want the 18th tee on that rocky island?
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Dear Chris Kane,
I did.
Seriously - I make a lot of noise about strategic holes on this site, but a really good finishing hole cries out for TOUGH, to me. If the ground allows for heroic shots, I'll take that over subtle on a finisher, any day.
Like Cypress, Inverness and Bethpage, I think the 18th at TOC would be a fine hole someplace else on the course.
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Chipoat,
Well we'll have to agree to disagree.
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I knew I'd get a rise on my TOC nomination but I'll stick by it as "2nd best". Any other ideas?
Should we start a new thread on "what should a finishing hole be"? Can't believe that hasn't been done at least once, already.
Stanwich (CT) - site of next year's Mid-Am is another well known course with an anti-climactic finish.
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The eighteenth hole at CP could be saved by the removal of the trees that make an obstacle course off the tee. Some pruning of the trees on the right side of the driver landing areaa would also help.
When next you play the course, have a look at the area to the left and short of the green and you will see a very steep depression. I heard it mooted by one old time member of the club that a green placed above it and below the patio would have made a perfect site for the finishing hole
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I read about that bridge out to the island in Doak's book(?)
Is the island still there, it would seem like it would be easier now than 80 years ago. Has it been considered?
I have not played to comment on it.
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Ben Dewar:
Have you heard of the California Coastal Commission?
Chipoat:
While we obviously don't agree on this topic, I appreciate you bringing up the subject of TOC. I'm embarrassed to admit I never thought about the comparison to CP, but I think the same argument applies. I'd hate the Road Hole to be the finish. TOC, while quite different than CP, is another place I appreciate the emotional cool down.
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Chipoat:
I don't recall a thread on what makes sense for a finishing hole. Go ahead and start one.
Bob Huntley:
I can't remember the distances well enough.
If that tee and bridge had ever been built, wouldn't removing some trees on the right side have been a necessity circa 1930?
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Tim,
I am in Toronto and obviously was not aware. Am now.
Ben
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Tim Weiman
I'll take my emotional cooldown with my liquid cooldown - at the bar.
This is a good thread - all we can get is 2 lousy nominations? There's no other great 17 hole golf course worth mentioning??
Even golf nuts go out on Saturday night, I guess.
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I would nominate Pasatiempo in this category. #17 is a straightaway par 4 that really poses no problems or strategic interest. It does have an amazing sneakingly contoured green that has breaks that you would swear are not possible. The green however is not enough to lift this hole to the level of the rest of the course.
Another course I played recently that I really liked was Barona Creek, but I felt #18 was an aberration that didn't really go with the rest of the course. I didn't finish well on the hole so I can't speak to the hole from that perspective. However, it is 460 yds par 4 into the wind. There is a lake to the left and bunkering front right with a very narrow neck into the green, especially considering the length of the approach shot into the wind. The strange thing was the fairway wrapped around the bunker and curled down to the green, but there isn't enough slope there to allow the ball to feed onto the green unless you hit a hook in there so I'm not sure what the intent was there. Gib and some others have played there (outside of San Diego) and probably have much more insight into that hole than I do.
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Ben:
Sorry if the tone of my point about CCC was a little abrupt. I believe the CCC had a big influence on the Pelican Hill project and the resulting 28 years of permitting. Thus, I can't imagine the CCC ever letting something done in Carmel. Even more, I couldn't imagine the membership at CP having any interest in such an undertaking.
Chipoat:
Thanks to Ed Getka we now have three, though Pasatiempo never really provided the reflective moments that CP and TOC do when playing #18.
Now as for the 19th hole, maybe our thinking isn't that far apart. My favorite place in the world (Ballybunion) has an eigtheen hole that is hardly the high point of the round, but it always puts me in that reflective, emotional cool down mood while also providing a clear view of the 19th hole.
Nowhere else do I so much enjoy a beer (or several beers) after playing.
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Echo Ed on Pasatiempo, #17 is bland and #18 is weak as a finishing hole. #17 is big let down after #16.
I nominate Machrihanish. #18 is just a filler to get to #19 or back to #1 for another go round. ;)
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The 18th at Cypress Point may suffer in comparision to the other holes at CP - especially the imediately preceeding holes - but taken on its own merit I can think of holes on other great courses that are inferior. CPC is the greatest 18 I've run across.
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I haven't played it, but it's hard to imagine the 18th at Pasatiempo qualifies in this category - maybe you guys have something against a par 3 finisher?
I might have agreed prior to being enlightened on GCA :) that 18 should be a tough finisher. Now, after watching seemingly every course on the tube with the PGA Tour end with a 450+ yard yawn, I like shorter par 4s to finish - I think I read somewhere that many UK courses have shorter 18ths due to the preponderence of matchplay. I thought Olympic's 18th was pretty great, save the minor problems encountered with certain hole locations. I think it's been modified since - anyone know the result?
Also, I think I read in either TD's or GS's book that the 18th tee at CP wasn't built because they felt it couldn't withstand Mother Nature. Geoff's book in particular makes 18 look pretty cool, at least shortly after the course's opening. Count me as one of those who think anything would be a letdown after 15-17 - I like Gene's analogy.
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George,
I wasn't paying attention to the eighteenth hole reference when I posted about Pasatiempo. I pointed out the weak link at Pasatiempo which is #17. #18 at Pasatiempo is excellent. It provides a stern test for golfers coming to the final hole with the match on the line. Anything from 2 (unlikely) to 5+ is possible on that hole even if you hit the green with your first shot.
The green on 18 at Olympic is too flat now, at least at membership speed. When I played there one guy had to chip off the hillside above right of the hole (about 2'o'clock position) and his ball stopped ABOVE the hole which was absolutely impossible before the redo.
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Ed -
Sorry about the misread. I get it now.
Tough situation about Olympic's 18th - after seeing the mishap, I guess I could understand wanting some changes, but this would seem to be a tough pill to swallow if you were a member. Altering a fantastic green for basically what amounts to one days play every 10-20 years. :(
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Tim,
I understand the members not wanting to change a thing, I was simply not aware of the CCC.
Thanks
Ben
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It's pretty interesting that some of you describe #18 Cypress as a hole that MacKenzie wanted to offer a little cooling off after the holes preceding it--one even said something like the cigarette after sex!
Not at all--MacKenzie and Marion Hollins clearly wanted to keep the beat up on this finishing hole! GeoffShac's book provides all the documentation and evidence to prove what they wanted on that hole and that was 50 more yards from a tee placed out on the rocks! Geoff even supplied the elaborate drawings of the proposed suspension bridge to the back tee! This was in the beginning of the depression but despite that the club still kept the bridge and back tee idea alive as long as they could but eventually decided it was not only expensive to do but would likely have to be redone over again and maybe again!
As much as they might have wanted it the decision probably just came down to (again)--"It's never a good idea to F....with Mother Nature!"
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It's also interesting to speculate on GeoffShac's observations on hole CPC's #17 (and #16). It seems evident that Mother Nature got involved there too at some point!
Geoff believes he identified some original back tee markers on #17 from a piece of terra firma behind and almost to the right of #16 that clearly would have lengthened #17! But it appears Mother Nature must have ripped that terra firma away at some point!
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George Pazin
While I don't care much for par 3 finishers, that's another possible thread about "what should an 18th hole be?". I might do that one if nobody beats me to it (go ahead, someone).
However, as to this thread, all the par 3 #18's I've played have been pretty good! Pasatiempo, Garden City, East Lake and Congressional aren't bad holes, at all. They're better par 3's than the last holes at Cypress, TOC, Prestwick et al are as par 4's, IMO.
They're not my preference, but they also don't leave me as "flat" as the 4's discussed above. I can't use them as fodder for "great 17 hole golf courses".
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Tim:
You are right about tree removal on the 18th circa 1930.
Bob
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Tom Paul:
A couple points on the bridge and back tee idea for #18 at CP.
What is clear is that this plan was considered. What is unclear is what Mackenzie thought of the hole without the bridge and tee.
Do we know whether anyone associated with the project ever truly believed the back tee was realistic? Geoff indicates people like Mackenzie, Marion Hollins and other members were attracted to the idea. But, what were the opposing views? Was the resistence simply based on financial considerations? Or were there people who questioned the safety and practicality of the plan?
I can't find that in Geoff's book or anywhere else. Thus, I'm inclined to believe Mackenzie must have known what we see today was, most likely, going to be the hole.
While I believe the hole is brilliant as an "emotional cool down", perhaps even without the back tee it was a very hard hole circa 1930. That part isn't clear to me.
In any case, I like it as it is, just like I support #18 at TOC serving the same "emotional cool down" function.
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Re the baaack tee at CP's 18th. I do believe that after viewing the turbulent seas after a couple of winter storms, the members would have been somewhat reluctant to venture out on any sort of bridge then envisaged.
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Bob Huntley:
That's the point I was trying to make and why I think Mackenzie understood it would probably never happen.
What is your impression of the difficulty of this hole circa 1930?
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Tim:
I think with the clubs and balls of the day the 18th would have been quite difficult. However, the trees would not have enveloped the hole as they do now.
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It appears from GeoffShac's book on Cypress that #18 in MacKenzie's original plan (and later) very much called for a tee on the rocks adding 50yds to #18! That would have put the hole at a bit over 400yds.
It looks to me from the original drawing and also studying the only available aerial of #17 & #18 in GeoffShac's book that would have put the tee on the rock slightly to the right and behind #17 green! Samuel Morse apparently objected to this for safety reasons as he very much objected to MacKenzie's plan to put #14 more along the coastline with the driveway somewhere between #14 and #1 instead of to the right of #14!
It also appears that MacKenzie was juggling the pars of many holes around!
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Bob Huntley:
I guess if you buy into the "emotional cool down" theory #18 has actually improved with age, even if the hole could use some tree pruning.
Tom Paul:
I can't imagine Morse objecting to the idea of moving 17 Mile Drive inland for safety reasons and then also accepting the idea of building that bridge and tee. Seems like he would have objected to both proposals, as you suggest.
Of the two proposals, I'm more disappointed with his decision on #14 even though I think it is a very good hole as constructed.
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I rate the 18th at TOC as one of the finest finishing holes
in the game; ever so appropriate and a terrific change of pace over the 17th. Don't for a moment think it is easy when the heat is on.
People forget its inherant strategy: concentrate too hard on making it over the Valley of Sin and you wind up in three-putt territory at back of green: aka D.Sanders. Get too cute with
the approach and an emabarrasing bogey is on; it happens all the time. Yes, Rocca holed out for a birdie in 1995, but remember how his 2nd shot came back to his feet.
Also, don't fall for the trap of thinking it is a blast and mere flick; of course it is in favourable conditions, but 5 irons into the strong wind from hefty hitters is also commonplace. 370 yards is still 370 yards!
The silent seducer is the drive: aim for the big clock and you are home; either a slice or hook will be fine. But in a favourable wind, the green is on - time to get concerned!
When you aim for the green, a push will put you OOB, and I have personally witnessed this 7 times in the Dunhill Cup.
Also, being the 18th at TOC, it brings just a little more pressure to bear: goodness, what a fabulous hole, I wish I was there right now!
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Tim:
It appears Morse did object to both 17 mile drive inland of #14 (and between #1 & #14) and also the tee on the rocks on #18, both for safety reasons. The safety was for golfers though! It looks to me that the rock which #18 tee was to be on was almost behind #17 green, putting golfers on #17 fairway in danger of #18 back tee and vice versa from #17 when golfers walked forward off #18 tee! By safety he obviously did not mean safety for golfers going out and coming back on the bridge. I really don't think golfers would be dumb enough to take that bridge in the middle of a storm so fierce as to take it out!
Morse was also very concerned about perserving 17 mile drive and everything about it for the benefit of the public! He felt a tee on the rock on #18 would actually spoil the natural view for the public (probably another reason he felt 17 mile drive should be on the coast side of #14)!
Morse was obviously a good businessman and a practical one--he did own the Del Monte Corporation--am I right about that?
It also seems to me that MacKenzie and maybe even all the architects that collaborated on Cypress, including Alister, Hunter, Marion Hollins, Lapham and maybe even Egan may not have been half so practical as Morse.
Just take a look at the way Cypress looked in the extraordinary photos of every hole as the photographer followed MacKenzie around during that one round in the very beginning! Some of the bunkering looks incredibly "low profile" and consequently exposed to the wind. And some of the dunes and "imitation dunes" in close juxtaposition to some of the greens look to me like an accident waiting to happen, and most definitely a maintenance nightmare from time to time!
Some of the low-lying bunkering looked incredibly beautiful, almost delicate actually which would not seem to be very practical on that coastal site. As we know the "imitation dunes" at Pebble (on #17) were very much the same look and we do know they really were a maintenance nightmare!
Again, the suspension bridge on #18 was a substantial thing, if you look at the elaborate drawings of it in GeoffShac's book. Building it would have been quite expensive, no doubt, and times were tough in the depression. Although the club may have wanted it and that back tee too, obviously the thought or having to rebuild it after every random coastal storm was too much to look forward to. For this reason Morse's practicality was probably the best policy!
But the point is that MacKenzie wanted a tough finishing hole on #18--that's the way he designed it--but the purse strings obviously won out!
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Tom Paul:
I'm not questioning whether Mackenzie had ideas of a very tough finish. Rather, I just like how it turned out, even if unintentional. Typically, people expect a big finish, but CP is one of the few courses where some "emotional cool down" works, at least it does for me.
Tom, I'm big into the idea of mood changes on a golf course. CP does this beautifully in my opinion. By contrast, something like Oakmont starts and finishes with the same sort of mood. Ditto PV, my one criticism of Crump & Gang's work.
Paul Daley:
I've never played #18 at TOC "when the heat is on". And I don't deny it can be tricky even when not playing for the Open.
But, I do think it is the perfect "emotional cool down" hole. The walk towards the R&A clubhouse puts you in a reflective mood. The drive is not one that can easily spoil your chances for finishing up with par.
Certain finishing holes encourage you to think how happy you are to be where you are. Others have a spirit where you need to keep fighting and postpone reflection until the final putt is down.
For me, CP, TOC and Ballybunion are in the former category. An Oakmont, Winged Foot or Pine Valley are in the latter category.
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TimW:
I see, it's mood changes you're into! Then Merion would be the one for you!
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Tom Paul,
Merion does.....a little or not quite as much as a Crystal Downs. My favorite mood changer might be Burnham & Berrow.
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Personally, I happen to like the 18th at Cypress Point, and
don't agree it's "only" a 17-hole course!
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TEPaul:
You are quite right about S.F.B.Morse and his love of the Seventeen Mile Drive, but did you know that when he sold the land for MPCC's Shore Course to the club for one dollar, he also said that if they paid to route the Drive somewhat inland, they could build their new course right down to the beach? All they had to do was pay for the road work, which I understand was estimated at the time for around $50,000.00. The Club balked and an opportunity was lost.
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Bob,
Histories great blunders.
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MPCC is under-rated. Too bad they couldn't build all the
way to the shore because of being cheap! :'(
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Bob:
I did not know that about MPCC and what Morse recommended. I really don't know that much about the evolution out there--just what I've gotten from GeoffShac and his book.
I did hear something very interesting yesterday on the telecast from Venturi though at the end of the tournament. That was that there were lots planned along the water on what is now #6, 7, 8,9,10 and Morse bought back all those lots and moved them to the inland side of the course. His thought was the course would be so much better if houses did not obstruct the view and play of the course along the water.
I would say that might be THE all time dogged bullet!!
I love these little intersting historical vignettes and will repeat a most interesting personal one if you were not around when I posted it quite a long time ago about the Monterrey Peninula.
My old Dad played in a good number of US Amateurs and his goal was always to make the quarters so he could get into the Masters.
He hated talking about golf and so I never knew much about his career or experiences. He had a very dry sense of humor though and once he told me he thought he was going to make it at Pebble one time but the guy who was in the room next to him would fight with his wife all night every night and he just got tired out from lack of sleep having to listen to them.
A couple of years ago somebody on GCA posted a topic called "What's not to love about golf" and I told that to my mother who's now 86. She said; "Ah, yes, the game was so good to your father" and she proceeded to tell me about sitting around the fire one chilly evening at the lodge with my Dad beside the fire after he'd just lost in the US Amateur. And she said; "Funny it was just me, your Dad and Bob Jones!"
Well I couldn't believe it, never heard that before and I posted it on here. You can imagine the reaction and I told her about it a few days later! 86 year olds have to search their memories sometime and she sat there quietly for a time and said this: "Actually, there were four of us, your Dad, me, Bob Jones who such a nice man and told Dad that it was just a game and there's always next year but there was another nice man call Sam Moore or something!"
I said, you don't mean Samuel Morse do you? And she said; "Yes, that's the one, he owned Pebble Beach!" It is just amazing to me to think about that now; my mother knew nothing about golf and couldn't have cared less. To her it was a nice place, nice fire, nice drinks and a couple of guys who just happened to be nice men! Jeezus!
And what my father did tell me about that time was only the guy and his wife that kept him up every night--he told me it was Skee Riegal, a guy from Philadelphia and he won the Amateur. My mother and father were from New York and it wasn't for another 25 years until I met Skee Riegal and this whole thing fell into place! The year, which I actually had to look up, was 1947!
I saw Skee in the supermarket last year and I didn't mention to him about my Dad and all the late night arguing but I did ask him about that Amateur and Jones and he said he played a practice round with Jones out there then and he thinks it may have been one of the last or maybe the last times Jones ever played golf. Someboby on here put Jones's last round a bit later though.
But it was very interesting stuff--and to them it all seemed so normal! Wow!
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And someone said this discussion group was getting too "grill room" and "uninteresting"?
WOW. If you can't get into stories like this, you have no soul.
Thank you VERY MUCH, Tom.
I would note, for a certain SoCal purist, that this has incredibly cool story offers no comments on golf course architecture... but I'm too nice.
;)
TH
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You know, there are lots of interesting stories, I know, but what I said about my father not really liking to talk about golf was unfortunately so true.
Frankly, it wasn't until I got so interested in architecture that all this stuff started meaning so much to me--and that was only about five years ago. And as I said on here once, just before he died (9 years ago) I was hoping what he said to me that we had done it all and said it all was a true statement.
Well, unfortunately, I can see that wasn't true. He probably never thought to talk to me about all these little things because he didn't think I was interested--and I wasn't--not then, but I am now.
Man, I wish I could talk to him now with all that he knew and was part of. Just the architectural side of all this would be enough. Think of all the courses he belonged to throughout his life--an awesome array of them that all of us are dying to know the real histories and evolutions of. I have absolutely no idea what my father thought about architecture, we never discussed it one single time but I know he knew a great deal about it--even was part of the beginnings of some wonderful courses and what happened on so many others.
But he was also there in the 1940s-50s-60s-70-80s when many of these courses went careening through the so-called "Modern Age" distortions and redesigns. What did he think of that and what did he do in that era? What did he really think about it and what did he really think of an architect like Ross whose courses he must have belonged to about five of at one time or another in his life. And MacDonald and Raynor too. But Dick Wilson was the only one whose name I ever heard him mention--and of course Pete Dye because he was a good friend but that was very early in Pete's career and not a word was ever mentioned about architecture. And he probably played scores and scores of all these courses in his tournament travels. What would he say about them then and now if I could only ask him?
On that note there's a most interesting little story here about a man at Gulph Mills, a wonderul man who's well over ninety now. He was on our restoration master plan committee last year when we talked so much about the tree problems that have evolved over the years on our course. We had over twenty meetings and he came to every one and never said more than ten words.
One time we were talking about the trees and how they'd corrupted much of the design intent of the course, many of the shot angles, and he finally spoke up and said; "I know about that because I'm the one who planted them".
Oh My God, that was a moment to behold but then he said: "I've listened carefully to what's been said and when we planted them we didn't think about the things you're explaining here, we didn't think about things like shot angles and design intent and if you want me to I will tell the membership that!"
What a moment! That's the eras coming together in an extraordinary moment--damn nearly made us all cry!
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TEPaul:
Great story about the tree plantings.
Most of the guys who planted them meant well, but really
never thought about what would happen to the course in
the future when all those trees matured.
Glad to hear that someone actually understood that!
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Some have argued that Royal County Down is the best
17-hole golf course. Those folks don't like the man-made
lake on the 17th hole.
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Most of the great British links courses would move up in the rankings if you eliminated their 18th holes. The vast majority of those finishing holes simply get you back to the clubhouse. Off the top of my head, the only great links courses that have really strong finishing holes are Muirfield & Carnoustie.
Thoughts?
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MPS:
No way, just a couple of the Irish courses I played this summer have excellent finishing holes--Portrush and County Down!
Portrush's #18 is a very strong par 4 albeit on flattish ground and RCD's #18, although recently redesigned with the inclusion of many more flanking bunkers (very much in the theme of the rest of the course) is an awesome closing par 5, in strategy, intensity and scoring spectrum and has the recent pro tournament to very much show that fact!
As for #17 RCD being a weak hole I really don't buy that either! I admit that thing in the middle of the fairway (by no means a lake and actually a fairly disgusting little pond) could have a better feature alternated into its place but the green and green-end of #17 is excellent!
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TEPaul - Its been a while since I've played RCD & RP - a situation that I plan to remedy this summer - but as I recall, Portrush wouldn't lose a thing without its 18th. I agree that its a good hole but based on the absolute greatness of the preceding holes, Portrush would climb in the rankings as a 17 holer. In other words, the 18th is below average FOR PORTRUSH.
Maybe my terminology was misleading - when I said "really strong finishing holes" I meant holes that were above average for that course. Since I think the 18th at Portrush is below average FOR PORTRUSH - it certainly fails that criteria.
I'll give you County Down - you wouldn't want to take away the 18th there - but I'm still not sure it's ABOVE average for RCD, so is it a "strong finishing hole?" Along the same lines, you wouldn't want to take away the 18th at TOC. But is the 18th at TOC in the same class as the Road Hole? They are both worthy holes but they aren't the fantastic finishing holes you'd hope for.
I was just singling out Carnoustie & Muirfield as the unusual links courses that have finishing holes that are as good, if not better, than the other 17 on the course.
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Royal Aberdeen has a strong finish,though pale in comparision to the front nine, but a step above some of the back nine
In reference to another thread... Royal Aberdeen is a great members course.
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Other links courses with strong finishing holes:
Rye
St Enodoc
Royal Porthcawl
Hunstanton
Deal
Portmarnock
Lytham
Burnham and Berrow
Pennard
Saunton
Wallasey(?)
Sandwich (subtle)
Lossiemouth
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mps:
I guess everything is in the terminology used but the finishing holes on TOC, RCD and Portrush are all very good finishing holes, in my opinion. If one uses your terminology I guess it would mean they would have to be the most difficult hole on the course to do something, make birdie, save par, not screw up or whatever.
I think they all have their own kind of function though as a finishing hole and like any other offer golfers various temptations and risks/rewards if they're good and not if they're not good.
TOC's does that for birdie and can nip you in certain ways for sure! The others are somewhere in the middle ground probably of hard birdie, reasonable par and very much ready to hand you an other if you don't pay attention and execute. I don't think there's anything weak or uninteresting about any of them though for what they were designed to do!
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George Pazin said earlier in this thread he liked #18 at Olympic.
Sorry George, but I'm reminded by the current Olympic Club thread that I should have nominated it along with Inverness, Bethpage and TOC as one of my favorite 17 hole courses (in addition to CPC which started the thread).
#18 isn't a bad hole, per se - I just think it's a weak finisher and better suited to be elsewhere on the course.