Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Patrick_Mucci on March 18, 2011, 08:49:36 PM
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Golf%20Courses/NGLA-1903-w-overlay.jpg?t=1300213988)
In looking at the 1903 map, which may not be exactly precise, I was wondering how NGLA's Cape hole evolved.
We're told that the hole originally had the green to the right of its current location and that the "introduction" or "shifting" of the road to the clubhouse caused the green to be shifted to the left.
Macdonald's schematic, circa 1910, found in George Bahto's book, "The Evangelist of Golf" seems to show the road to the left of the green. Today, it's to the right of the green.
When was the change made ?
And, is the changed hole superior to the original ?
Secondly,
If Sebonic Inlet road existed as depicted, there's not a question in my mind that Macdonald ALWAYS intended for his ultimate clubhouse to be in its present location.
The road, yacht basin, bathing house, and especially the distance between the 18th and 1st fairways lead one to believe that he always wanted to site his clubhouse at its present site.
Add to that, his dislike for being too close to Shinnecock Hills, the absence of land by his initial 1st and 10th holes, the fact that the Shinnecock clubhouse would look down at that location (1st tee, 18th green) and his unpleasant departure from Shinnecock Hills, all leads to but one conclusion, the clubhouse was ALWAYS intended to be sited where it presently sits.
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Patrick,
Sebonac Inlet road was built in 1924, I believe.
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Patrick:
It was always my understanding (though perhaps wrong, I never really questioned it much) that Sebonac Inlet Road was built to access National's new clubhouse, well after the course was built. Is that really a 1903 map you posted?
The road to the right of current #14 green is clearly a bit of fill. The water to the right of #14 would have been a bay off the inlet before that.
I always wondered if the entrance to the old maintenance building, and that big archway over it, was not for a time the entrance to the clubhouse, with the driveway proceeding on what's now the maintenance road between #5 and #15 and on along the ridgeline.
It's also interesting to note that today's Sebonac Road, which crosses the 8th and 11th holes at National, did not connect up to the main highway to the west back then. It appears that when Macdonald built National, that road was nothing more than the driveway which accesses what is now Sebonack Golf Club, previously the Sabin estate.
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Here is a photo of the Cape from American Golfer, 1910. No Road?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Golf%20Courses/Old%20Photos/Old%20National%20Pics/CapeDrive.jpg?t=1300502506)
One from the fairway, 1914.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Golf%20Courses/Old%20Photos/Old%20National%20Pics/CapeGreen.jpg?t=1300502506)
A slightly different angle, 1910.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Golf%20Courses/Old%20Photos/Old%20National%20Pics/CapeGreen2.jpg?t=1300503636)
My understanding is that there was some disagreement about whether the road that ran across Sabin's property on Sebonack Neck (now Sebonack GC) was public or private. (The road was Cold Spring Road, which also ran through SHGC, and across NGLA (about where the Road crosses now,) and then up through Sabin's property. I may not be recalling the details exactly, but I believe that around 1923 the town agreed to deem the road private provided that they could have access along the inlet, and thus the inlet road was made public.
ADDED: I think there may have been a road already there, but I don't think it was considered public until the mid-1920s.
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Patrick:
It was always my understanding (though perhaps wrong, I never really questioned it much) that Sebonac Inlet Road was built to access National's new clubhouse, well after the course was built.
Is that really a 1903 map you posted?
Tom, this was the 1903 Map Bryan Izatt posted.
One more map for the mix; from the 1903 U.S.G.S. - State of New York survey.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/NGLAUSGSTopoMap1903.jpg)
The road to the right of current #14 green is clearly a bit of fill. The water to the right of #14 would have been a bay off the inlet before that.
I always wondered if the entrance to the old maintenance building, and that big archway over it, was not for a time the entrance to the clubhouse, with the driveway proceeding on what's now the maintenance road between #5 and #15 and on along the ridgeline.
I've always been puzzled by the stone entrance to the Superintendent's home.
It seemed to ornate to be an entrance to a maintainance area and home.
Perhaps it was an entrance or even a service entrance to NGLA.
But, if the map is correct, then the road leading to the current entrance was in place in 1903, making the current site a natural
It's also interesting to note that today's Sebonac Road, which crosses the 8th and 11th holes at National, did not connect up to the main highway to the west back then. It appears that when Macdonald built National, that road was nothing more than the driveway which accesses what is now Sebonack Golf Club, previously the Sabin estate.
The 1907 advertisement for the Shinnecock Inn may be the key to that issue.
The ad claims that new roads, providing those views were now in place.
The old road didn't come close to Cold Spring Pond, the new road parralleled it and then cut through the 8th and 11th holes at NGLA
Mike,
If you look at the 1903 Map that Bryan posted, you can see that the road did exist.
That road is where Sebonic Inlet road is today.
So, I doubt that the road didn't exist until 1924.
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Here is the Plasticine model from the 1914 Golf Illustrated article. Note that there is a road visible near the tee.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/NGLA-CAPE-plasticine-Merged.jpg?t=1256520309)
Here is Whigham's diagram from his 1909 Scribner's article on the course. Note the road.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Whighams-Cape-Diagram.jpg?t=1256520352)
So while the road may not have been a public access road, it looks like there was a road a bit inland from the hole.
ADDED:
Actually looking back at the first picture I posted (from behind the tee) I can barely make out what looks like it may have been a road running diagonally along the hill.
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David:
The road you mention (and the bridge pictured) is the entrance drive to the maintenance facility, and the maintenance road that I mentioned earlier. Perhaps these were a designated road prior to the construction of National [that's what we would see on a 1903 map], and were replaced at a later date because the club didn't like people driving through to get to the bay.
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The old gates by Salinetti’s house and the Eden green were donated by Willie Vanderbilt, Jr and served as the main entrance to the club and its clubhouse, meandering up thru the maintenance area and then went thru the course to the clubhouse. (Macdonald bitched because the original price for moving them from Vanderbilts yachting area was about $600 which the club had to absorb)
This all changed when George Borne donated the present Macdonald gate entrance and this is when 14-green was moved inland, killing the original Cape idea, and the new green complex for the 17th was built
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Tom is correct, and the current Sebonac Inlet Road runs right between the words Sebonac and Creek on Whigham's diagram. The archway at the entrance of the maintenance road probably does mean that this was the main entrance in the early years of the clubhouse.
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This may help;
1912;
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5099/5404754070_2a79ebbbd8_o.jpg)
1915;
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5056/5517268239_d01e3d6a51_b.jpg)
Really doesn't look like much more than a sandy/dirt path, single-lane "roads" in that part of LI being what they were at that time, something akin to a cart path.
I'm not sure i understand the basic premise here either. If CBM wanted the green in today's location, what exactly was stopping him from putting it there originally?
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Although crudely drawn, it does appear from the description that CBM originally had his 18th gree (which was originally the 9th) further away from the bay, and almost running through where today's clubhouse is. In fact, it appears to run to the left of a big bunker drawn, instead of to the right.
This article appeared in July 1907, and was the first public appearance of the routing known.
Of course, this was the plan prior to the fire that burned the Shinnecock Inn in April 1908, that forced the club to build a clubhouse which they moved to its present location.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5297/5424616245_133c695c66_o.jpg)
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Mike Cirba,
What are you talking about? Wasn't Patrick's original "premise" contemplating the location of the Cape green, not the 18th green? It was the Cape green that was eventually moved, from its original intended location to a point inland.
He also considers the eventual location of the clubhouse, but I don't see why you think the location of the 18th green (then the 9th) was being considered.
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David,
Don't be purposefully obtuse.
Patrick's original contention is that he wanted to locate the clubhouse where he eventually built it all along.
He wrote;
The road, yacht basin, bathing house, and especially the distance between the 18th and 1st fairways lead one to believe that he always wanted to site his clubhouse at its present site.
That's apparently not the case at all as it seems his original 18th (9th) hole as drawn would have cruised right through it.
Also, what was preventing him from locating the cape green in today's location in the first place if it was a better hole from there?
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George, Tom, J,
Thanks for the responses.
In looking at the 1903 Map, it appears that Sebonic Inlet Road may have been THE road that cut through the Superintendent's front yard, to the maintainance building and then on up to the club house.
Look at how it starts distancing itself from Bulls Head Bay once it skirts # 14 and then curls around up to where today's clubhouse is.
This would have the road bisecting # 13, paralleling # 14 then splicing between holes 5 & 15, 16 & 2, behind or infront of # 1 green to the clubhouse.
I can see why CBM would want that road moved.
But, with the road in existance in 1903, there's no doubt in my mind that at the end of that road they found their ideal location for a clubhouse on their initial ride.
That clubhouse site stands out so glaringly, high up on the bluff with gorgeous views, far away from being under the eyes of the Shinnecock Hills clubhouse, and far away from the North Highway and Railroad Tracks, which were CBM's stated objectives.
George,
Relative to today's green, where was the original cape green ?
As Tom Doak alluded to, Sebonic Inlet Rd, as it parallels # 14 fairway seems to exist strictly due to fill as it flanks the water to the East.
So, I'm wondering, was it down by the tidal pool short of today's green, right on the water, close to today's Sebonic Inlet rd ?
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Here's what CBM wrote about his clubhouse location.
For those not following the mess on the NGLA thread, I've contended that CBM's apparently needing to use the Shinnecock Inn for a clubhouse, which was 1.45 miles away from Peconic Bay, largely dictated an out-and-back routing along a generally narrow stretch, and also meaning he could only use 1/4 mile of that beautiful waterfront along Peconic Bay, and was therefore unable to fully utilize the 450 acres at his disposal, much of which is today the beatiful property of Sebonack GC.
When he routed the golf course in late 1906 and into 1907, he was somewhat land-locked based on his decision to use the Shinnecock Inn as his starting and ending points.
Sometimes, non-golf determinants drive what's possible.
Patrick is apparently trying to continue in his mode of CBM as Superman, who not only routed all 18 holes of a bramble-covered swampland on two days on horseback, but also now mystically envisioned the site for the clubhouse at the same time. ;) I understand hero-worship, but this is myth-making on a new scale! ;D
Here's what CBM wrote about the matter. Note that he was slightly incorrect, in that the Shinnecock Inn burned to the ground in April 1908, not 1909.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5179/5419366512_778e425aa7_b.jpg)
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Here's what CBM wrote about his clubhouse location.
For those not following the mess on the NGLA thread, I've contended that CBM's apparently needing to use the Shinnecock Inn for a clubhouse, which was 1.45 miles away from Peconic Bay, largely dictated an out-and-back routing along a generally narrow stretch, and also meaning he could only use 1/4 mile of that beautiful waterfront along Peconic Bay, and was therefore unable to fully utilize the 450 acres at his disposal, much of which is today the beatiful property of Sebonack GC.
Mike, again, you're reply is agenda driven.
Macdonald was using the Shinnecock Inn as his TEMPORARY clubhouse, NOT his permanent clubhouse.
When he routed the golf course in late 1906 and into 1907, he was somewhat land-locked based on his decision to use the Shinnecock Inn as his starting and ending points.
He had TWO starting and finishing points, his temporary clubhouse, the Shinnecock Inn and his final clubhouse, the current site, thus, his out and back routing was predetermined.
Sometimes, non-golf determinants drive what's possible.
Not in this case.
Macdonald would NEVER select a clubhouse site that was in the shadow of the Shinnecock clubhouse.
He stated that he wanted to get as far away from Shinnecock as possible, as far away from the North Highway and Railroad as possible, thus, today's current site, was always his intended site. The Shinnecock Inn was just a temporary site.
Patrick is apparently trying to continue in his mode of CBM as Superman, who not only routed all 18 holes of a bramble-covered swampland on two days on horseback, but also now mystically envisioned the site for the clubhouse at the same time. ;)
That's absolutely correct.
The road, as depicted in the 1903 New York State Topo goes right to the clubhouse site, exposing an incredible view, one perhaps superior to Shinneock's.
In addition, CBM would NEVER site his clubhouse in the shadow of the Shinnecock clubhouse.
He wanted to remove himself as far away from Shinnecock as possible. He stated so.
He stated that he wanted to be far away from the roads and railroads and used 3 miles from Southampton, I believe, to describe his ideal location.
In addition, if you weren't going to site NGLA's clubhouse in its present site, you wouldn't leave that enormous gap of land between today's 18th and 1st fairway, you'd shift the 1st fairway closer to Peconic Bay. But, that didn't happen. Instead CBM left an enormous gap between those two holes, and that was because that's where he ALWAYS intended to site his permanent clubhouse.
Your agenda prevents you from seeing the logic to siting the clubhouse at its present location, from the get-go.
I understand hero-worship, but this is myth-making on a new scale! ;D
When you examine the 1903 New York State Topo, with the terminus of Sebonic Inlet rd and all of the other factors described by CBM, the present site was always the site he had in mind for his clubhouse.
George Bahto, TEPaul and I had this discussion in 2003 and all agreed with me at that time.
Eventually, like Jeff Brauer, you'll become entitled to my opinion ;D
Siting the clubhouse there isn't genius, it's common sense combined with a desire to get out from under Shinnecock Hills's shadow,
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Mike Cirba,
No need to spread the nastiness to yet another thread. If I was being obtuse it comes naturally was not "purposeful."
I understand Patrick's contentions, but I don't place much faith that the "crudely drawn" 1907 map is a reliable source for the exact location of either the first tee or the 18th green.
And I am again left to wonder, what you are talking about regarding the Cape hole? First you wrote:
I'm not sure i understand the basic premise here either. If CBM wanted the green in today's location, what exactly was stopping him from putting it there originally?
In this last post you wrote:
Also, what was preventing him from locating the cape green in today's location in the first place if it was a better hole from there?
Patrick didn't write that CBM moved it to create a better hole. He asked about the evolution of the changes to the hole. When and why it was moved, whether it was a better hole?
So I agree that you don't understand his premise, but I am still left wondering what you were talking about? It seems you may have been talking about the 18th green in the first instance, and then switched course to the Cape in the second when you realized the first didn't make sense.
But then that it is probably just my natural obtuseness kicking in again.
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*
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For those not following the mess on the NGLA thread, I've contended that CBM's apparently needing to use the Shinnecock Inn for a clubhouse, which was 1.45 miles away from Peconic Bay, largely dictated an out-and-back routing along a generally narrow stretch, and also meaning he could only use 1/4 mile of that beautiful waterfront along Peconic Bay, and was therefore unable to fully utilize the 450 acres at his disposal, much of which is today the beatiful property of Sebonack GC.
When he routed the golf course in late 1906 and into 1907, he was somewhat land-locked based on his decision to use the Shinnecock Inn as his starting and ending points.
Sometimes, non-golf determinants drive what's possible.
Mike, I still think you are guessing on this--have we really seen anything that shows he would have preferred more land directly on the water? CBM may very likely believe that he did indeed fully utilize the 450 acres and that the land best suited for golf was more important than land merely (not to minimize the beauty of the area mind you) on the water.
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(PS Mike, please remind me to stay on your good side!)
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(PS Mike, please remind me to stay on your good side!)
Andy,
I'd prefer that Mike not turn this into yet another one those threads, so I think we should just ignore the nonsense and insults, including the bit about trying to shift the other NGLA thread over here.
Patrick raised a few specific issues and I think we should address them rather than engaging Mike in his various pet theories.
Besides, I don't think CBM ever indicated that NGLA would NEVER have a clubhouse of its own, only that they would use the Shinnecock Inn initially, so it is probably worth considering what CBM might have been considering initially.
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Andy,
Remember, that initially, CBM didn't buy the land behind the current 1st tee.
That purchase, 2.5 acres, I think, came later.
If he wanted more waterfront property, he could have purchased it.
But, you have to consider the terrain on the water, on the land to the West and South of the present 18th green.
It's certainly very pitched, very steep, hardly the land for golf.
In addtion, If CBM had continued further west, beyond the current 18th hole, how was he to get back to his special holes, the Alps and Redan, and then, back to his original 18th green. He couldn't, unless he was building a 27 hole golf course, which we know he wasn't interested in.
The water didn't hold the lure that we have today.
It was his holes that held his interest, not the views.
I find the 1903 New York State map very interesting in terms of clubhouse siting and the evolution of the 14th hole.
Macdonald stated that he found a better site, a better hole for the Eden than existed at TOC, due to the fact that a topped shot couldn't reach the green due to the presence of the intervening Sebonac Creek.
From there, it would appear that the tee for his Cape is immediately to the left of the Eden Green.
It has to be there, or perhaps a little further East, because that's where the water that the tee shot has to traverse is located.
So, my question, especially for George Bahto, is, where was the original green, relative to the current green ?
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Pat the original green was out in the water just about as far as where that tidal water surfaces - sort of in line with the present bunker short, right of the present green.
If I had the time I'd do an overlay but i'm not sure what the point is. The hole was moved and lengthened for a couple reasons.
Players downwind were getting close to driving the green - pissing him off and altering the basic coincept of his hole.
Also, of course, the new road to the new gate, yacht basin and bathing beach seemed to be more important to the overall interests of the club and its membership.
He must have had a heart attack thinking about moving that green inland ;D
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George,
Would the left side of the original green be near the current left side of Sebonic Inlet road near the tidal basin ?
I'm trying to relate the schematic in your book to the google earth image.
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In re CBM's desire to always have the clubhouse (when built) in its current location, I can't imagine him wanting anything else, as much time as I've spent there. How could anyone in their right mind look west from Peconic's (then 8th hole & now 17th) tee and not want it where it now sits ?? I had the pleasure of carting with George Bahto at Tom's Renaissance Cup last autumn at the marvelous Common Ground in Denver, and I learned just how much antipathy there was between CBM and Shinnecock. That would be reason enough for CBM to site his clubhouse as far as possible away from Stanford White's masterpiece. As it is, sitting in the birdgage ranks only second in my pantheon of favorite places in the world to standing on the back tee of Peconic.
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Players downwind were getting close to driving the green - pissing him off and altering the basic coincept of his hole.
Also, of course, the new road to the new gate, yacht basin and bathing beach seemed to be more important to the overall interests of the club and its membership.
He must have had a heart attack thinking about moving that green inland ;D
George,
Will you explain a bit about how you came to these two conclusions? (The part about how he must have had a heart attack needs no explanation!)
Thanks.
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jkinney,
I agree that the current location seems to be the obvious one.
Also, once the routing was determined there were basically two choices, one at each end of the out and back. It is speculation on my part but I have a hard time believing he would have built the clubhouse right next to the Inn. If he wanted the clubhouse at that end of the course he could have put it there after the Shinnecock Inn burned down.
I also suppose one could argue that he wanted to try to split the out-and-back into two nines, with a clubhouse somewhere in the middle. But the holes don't easily split at the middle into two nines. Also, given his love for the old course, the out and back makes more sense.
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David,
NGLA didn't own the property directly behind the current 9th green, next to the Inn until more recently, so that could never be the site.
J,
The clubhouse, in its present site, wasn't an afterthought, a default site that only occured when the SI burned down.
The routing had been determined by the time the SI burned down.
The donut hole or gap between CBM's 9th and 10th holes was intentional, it was where he always intended to place his permanent clubhouse.
There's no way in the world that CBM would have sited a clubhouse, down below, in the shadow of Shinnecock's clubhouse.
That majestic site, up on the bluff, far from Shinnecock, the North Highway and Railroad tracks leaps out at anyone riding that property.
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jkinney - yes that was fun out at Common Ground
You know, I think that course is a lot better than the ranking/ratings and notices it gets - I could take a steady diet of that course
Clubhouse: CBM noted he was trying to conserve money by not building a new clubhouse in the beginning (see how conservative the guy was - watta guy :P) - so the Inn would have worked perfectly until they built up the membership .......... if I remember correctly, that last piece of land by the clubhouse was a later purchase (I have two Deeds (or copies, thereof) for properties around here in the office but it would take a CE or someone to figure out the longitude and latitude information (does that mean I own something out there ;D
David, not sure what you mean, but whenever the players were hitting balls beyond where he originally anticipated (altering the hole strategies in any way) he modified those holes or changed the strategies in order to reestablish the intent of the hole he envisioned. If it mean moving a tee, adding a bunker (as he added the PN on #8), moving bunkers, moving greens, as he did on 17 and 14, that’s what he did for all those years.
The bathing beach: in order to get there and return you had to walk across the 18th fairway -big problem for the players
The yacht basin was very important for most of the “big guys” came in their yachts: J P Morgan and his (over) 300-foot long yacht, Corsair, had such a draft it couldn’t get too close to the shore so they had to sen smaller vessels out to get the people off. George Borne, Vanderbilt - most had yachts - much easier for them (and, of course, much more dramatic - if you’ve got it - flaunt it!) than driving out there on those roads at the time or taking the train.
Traffic from the yacht basin to the clubhouse on the hill was also a problem. Changing the entrance gate location solved the beach and yacht basin problem and gave him the room he needed to make #17 longer.
Also, the new gate entrance negated all the traffic thru the course from the Eden green up thru the holes on each side, up to the clubhouse. The traffic thru the course in the beginning wasn’t bad but as the membership grew it became a problem ............ imagine some of those wealthy members having to wait to putt as some old Packard or Rolls drove by the green.
So in the end, altering the Cape hole to make room for the long entrance road was something he would have to give up. ............. (but look what he did - he mucked up the definition of his (invented) Cape hole
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George Bahto,
Do you think that the 17th at Maidstone was a tribute to the Cape Hole at NGLA ?
In looking at the pictures that David Moriarty posted, especially where they're teeing off, it would seem that the tee for the original Cape presents a different angle of attack than any of today's tees.
Could it be that a tee was closer to the road by the water, versus today's tees ?.
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Bill Salinetti and I went back there one time and checked out the old foundation - very cool back there
Pat do you think they now own the area were the Inn was ???? I'm not sure
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George,
I'm not so sure that the inlet to Bulls Head Bay had the width or the draft to accomodate large yachts.
CBM's site for the yacht basin was a tiny nook adjacent to Ram Island.
There's very little room to accomodate yachts, especially large yachts, and there's even less room to manueuver in that mini harbor.
I tend to view that aspect as "promotional" rather than substantive.
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Pat, I just checked the copy I have of the old blueprint and that print only indicates a single tee, even though he was going to put 3 tees on each hole, so the inicated tee on the print would be the champtionship tee. I also looked at two things I have and everything points to that tee just to the left of the Eden green, down by the water's edge, is the original tee. (that's been a "given" for a long time)
and if you look at the back of those scorecard drawings near the beginning of this thread you can see the location of 14 tee
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Pat, the Hurricane of 1938 altered everything and virtually blew the yacht basin away. I've seen pictures of large yachts anchored out there - but, you might be right about the Corsair not being able to get in.
Out at Westhampton (during the storm of '38) boats came in three fairways on the (NLE) Oneck course
the story about the Corsair is very cool (not quite a cool as J P Morgan, though)
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The telescope through which the manager identified members yachts coming into Peconic Bay still sits in the bird cage and is in working order. The new back tee on Cape is slightly to the right of the others and so restores some of the intent of the original Cape design. However the original (prior to the present Sebonac Inlet Rd. routing) looks to have been a better hole - especially when factoring in the old clubs and balls. Mind you, I consider the present Cape one of the great short par 4's currently in existence. But would it ever be cool to go back in a time machine and play the old one with hickory shafts and gutta percha balls, especially with the SW trades quartering against from the tee !
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George,
I think it was Bill Salinetti who told me that the property line used to be pretty tight to the 9th green until the club bought the property in modern times.
The tee that sits down by the water, to the left of # 13 green, seems tiny, especially in comparison to the area in David's photo.