Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Bryan Izatt on February 21, 2011, 12:51:34 PM
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I know it's probably not, but it did strike me that way when my wife and I played it last week. It is a FL residential course that's been opened to public play to try to bring in a little extra money.
Like many residential courses, the routing has to accommodate the housing, but it would be nice if the course had some flow. On this one there were outrageous distances between one hole and the next. There were trips of 500 yards, 550 yards, 650 yards and 760 yards between holes on the course. Now, it was a cart course, but my wife insists on walking the whole course, and the parts in between, and these and other inter-hole walks made the course more like a 27 hole walk. Even on a cart it was egregious.
One other annoying (and sometimes dangerous) feature of the course, was that there were 5 instances where you had to walk/drive back from the green toward the fairway to reach the exit to the next hole. There were also four holes where you entered the hole and had to walk/drive back to the tees.
I'd challenge anyone to find the routing on the attached aerial.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/MLRouting-1.jpg)
The most egregious hole design involved a 760 yard trip to get to the tee. In the picture below, you enter from the top left. At the corner of the path there is a warning sign to beware of golfers teeing off. Of course you can't see the tee around the corner through the bush and trees, with the mens tees some 200 yards back from the corner. And, of course, waiting at the corner places you about 180 to 220 yards from the tee in the prime sliced landing area. Most people playing up to the green would take their cart up there, only to find that they need to go back towards the tee and into the driving zone to get around the lake to get to the green and the next tee. When we were there, there were four groups scattered around this hole. An absolutely silly piece of design work.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/ML8-1.jpg)
As a last point on what were they thinking, there was a 200 yard par 3 with a fence and trees down the right side and a constructed ridge and mounds that were maybe 12 to 15 feet high down the left side of the hole. The tees were lined up down the corridor, except for the back tee. That one they had displaced about 20 yards left so that it was directly in line with the ridge of mounds. It was set down in the mounds. The hole was totally blind from there. No view of any part of the green or the flag. No aiming pole. Just silly.
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Oh Bryan...why do you bring out my evil side with this provocative question? ;)
"The Country Club of the Poconos at Big Ridge" in Marshall's Creek, PA makes your course look like an intimate, classy, well-conceived little routing.
It literally traverses 12 miles from the first tee to the 18th green, and if you think the architect found some good holes in that safari you'd be mistaken.
Absolutely the worst golf course on the planet in terms of routing and architecture.
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Mike,
I harboured no illusions that there wasn't a worse routing out there with more outrageous distances between holes. I was just venting. I assume that following the routing in the Poconos was fairly straightforward and that there were fairly (totally) isolated playing corridors.
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Bryan,
I'm not sure...I almost got lost and never finished. ;)
The routing is just amazing...I would almost send people there to see it because it defies description but i'd be concerned I might contribute to the shrinking number of golfers in recent years.
And I know you were venting, that's ok. ;D
I moved last November and now the Pocono course is only about 1/2 hour from my house, so I have that going for me. ;)
***EDIT***
Bryan...this is the closest resolution I can use on Google Earth and still get all 18 holes into the frame, and I'm honestly not sure I've gotten all of them. You can see some up in the top middle, and others stretched miles away down in the lower left.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5140/5465201353_749d5cc688_o.jpg)
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Ah Mike: Spring is upon us as we get to banter that famous phrase "the worst goldf course ever designed and actually built is Country Club of the Poconos at Big Ridge". I can almost see the tulips and daffodils peaking thru the melting snow !
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Mike I looked at that aerial and Brando came to mind:
"The horror. The Horror." :-)
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Anyone want to comment on the Greg Norman course at PGA West in Palm Springs?
I understand that maybe it has been revised and is a bit better, and at least they didn't blow it up like they did the Norman course at Miribel in Scottsdale.
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Challenge accepted, Bryan!
I didn't look up the course on the internet and I haven't played it. I actually still don't know the name. Did I get close?
I'm happy to say I've never played a course routed this poorly.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-IFhWnvMaSec/TWK81WvGI4I/AAAAAAAAAJY/qJNRncDUQb4/s1600/challenge%2Baccepted.png)
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Alex,
Thanks for playing the game. You've got two holes right - 7 and 8. I'll give you one hint - #1 is the one you have labeled as 10.
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That's funny...the fact that #7 and #8 are correct given their position on Alex's guess is alarming.
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Alex,
Thanks for playing the game. You've got two holes right - 7 and 8. I'll give you one hint - #1 is the one you have labeled as 10.
I'm actually relieved I wasn't correct. I could've told you whoever routed this was insane before, so if I had gotten it correct I do believe that would have put my mental state into question. Via your hint I think I've got it now, but boy do I hope I'm wrong!
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Alex,
Thanks for playing the game. You've got two holes right - 7 and 8. I'll give you one hint - #1 is the one you have labeled as 10.
I'm actually relieved I wasn't correct. I could've told you whoever routed this was insane before, so if I had gotten it correct I do believe that would have put my mental state into question. Via your hint I think I've got it now, but boy do I hope I'm wrong!
Well the only other option I could find is even worse... using you numbers as the second number referencing the layout I suspect...
1=10; 2=11; 3=9; 4=1; 5-8=5-8; 9=12; 10=13; 11=14; 12=15; 13=16; 14=17; 15=18; 16=1; 17=2 & 18=3
Aqua Range with putting green near the 16th tee.
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Alex,
Thanks for playing the game. You've got two holes right - 7 and 8. I'll give you one hint - #1 is the one you have labeled as 10.
I'm actually relieved I wasn't correct. I could've told you whoever routed this was insane before, so if I had gotten it correct I do believe that would have put my mental state into question. Via your hint I think I've got it now, but boy do I hope I'm wrong!
Well the only other option I could find is even worse... using you numbers as the second number referencing the layout I suspect...
1=10; 2=11; 3=9; 4=1; 5-8=5-8; 9=12; 10=13; 11=14; 12=15; 13=16; 14=17; 15=18; 16=1; 17=2 & 18=3
Aqua Range with putting green near the 16th tee.
THat cannot be right given your previous comment... wow
10-14=1-5; 1=6; 7-8=7-8... but wait 9 must be 9???????? 10-13=15-18; 14-16=4-6; 17-18=2-3????????? Come on... ahs to be it.
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this is not a golf course but just a group of holes.
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I'm enjoying this game. How about this? I think I have 16 of the 18 correct, but really who knows? 6&14 are interchangable so I guessed.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ht3I22pWVFg/TWMAHpxdZdI/AAAAAAAAAJg/4o7sIt4QtdI/s1600/challenge%2Baccepted.png)
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If this routing is correct, then there are at least five, possibly six greens closer to the 8th tee than the 7th green is.
Might be the most ridiculous one I've ever seen.
It's like somebody built 18 holes on a property and then numbered them later.
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If there's any justice, these courses will be plowed under and made into more housing. The homeowners are already underwater, might as well pour some more on them for being dumb enough to buy property located next to such an egregiously awful layout!
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be careful. they will probably renumber the holes based on the best idea on this thread...and give you credit on the scorecard for the routing.Career killer.
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Ah, Greg, I know this was your first try, but 4=1 and 16=1??? We're all into recycling and reuse, but poor old 4 is feeling left out. ;)
Alex,
Thanks for playing the game. You've got two holes right - 7 and 8. I'll give you one hint - #1 is the one you have labeled as 10.
I'm actually relieved I wasn't correct. I could've told you whoever routed this was insane before, so if I had gotten it correct I do believe that would have put my mental state into question. Via your hint I think I've got it now, but boy do I hope I'm wrong!
Well the only other option I could find is even worse... using you numbers as the second number referencing the layout I suspect...
1=10; 2=11; 3=9; 4=1; 5-8=5-8; 9=12; 10=13; 11=14; 12=15; 13=16; 14=17; 15=18; 16=1; 17=2 & 18=3
Aqua Range with putting green near the 16th tee.
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Greg,
A much better effort until the emoticons kicked in.
Alex,
Thanks for playing the game. You've got two holes right - 7 and 8. I'll give you one hint - #1 is the one you have labeled as 10.
I'm actually relieved I wasn't correct. I could've told you whoever routed this was insane before, so if I had gotten it correct I do believe that would have put my mental state into question. Via your hint I think I've got it now, but boy do I hope I'm wrong!
Well the only other option I could find is even worse... using you numbers as the second number referencing the layout I suspect...
1=10; 2=11; 3=9; 4=1; 5-8=5-8; 9=12; 10=13; 11=14; 12=15; 13=16; 14=17; 15=18; 16=1; 17=2 & 18=3
Aqua Range with putting green near the 16th tee.
THat cannot be right given your previous comment... wow
10-14=1-5; 1=6; 7-8=7-8... but wait 9 must be 9???????? 10-13=15-18; 14-16=4-6; 17-18=2-3????????? Come on... ahs to be it.
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And, the winner of the routing contest is: ALEX MILLER (now if only I could figure out how to get the emoticon buttons to work). For this you win a round of golf with me at Bandon (at your own expense, of course).
With some embarrassment about my own confusion on the routing, I have to admit that I misstated originally that 7 and 8 were correct in your first try. In fact, only 8 was correct. So you need to interchange your 7 and 17 to be correct.
What confuses me is that with a blank slate housing development on flat Florida scrub land that the architect could come up with this routing and all the back and forth on tees and greens and between holes.
In fairness, I was in a grouchy state on the 7th hole when I thought of this thread. We were well into a 2.5 hour front nine behind two foursomes of putt-them-all-out members who were grinding. And the following twosome had driven into us on #7. And then, I almost beaned my wife waiting on the corner at 8 while I drove. And it looked likely that we weren't going to finish before dark.
The good news - the members dropped out after 9, and we finished the back in 1.5 hours, despite the long walks for my wife. And, it only cost $55.
But, I don't think I'll be going back any time soon.
I'm enjoying this game. How about this? I think I have 16 of the 18 correct, but really who knows? 6&14 are interchangable so I guessed.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ht3I22pWVFg/TWMAHpxdZdI/AAAAAAAAAJg/4o7sIt4QtdI/s1600/challenge%2Baccepted.png)
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Ah, Greg, I know this was your first try, but 4=1 and 16=1??? We're all into recycling and reuse, but poor old 4 is feeling left out. ;)
Alex,
Thanks for playing the game. You've got two holes right - 7 and 8. I'll give you one hint - #1 is the one you have labeled as 10.
I'm actually relieved I wasn't correct. I could've told you whoever routed this was insane before, so if I had gotten it correct I do believe that would have put my mental state into question. Via your hint I think I've got it now, but boy do I hope I'm wrong!
Well the only other option I could find is even worse... using you numbers as the second number referencing the layout I suspect...
1=10; 2=11; 3=9; 4=1; 5-8=5-8; 9=12; 10=13; 11=14; 12=15; 13=16; 14=17; 15=18; 16=1; 17=2 & 18=3
Aqua Range with putting green near the 16th tee.
perhaps 1 is no longer the loneliest number i suppose
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And, the winner of the routing contest is: ALEX MILLER (now if only I could figure out how to get the emoticon buttons to work). For this you win a round of golf with me at Bandon (at your own expense, of course).
With some embarrassment about my own confusion on the routing, I have to admit that I misstated originally that 7 and 8 were correct in your first try. In fact, only 8 was correct. So you need to interchange your 7 and 17 to be correct.
What confuses me is that with a blank slate housing development on flat Florida scrub land that the architect could come up with this routing and all the back and forth on tees and greens and between holes.
In fairness, I was in a grouchy state on the 7th hole when I thought of this thread. We were well into a 2.5 hour front nine behind two foursomes of putt-them-all-out members who were grinding. And the following twosome had driven into us on #7. And then, I almost beaned my wife waiting on the corner at 8 while I drove. And it looked likely that we weren't going to finish before dark.
The good news - the members dropped out after 9, and we finished the back in 1.5 hours, despite the long walks for my wife. And, it only cost $55.
But, I don't think I'll be going back any time soon.
I'm enjoying this game. How about this? I think I have 16 of the 18 correct, but really who knows? 6&14 are interchangable so I guessed.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ht3I22pWVFg/TWMAHpxdZdI/AAAAAAAAAJg/4o7sIt4QtdI/s1600/challenge%2Baccepted.png)
SO i was disqualified for improper emoticon insertion?
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Greg,
I'd be happy to declare you a winner too, if you can tell me how to get the emoticon buttons to work again. They used to work a few weeks ago. If you were a winner, you too could join us at Bandon during the KP.
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Greg,
Your equal-signs made me illiterate somehow. Yes, you (almost) got the routing right first.
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There are two four hole and two five hole loops, which would be good for evening and late afternoon usage.
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There is a course in Scottsdale where a long, narrow strip of land connects two larger pieces of property. Four holes occupy this corridor that is only wide enough for a single hole, so the holes alternate out and in. One plays every other hole in between driving past the entire length of the holes being played in the opposite direction.
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I'm surprised Tom didn't mention Ventana Canyon's Canyon course in Tucson with the "map" with instructions on how to get from the 9th green to the 10th tee. If I remember correctly, its over a mile. It sure looks like they built the Mountain Course first then decided they had some land on each side of it so they put the front nine of the canyon on one side and the back nine on the other. There are some pretty good individual holes, but the routing is really choppy.
The strangest routing I've seen though has to go to Ironbridge GC near Glenwood Springs, Colorado. The first hole starts off relatively close to the clubhouse, then you take about a 1/2 mile ride through a neighborhood to #2-8 which are generally close together, then back along the same path to #9 which is a short par three that finishes on the other side of the driving range from the clubhouse.
The fun is only beginning, however, as you take a 1 mile ride up a canyon to reach #10 tee and play four holes of mountain golf before heading back down the same path, then turn right and go for a bit to #14, cross a road to get to #16, and return to the clubhouse at #18. I don't know how much walking would be required to play the entire course, but its not for anyone but avid hikers and would have to be a 5+ hour undertaking if one wanted to actually play golf too.
All that said, its got some pretty cool holes and spectacular views. I think the four hole mountain stretch would seem strangely out of place except that the entire course is choppy so in a twisted way that makes it more logical to go way up the mountain to play a few holes before coming back down. I'm not sure how popular this has been, however, since the course is now advertising for public play on their website.
Here's a link to the routing and hole descriptions: http://www.ironbridgeclub.com/golf/thecourse.php
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There is a course in Scottsdale where a long, narrow strip of land connects two larger pieces of property. Four holes occupy this corridor that is only wide enough for a single hole, so the holes alternate out and in. One plays every other hole in between driving past the entire length of the holes being played in the opposite direction.
Silverrado? I know I've played this course at some point but I can't remember which one it is.
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There is a course in Scottsdale where a long, narrow strip of land connects two larger pieces of property. Four holes occupy this corridor that is only wide enough for a single hole, so the holes alternate out and in. One plays every other hole in between driving past the entire length of the holes being played in the opposite direction.
Silverrado? I know I've played this course at some point but I can't remember which one it is.
Silverado indeed.
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Mike Cirba:
In my opinion -- Bear Brook in Fredon Twsp -- is a close company to the famous (should I say that word) CC of the Poconos.
Might be nice to gather an all-star gathering of such holes and combine them for all-18 routing.
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I think it should be broken into two categories: Residential and core.
For the Core Category, I think Continental Europe is a place that could offer a whole selection of golfstranomic forms of botulism. Pick a developing country and feast yourself on courses built by people who didn't know golf and were built by those who knew even less. There are a couple architects (no names) from one country that destroyed more land than any other architects living or dead, and they were busy beavers to boot!
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Oakwood Country Club ranks hifg in my mind.
18 holes on less than 80 acres. Last time I checked...1 on course death and multiple lost eyes.
Lester
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Worst design I have played is Stone Harbor. Just a nightmare! Worst layout award goes to CC of Poconos for all the reasons the previous posters pointed out. Im not totally sure that I 'found' 18 holes on that course. I think the holes were laid out upon close to 20K acres there.
2 other layouts that I found a bit odd were Lighthouse Sound in OC and White Clay Creek in Delaware. Both def require carts to get around. I understand with Lighthouse that they were trying to utilize the waterfront property to its fullest but man is it ever a difficult track to follow. You end up every which where! White Clay Creek winds all around marshlands and has tons of forced carries and tight corridors to negotiate. Both are fun courses and decent designs but they just had difficult natural terrain to work around.
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Matt: You may be correct, Bear Brook does deserve a hallowed and honored place on this list, but, the combination of the layout, design and disjointed nature of the reverred CC of the Pococos at Big Ridge has not as yet been matched , IMHO.
BK
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Tony,
Agreed with the strange, ungainly routing of White Clay Creek, Lighthouse Sound, and I'll raise you one Broad Run (formerly Tattersall GC) in PA.. ;)
Still, agree with Bruce's response to Matt about Bear Brook.
These aren't anywhere near Country Club of the Poconos at Big Ridge for sheer, sheer wonderment and unmerciful pain quotient. ;D
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Tony,
Agreed with the strange, ungainly routing of White Clay Creek, Lighthouse Sound, and I'll raise you one Broad Run (formerly Tattersall GC) in PA.. ;)
Still, agree with Bruce's response to Matt about Bear Brook.
These aren't anywhere near Country Club of the Poconos at Big Ridge for sheer, sheer wonderment and unmerciful pain quotient. ;D
Mike,
I always kick myself for having not played this course when I lived out there. I can only hope to play on a swing back through sometime just so I can have a frame of reference!!
Chris
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Chris,
In that regard, it may be a Doak Scale -10, in that it's worth a special trip to see something architecturally unique to the world of golf.
If you miss even one hole, you've missed something special. ;)
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Mike,
Oh yeah.....Tattersall (Broad Run) by Rees Jones. That is an odd routing. I havent played there in a while....not since it changed names. Did they add houses all over that spread of land?
Another local (NE) layout that is a bit odd is Gary Player's Old York in Chesterfield NJ. I am not a fan of GP's designs. I think that most are a bit over done with the bulldozer. But this course just has a strange set of holes and a couple spots where I was just lost (especially an odd par 3 on the back that was just kinda stuck in a forest next to the rest of the course). Overall it is an ok course and I should really love the place since i had my wedding reception there. But it is a quirky golf course that I dont think I could play over and over again.
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BTW Bryan.....that FL course is insane in its routing. Not an easy walk at all Im sure. Thanks for that pic.