Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Adam Clayman on February 01, 2011, 02:17:56 PM
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A friend's father was flying his ultra-lite aircraft the other day, and, spotted two Mountain Lions near the South Platte River. But the rarer occurrence was just under a month ago when a Tiger was reported to be surveying ground 4.2 miles (as the crow flies) from the famed SHGC.
Has anyone else heard about this Tiger sighting?
If anything will get east coast, or, Big money to pony up initiation fees, it would be the chance to belong to a club with both Jack and Tiger designed golf courses.
Agree? Disagree? Make your case?
BTW, It's highly unlikely that it WILL happen, but fun none the less to speculate about it.
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As I am still new to this golf architecture deal, why would we be excited about Tiger Woods building a golf course? Do we know his style? Do we know what "kind" of a course he is going to build? What will its playing characteristics be? Things like that.
I guess I am totally neutral when I hear he is going to be building courses, as I have no earthly idea whether I will like them or not. I guess if pressed, I'd say I would not be inclined to go out of my way to play a Tiger course for a whole host of reasons...no the least of which he has no pedigree and/or body of work to highlight what he will be doing.
Knowing what little I know about architecture, I'd like to play Tom Doak's courses...because I like fun greens. I am not an over-the-top fan of Fazio, but I kind of know what to expect...and I haven't been revolted by any of this work...so I'd play his courses. Heck, I drove 7 hours (maybe more) to play World Woods and Black Diamond. They were fun. Donald Ross...anytime, anywhere...all his courses I've played have been very, very enjoyable. Subtle off the tee and when approaching the greens, but subtely brilliant. With greens that are very interesting. Tiger Woods...eh, I know nothing about him as an architect.
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A friend's father was flying his ultra-lite aircraft the other day, and, spotted two Mountain Lions near the South Platte River. But the rarer occurrence was just under a month ago when a Tiger was reported to be surveying ground 4.2 miles (as the crow flies) from the famed SHGC.
Has anyone else heard about this Tiger sighting?
If anything will get east coast, or, Big money to pony up initiation fees, it would be the chance to belong to a club with both Jack and Tiger designed golf courses.
Agree? Disagree? Make your case?
BTW, It's highly unlikely that it WILL happen, but fun none the less to speculate about it.
It's gonna be expensive flying all that sand (and trees) in from Dubai
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Adam,
Nice hook with the exotic animal bit...got me interested.
I hate to say it this way because I really don't have much in the way of facts to back me up, but I think more than Tiger and Jack Golf Courses driving the membership it will require contacts and relationships. People will join a mediocre course if their friends are there over a better course. Just my opinion.
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Adam,
What are some of the rumor specifics? Where about’s was a Tiger seen and with whom approximately?
Is someone in the Nebraska Sand Hills going to hit what’s missing?
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Mac, All valid points. BUT, I suspect you, or too many in this forum, would not be the target, or, the justification for inking a deal. But, whoever works for Tiger, will not be a novice architect.
Jason, The story goes this way. Tiger was here, looking at possibly building the second 18 at DR. It was added that partial ownership was part of it too.
I assume it's a very smart way for the current ownership to increase it's revenue stream.
Sully, I think it boils down to butts in the seat, so to speak. If anything would get the uber wealthy to sign up, it would be the bragging rights of belonging to a club, likely the only club, associated with the two greatest players of the last 50 years.
As I said above, I suspect the deal will be hard to get through to fruition. But still fun to think about what might be.
Jeff Warn, They only need to fly the trees. It is THE SAND HILLS REGION.
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But, whoever works for Tiger, will not be a novice architect.
Now this is where I get confused. Will Tiger get the credit for being the architect? Will it be his course? Or will it be someone else's course, but Tiger's name is on it?
I guess I have the same confusion with Jack and Arnold. Chris Cochran was heavily involved with Dismal River, right? Is Dismal his course or Jack's? I've always heard Ed Seay did a lot of Arnold's work. But all the courses are listed as Arnold Palmer designs. Goofy to me. Whoever did the work, perhaps focused on the routing, should get the design credit. No?
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Adam I must confess Tiger has a hill to climb to show he is anything more than a zero as an architect. Jack showed that even a sandhill hills course can be made average.
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Adam I must confess Tiger has a hill to climb to show he is anything more than a zero as an architect. Jack showed that even a sandhill hills course can be made average.
I will take it a step further Tiger B:
Marketing or Golf? Marketing or Golf? Marketing or Golf?
I think I will take the golf.
P.S. I cannot believe you guys are debating this while Donald Trump is on the Golf Channel. Speaking of marketing or golf....
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Adam,
I thought I had heard that Tom Watson was on tap to do the second course at Dismal River. Was I mistaken?
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No, you weren't mistaken. But, things change.
Tiger B,
I still don't see where quality design enters into this business decision
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Adam,
I understand Ballyneal is kicking around a second course, Dismal River a second with Tiger, Prairie Club with Gil Hanse, etc.
Is there really a market for these memberships or are they all looking at a resort style model. I’m just trying to figure out who is going to fill the courses to pay for the cost of building and maintaining them.
I look forward to your insight because I feel like there’s something I just don’t understand.
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Ian, I won't pretend to have any insight. I suspect there's different reasons for each of the clubs to want a second course, but after typing that, the end result, or desired end result would ultimately be the same. Increase revenue stream. Plus, there's probably an economy of scale associated with the costs of maintenance.
At Ballyneal, I know originally the second course was to allow for cart rides, for members (or public play) who might not be able to walk a first or second 18 holes in one day. Plus, with all that great ground, why not use it for it's potentially greatest use? Links golf.
At Prairie Club, their third course is actually the first course, but due to ownership and specific site changes, will be their 3rd. BTW, They are continuing with their public special this year, only at a $50 increase to $399 for one night and two days of golf.
At DR, a 2nd course was always in their plan, too. Originally it was going to be another JN course ( I thought) but then Mr. Watson's showed a great interest and was actually one of the catalysts in convincing Jack to make the changes at DR. Now, with Tiger being brought in, I hold to my feeling that it's a wise business choice, even if from a design stand point, it's an unproven entity. I also suspect that IMG will a major hurdle to overcome for this to ever happen.
Again my speculation....Is by giving the member (and public) more than one course, you can handle a greater number of rounds. Without sacrificing that special feeling of being out with nature with few distractions or other people around.
Mac, Years ago we covered the subject you are having trouble wrapping your head around. It was learned that the name on the shingle gets the credit. Just the way the world works.
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Ian, I won't pretend to have any insight. I suspect there's different reasons for each of the clubs to want a second course, but after typing that, the end result, or desired end result would ultimately be the same. Increase revenue stream. Plus, there's probably an economy of scale associated with the costs of maintenance.
At Ballyneal, I know originally the second course was to allow for cart rides, for members (or public play) who might not be able to walk a first or second 18 holes in one day. Plus, with all that great ground, why not use it for it's potentially greatest use? Links golf.
At Prairie Club, their third course is actually the first course, but due to ownership and specific site changes, will be their 3rd. BTW, They are continuing with their public special this year, only at a $50 increase to $399 for one night and two days of golf.
At DR, a 2nd course was always in their plan, too. Originally it was going to be another JN course ( I thought) but then Mr. Watson's showed a great interest and was actually one of the catalysts in convincing Jack to make the changes at DR. Now, with Tiger being brought in, I hold to my feeling that it's a wise business choice, even if from a design stand point, it's an unproven entity. I also suspect that IMG will a major hurdle to overcome for this to ever happen.
Again my speculation....Is by giving the member (and public) more than one course, you can handle a greater number of rounds. Without sacrificing that special feeling of being out with nature with few distractions or other people around.
Mac, Years ago we covered the subject you are having trouble wrapping your head around. It was learned that the name on the shingle gets the credit. Just the way the world works.
Adam,
I've always been under the impression that people who ventured into the Sand Hills for golf were pretty golf savvy.
Why would an unproven (and recently contoversial) neophyte architect be a better draw than a great course designed by a talented architect who poured his heart into it?
I frankly don't think someone whose more drawn to a Tiger Woods design than to a(insert name here) architect would make for an ideal member.
I don't think Tiger would be any worse than any Tour architect and maybe better as no doubt he wants to make another mark, but there are so many great architects available at the moment who,in addition to being better, would no doubt maximize time on the site and be cheaper.
Perhaps there's a Perkin's nearby which defrays costs?
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Adam,
I've always been under the impression that people who ventured into the Sand Hills for golf were pretty golf savvy.
Why would an unproven (and recently contoversial) neophyte architect be a better draw than a great course designed by a talented architect who poured his heart into it?
I frankly don't think someone whose more drawn to a Tiger Woods design than to a(insert name here) architect would make for an ideal member.
I don't think Tiger would be any worse than any Tour architect and maybe better as no doubt he wants to make another mark, but there are so many great architects available at the moment who,in addition to being better, would no doubt maximize time on the site and be cheaper.
Perhaps there's a Perkin's nearby which defrays costs?
Jeff,
Maybe the point is get the masses out there vs the relatively limited population of "savvy" golfers?
The tree house often forgets that we are in the vast minority when it comes to the way people look at golf and golf architecture. A Tiger Woods course and a Jack Nicklaus course at the same property would undoubtedly be a huge draw for 95% of the "golfing" population.
Unfortunately, many people who travel to play golf on a regular basis have no idea who Doak, C&C, Hanse, DeVries, etc, are...
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Adam,
I've always been under the impression that people who ventured into the Sand Hills for golf were pretty golf savvy.
Why would an unproven (and recently contoversial) neophyte architect be a better draw than a great course designed by a talented architect who poured his heart into it?
I frankly don't think someone whose more drawn to a Tiger Woods design than to a(insert name here) architect would make for an ideal member.
I don't think Tiger would be any worse than any Tour architect and maybe better as no doubt he wants to make another mark, but there are so many great architects available at the moment who,in addition to being better, would no doubt maximize time on the site and be cheaper.
Perhaps there's a Perkin's nearby which defrays costs?
Jeff,
Maybe the point is get the masses out there vs the relatively limited population of "savvy" golfers?
The tree house often forgets that we are in the vast minority when it comes to the way people look at golf and golf architecture. A Tiger Woods course and a Jack Nicklaus course at the same property would undoubtedly be a huge draw for 95% of the "golfing" population.
Unfortunately, many people who travel to play golf on a regular basis have no idea who Doak, C&C, Hanse, DeVries, etc, are...
George:
I agree with you that, in general, a "Tiger Woods course and a Jack Nicklaus course at the same property would undoubtedly be a huge draw for 95% of the "golfing" population." But we're not talking about a public facility in Florida, so you first have to ask what percentage of the golfing population is interested in joining a private club in the middle of Nebraska, and then ask whether that limited demographic is going to be drawn to a club just because of a Woods/Nicklaus combo?
As for me, I already belong to a (local) club where I can't play golf during the winter, so I don't ever see myself joining another club that I also can't play during the winter and that's really hard for me to get to, unless that club is truly great. So while I would join Sand Hills if lucky enough to be asked,* based on what others have said about Dismal, I couldn't see myself joining there unless the Woods course is simply spectacular [or the Nicklaus course is better than reported]. NOTE: I've neither played Dismal nor Sand Hills, but it's only the latter that I hear people seriously consider a top 10 or 20 course.
*For the access police, please note that I am not trolling for such an invitation.
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Folks Tiger is not the architect. He is just the Swedish bikini model for the Budweiser beer. The architect probably is that refugee from the Fazio camp that got Tiger the Mexico deal.
My memory may be faulty. It was Bud that used the Swedish bikini models in their commercials many years ago wasn't it?
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I thought this thread was going to be about the first hot woman seen in Nebraska for the past 10 years... :) ;)
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Pat...
There are hot women in Nebraska. Maybe they all work at Sand Hills Golf Club, but nevertheless there are at least two!! (insert smiley)
Speaking of savvy golfers going to the sandhills for golf. I invited some clients to join me at Sand Hills for a few days of golf at, arguably, the greatest golf course in the US. Although avid golfers who play at least 3 times week, they said no. They were shocked that anyone would go to Nebraska for golf. I was stunned at this response...and frankly speechless. So, I ended up with these guys...
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/DSCN25441.jpg)
and this guy...
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/adamatDR.jpg)
Maybe it worked out for the best.
But here is the deal...would they have gone if it was a Tiger Woods design? Maybe.
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For those ignorant enough to prove it... The current Miss USA is from Nebraska
Here's the teen version
(http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs289.snc3/28094_721917195163_17203057_40532991_1634576_n.jpg)
And Here's a pic of one of last years contestants, who happens to be from Ogallala
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs319.ash1/28094_721914745073_17203057_40532882_782705_n.jpg)
(http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v368/16/54/17203057/n17203057_36395928_1236.jpg)
Jeff Warne, George summed up my feelings fairly well. We here in this forum are much too jaded to see the benefit of a Tiger design.
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Pat...
There are hot women in Nebraska. Maybe they all work at Sand Hills Golf Club, but nevertheless there are at least two!! (insert smiley)
Speaking of savvy golfers going to the sandhills for golf. I invited some clients to join me at Sand Hills for a few days of golf at, arguably, the greatest golf course in the US. Although avid golfers who play at least 3 times week, they said no. They were shocked that anyone would go to Nebraska for golf. I was stunned at this response...and frankly speechless. So, I ended up with these guys...
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/DSCN25441.jpg)
But here is the deal...would they have gone if it was a Tiger Woods design? Maybe.
Darren Clarke went? Cool.....Always wanted to have a beer with that guy.
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and this guy...
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/adamatDR.jpg)
Tommy Armour III?
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Tiger B,
Have you played Dismal River? Curious to know why you say it is mediocre.
Adam,
I think that it is likely the Tiger course at Dismal River would meet the same criticism that Jack's course did. Not that Jack's course is bad, by all accounts from people I trust it is fantastic. Nonetheless, the area out there seems to be reserved for the C&C's and Doaks of the world. Just look at the struggles at the Prairie Club. If you think it isn't hurting them that they went with an architect who isn't "hot" right now, you'd be fooling yourself. So, unless they have sold out their memberships at DR, I'd suggest they went with someone like Doak who is the critics' darling and the best marketing architect there is. He can sell 50 memberships just by posting about the project on GCA.com.
Of course my recommendation would be to give a guy like Mike DeVries a piece of land like that and watch his career blow up like Doak's after Pacific Dunes. Particularly given that his body of work (i.e. Kingsley and Greywalls) is significantly better than either C&C's or Doaks before they got their first piece of phenomenal land.
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For those ignorant enough to prove it... The current Miss USA is from Nebraska
Here's the teen version
(http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs289.snc3/28094_721917195163_17203057_40532991_1634576_n.jpg)
And Here's a pic of one of last years contestants, who happens to be from Ogallala
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs319.ash1/28094_721914745073_17203057_40532882_782705_n.jpg)
(http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v368/16/54/17203057/n17203057_36395928_1236.jpg)
Jeff Warne, George summed up my feelings fairly well. We here in this forum are much too jaded to see the benefit of a Tiger design.
I'll bite.
That's Miss USA?
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Tiger B; I can assure you Dismal River is anything but mediocre. In fact, hole to hole, it would stack up quite well to the best courses around. Quite well.
Dismal River is considering adding a second course and less than a handful of exotic characters have indeed been out, including a one or two who hang around here. Out of respect for them, they shall remain unnamed by me.
And for the record, the site is spectacular. Among the best I, and others, have ever seen.
Unlike some of our neighbors, Dismal River has little debt, our infrastructure is in place, and is the best around. Why build a second course?.. because the site is that good and the cost is reasonable. Unlike some more romantic places with crushing debt loads, we like the kind of golfers and people who become part of Dismal. In general, they are real, not pretentious, and respect the game. We measure people far more by the amount of their passion than the size of the wallet. We are about friends and family coming together.
George - the beauty of our model is you don't have to donate a nut to be come a member. It's affordable and cool, simple and kind, truly one of the best experiences out there. That was the original goal of our neighbor of which I am most grateful to have become a member there early on before it received its well earned acclaim.
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Chris...
If you are building another course at Dismal, I'd be happy to throw my hat in the ring as its potential architect. My track record is pretty impressive...not bragging really, just being honest. Here is a quick peak at some of my work...
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,46654.0.html (http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,46654.0.html)
Tough call as to what is my best hole built so far, but I am partial to "The Cathedral Hole". And I totally embrace the whole natural/minimalistic thing. Send me a PM or call me at 404-555-1212 to chat.
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For those ignorant enough to prove it... The current Miss USA is from Nebraska
Here's the teen version
(http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs289.snc3/28094_721917195163_17203057_40532991_1634576_n.jpg)
And Here's a pic of one of last years contestants, who happens to be from Ogallala
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs319.ash1/28094_721914745073_17203057_40532882_782705_n.jpg)
(http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v368/16/54/17203057/n17203057_36395928_1236.jpg)
Jeff Warne, George summed up my feelings fairly well. We here in this forum are much too jaded to see the benefit of a Tiger design.
Woof.
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Chris...
If you are building another course at Dismal, I'd be happy to throw my hat in the ring as its potential architect. My track record is pretty impressive...not bragging really, just being honest. Here is a quick peak at some of my work...
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,46654.0.html (http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,46654.0.html)
Tough call as to what is my best hole built so far, but I am partial to "The Cathedral Hole". And I totally embrace the whole natural/minimalistic thing. Send me a PM or call me at 404-555-1212 to chat.
Mac - Now, THAT is minimalism! Nice work
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Speaking of savvy golfers going to the sandhills for golf. I invited some clients to join me at Sand Hills for a few days of golf at, arguably, the greatest golf course in the US. Although avid golfers who play at least 3 times week, they said no. They were shocked that anyone would go to Nebraska for golf. I was stunned at this response...and frankly speechless. So, I ended up with these guys...
Mac,
You clearly need new clients. You know if it was not for clients, I would love my job. Then again, if it was not for clients, I would not have one.
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I saw this thread yesterday, and thought I'd sleep on it, and think about it a bit. Then, I came back to find actual photos of the exotic game posted! So my impression based on experience of actually having met the exotic wild life out there is to caution you that unlike Sashquash and Big Foot of the Pac Norwest, with grainy evidence of its existence, this Sand Hills version is actually known as Big Red Curly Mane Male Cougar. He is quite docile. He is seen frequently, unlike the PacNorwester. His main characteristic is hovering and observing. Unlike the predatory big cats, I don't think he watches because he will devour you, but now that I see those cutie pie photos of alarmingly young prey of that region, I am rethinking the harmless docile part.
He stands much taller and appears much wider than I think he actually is. And he lures you in with a grin. Maybe it is a nature's adaptation thing.
(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l76/rjdaley/P1010099.jpg)
His hovering observation is a natural behavior trait that often mimics the habits of a caddie.
(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l76/rjdaley/P1010040-4.jpg)
(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l76/rjdaley/P1010050-3.jpg)
When provoked, he will pick up impliments and lash out, but never without great evaluatiuon of his options
(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l76/rjdaley/P1010095-1.jpg)
Sometimes he evaluates options so hard, his head hurts
(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l76/rjdaley/P1010101.jpg)
finally, this Sand Hills Big Red Curly Mane Male Cougar is known to be sociable (not sure about how sociable is appropriate around the the miss teen Sandy Hills dollies) He stands a bit bowl legged, and has had some big pain to deal with, and has been riding in motorized transportation in his natural habitat. But, he is headed for a procedure to build him some new haunches. So we wish him all the best and fast recovery and return to that natural habitat up in the Sand Hills. ;)
(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l76/rjdaley/P1010098.jpg)
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Regarding sleeping on it and wondering about the second course question and rationale, I came to the conclusion, 'the more the merrier'. The gents that are behind these developments aren't some kind of financial novices. They know their brief, and what they are doing out there is sort of a generational or historic commitment and gift to the game of golf. Why would a devoted golf architecture junkie and golfer have anything but well wishes and encouragement for these developers? We can debate the minutia and how many angels can dance on the head of the pin, regarding the actual designs. That is the fun part of participating here. I myself have made some observations of DR, solely by photos before, during, and after construction. But, I think I'd be an idiot to detract or deride or say something discouraging about the venture. If the man or group that have their silver in the venture at DR have the notion of a Tiger, or a less reknown actual GCA, I'd say go for it if it makes them happy and they can sleep on the risk. Golf can't loose.
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Regarding sleeping on it and wondering about the second course question and rationale, I came to the conclusion, 'the more the merrier'. The gents that are behind these developments aren't some kind of financial novices. They know their brief, and what they are doing out there is sort of a generational or historic commitment and gift to the game of golf. Why would a devoted golf architecture junkie and golfer have anything but well wishes and encouragement for these developers? We can debate the minutia and how many angels can dance on the head of the pin, regarding the actual designs. That is the fun part of participating here. I myself have made some observations of DR, solely by photos before, during, and after construction. But, I think I'd be an idiot to detract or deride or say something discouraging about the venture. If the man or group that have their silver in the venture at DR have the notion of a Tiger, or a less reknown actual GCA, I'd say go for it if it makes them happy and they can sleep on the risk. Golf can't loose.
Great post, RJ. To answer your question, to protect their investment or if the wrong architect (in their eyes) is chosen, to have another opportunity to be condescending and judgmental of a golf course they've never played. Just look at all the criticism of the current DR course from people who haven't played it.
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Speaking of savvy golfers going to the sandhills for golf. I invited some clients to join me at Sand Hills for a few days of golf at, arguably, the greatest golf course in the US. Although avid golfers who play at least 3 times week, they said no. They were shocked that anyone would go to Nebraska for golf. I was stunned at this response...and frankly speechless. So, I ended up with these guys...
Mac,
You clearly need new clients. You know if it was not for clients, I would love my job. Then again, if it was not for clients, I would not have one.
Matthew...
They are awesome people. And I get the humor in your post, but their decision/reaction cemented in my mind how niche a fascination with golf course architecture is. Oh well, it opens up more opportunities for me to enjoy these great courses due to less demand than would occur if the fascination was more main stream.
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Mac, I'm sure glad your clients couldn't make it! I ufortunately didn't get to play DR, but the view from the clubhouse fireplace is really hard to beat. I think I'll get there someday, as like JC said, people whose opinions I hold highly thought is was great.
I will also get to the Prairie Club soon, for it's a relatively short drive for me. I don't know anything about the PC's business model, or how they are doing (JC says above they are struggling) but does anyone see that third course being built anytime soon?
P.S. Which of us is Darren Clarke?
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Speaking of savvy golfers going to the sandhills for golf. I invited some clients to join me at Sand Hills for a few days of golf at, arguably, the greatest golf course in the US. Although avid golfers who play at least 3 times week, they said no. They were shocked that anyone would go to Nebraska for golf. I was stunned at this response...and frankly speechless. So, I ended up with these guys...
Mac,
You clearly need new clients. You know if it was not for clients, I would love my job. Then again, if it was not for clients, I would not have one.
Matthew...
They are awesome people. And I get the humor in your post, but their decision/reaction cemented in my mind how niche a fascination with golf course architecture is. Oh well, it opens up more opportunities for me to enjoy these great courses due to less demand than would occur if the fascination was more main stream.
Jason & Mac:
I agree with you. We are located in an area with truly great courses, and while I would encourage those critical of Dismal to visit or revisit, we realize our neighbors are among the best courses in the world and that acclaim is well deserved. Does that result in DR being criticized more than it should? Probably. Should people pass up a visit to Dismal? Probably not. It''s quite good and a warm welcome awaits.
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(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/NEBRASKA/IMG_1856.jpg?t=1296744300)
Warm, indeed.
Chris,
This news is very exciting to ponder as the possibilities for the club with two great courses (being cautiously optimistic here) should equate to longer stays for your members and guests, who in turn would be able to enjoy more great sandhills golf, more pork chops, beer, wine, nights around the fire pit...more great memories...a win/win for everyone.
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Unlike some of our neighbors, Dismal River has little debt, our infrastructure is in place, and is the best around. Why build a second course?.. because the site is that good and the cost is reasonable. Unlike some more romantic places with crushing debt loads, we like the kind of golfers and people who become part of Dismal. In general, they are real, not pretentious, and respect the game. We measure people far more by the amount of their passion than the size of the wallet. We are about friends and family coming together.
George - the beauty of our model is you don't have to donate a nut to be come a member. It's affordable and cool, simple and kind, truly one of the best experiences out there. That was the original goal of our neighbor of which I am most grateful to have become a member there early on before it received its well earned acclaim.
Sounds like a club with its priorities in order. Best of luck - I hope to get out your way some time to see it.
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Unlike some of our neighbors, Dismal River has little debt, our infrastructure is in place, and is the best around. Why build a second course?.. because the site is that good and the cost is reasonable. Unlike some more romantic places with crushing debt loads, we like the kind of golfers and people who become part of Dismal. In general, they are real, not pretentious, and respect the game. We measure people far more by the amount of their passion than the size of the wallet. We are about friends and family coming together.
George - the beauty of our model is you don't have to donate a nut to be come a member. It's affordable and cool, simple and kind, truly one of the best experiences out there. That was the original goal of our neighbor of which I am most grateful to have become a member there early on before it received its well earned acclaim.
Chris,
The second course is a great idea! The more golf courses in the region, the better from my perspective. And I agree with Adam, there is a compelling story combining Tiger/Jack together and having Tiger's first actual design (if you don't count his backyard practice area). Looking at the aerial, it just screams great golf.
How much land to you own out there? Where would the proposed 2nd course be in relation to the first?
I'm not sure I follow your previous comments about your neighbors/competitors. Are you saying they are pretentious, fake and don't respect the game and not about friends and family coming together (aren't they all trying to sell the chance to unplug and unwind with your buddies?) I've been to most of these remote clubs and have found a friendly, down-to-earth vibe that is consistent with the culture of that region. PC was the only place where I felt more like a hotel guest or resort guest as opposed to a friend of the family.
(http://www.dunkladder.com/dismal.png)
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Jim:
I assume PC is Prairie Club?
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Probably even more impressive than the incredible topography of the Sand Hills area and the great golf it engenders are the local Nebraskans. They are the friendliest, most hospitable people I've been around. Tiger, nor JC for that matter, could hardly move the average Niceness index with an extended stay in the area.
Though I hope more gets built in the area, I don't understand the economics. It is compelling golf, but not at a small cost. I suspect that when it comes down to consumer preferences and dollars and cents, the Myrtle Beach model gets the nod. Of the 26 to 28 million golfers in the U.S., I wonder how many "get" Sand Hills golf and are willing to spend their money there?
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Lou, I couldn't agree more with your sentiment toward the locals. Some of the most genuine people I've been privileged to meet and, in some cases, to call friends.
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I'll 3rd the comments on the quality of people there. I was blown away.
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Chris, thanks for participating in this. One aspect I think relevant is the bad vibe that many received when the original course opened. That hill needs to be overcome and I think you and your group have gone a long way in correcting that.
My hope is that whoever is chosen to build it, people will give DR a second chance to experience the feelings you've outlined above.
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Wow - First off, I dont think it is cool for people to come on and attack Dismal if they haven't seen it in person or played it. At the same time, I think it is super uncool for someone involved to imply things like this about other clubs in the area.
"Unlike some more romantic places with crushing debt loads, we like the kind of golfers and people who become part of Dismal. In general, they are real, not pretentious, and respect the game. We measure people far more by the amount of their passion than the size of the wallet. We are about friends and family coming together."
Why not sell the course on its own merits as opposed to implying that there's something not to like about the type of people that have joined other courses in the area. I'm shocked that the number of people lining up to defend Dismal against the Doak and C&C crowd on this thread don't see an equal issue here.
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Tim, maybe I need to go back and re-read Chris' reply a little closer, but I didn't come away with the impression he was referring to courses in the area such as SH, BN and PC. I thought it was a more general comment regarding some of the more "elite" clubs. If I am wrong, then shame on him.
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Tim,
I also did not get the impression he was talking about Dismal's neighbors when he said that.
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Of course that's not what he meant and it isn't what he wrote. He'll surely tell you this himself.
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Unlike some of our neighbors, Dismal River has little debt, our infrastructure is in place, and is the best around. Why build a second course?.. because the site is that good and the cost is reasonable. Unlike some more romantic places with crushing debt loads, we like the kind of golfers and people who become part of Dismal. In general, they are real, not pretentious, and respect the game. We measure people far more by the amount of their passion than the size of the wallet. We are about friends and family coming together.
Really?
You can see how someone might conclude that the neighbors in question have crushing debt loads and are less down to earth. Hey, I'm down to earth. Butler, get me my oatmeal!
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Feeling an overwhelming desire to enter into a "your course ain't shit" pissing contest where nobody wins. Unfortunately, I have to go so I can play my other romantic course here in the desert.
Please perceive this comment as non-serious, and an attempt to derive as much laughter out of life as possible.
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What is it Dr. Beeper says: "Must be a nice change from dreary old Manhattan."
I don't think Chris is selling choose us over them with his post. He's selling choose us over THEM.
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If that's not what was implied then perhaps the comments should be edited so that the paragraph from which I quoted doesn't start with "Unlike some of our neighbors."
I think it is what he wrote even if it isn't what he meant. And I'm not trying to trash him or his facilities just as I hope he isn't trying to do the surrounding facilities. Just how it read to someone with no stake in the Sand Hills region golf politics. I don't think my interpretation is an unreasonable one based on the written words.
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My original response, Tim, had the suggestion that he should have included a paragraph break. I think it is wise to give people the benefit of the doubt.
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It's a two pronged marketing pitch and it doesn't transition as well as it probably should. I agree with you Tim, your assumption is not unreasonable. It would be harsh if both are to be applied to the neighboring clubs, but I believe he doesn't mean to imply that.
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After going back and re-reading it I can certainly see how it can be construed that way. I have no stake in the matter as I have no involvement with any of the courses in mention. I just don't think he was implying a different kind of membership than that of BN or SH. I find the members at those clubs to be just like those that DR is trying to attract. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.
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If that's not what was implied then perhaps the comments should be edited so that the paragraph from which I quoted doesn't start with "Unlike some of our neighbors."
I think it is what he wrote even if it isn't what he meant. And I'm not trying to trash him or his facilities just as I hope he isn't trying to do the surrounding facilities. Just how it read to someone with no stake in the Sand Hills region golf politics. I don't think my interpretation is an unreasonable one based on the written words.
"Unlike some more romantic places with crushing debt loads, we like the kind of golfers and people who become part of Dismal. In general, they are real, not pretentious, and respect the game. We measure people far more by the amount of their passion than the size of the wallet. We are about friends and family coming together."
Either he is saying:
a) other 'neighbor' clubs don't like the kind of people who become part of Dismal (real, unpretentious, respect the game, etc.)
or
b) other 'neighbor' clubs pale in comparison to DR with respect to pretentiousness, respecting the game, judging by passion over wallet size and friend/family camaraderie.
I haven't been to Dismal but based on my experience at other places I'd be shocked if either of those were true.
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The problem with that interpretation is that he didn't start the sentence with 'neighbor.' The preceding sentence had the word 'neighbor' but he didn't use that word in the second one.
To me, it is clear that he wouldn't be describing Holyoke or Valentine as "more romantic" than Dismal because they are similar environments. That is why I read it as talking about somewhere other than the neighbor clubs.
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Serious question for Chris or others. Assuming that he was only referring to DR's neighbors in the first sentence (copied below), which of those neighbors have lots of debt and don't have infrastructure in place?
"Unlike some of our neighbors, Dismal River has little debt, our infrastructure is in place, and is the best around."
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(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRzcm3BEjP1PYF9brNYvwNGBHB0unXRVs9hLLCE9kiUFzUhNq2c)
"I got it! Paw!!
When he says romantic places, he means Valentine! Get it, Valentine, Nebraska is where The Prairie Club is!
Sheesh Paw, this figurin' people out is easy!"
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Reading the 57 responses to this thread leaves me only with two thoughts.
1) The only subject on GCA.com more caustic than Merion's lineage is any thread involving comparison, juxtaposition, or implied superiority between any of the collection of sand hills courses in Nebraska and northeastern Colorado.
2) I was shocked that Mac would--as a guest--invite clients to accompany him to Sand Hills GC.
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Ben,
ME TOO!!!!!!!
In all seriousness, though, if Mr. Youngscap invites Mac to come out and bring 3 people along with him (without any qualifier), why would it shock you that he invited clients? Many people in the business world, have great relationships with and are friends with their clients.
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JC,
It's just one man's opinion. Be it semantics, or some of the prudence taught me over the course of my life. I would have used the word "friends" if they indeed were. I would also expect a man as involved in the love of golf courses as Mac to "pay it forward" to those close to him in that endeavor. Which he ended up doing. But that would have been my first thought, not a backup plan after business acquaintances.
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For Dismal to add another course, would it be prudent to widen the 17 mile road? Is that even possible?
Having driven through the area twice last year, there are lots of places for great golf courses just screaming to be "discovered." Of course, that is not a secret, I suppose, around here.
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I guess this article answers my questions on the PC's struggles (and then it picking up) and the plan for the third course.
http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/Default.aspx
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JC,
It's just one man's opinion. Be it semantics, or some of the prudence taught me over the course of my life. I would have used the word "friends" if they indeed were. I would also expect a man as involved in the love of golf courses as Mac to "pay it forward" to those close to him in that endeavor. Which he ended up doing. But that would have been my first thought, not a backup plan after business acquaintances.
Have you ever met Mac?
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JC,
It's just one man's opinion. Be it semantics, or some of the prudence taught me over the course of my life. I would have used the word "friends" if they indeed were. I would also expect a man as involved in the love of golf courses as Mac to "pay it forward" to those close to him in that endeavor. Which he ended up doing. But that would have been my first thought, not a backup plan after business acquaintances.
Have you ever met Mac?
JC,
No, I have not. But I don't think that fact bears any weight. I simply commented on what I read as a fairly odd statement. Especially coming from a guy as blatantly enthusiastic as Mac about all things golf. Air Force colleagues would be the last folks I'd invite to Sand Hills. My closest friends from the golf world? You betcha.
If you're going to give me some bromance story about how Mac is a friend to all, spare me. I get it. Mac is friendly, infectious, like a Labrador taking amphetamines. This is not a revelation.
I would say that it is quite knightly of you to ride to his defense, even though no sword was drawn from my scabbard.
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Unlike some of our neighbors, Dismal River has little debt, our infrastructure is in place, and is the best around. Why build a second course?.. because the site is that good and the cost is reasonable. Unlike some more romantic places with crushing debt loads, we like the kind of golfers and people who become part of Dismal. In general, they are real, not pretentious, and respect the game. We measure people far more by the amount of their passion than the size of the wallet. We are about friends and family coming together.
George - the beauty of our model is you don't have to donate a nut to be come a member. It's affordable and cool, simple and kind, truly one of the best experiences out there. That was the original goal of our neighbor of which I am most grateful to have become a member there early on before it received its well earned acclaim.
Chris,
The second course is a great idea! The more golf courses in the region, the better from my perspective. And I agree with Adam, there is a compelling story combining Tiger/Jack together and having Tiger's first actual design (if you don't count his backyard practice area). Looking at the aerial, it just screams great golf.
How much land to you own out there? Where would the proposed 2nd course be in relation to the first?
I'm not sure I follow your previous comments about your neighbors/competitors. Are you saying they are pretentious, fake and don't respect the game and not about friends and family coming together (aren't they all trying to sell the chance to unplug and unwind with your buddies?) I've been to most of these remote clubs and have found a friendly, down-to-earth vibe that is consistent with the culture of that region. PC was the only place where I felt more like a hotel guest or resort guest as opposed to a friend of the family.
(http://www.dunkladder.com/dismal.png)
Jim We have 3,000 acres and two miles of the Dismal. I was making no comment about members of any other clubs, I was merely making the observation that the members of Dismal are real, not pretentious, and respect the game. I would imagine that all clubs out here attract the same purist golfer but I don't have any firsthand knowledge.
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Chris, thanks for participating in this. One aspect I think relevant is the bad vibe that many received when the original course opened. That hill needs to be overcome and I think you and your group have gone a long way in correcting that.
My hope is that whoever is chosen to build it, people will give DR a second chance to experience the feelings you've outlined above.
Adam - I agree with you. There is also a challenge being in a great neighborhood. Dismal a great place that gets treated rather harshly when compared to the other great area courses. The point here is most courses would fall short with the great tracks out here. That doesn't make Dismal bad, it supports the point the neighborhood is that good.
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Wow - First off, I dont think it is cool for people to come on and attack Dismal if they haven't seen it in person or played it. At the same time, I think it is super uncool for someone involved to imply things like this about other clubs in the area.
"Unlike some more romantic places with crushing debt loads, we like the kind of golfers and people who become part of Dismal. In general, they are real, not pretentious, and respect the game. We measure people far more by the amount of their passion than the size of the wallet. We are about friends and family coming together."
Why not sell the course on its own merits as opposed to implying that there's something not to like about the type of people that have joined other courses in the area. I'm shocked that the number of people lining up to defend Dismal against the Doak and C&C crowd on this thread don't see an equal issue here.
Tim - Maybe I could have typed better yesterday if you though I was critical of the membership of our area clubs. I would never say anything bad about our neighbors - they are some of the best clubs on the planet. I was merely describing the kind of people who comprise our own membership. I certainly made no implication that members of the other clubs were bad - how would I know this?
Those who compliment the people in the area are right on. Great people. hard working, generous and kind. They make the visit all the more special.
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Tim, maybe I need to go back and re-read Chris' reply a little closer, but I didn't come away with the impression he was referring to courses in the area such as SH, BN and PC. I thought it was a more general comment regarding some of the more "elite" clubs. If I am wrong, then shame on him.
Scott - you are correct - I wasn't banging on out neighbors. I was describing our the kind of people who are members at Dismal. I wasn't intended to say describe members of other clubs for I don't know them - those that know me know it isn't my style.
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JC,
No, I have not. But I don't think that fact bears any weight. I simply commented on what I read as a fairly odd statement. Especially coming from a guy as blatantly enthusiastic as Mac about all things golf. Air Force colleagues would be the last folks I'd invite to Sand Hills. My closest friends from the golf world? You betcha.
If you're going to give me some bromance story about how Mac is a friend to all, spare me. I get it. Mac is friendly, infectious, like a Labrador taking amphetamines. This is not a revelation.
I would say that it is quite knightly of you to ride to his defense, even though no sword was drawn from my scabbard.
Please spare me the "take a shot-parse words-pretend like no harm was meant" formula that has been used on here long before you adopted it. It is a tired one and extremely transparent.
Your not knowing him absolutely bears weight as you are not making simple comments. You are making a thinly veiled attack on his character. What I find interesting is that Mac is often the recipient of shots from you and many of the Max's Lounge crowd yet to my knowledge, only Mayhugh has met him. Furthermore, your condescending, Papazian-wannabe remarks about him being a labrador on amphetamines are obvious in their intentions are not undone by your sword metaphor.
You may not invite your air force colleagues to play golf with you but perhaps they aren't your golf buddies. You not knowing Mac nor his relationship with his clients means that your projection of what you would do with all of your prudence has no relevance. You are right, I probably should just sit tight and not say anything when shots are taken at people whom I've met and think highly of, the problem is, Mac has the class to not reciprocate what is thrown at him and well, I guess I have Sims-like prudence.
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Unlike some of our neighbors, Dismal River has little debt, our infrastructure is in place, and is the best around. Why build a second course?.. because the site is that good and the cost is reasonable. Unlike some more romantic places with crushing debt loads, we like the kind of golfers and people who become part of Dismal. In general, they are real, not pretentious, and respect the game. We measure people far more by the amount of their passion than the size of the wallet. We are about friends and family coming together.
Really?
You can see how someone might conclude that the neighbors in question have crushing debt loads and are less down to earth. Hey, I'm down to earth. Butler, get me my oatmeal!
John Forgive me but I'm afraid you missed my point, or I made the point poorly. The point being made was in regard to "why add a second course". If you read the comment in that context, it makes sense to me. We don't have a crushing debt load and fully have our infrastructure in place for a second course - it simply makes the consideration a bit easier, thats all. I certainly didn't mean to bang our neighbors in the least.
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Serious question for Chris or others. Assuming that he was only referring to DR's neighbors in the first sentence (copied below), which of those neighbors have lots of debt and don't have infrastructure in place?
"Unlike some of our neighbors, Dismal River has little debt, our infrastructure is in place, and is the best around."
Hi Carl - Many of you guys are reading way too much into what could have been better written by me. I wasn't making a comment about others, I was merely trying to point out why we are considering a second course. We don't have a crushing debt load and our infrastructure is in place - our facilities were built to accommodate more golf and we don't need to expand them.
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For Dismal to add another course, would it be prudent to widen the 17 mile road? Is that even possible?
Having driven through the area twice last year, there are lots of places for great golf courses just screaming to be "discovered." Of course, that is not a secret, I suppose, around here.
Tony - widening the road would make the project uneconomical for the road would cost more than the second course.
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Chris - Thanks for taking the time to respond to each of us. Some others pointed out that maybe we should give you the benefit of the doubt on your comments. I'm more inclined to ask you to clarify because as you know you are posting on a message board that is viewed by a much larger audience than the number of people that post here. I think the way you wrote your comments begged for some clarification, and I think that clarification that you've taken the time to post will serve you better in the long run than us simply giving you the benefit of the doubt.
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Ben:
This issue with Mac and who you think should be in his foursome is odd. You know he put up a wish list thread on GCA and rounded out his invite from Mr. Youngscap by inviting along a total stranger who had a wish to see the SHGC. Of course those of us who made the trip are glad he did that as we made a new friend in Tony. What is the real issue here, please tell us? That was a whole lot of answer for JC's question, no?
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Eric,
This whole thing has moved to the private sector (PM's). I should've sent my original statement in that manner. The only person that has stepped out of line is me.
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What an interesting read.
CJ slams his neighbors, but then again he didn't really mean it, I guess.
Ben writes off the cuff a bit and JC reighns him is and adds a self-rightous slap or two for good measure.
I'm blaming the weather for the raw nerves.
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What an interesting read.
CJ slams his neighbors, but then again he didn't really mean it, I guess.
Ben writes off the cuff a bit and JC reighns him is and adds a self-rightous slap or two for good measure.
I'm blaming the weather for the raw nerves.
Why don't you just stick to growing grass and maintaining golf courses?!?
Maybe the real problem is that all of our emoticons are broken.
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Tim,
you can make your own little faces...:>) (happy...funny...smile) :>( (sad, unhappy, crying about something on GCA)
Try and see if you can figure this one out ..|..
cold here, gonna snow tonight in south TX, how's the weather where your at?
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What an interesting read.
CJ slams his neighbors, but then again he didn't really mean it, I guess.
Ben writes off the cuff a bit and JC reighns him is and adds a self-rightous slap or two for good measure.
I'm blaming the weather for the raw nerves.
Don - with all due respect, I didn't slam anyone. But, you and some others twist words and slam me? The only neighbor comment I made was in relation to our having less debt. That was it, and it was in context to justify our considering a second course - its simply easier when you don't have to add to existing borrowings.
Sure didn't mean to hit a nerve - you can decide for yourself if I really mean it, I guess.
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Don - I'm guessing it is either an upside down cross or someone with a really long middle toe looking down at their foot. This thread has enough issues that I will assume you aren't trying to introduce some evil religious aspect and I will go with the long toe.
It is cold here too but no snow for now. I'm just glad that we in Tennessee haven't had the 80 inches or so that some of my Northeastern friends have received. How's the coursedealing with the cold south Texas winter?
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Chris,
I have no dog in this hunt, but to me, the casual observer, your comments came across as a dig at your neighbors. Had you left out the "unlike some of our neighbors" preface I might think different. And to be completely frank, I think if you were to look at it from the outside you might be a little more willing to at least consider how your comments come across a little differently then you desired.
Has the DR ownership changed hands since the early days or has your group always owned the land/club?
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Chris,
I have no dog in this hunt, but to me, the casual observer, your comments came across as a dig at your neighbors. Had you left out the "unlike some of our neighbors" preface I might think different. And to be completely frank, I think if you were to look at it from the outside you might be a little more willing to at least consider how your comments come across a little differently then you desired.
Has the DR ownership changed hands since the early days or has your group always owned the land/club?
Don - I already stated that, in hindsight, I could have written better so I guess we agree. That said, there was no dig. You should re-read the post, it wasn't that confusing, and certainly not deserving of high drama in reaction. The sin, if any, was it could have been better written and I have already acknowledged that. Fair enough?
We are not the original owner of the club, have been active in the Sand Hills for 15 years, are very experienced in the world of golf, and are value buyers. We look for value and we hope to add it as well.
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Chris,
I wasn't confused and far from dramatic. Just an honest response to your words.
So for the record, to which neighbor clubs with huge debt loads and pretentious members were you referring?
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In the words of Johnny Carson...this is some weird, wild stuff! (insert smiling emoticon)
First of JC and Eric, thanks. I appreciate the kind words and gestures.
Ben, thanks for the PM. I actually read it before I read this thread.
Hmmm...where to start. Clients vs. friends.
My two best friends from the Marines, whom I met in the early 1990's, have been in and out of Afghanistan/Iraq since 2001/2002. I rarely see them, but do communicate via email and the phone. The last time they were State-side, I popped up to DC to see them. And they don't golf...they actually laugh at the fact that I golf. They lift weights, train hard core in the martial arts, shoot, and blow things up. Golfing is for sissy's in their mind. So...I ain't inviting them to Sand Hills!
I used the word clients rather than friends to distingush between GCA guys and non-GCA guys. Poor choice of words...maybe. I get that. But many of my clients are my best friends and I've worked with many of them for 15 years or so. They've been there for the birth of my two children, they visited me in the hospital during my two surgeries, and they've, essentially, taught me the game of golf. They like to go to play golf as well. In fact, I just got back from spending the entire day with two of them. They frequent amazing golf courses too. In fact, tonight we made plans for Pine Valley this summer (and some other courses you wouldn't believe)...they are buddies with members. They do things like this often. Hence, my wanting to repay them for their generosity with the Sand Hills invite. But, alas, they didn't want to go to Nebraska. DUMB ASSES!!! (insert smiling emoticon)
But this opened the door for me to invite Eric, meet John and Adam. And start that thread and get Tony out to Sand Hills. Like I mentioned before, it all worked out for the best. I can tease my local friends/clients about being so stupid turning down a Sand Hills invite and I got to meet people whom I hope are friends for life. Win-win!
And I get the fact that through this internet communication sometimes it is hard to effectively communicate, things might be taken the wrong way, wording isn't correct, frustrations can boil up, things like that. If you have an issue with me, you can call me, email me, or IM me to talk about it. I'm not a pussy, I won't run from things like this. I've been through the ringer in life many times over (high school sports, state championships, Marine Corps, Somalia, martial arts champion, medical mis-diagnosis, double hip replacement before the age of 37, starting two practices/business, dealing with the Great Recession, tech bubble, being a husband and father) and talking about issues on a golf course architecture site is not really going to phase me. Let's talk about it, work it out, and move on. If it is a fundamental disagreement that will never be solved. Fine. We can agree to disagree and avoid one another. But I doubt that will be the case.
Anyway...a lab on amphetamines. Seriously!! (insert smiley) Yeah, I kind of get that too. But, hey, what can I say...I freakin' love the game, I get passionate about talking about it...and maybe in a way that very few do. But if the shoe fits...wear it!!
Ben...I'll pop you a PM now.
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Chris,
I wasn't confused and far from dramatic. Just an honest response to your words.
So for the record, to which neighbor clubs with huge debt loads and pretentious members were you referring?
Don, Ok, my friend, enough of you banging on me tonight. Please re-read the post and ponder. I'm afraid you ARE confused, I never said any neighboring clubs have huge debt loads or pretentious members. Here is what I did say:
"Unlike our neighbors, Dismal River has little debt". The statement was about Dismal having little debt. This isn't controversial in the least and is a simple statement of fact in context to the "why" a second course?
...and...
"In general, they {our members} are real, not pretentious, and respect the game". A reference to OUR great members and not a reference in any way to any other club or any other clubs members. We have a terrific group of members, thats all!
The "how long have you been beating your wife" game is getting a old.
This was a post about Exotic Game in the Sand Hills. I responded and tried to give a justification for our consideration, for I sincerely thought some here would enjoy it. Enough said.
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Chris,
OK, I guess I was confused because I thought the phrase "unlike our neighbors" was an attempt to compare and contrast DR to other clubs in the area when in fact it was just a meaningless way for you to start a paragraph. I'll admit, that confused me.
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Chris
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Chris or anyone else who knows the area well: is the land for the second course the same as/different from the first course? I'm real eager to see how different it turns out, compared to the first.
I think architects like Doak or Devries are MUCH better choices than Tiger. I feel sure DR will get a far better course that way. I also bet DR gets a more marketable course. If Tiger regains his form I'm 100% wrong about the latter.
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No big deal as far as I'm concerned. Butler, get me my night slippers!
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Chris,
OK, I guess I was confused because I thought the phrase "unlike our neighbors" was an attempt to compare and contrast DR to other clubs in the area when in fact it was just a meaningless way for you to start a paragraph. I'll admit, that confused me.
Speaking of missing emoticons, where is the one of the smileys beating a dead horse ;D ;D
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Jim Nugent,
If you know about the constellation map, you will understand that the land is varied, to say the least.
So, I suppose the answer to your question has to be yes.
While it all may look the same on the surface, each acre is different.
One of the keys, that perhaps only a critical eye could differentiate, is how well the architect picks his route. I believe Dick Daley was given some insight into picking the better orientation of the corridors, when he was dreaming of his project. The reasons for this preferred orientation, as I recall, has mostly to do with the winter winds. Trying to mitigate any negative impact on the features, being the ideal.
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JC,
Your breadth of knowledge is breathtaking. Please share your expertise with us now that clicking on the emoticoms above yields nothing.
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The reasons for this preferred orientation, as I recall, has mostly to do with the winter winds. Trying to mitigate any negative impact on the features, being the ideal.
Are you talking about erosion during construction? Perhaps I am wrong, but I doubt that there is much golf being played in the winter there, and grassed areas shouldn't be that impacted, while bunkers that might reasosonably affect play can be typically covered (don't they do that at Sand Hills?). If the natural environment is that fragile, maybe a golf course shouldn't go there. As if routing a course is not complicated enough!
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JC,
Your breadth of knowledge is breathtaking. Please share your expertise with us now that clicking on the emoticoms above yields nothing.
A smiley face is nothing more than a colon next to a closed parenthesis. Here it is with a space in between : ) Here it is with no space :)
Start there and we can move on to more complex smileys after that.
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Speaking of colons, this thread could use a clease
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Thank you Professor Jones. Now I understand why they pay you the big bucks! :)
Testing- :D
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Are you talking about erosion during construction? Perhaps I am wrong, but I doubt that there is much golf being played in the winter there, and grassed areas shouldn't be that impacted, while bunkers that might reasosonably affect play can be typically covered (don't they do that at Sand Hills?). If the natural environment is that fragile, maybe a golf course shouldn't go there. As if routing a course is not complicated enough!
No Lou, I wasn't specifically referring to construction.
I was referring to what Dick Daley has related to me when he was routing his dream course just south of North Platte.
I would categorize the environment as "That fragile". I just think forethought in natures impact is very important on several key levels. One is the playability, the others would be cost related. BTW, I'm not aware if they cover the bunkers at SH, I do know at Ballyneal, Dave shoots the cellulose pulp on a couple of high sandy spots, mitigating the work needed in the spring. As I understand it, that has worked out very well and the course requires much less attention in the spring.
Funny you mention construction though. When the original owners were building the clubhouse at DR, I heard that construction crews would arrive some mornings with their tools completely covered in sand.
Orientation is key in this region. i.e. It never fails that on ether Memorial Day weekend or the 4th of July, a wind nearing 100 mph will whip up, out of nowhere. Newbie campers at Lake McConaughy will often find anything left out over night at the base of the dam.
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What I find interesting is that Mac is often the recipient of shots from you and many of the Max's Lounge crowd yet to my knowledge, only Mayhugh has met him.
This comment is misleading, and that must be unintentional.
The "Max's Lounge crowd" refers, I assume, to people that post on another website called Max's Lounge. That group of people includes both Mac Plumart & JC Jones. If people on Max's were making disparaging comments about or to Mac, I suspect he would have reacted by now. I had never seen any "shots" at Mac posted there, and if I search the site now I cannot find anything negative about him.
JC should also have been aware that, in addition to me, at least three other people from that site have met Mac. After all, he's one of them and another guy has been on a trip with both JC & Mac. I guess he just forgot.
I realize that there may be some sort of mystery about the Max's Lounge site. I am just someone who posts there, and am no sort of spokesman. For me, it's just like being a member of another club, with some of the same people as GCA belonging and some different ones. Some of the discussion topics overlap and some are different, but the tone of the site is no more critical of individuals than GCA is.
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John...
I think most, if not all, of these issues have been worked out. Ben hammered me for comments I made concerning who I took to Sand Hills. When I didn't respond, due to my being with clients all day, JC responded. Ben and I have since IM'd and I feel everything is good on that front. I respect Ben, admire his service to the country, and wish him nothing but the best on his career aspirations upon the conclusion of his tour of duty.
JC,
I hope you feel no need to respond to John's post and de-rail a site devoted to golf architecture onto a topic about me and whether people are taking shots at me or not.
If we can all move on...that would be great.
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I would be curious to hear what the guys at Max's Lounge had to say about the possibility of Tiger building a second course at Dismal River. I would hope it was more productive than what went on here.