Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Kyle Harris on January 07, 2011, 11:22:36 AM
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The list:
Brigantine Golf Course
Cobbs Creek Olde
Galen Hall
Inniscrone
Jeffersonville
Middletown
McCullough's Emerald Links
Paxon Hollow
Reading Country Club
The Club at Morgan Hill
This list is not in order yet and the only criteria I'll reveal so far in the interest of open discussion is that I must have played the course and that the peak green fee is under $100. There is one other limiting factor that is taking a few of the more popular courses in the area out of the equation. My rankings reflect an opportunity cost rating, meaning these courses typically win out over their neighbors when traveling from Philadelphia. (ie Why play Ravens Claw when one can drive a little further and pay a little less for a better golf course at Reading Country Club?)
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Kyle
Have you played
Hershey Links
Pilgrim's Oak or
Iron valley?
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A very solid list Kyle.
One more that comes to mind for me is Downingtown CC.
Mark
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Kyle
Have you played
Hershey Links
Pilgrim's Oak or
Iron valley?
Pilgrims Oak and Iron Valley.
Played Pilgrims Oak for the second time this passed Monday. It's decent, but has a few too many awkward stretches on the second nine.
Iron Valley is on the cusp of this list. I've played it once and I'm keen to get back, however, at this time it doesn't seem like it would push me to drive further out from Galen Hall to play.
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Mark:
Downingtown may be a candidate to the final list. I have to do some research as there was a time when the price was much higher and they did not meet my last, as of yet unnamed, criteria.
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I was under the impression that Lederach was within 100 miles of Philly. If so, Sean Arble is going to take you to task over leaving it out.
;)
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I was under the impression that Lederach was within 100 miles of Philly. If so, Sean Arble is going to take you to task over leaving it out.
;)
Nope. Does not meet my criteria. Big clue as it's the unlisted one and a big thorn in my side.
Otherwise, it would be well within this list.
Architects in Phillipsburg would be on the list as well (over Morgan Hill) if the peak green fee were under $100.
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Kyle,
Love your list, with the exception of the missing Lederach which you(we) need to get to. It would bump Middletown for me.
LOVE the unexpected inclusion of Brigantine! ;D
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Kyle,
Love your list, with the exception of the missing Lederach which you(we) need to get to. It would bump Middletown for me.
LOVE the unexpected inclusion of Brigantine! ;D
Might as well let the cat out of the bag.
Lederach's cart policy disqualifies it.
I've played it several times, but as you know I like to walk and I don't like paying for a golf cart I do not wish to use. There is simply no option to play Lederach without paying for the golf cart.
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Don't pretty much all of these places have the same rate whether you walk or ride on a weekend?
Mark
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Glen Mills would be on my list. Fully agree on Paxon Hollow ... always a treat to play there.
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I rather like the inclusion of Middletown. While at the very least holes like 17 and 18 are definitely weak it has a fair share of very good holes like 2, 4, 7, 12, 13, 15. I did not include 16 because the green is minuscule and the 17th tee is a death trap. Probably had some land taken from them down in that corner in the past.
I've never played:
Galen Hall
Jeffersonville (no excuse)
Paxon Hollow
Reading Country Club
The Club at Morgan Hill
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John,
If you (or anyone else) need a playing partner at Morgan Hill which is up my way, let me know. Could even double up and play Schuylkill CC after!
Mark
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Kyle
It is a pity that Lederach doesn't offer a walking rate, but I wouldn't walk the course as I know I would become frustrated with the added distance. This issue is one of the biggest drawbacks of newish publics and I dare say newish privates.
What is the wild n' wonderful course Mayday talks about? I can't recall the name, but it looks to be pretty quirky.
Ciao
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Would love to, Mark.
Bringantine never did much for me for whatever reason, nothing to do with the viscous flies either. Inniscrone is a beast. The narrow holes cut out of the trees are the only holes I don't like. Love Emerald. The greens at Lederach really do a number on your card but they are fun to play. I love your criteria, Kyle. Carts and cart fees are an abomination.
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Sean,
It is probably Paxon Hollow.
Kyle,
Have you played Springfield? Back Creek? Odessa?
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Most excellent Sir Kyle! I will cross Lederach off my wish list.
Kyle,
Love your list, with the exception of the missing Lederach which you(we) need to get to. It would bump Middletown for me.
LOVE the unexpected inclusion of Brigantine! ;D
Might as well let the cat out of the bag.
Lederach's cart policy disqualifies it.
I've played it several times, but as you know I like to walk and I don't like paying for a golf cart I do not wish to use. There is simply no option to play Lederach without paying for the golf cart.
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All these places have cart fees and even times where one may not walk
HOWEVER
There is no such time at Lederach, and there is no rate which does not include a golf cart. You simply do not have a choice if you wish to play there.
Garland,
Don't cross it off. In fact, play there and be obstinate about the fact you can't walk. Demand dictates policy in these instances.
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I rather like the inclusion of Middletown. While at the very least holes like 17 and 18 are definitely weak it has a fair share of very good holes like 2, 4, 7, 12, 13, 15. I did not include 16 because the green is minuscule and the 17th tee is a death trap. Probably had some land taken from them down in that corner in the past.
Negative, that portion of the property is as it was.
I quite like the 17th hole - it's a crazy green and a tough 4 even though it's only 260 yards.
How is 18 weak? I think it's one of the stronger holes on the property! What a great tee shot.
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My beef with Middletown 18 is that there really isn't much going on. Up hill, ditch on the left. Not saying I par it every time, definitely not. I just find 17 and 18 to be boring.
I do like the little mounds in 17 fairway.
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My beef with Middletown 18 is that there really isn't much going on. Up hill, ditch on the left. Not saying I par it every time, definitely not. I just find 17 and 18 to be boring.
I do like the little mounds in 17 fairway.
Never lay up on 17, myself. Trying to attack that green is far too interesting. The left side of that hole needs to be opened up as well.
A shot must be correctly shaped off the 18 tee and must flirt with the OB tree line to get a turbo boost and near reach the green, else it will be condemned to the fate of the ditch left from which a recovery is awkward. I like it.
I'm saddened that you haven't mentioned the middle stretch from 8-11. I've found, more often or not that how one scores there makes or breaks the round and the half-par holes are more than appealing especially with the 12-16 stretch that follows. The course has VERY good flow in this regard.
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Why did you leave Berkleigh off the list?
The short of it is that I could only name 10 and Berkleigh is on the cusp.
It would have to go toe to toe with Reading and Galen Hall based on the criteria of opportunity cost. I tend to think that if I were to have to divide 10 rounds between the 3, Berkleigh would be on the short end of that list. Berkleigh has handful of Par 3s and Par 5s that I am very keen on but the stretch of holes around the clubhouse along the entrance knock it below the other two.
One of the keys to this list is that it's centered in Philadelphia - so the time required to get to each place is factored in the cost. How often is Berkleigh going to draw me to drive a little further in lieu of Reading?
I'd imagine the attitude could change if I made the central location Reading or Allentown - in fact, I think it would measurably because of places like Olde Homestead and even Jack Frost National.
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Kyle,
Middletown 8 is a stout par 3, I like it. 9 is a nice short hole, never know where I want to drive the ball, up into the neck, up and to the left, lay back... good hole. 10 has my number. I may have never pared that hole. I should play it like a par four. I love 11. Great short hole. 12 tee is another death trap. You need to let the group on that tee play if anyone in your group is going for 12 green.
Favorite hole on the course is 15. Just like the way it flows. Dogleg left, pretty long, very graceful but difficult. Perhaps could us a bunker on the inside for those trying to cut the corner from the back tee, but not necessary.
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Kyle, unless the policy has changed...and I just checked with KBM on this...the rate is at times as low as $40 and never goes above 75-80 and you are NOT required to take a cart. Might the position you espoused earlier be a little misleading? In a way, if the rate is $40 and the cart is included, some might argue the cart "feels free."
Again, I just talked to KBM and maybe he might chime in too, but if that's true, failure to include Lederach on the list is an omission you might want to look at again...still, good work, good list, and great job in all your work efforts as an architect/poster.
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Why did you leave Berkleigh off the list?
The short of it is that I could only name 10 and Berkleigh is on the cusp.
It would have to go toe to toe with Reading and Galen Hall based on the criteria of opportunity cost. I tend to think that if I were to have to divide 10 rounds between the 3, Berkleigh would be on the short end of that list. Berkleigh has handful of Par 3s and Par 5s that I am very keen on but the stretch of holes around the clubhouse along the entrance knock it below the other two.
Along the road at Berkleigh are holes 14 which I think is outstanding, hole 15 is good, 16 requires some thinking on the tee shot, but the approach is a difficult wedge shot, 17 is another wedge shot, but an interesting putting surface and the same for 18. I think it is far better a course than Galen Hall. Galen has some real dog holes and the island green is ridiculous.
I walk when I play Lederach, am I getting special treatment or did they change policies.
I've walked there too, but I'm paying the same rate for those who ride.
I'm not terribly fond of that policy and I don't think they're giving the carts away for free. I can understand having times where carts are required where the cart is charged separately (meaning, that if it's not a crowded day they won't make someone take the cart and bump the rate down accordingly). Lederach simply does not have this rate structure. It's not like I can walk up on a particularly hot or non-peak day and play for $10-20 less than the rate WITH the golf cart.
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As for Berkleigh vs. Galen Hall I've long been a champion of Galen Hall. What are the dog holes at Galen Hall? I can't really think of one that wouldn't have features that compare with similar at Berkleigh? 13 and 16 at Galen Hall are bland to some with some absolutely killer putting surfaces.
I've played Berkleigh once, and don't remember much about the holes around the clubhouse. As I mentioned to you the other day, I'm certainly looking to go back and can definitely be swayed on subsequent playings.
You're right in that the 14th is outstanding, as are 2 and 4. The 5th and the 8th don't do much for me but they aren't terrible either. I need to get back there.
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Thanks for that info Kelly.
A couple friends of mine played there in the fall, paid around $50.00, and said they walked.
I'm glad to hear they weren't pulling my leg, and were using theirs.
Kyle,
I could understand your position if they disallowed walking, but that's not the case. If the rates at Lederach are in line with the others on your list and the architecture is at par or better then it's as Jay suggested, the cart is a 'freebie'.
Of course, you don't have to play there if you feel ripped off, but the course seems like an excellent value for walkers or riders. My friends thoroughly enjoyed it.
I'll have to save your list for future reference if I get down that way. Thanks
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Thanks for that info Kelly.
A couple friends of mine played there in the fall, paid around $50.00, and said they walked.
I'm glad to hear they weren't pulling my leg, and were using theirs.
Kyle,
I could understand your position if they disallowed walking, but that's not the case. If the rates at Lederach are in line with the others on your list and the architecture is at par or better then it's as Jay suggested, the cart is a 'freebie'.
Of course, you don't have to play there if you feel ripped off, but the course seems like an excellent value for walkers or riders. My friends thoroughly enjoyed it.
I'll have to save your list for future reference if I get down that way. Thanks
Jim:
We'll assume that $37 is a walking rate, no cart. As per the posted 2011 rates, this is the weekday after 3PM rate.
My analysis would then go to this way. The nearest courses in the area on the list would be Jeffersonville and Reading CC. At the same time (3PM on a weekday) I could walk Jeffersonville for $22 as per the 2010 rate (this will probably go up in 2011). That's almost two rounds at Jeffersonville for every round at Lederach.
Jeffersonville is a shorter walk and probably an equivalent or slightly less golf course architecturally. HOWEVER, does almost two rounds at Jeffersonville equal one round at Lederach? Most golfers have limited time and money - that decision is a no-brainer to me. The kicker then comes with the peak rates. Lederach's is north of $70 while Jeffersonville's is around $40.
But, personally, without the cart-required policy. (Call it what you want, if you're charging me for it, you're subtly requiring it. Who would pay for something they did not want if it weren't required to use it?) Lederach definitely makes this list even with the opportunity cost criteria.
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Kyle:
Thanks for your listing -- takes a bit of courage to post on GCA with specifics.
Now allow me to add a few comments.
Brigantine Golf Course - if the list included courses with the most mosquitos then Bigatine would be a sure fire winner. A laugh out out loud when the official names for the course is Brigatine Golf "Links" -- certainly a stretch if there ever was one.
Let me also say McCullough's is a good choice save for the fact that the two holes across the street are completely out of character and the closing hole is as lame as one gets.
A better choice would have been either of the three NJ courses ...
Sea Oaks -- top rate is $105 so it's just on the other side -- but that rate only applies on weekends / holidays during the compressed summer months -- other times it's below.
Ocean County at Atlantis -- one of the earliest George Fazio designs and gets little attention from many here. Has more to it than a few of the layouts you mentioned.
Vineyards Golf at Renault Resort is anoither layout that has the goods to be mentioned.
Kyle, your work is very much Pennsy related and save for the likes of Morgan Hill really doesn't have the goods -- I'll give you a pass on Jeffersonville because of your affinity for the place.
Lederach should be a candidate and Iron Valley, as previously mentioned, is also a good choice.
You also missed out on thelikes opf Hominy Hill in Colts Neck and The Knoll in Boonton which is under 100 miles away from Phila and under $100 too.
Looks like a bit of personal homework is needed. ;D
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Kyle:
Thanks for your listing -- takes a bit of courage to post on GCA with specifics.
Now allow me to add a few comments.
Brigantine Golf Course - if the list included courses with the most mosquitos then Bigatine would be a sure fire winner. A laugh out out loud when the official names for the course is Brigatine Golf "Links" -- certainly a stretch if there ever was one.
Let me also say McCullough's is a good choice save for the fact that the two holes across the street are completely out of character and the closing hole is as lame as one gets.
A better choice would have been either of the three NJ courses ...
Sea Oaks -- top rate is $105 so it's just on the other side -- but that rate only applies on weekends / holidays during the compressed summer months -- other times it's below.
Ocean County at Atlantis -- one of the earliest George Fazio designs and gets little attention from many here. Has more to it than a few of the layouts you mentioned.
Vineyards Golf at Renault Resort is anoither layout that has the goods to be mentioned.
Kyle, your work is very much Pennsy related and save for the likes of Morgan Hill really doesn't have the goods -- I'll give you a pass on Jeffersonville because of your affinity for the place.
Lederach should be a candidate and Iron Valley, as previously mentioned, is also a good choice.
You also missed out on thelikes opf Hominy Hill in Colts Neck and The Knoll in Boonton which is under 100 miles away from Phila and under $100 too.
Looks like a bit of personal homework is needed. ;D
Yes, I've not played any of your alternate suggestions - this list is dynamic and simply reflects my habits and affinities.
As I recall, you've not been to Jeffersonville or Reading, correct?
Are you saying Inniscrone doesn't deliver the goods?
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Why did you leave Berkleigh off the list?
Good call Kelly. Forgot to mention Berkleigh.
mark
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Kyle,
I'll hazard a guess that there are less expensive courses on your list that are equally as good or perhaps even better than Lederach. What I asked was if there are courses in line with Lederach's cart-inclusive rates, and are there any on your list that charge more?
What does it matter if the cart-inclusive price is a subtle requirement? Good architecture and walking are your concerns, but if you receive as good of a value for monies spent at Lederach as you do at some of the others on your list, and you are still able to walk, the policy has little bearing on the equation.
Value is also a personal perception, and if you feel 'taken' by forking over for a cart you don't want then that's that. I also don't think it's quite fair to a course to disallow their best possible rates from the mix while comparing the best possible rate from another. If Lederach has times when it is a 'bargain' then that would be the times I would choose to play it, and I would look for the best bang for my prime time buck elsewhere.
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Kyle,
Are you pulling a Cirba/Moriarity/Paul/MacWood on me and refusing to answer my questions?
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Kyle,
I'm hazard a guess that there are less expensive courses on your list that are equally as good or perhaps even better than Lederach. What I asked was if there are courses in line with Lederach's cart-inclusive rates, and are there any on your list that charge more?
What does it matter if the cart-inclusive price is a subtle requirement? Good architecture and walking are your concerns, but if you receive as good of a value for monies spent at Lederach as you do at some of the others on your list, and you are still able to walk, the policy has little bearing on the equation.
Value is also a personal perception, and if you feel 'taken' by forking over for a cart you don't want then that's that. I also don't think it's quite fair to a course to disallow their best possible rates from the mix while comparing the best possible rate from another. If Lederach has times when it is a 'bargain' then that would be the times I would choose to play it, and I would look for the best bang for my prime time buck elsewhere.
I'm with you, but I have the right to not give patronage to those places. I try to get back once a year, but will never be a regular patron so long as they do not encourage walking in some form outside of merely permitting it. I feel the rate structure is a step in the process of eliminating consumption choices i.e. the choice is made for me. So long as other places offer me the choice in how I spend the money, I'm fine.
Why not add a more needed item like a sleeve of golf balls for an additional $12? Golf ball selection is as much a personal choice as whether or not one walks or rides in my opinion.
Golf is a value proposition, and this is what I value.
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Kyle,
Are you pulling a Cirba/Moriarity/Paul/MacWood on me and refusing to answer my questions?
Mike,
I actually missed it in the shuffle, but no, I've not played either.
Odessa is on my radar, however, as the picture I've seen are appealing. Statistically I'll get to Springfield with Bausch sooner or later. I also need to get to Deerfield and Scotland Run.
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Kyle:
Never said Inniscrone was a bad choice -- but there are a number of others you have failed to see.
Way to many I might add.
Hominy Hill is a superb Trent Jones course. Your affinity for Cobbs Creek is noted but frankly Cobbs has miles and miles to go in order to be successfully presented. It's a dream pick by you and should do a good bit more internal work before being selected. A place like The Knoll (a Banks design) is already ahead of it in my mind.
I gave you pass on Jeffersonville because you really like it and I have not played it.
I have a few friends of mine who have played Reading and were not overly impressed -- certainly not beyond their likes for the Jersey-related courses I mentioned.
Kyle, don't be afraid to cross the Delaware because Pennsy public golf -- save for the likes of Morgan Hill and Lederach, plus one or two others at best, is really a number of steps behind Jersey.
One other note -- I believe SR in Williamstown, NJ is above the $100 threshold. If not-- it most certainly should be included.
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Kyle:
Never said Inniscrone was a bad choice -- but there are a number of others you have failed to see.
Way to many I might add.
Hominy Hill is a superb Trent Jones course. Your affinity for Cobbs Creek is noted but frankly Cobbs has miles and miles to go in order to be successfully presented. It's a dream pick by you and should do a good bit more internal work before being selected. A place like The Knoll (a Banks design) is already ahead of it in my mind.
I gave you pass on Jeffersonville because you really like it and I have not played it.
I have a few friends of mine who have played Reading and were not overly impressed -- certainly not beyond their likes for the Jersey-related courses I mentioned.
Kyle, don't be afraid to cross the Delaware because Pennsy public golf -- save for the likes of Morgan Hill and Lederach, plus one or two others at best, is really a number of steps behind Jersey.
One other note -- I believe SR in Williamstown, NJ is above the $100 threshold. If not-- it most certainly should be included.
Matt,
The question of this rating is:
Is The Knoll worth the drive out of Philadelphia over all those other places? This is based on OPPORTUNITY COST, so if I'm driving all the way up to Parsippany to play, The Knoll's experience must overcome the cost of the drive and time as well.
I certainly appreciate and understand your suggestions, but your analysis falls short if you haven't actually seen or played Reading, Jeffersonville, Galen Hall or Middletown.
I'll give you my New Jersey list that I know I need to play, how does it sound?
Heron Glen
Scotland Run (though expensive)
The rest of the Neshanic Facility
Hominy Hill
Royce Brook
The Knoll
Sea Oaks
Ballamoor
Seaview Pines
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It is interesting how we think of "Philly" golf. As one heads in the direction of NYC the distance from Philly shrinks versus other directions .
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It is interesting how we think of "Philly" golf. As one heads in the direction of NYC the distance from Philly shrinks versus other directions .
I agree.
I think it's because it's a lot more difficult to drive 50 miles toward New York City than it is to drive 50 miles toward Harrisburg.
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Kyle:
Here's what you started with --
ANY public course within 100 miles of Phila -- isn't that right ?
And they needed to be less than $100 at peak times -- right ?
Those were YOUR conditions.
Now you are adding the time and cost to get there.
Are there other unsaid qualifiers you wish to add?
Kyle, look -- you need to do some serious Jersey homework -- your list is Pennsy-centric -- must have some fear in crossing the Delaware.
The Knoll is one of the finest Bank courses and if you check the history you'll see it was highly touted by a great many people -- no less than Dave Marr, among others, had it among their personal top ten. Hominy Hill is easily beyond just about any of the name courses you mentioned. The one gem you did mention Inniscrone is quite good and has something to rave about.
Cobbs Creek is a work in progress -- but it has miles to go before people start including it as a bonafide gem. Years of neglect and a failure to provide serious $$ is evident there. I like the course but it being promoted as being current and contemporary and a worthy peer to the others mentioned is truly presumptious on your part.
I have played Galen Hall and Middletown and frankly the names of the key Jersey players I mentioned is ahead of them.
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Matt,
From my still un-edited first post. What isn't clear?
"My rankings reflect an opportunity cost rating, meaning these courses typically win out over their neighbors when traveling from Philadelphia. (ie Why play Ravens Claw when one can drive a little further and pay a little less for a better golf course at Reading Country Club?)"
I didn't add that, it's still in the first post.
As for the old PennylVANIA vs. New Jersey thing. I don't agree. There's plenty of character over here. Shell out the $4.00 and cross the river more. ;)
PS. I like Cobbs Creek because the greens are lights out difficult. Short-side yourself or get on the high side of one and you're dead. No question. Conditioning is also way down on my list of criteria for judging. Golf course maintenance is simply a question of getting the right mind and the money spent correctly. It's not architecture.
It's clear you and I see different things in golf courses, which is just fine. I'm more than happy to seek out anything you suggest though. I believe that every golf course should be played at least twice.
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All I can say is the next time I get within 100 miles of Philly during golf season, I ain't going public!
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All I can say is the next time I get within 100 miles of Philly during golf season, I ain't going public!
You'd be missing a lot. ;-)
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Kyle,
As I said in a previous post, I'm not trying to change your opinion.
Just for the record though, can you answer my earlier question which asked if any of the other courses you chose (including the ones that don't allow walking at certain times) are more expensive to walk than Lederach?
...and you are the first walker that I've ever heard say this: "....they (Lederach) do not encourage walking in some form outside of merely permitting it." ;D
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I'll second Renault Winery course - very underrated
What about Twisted Dune?
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Kyle,
As I said in a previous post, I'm not trying to change your opinion.
Just for the record though, can you answer my earlier question which asked if any of the other courses you chose (including the ones that don't allow walking at certain times) are more expensive to walk than Lederach?
...and you are the first walker that I've ever heard say this: "....they (Lederach) do not encourage walking in some form outside of merely permitting it." ;D
McCullough's Emerald Links is probably close. I think it's around $75 to ride on a weekend.
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John F:
TW is just above $100 in the peak summer weekend and holidays -- but otherwise below it and should be mentioned.
Good call on that front !
Kyle:
It's nice to create lists from the limited number of courses you have played.
You say you don't agree about my PA v NJ discussion but it's laughable because you have not done
anything close to serious homework to tell me I'm all wet given the quality NJ layouts I have played.
By all means -- knock yourself out.
However ...
Your homework is not complete in my mind.
You Pennsy boys have an aversion to believe that golf exists on THE OTHER side of the Delaware.
The so-called "character" design argument is amusing because I named no less than half a dozen courses -- likely can add a few more -- that easily surpass the eight (8) courses on your list that I have played.
Kyle, Cobbs Creek is a "hope" type course. I can "hope" that the powers that be will get off their collective duffs and do something. Since you have not played The Knoll -- correct me if I am mistaken -- but the Banks course here in Jersey is already there and is delivering. It's pedigree is no less than Cobbs Creek. Anyone not making the trip and then proclaiming better public courses that are under the 100 mile and 100 dollar threshold is again taking an "incomplete grade" on the subject.
By the way -- I have played each of the courses I have mentioned twice -- in some cases way more than that. Ditto for the eight (8) Pennsy courses you have mentioned.
Kyle, Pennsy public golf is more behind than you imagine (although hats off to Moran for Morgan Hill and Lederach) -- put some gas in the tank, wipe off the GPS unit and play the ones I mentioned. When you finish the assignment -- I'll be more than happy to weigh seriously at that time the pros and cons. ;)
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Kyle,
Thanks.
Not mentioned by you, but, I have played Honeybrook. How does it rank among the publics in the area?
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Matt,
Who are these "Pennsy Boys" who don't want cross the river? I think I've played about 98% of the public courses in the Garden State, and I think Kyle's list only suffers by title. I think it should be called something like, "Best Value Public courses within 100 miles of Philly based on affordability, architecture, and walkability", but that doesn't exactly roll off the tongue.
Are you working for the NJ Dept of Tourism these days? ;) ;D
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I can't swim, thus I get nervous crossing bridges.
Mark
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Matt:
Is it worth it for me to drive two hours one way, play golf for 4 hours (depends on pace of play) and then drive another two hours back to play the Knoll? That's an opportunity cost of 8 hours plus the $44-$86 out of state green fee.
Compare that to Jeffersonville which is at most 45 minutes from most anywhere around Philadelphia with a green fee that does not exceed $45 and is usually in the $20-30 range for most of the day.
Reading is an hour out, with a cost around $45 peak and it's one of the best golf courses in terms of pace of play I've ever been on.
You do realize that people have to spend time and money in order to play the golf courses you rate, correct? And that these factors are amongst the decision points for most golfers? That's why this is an opportunity cost based list. Does The Knoll represent a fine place to play for someone like you who is A: A New Jersey Resident and B: I'm assuming within a 45 minute drive, yes. Would it rate higher than most of my list with that in mind? Yes.
As for Cobbs, it is a hope type course sure. You hope you stay below the hole. I'm telling you I rate it high because the greens are great and keep me coming back.
I think you're missing the point of this exercise. It's not comprehensive, it's not tell-all. Those things are impossible no matter how many golf courses you play. It's meant to be a personal look. That's why George started this whole concept.
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Kyle,
Thanks.
Not mentioned by you, but, I have played Honeybrook. How does it rank among the publics in the area?
Another cusp My Top 10 course. Joe Bausch and I talked about it the other day. I really do enjoy it and will get back as soon as I can.
Olde Homestead and Island Green by Jim Blaukavitch are there too.
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Matt,
Who are these "Pennsy Boys" who don't want cross the river? I think I've played about 98% of the public courses in the Garden State, and I think Kyle's list only suffers by title. I think it should be called something like, "Best Value Public courses within 100 miles of Philly based on affordability, architecture, and walkability", but that doesn't exactly roll off the tongue.
Are you working for the NJ Dept of Tourism these days? ;) ;D
That title doesn't fit, but is the entire premise here. That's why there is my explanation in the first post.
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I think the list should be titled, 'my favorite 10' rather than 'Top 10'., especially given your lists preferences for old, short and quirky, rather than championship caliber tests.
I prefer every course on your list of NJ courses that you haven't played yet to everything on your list except for Jeffersonville. I haven't played Reading though.
You should try Mercer Oaks East as well. Fast and firm, linksy and interesting, especially the front 9, 13 and 14. Not sure what it costs now, but in 2009 topped out at $52 weekend, $26 for in county. West course isn't bad either, just more straightforward.
Cart is included in all Morgan Hill rates as well. Can't imagine wanting to walk it anyway.
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I think the list should be titled, 'my favorite 10' rather than 'Top 10'., especially given your lists preferences for old, short and quirky, rather than championship caliber tests.
I prefer every course on your list of NJ courses that you haven't played yet to everything on your list except for Jeffersonville. I haven't played Reading though.
You should try Mercer Oaks East as well. Fast and firm, linksy and interesting, especially the front 9, 13 and 14. Not sure what it costs now, but in 2009 topped out at $52 weekend, $26 for in county. West course isn't bad either, just more straightforward.
Cart is included in all Morgan Hill rates as well. Can't imagine wanting to walk it anyway.
It's included, but the cart fee is listed and subtracted accordingly.
It is a bear to walk.
Does championship caliber trump short and quirky necessarily in terms of "Top?" All lists are subjective, even the magazine lists.
I would imagine that sort of thing should be implied. I appreciate the questions as to why I omitted something as opposed to what should be included. For example, if this list included private courses - the so-called bias to short and quirky would be gone.
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Kyle:
C'mon -- no one seriously walks Morgan HILL
Your list simply overdoses on a similar type theme layout -- with an emphasis on greensites and frankly any real sophisticated or comprehensive shotmaking. Galen Hall and Middletown are essentially similar type courses. You just don't have the depth of visits to provide some sort of real balance. No doubt it's YOUR list and YOUR opinion. But Kyle you need to get out more -- try heading east of the river to see what I have said. Happy to hear your take AFTER you have played them. By the way take I-95 across the Delaware and you can pocket the $4 -- put it to your gas bill. ;D
Kyle, The Knoll has been touted here SEVERAL TIMES. Do yourself a mega / huge favor and try to wrap your arms around the rightful fanfare the course generates. Too bad Pat Mucci isn't watching this thread that closely because he would no doubt chime in. Ditto George Bahto. The Knoll was rated among the top 40 courses in the USA back in its heyday.
You also seriously undervalue the proper role of conditioning. I don't expect The Knoll or Cobbs Creek to sport ANGC turf. But Cobbs Creek suffers because the lack of conditioning fails to shine critical light on what the design can be. I applaud your wishful thinking on Cobbs Creek but until it can get its act forward on a consistent basis -- your inclusion is more hope / dream than anything else. The comment that the greens are "great" is when they have consistency in terms of roll and presentation. Kyle, I like the course but it still trails the likes of The Knoll now.
You are right it's not a tell-all listing. It's yours. But keep in mind that comments are part and parcel of this site and when you post something it's fair game to comment. Playing the fullest range of courses does matter and I believe when you play the ones I took the time top mention you will find your listing will indeed be amended accordingly.
Mike:
Yeah, Chris Christie found out about GCA and forwarded me a few bucks to shill for Jersey ! ;D
The idea that Jersey doesn't have value and quality designed layouts is a myth. I recommended quite a few of Kyle has been
a no show -- thus far -- at plenty of them. From my vantage point he overdosed on the Keystone stuff. No doubt his prerogative but he needs to get out his mapquest and start adding a few more experiences.
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Kyle:
C'mon -- no one seriously walks Morgan HILL
Your list simply overdoses on a similar type theme layout -- with an emphasis on greensites and frankly any real sophisticated or comprehensive shotmaking. Galen Hall and Middletown are essentially similar type courses. You just don't have the depth of visits to provide some sort of real balance. No doubt it's YOUR list and YOUR opinion. But Kyle you need to get out more -- try heading east of the river to see what I have said. Happy to hear your take AFTER you have played them. By the way take I-95 across the Delaware and you can pocket the $4 -- put it to your gas bill. ;D
Kyle, The Knoll has been touted here SEVERAL TIMES. Do yourself a mega / huge favor and try to wrap your arms around the rightful fanfare the course generates. Too bad Pat Mucci isn't watching this thread that closely because he would no doubt chime in. Ditto George Bahto. The Knoll was rated among the top 40 courses in the USA back in its heyday.
You also seriously undervalue the proper role of conditioning. I don't expect The Knoll or Cobbs Creek to sport ANGC turf. But Cobbs Creek suffers because the lack of conditioning fails to shine critical light on what the design can be. I applaud your wishful thinking on Cobbs Creek but until it can get its act forward on a consistent basis -- your inclusion is more hope / dream than anything else. The comment that the greens are "great" is when they have consistency in terms of roll and presentation. Kyle, I like the course but it still trails the likes of The Knoll now.
You are right it's not a tell-all listing. It's yours. But keep in mind that comments are part and parcel of this site and when you post something it's fair game to comment. Playing the fullest range of courses does matter and I believe when you play the ones I took the time top mention you will find your listing will indeed be amended accordingly.
Mike:
Yeah, Chris Christie found out about GCA and forwarded me a few bucks to shill for Jersey ! ;D
The idea that Jersey doesn't have value and quality designed layouts is a myth. I recommended quite a few of Kyle has been
a no show -- thus far -- at plenty of them. From my vantage point he overdosed on the Keystone stuff. No doubt his prerogative but he needs to get out his mapquest and start adding a few more experiences.
Matt:
Others can vouch for this but I almost always mention The Knoll as a must-play in North Jersey strictly because of it's reputation. It's simply not worthy of a drive out of Philadelphia for the cost and time required to invest as compared to other options. I'm not saying it isn't a good golf course. I'm not saying I won't play it and won't want to go back, but it's low on the decision tree and requires a desire for an extraordinary effort to play golf. One akin to the desire to go to Bethpage for a day, not as a way to spend a casual afternoon of golf.
What the heck is comprehensive shotmaking? You mean to tell me there aren't a variety shots, strategies and options at either Middletown or Galen Hall? I heartily disagree there. Just because the shots aren't dictated by bunkers but instead some rather wild and interesting terrain (especially in the case of Galen Hall) doesn't mean that a premium isn't placed on shotmaking. Galen Hall and Middletown require something of the golfer that is very near and dear to my heart - to hit a shot against the natural tendency of the lie. In other words, at more than one point in the round the golfer is asked to hit a high fade into a green requiring a draw and vice versa. The severe right-to-left cant of the 4th fairway at Middletown is a prime example. The green demands a hooking shot to hold and not trundle down into the oblivion along the right side. Losing the shot right is a good way along the way to a six or higher while succeeding with the shot will give the golfer a great crack at 3.
Both Galen Hall and Middletown also feature a variety of half-par holes where the success tee shot, or the decision made on the tee shot, dictates which half of the par will be won. Play the eleventh or seventeeth too aggressively and miss the shot and a four or five will be hard fought.
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Kyle:
You need to check out what your Governor mentioned about a certain mindset that exists - when they cancelled the Eagles football and he correctly derided the wussie attitude. My God -- you have not played a representative sample of Jersey courses and have simply hunkered down in your comfortable Phillie environment.
You say The Knoll is must play for its "reputation." You are right -- the reputation is well deserved because of the architecture that is present. More than happy to go toe-to-toe and go over each and every detail about the course if you care to do it.
You mention about the drive -- your premise was under 100 miles and under $100. Then you added the caveat about whether something is worthwhile for the time of the drive.
Kyle, stay on the other side of the Delaware and live in blissful ignorance.
Kyle, you have ODed on the short and fairly same-oh / same-oh type courses. There isn't any real diversity in terms of shotmaking. Your prejudice towards a certain type of course is showing -- look what Doak did with his 31 best courses in CG -- plenty of variety and presentations.
What I did say about Galen Hall and Middletown is not that they don't offer something of value but that because you have failed to play a much fuller range of courses your listing could have been much better -- unfortunately, you see a trip to Jersey akin to Marco Polo traveling to and from the Orient. Like I said take the I-95 connector by Scudder Falls and you can save the $4. ;D
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Kyle:
You need to check out what your Governor mentioned about a certain mindset that exists - when they cancelled the Eagles football and he correctly derided the wussie attitude. My God -- you have not played a representative sample of Jersey courses and have simply hunkered down in your comfortable Phillie environment.
You say The Knoll is must play for its "reputation." You are right -- the reputation is well deserved because of the architecture that is present. More than happy to go toe-to-toe and go over each and every detail about the course if you care to do it.
You mention about the drive -- your premise was under 100 miles and under $100. Then you added the caveat about whether something is worthwhile for the time of the drive.
Kyle, stay on the other side of the Delaware and live in blissful ignorance.
Kyle, you have ODed on the short and fairly same-oh / same-oh type courses. There isn't any real diversity in terms of shotmaking. Your prejudice towards a certain type of course is showing -- look what Doak did with his 31 best courses in CG -- plenty of variety and presentations.
What I did say about Galen Hall and Middletown is not that they don't offer something of value but that because you have failed to play a much fuller range of courses your listing could have been much better -- unfortunately, you see a trip to Jersey akin to Marco Polo traveling to and from the Orient. Like I said take the I-95 connector by Scudder Falls and you can save the $4. ;D
Matt:
Considering I just spent 10 weeks this fall driving from Elkins Park, PA to New Brunswick, NJ daily, I found your comment a little ironic to say the least. ;) I've sat in that Scudders Falls traffic way more than anyone should want to.
I haven't ADDED criteria in response to your opinions, they were there from the very beginning. That's what opportunity cost means. It's been there from the beginning and was the whole premise of this thread.
As for the lack of variety... really?
Morgan Hill
McCullough's
Inniscrone
Reading
Four very different types of golf course in very different settings. 40% of the list.
I'd say that Middletown and Galen Hall share similarities and perhaps Reading and Jeffersonville. But with all respect, my list reflects a range of yardages from under 6000 to just under 7000, a range of par values from 68 to 72 and are all located on very different types of terrain with very different shot requirements. You're also neglecting the internal variety of places like Galen Hall, which features three different eras of architecture.
The fact is, there's only room for 10 on this list and the list is primarily dedicated to value. Therefore, places like Makefield Highlands and Scotland Run are pushed to the cusp and rightfully fall just outside the top ten. Neshanic may have a horse in this race but I haven't seen the third nine there so I can't make a qualified statement, yet. Same goes for any of your suggestions.
What I'm starting to actually question is just what "doing my homework" means in terms of how to qualify a rating. I've played all these golf courses at least ten times. Am I more qualified to speak of them than someone that has played once or twice? Am I less qualified to state their value if I haven't experienced every else? I don't know. But I could counter that someone not spending enough playing time at one place is an equally unqualified opinion.
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I'd probably put wyncote and charleston springs (both north and south, but preference to north) ahead of more than half those courses as well.
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Alex,
Wyncote... Wyncote...
I just don't know. If I'm driving out there, I don't think Wyncote is enough to take me away from Inniscrone.
Remember, this isn't just a rating of architectural quality. It's a value judgment as well.
Is Inniscrone not your cup of tea? (Can certainly understand that, it draws as much criticism as it does praise).
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Alex,
Wyncote... Wyncote...
I just don't know. If I'm driving out there, I don't think Wyncote is enough to take me away from Inniscrone.
Remember, this isn't just a rating of architectural quality. It's a value judgment as well.
Is Inniscrone not your cup of tea? (Can certainly understand that, it draws as much criticism as it does praise).
Inniscrone's actually probably my favorite one on your list.
You have a complicated formula that you never quite stated. Do I have to rank wyncote against Inniscrone because they point in the same geographical direction from philly?
I submit deerfield as well for consideration.
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Alex,
Wyncote... Wyncote...
I just don't know. If I'm driving out there, I don't think Wyncote is enough to take me away from Inniscrone.
Remember, this isn't just a rating of architectural quality. It's a value judgment as well.
Is Inniscrone not your cup of tea? (Can certainly understand that, it draws as much criticism as it does praise).
Inniscrone's actually probably my favorite one on your list.
You have a complicated formula that you never quite stated. Do I have to rank wyncote against Inniscrone because they point in the same geographical direction from philly?
I submit deerfield as well for consideration.
It's more... how does the decision manifest itself? Do you drive past Inniscrone from Philadelphia to play Wyncote? What's the ten round test between them?
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Kyle,
Are you pulling a Cirba/Moriarity/Paul/MacWood on me and refusing to answer my questions?
Mike,
I actually missed it in the shuffle, but no, I've not played either.
Odessa is on my radar, however, as the picture I've seen are appealing. Statistically I'll get to Springfield with Bausch sooner or later. I also need to get to Deerfield and Scotland Run.
I was gonna ask about Deerfield -- Joe's a big fan. As I am too. Deerfield is a really nice track. Please give me a heads up if you venture down here. Thanx, Karl
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Kyle:
If anything Inniscrone is one your best original choices. Has plenty to offer and is more than just one short hole following another.
Let's get back to the debate shall we -- your Jersey listing -- even in your own mind -- is lacking. You should have simply stated a listing of courses 50 miles or closer to Phila and those that are $50 or less. That would cut out the Jersey element that you don't have.
You favor the short type course where greensites are the major emphasis point. You have failed to include courses where driving the ball is important and where longer approach clubs will need to be used. So be it -- for you.
I have provided a range of value oriented courses and those that offer a wider array of terrain styles and hole choices. Of course, you would not know that since your portfolio is tied to a much narrower range and base.
You need to play the likes of the different courses I mentioned -- Hominy Hill is one the better RTJ courses and has had the goods to host both the men's and women's public links nationalevents. Why do I say that? It's important for certain courses to show their strength against superior shotmaking skills and not be worthy simply becauise they test Joe Sixpack types.
Ocean County at Atlantis shows the style and flavor of George Fazio and the holes there are still worthy of note.
Kyle, your homework is complete for the courses YOU HAVE ACTUALLY PLAYED -- not for the full range of other courses that I included that are value orineted, within the 100-mile radius and are quite special for the range of styles and designs they provide.
Yes, I have also played the courses I mentioned no less than two times and in a number of cases more times than that. It's Ok to have an incomplete listing - I simply added a plethora of courses that can easily meet and even surpass what you have played from the limits you have placed upon yourself. Enjoy ...
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Matt:
I think you may be right regarding the 50 mile limit, at least towards New York City. I think you'd agree that many of the courses you're listing are in areas that are more easily accessed from New York City and it's New Jersey suburbs.
That's sort of the point of this exercise - it's meant to be Philadelphia-centric and for anyone in Philadelphia and South Jersey, it's difficult to get to New York City. It's a lot easier for a Philadelphian to drive to Reading or Lancaster than the Oranges, don't you agree?
But I don't agree with your assessment of my list. Are not Inniscrone, MEGL, and Morgan Hill courses that fit the length bill? That's 30% of my list. You criticized it for lacking variety? Did you mean to say they weren't a variety of 7000 yard courses? If you're missing the variety and range of different golf experiences this list offers - I just don't understand how you choose to evaluate golf courses.
You also do understand that if I were to include the private courses in this, your statement would become laughable.
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Kyle:
We live in the Northeast -- depending upon time of day and whatever Mother Nature throws at you - it's possible a simple 10-mile journey can be a real pain to do.
You included the under 100 miles threshold and I simply added the Jersey ones that would fill out your list. You then meekly backpedal and whine about traffic issues and the like.
Last I checked -- you didn't say anything under 100 miles and nothing north of Mercer County, NJ.
Morgan Hill is not a long course and frankly doesn't have the par-4 holes of note -- save for the 6th which is good. The rest are usually plunging downhill. ME is also not a long course by any real definition.
Kyle, go play Hominy Hill -- go play any of the other key Monmouth County courses such as Howell Park or the 36-hole complex at Charleston Springs. Architect's Club is very good once you get to the 5th hole. If you have not played Hominy Hill your portfolio of top tier public courses for under $100 is woefully short.
You also included Cobbs Creek as your "hope" course -- the place has potential but it's still miles away from getting there. I hope that everything can be done there but lets not confuse potential with actual reality shall we. The Knoll West is a superb layout and has been nicely restored / upgraded by the work of George Bahto.
I also included the likes of a range of architects from Roy Case at Sea Oaks, to George Fazio at Ocean County at Atlantis and then with the likes of such other very good courses like Vineyard at Renault. Heck, I can make a case for the Gordon duo who did the likes of Buena Vista.
Kyle, before you throw me under the bus -- you need to play a wider sample before weighing in with a DEFINITIVE listing. And, more importantly, before saying I'm out of touch -- you need to look in the mirror and see it more clearly. Just some things to consider -- I presume your mind is open to that possibility.
Last item -- the topic was about public courses -- if you wish to include the private ones I'm just as ready to discuss.
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Matt:
Final points.
This was never meant to be a definitive listing.
I stated from the get-go this was an opportunity cost rating. If you don't know what opportunity cost means go back to Econ 101. I even explicitly cited a case involving driving from the get-go. There was no backpedaling.
I would be well-served to see more, you are correct. When you hosting?
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Kyle:
When you make a listing you need to realize you will be challenged. You could have -- a long time ago I might add -- have simply said that a few places I have mentioned you have not played and given my range of experiences it's possible -- maybe even more than that -- that such places would be included.
For some reason your car has an inability to sample a broader range of courss that lie east of the Delaware. I simply tried to help your own lack of plays at such courses. Your response is indicative of a desire to think otherwise.
Kyle, my play schedule is open for the summer of 2010 -- happy to assist and show you what I believe you would enjoy playing. Trust me the folks on the other side of the Delaware don't bite.
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Kyle
I like your triple edge of value, 100 miles and crucially, driving by a a loved/quality course to play another. True, this puts an extra random onus on location, but it helps to clarify just what you like and why.
Ciao
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Value doesn't enter into the equation for me. The weekday senior rates are very manageable. I've developed a mini rota for public play-Jeffersonville,Lederach and Heron Glen in NJ(a 45 minute ride) do it for me. I venture over to Glen Mills (another 45 minute ride) a few times a year where the senior rates are $55 before 11am M-W. Sometimes I venture over to Riverwinds in NJ to meet friends from NJ. I will venture to Berks County to play Reading and Berkleigh occasionally. Hershey Links is worth the trip,especially when it's free when you sign up for their birthday club.
Kyle,
Have you played Heron Glen?
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Steve:
Great choice in Heron Glen -- the Dan Schelgel layout gets little fanfare but is more than just good -- it's a shade behind the likes of the heavy hitter taxpayer-owned layouts in the Garden State and given my appreciation of places like Hominy Hill in Colts Neck that is saying something.
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;D :D ;D 8)
Hey Kyle I'm not really into lists but you cut me to the quick saying McCullagh's Emerald Links is better than Twisted Dune. Even though it's price subsidized (lol) and cheaper to play , Twsted continues to get far more rounds ,so I'm not totally biased in this opinion.
I'd change some things at Twisted if given the chance ( eg I don't like the way the 17th hole turned out, but other than having a lot more quirk do you really think the golf course is better at McCullaghs?
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Heron Glen deserves more attention than many other courses. Best thing is that it's near enough to the Pennsy line for Keystone folks to play it without a second mortgage to play.
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I had never heard of Heron Glen which I regret because I automatically give the treeless or mostly treeless courses a chance once I discover them. I consider the best around to be McColloughs and then after that I do not have a preference.
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John, all,
Heron Glen is really worth a visit...would enjoy hearing other's opinions.
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The non-resident green fees at Heron Glen are much more reasonable than Neshanic Valley which is a few minutes east on 202.
Here is Joe Logan's review:
http://www.myphillygolf.com/detail.asp?id=5004&pid=8
There is a good mix of holes here and the course is usually in very good condition.
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John S:
If you think ME is the best around -- for Jersey courses -- then you need to play Heron Glen and I dare say there are a few other courses that can show plenty of worthiness.