Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Simon Holt on December 09, 2010, 10:29:26 AM
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I was thinking about my highlights of the year and it struck me that many of my most enjoyable rounds, both first inspections and revisits, were what people would call the 2nd course, or the wee course.
I feel some people may be missing out on some great GCA, especially when planning trips to the UK, on the second courses. Some are well known- others maybe not so.
My personal favourites from this year.
The New Course, St. Andrews
absence makes the heart grow fonder. Many a round as a student but returned after 5 years and remembered why in places I think it better than the Auld Lady herself! You can also play it off the medal tees now which is great.
Gullane No. 2
Played this for the first time since high school a month ago and absolutely loved it. The back 9 is better than No. 1's in my book- awesome elevation changes and really clever bunker placement. Lots of new tees and some new bunkers have made a big improvement IMO.
The Valley Course, Portrush
Out of my 3 I think this one has the biggest difference in interest from the 'big' course for me but still a cracker and well worth your money.
So- lets be having you! Either side of the Atlantic/ROW but lets hear why you think they deserve our attention!
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You mentioned the Valley, a great choice
Tom Morris course at Rosapenna which is marketed and priced as the second course(although in my opinion the better course at Rosapenna)
I haven't played the new nine
Rolling Oaks at World Woods
Old Course at Ballyliffin (not quite marketed as second course but close)
New course at Ballybunion
The Glen at North Berwick
Portland Course at Troon
Even the second course at RCD had a marvelous stretch through the Dunes-RCD Light (this would be the only one I would call the Wee course)
At Saunton, I preferred the shorter course which had more interest and variety
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This isn't exactly what you had in mind as a "second course," but in the US I'd mention Spyglass in Pebble Beach. I think that Spyglass is a terrific course, and while not ignored, it is downgraded by being next to the Pebble Beach course. I'm sure if it were standing alone, it would be more respected.
I only think of it in the second course sense, because the story is (which I can't verify) that Spyglass was being talked about as a PGA Tournament course, and the PGA said (reportedly), "We're not going to take the second course, when you give your number one course to the USGA."
In terms of difficulty, variety and playability, it is the equal of Pebble Beach--lacking only in beauty (a bit) and prestige.
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Can't Miss:
Blackwolf Run at the Kohler Resort
Winged Foot East
South Course at OFCC
The Cassique and River Courses on Kiawah Island (after TOC)
The Primrose Course at TCC Brookline
Ones to avoid:
The Woodlands Course at Lawsonia
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Simon- this is a topic I think about alot. Value is a big variable in how much I enjoy a course- therefor I always have an eye on the "second" courses at golf destinations. Plus, pace of play is a important to me and these "other" courses tend to be less crowded- a big plus to me. Three that come to mind are: the Irish and Meadow Valley courses in Kohler and Dye's Valley at Sawgrass.
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Nice work guys!
I suppose there will be a few that are technicalities like The Glen (which is a standalone course, worth the visit for the views alone, very cheap and deemed by quite a few as the small course in town) and Spyglass (again, very good course and the first course I played on the Peninsula)
The real second courses are the ones that are often looked over though. The Valley course at Sawgrass is a good call- I had not heard of that I am ashamed to say. My boss is a member at TPC so I will have to butter him up for a round!
What about Jack Rabbit at Champions? I didn't get to play it but heard it was really fun.
I suppose the Winged Foot debate could become the most hotly contested....but its not a contest- I want great second courses and don't care which one is the best!
Kintyre? Portland? Burnside? The Struie up at Dornoch? All second courses at Open Championship venues but we don't hear a huge amount about them. I have not played any of those so would be keen to hear from others.
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Crail Craighead
I prefer Gullane 2 to Gullane 1.
Which course at Gleneagles is the "2nd" course?
The Priestman at Slaley Hall isn't great but it's better than the Hunting.
The worst must be the Bracken at Woodhall Spa.
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I have a lot of time for Saunton West, Burnham & Berrow Channel and Portrush Valley. Burnside and Gullane 3 are two others I enjoy though I am not sure I would suggest skipping a high profile game for these two. I spose its harsh to call Sunny New the second course so I won't. Same goes for Walton New.
Ciao
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The New Course at Sunningdale is very, very good.
Not sure which is really the "2nd course" at the Berkshire, but both are very good.
Agree that the Valley Course at Portrush is very good.
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No shared love for the New at St. Andrews yet? I think the 10th hole is arguably the best par 4 in St. Andrews...randomly probably one with the least bunkering too. I absolutely love the contours from around 100 yards in once it funnels between the gorse on the left on the rough hollows on the right.
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The New course at Walton Heath, the Upper Course at Baltusrol ( I actually prefer it), the Short courses at Pine Valley and The Colorado Club, The Fazio Course at Red Sky Ranch.
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Playing The Old Course backwards
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Lost Farm at Barnbougle Dunes :)
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Bethpage Red
Penn State White
Merion West
Saucon Weyhill
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Mark, totally agree on your Gleneagles call. I LOVE the Queens course.
And David nailed the New at Sunningdale, it really is fantastic.
And the Valley at Portrush another great call.
And the New Course at St. Andrews which if alone would be considered a truly great course but it sadly is in the shadow (understandably).
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I can endorse the New Course...but I think the Eden more fits the topic as the New is highly ranked. I will check out the Eden next June.
I will also second Saucon Valley-Weyhill.
The only other one that I have played that is a clear "secondary" course is Oak Hill West...which is definately fantastic and ranked in its own right.
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No shared love for the New at St. Andrews yet? I think the 10th hole is arguably the best par 4 in St. Andrews...randomly probably one with the least bunkering too. I absolutely love the contours from around 100 yards in once it funnels between the gorse on the left on the rough hollows on the right.
Good call, Simon, but I actually prefer the 6th on the New, which is a slightly shorter par 4 that turns back toward the town after the first 5 march out toward the Eden estuary.
The hole narrows with a gorse-clad hill to the right, and there's a good sized bump out in front to hinder running shots. What I like most about the hole is the skyline of St Andrews above the wall of gorse that backs the green, it's quite dramatic.
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I prefer the North course at Torrey to the South; The South is just a slog, but the North has great green contours and more dogleg holes.
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Pete,
The North at Torrey is more fun and scenic, I agree with you. I do actually like the South as well though. Good call, I forgot about TP North.
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Simon,
When you mention Burnside are you referring to Burnside at Carnoustie? Yes that is a very neat small course. The first course I ever played in my life. Another wee gem is Ashludie at Monifieth, short but great fun and finally for a more solid game there is Panmure just before you reach Carnoustie. Three neat courses all within 5 miles of one another which could be played in one long, languid summer's day for under 140 pounds TOTAL!!
Cheers Colin
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Royal Melbourne East. Despite a little lull in the front nine (6-8), an absolute gem that is likely overlooked by many overseas travellers.
TK
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From what I have seen and heard here, Winged Foot East.
Peninsula North/South hard to know which is number 1 from what I have read. I know the South is terrific.
Moortown, Alwoodley is so close and number 1.
Castle Stuart with Royal Dornoch number 1 ( Stretching the distance a bit )
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I agree with Simon. The 9th and 10th at the New Course are all world golf holes.
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The Yellow nine at Portmarnock. The perfect "emergency nine" after lunch.
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The "South" course at Westchester CC is not as tough as its sister course the "West" but is a great 2nd course.
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The North Course at Olympia Fields is very good. The South Course, after the tweaking by Steve Smyers, is a lot of fun and well worth the time.
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No's 1 and 3 at Pinehurst
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The East Course at Wentworth - always more fun to play than the West
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Simon,
I’d be interested what your thoughts are of Winterfield Golf Course, the other course at Dunbar – does this count as a second Golf Course?
(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j150/johncs/DUNBAR-014a-1.jpg)
(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j150/johncs/WGC-Header.jpg)
I was turned on to it by a golfing pal who was doing the sound recording for a BBC drama (can’t remember the name) about 4 old golfers playing on the course.
A fairly simple Par 68 and 5511 yards long, it is made up of short Par 4’s and long Par 3’s, I enjoyed the setting, the highlight being the 14th, 15th and 16th along the coast line.
Maybe not a “can’t miss” but worth a visit if you have time to spare.
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Congressional Gold is a solid course (and has a couple of holes that may be better than anything on the Blue).
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A lot of good one's have already been mentioned but I interpret the question to be one where one should spend a full day playing at least two courses that may be on offer.
I may have missed these but I dont think they've been mentioned as yet:
Bandon (any mix)
MPCC
Walton Heath Edit: Oops - already mentioned
The National (Moonah or Old)
The Grange (SA)
and of course Pine Valley (Short) 8)
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You mentioned the Valley, a great choice
Tom Morris course at Rosapenna which is marketed and priced as the second course(although in my opinion the better course at Rosapenna)
I haven't played the new nine
At Saunton, I preferred the shorter course which had more interest and variety
Again a big fan of the Valley but we fall out over the OTM course. I enjoyed the front 9 but the first hole across the road is the worst I can recall. Uphill into a field and then a blind shot across a road to a green that can’t be held with a bunker in front of it. The two halfs did not sit well together and I think the new nine must be a big improvement.
I’ve only played the second course at Burnham and it was one of my biggest disspointments. Awful rough, mostly not grass, and playing off the yellows I had to use 5i off the tee on a number of Yellows. Won’t hurry back.
Anyone played the extra 9 at Castlerock or the Bann course at Portstewart?
The upper course at Hainault Forrest is almost as good as the Lower. The Priors is much more fun than the main course at Stapleford Abbots.
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The Blue at The Berkshire (though Pearce might argue the Red is the second course!).
I only walked around it, but the Cliffs course at The Olympic Club looks like as perfect a golfing experience you could want if you only had a couple of hours to spare.
The Struie course at Dornoch is worth seeing for the 1st, 6th, 10th, 11th, 12th and 13th holes alone (and the rest is a lot of fun).
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Don't know if already mentioned ...
Winged Foot / East -- gets little fanfare when most of the attention is on big brother West.
Baltusrol / Upper -- the better of the two -- the Lower gets the hype for having held US Opens and a PGA -- w another coming.
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Also, since you can play both with a decent letter even though they're technically separate, what about Prince's, which abuts RSG?
Two different clubs and this belongs to a different thread. There are lots of links clubs that abut another one.
On that other thread I'd argue to skip the Struie and go see Brora instead.
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It is getting to be the trend it seems for some of the new and acclaimed courses to have a second course option either from the start or in the wings of planning. Look at the Prairie Club. With the current expressed intention of having one become the private national membership course (Dunes-Lehman) and the other the open to public course (Pines-Marsh). Then we hear that BallyNeal might have another in the wings with possibly the same public - private set up. Even Cabot Trail has a potential second course in the idea stage. You have Pumpkin Ridge and nearby Reserve Vineyards with the public-private concept, and switching th private and public designated courses on occasion.
I'd say that while a couple of these noted 'second courses' above aren't even built yet, they seem to be must plays! ;D ;D ;D
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It is getting to be the trend it seems for some of the new and acclaimed courses to have a second course option either from the start or in the wings of planning. Look at the Prairie Club. With the current expressed intention of having one become the private national membership course (Dunes-Lehman) and the other the open to public course (Pines-Marsh). Then we hear that BallyNeal might have another in the wings with possibly the same public - private set up. Even Cabot Trail has a potential second course in the idea stage. You have Pumpkin Ridge and nearby Reserve Vineyards with the public-private concept, and switching th private and public designated courses on occasion.
I'd say that while a couple of these noted 'second courses' above aren't even built yet, they seem to be must plays! ;D ;D ;D
RJ-Lake of Isles at Foxwoods Casino in Connecticut has occasionally flipped their member and public options, the North and South, with some measure of success.
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I am very fortunate to be a part of 3 very good ones. Olympic Lake gets all the respect and deserves it. However the Ocean course is actually slightly harder. I am not sure which course at MPCC is the first and which is the second. Both a great fun golf courses and deserving of 1st course status. The Shore #1 with the Dunes #2 to me. Champions also has the high profile course in Cypress which gets the USGA events . However Jack Rabbit is a strong fun course which is far from a 2nd but more of a 1A. I like Cypress better but often find myself having more fun and certainly get a greater diversity of shot making on Jack.
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In a few years Castle Stuart will have a nice combination of courses.
Anthony
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Tiger- I had heard that about Jack Rabbit. I played Champions in March and my host actually suggested playing Jack Rabbit becase the greens on Cypress were punched but then he went back to the 'you have to play the show piece'. I would like to go back this winter perhaps.
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No shared love for the New at St. Andrews yet? I think the 10th hole is arguably the best par 4 in St. Andrews...randomly probably one with the least bunkering too. I absolutely love the contours from around 100 yards in once it funnels between the gorse on the left on the rough hollows on the right.
Good call, Simon, but I actually prefer the 6th on the New, which is a slightly shorter par 4 that turns back toward the town after the first 5 march out toward the Eden estuary.
The hole narrows with a gorse-clad hill to the right, and there's a good sized bump out in front to hinder running shots. What I like most about the hole is the skyline of St Andrews above the wall of gorse that backs the green, it's quite dramatic.
Bill- thats funny as the 6th is another holes that is way up in my estimations after replaying it. Agree with you about the skyline- this hole has no bunkers at all which again is very unique in St. A especially given that it is one of the longer 4s...perhaps that is why?
I absolutely love the New. Nice gentle start- traditional Scottish links. Then some really strategic holes for 4,6,7. Wild green on 5, good par 3 at 9, awesome hole at 10 and then the whole back 9 is very strong with great variation in holes over land that doesnt have any real elevation change. 13 is a really strong 3 for my money as you can go aerial and use the backboard or run it the whole way.
I think the drop in elevation from the semi blind tee shot on 10 puts it above 6 for me but that is just personal preference. Both great holes.
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Simon,
I’d be interested what your thoughts are of Winterfield Golf Course, the other course at Dunbar – does this count as a second Golf Course?
(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j150/johncs/DUNBAR-014a-1.jpg)
(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j150/johncs/WGC-Header.jpg)
I was turned on to it by a golfing pal who was doing the sound recording for a BBC drama (can’t remember the name) about 4 old golfers playing on the course.
A fairly simple Par 68 and 5511 yards long, it is made up of short Par 4’s and long Par 3’s, I enjoyed the setting, the highlight being the 14th, 15th and 16th along the coast line.
Maybe not a “can’t miss” but worth a visit if you have time to spare.
Hi John,
Thanks for the post on a little known East Lothian links. I played it a couple of months ago in a Winter League match- not my favourite course in the world but as a council run links it is cheap and on the way back to Edinburgh if you have been out to play Dunbar. Not really a second course to Dunbar but more along the lines of what the Glen is to North Berwick West. The Glen is far better though!!!
The second picture is the first hole (green on the extreme right hand side) as you know. For the others- about 220 over a huge valley to the green- for my money the weakest opening hole in East Lothian. Dramatic cliffs but think a poor man's 16th at Cypress and you are being very complimentary indeed. Crazy for a first hole. The day we played (all handicaps below 4) we were hitting drivers into an East wind and people were coming up short. I'm shooting from the hip there John so please pipe up if you think I am going overboard.
The front 9 is very flat and featureless after the 1st. I actually played against the head greenkeeper who is a member and the course record holder (61!!). Lovely guy who does it all himself and is a credit to the game. He has not got much to work with. Lots of very long par 3s which means while the par is in the 60s the difficulty of scoring well is right up there. Very tight layout with nothing to protect you from balls on the next hole- all out and in zig zags for the first 9.
The back is far more interesting due to elevation changes, close proximity to the water and it has some cool green complexes. Again an abundance of par 3s but I agree- holes 12, 13, 14, 15 and 16 is by far the best stretch on the course. 12 is a drivable 4 across the shoulder of a hill with a long, narrow green. It reminds me a little of the 4th green at Spyglass. 13 goes back towards the North East and is a 2 shotter with the green tucked into the side of a hill below 14 tee. 14 is probably the best hole on the course IMO. Par 3 along the water, green site on a peninsula with a large mound leading up to it, sea on 3 sides (bottom left corner of the first pic). 15 is another nice 3 along the water immediately below a cliff with the clubhouse perched on top.
Not a bad little course but well down my East Lothian list I am afraid. Tough neighbourhood! I think Darren Kilfara did a thread on it years before I actually took part on the site. He and I also played against each other in Winter League- he plays for Dunbar and we had no idea who the other guy was. Small world! He also went to St. Andrews University and wrote a cool book that I have since read- 'A Golfers Education'...a fun read.
Thanks for posting that John.
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Simon I loved the New, too.
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42823.0/
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Tony
Great thread- just skimmed through it and it reminded me a how cool the green site is on 11 too. Mr. Stiff? How very dare you sir? Having played well over 100 rounds on the New, 60 on the Jube and in the region of 20 on the Eden I will argue all day that while the other courses have some great features the New is the daddy.
Interesting about the frontage on the 8th and how they lowered/cleared that ridge. The 3rd at Muirfield has that sort of shape to it too but I think it is two separate dunes rather than a cleared ridge- I dont know that though. People often talk of doing a similar thing to the front of 17 at North Berwick. Get yourself up here for you first round as a member! The snow is thawing fast but it has left quite a few new water hazards!
Simon
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Simon,
Thanks for the description. That’s quite a greenkeeping feat looking after an 18-Hole course single handedly - not even any help from the 4 footed greenkeepers!!!.
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Stonewall North Course
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Simon the best time to play Champions is right before or after an event and before or after December 15th to February 15. The Maintenance schedule is driven by them. The water table is high in the winter so while the weather is ok conditions suffer a bit on the damp side.
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Congressional Gold is a solid course (and has a couple of holes that may be better than anything on the Blue).
i've heard from someone else that the Gold is worth playing.....the Blue was VERY tough, with really thick rough...
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OFCC South is far more fun than the North.
Visitors to Rye sadly over look the Jubilee course. The 6th is a good reachable par 5 to a shelf green and the 6th a wonderful high tee par 3 with a new tee tucked in the dunes.
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I prefer Atlanta Athletic Club Riverside to the more famous Highlands course. I think it is a more enjoyable course and, in fact, a better course.
For the Pine Needles/Mid-Pines Resort, I'd make sure to play Mid-Pines. Pine Needles might be a better courses, but Mid Pines is a lot of fun and shouldn't be missed.
If you are playing Sand Hills, don't miss Dismal River. Completely different type of course in similar enviroment/landscape.
If you are playing Palmetto, check out Aiken.
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Pinehurst #1 is just a throwback of a treat to play, especially after one gets manhandled on #2.
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Well, I think Bandon Crossings is a good second course but I can't give up playing any of the four at the resort to play it.
Is the Home Course, WA, a "second course" to Chambers Bay? Should we play it or just let it be?
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The Yellow nine at Portmarnock. The perfect "emergency nine" after lunch.
I'd quite clearly agree with this... a couple of the best holes on the property: The 2nd (which was part of the Old Course until 1971) and the fantastic 6th.... Also has the one hole that is inarguably amongst the biggest dunes on the site -The short par-4 4th...
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8) ;D ;D ;D 8)
I'll second the East at Winged Foot it is quite good.....there is a little course at Merion that is way cool with some unique architecture
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The Valliere Course at Morfontaine.