Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Ally Mcintosh on December 03, 2010, 04:58:54 AM
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We talk a lot about Biarritz, Redan and Eden but less about the horeshoe ridge found in MacDonald's Short....
Where did it come from? I'm sure this has been discussed plenty and I just have missed (or ignored) the threads
This old photo of Colt's 4th green from Sunningdale (pre-world War 1, angle from the right) certainly reminds me of it... Courtesy of Paul Turner in another thread:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/paulturner/Sunn_4th-1.jpg?t=1291331268)
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I think his ideal hole was the 5th at Brancaster, though I don't believe it is the fifth anymore.
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I thought TOC
Anthony
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Talking about the Short at Old Mac, Ran says "Macdonald was quite taken by the one shot fourth hole at Royal West Norfolk and when it came time to build National Golf Links of America, he added the twist of a wild green to that of a forced carry."
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So does that mean the horeshoe ridge was a MacDonald original?... Is it possible he saw it somewhere else on his travels of Britain?...
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I think his ideal hole was the 5th at Brancaster, though I don't believe it is the fifth anymore.
He lists it as such in Scotland's Gift @ 130 yards.
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Ally,
Macdonald actrually specified a horseshoe contour in a drawing. If I remember correctly he specified 8 yards wide by 11 deep. On an older post of the Old White you will find a picture of Raynors version from the 20's. That picture seems very close to what was specified.
Lester
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Ally: at first Macdonald referred to The short hole at Brancaster as his inspiration. Later he recanted a bit and suggested that 8-TOC served as inspiration. (I have that in some of his writings someplace in the files but I’m not going to look up the articles - the Brancaster reference is in Scotland’s Gift
I would suggest it was some combination of both
I have never been able to determine where the horseshoe feature actually came from - he used it on Shorts and on some Biarritz holes.
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George,
Can you give me an example of where Mac used the horseshoe on a Biarritz? I have never heard that before. I wouldn't put it past him though. Interesting.
Lester
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Lester, there is still a dramatic version at The Knoll (not much top dressing over the years for various reasons)
also I posted the Banks green blueprint of a Biarritz whcih showed it
Banks' name is on the lower left - the other notes are mine
(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g85/ggb313/biarritzgreenlabeled.jpg)
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George,
Very cool. Thanks.
Lester
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So does that mean the horeshoe ridge was a MacDonald original?... Is it possible he saw it somewhere else on his travels of Britain?...
Ally,
I can see inspiration for a horseshoe ridge in the photo you posted at the start of this thread.
TK
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Lester, there is still a dramatic version at The Knoll (not much top dressing over the years for various reasons)
also I posted the Banks green blueprint of a Biarritz whcih showed it
Banks' name is on the lower left - the other notes are mine
(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g85/ggb313/biarritzgreenlabeled.jpg)
George, I enjoyed my recent visits to Knoll West and Forsgate so much that I crudely sketched the green contours of every hole. This blueuprint is virtually identifical to the current 17th at Forsgate, down to the thumbprint in the back section, the deflection spines (which at Forsgate are shaped like a truncated "v") at the front section and the pinched rounded front of the green. A dead ringer.
Thanks for posting.
Mike
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I have to get back to Forsgate - it's been quite a while since there
now, Ally, that green - the 4th-Sunningdale is stunning!!! to say the least. (Perhaps Tom's guys built it :P)
How can we determine when that green was built? If it was in existence before Macdonald built National we may have the answer to the horseshoe's origin.
I don't have a Sunningdale history but some of us should - any ideas????????
Another thought:
CBM builds National 1907-1910 but at National (present) there is no horseshoe feature on the Short, just the "doughnut." There is a problem though, because the present greens at National are second and in some cases third iterations of his original green designs.
So, on to the second course after National, Piping Rock, looking for a horseshoe:
I do not remember seeing any trace of a horseshoe on the Short or Biarritz there. Tom Doak redid the course for Pete Dye - perhaps he can remember what was there before the redo began. Tom ???????
So then the next course was Sleepy Hollow and I saw no trace of a horseshoe feature on the Biarritz but I'm not sure what is there is the original putting surface.
However on the Short hole, now the 16th, the remains of a horseshoe feature is very visible.
What I'm thinking is that perhaps Charlie may not have seen or used the feature until after NGLA was built
Any thoughts?
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Ally,
Here is a link to another thread discussing the subject. The 5th at Brancaster which currently plays as its 4th often gets the credit...
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,41930.0/
However I dont remember there being a horseshoe shape in the green there on a recent visit to Brancaster?
Your (Paul's) picture of Sunningdale is an interesting one. Sunningdale opened in 1901 if I remember correctly, so before NGLA was conceived? I wonder if anyone knows if the feature in the picture is a Willie Park Junior original or something Colt added?
Cheers,
James
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George, there is a very distinctive horseshoe on the 9th green, "Short," at Mountain Lake.
When your tee shot with a short iron is in the wrong part of the green, it is very quickly four-puttable. Don't ask how I know.
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"George, there is a very distinctive horseshoe on the 9th green, "Short," at Mountain Lake."
Bill I think Silva did those greens over but the feature is obviously "proper"
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Regarding Sunningdale, didn't Simpson make substantial changes in the 1930's ?
Niall
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If you look at the blueprint for the Westhampton Biarritz posted as Reply #9, Tamarack has a very similar horseshoe ridge in the center back of the #12 Biarritz. We also have the 2 front spines, found just past the deep swale. The spine on the left is particularly nasty, a pin placement to the left is almost impossible to 2-putt, as coming over the spine will push most putts onto the fringe or beyond on the left. And of course, not hitting it hard enough, leaves you short of the spine (as it is uphill to get over it) and you still are going to putt off the green to the left on your second attempt!
The pin is most often white in the center of that horseshoe ridge, but occassionally, they put a blue center pin behind the ridge, which again is pretty tough to putt to, though not quite as ruthless as the left front placement.
The front of our Biarritz does not have spines, though there are some unique and interesting breaks, as the entire green is overall uphill from front to back, so putting along the ridge on the front half of the green one will see their putt actually break away from the swale, back towards the front of the green.
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Barry - I guess that means that over the years that green surface has never been altered for it is near impossible to recreate those features until recently, because the lack of correct physical examples, and the lack of knowledge about these features, until recently (kudos to golfclubatlas).
I'll have to get over there.
Barry, how long have you been a member?
also, over the past 20 years who has done work there and (for me) more importantly, have the greens been rebuilt?
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George,
Silva did the restoration work. Here's some pictures from '08. More trees have been cleared since these were taken. I believe the biarritz green is original. Hopefully Barry will respond...
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35379.0/
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George, in response to #19 --
Brian Silva has been instrumental in working with the course to make a few adjustments which include lengthening a few holes and adding some fairway bunkering. The length was felt necessary due to improvements in equipment technology. The bunkering makes several holes more interesting.
From 2006-2008, we had a green restoration program, which did not rebuild any of the greens, but was designed to restore them to the original size/shape according to the original plans. Essentially, many of the raised greens originally were cut to the edges of the plateaus. Over time, particularly through the 1960s and 1970s (I am told), the rough crept inward on many of the greens due to improper maintenance and failing to cut the greens all the way to the edges. So over the 3 year period, they gradually expanded the outer edges of the greens back to the original designs. This had the effect of bringing many of the ridges and spines that Banks had placed on the greens back into play, as numerous pin placements came back into play. None of the greens were dug up and replaced, just a hefty program of aeration, sand and cutting to the proper length over that 3 year period. The past 2 years, since this was completed, have been phenomenal, many say our greens are the healthiest and best in the area. This summer was rough due to the heat and our greenskeeper left the greens longer than normal throughout July and August, but the sacrifice was well worth it, because the month of September saw our greens in the best shape of the season, for our club championship over Labor Day weekend and the rest of September.
The only other major item we've undertaken was a pretty hefty tree removal program. The goal of this was to improve the amount of sun and oxygen on the turf, primarily around tees and greens. I think we've had maybe 150-180 trees removed over the past 2 winters. Interestingly enough, while many members opposed the program, the course actually more closely resembles pictures of the course from the 1930s, when there were indeed substantially fewer trees on the property. And the turf conditions throughout the course are noticeably improved -- tees, greens, and even the rough which can now be grown to much deeper length in many areas which creates a greater penalty to errant shots. Missing the fairway on some of our longer holes is now much more of a penalty than when I first joined about 10 years ago.
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Are we saying that Sleepy Hollow had the first horseshoe green feature ever produced by either Macdonald/Raynor/Banks? Certainly it would be cool to recreate that feature, I hope it will be part of George and Gil's suggestions to the club.
Last week we improved the first reverse redan produced by any of the trio on the 7th hole.
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Thanks for all the responses...
George, James, Tyler et al... When Paul posted that Sunningdale photo in another thread, he stated it was a pre-WW1 Colt redo of the Park Jnr green.... So we might need his input for an exact date... Then the experts can determine if MacDonald might have actually seen it...
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Piping Rock's 17th (its Short) had a horseshoe or depression in the middle of it.
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Are we saying that Sleepy Hollow had the first horseshoe green feature ever produced by either Macdonald/Raynor/Banks? Certainly it would be cool to recreate that feature, I hope it will be part of George and Gil's suggestions to the club.
Last week we improved the first reverse redan produced by any of the trio on the 7th hole.
Corey,
The "horseshoe" feature may have been a compromise or softened version of the "donut" on the 6th at NGLA.
The "donut" with its pronounced ridge may have been too extreme for subsequent clientele, with the "horseshoe" being a reasonable compromise.
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Pat, I agree
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George Bahto,
It, the "horseshoe" certainly became a popular feature that had an enormous impact on play for very little in the way of construction and maintainance costs.
I like what the "horseshoe" does to the green, the approach, recovery and putting.
It inserts great variety.