Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Sean_A on November 17, 2010, 03:50:19 PM
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One stolen from another site, but of your favourite courses, where would you be happy to pay double the normal high season rate to play (no midnight deals or playing in snow)? The course is that good or perhps that under-priced.
Ciao
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Lawsonia Links is the first that comes to mind for me. I could double what I paid to play and it would still be under $100 which I would consider a great deal for the product.
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I'd tell you but I know the owner checks in here and I wouldn't want to give him any ideas. ;)
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Let's not give anybody any bad ideas! :):) If somebody sees that their course is worth the price, they might raise it!
That being said, Lawsonia is a good choice.
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Rustic Canyon or CommonGround. Both worth a premium... especially compared to others in their neighborhoods.
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I'll take the RTJ trail course at Grand National, the Lake, for $45
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Lawsonia and Carne are excellent selections. Just don't tell them!
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I'm thinking of which courses would play again –at some point- if they were double the price, given that I will normally treat myself to a round on the most interesting course in the area I'm visiting. Pebble being the exception - a price too far.
Of course at double the price, some of these would get more play than others.
Addington
Hainault Forrest
Stockley Park
Woking
RSG
Burnham
Pennard
Cardigan
Aberdovey
Wallasey
Lahinch
Co Sligo ( I think – can’t find their rates)
Rossapenna Sandy Hills
Portsalon
Portrush Valley
Prestwick
Brora
Dornoch
TOC
The Eden
Elie
How about this for VFM?
http://www.countysligogolfclub.ie/getdoc/dde99eb3-2b8b-40b1-b0ab-d0bb861cde79/Atlantic-Coast-Golf-Challenge-2011.aspx
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Lawsonia Links is the first that comes to mind for me. I could double what I paid to play and it would still be under $100 which I would consider a great deal for the product.
+1
Exactly...
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Tony,
You'd pay 280 quid to play RSG? The nursery business must have picked up! ;D
Silloth, Brora, The Addington, Woking and North Berwick all get my vote. Royal Dornoch is borderline.
I'm not sure what the visitor rate is at Golspie, but the 10 quid we paid as guests might make it the best value golf I have ever played (notwithstanding free rounds, of course!).
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Rustic Canyon for sure, Lawsonia, and Tony's list I totally agree with. I would probably throw in Papago Park as well.
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I would rather play Erin Hills one more time than Lawsonia thrice. I would however gladly pay double to play and stay at Sand Hills again.
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File this suggestion under the heading of courses that are under-priced (as opposed to being that good), Gibson Bay in Richmond, KY. This Hurdzan course's weekday green fee is $14. Their summer afternoon rate is $9. They are currently advertising fall specials if you book online. I guess they'll pay you to come out and play ;)...
While not great, the course is interesting and has some fun holes. It is built on a somewhat hilly site but there are very few trees and it is a reasonable walk. If you're ever in the Lexington area, you should check it out.
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Tony,
You'd pay 280 quid to play RSG?
Yes I would, not often but I think it's up there offering as fine a day on the links as can be had.
For me Sean's question needs qualifying into groups like
Once more Wallasey
Once a decade (RSG at that price)
Once a year The Eden
More often. (if I could only get there). Pennard.
However there are other places I'd rather be a member of..
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Sean - First, I wouldn't be "happy" to pay double at any of these courses. The only UK course I have seen mentioned so far to which I could almost agree is Brora... because it is so unique.
There are only two courses in my area of the world that would get my hard earned money at twice the price:
Arrowhead Point, a Georgia State Parks course on Lake Richard B Russell. $44 on weekdays.
http://www.arrowheadpointegc.com/golf/proto/arrowheadpointegc/
Mike Young's Longshadow. Currently $29 during the week!
http://www.longshadowgolf.com/
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A couple of folks have mentioned Rustic Canyon. I usually play on the weekends where it is $63 per round (walking). While I would probably still play there if they doubled it, I certainly wouldn't be happy about it and wouldn't play there exclusively.
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Lawsonia Links is the first that comes to mind for me. I could double what I paid to play and it would still be under $100 which I would consider a great deal for the product.
Kyle:
Re. Sean's original post:
where would you be happy to pay double the normal high season rate to play (no midnight deals or playing in snow)?
Lawsonia's high-season rate walking, Fri-Sun, is $90; Mon-Thurs it's $55 walking. Not that it doesn't meet Sean's criteria, but that's a $180 round three days of the week in season.
Mine is the under-the-radar Langford in Wisconsin -- Spring Valley CC, formerly Our Country Club, that has an all-day weekend rate in the summer of $21.50.
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I am with Dan, I would not be happy paying $126 to play Rustic Canyon. Realistically, I would probably not visit it again at above $100.
I can't really think of a single course I would be happy paying twice the high season rate. There are many I would still pay to play, but not happily.
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Its an interesting exercise which I think reveals something about our ideas of value. Like Tony, there are some courses I could see myself playing once every few years or so as a treat; perhaps Woking and a small handful of other courses, but in general I would be looking to play these high flyers at a winter rate. I only looked at favourite courses and at the weekday high season price. I was surprised to come up with so many as I thought there would only be a few.
St Enodoc at ~£130 - cheepers!
Kington - no brainer at ~£44
Cavendish - I would want to see it at least a few more times to see how good it really is (~£60)
Tenby - I need to see it at least once more and confirm (or not) my long held beliefs
Church Stretton - no brainer at twice the price (£40)
Lakewood Shores Gailes - for sure
Lederach (I'm convinced that this course is a test case between those who like properly strategic hazards and those who just talk about it)
Burnham & Berrow Channel - can still get a links fix for ~£36 for the day
There are other courses I would certainly pay double for, but that would be make due courses rather than what I really want to play.
I would still want to play Lawsonia for $110, not sure about $180 though. I would give Rustic Canyon a go as well. Wild Horse would be another I would try. There must be others that I would like to play and that wouldn't price themselves too badly, but I'm drawing a bank.
Ciao
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Shadow Creek is worth every penny of $1,200 a round!!! :P
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Shivas - you wouldn't even play Rustic for $63? I thought you liked the course. Or maybe I am missing something...
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Wild Horse for $35.50 X2 walking. I'm in.
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I'd pay double to play TOC.
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I would rather play Erin Hills one more time than Lawsonia thrice. I would however gladly pay double to play and stay at Sand Hills again.
Gotta go with JakaB on this one, would gladly pay double to play Sand Hills again. Or Cypress Point for that matter.
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Sean,
Thanks for some great ideas. I didn't know several of those courses and now bneed to check them out. Thanks!!
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Dan, how are you? Long time, no see....
I was referring to Spring Valley at $21.50...and I'll stick with the Brat Stop...if you haven't ever been there, it's well worth 2X Spring Valley...
Maybe the most dubious statement posted yet this year on GCA, but, the night is young. ;D
Look, the Brat Stop is great schtick, and the brats are good, but you get better at State Street Brats in Madison, and -- better even still -- you're on State Street in Madison, :D not some gussied-up truck-stop just off the interstate.
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How about the summer internet rate of 50 EURO for Sandy Hills in Rosapenna. Including weekends.
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Silloth, Goswick, Kington
Tony, would you pay £160 to play Elie?
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i opine that if your answer to this exercise is "yes" for any golf course, then you live a comfortable-enough existence to throw away money. it seems that the question is not "is this course under-priced?" instead, the request is "would you throw away $xxx to play golf on a course that you really love?" or "would you abandon said course if the rates were doubled?"
what also needs to be explored, as some have mentioned, is frequency. given the doubling of freight, how much less frequently would you play the course?
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Silloth, Goswick, Kington
Tony, would you pay £160 to play Elie?
Yes.
Pennard, Brora and Elie seem to me to share a common fun factor. Elie is much better conditioned, more conveniently located and I can't see how "soul golf" has to be cheap. I've yet to play Kingsbarns and I will pay £150, likely once. I would be sad to think I will never play Elie again and to me it's definitely worth £160, not everyday but, more than once.
The corollary of this is how the clubs price themselves. I am sure that with smart marketing TOC and Prestwick could halve their visitor no’s and more than double their income. We all need to be thankful that the golf culture in Scotland makes this unacceptable to them. Currently there are higher green fees to play e.g. Kingsbarns, Castle Stuart, Doonbeg (rack rate), K Club, Waterville and I know where I think the value lies.
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i opine that if your answer to this exercise is "yes" for any golf course, then you live a comfortable-enough existence to throw away money. it seems that the question is not "is this course under-priced?" instead, the request is "would you throw away $xxx to play golf on a course that you really love?" or "would you abandon said course if the rates were doubled?"
Ronald I've already said I have a price limit - but it’s been a tough year financially and another year I would have played Pebble, once. It's all about the market and another way of looking at it is we are being asked which courses are pricing themselves below their market rate – in our opinion. When I consider VFM I think about the alternative uses for my leisure money. Today if I want to see some semi retired ex cokehead trot out their greatest hits, or to eat in an upmarket 'competent' restaurant I'm looking at it costing me £50 an hour(in London they enforce the pace of eating!). At that rate £175 for a green fee for a really top class experience is as the saying goes "Cheap at twice the price."
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I woke this morning realizing I had made a hypocritical statement of which I have called out others in the past. In the case of Erin Hills I didn't pay anything for my round while I did pay full fare at Lawsonia. This would disqualify me from my past statement concerning value. My apologies.
One other concern regarding private courses is that the implied fee of playing whenever we want with whomever we choose should be considered. When I say I would pay twice the amount to play and stay at Sand Hills I am confident that most members already pay more than that amount per round as it is.
The infatuation with cost per round on this site is disturbing considering how unqualified most if not all who participate are and will continue to be or they will soon not be playing at all.
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John...
Given you price per round at Erin Hills ($0), I'd pay triple to play that bad boy!!! :)
And also, this price per round stuff seems goofy to me. I think that doing a price per round analysis of Sand Hills vs. a local course, for me say Longshadow, is plain and simply absurd. Longshadow is a really good course, heck it is borderline great. And for $29 it might be the steal of the century. But it doesn't compare to Sand Hills. Sand Hills is epic and outer worldly in terms of the golf course and the attitude of the staff of the club, including Dick Youngscap. I can only make assumptions on this part of it, but I feel confident that part of the fee you pay regarding being a member of Sand Hills (and courses like that) goes far beyond the price per round. It gets into simply being part of something special, being able to play it whenever you want, entertaining friends and guests at one of the worlds truly elite courses. It isn't just simply playing a round of normal golf.
Ron...
C'mon. People who are opining on this thread have money they want to throw away? Get real! No one is going to go to Longshadow and insist on giving the club $60 to play a round today when the fee is $29. This thread is more akin to what I do day in and day out. I look for stocks that I think are WORTH $60 and try to buy them for $29. That is the spirit of this thread. Finding value and sharing the discovery with others so they can enjoy it as well. I love you man, but c'mon!
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Rustic Canyon or CommonGround. Both worth a premium... especially compared to others in their neighborhoods.
I played CommonGround withing the last two weeks. I thoroughly enjoyed it and really need to play it a couple of more times. I would not pay twice the $51 price when I could play Bandon in the winter. I have played Rustic Canyon once and did not have the exciting response many here have had. Don't misinterpret, it was a very good golf course but one of those I really need to play more than once before setting an opinion.
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Wild Horse for $35.50 X2 walking. I'm in.
Absolutely agree with this one!!!
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Arrowtown in New Zealand is a steal at $30.
There are plenty of courses here that are a bagain and of a reasonable/good quality.
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"The infatuation with cost per round on this site is disturbing considering how unqualified most if not all who participate are and will continue to be or they will soon not be playing at all."
John, I need a little elaboration, please.
a...unqualified to do what?
b...not be playing what? golf? why not?
Thank you, kind sir.
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Mac Plumart, I think I like your line of thought best. And, I have to come to the conclusion of no wonder our economic environment is so completely out of whack when people are making hypothetical propositions to even consider a discussion of contemplating what they'd pay twice the current market rate. Isn't this why we have bubbles in various sectors of the economy.
Who do we think we are as a bunch of golfers who just happen to have a fancy or taste for our version of good architecture (an elusive and intangible subject for sure) to be contemplating what we would volunteer to pay double for? That is nuts! I may have not been the greatest labor contract negotiator in my time, but I certainly recognized the concept of bargaining against one's self. We are consumers. We buy things presumably within a market and how dumb is it for some fringe group tospeculate to arbitrarily and voluntarily drive up prices based on some aesthetic and subjective notion of what we would pay double the already established market for as golf course architecture.
And, to say for instance, that one would pay double to play a place like Lawsonia is doubly ignorant, because one ought to at least consider that what you are paying already makes a profit. Profit is hunky dory. But, do you think that Lawsonia would have held the line at the prices they did if they couldn't run at a profit. Same for Wild Horse and all the other so-called 'value' courses that people are somehow thinking they can bid up due to their own desire to demonstrate they have GCA accumen to define what they "think" is undervalued, and others just cherish because it is one of life's few good bargains.
I say, which courses of great cost now, would you maybe consider paying at half the price. I'll tell you what. In this cat's world, it sure ain't Pebble Beach, Shadow Creek, That course in Oz, or any course for that matter that would appear to be dozens of times more than what it costs to offer said course based on cost to operate it.
Private clubs cost of initiation and dues addresses a different notion in my mind. If you can afford the freight at a private club, have at it. You buy into a private club for many other reasons than price. But, I think most people well off enough and sharp enough to have arrived at the stage of joining a private club at whatever price that seems much more than price per round, are still not going to entertain the silly notion of if they love ithe GCA so much they'd pay twice the price!!!
This bubble topic just popped in my head! :o ::) :-\
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Same for Wild Horse and all the other so-called 'value' courses that people are somehow thinking they can bid up due to their own desire to demonstrate they have GCA accumen to define what they "think" is undervalued, and others just cherish because it is one of life's few good bargains.
Criminy Dick, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Question asked was simple, what course would you pay 2X to play? For me, Wild Horse fit that bill nicely. I didn't compute the per round margins, annual maintenance costs corrected for with the % GDP spent on healthcare, or anything like that. I thought to myself "While cruising down I80, would I drive by Gothenburg if they raised the price to $70 for a round?" The answer was no.
Brad
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I think we ought to think carefully about the implications of this notion of what you'd pay twice the current amount for golf or even your house, when the local market has it priced about right.
I understand you and others are trying to say that you may find a course so good and irresistable that you'd pay 2X the going rate more as a statement that you support the high quality of a particular course.
But, to me it is more of a reality thing and indicative of why we are in such a crap pot in this country. Places like Wild Horse don't get by and wouldn't make it if they priced themselves based on some GCA afficianado saying they'd pay $70-90 for the rare treat as they drove through. They get by on the pricing to the local community. People in Madison or here in Green Bay don't work to buy homes and go by what those overpaying and exploited bubble busted folk paid for their homes in San Diego, Chicago burbs, etc. Even though those folk can drive through and see a nicer home than they could get in their area for ~half the price. Then when they do come to the naturally lower market and bring their inflated tastes and sensibilities and bid things up based on warped ideas of what things are worth in their world, the whole scene suffers from inflated notions of value.
I think there are different types of good golf courses with good or desirable architecture or just just popular due to high marketting hype to the public. Some are hype and overpriced bubble busters, overly conceived, and overly gouging people that want to play more-not pay more. And there are those that are priced fairly to their local market where the majority of their customers reside and use the facilities. I don't think the locals want notions of what some afficianado for GCA would be willing to pay as a novelty one-off or rare usage, effect their everyday costs.
Someone recently told me that they were at Wild Horse and totally like the course but were not warmly greeted by locals. I think I know why.
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Dick, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. What drives prices up is folks lining up to spend money, not a hypothetical speculation as to the quality or love of a course. The point behind this was threefold, to reveal that money does matter to people when choosing a place to play - perhaps just as much as quality, to prompt people (ironically considering your posts) to think in terms of value and finally to hopefully discover some of the truly great deals out there today.
Ciao
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"The infatuation with cost per round on this site is disturbing considering how unqualified most if not all who participate are and will continue to be or they will soon not be playing at all."
John, I need a little elaboration, please.
a...unqualified to do what?
b...not be playing what? golf? why not?
Thank you, kind sir.
Buff,
a. This is really quite simple as it relates to the people on this site. Most if not all of us have been the guests at the great private clubs in the country. I personally rarely pay when a guest at a private club and when I do it will cost me less to play than the member who has hosted me. This makes me unqualified to comment on the cost per round of that club. I do not believe it is a stretch to say my qualifications when it comes to cost translates across the board to other members of this site.
Now if you want to discuss cost per round of public courses you might as well be painting cave walls.
b. When the members of this site are relegated to only playing or discussing courses that are public or where they are members there will be little left to discuss which in turn will leave less motivation to play.
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Jeepers JakaB - you are as bad as Dick. What the hell does the member's cost of a private club have to do with anything? If you don't want to answer the question - fine, but don't go on about how we are all ingrates - its getting old.
Ciao
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Jeepers JakaB - you are as bad as Dick. What the hell does the member's cost of a private club have to do with anything? If you don't want to answer the question - fine, but don't go on about how we are all ingrates - its getting old.
Ciao
Sean,
My point is that I wish people would shut the hell up about what it cost to play golf. Even you are still bitching about the cost of Pinehurst #2.
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Jeepers JakaB - you are as bad as Dick. What the hell does the member's cost of a private club have to do with anything? If you don't want to answer the question - fine, but don't go on about how we are all ingrates - its getting old.
Ciao
Sean,
My point is that I wish people would shut the hell up about what it cost to play golf. Even you are still bitching about the cost of Pinehurst #2.
JakaB
"A thing is worth what it can do for you, not what you choose to pay for it." J Ruskin
The wild thing is most of us can blame ourselves for the miles above inflation cost of golf because we choose to ignore Ruskin's advice. Even so, its wonderful to scold oneself in public (isn't that we are really doing when bitching about prices?).
Ciao
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JakaB
"A thing is worth what it can do for you, not what you choose to pay for it." J Ruskin
The wild thing is most of us can blame ourselves for the miles above inflation cost of golf because we choose to ignore Ruskin's advice. Even so, its wonderful to scold oneself in public (isn't that we are really doing when bitching about prices?).
Ciao
Sean,
If that were true why are most courses in financial trouble? My theory lies more in the Bible quote "Let those who have not been comped cast the first shekel."
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JakaB
"A thing is worth what it can do for you, not what you choose to pay for it." J Ruskin
The wild thing is most of us can blame ourselves for the miles above inflation cost of golf because we choose to ignore Ruskin's advice. Even so, its wonderful to scold oneself in public (isn't that we are really doing when bitching about prices?).
Ciao
Sean,
If that were true why are most courses in financial trouble? My theory lies more in the Bible quote "Let those who have not been comped cast the first shekel."
JakaB
Courses are in trouble because more folks than previously are acting on Ruskin's advice, but we still have a long way to go to redress the imbalance.
Ciao
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Shivas:
Thanks for mentioning Forest Preserve National -- I played it years ago when Digest had just rated it among the best public courses in the USA. I could see the bones of the place very well when playing there -- really enjoyed the closer. Have they done anything to the place since then -- my only round there was in '88 when in town for the Sr Open at Medinah.
Sean:
Interesting thread -- be curious to see the posts if you took the reverse situation -- places one would play if the fees were reduced in half. ;D