Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Jud_T on November 16, 2010, 08:07:46 PM
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1. Pac Dunes
2. Old Mac
3. Pebble
4. Whistling Straights
5. Pinehurst #2
6. Bandon Dunes
7. Shadow Creek
8. Spyglass
9. Sawgrass
10. Kiawah Ocean
11. Bandon Trails
12. Beau Rivage-Fallen Oak
13. Harbour Town
14. Blackwolf River
15. Homestead-Cascade
16. Sea Island-Seaside
17. Pine Needles
18. Kapalua-Plantation
19. We-Ko-Pa-Saguaro
20. Cougar Canyon
21. Caledonia
22. Princeville-Prince
23. Primland-Highland
24. May River
25. Prarie Club (Dunes)
other Highlights:
27. Barona Creek
28. French Lick-Dye
30. Dunes Golf&Beach
34. Atlantic City C.C.
37. Greenbriar-Old White
39. Linville
44. Dove Mnt.
50. Crosswater
51. Reynolds Plantation-Great Waters
54. French Lick-Ross
56. Tobacco Road
59. Talking Stick-North
63. Mid Pines
65. Doral
68. Spanish Bay
71. Wynn Las Vegas
78. Treetops-Signiture
80. Kiva Dunes
82. Barton Creek-Fazio
83. Pelican Hill-Ocean
85. Blackwolf-Meadow
88. Couer D'alene
90. Southern Dunes
94. Bay Harbor-Links/Quarry
98. The Glen Club
Talk amongst yourselves....
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I don't really care that much about ratings, but it looks like TOC, Cascades, and Kapalua are low and Fallen Oak is high.
I also know nothing of Cougar Canyon, except it sounds like a place that 20 year old boys would find fascinating.
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Off of a brief glance, it's damn hard to argue with #1 and I love that Old Mac is #2.
I think Kiawah is low as well.
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I understand that with lists such as these, the difference between #28 and #54 is negligible. That said, for those of you that have played both of the French Lick courses, which do you prefer? I've not played either, but the photos of the Ross appeal to me quite a bit more. Joe Bausch's photo tour of the Ross course was one of the best pictorials I've viewed on this site. I'm curious to hear how some of you have received the Dye course...
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Glad to see Spyglass up there. Played it last week for the first time in 18 months- was once again reminded how impressive it is. It's fairly walkable, as well- green to tee distances are reasonalbe, obviously you have some hills to navigate.
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The Dye Course is a Dye course in a unique top-of-the-world setting. It's spectacular, intimidating, and (on the day I played it this September) in exquisite condition. But I can't fairly judge it yet. We had sustained winds of 30+ mph with gusts to 50 mph. It was simply brutal. Hard to evaluate a course when you're just trying to remain upright on drives. The day before with maybe 20 mph winds, we played the Ross Course, which for me was the bigger surprise. I was expecting Dye to impress. But the Ross far exceeded my expectations. A super-dry August had left it in less than perfect condition, with its famous greens bearing long grass to keep them healthy. Nevertheless the course is a classic layout on mostly-open, rolling, hilly terrain with a good mix of holes, beautifully restored large bunkers, steeply sloped putting surfaces, and great views. Eager to play both courses again next year.
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I find these interesting due to the GCA connection...
Pacific Dunes...Tom Doak
Old MacDonald...Tom Doak and Jim Urbina
Atlantic City CC...Tom Doak
Greenbriar (Old White)...Lester George
Wilderness at Fortune Bay...Jeff Brauer
Longbow Golf Club...John Ken Kavanaugh
If I missed any, please point them out.
Cool stuff!! Congrats!!
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Matthew,
I prefer the Ross Course at French Lick to the Dye Course, by a rather large margin, despite generally being more of a fan of Dye. The Ross Course has a lot of interesting holes and features and good topography--they used to call it the "Hill" course as opposed to the Valley Links by the resort which was originally done by Tom Bendelow. That one is now only nine holes. It has long par threes and a lot of medium length par fours, which does hurt variety a bit, but the greens are varied and interesting. Personally, I think the course is every bit as good as some of his private gems in the midwest including Inverness and Scioto, with less history. It did host the PGA, I believe in the 1920's.
The Dye Course is in a spectacular setting, but for the life of me I can't figure out why Dye built these ribbons of fairway that are exceedingly narrow. I think I might have hit one of them in 27 holes played. Quite a few of my drives were very playable from off the fairways so its not entirely a critique of playability, but I didn't see much strategy in 20-25 yard wide fairways other than hit and hope. The overload of bunkers in spots to me also took away from the beautiful natural scenery--it made it look very busy. I think others have made that criticism of Whistling Straits although I found this course to be more jarring. Given ten more rounds with price not factored, I'd play 8 or 9 at the Ross.
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The first observation is that Mike Keiser has four of the top 11 courses. Not surprising, given the quality of courses there, but that is quite impressive. I also found it interesting that only one Pinehurst course is listed (although Jud may have omitted it), I would have thought at least one other would make the top 100. I was also quite surprised that Dove Mountain was not a lot higher and I'm slightly disgusted that Bay Harbor made this or any list. Most of all, this list pointed out to me (a private club denizen) that we have a very deep resort course bench here in America. You could play nothing other than these courses all your life and be plenty happy with the diversity of play options.
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Terry,
Yes Pinehurst #4 is ranked 67th and #8 is ranked 84th. Also interesting that Old Mac is above Pebble. Perhaps the modern versus classic rating numbers are more comparable than we've been led to believe (i.e. in the best New list Old Mac got an 8.90 while in the top 100 classic Pebble is given 8.86, or perhaps they're simply comparing apples and oranges to compile this list)....
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How did El Niguel GC make it in at #20?
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One thing Golfweek has done that I fully support is the empowerment of husband/wife rater teams. Has anyone noticed an impact on the results because of this excellent forward thinking policy?
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Interesting, I would have thought Cascades would be a bit higher as well.
Mark
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Teton Pines or JH Golf and Tennis in Jackson Hole left out entirely? Two of the best and most scenic resort tracks around.
Hmmm.
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It's interesting that Cuscowilla is not on the list; I really liked it when I played it. Does it not qualify somehow?
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Perhaps the modern versus classic rating numbers are more comparable than we've been led to believe....
I got it from the horses mouth that they are NOT comparable.
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I understand that with lists such as these, the difference between #28 and #54 is negligible. That said, for those of you that have played both of the French Lick courses, which do you prefer? I've not played either, but the photos of the Ross appeal to me quite a bit more. Joe Bausch's photo tour of the Ross course was one of the best pictorials I've viewed on this site. I'm curious to hear how some of you have received the Dye course...
The Ross Course continues to be among the most underrated golf courses in the country. I would put it in the top 10 with some room to spare.
I haven't played the Dye course, so I can't compare the two.
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I find these interesting due to the GCA connection...
Pacific Dunes...Tom Doak
Old MacDonald...Tom Doak and Jim Urbina
Atlantic City CC...Tom Doak
Greenbriar (Old White)...Lester George
Wilderness at Fortune Bay...Jeff Brauer
Longbow Golf Club...John Ken Kavanaugh
If I missed any, please point them out.
Cool stuff!! Congrats!!
Had to look it up and I see Longbow is named as a "course of distinction." Which is fine except ... I have no idea how it qualifies as a resort course. Anyone have any ideas what their criteria for a "resort" course is?
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To the Ross vs Dye question. The Ross course is more fun by a factor of 5 to 1. Trying to drive the ball on the Dye course into a 17-20 yard wide fairway on 435+ yard long par fours with no miss left or right isn't much fun. It's certainly hard but not much else. Other than three very similar par threes on the Ross course, it is very interesting with excellent greens and shot variety. A must play if in the area.
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It's clear that Bandon will be considered the best golf resort. 8)
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I find these interesting due to the GCA connection...
Pacific Dunes...Tom Doak
Old MacDonald...Tom Doak and Jim Urbina
Atlantic City CC...Tom Doak
Greenbriar (Old White)...Lester George
Wilderness at Fortune Bay...Jeff Brauer
Longbow Golf Club...John Ken Kavanaugh
If I missed any, please point them out.
Cool stuff!! Congrats!!
Had to look it up and I see Longbow is named as a "course of distinction." Which is fine except ... I have no idea how it qualifies as a resort course. Anyone have any ideas what their criteria for a "resort" course is?
Can't help you - I played We Ko Pah two years ago and just now learned it was a resort.
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I find these interesting due to the GCA connection...
Pacific Dunes...Tom Doak
Old MacDonald...Tom Doak and Jim Urbina
Atlantic City CC...Tom Doak
Greenbriar (Old White)...Lester George
Wilderness at Fortune Bay...Jeff Brauer
Longbow Golf Club...John Ken Kavanaugh
If I missed any, please point them out.
Cool stuff!! Congrats!!
Had to look it up and I see Longbow is named as a "course of distinction." Which is fine except ... I have no idea how it qualifies as a resort course. Anyone have any ideas what their criteria for a "resort" course is?
Can't help you - I played We Ko Pah two years ago and just now learned it was a resort.
That i can at least understand, though it's a stretch. The courses there are owned by the Yavapai Nation and more or less a part of the Fort McDowell casino area, which now includes a Radisson. Thus, a resort.
Southn Dunes out in Maricopa is similar, though even more of a stretch. It's now owned by the Ak-Chin tribe, though the course isn't on the rez land. Technically it's a part of the same resort that the Whirlwind courses are, I guess.
Last I knew, longbow was owned by a real estate company, and there's no resort really anywhere near it.
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The last time I checked out the Bandon Dunes courses, in person, which was two or three years ago, I would not have called them a resort. A wonderful golf destination,Yes. But a resort, No. Just the way I look at things.
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Pine Needles is the one that jumps out as far to low.It is top ten to me and overcomes the real estate element.
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Odd definition of resort...checked the list on golfweek.com and Tobacco Road was there. Great clubhouse (small). No housing. No hotels. Yes, you can get a package thru the Pinehurst hotels but resort? Not really.
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Cougar Canyon is a fine layout -- it is not the 20th best resort in the USA.
That's a big time stretch -- you have others in CO that are a good bit better.
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Cougar Canyon is a fine layout -- it is not the 20th best resort in the USA.
That's a big time stretch -- you have others in CO that are a good bit better.
I haven't played Cougar Canyon, but how can it be close to Broadmoor East, which IMO is very under-rated at #79?
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Doug:
Bingo !!!!!!!
Cougar Canyon is not better than Broadmoor East -- heck, it's not even better than Four Mile Ranch or Lakota Canyon.
Big time error on Golfweek's part -- no doubt.
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Doug:
Bingo !!!!!!!
Cougar Canyon is not better than Broadmoor East -- heck, it's not even better than Four Mile Ranch or Lakota Canyon.
Big time error on Golfweek's part -- no doubt.
Not Lakota Canyon again. Ugh.
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Doug:
Bingo !!!!!!!
Cougar Canyon is not better than Broadmoor East -- heck, it's not even better than Four Mile Ranch or Lakota Canyon.
Big time error on Golfweek's part -- no doubt.
Not Lakota Canyon again. Ugh.
some guy dragged me out there to see that course...
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Jim:
Great retort !
I know your take on LCR -- too bad you have not played Four Mile Ranch.
The resort listing clearly has some interesting additions.
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I understand that with lists such as these, the difference between #28 and #54 is negligible. That said, for those of you that have played both of the French Lick courses, which do you prefer? I've not played either, but the photos of the Ross appeal to me quite a bit more. Joe Bausch's photo tour of the Ross course was one of the best pictorials I've viewed on this site. I'm curious to hear how some of you have received the Dye course...
The Ross is better IMO. Just played both of them about two months ago. The Ross wasn't in as good of shape but it was my favorite. They are installing a two mile long pipe from the fresh water lakes on the Dye course to the Ross so that they can better maintain the Ross course. I have never seen anything like some of the greens at the Ross course. I can't imagine playing them with any significant speed.
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Cougar Canyon is a fine layout -- it is not the 20th best resort in the USA.
That's a big time stretch -- you have others in CO that are a good bit better.
I haven't played Cougar Canyon, but how can it be close to Broadmoor East, which IMO is very under-rated at #79?
I don't think Cougar Canyon's placement is all that far off in this list. The course was far more interesting than I expected, including some blind shots that one doesn't normally see on a Nicklaus course (Chris Cochran was the lead I believe). I have it #2 public in Colorado behind only Lakota. I'm kind of surprised Cougar Canyon would be considered a resort, however. Broadmoor East could probably improve its position in my mind if it didn't keep the fairways at US Open width, but I would clearly favor Cougar Canyon anyway. Four Mile Ranch is a good one too, but I wouldn't have it as high as those other three.
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Andy, You are aware of who's routing they used?
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Perhaps the modern versus classic rating numbers are more comparable than we've been led to believe....
I got it from the horses mouth that they are NOT comparable.
Jim,
Well then it seems apparent that they're just slapping these things together to cobble together another issue with a bunch of ads from the resorts. Hate to think anyone goes to Whistling Straights over Pinehurst, for example, based on this list which doesn't compare courses based on the same criteria....
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Andy, You are aware of who's routing they used?
I'm not, but its a good one. Although it never fails to frustrate me why someone would put a pond on the 18th hole in a desert-like environment when there hasn't been a single water feature through the first 17 holes. Whisper Rock's Upper Course did the same thing, and it just looks odd. The rest is darn good.
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Andy:
You are a keen observer on many fronts but you are all wet on Cougar Canyon. It's a fine layout but not top 20 in the entire USA for all the resorts listed. Broadmoor is far superior and frankly there are a number of other public-only layouts that can easily challenge and surpass Cougar Canyon. Yes, the fairway widths could be wider but the overall routing and hole diversity clearly is there over the likes of Cougar Canyon.
Baxter Spann did much of the work that Adam alludes to and frankly the course is just one long slog for a number of the holes. There are spots where things pick up -- the holes on the higher terrain are clearly better but the shot differentiation and the diversity of the holes is fairly predictable. I like the short "island" par-3 on the back -- great concept in using the Pete Dye 17th at TPC / Sawgrass concept albeit with a western flair.
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Matt,
If I remember right, part of the disagreement is that the back tees are way back at CC with a huge gap (1000 yards+) to the next set, with the regular tees are more like 6500 yards. The course admittedly does provide more variety from further up than it would from 7600 yards--its tough to have short holes and get to that length. I'm not really that interested in the 7500+ yard tees at Cougar Canyon or anywhere else--no course would be fun for me at that length. From the other tees, the variety is good and the challenge still present. I saw far more variety there than at Broadmoor, where many of the holes blended together for me, especially on the RTJ holes from about 11-14 (give or take).
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Golfweek listed Pebble at #8 on the 2010 classic list. That may mean they rank Old Mac no worse than 10th in the nation overall. Not a bad way to come out of the starting blocks.
Doak has America's two top-ranked resort courses. Two of the top three moderns. Within a year or two, he may have seven or so on the world top 100. And I bet I'm not the only one more than a little curious to see how his new FL course turns out.
Really cool that guys like Tom and the other architects post on this DG!
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Golfweek listed Pebble at #8 on the 2010 classic list. That may mean they rank Old Mac no worse than 10th in the nation overall. Not a bad way to come out of the starting blocks.
Doak has America's two top-ranked resort courses. Two of the top three moderns. Within a year or two, he may have seven or so on the world top 100. And I bet I'm not the only one more than a little curious to see how his new FL course turns out.
Really cool that guys like Tom and the other architects post on this DG!
for sure!
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Andy:
Courses should be judged from ALL TEE BOXES -- the tips are part of the course.
Minus the par-3 16th I found CC to be relatively blah -- the land allowed for massive width and length fairways that really don't differentiate shotmaking -- they were done to handle the high winds that can whip up.
I see CC as a good course but the original layout was done by Baxter Spann and the Nicklaus team didn't really distinguish themselves there.
CO has a great array of courses and CC is not top 20 in all of the USA -- the folks who posted such high numbers really need to play some additional courses to get some meaingful perspective.
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Andy:
Courses should be judged from ALL TEE BOXES -- the tips are part of the course.
Minus the par-3 16th I found CC to be relatively blah -- the land allowed for massive width and length fairways that really don't differentiate shotmaking -- they were done to handle the high winds that can whip up.
I see CC as a good course but the original layout was done by Baxter Spann and the Nicklaus team didn't really distinguish themselves there.
CO has a great array of courses and CC is not top 20 in all of the USA -- the folks who posted such high numbers really need to play some additional courses to get some meaingful perspective.
I agree that the course should be judged by all tee boxes, but I don't think a particular course should be penalized for having one set of tee boxes being bad vs. the same exact course without those tee boxes at all, unless those tee boxes actually do interfere with the enjoyment of those who choose not to play from those boxes. If the course struggles from pace of play or walkability because of the existence of those tee boxes, that is one thing. Otherwise, the effect of a bad option that is still only an option should be nil.
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Justin:
A course that has a bad set of tees from tip usage is flawed and that flaw plays a role -- or should play a role -- in its overall assessment.
I have no idea on whether you have played CC but the course doesn't provide anything but increased distance from the tips. The land forms are fairly tame -- save for the fascinating par-3 16th hole -- and as a result it looks like "anywhere USA" design. Just as people on this site and elsewhere want to emphasize the playability dimension of the middle and forward tees -- the champ / tip tees should be equally evaluated and assessed accoringly in my mind.
Given the quality of so many top tier golf resorts here in the USA -- for CC to be rated among the top 20 is truly mindboggling indeed in my mind.
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Justin:
A course that has a bad set of tees from tip usage is flawed and that flaw plays a role -- or should play a role -- in its overall assessment.
I have no idea on whether you have played CC but the course doesn't provide anything but increased distance from the tips. The land forms are fairly tame -- save for the fascinating par-3 16th hole -- and as a result it looks like "anywhere USA" design. Just as people on this site and elsewhere want to emphasize the playability dimension of the middle and forward tees -- the champ / tip tees should be equally evaluated and assessed accoringly in my mind.
Given the quality of so many top tier golf resorts here in the USA -- for CC to be rated among the top 20 is truly mindboggling indeed in my mind.
I've never played CC and was making a general point. I just don't see your argument. If the bad set of tees are not played from, they don't play a role in how the course is enjoyed under any set of criteria. Unless the flaw is in encouraging people to play from those tips -- an argument that I don't really buy -- then the solution to a bad set of tees is just to ignore them. That's what an option is - its a choice.
It is also, in another view, sort of like college football recruiting. Should a 25 player recruiting class, with 2 5 star athletes, 18 4 star athletes and 5 2 star athletes, be ranked below a recruiting class that has 19 4 star athletes, because of the lower average star rating?
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Justin:
The scorecard lists the back tees and they are assigned a CR and slope. They are therefore in play and need to be assessed.
The idea that they can be ruled out as an inconsequential element is inane -- they have a role and need to be assessed accordingly.
I don't doubt many people should play from middle or frontal tees -- but a course needs to be seen through its total picture -- and that includes the back tee element.
Let me just add this -- the issue w CC is beyond this rather tiny and frankly irrelevant point. The course got spiked ratings to land it within the top 20 among all resorts and frankly the terrain and overall diversity of holes and routing don't just add up to that high a position in my mind. Heck, Colorado golf is that good and CC would be fortunate to garner a top 20 position when all courses are considered.