Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Kyle Henderson on October 24, 2010, 03:21:34 PM
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While only 6218 yards from the back tees, St. George’s Golf and Country Club
(East Setauket, NY) plays much longer than one would expect due to the rolling topography, especially when the wind blows. It also features a number of subtle humps and slopes in and around the putting surfaces to test even the best of short game players. The course’s only glaring weakness, to my eye, are the tight corridors and back and forth routing of holes 12-15.
Recent efforts to remove thousands of trees, eliminate cart paths, restore native grasses, recapture green surfaces, and refine mowing patterns by Superintendant extraordinaire Adam Jessie (with a master plan from Gil Hanse) have brought St. George’s to a level far above and beyond its tongue-in-cheek nickname, “Royal Bushwood.”
This is a hidden gem. Play it if you can.
Some images:
1st tee (par 4, 374yards)
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1320/5110918667_3a478f841e_b.jpg)
1st approach
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1355/5111519938_70fd917f3d_b.jpg)
2nd tee (par 5, 574 yards)
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1047/5110918889_65c7b4ba6b_b.jpg)
2nd landing zone
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4091/5110918999_c729c776b3_b.jpg)
3rd fairway (par 4, 408 yards)
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1412/5110919155_783068256c_b.jpg)
3rd looking back
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4149/5111520506_a3e69cd1f9_b.jpg)
4 approach (par 4, 360 yards)
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1143/5110919521_2c709eed10_b.jpg)
4 mounds (a very deep trench bunker sits between the mounds and green)
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1207/5111520888_d49feefebf_b.jpg)
4 from behind right
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4125/5110919991_9a8db66798_b.jpg)
5th (par 4, 356 yards)
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1054/5110920165_215e76363a_b.jpg)
5th from behind and right of green. Note tree stumps left to stabilize mammoth slopes.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4112/5111521492_7ba2c2e42e_b.jpg)
6th green from left side (par 5, 465 yards)
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4091/5110920597_c82ee7e901_b.jpg)
7th left side view (par 3,181 yards)
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1191/5110920833_159d4fa9b0_b.jpg)
8th landing zone (par 4, 382 yards, green is in shadow)
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1250/5111522080_ace797ed3b_b.jpg)
9 (par 3, 147 yards)
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1220/5111522316_faa0719b50_b.jpg)
10th green hard against Sheep Pasture Road (par 4, 380 yards)
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1264/5111522528_64f0b6bbed_b.jpg)
11th (par 3, 194 yards)
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1115/5111522750_9cd6b2b270_b.jpg)
12th looking back (par 4, 420 yards). More trees are pegged for removal in this section of the property, which remains a bit constricted at present.
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1149/5110921909_6e20187f99_b.jpg)
13th approach (par 4, 450 yards… into the wind on this day)
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1251/5111523182_45df0059de_b.jpg)
13th looking back at the amazing fairway contours.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4148/5110922323_fbd4ee6b6d_b.jpg)
14th (par 4, 388 yards)
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1437/5111523560_953a47e5cf_b.jpg)
15th (par 3,164 yards)
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4149/5111523758_ea010901c8_b.jpg)
16th approach (par 4, 318 yards)
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1372/5111523898_b6ca29fc9c_b.jpg)
17th (par 3, 122 yards)
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1230/5111524054_c9a708e0d1_b.jpg)
18th (par 5, 535 yards)
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1313/5111524152_08d2c0d7b5_b.jpg)
18th fairway bunkers
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1406/5110923239_43e7b34875_b.jpg)
Golf is great here.
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1407/5111159591_6f47f8ba31_b.jpg)
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Great pictures Kyle, it is a great hidden gem, deserves more recognition IMO. Was a blast to play, and the conditions were excellent. Adam Jessie and his crew have done a fantastic job there. The 10th hole is an insurance adjusters nightmare, but a fun golf hole...Still think they should paint the fence green and put the 380 sign on it, but I guess a green monster in NY wouldnt go over well...... :)
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Thank you, the pics look terrific. #2, 13, 15, 16 etc just look fantastic!! The course seems to "just have it". Thanks for educating me on what looks like another great couerse.
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Kyle,
Thanks for the photos and the description. I am in the camp of admirers. Do you have any pictures of the combined fairways on 2 and 18? The mowing patterns that they have employed are my favorite changes (although tree removal has been incredible as well)
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The idea of a hidden gem is misleading cliche; it's a way of covering up for the fact that the golfer or traveler in question has missed out and overlooked a course that was there all along to be admired. St. George's is a a brilliant example of artisanal work. I was stunned when I finally saw it and have written up an elegiacal account of the place, to be published soon (I trust) in Golfweek. What a wonderful layout -- a model for how simple and timeless golf can and should be.
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The idea of a hidden gem is misleading cliche; it's a way of covering up for the fact that the golfer or traveler in question has missed out and overlooked a course that was there all along to be admired.
Well, it was my first time in (or even near) the state of NY... ;)
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(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1149/5110921909_6e20187f99_b.jpg)
Just curious if Adam still post here if he has any original photos or diagrams of the original 12th. I always thought that hole could be really fun with the right bank (as you play the hole) shaved down to fairway length.
Great course with just a few warts keep it from being better known. Shocked it is only 6200ish yards as it plays 6600ish.
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If I told you the original clubhouse was located near the current 17th hole, and the yardages of the holes originally were as follows, could you figure out the original routing?!
1. 330
2. 420
3. 365
4. 165
5. 340
6. 110
7. 435
8. 280
9. 460
2905
10. 450
11. 385
12. 136
13. 370
14. 428
15. 266
16. 460
17. 181
18. 260
2936
for a total of 5841.
Later I'll post a figure I've put together with my stab at the original routing!
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It looks like a gem on some beautiful terrain! Thanks for posting the pictures!
Mark
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Kyle,
Thanks for the photos of this gorgeous course. The striking ensemble of par fours, so vintage and so fun to play, are one of the greatest sets of two shotters on the entire land mass of Long Island. Adam Jessie and his staff are doing a fantastic job with sensitive restoration. The strategic bunkering at Saint Georges is also exemplary. Emmet's talents are sometimes underrated
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From those photos, it looks like St. George's is proof that a course doesn't have to be long to be challenging. Or to be rewarding to play. Is the false front on No. 16 really as dire as it appears?
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From those photos, it looks like St. George's is proof that a course doesn't have to be long to be challenging. Or to be rewarding to play. Is the false front on No. 16 really as dire as it appears?
Yes. :)
This pic with normal size golfers nearby gives you an idea of the slope and distance changes.
(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/stgeorges/No16.jpg)
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St. George's opened in 1917 (don't have the exact date yet), but it was announced in the Daily Eagle on July 30, 1915 that a club was being formed:
(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/stgeorges/July30_1915_DailyEagle.jpg)
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In July of 1919 the Daily Eagle did a fairly extensive article on the recently opened course:
(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/stgeorges/July24_1919_DailyEagle.jpg)
It is a fun read and I'm curious as to the original routing. I believe there were a couple of clubhouse fires and I don't think the original routing is known for certain, if at all.
With the hole descriptions and yardages from the article, much of it I think it easy to piece together. But I'm not quite sure about certain areas, which are:
• Just how did the 18th hole run in 1919. I believe the road that divides the course changed at one point, so I'm just sort of guessing how that hole ran, thinking in terms of a short walk from the 17th green and the terrain as described. So I think it was basically a short par 4 playing to a green close to the current 11th green.
• I'm really struggling with how holes 8-10 in 1919 were located, which are essentially today's 1-3. The current 3rd hole is 408 yards long, but in 1919 (#10) it played 450. And the current par 5 2nd plays at 574, but in 1919 (#9) was shorter at 460. And the current 1st hole is a bit longer now (374) than as the 8th in 1919 (280 yards). Hence, I could be reaching here but I'm thinking maybe the original 8th hole ran in the current driving range, and the long original 9th played to a green since moved, and the tee box for the original 10th to be in a different location.
• Note that I think the current 18th hole, originally #7, played much shorter (435 yards) and the tee box for the par 3 not in danger!
See my diagrams below to help evaluate my work!
(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/stgeorges/1919_routing.jpg)
(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/stgeorges/current_routing.jpg)
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Joe,
Thanks. Holes 4,7,8 and 10 are pretty squeezed by the road. Makes me think the road was in a different position at some point in time.
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If you like quirk, you'll love St George's.
A few years ago I started a thread about St George's.
One hole in particular caught my attention.
The 4th hole (I believe) and its green complex with its deep fronting trench bunker, mounds and deep flanking and rear bunkers.
Many other holes were extremely UNIQUE.
A terrific course to have fun on and be challenged at the same time
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Good stuff there El Capitan. I still can't believe I left my camera in the car. Oh well...
Thanks Joe for sharing the potential routing changes. I did not know about this.
Couldn't agree more with Pat about the 4th. What a kick! Either Joe or Allan needs to post some shots of those two "trench warfare" fronting bunkers (first one being shallow while the second is deeper). A real flash back in time that plays well even today.
The 7th was also pretty damn fun and semi-blind on the approach.
A lot of blind shots from the tee or in approach mode with lots of character. Tee to green is tight and you often if not always get a chance to see ahead on what you will face on the following holes (e.g. 4th tee you get to see the 7th green, 8th tee and 10th green, etc.) I like that kind of anticipation and buildup for what lies ahead, especially given the blind approaches. A very sporting course is how I would describe St.George's. You cannot get bored here. Not possible.
The new found openess to the course adds another dimension for depth perception now and a fantastic example is the approach on the 13th. From the fairway you can not see the green, but there's the 17th green in the distance and it melds in perfectly with the 13th fairway to create complete deception in depth. Freaking brilliant and so creative. And what about that 17th? Devil of a hole.
Just a lot of solid holes throughout and one hell of a finishing hole in the 18th. Loved that roller coaster green.
To Mike's point about the cramping and the road, I want to say I heard the 12th fairway had something to do with the road, but Adam would probably be in a better position to confirm.
The before and after on this course is just mind boggling. What a transformation! What they've literally uncovered already and are now recovering (fairway width and green playing area) can only improve this course think.
Regarding course conditioning, for a course that plays some 20,000 rounds a year ... I was impressed in its shape. Excellent is how I'd describe it. Rock solid greens with optimal speeds as well. Adam and his assistant Tom are to be commended for doing a fine job considering the summer they've had. Also, the native areas tie in nicely, aren't overdone, and the shade of brown adds to the palate of colors I feel.
Mark and Mike point out a few things and I'll add the transition from the 17th to the 18th tee and the mesh fence as well. However, it's a necessity it appears. Sort of distraction ... like water ... but I could see how the regular member could get over this pretty easily.
How this course has been under the radar like this is beyond me.
I'm just glad I got the chance to experience my first Emmet at a place like St.George's.
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More on the 4th hole at St. George's, a 360 yard par 4.
The tee shot is blind:
(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/stgeorges/4a.jpg)
Once you scale the hill, in the distance you see the green and the mounding in front:
(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/stgeorges/4b.jpg)
From 150 yards out, maybe a suggestion of a bunker in front of the green:
(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/stgeorges/4c.jpg)
But from 50 yards one is coming into view:
(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/stgeorges/4d.jpg)
And from the left front part of the green you can see there are two bunkers, one 'high', and one 'low'. Quite a fortress!
(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/stgeorges/4e.jpg)
You can have some pretty interesting stances:
(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/stgeorges/4f.jpg)
Looking back to the FW:
(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/stgeorges/4g.jpg)
I remember the green being subtly contoured:
(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/stgeorges/4h.jpg)
And elevated as this shot from long and left shows:
(http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/stgeorges/4i.jpg)
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Joe,
Thanks. Holes 4,7,8 and 10 are pretty squeezed by the road. Makes me think the road was in a different position at some point in time.
Sheep Pasture Road used to run where the current 12th hole sits. One can see what used to be the front doors of the houses along the left side of the fairway.
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Joe,
Thanks for those pictures of the 4th hole.
They give the golfer an appreciation of the uniqueness of the green and green surrounds.
It's such a "sporty", enjoyable course.
It's a shame there aren't more like it.
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As cool as that 4th green is, I really get a kick out of this bunker in the 6th fairway that was there in '54 but gone by '61. At the time it looks like the hole played 450ish and this hazard was about 300 from the tee.
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1170/5119699556_54673d7f24_z.jpg)
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As cool as that 4th green is, I really get a kick out of this bunker in the 6th fairway that was there in '54 but gone by '61. At the time it looks like the hole played 450ish and this hazard was about 300 from the tee.
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1170/5119699556_54673d7f24_z.jpg)
The right portion of that bunker on 6 is still there in essence as a cluster of 3 smaller bunkers (see Joe's overheads), but one can run their drive through a gap on the left that measures around 1/3 of the total corridor width (or air mail them with a BIG hit).
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Kyle,
The bunkers that are there today look to be 30 yards short of the one in the '54 aerial.
Essentially the same, but different location.
Looks like a great place for a game.
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Kyle,
The bunkers that are there today look to be 30 yards short of the one in the '54 aerial.
Essentially the same, but different location.
Looks like a great place for a game.
Quite right. It would've taken quite a drive to reach the original bunker with hickories...
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I am thinking that those traps might have come into play on the 2nd shot, especially considering the fact that the prevailing wind is sw during the season (into the face of the drive)
on a separate note Gil Hanse was supposed to be out today building a bunker complex on the right side of 16, 4 more cedars bit the dust as part of this work the course gets better everday
I have some great before and after shots just cant get them to show up
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See my two-page rave review of St. George's in this coming issue (Nov. 19, 2010) of Golfweek. If/when it's posted on the Website I'll post the link here.
BSK
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Nice pictures - St. George's is a very interesting course. StG is a short distance from Devereux Emmet's estate on Stony Brook Harbor so I reckon this was his home club.
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Gil Hanse has been a GMGC in the last two weeks doing a small project and he said he is back again doing some work at St George's. I haven't been there in about three years but super Adam Jessie does a wonderful job with that course.
I can't remember at the moment the maiden name of Emmet's wife but I sort of recall her father pretty much owned that town. And I think her sister was married to someone who was significant in golf and architecture of that time.
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That would be Stanford White.
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...and she was a Smith. The Smith family owned a large chunk of Long Island going back to the 1600s.
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From what I have been told Emmet was married to a Smith. I did not know the information about 1600's, but the town of Smithtown was in relation to her family. Does anyone know if Emmet weathly on his own or did his wealth come from marrage?
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Kyle,
Looks like a very interesting and fun golf course, definitely worth a look whenever I get to Long Island.
Adam,
Looking at the aerial, how does the proximity of the tees on #17 & #18 play out day-to-day? It sure looks like the type of situation architects avoid, but often these "rule breakers" work fine on older tracks.
TK
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Kyle,
Looks like a very interesting and fun golf course, definitely worth a look whenever I get to Long Island.
Adam,
Looking at the aerial, how does the proximity of the tees on #17 & #18 play out day-to-day? It sure looks like the type of situation architects avoid, but often these "rule breakers" work fine on older tracks.
TK
Unfortunately, the 17th tees must be protected by an unsightly "batting cage" fence to repel badly pulled drives from the 18th tee.
I'm sure Adam can go into greater detail...
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I just read Brad's write-up in Golf Week and did a double take, then remembered where I'd heard of this track. If you receive golf week, check it out. If not, wait for the write-up to appear on line and take a peek. It is as impassioned a piece as I've read from the Professor.
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The fence which guards the 17th tee comes into play more than you would think. The fence has a lot damage from doing its job. I don't think that it should be there by any stretch but in this day of legal action there is not much talk of taking it down. There are several places on the course that could be considered as dangerous as this area but as Tyler Kerns said this is typical as most courses of this age. Gil and I have been trying several years to find a solution and there does not really seem to be a anything that is going to be accepted by the club. We have just finished a large bunker / fairway project on #16 this week and have a lot of projects planned for this winter that should continue to help improve the overall presentation of the course.
AJ
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Congratulations, Adam. Keep up the great work.
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Adam, I've figured it out -- how to get rid of that fence n 17 and still keep it safe. Gil agrees with me it might work. I'll even give you Plan "A" and Plan "B." Will also let folks know when the article is posted on Golfweek.com.
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"Does anyone know if Emmet weathly on his own or did his wealth come from marrage?"
Both
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Brad
I would love to hear that idea. mine is two-fold 1) drop the tee box a few ft, and establish a local rule, no teeing off on 18 when a group is on 17th tee; 2) for outings there are portable nets that are used by schools around shot put areas it could be taken up and down when necessary
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Mr. Faulkner,
The tee was raised roughly 4 feet in the 80's on the reccomendation of the USGA to help with a perpetually wet tee surface. There is not even a need for a local rule since it does not concern scoring. I agree with you it could be as simple as having a local courtesy that would require members to allow people on 18 to tee off before approaching the tee. then during outtings we could have one of the 6 rangers stationed on the tee box making people adhere to the courtesy.
AJ
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MarkC:
I believe one of the best ways to put Devereux Emmet into the proper perspective of his time and place is to very carefully consider what exactly was going on with him and his golf architecture from app. 1899 to about 1909 and very much his developing relationship with Charles Blair Macdonald (and NGLA) and both how and why that happened as it did. I very much feel the same could and should be said in this same time-frame for Walter Travis. And also to some degree in this same vein and time-frame with H.J. Whigam.
It occurs to me that many of us today just assume that in the early years of the first decade of the 20th century C.B. Macdonald was the strong and direct mentor to all three of them in and with golf architecture. I think the actual facts are somewhat different and a close examination of those years 1899 to about 1908 or so can and will show why.
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MarkC:
I believe one of the best ways to put Devereux Emmet into the proper perspective of his time and place is to very carefully consider what exactly was going on with him and his golf architecture from app. 1899 to about 1909 and very much his developing relationship with Charles Blair Macdonald (and NGLA) and both how and why that happened as it did. I very much feel the same could and should be said in this same time-frame for Walter Travis. And also to some degree in this same vein and time-frame with H.J. Whigam.
It occurs to me that many of us today just assume that in the early years of the first decade of the 20th century C.B. Macdonald was the strong and direct mentor to all three of them in and with golf architecture. I think the actual facts are somewhat different and a close examination of those years 1899 to about 1908 or so can and will show why.
What was going on with him and his architecture from 1899 to 1909?
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Nice seeing these photos of a wonderful golf course. I wish I could have seen the course before all of Adam's work, just so I could fully appreciate it. I'm really inspired to try to see more of Emmet's work.
The section of fence protecting the 17th tee is unfortunate, but I forgot about it rather quickly. Everything else looks so good, you don't focus on it for very long.
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Mr Jessie
Mr Falkner is my father. Do you think the raising of the tee was really necessary? Although that area is one of the high areas on the course I would think it would drain rather well, what kind of trees were in that area? Are the cedars on the right side of 3 long for this world?
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I took this shot of the 16th and 17th greens
these are two holes where birdie or double are always in play
http://www.flickr.com/photos/41262673@N08/5214036749/in/photostream/
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Nice seeing these photos of a wonderful golf course. I wish I could have seen the course before all of Adam's work, just so I could fully appreciate it.
John, visiting Historicaerials.com might be a good start.
I'm really inspired to try to see more of Emmet's work.
The section of fence protecting the 17th tee is unfortunate, but I forgot about it rather quickly. Everything else looks so good, you don't focus on it for very long.
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Dave,
Thanks for the photo.
St George's is a wonderful course, the kind of course this group would love, quirky and fun.
Who knows, maybe I'll venture to LI for a GCA.com get together
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Im working on getting a bunch of before shots
I would love to host a few guys anytime
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My latest Raters Notebook, on St. George's G&CC, is now posted on the Golfweek Web site:
http://www.golfweek.com/news/golf-travel/raters-notebook/
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My latest Raters Notebook, on St. George's G&CC, is now posted on the Golfweek Web site:
http://www.golfweek.com/news/golf-travel/raters-notebook/
A great review, Brad. I take it the overall score is not an average of the other marks given...
Hopefully, the positive attention will bolster the continued efforts of Mr. Jessie and Mr. Hanse.
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My latest Raters Notebook, on St. George's G&CC, is now posted on the Golfweek Web site:
http://www.golfweek.com/news/golf-travel/raters-notebook/
Brad,
Terrific write up, it captures St George's quite succinctly.
I too fell in love with # 4 and the course in general.
I could play it every day and never tire of it.
It's the kind of course where you want to go directly from the 18th green to the 1st tee.
Coincidently, when I was last in Florida I ran into a fellow who used to caddy with you on tour.
At the present, his name escapes me, but, it will come to me, probably in the middle of the night.
Speaking of Caddying. When I was playing at Trump in WPB, I was on the practice tee hitting balls before my round.
Donald Trump was hitting balls next to me and engaged in a conversation with three caddies, two staffers and another fellow.
The caddies were maintaining that caddying makes you a better golfer.
Because of my proximity to the discussion, I couldn't help but overhear the entire conversation.
Finally, Donald said, "So you really think that caddying makes you a better player?"
The caddies all said, "absolutely" to which I turned around and said, "Donald, do you want to loop for me today ?"
Everyone, well almost everyone laughed.
Noting the look on his face, I then said, "Don't worry, you'll make out OK, I'm a good tipper"
Again, almost everyone laughed.
When we got in for lunch we had a very pleasant conversation.
I complimented him on the condition of the course.
The greens were absolutely terrific, fast, firm and true, and the fairways were also in terrific playing condition.
For the regular golfer the course is user friendly with only a few carries that might be deemed challenging.
Once you get past the "water works" the course is quite enjoyable for all levels of golfers, from 12 year olds to guys on Medicare.
He was very engaging and very gracious.
He complimented my son on a number of things and couldn't have been nicer to both of us.
He observed that I said "hello" to about a dozen members including two that were playing with him and asked if I was a member.
I said, "no, just a guest". To which he said, "well thanks for coming"
They recently replanted the grass on the practice tee and he was very pleased with the condition of the turf as it related to iron play.
I have to say that he runs a terrific operation, with great attention to detail, and that all of the employees I spoke to were very complimentary in terms of their working relationship with him.
I think he genuinely loves golf and is trying to improve each of his golf facilities.
I think he's very different, one on one, from the persona that comes across on TV
He was incredibly gracious, hospitable and kind.
I think he'd be fun to play with, provided no TV cameras were allowed. ;D
Sorry to get off on a side track
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I've re-built my photo album of St. George's using pictures from two different fall visits. You will likely enjoy this very much:
http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/stgeorges/
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Thanks for the link to your photos of St. George's, Joe. Much appreciated.
What a fascinating golf course.